I have a doctorate in music, was a tenured professor for 10 years, have gigged my whole life, and the one word I have to say about this video is...yup.
Me as well. PhD, Master on Improvisation, playing professionally since I was 16, recognized as "Musikwissenschaftler" in Germany, blah blah blah. I learned a lot. But also a lot of counterproductive thinking, lots of things I didn't need for my language at all, and a bunch of really interesting things. Some helped, some were just neat, BUT, the one thing I REALLY apretiated was being able to play DAILY with other people who felt music like I do, people way better than I, or at least ahead of me for things I wanted to do. Conversations, jams, etc...that "excited for anything music LET'S GOOOOO"- community feel was soooo dammm nice to have.
I will add that I absolutely LOVED my years in grad school being around like-minded people. Lifelong friends and all that. It's just that most the information I received can be found elsewhere at little or no cost. Of course, many of us aren't good self-paced learners and could benefit from an organized education. For excellent self-learners I would say you could avoid music school and just learn it on the streets and thru private lessons.
I wanted to major in music, but in retrospect majoring in computer science was a more sensible choice. I'm in a band and I can afford gear and lessons.
Had 3 yrs of private classical guitar lessons, so no need for music school after that, learning lots if hard rock by ear and playing clubs. Got an engineering degree and had a lucrative career plus occasional musical side hussles.
My daughter is quite talented artistically, but decided to pursue a different path in college. She felt studying it academically would kill the joy of it. She will keep it as an outlet and hobby.
Tim Henson was turned down from berklee Honestly, college education is structured to process everything through your frontal lobe. Music is deeper than that.
Yeah… I went to Berklee for a year. Dropped out to go on tour with Gerald Veasley. I learned more in that 4 month tour than anything I learned in my first year. To be fair, I loved my time there. But I would practice between 4 and 12 hours a day. I learned to hate music and guitar. You had to spend 3 to 4 hours a day in the practice studio, and then spend the rest of your night making sure that you were better than anyone else in your program. I understand that Berklee in the early 90s was different than what it is now. But it was all about competition and little about learning. I have learned more from my time playing with live bands, and some really good teachers along the way.
Yeah when I learned about the competition aspect of a music performance career in high school it just saddened me and turned me away. It’s logical that only the best players get the best positions, so I can’t argue with that. But it’s just not the environment for me. Music is so beautiful! But I don’t think knowing that my classmates were my completion and rivals for LIVELIHOOD in the future would help foster enjoyment in my craft.
@@godinflt555 I'm curious to know where you are now and how you got the opportunity to tour with Gerard, sounds interesting :) That kinda brings a good point, you don't really have to graduate or complete everything in a row in order to advance, if you have a better opportunity that arises that's worth taking a year off or dropping out you can go for it, kinda reminds me of the formation of Dream Theater :)
I’ve heard that the goal of most students going to Berklee is to drop out. Or rather, be able to drop out after making the connections to start a good career in music. So you go for the connections and the extra knowledge and then get out of there.
Holy smokes man, you went in hard. My hat's off to you, I have never seen someone so critical of these school systems but I really feel like you are saying these things with the best of intentions to help people. I didn't go to music school but can echo many of your points with regards to other universities/degrees. A lot of people ruin their financial lives by obtaining degrees that ultimately don't help them earn good livings. Huge kudos to you for putting your perspective out here like this and not pulling any punches!
I was a guitar, Jazz Ensemble, and pop music teacher at an arts-based high school for 18 years recently retiring. Early on I would recommend going to college to study music (usually music education) but as I went on I started sending the technically inclined to study engineering or something they could work at to afford to feed themself. I would tell them to only go to college if someone else pays for it, NOT LOANS! All 7 of your reasons are completely true!
I received a Masters in Jazz Studies from UNT and have been playing and teaching ever since. It was a great experience, and I studied with a great teacher that helped me immeasurably. I am thankful everyday that I got to go. But as time has passed there seems to be a sea change, so much so that I quit encouraging young people to go to school for music, and actually quit teaching in a struggling university jazz department myself. Young people have figured the game of music out. I had many come to me in frustration over their future, so much so that in good conscience I couldn't encourage them to go in debt for a music degree. It saddens me to say this, but it is the world we live in today. You are an exceptional musician and your communication skills are excellent. Amazing video (the truth)! Thanks.
