I personally took out Poison Blade, Shield Snooper and Amal from my Treachery Deck for two reasons - these cards have too much impact in my humble opinion even by Dune standards and card distribution more closely matches the base game's ratios. New cards are always a welcome addition when done right and I can see that you've put a lot of thought into them.
Later in the game the bene gesserit used the voice to command "you must use a poison weapon" and played a snooper . I said "of course", and then played poison tooth and won. Bene gesserit was not happy with that.
I love these cards man. The thing that really kills games for me is when they become "solved". This is especially egregious when you play with the same group of people everytime. Eventually, people will figure out a strategy which maximizes their chamces for winning and will just do that every single game. This applies both to the macro of the whole game as well as to each of its systems from betting, to shipping, to combat, etc. From the outset, dune has a lot of qualities which help to alleviate this, such as the asymmetric factions and the mix of random elements with perfect knowledge elements, but it still can get to the point where i know exactly what to do to win a particular battle or whatnot, and these cards really help to prevent that. Not only do they give me more options but they provide more things which i might need to play around. This extends also to basically all new mechanics introduced in the expansions such as the tech tokens, the stronghold abilities, the new planets, etc. They all add variables which make it more difficult to do the internal decision matrix which constitutes ones strategy for playing a round of dune, and we can introduce or remove these elements from our games to keep things feeling fresh. This kinda turned into a rambling mess, but basically I like the new stuff because I can add it to the game when it starts to get stale and it also prevents people within a game from reaching a point of absolute certainty as to what action will result in greatest utility to them
Yes, they whole shuffling of the variables is central to why I like working on new variants. I definitely have found myself feeling the "solved" element at times, so I like anything that shakes that up.
In the last game we played emperor played poison blade and the fremen played shield snooper and won by 1 force. The emperor said "I can't believe this is happening to me! Like what are the odds.."
I found the poison blade can be beaten if you know a player has it. Use a weak leader and out dial the opponent preferably with a poison tooth or artillery strike, also using the Voice with the BGs or as an ally has worked well to block it as either a projectile or poison weapon. Just adds to the variety and fun.
The poison blade and shield snooper have been very hard to deal with if kept. The entire table had to plot against the one who had it to be able to get it out of their hands. We decided to house rule them to Discard after use. The certainty they provide is valuable and strong enough to justify a single use. Alternatively here are house rules not yet tested. Poison Blade : must discard after use unless you win the battle using your lowest strength starting leader or cheap hero. Shield snooper: must discard after use unless you win the battle having 0 forces dialed. This way, you may keep them but it comes with a price. Thoughts?
I look at it like this: Lasgun has been the dominating card for 40 years. No defense against it. Still, it has its weakness: someone needs to play a shield and sacrifice their forces and leader. But if you don’t have a shield, Lasgun just keeps annihilating you. Poison Blade is the new Lasgun, with its own subtle interplay.
@jackredathewarp but an opponent's lasgun is easier to manipulate with abundance of shield cards and voice to force a nuke/loss. You can't do that with poison blade. At least its use should be limited to once per round per battle if kept.
@@hragkaraoghlanian7591 Poison Blade is even more vulnerable to Voice though... if BG say no poison weapon, PB is blocked. Same with no projectile weapon. To each their own of course, but I prefer having it in, because I like the scariness it causes.
After playing rabidly for the past 3 years or so and now addicted to constant asynchronous play, I think the chess analogy is PERFECT. That being said, the expansion deck helps deliver the original paranoia that comes with uncertainty and terrible purpose. There are so many possibilities we mere mortals can only hope to Mentat or rudimentary Prescience our way to victory
I love the added variety each expansion offers even the poison blade. Can’t wait to give the 3rd expansion a go, the option to defend/invade each other’s home world sounds fantastic.
My group have only played a few games - 7 I think. Loving Dune and the expansions, however the first game we played with the expansion treachery cards a player got both poison blade and shield snooper and it really broke the game.. I can see that this is super rare however it was really unfun!
