9 months on from the initial discussion - there is some advice from a real expert. Important takeaways: -As Ed S has been pioneering and his work was referenced in Valdemar's video - if you are concerned about the ACCURACY of your amp sim plugin (or wondering why your AC30 sim sounds like a Dual Rectifier - there is great reason to calibrate your input -Valdemar is full in step with that (which was the whole thrust of our discussion in any case) -Valdemar's recommended steps - 1) Set your Input to 0db 2) CALIBRATE YOUR PLUGIN ACCORDING TO THE SPECS IN ED'S SPREADSHEET (to ensure accuracy) 3) Add Gain on your interface to below clipping (this may not be necessary for MANY people) 4) Reduce the input gain in the plugin by the amount that you've added on the knob
Yeah, this guy just got a really crappy interface that has loads of noise to create a video saying everyone was wrong to set gain to zero. A video that would have been better titled 'why is Behringer kit so cheap?' Gain on zero works and won't create loads of noise for many interfaces (the pod XT doesn't even have a gain knob and it's not noisy dunno about the newer line 6 boxes that double as audio interfaces whether they've added a gain knob - if not, well they are all on zero too) But (of course) putting interface input gain higher and lowering input gain on the plugin works too. The key thing is what the input gain for each plugin should be relative to the gain on zero for your particular interface that the spreadsheet provided.
@@johnnathancordy Fair enough. I have an alesis io 2 that I might have a play with later (because that does have a gain control) I figured the 'gain on zero, input gain value from this spreadsheet' was about keeping the instructions simple and only having to change the input gain on each plugin. One problem I see with setting the input gain 'just below clipping' is that can vary from guitar to guitar. So you might end up having to configure every time you swap guitars? If that were the case maybe getting your highest output guitar so it doesn't clip would work - even if the signal to noise is slightly higher for some lower output guitars?
@@michael1Yes, that's the misleading part of his video. He actually commented on his own video (in the comments section) "admitting that he cheated a bit" just to make a point. He used the example with crappiest interface and gain knobs on the plugin maxed out, just to prove someone can reduce the noise floor and have and audible proof. For most of decent interfaces in 2024, the reduction in noise floor would be inaudible. So, in my opinion, there's no point changing the setting (because you have to do this process for all the guitars some is using) to get a 1 dB reduction of noise floor.
The problem is as old as musical instruments themselves…the engineer designing the tool and writing the instructions doesn’t necessarily know the goal of the artist using the tool/instrument. Really well said with humility and honesty. There’s no reason to apologize for getting an important (to us musicians anyway) discussion started. I always enjoy your video! Keep up the great work!
@JasonSadites response is a great addition to this conversation. In addition to a lack of standards, the other issue is a lack of manufacturer documentation combined with differing approaches applied by third parties who sell captures. A consortium to develop some standards would be a very good thing.
The method of inputting 0 gain works well for me, and then adjusting the amp sim input as needed. The amps sims are very accurate sounding to my ears. I tried the method described by the electrical engineer and found it problematic. That was my experience anyway. I don’t think this discussion is over…
Ultimately what we need is an audio interfaces input to be identical to the input jack on a real amplifier and everything after that point to be the software plugin.
You get that, if you set the input level of the A/D-Interface so that at maximum level you stay in the green/yellow level range and after you ONCE set in plug-in input level correctly, so that at maximum input signal, you still have quite a bit of input headroom. Around 12-16dB should usually work fine.
So glad you’re talking about this! I started messing with digital recording in DAWs a few years ago and everything is confusing, requiring hours of tweaks and experiments to get things sounding good. Appreciate the clarity here, now I can solidly blame the lack of views my videos get on my playing, not the tone. 😂
I've been using a combination of these methods for a while, mostly because I got fed up of having to adjust Neurals input gain everytime I switch between presets. With the specs of my interface I need to add 6.9dbu to get in the ball park so I just add that at the interface instead and leave it. It's not "optimum" re noise floor but it works and I'm far enough away from clipping I don't have to worry. Now I can flick between presets without worrying about input gain on the plugin.
I commented on his video, but basically nobody answered me. It looks like he doesn't have INST mode activated on his interface. So no wonder the 0 gain doesn't work. The pad and inst buttons both seems to be not pressed or at least on same level. So either he has pad on or inst off. Hard to see, but it would be great to tell your setup when telling everyone how wrong they are.
Greetings, I congratulate you, you did not fall into the ego trap, I know of other people who were offended because they were mentioned on another channel. Thank you for the information you give us and continue to be humble.
I'm glad the topic is being discussed from a plugin/hardware designers point of view because ultimately they're the ones that are best placed to engineer the solution!
The best solution would, that the plug-in manufacturers mark an input level in the plug-in which is used as a reference for "normal" chord playing. Also not precise, but a good starting point.