"sold them a dream." That's the worst part. My mother was a college professor turned high school teacher. She told me not to go to college. I'm glad she told me that. I went and got technical certs that landed me a job. Dani, I like you, this video is very important. Be well brother!
You forgot the best music academy in the world….our record player! On that record player the best teachers are rotating… Charlie Parker, Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Albert King, Hendrix, Beck, Herbie Hancock, Holdsworth etc.
I think you misinterpreted. They aren’t transcribing, and implying that transcribing songs is the only way to learn is (at best) incredibly close minded and at worst a lot of things I’m not gonna say cos I want my comment to be seen :)
I just read a docu on Miles. He read lots of music theory books. Also, there's a prominent rock bass rock bass Player who said know all the rules so you can break 'em
One of my hardest lesson in life that I learned after I studied in the pretend school called York University is that your best musical discoveries are not found sitting for 3 hours in a lecture hall "studying music", but that musical discovery is found right there inside of you. All you need is a laptop, an audio interface, a small midi keyboard, and a guitar or whatever instrument, and a quiet area in your house (typically basement) to open and unlock your music, and then you just go.
Hahaha I went there. Luckily, not for music but I did take guitar as elective for two semester. Learned pentatonic position one and how to clap on beat. I blow ppl mind away when they see apply my learned skills.
@@azizaziz7007 It seems like the people who want to troll me on the internet happen to coincidentally go to the same school or some shit like that. Let me help fill the blanks for you so your fucking typing fingers can rest: *I'm a loser. *I suck - BIG TIME! (Kamala impersonation) *I suck at everything *The only people who call me and text on my phone are my mom and duct cleaning telemarketer Punjabis from India. *I'm a gay ass faggot *I'm wrong at everything even if I say 1+1=2 *I'm a delinquent *I'm lazy *I jerkoff a lot *I have no job *I'm fucking broke *I'm stuck and trapped *I don't have a girlfriend, I can't even make cute tall, and handsome tranny boys like me.😮💨 *my social media is dead with zero friends *I watch my mom's shows with my mom. *I hug my mom *everything I touch turns into an epic failure *I'm a dumbass *I'm a York University dropout and I learned nothing there That's all in my fucking dumb brain for now. I have to go out from my basement because my mom has some Chinese food and sprite upstairs.
I'm going to play advocate for a different point of view.I went to school and it put me in an environment in which I was bombarded with music on all level. 24 hours a day 7 days a week .It would have taken me years to learn what I learned in a year at GIT..My teachers real world players Not professors..but working musicians..playing on Albums Touring Playing TV soundtrack..(since it was LA) Movies..One of my teachers was writing tunes for Ozzy.. another played with Al Jarrue..I got to watch Scott Henderson rehersal..and record..I talk with Steve Vai ..he gave me advice..with every down is an up..but I was fortunate my education didn't cost as much as a house
Musicians Institute is more of a networking hub that offers music education and experience as an extra. The music business is 60 percent who you know and who you can meet and network with. Playing ability and musical understanding is great but if you can't make friends and be a likeable person you are screwed anyways. I live in Dayton, Ohio and we have a vibrant scene with weekend long .music festivals ran by bands and promoters on an Independent level. The Werks are a local band that throws the werkout music and arts festival and draws about 30k a year for it. They make about 15 grand a show for headlining slots. The best way to make a living in in music in terms of bands is find a vibrant scene somewhere and become a part of the community. Show up to others events and support them. They will support you too!
I was a music major. Became a news reporter for awhile, then went to law school and am now a tax attorney. Have played music throughout. What you study is neither an entree nor a limitation. Study what interests you, do what interests you. Just don’t piss away money and time on things you don’t really care about.