Hey Jack, you may not be able to say, but are there any more planned expansions past Ecaz & Moritani? A buddy and myself have a couple fun ideas for new factions and would be curious how that process looks on your end of things? Thanks!
I'm curious: What is your favorite way to play Dune? Do you play with every variant enabled? Which variants do you like the best? Do you allow every faction or regulate so the economy/battle/starter factions are present equitably? I think my ideal is: Base Game + Advanced From Expansion 1: Tech Tokens, Cheap Hero Traitor, Special Treachery Cards, Poison Tooth, Artillery Strike (No double or dwitch weapons, double because OP in my limited experience, switch because complicated), From Expansion 2: CHOAM and Richese Factions, Stronghold Bonuses From Expansion 3: I don't have it yet but Nexus cards are definitely in my ideal games, not sure about the Homeworlds or Factions yet Don't like to play with Ixians or Tleilaxu because Ixians just do so much they annoy the other players with their complexity, Tleilaxu because Face Dancers are not fun for players other than the Tleilaxu player. Hero Skills are cool but half the time we forgot about them or were confused by them. After watching this video I'd consider adding those extra few treacheries back in but only with experienced players, when I have played with them new players got frustrated with the double cards and confused by the switch cards.
I have a video coming out soon that covers my favorite default mix to play- but in general, I like random factions. A couple variants are now always used, but the others are rotated in and out.
I really like the new treachery cards. The only issue with more treachery cards is that there is no card what let the players to burn the treachery deck faster. Hear me out. We had a situation many times that a player had lets say a poison weapon from the start. The others didn't had or lost it with a battle (agains a projectile) early on. And there were no poison deff until turn 4+. So a poison weapon is unstoppable in this case. Okay it is a legit tactic (especially with Harko) to buy out all poison deff, and you will make a rush victory. So more treachery cards you have in the deck, the less chance you have to have a specific one with less than 6 players. There is 51 treachery cards if you add the extra arty and tooth and not change them. Not to mention the fan expansions, there will be 160+ treachery cards, but stay with the 51. In a 4 player game with no Harko and Ix, only 4 cards will be drawn each turn, so if the shuffle is unlucky, all poison deff (I think there is 7 with the special ones) can be in the bottom half of the deck. So a search card what let you draw the top 6 card from the treachery deck and let you keep one if you pay 2 spice for the Emperor (or the bank if there is no E player), then discard the rest, would be great. I really like to add more stuff to this game. We always play with both expansions, full advanced and sometimes we add a few fan expansions too. All in all you make a really good job with the expansion, because you don't give us too much treachery cards to ruin the experience. Usually the new mechanics makes the game more fun, like the tech tokens, amazing addons, grats for that. So I am really excited about the new expansion! Sory for my bad english, I'm not a native speaker of ir.
You make a good case but I think I will continue to remove poison blade, shield snooper, and amal. Dune is very much a political game and I don't think those cards break it by any means because the table can negotiate how to get them out of a particular player's hand. I just think that they just sway things a little bit too much and not in a way that really adds to the experience in my opinion. The lasgun is really strong but turning it around on the player who has it is really satisfying, just beating someone with the poison blade or shield snooper isn't as much fun to me.
I too like using the extra Treachery Cards in my Dune games. Hell, when I was running the Dune tournament at GenCon from 1997 to 2009, I was using all the Treachery cards that Avalon Hill put out for the game, both from the expansions and those published in the General. But do not knock the Dune tournament at WBC. There everybody knows the main game, but not all know the expansions. So, to be fair, only the main game is played.
I love when we think we know how a battle will turn out and suddenly someone is playing poison tooth or artillery strike :)
Two weekends of Dune IN A ROW? You're living the dream my guy!
I personally took out Poison Blade, Shield Snooper and Amal from my Treachery Deck for two reasons - these cards have too much impact in my humble opinion even by Dune standards and card distribution more closely matches the base game's ratios. New cards are always a welcome addition when done right and I can see that you've put a lot of thought into them.