The Audio Assault Amp Locker platform has a calibration routine built into it, and the base version is free. If you're trying to measure gain changes based on the audio interface volume, making use of that would be even easier than loading volume measurement plugins etc
It is really weird that a company like Neural DSP makes a 60 min comedy movie with an IMDB rating of 3.5/10 for a product they are about to release which is basically the same product they released before but smaller, but dont bother to clarify this argument with a 3 min video.
I watched both videos and am an engineer ;) The idea is that your audio interface translates analog into digital and it has a fixed number of bits to do it. You want to use as much of those bits and fill them with signal as possible. That will lower the signal to noise ratio. The noise will be filling the 'least significant bits', so the more your signal sticks out into the 'most significant bits' the better of you are. I tried it with a 3rd gen Focusrite 18i20 and found the same as you describe: with humbuckers you won't be able to add too much gain before clipping if you really dig into your strings hard. So setting the input gain to zero is pretty close to ideal / good enough. If you play (say) a strat exclusively, then you can improve your signal to noise quite a bit. Checking with a level meter in your DAW, say you add 8 dB of boost from your interface before AD conversion, then scale down the (digital) input gain with the same amount and you should be done. Now if you interchange humbuckers with single coils regularly while using the same presets, this becomes unpractical (if your humbuckers clip). I find that leaving the interface at zero works well enough.
That's actually just one part of the video, the other much more impactful part of the discussion was what Valdemar was totally agreeing on, which is that there is a necessity (and thanks to Ed S a method) to calibrate your audio interface/amp sim if you're trying to get anywhere close to "accuracy". That's the part that is getting left behind in the discussion of signal to noise
@@johnnathancordy That should not be a problem, you got 5 stages to adjust the input level, if you use the plugin in your DAW. If you set the input on your interface as low as possible, you gain all the noise of the preamp in the interface, so it is better to set this level to a decent volume without clipping the preamp. I set the volume in the plugin using the input level and then I set the gain and the output of the "amp" to create the sound I want. After that you can correct the output level again in the plugin without influencing the sound. Conclusion: trust your ears.
@@johnnathancordy this is absolutely true but if at the end of the day are we to be more concerned with the accurate representation per the plugin manufacturer or do we just want it to sound how we want our preset to sound with the least amount of noise floor? I agree with you and will probably use the gain meter pre the plugin to match unity but I still really just want it to sound good to my ears rather than what the manufacturer considers it should like at any particular gain (input) level.
That's a fine approach to take, but I think it would be better to be making those decisions from an informed position rather than just because plugin manufacturers haven't tried to help their consumer base
Rocking an RME with +13dBu with gain at 0 and there's been no SnR issues. Ed's coverage of the topic has benefitted tons of people including myself, and old mates video was thumbnailed and titled pretty clickbait and dismissive to all the work thats been put into this... especially when he's piggybacking the same process and bolting on a caveat for "the worst" interface he could find. So yeah there's 2 issues alright, it just turns out than in the real world leaving your gain at 0 with most modern interfaces is going to be fine... the second is only an issue if you have an incredibly noisy interface.
Yeah, I mean he admitted he picked a bad interface in the comments but the premise of the video seems pretty disingenuous to me. "I'm right and you're all wrong (but caveat read the small print)"
This, unless your interface is utterly trash the noise from the pickups of your guitar is going to be so much worse than any noise the instrument input can generate. And with 24bit AD converters you have enough resolution to record your guitar at minimum input levels. The key here is consistency and calibration, and having to tweak things every time you change guitars doesn’t sound practical at all. Hopefully in the future plugin devs will provide reference values for calibration, I recently contacted a company and the failed to provide any useful information (and it wasn’t IK Multimedia)
@@yacreader Yeah certainly for my setup the big issue with noise is if I have the pickups pointing towards the computer - although I use an interface that doesn't have a gain knob anyway
@@michael1 I also get periodic wicked EMI that’s out of my control. Bertom denoiser is an absolute champion at knocking that stuff down (and there’s a free version)
You are missing the point: When you did your math homework wrong but somehow got the correct result your teacher would still point out the mistakes you made despite the result. What this new guy did is point out that 0dB of input gain on the interface is a starting point and that it can work fine for most, but that the logic behind setting that value and why was flawed.