I went to berklee in the mid 80’s and loved it, many great players and people to jam/learn/grow/be inspired with… I’ve spent every day since playing and teaching, I’m very fortunate. 🤷🏻♂️✌🏻
Funny story, I caught one of your shows waaaay back in maybe 2013-2014. After the show we were chatting and I asked you about Berklee - you told me not to do it. I went to college for music anyways at a much much cheaper college in a much cheaper town. My experience checked off absolutely everything on the list; clowns all around, no one can play, ended up having to take out (some) loans, etc etc. I got worse at my instrument during my studies, I had absolutely NO TIME to actually focus on what I needed to improve. It took me almost half a year to sharpen my ear and technique back to what it was before I attended. I'm still doing music full time, I love every minute, and I'm making a pretty decent amount doing it, but every success I have is in spite of the anchor this degree has chained to my ankle. The stuff you told me back then saved me probably about 100k+ but I still feel like I should be committed to an asylum for going to college for this shit - and for doing it at age 25 after already doing just fine without the degree. Thanks Dani, my career is only possible because of your advice that day, and that Marbin show is still one of the sickest I've ever seen
@@guitartabexpress2926 Too many unrelated classes that drained my time and I had to work a lot to make sure I stayed out of insane debt. I could have had more time to practice, found better musicians to play with, and learned a lot more for cheaper by just moving to Nashville and jamming with people all day (this is all stuff I was already doing before studying so college was a huge step backward in my routine). Before going to college I had a lot more time to practice - same thing when I left; I spent a lot more time doing things that pushed progress a lot more- listening, practicing, and transcribing. Since getting my degree I have had exactly zero people ask to see it, so I feel like I would have been far better off grinding and finding the right people in a big music town - not to mention I would have had no student debt.
This video has some inconvenient truths. I go to a local college and am studying a music minor. Although things like composition lessons and guitar lessons have helped me develop a work ethic, and a more realistic picture of how much work it actually takes to get somewhere, things like ear training they wouldn't fail you as long as you appeared like you were trying. I agree, and most people it is just not economically viable to study music at an institution. If you can get it paid for via scholarships or grants ect, then maybe, but you have to put in the work and you still have to deal with the things Dani said like busy work and overcoming your social identity from high school.
Lol, you’re not wrong. When I got out of high school I went to GIT long ago when it was a 1 year vocational school. That was a good fit for me, I could play well, but I didn’t know harmony, and I learned it during my time there. Then I went back home and busted my ass for more than a decade trying to find the right band. Finally, I joined a military band, which worked well for me. In that career I worked with dozens of people who had MAs, and several DMAs. Quite a large percentage of those folks had to learn to play on the job!
I could not agree with you more. I picked up the guitar when I was 9 and by 13 we had a band that played throughout the province in any event imaginable. So when I took a semester of music in the late 80' I basically went through what you described. So out of the 4 semester required to complete the program, I quickly quit after the first semester and took a computer course instead while still playing on the weekend with the band. So I learned all my suspensions, alterations, extensions and substitutions by learning songs of records and later on the cassette became invaluable for working things out. Love your channel keep up the good work.
"You have to take a lot of classes that have nothing to do with what you like or what you want to do". I think all of us who went to college have said this.
In Germany it's completely different. The conservatories only take very good students and will reject students they don't like or that are not good enough in audition. And tuition in Germany is like 500 per year.
I got the impression it’s like it for art and design too. In the UK, games design courses can’t hire from industry because they don’t pay enough, and a lot of students aren’t well-prepared enough to do the subject, so it’s not appealing as a job even without money issues. Got a very different impression from talking to designers in Berlin.
A problem with game design is a lot of people get into it just because they think it sounds cool or they like playing games. It’s the same with music, if you go in without a vision and your only goal is to appeal to people you will end up appealing to no one.
People in the US moan about how higher education in Europe is inexpensive, but they don’t realize only the best get in. Also think one of reasons so many foreign students in school in the US, couldn’t qualify in their home countries. Then half of them just stay here illegally. Lol
where did you go? i want to apply to Popular Music programs for next Winter so I'm working on my portfolio right now. but it just seems from what i heard from people during the internships i did this year, while everyone said you don't necessarily neeed a degree to work in music, a lot of people did study it and made important connections from it. I feel like when you take away the money argument, not a lot of his warnings apply...
Thx Dani you've just convince me to not go to music school. I have already all the skills in me to being a master and produce some freaking good music !!
Don't forget the value of good teachers. I'm talking individual lessons. A good mentor will help you avoid developing bad habits while finding and filling gaps in your theory or technique. Our son took guitar from an incredible guy who used to tour year-round. Ever see a guy shredding without looking at the guitar once? He prefers teaching because he creates musicians who can bring the good vibes to more venues than he could ever play by himself in a hundred lifetimes. And he gets a kick out of it.