Later in the game the bene gesserit used the voice to command "you must use a poison weapon" and played a snooper . I said "of course", and then played poison tooth and won. Bene gesserit was not happy with that.
I love these cards man. The thing that really kills games for me is when they become "solved". This is especially egregious when you play with the same group of people everytime. Eventually, people will figure out a strategy which maximizes their chamces for winning and will just do that every single game. This applies both to the macro of the whole game as well as to each of its systems from betting, to shipping, to combat, etc. From the outset, dune has a lot of qualities which help to alleviate this, such as the asymmetric factions and the mix of random elements with perfect knowledge elements, but it still can get to the point where i know exactly what to do to win a particular battle or whatnot, and these cards really help to prevent that. Not only do they give me more options but they provide more things which i might need to play around.
This extends also to basically all new mechanics introduced in the expansions such as the tech tokens, the stronghold abilities, the new planets, etc. They all add variables which make it more difficult to do the internal decision matrix which constitutes ones strategy for playing a round of dune, and we can introduce or remove these elements from our games to keep things feeling fresh.
This kinda turned into a rambling mess, but basically I like the new stuff because I can add it to the game when it starts to get stale and it also prevents people within a game from reaching a point of absolute certainty as to what action will result in greatest utility to them
Yes, they whole shuffling of the variables is central to why I like working on new variants. I definitely have found myself feeling the "solved" element at times, so I like anything that shakes that up.
In the last game we played emperor played poison blade and the fremen played shield snooper and won by 1 force. The emperor said "I can't believe this is happening to me! Like what are the odds.."
I love using these, they add even more variance and excitment. But I have taken out the poison blade, since it seemed a bit too strong to us.
I found the poison blade can be beaten if you know a player has it. Use a weak leader and out dial the opponent preferably with a poison tooth or artillery strike, also using the Voice with the BGs or as an ally has worked well to block it as either a projectile or poison weapon. Just adds to the variety and fun.
as a long time anti shield snooper / poison blade player, you make a good case
The poison blade and shield snooper have been very hard to deal with if kept. The entire table had to plot against the one who had it to be able to get it out of their hands.
We decided to house rule them to Discard after use. The certainty they provide is valuable and strong enough to justify a single use.
Alternatively here are house rules not yet tested.
Poison Blade : must discard after use unless you win the battle using your lowest strength starting leader or cheap hero.
Shield snooper: must discard after use unless you win the battle having 0 forces dialed.
This way, you may keep them but it comes with a price. Thoughts?
I look at it like this: Lasgun has been the dominating card for 40 years. No defense against it. Still, it has its weakness: someone needs to play a shield and sacrifice their forces and leader. But if you don’t have a shield, Lasgun just keeps annihilating you. Poison Blade is the new Lasgun, with its own subtle interplay.
I think whats tough is adding 2 more lasguns. I think I would happily add all but those 2 cards to my regular play
@@shawnc292 well, one is Lasgun level weapon, and the other counters them both.
@jackredathewarp but an opponent's lasgun is easier to manipulate with abundance of shield cards and voice to force a nuke/loss. You can't do that with poison blade. At least its use should be limited to once per round per battle if kept.
@@hragkaraoghlanian7591 Poison Blade is even more vulnerable to Voice though... if BG say no poison weapon, PB is blocked. Same with no projectile weapon. To each their own of course, but I prefer having it in, because I like the scariness it causes.
After playing rabidly for the past 3 years or so and now addicted to constant asynchronous play, I think the chess analogy is PERFECT.
That being said, the expansion deck helps deliver the original paranoia that comes with uncertainty and terrible purpose. There are so many possibilities we mere mortals can only hope to Mentat or rudimentary Prescience our way to victory
The richese cards usually always make or break a game with our Dune group and they’re so crazy.
I grow to love Distrans more every game
I love the added variety each expansion offers even the poison blade. Can’t wait to give the 3rd expansion a go, the option to defend/invade each other’s home world sounds fantastic.