GhostNoteAudio’s “everyone else is wrong” explanation is technically right but seems to over-optimize in one particular aspect that doesn’t make such a big difference with modern decent interfaces (note that he used the worst one he could find to illustrate his point), and can go in detriment of workflow as Jason Sadites well described on his response. As you showed, noise floor from audio interfaces is probably lower than the noise from your guitar pickups, so if you are using so much gain that it becomes an issue, you probably want a noise gate in your plugin or plugin chain anyways. Btw, if you still want to follow his approach, measuring how much gain was added by banging on the guitar as loud as possible is probably close enough, but not really precise (surprising coming from someone with such claims about math and science). An easy way to achieve consistency is to play the guitar into a looper pedal set at unity gain, and play that recording into the interface at the different input gain levels you want to compare. If you want to be super precise, you may even record two samples, align them perfectly, phase invert one and adjust level in one until they practically cancel out, and take note of how much adjustment was needed. This is better done on the DI signal without any amp plugin enabled, as they could produce slightly different outputs for the same input, so wont cancel out fully
@@johnnathancordy sure, if you have something to generate it, can be better. But guitar into looper pedal seems easy and precise enough, and if you hit it hard, then you can use the same loop both for setting the analog gain in the interface and to measure how much gain was added (take a recording of the loop first at 0 gain, then another one after adjusting).
@@johnnathancordy Hey John, thanks for all the hard work; us old 'geezer rockers', as my kid calls me, lol, I'm 68, We used 'pink noise' as the best tool. When setting unity gain on audio equipment, pink noise is generally preferred over white noise because it provides a more balanced representation across the frequency spectrum, making it easier to accurately adjust the gain at different frequencies. We set up our sound system before every gig to eq the room, I'm wondering if a pink noise generator would give you a more accurate representation on the frequency response at unity gain...... Cheers, ✌☮
I completely agree with the conclusion that GhostNoteAudio's approach is actually the correct way to set your levels to achieve the correct level into the plug-in (so it behaves as it should) while optimizing for SNR in the interface. In practice it optimizing the SNR has little benefit and so IF it complicates your workflow it is perfectly reasonable to just set your interface gain to minimum and be happy not having absolute optimal SNR at the D/A converter.
It made the presets made by other people sound better - they always sounded awful when I turned the gain up on the audio interface which I had previously been used to. Helix Native sounds better now since all this zero on the interface stuff.
Glad this guy made this video. Setting the gain to zero is a bad idea. Your best SNR ratio is at maximum gain. I think all plugin vendors should mimic Overloud THU. In their plugin they provide a color graded meter indicating their expected input level and a knob to increase/reduce this level at plugin input. With this, you only need two steps: increase the gain on the interface just below clipping level, and then increase/decrease the input level in the plugin according to the meter "good" input zone.
If you work through the logic of that, the advice would lead to this conclusion: Stratocaster with low output pickups and a headless Strandberg with Fishman Fluences hitting the same peak. Signal to Noise wasn't what the initial discussion was about; calibrating input levels according to various audio interface specifications and the calibrated input level that various plugins are designed to be used at is actually far more impactful and the whole reason that for so many of us plugins never sounded anything like what they should have.
I think all this is telling us is….. there’s more than 1 way to set things up and a lot depends on what equipment you have, what you want to do and how you want it all to work together. I think it’s also worth watching the Jason Sadites video on this topic.
The only option I have to reduce levels into the interface is using a DI as the guitar is already close to clipping at 0db on the interface. That or use a buffered pedal which is strange as interface claims to match impedance.
Really awesome response video! 🙂 After all of this discussion, I will absolutely tell you that, sometimes setting your gain to its lowest settings will be "Just Fine"🙂 - The problem that had arisen was that people were taking this advice, which is a great shortcut to getting decent results, and claiming it was the *optimal* method of adjusting things. The factors that make the biggest difference are; 1. if you are using a weak output pickup (or if you roll off the volume, like you showed). 2. if your interface has an unusually high instrument input level (meaning you need a stronger signal to drive it to full peak value). 3. If your interface has a lot of self noise. 4. if you're using very high gain ampsims. In my demo, pretty much all of these elements were involved, and that shows the absolute worst case scenario that can occur. Just as an aside, I know Steve Atkinson, creator of Neural Amp Modeler, has just announced some new features in NAM that will make calibrating input gain much easier, he's got some really clever thoughts on the process that we should be seeing in a future update!
Watched ghostnotes video several times last night. Watched Rhett's the night before. I stumbled into these videos searching for feedback on who has the best software... I did try ghostnotes method earlier this morning. He includes to say you should increase the output of the plug-in by ED S worksheet, before you reduce it. So ultimately you do reduce it, but not before utilizing ED S worksheet. If I followed that correctly.
You'd readjust the input gain on the plugin to account for the amount of gain you're adding from the volume knob (in many cases with many interfaces this step might not be necessary at all)
I wonder if the guy from Scuffham s gear plug in would have some insight into this topic. That is a great plugin if you have never heard of it. I’d like to see you reach out to him. Thanks
I use both analogue setups and modelling setups. I kind get it, but also don’t get it about people’s obsession with nitpicking about noise with digital modelling setups. I guess I’d understand why someone who has only ever used modelling might expect some kind of perfect, final-production, processed quality in their real-time playing sound, but if someone has ever used and dealt with all the imperfections inherent in tube gear, why should the sound of digital plugins *have to be* flawless? Not taking a poke at Johnathan, just don’t get the attitude of people in general on the issue.