I can relate to this so much. Although I didn't go to a highly expensive nor a renowned school, I never felt I got my money's worth. I basically paid for something that I later realized I could've learned on my own by transcribing tunes and reading books. Now with youtube it even makes less sense to study music performance in college. Had youtube been as prolific as it is now 20 years ago, I would've skipped college entirely.
I did a degree in music in Scotland. Same nonsense. Teaching you about a long dead industry. Not giving you anywhere like the training or education needed to make you employable. Those who were successful were always going to be. Its a business and its there to sell you a status symbol of a piece of paper. It had nothing to do with artistry. Its heartening to hear someone across the planet recognising I wasnt insane 25 years ago for seeing it for what it was.
This is an awesome video with a lot of valid points. But just to offer another perspective: I studied Jazz at the New School (which sadly has really declined in the past few years). I totally agree with the point about their not being an objective measure. This is true of New School and Berklee especially and it’s really sad. However, from my personal experience, having a music degree has actually helped me out in certain situations. Having a music degree from New School has gotten me in the door for a lot of teaching work. I can tell you from personal experience that at least here in NYC, if you want to teach, a lot of institutions and people who want to take private lessons are more likely to seek you out if you have a music degree. I have also found that even for gigging, it can add a little bit of extra weight to your name, though of course it’s nowhere near as important as your professionalism and how you play. Also, I can definitely say I have gotten a lot of opportunities from the people I have met during my time in school. All of this is just my experience though. It really depends on what your goals are. If you want to be an internationally, acclaimed artist, getting a music degree is probably going to be a waste. It’s better if you want to be a working, teaching musician. I will say that if you don’t get a scholarship (even if it isn’t full ride), it might be worth thinking twice. Sorry for the long comment, but thanks for this video Dani and I love your music!
I agree with you not negative Dani. You have to know how to work the music indicatory and yes, you need to be good at whet you do much like all other professions.
Look, the real truth is, don't do anything in music unless it's the only thing that you can do. I don't mean ability wise, I mean that unless you can't concentrate on anything else and you can't keep your hands from your instrument, you won't go far. It's not a job, it's a vocation, an obsession, and unless you want to play every moment of the day I suggest you do it for a hobby and have fun. If you think you're good enough, back yourself and do it but, yeah, a degree is worthless in music. I've played for 40 years, played in our national orchestra, toured with some big names, recorded, been on TV blah blah blah.....I have zero qualifications.
@@idontwanttousemynameyoutub7538 Precisely. One of the motivators for my move from music to a “real job” was not simply the money, but the fact that I played with so many musicians for whom what you’re describing was absolutely true. They were so devoted and obsessed that they could truly not do anything else. I feel guilty taking up space needed by such folks. There are three reasons to be a professional musician. Literal obsession, as you describe here. Genius level abilities. And the most common, the ability to tap into the hormonal madness of 10 to 25 year olds. The last is the key to the people who actually make money in music.
@@jerryballard371 Yes that's true, but there really never was money in music, only in "pop" music. For me that's not even the same subject as what I'm interested in. But you can always teach, accompany student exams, play different music etc. and you can make good money. But if a house and kids and two cars is your goal before you're say, 40, you probably should get a job that pays. Personally, I don't regret anything. I just wanted to leave the house every day and play my guitar. I had a great time and I would hate for people who really love music to regret not taking the risk.Nothing worse than regret when you're old.
I did my music education in South Africa, based on Berklee. I'd been playing for years and had done the original Berklee correspondence arranging course (which was really helpful). For me it was great, We had good teachers, and they gave me an excellent toolbox that helps me create the kind of music I wanted to make. However, the drop-out rate was horrendous. For the bridging course out of 20 students, only 10 moved on to 1st year. Of those, only 5 went on to 2nd and only 2 or 3 ended up graduating. Of those who graduated during the years I spent there as a student and lecturer, most of them went into African hip-hop or recording studios (no degree necessary). And when I was looking to join a band, not once was I asked "What's your qualification"? The truth is that if your desire is to play popular music it won't help much. On the other hand, it burns my bum that anyone can set themselves up as a music teacher- and a lot of those I wouldn't even let walk my dog! No one will go to a doctor who doesn't have the diploma on their wall, so if you want to teach, get yourself the diploma or go out and prove yourself in the music world. The truth is that playing music to a high level is insanely difficult, many are called but few are chosen. For me there was no other option than music, I had no other skills (or interests) that I could monetize. I've never been rich, but I've managed to support myself in music into my late 70s- and I call that success.