My group have only played a few games - 7 I think. Loving Dune and the expansions, however the first game we played with the expansion treachery cards a player got both poison blade and shield snooper and it really broke the game.. I can see that this is super rare however it was really unfun!
Hey Jack, you may not be able to say, but are there any more planned expansions past Ecaz & Moritani? A buddy and myself have a couple fun ideas for new factions and would be curious how that process looks on your end of things? Thanks!
Always planning and testing... really only one more faction I have in mind.
I'm curious: What is your favorite way to play Dune? Do you play with every variant enabled? Which variants do you like the best? Do you allow every faction or regulate so the economy/battle/starter factions are present equitably? I think my ideal is:
Base Game + Advanced
From Expansion 1: Tech Tokens, Cheap Hero Traitor, Special Treachery Cards, Poison Tooth, Artillery Strike (No double or dwitch weapons, double because OP in my limited experience, switch because complicated),
From Expansion 2: CHOAM and Richese Factions, Stronghold Bonuses
From Expansion 3: I don't have it yet but Nexus cards are definitely in my ideal games, not sure about the Homeworlds or Factions yet
Don't like to play with Ixians or Tleilaxu because Ixians just do so much they annoy the other players with their complexity, Tleilaxu because Face Dancers are not fun for players other than the Tleilaxu player. Hero Skills are cool but half the time we forgot about them or were confused by them.
After watching this video I'd consider adding those extra few treacheries back in but only with experienced players, when I have played with them new players got frustrated with the double cards and confused by the switch cards.
I have a video coming out soon that covers my favorite default mix to play- but in general, I like random factions. A couple variants are now always used, but the others are rotated in and out.
I really like the new treachery cards.
The only issue with more treachery cards is that there is no card what let the players to burn the treachery deck faster.
Hear me out. We had a situation many times that a player had lets say a poison weapon from the start. The others didn't had or lost it with a battle (agains a projectile) early on. And there were no poison deff until turn 4+. So a poison weapon is unstoppable in this case.
Okay it is a legit tactic (especially with Harko) to buy out all poison deff, and you will make a rush victory.
So more treachery cards you have in the deck, the less chance you have to have a specific one with less than 6 players.
There is 51 treachery cards if you add the extra arty and tooth and not change them. Not to mention the fan expansions, there will be 160+ treachery cards, but stay with the 51.
In a 4 player game with no Harko and Ix, only 4 cards will be drawn each turn, so if the shuffle is unlucky, all poison deff (I think there is 7 with the special ones) can be in the bottom half of the deck.
So a search card what let you draw the top 6 card from the treachery deck and let you keep one if you pay 2 spice for the Emperor (or the bank if there is no E player), then discard the rest, would be great.
I really like to add more stuff to this game. We always play with both expansions, full advanced and sometimes we add a few fan expansions too.
All in all you make a really good job with the expansion, because you don't give us too much treachery cards to ruin the experience.
Usually the new mechanics makes the game more fun, like the tech tokens, amazing addons, grats for that.
So I am really excited about the new expansion!
Sory for my bad english, I'm not a native speaker of ir.
You make a good case but I think I will continue to remove poison blade, shield snooper, and amal. Dune is very much a political game and I don't think those cards break it by any means because the table can negotiate how to get them out of a particular player's hand. I just think that they just sway things a little bit too much and not in a way that really adds to the experience in my opinion. The lasgun is really strong but turning it around on the player who has it is really satisfying, just beating someone with the poison blade or shield snooper isn't as much fun to me.
Agree
I too like using the extra Treachery Cards in my Dune games. Hell, when I was running the Dune tournament at GenCon from 1997 to 2009, I was using all the Treachery cards that Avalon Hill put out for the game, both from the expansions and those published in the General. But do not knock the Dune tournament at WBC. There everybody knows the main game, but not all know the expansions. So, to be fair, only the main game is played.
All those extra cards must have been wild. I do like the wbc format- looking forward to new tournaments that offer the expanded experience as well.