I have like 20 valve amps, and I WANT the plugins to behave like those do. The plugins are models of specific amps, and I want them to sound and behave like what I’m familiar with. Given that it takes me about 1 second to adjust the input knob, I don’t see what the downside is?
Is the core problem for plugins requiring these additonal steps & considerations by guitarists that plugin manufacturers aren't actually using real guitars into an audio interface as standard when testing & completing their plugin designs?
I think it's mostly because the audio interface manufacturers don't have any recognised or accepted standard to work towards on this, so you get natural variation in specs?
@@johnnathancordy Good point but I would then expect sales to demand full disclosure of testing & recording conditions -- e.g., 2022 Les Paul Studio guitar into a Focusrite Scarlett, etc. -- to maximize positive first impressions rather than a generic statement to avoid clipping the first gain stage of the signal path & then waving goodbye...unless their target audience is trained & experienced audio engineers not all us dickheads in the bedroom. At the same time nobody is getting physically harmed by the tech here so maybe sales is just enjoying the show..?
On reflection maybe manufacturer coyness is warranted given your fuzzface solo argument at the end of the video -- where not just the guitar volume knob but both pick attack & string stop location can vary the distorted tone thru input volume differences such that it heightens interest from the listener. Hendrix' Voodoo Child (Slight Return) may be the OG example there but the use of wah, occasional Leslie effect & studio reverb variations do make it harder to focus on just that.
I find strange people use this weird "paint by numbers" approach with amp plugins when *you'd set your gain by ear with a real amp.* You make music with your ears, not with your eyes. Use your ears.
I think it's an important addition to the discussion - if for nothing else it's good to hear the main point that Ed S, David Beebee and myself had been saying that there is a real issue to discuss around the maximum input level of interfaces and a need to calibrate.
@@johnnathancordy I agree. I've always used real amps and mics so I'm just at the beginning of my plugin journey. Having knowledgeable folks get this sorted is a real advantage for the rest of us. Thanks! I enjoy your vids
@@rigorhead01 I'm hoping the plugin companies and audio interface manufacturers are able to fill in the gaps as it as basically been up to Ed S to try and make sense of this - so hopefully the overall thrust of Valdemar's video which in the main totally validates what Ed has been saying all along is not lost
For those that are too slow. Interface input gain is the same as optical zoom for cameras and input gain in software is like digital zoom. And no this is not complex issue unless you have problems to observe and put 1 + 1 together.
In the quest to oversimplify what is not a simple problem, I think most of this stuff is being misinterpreted. 1) Audio interfaces have a variable maximum input level 2) Plugin manufacturers have a variable calibration input level One part of the discussion is about trying to match your audio interface to that calibration input level. The other part of the discussion is about signal to noise ratio, which I think most folks have a bit of a better grasp on
@@benjaminashlinyes... Original comment is inaccurate. Digital gain is transparent more like optical zoom while analog gain has the potential to increase noise floor and alter the signal like digital zoom.
That's actually exactly the advice that was given by Neural DSP, Line 6, and countless others prior to this discussion. It's still the advice that is being given in Step 3 of Valdemar's approach (the new piece of advice alongside that is to then reduce in the digital domain by whatever you added on the front of the interface)
Right below clipping whilst playing your loudest is the advice, this is subtley different from running right below clipping. And it would create more noise if you didn't compensate in your plugin (which is exactly what is advised).
Adjust to taste has no place in discussions of accuracy when the whole point of the Neural DSP plugin world is about ACCURACY. These are plugins that are based on real world pieces of gear, and what we do at the input gain stage is about the most important factor in determining whether your AC30 sounds like an AC30 or a Dual Rectifier.
@@johnnathancordy Another important aspect is portability, if you create a preset it won’t sound the same in my computer unless we both are using the same calibration, and I think we all have found presets (or captures) claiming to be clean that sounded completely overdriven and the other way around. I think we all should be in the same page.
If you adjust to taste and every setting sounds bad you will blame the plugin when you might have been making huge mistakes in the gain staging going into it
9 months on from the initial discussion - there is some advice from a real expert. Important takeaways:
-As Ed S has been pioneering and his work was referenced in Valdemar's video - if you are concerned about the ACCURACY of your amp sim plugin (or wondering why your AC30 sim sounds like a Dual Rectifier - there is great reason to calibrate your input
-Valdemar is full in step with that (which was the whole thrust of our discussion in any case)
-Valdemar's recommended steps - 1) Set your Input to 0db 2) CALIBRATE YOUR PLUGIN ACCORDING TO THE SPECS IN ED'S SPREADSHEET (to ensure accuracy) 3) Add Gain on your interface to below clipping (this may not be necessary for MANY people) 4) Reduce the input gain in the plugin by the amount that you've added on the knob
Yeah, this guy just got a really crappy interface that has loads of noise to create a video saying everyone was wrong to set gain to zero. A video that would have been better titled 'why is Behringer kit so cheap?' Gain on zero works and won't create loads of noise for many interfaces (the pod XT doesn't even have a gain knob and it's not noisy dunno about the newer line 6 boxes that double as audio interfaces whether they've added a gain knob - if not, well they are all on zero too)
But (of course) putting interface input gain higher and lowering input gain on the plugin works too. The key thing is what the input gain for each plugin should be relative to the gain on zero for your particular interface that the spreadsheet provided.