I too am studying music this side in South Africa. We were quite a few in the beginning now we're down to less than 10 cos the work is either too difficult or just too much. In one class I'm the only one this semester. But I do like studying it. In Africa they focus alot on traditional sounds or songs which cultivated the music buy it probably makes no difference. One things for sure these cats quickly jump on this amapiano music with no degree needed and one can become well off.
@@gt_spec9371 The biggest predictor of success in the music biz is not talent- it's persistence- the ability to push forward, no matter the difficulties. The study doesn't end with the degree it's a lifetime of struggling to improve. So keep at it, if you want it badly enough you'll get it.
Most musicians have to start UA-cam channels in addition to gigging and writing.. degree or not. The fact there isn’t much music industry anymore, doesn’t mean the schools and skills aren’t valuable. With so many subjects- a degree doesn’t get you a job or make you a pro.. it gives you tools that you need to creatively create value out of. I also think becoming an artist has always been a stupid career path- but luckily there’s more to this world than money.🤘❤️
Take my advice from someone who’s been doing this rock n’ roll / blues stuff in hundreds of bars, cafes, hotels, festivals and private functions for over 40 years! “Don’t quit your day job!” Use music as a fun, weekend,hobby and an occasional income. Never rely on this as a career. Rock n Roll is dying and the audience doesn’t care; they want DJ’s, trance, hip-hop and pop shit. It’s frustrating I know, but it’s reality. Good luck … 🍀
I went to Berklee from 1991 to 1993. From my experience, you get out what you put in. If you take it seriously and want to learn and practice hard, you will progress and learn alot. Ask some fellow students about the instructors. Find out which instructors are right for you. Each teacher specializes in something different. I studied with 4 different private instructors over 2 years. (4 semesters) There was no internet back then. So, nowadays, you can learn a lot off the internet. But, nothing beats private instruction. There were students there who had the $$ and got accepted because they could afford the tuition. But, they most likely failed there classes and didn't learn squat. ****Another major benefit to attending Berklee is the people and the connections you will make. I've met amazing musicians that I am still really good friends with to this day.
I am in a community college, studying to get into the jazz program at state. I don't disagree about the private school thing, but I am getting my education all paid for in scholarships. Yes It takes time away from working, but I'm basically retired anyway and it's a bucket list for me. I am in theory, ear training, ensembles and getting private lessons. I've done classes in software music notation (RIP Finale) and music production/engineering. So I'm having a positive experience because the accountability puts a structure around it and the performances keep my chops up. I feel and see growth. I couldn't sing harmony for shit before I took ear training classes and it crept in on my performances so that I could just hear and perform it. I think that my takeaway is don't get fooled into going into debt and take the time and money resources, use them wisely. I love your suggestion to take private lessons with some great player heroes. The private lessons I am taking have really pushed my playing forward among the other experiences school has given me. You don't always get what you pay for, but nothing worthwhile comes easy or cheap.
People have to realise expensive private schools are for rich kids with parents paying for their school or lucky full ride scholarship kids. It is not affordable if you are poor. If you can't afford a luxury SUV in one cash payment then you aren't rich. An expensive school isn't for you. Community college or state college is your best and only real option.
@KazuhiraMiller-e4z I am tutoring music theory and getting paid to do so, I am pretty happy with the overall experience. I have personal instruction and help with my development. I've seen more growth in the last year and a half than I've had in 20 on my own.
Great to hear a music educator laying it out on the line...you've inspired me to do a whole video on the "Modern Myth" of the ridicules music industry today and how there are very few ways to make a living off of being a music creator UNLESS...you have a lot of LUCK!
Give this man the world's biggest Attaboy! I love and respect Dani for having the cojones to speak openly, transparently, and bravely about this topic.
@@DV-mq5fvdefine “done well”. What is the sum total of student loans do you have, how much money do you make per year, and what do you do for a living? Keep in mind that Berklee tuition is $75,000 per year.
@@DV-mq5fvwhat music degree did you get, do you have any student loans, if so what is the total amount of your student loans, what job do you have, and how much money do you earn per year?