To be fair, my interface has a shit noisefloor too, so maybe he was literally making the video for me haha
@@johnnathancordy Fair enough. I have an alesis io 2 that I might have a play with later (because that does have a gain control) I figured the 'gain on zero, input gain value from this spreadsheet' was about keeping the instructions simple and only having to change the input gain on each plugin.
One problem I see with setting the input gain 'just below clipping' is that can vary from guitar to guitar. So you might end up having to configure every time you swap guitars? If that were the case maybe getting your highest output guitar so it doesn't clip would work - even if the signal to noise is slightly higher for some lower output guitars?
@@michael1Yes, that's the misleading part of his video. He actually commented on his own video (in the comments section) "admitting that he cheated a bit" just to make a point.
He used the example with crappiest interface and gain knobs on the plugin maxed out, just to prove someone can reduce the noise floor and have and audible proof.
For most of decent interfaces in 2024, the reduction in noise floor would be inaudible.
So, in my opinion, there's no point changing the setting (because you have to do this process for all the guitars some is using) to get a 1 dB reduction of noise floor.
The problem is as old as musical instruments themselves…the engineer designing the tool and writing the instructions doesn’t necessarily know the goal of the artist using the tool/instrument.
Really well said with humility and honesty. There’s no reason to apologize for getting an important (to us musicians anyway) discussion started. I always enjoy your video! Keep up the great work!
@JasonSadites response is a great addition to this conversation. In addition to a lack of standards, the other issue is a lack of manufacturer documentation combined with differing approaches applied by third parties who sell captures. A consortium to develop some standards would be a very good thing.
"a dickhead in the bedroom", "my wife will tell you just as much" - this killed me haha
The method of inputting 0 gain works well for me, and then adjusting the amp sim input as needed. The amps sims are very accurate sounding to my ears. I tried the method described by the electrical engineer and found it problematic. That was my experience anyway. I don’t think this discussion is over…
Ultimately what we need is an audio interfaces input to be identical to the input jack on a real amplifier and everything after that point to be the software plugin.
You get that, if you set the input level of the A/D-Interface so that at maximum level you stay in the green/yellow level range and after you ONCE set in plug-in input level correctly, so that at maximum input signal, you still have quite a bit of input headroom. Around 12-16dB should usually work fine.
So glad you’re talking about this! I started messing with digital recording in DAWs a few years ago and everything is confusing, requiring hours of tweaks and experiments to get things sounding good. Appreciate the clarity here, now I can solidly blame the lack of views my videos get on my playing, not the tone. 😂
I've been using a combination of these methods for a while, mostly because I got fed up of having to adjust Neurals input gain everytime I switch between presets. With the specs of my interface I need to add 6.9dbu to get in the ball park so I just add that at the interface instead and leave it. It's not "optimum" re noise floor but it works and I'm far enough away from clipping I don't have to worry. Now I can flick between presets without worrying about input gain on the plugin.
I commented on his video, but basically nobody answered me. It looks like he doesn't have INST mode activated on his interface. So no wonder the 0 gain doesn't work.
The pad and inst buttons both seems to be not pressed or at least on same level. So either he has pad on or inst off. Hard to see, but it would be great to tell your setup when telling everyone how wrong they are.
Greetings, I congratulate you, you did not fall into the ego trap, I know of other people who were offended because they were mentioned on another channel. Thank you for the information you give us and continue to be humble.
I'm glad the topic is being discussed from a plugin/hardware designers point of view because ultimately they're the ones that are best placed to engineer the solution!
The best solution would, that the plug-in manufacturers mark an input level in the plug-in which is used as a reference for "normal" chord playing. Also not precise, but a good starting point.
The Audio Assault Amp Locker platform has a calibration routine built into it, and the base version is free. If you're trying to measure gain changes based on the audio interface volume, making use of that would be even easier than loading volume measurement plugins etc
It is really weird that a company like Neural DSP makes a 60 min comedy movie with an IMDB rating of 3.5/10 for a product they are about to release which is basically the same product they released before but smaller, but dont bother to clarify this argument with a 3 min video.
I watched both videos and am an engineer ;) The idea is that your audio interface translates analog into digital and it has a fixed number of bits to do it. You want to use as much of those bits and fill them with signal as possible. That will lower the signal to noise ratio. The noise will be filling the 'least significant bits', so the more your signal sticks out into the 'most significant bits' the better of you are.
I tried it with a 3rd gen Focusrite 18i20 and found the same as you describe: with humbuckers you won't be able to add too much gain before clipping if you really dig into your strings hard. So setting the input gain to zero is pretty close to ideal / good enough.
If you play (say) a strat exclusively, then you can improve your signal to noise quite a bit. Checking with a level meter in your DAW, say you add 8 dB of boost from your interface before AD conversion, then scale down the (digital) input gain with the same amount and you should be done.
Now if you interchange humbuckers with single coils regularly while using the same presets, this becomes unpractical (if your humbuckers clip). I find that leaving the interface at zero works well enough.
That's actually just one part of the video, the other much more impactful part of the discussion was what Valdemar was totally agreeing on, which is that there is a necessity (and thanks to Ed S a method) to calibrate your audio interface/amp sim if you're trying to get anywhere close to "accuracy".
That's the part that is getting left behind in the discussion of signal to noise
@@johnnathancordy That should not be a problem, you got 5 stages to adjust the input level, if you use the plugin in your DAW. If you set the input on your interface as low as possible, you gain all the noise of the preamp in the interface, so it is better to set this level to a decent volume without clipping the preamp. I set the volume in the plugin using the input level and then I set the gain and the output of the "amp" to create the sound I want. After that you can correct the output level again in the plugin without influencing the sound. Conclusion: trust your ears.
I saw his video yesterday. At this point I think we all need to just follow our ears - which is kind of where we all started. Idk
Following our ears doesn't really answer anything around accuracy?
@@johnnathancordy this is absolutely true but if at the end of the day are we to be more concerned with the accurate representation per the plugin manufacturer or do we just want it to sound how we want our preset to sound with the least amount of noise floor? I agree with you and will probably use the gain meter pre the plugin to match unity but I still really just want it to sound good to my ears rather than what the manufacturer considers it should like at any particular gain (input) level.
That's a fine approach to take, but I think it would be better to be making those decisions from an informed position rather than just because plugin manufacturers haven't tried to help their consumer base
Rocking an RME with +13dBu with gain at 0 and there's been no SnR issues. Ed's coverage of the topic has benefitted tons of people including myself, and old mates video was thumbnailed and titled pretty clickbait and dismissive to all the work thats been put into this... especially when he's piggybacking the same process and bolting on a caveat for "the worst" interface he could find.
So yeah there's 2 issues alright, it just turns out than in the real world leaving your gain at 0 with most modern interfaces is going to be fine... the second is only an issue if you have an incredibly noisy interface.
Yeah, I mean he admitted he picked a bad interface in the comments but the premise of the video seems pretty disingenuous to me. "I'm right and you're all wrong (but caveat read the small print)"
This, unless your interface is utterly trash the noise from the pickups of your guitar is going to be so much worse than any noise the instrument input can generate. And with 24bit AD converters you have enough resolution to record your guitar at minimum input levels. The key here is consistency and calibration, and having to tweak things every time you change guitars doesn’t sound practical at all. Hopefully in the future plugin devs will provide reference values for calibration, I recently contacted a company and the failed to provide any useful information (and it wasn’t IK Multimedia)
@@yacreader Yeah certainly for my setup the big issue with noise is if I have the pickups pointing towards the computer - although I use an interface that doesn't have a gain knob anyway
@@michael1 I also get periodic wicked EMI that’s out of my control. Bertom denoiser is an absolute champion at knocking that stuff down (and there’s a free version)
You are missing the point: When you did your math homework wrong but somehow got the correct result your teacher would still point out the mistakes you made despite the result. What this new guy did is point out that 0dB of input gain on the interface is a starting point and that it can work fine for most, but that the logic behind setting that value and why was flawed.
GhostNoteAudio’s “everyone else is wrong” explanation is technically right but seems to over-optimize in one particular aspect that doesn’t make such a big difference with modern decent interfaces (note that he used the worst one he could find to illustrate his point), and can go in detriment of workflow as Jason Sadites well described on his response. As you showed, noise floor from audio interfaces is probably lower than the noise from your guitar pickups, so if you are using so much gain that it becomes an issue, you probably want a noise gate in your plugin or plugin chain anyways.
Btw, if you still want to follow his approach, measuring how much gain was added by banging on the guitar as loud as possible is probably close enough, but not really precise (surprising coming from someone with such claims about math and science). An easy way to achieve consistency is to play the guitar into a looper pedal set at unity gain, and play that recording into the interface at the different input gain levels you want to compare. If you want to be super precise, you may even record two samples, align them perfectly, phase invert one and adjust level in one until they practically cancel out, and take note of how much adjustment was needed. This is better done on the DI signal without any amp plugin enabled, as they could produce slightly different outputs for the same input, so wont cancel out fully
Or record a Sine Wave with a looper pedal or something like that right?