Back in high school, a buddy and I played together every day, hours at a time, we lived to play. He got accepted to Berkeley, there was Absolutely no way i could afford college let alone music school. I always felt bad that i didn't get an opportunity like he did. So I Taught Myself! And yeah it was hard, and it took a long time, there was NO youtube, there were NO tv shows about harmony, chord structure, modes, scales, - i had to try and figure out what they were talking about in the few books available back then. Listening to songs i liked and analyzing why those notes or phrases worked taught me. I played 6 nights a week for 10 years cause I landed a gig with a house band, but it didnt pay squat. I still play but in my livingroom, I dont live in a jazz mecca, been to open sessions and found that the guys running it didnt impress me, and here we are. I still write, record, and play my stuff, but it (the music biz) rarely works out like you think or have been told it will. If you play, or just wanna play, you will be doing it for the satisfaction of doing it. School wont help. You have to be happy in that You Figured It Out. Oh and my friend who went to Berkeley, he teaches music, runs a website, plays in 3 bands, gives private lessons, that should give you a clue just how successful his degree is. And he could play well before he went there.
There is much more to music then performance. Berklee offers 12 majors all in music. Plus you need to go where the jobs are. Your friend probably went back to his home town.
Fortunately when I went it wasn't that expensive, and when I changed careers the degree still "counted." But you're absolutely right. The whole purpose of music school is to perpetuate the music school. And if you point that out, you're accused of negativity or sour grapes. Kudos for speaking the truth.
ABSOLUTELY GREAT ADVICE!!! I almost was gonna go, not only to Berkeley, but was also thinking about G.I.T. way back in 1981 right after I graduate high school in Chicago. My Grandfather was really not for that at all & convinced me not to go to music school at all because of the exspenc & no guarantee of getting work. So I just studied & practice on my own with my friends & did a lot better than I thought I would, & back in 1981, there was no UA-cam or anything, you just had to work hard. I lived off of music for quite a while, & loved it. I'm 60 years old, my wife & I live in SW Florida & I'm still gigging, playing 100% instrumental fusion music ( with some pop covers, instrumental versions) but my advice to anyone is go to trade school ( I did for HVAC ) have a solid career in the needs sector, not the want sector, & fund your music that way so nobody can pursuae you away with music industry lies & B.S. GREAT VIDEO MY FRIEND!!! Be safe, Rock On & God Bless.
All of this is absolutely true. Especially what you had to say in regards to the level 8 musicians that pretty much have a career the whole time that they’re enrolled at Berklee. I was there, graduated in ‘03. It’s just not fair.
I live in Europe and I just entered the conservatory. From age 3, I've been playing piano and singing. Before this study, I worked a lot and tried some other (creative) studies, but felt like I wouldn't get enough freedom to express myself. The school I chose to study music is one of the only schools I know who truly care about music and making you into the individual. I have no debt because I can pay it off with all the work I'm doing. I'm actually doing well, and I hope this will blossom even more when i graduate. I fully understand your concerns, I truly do. Some of my classmates don't even know how a 2-5-1 actually works (they just play it), but seeing myself so happy and finally being productive because I'm studying my passion is just the best feeling and drives me to continue in life.
I really do appreciate your honesty! You did not sugarcoat it and you said what needed to be said! In my state I live in a county with the most concentrated wealth in the entire state and the music stores here won’t even look at you as a potential music teacher unless you have a degree in music. And you’re absolutely correct, I’ve gotten tons of information right here on UA-cam… so thank you for saying I like it really is! By the way, your videos are fantastic and I really enjoy watching your channel!
You are right. In my case, since Berklee was a bridge between my life in Brazil and my move to the U.S., I can't regret it. I got a very good scholarship in '93. I came here and soon realized that 1 in 10 students were already ready for gigs on the first day, due to the number of talents from all over the world. I also noticed that what they offer doesn’t hold much value; most of the professors are at best competent and at worst suck the natural inspiration from the students. Plus, the environment is extremely competitive. By chance, I had some great experiences because I met some of my jazz idols who came for workshops, concerts, or to teach for a few days. In the end, although I entered as a jazz pianist (at 21), I left with a love for the more obscure classical music that I discovered in a class called "20th Century American Classical Music." Nowadays, it's worse because many think that if they can just play some chords and sing somewhat in tune, they can pursue a career. Phil Woods was right: music is for very few; he didn't recommend living off music. Fast forward to 2024, and music continues to degrade each day. What’s truly worthwhile often consists of reworks from the golden age of sound. The same is true in classical music, where many draw inspiration from those who could write timeless pieces. The erosion of civilization is having a significant impact on the arts.