@@johnnathancordy sure, if you have something to generate it, can be better. But guitar into looper pedal seems easy and precise enough, and if you hit it hard, then you can use the same loop both for setting the analog gain in the interface and to measure how much gain was added (take a recording of the loop first at 0 gain, then another one after adjusting).
@@johnnathancordy Hey John, thanks for all the hard work;
us old 'geezer rockers', as my kid calls me, lol, I'm 68,
We used 'pink noise' as the best tool.
When setting unity gain on audio equipment,
pink noise is generally preferred over white noise because it provides a more balanced representation across the frequency spectrum,
making it easier to accurately adjust the gain at different frequencies.
We set up our sound system before every gig to eq the room,
I'm wondering if a pink noise generator would give you a more accurate representation on
the frequency response at unity gain......
Cheers, ✌☮
I completely agree with the conclusion that GhostNoteAudio's approach is actually the correct way to set your levels to achieve the correct level into the plug-in (so it behaves as it should) while optimizing for SNR in the interface. In practice it optimizing the SNR has little benefit and so IF it complicates your workflow it is perfectly reasonable to just set your interface gain to minimum and be happy not having absolute optimal SNR at the D/A converter.
i run amplitube 4/5 with my interface on 3/4 but its a zoom interface specifically for guitar , even looks like guitar head
It made the presets made by other people sound better - they always sounded awful when I turned the gain up on the audio interface which I had previously been used to. Helix Native sounds better now since all this zero on the interface stuff.
Glad this guy made this video. Setting the gain to zero is a bad idea. Your best SNR ratio is at maximum gain.
I think all plugin vendors should mimic Overloud THU. In their plugin they provide a color graded meter indicating their expected input level and a knob to increase/reduce this level at plugin input. With this, you only need two steps: increase the gain on the interface just below clipping level, and then increase/decrease the input level in the plugin according to the meter "good" input zone.
If you work through the logic of that, the advice would lead to this conclusion:
Stratocaster with low output pickups and a headless Strandberg with Fishman Fluences hitting the same peak.
Signal to Noise wasn't what the initial discussion was about; calibrating input levels according to various audio interface specifications and the calibrated input level that various plugins are designed to be used at is actually far more impactful and the whole reason that for so many of us plugins never sounded anything like what they should have.
The best signal to noise is at MINIMUM gain still giving you a near full range digital input signal.
I think all this is telling us is….. there’s more than 1 way to set things up and a lot depends on what equipment you have, what you want to do and how you want it all to work together.
I think it’s also worth watching the Jason Sadites video on this topic.
Yep Jason had some good points!
The only option I have to reduce levels into the interface is using a DI as the guitar is already close to clipping at 0db on the interface. That or use a buffered pedal which is strange as interface claims to match impedance.
I can never get helix native to sound as good as my hardware or any other modeler device .
Really awesome response video! 🙂 After all of this discussion, I will absolutely tell you that, sometimes setting your gain to its lowest settings will be "Just Fine"🙂 - The problem that had arisen was that people were taking this advice, which is a great shortcut to getting decent results, and claiming it was the *optimal* method of adjusting things.
The factors that make the biggest difference are;
1. if you are using a weak output pickup (or if you roll off the volume, like you showed).
2. if your interface has an unusually high instrument input level (meaning you need a stronger signal to drive it to full peak value).
3. If your interface has a lot of self noise.
4. if you're using very high gain ampsims.
In my demo, pretty much all of these elements were involved, and that shows the absolute worst case scenario that can occur.
Just as an aside, I know Steve Atkinson, creator of Neural Amp Modeler, has just announced some new features in NAM that will make calibrating input gain much easier, he's got some really clever thoughts on the process that we should be seeing in a future update!
Watched ghostnotes video several times last night. Watched Rhett's the night before. I stumbled into these videos searching for feedback on who has the best software... I did try ghostnotes method earlier this morning. He includes to say you should increase the output of the plug-in by ED S worksheet, before you reduce it. So ultimately you do reduce it, but not before utilizing ED S worksheet. If I followed that correctly.
Exactly, Ed S work is the ALL important first 2 steps
If you're maximizing SNR for every guitar doesn't that negate the output differences between different pickup types?
You'd readjust the input gain on the plugin to account for the amount of gain you're adding from the volume knob (in many cases with many interfaces this step might not be necessary at all)
I wonder if the guy from Scuffham s gear plug in would have some insight into this topic. That is a great plugin if you have never heard of it. I’d like to see you reach out to him. Thanks
Scuffham S Gear is great!
I use both analogue setups and modelling setups. I kind get it, but also don’t get it about people’s obsession with nitpicking about noise with digital modelling setups. I guess I’d understand why someone who has only ever used modelling might expect some kind of perfect, final-production, processed quality in their real-time playing sound, but if someone has ever used and dealt with all the imperfections inherent in tube gear, why should the sound of digital plugins *have to be* flawless? Not taking a poke at Johnathan, just don’t get the attitude of people in general on the issue.
I have like 20 valve amps, and I WANT the plugins to behave like those do. The plugins are models of specific amps, and I want them to sound and behave like what I’m familiar with. Given that it takes me about 1 second to adjust the input knob, I don’t see what the downside is?
Is the core problem for plugins requiring these additonal steps & considerations by guitarists that plugin manufacturers aren't actually using real guitars into an audio interface as standard when testing & completing their plugin designs?
I think it's mostly because the audio interface manufacturers don't have any recognised or accepted standard to work towards on this, so you get natural variation in specs?
@@johnnathancordy Good point but I would then expect sales to demand full disclosure of testing & recording conditions -- e.g., 2022 Les Paul Studio guitar into a Focusrite Scarlett, etc. -- to maximize positive first impressions rather than a generic statement to avoid clipping the first gain stage of the signal path & then waving goodbye...unless their target audience is trained & experienced audio engineers not all us dickheads in the bedroom.
At the same time nobody is getting physically harmed by the tech here so maybe sales is just enjoying the show..?
On reflection maybe manufacturer coyness is warranted given your fuzzface solo argument at the end of the video -- where not just the guitar volume knob but both pick attack & string stop location can vary the distorted tone thru input volume differences such that it heightens interest from the listener.
Hendrix' Voodoo Child (Slight Return) may be the OG example there but the use of wah, occasional Leslie effect & studio reverb variations do make it harder to focus on just that.
I find strange people use this weird "paint by numbers" approach with amp plugins when *you'd set your gain by ear with a real amp.* You make music with your ears, not with your eyes. Use your ears.
Buzzing to hear what Cordy’s music sounds like once he starts using his ears and not his eyes
"We all do it wrong" is just clickbait nonsense, isn't it.
I watched this last night. I was wondering if you were going to respond.
I think it's an important addition to the discussion - if for nothing else it's good to hear the main point that Ed S, David Beebee and myself had been saying that there is a real issue to discuss around the maximum input level of interfaces and a need to calibrate.
@@johnnathancordy I agree. I've always used real amps and mics so I'm just at the beginning of my plugin journey. Having knowledgeable folks get this sorted is a real advantage for the rest of us. Thanks! I enjoy your vids
@@rigorhead01 I'm hoping the plugin companies and audio interface manufacturers are able to fill in the gaps as it as basically been up to Ed S to try and make sense of this - so hopefully the overall thrust of Valdemar's video which in the main totally validates what Ed has been saying all along is not lost
my thoughts in the comments
Machinated is a dilettante.
You’re welcome 😉
Finally an engineering based solution. Says an electrical engineer ....
For those that are too slow. Interface input gain is the same as optical zoom for cameras and input gain in software is like digital zoom.
And no this is not complex issue unless you have problems to observe and put 1 + 1 together.
In the quest to oversimplify what is not a simple problem, I think most of this stuff is being misinterpreted.
1) Audio interfaces have a variable maximum input level
2) Plugin manufacturers have a variable calibration input level
One part of the discussion is about trying to match your audio interface to that calibration input level.
The other part of the discussion is about signal to noise ratio, which I think most folks have a bit of a better grasp on
Not at all. Optical zoom on a camera has no artifacts. Analog gain introduces noise. Esp a higher preamp gain.
@@benjaminashlinyes... Original comment is inaccurate. Digital gain is transparent more like optical zoom while analog gain has the potential to increase noise floor and alter the signal like digital zoom.
Running right below clipping was never recommended. That's where your input has the most noise.
That's actually exactly the advice that was given by Neural DSP, Line 6, and countless others prior to this discussion. It's still the advice that is being given in Step 3 of Valdemar's approach (the new piece of advice alongside that is to then reduce in the digital domain by whatever you added on the front of the interface)
Right below clipping whilst playing your loudest is the advice, this is subtley different from running right below clipping. And it would create more noise if you didn't compensate in your plugin (which is exactly what is advised).
Sorry, is this now click-baiting content-ping pong to stay relevant in youtube land? ffs, what happened to "adjust to taste"?
Adjust to taste has no place in discussions of accuracy when the whole point of the Neural DSP plugin world is about ACCURACY.
These are plugins that are based on real world pieces of gear, and what we do at the input gain stage is about the most important factor in determining whether your AC30 sounds like an AC30 or a Dual Rectifier.
@@johnnathancordy Another important aspect is portability, if you create a preset it won’t sound the same in my computer unless we both are using the same calibration, and I think we all have found presets (or captures) claiming to be clean that sounded completely overdriven and the other way around. I think we all should be in the same page.
If you adjust to taste and every setting sounds bad you will blame the plugin when you might have been making huge mistakes in the gain staging going into it