I'm just about to start my senior year in music school. For perspective I go to Rimon School Of Music, the equivalent to Berklee in Israel that also collaborates with Berklee in many things, even having a program that combines the two schools (a 2-3 years in Rimon, and then 2 years in Berklee with a small scholarship). Tuition is way less expensive than any tuition in the US (something like 8K$ a year) and I pay with my disability aid (autism), and we get the school's own diploma which is equivalent to a Berklee undergrad degree, though you can combine it with a BA in arts with Israel's open university or a music education degree with an education university. I combine production and guitar in a combined program. The production program is always evolving with new younger teachers coming in every couple of years with the older teachers having huge resumes working with big artists in the country. The program has even more focus on electronic production nowadays and even some courses in backline and live sound (I have some friends who haven't even finished the program and already got jobs in that through that course). The guitar program is not focused on jazz but more so like a trade school for guitar. Both jazz and rock are required for a full guitar degree and you can choose either or if you combine with production or songwriting, with courses on many different genres (Latin, Flamenco, Blues, ethnic and the art of acompanying a singer on acoustic guitar) and many ensembles in many different genres (last year I took the Balkan ensemble and this year I'm gonna take the Hip hop ensamble for example). Only the private lessons and overall program exams have jazz requirements but some like me choose rock teachers who give you some loopholes. There is a full on jazz institute in the school and I've been offered to go there but I refused. There's also a songwriting program there where it almost all revolves around songwriting and perfoming your material competently, there have been more than a few popular artists even in recent years who went there! Netta Barzilay for example got a degree from there before she won Eurovision :) I would say there's also the issue here with some tolerance for incompetency, but the culprits are very rare cases that usually don't last. I'd say it's kinda hard to compare music school in Israel and music schools in the US, I think because the country is very small with everybody knowing everybody inside the industry, and with tuition being way less than in the US I think it's a much less of a straight up easy all encompassing answer and more so what fits you as a person, and with how things are going for me right now I think I made a good choice (in fact I'd say this choice saved my life).
@@marbinmusic וואי לזה לא ציפיתי! אבל כן נראה לי שהקייס דיי שונה בין ישראל לאמריקה או אירופה. יש אצלנו גם מסלול בין לאומי שסטודנטים מכל העולם באים לכאן (בעיקר יהודים אבל לא רק). הרוב באים לשנה אבל יש כמה שאני מכיר שעשו עליה ונשארו, וגם חברה משם עשתה שנה כאן ברימון ואחרי זה עברה לברקלי. הייתי ממליץ ליהודים בחו"ל שחושבים ללכת ללמוד מוזיקה לשקול להגיע אלינו :)
Go to the cheap state school and major in music if you can. It does have pluses. But everything he said he about the expensive schools is true. Best ideas, take private lessons with the masters and your heroes.
I can't argue with any of this as I would give the same advice to most who ask me the same question (is it worth it?)...but for me, it was the best time of my life, I became more of a musician than I could've ever dreamt to become and made friends for life I still keep up with 15 years later. Still in debt but I wouldn't have had the experience without going into it (small town IN kid here) and if I'd kept working my fast food job vs taking the risk who knows where I'd have ended up, likely a suicidal alcoholic. I've made all my income from playing guitar since graduation in 2011 and while teaching isn't the rock star dream, it is very rewarding and pays way better and more consistently than gigging does or ever did. I know I'm in the minority here but I wouldn't take back my experience at GIT for anything. Cheers mate. 🤘🤘🍻
You're right. All teachers have known this for a long time. It doesn't just happen with jazz. In flamenco the same shit happens. Private schools seek profit and the public conservatory has problems with the curriculum, professors and subjects. What is studied does not correspond to reality. 100% agree with you.
Like everything in life, what you get out of it depends on what you put into it. When I was 22 I let a negative post graduate student poison me with his negativity, today 35 years later I regret the rash decision I took under his influence. Give it your best shot and follow through on your dreams.
When I was 17 (finished HS a year early), I went to a music school in Chicago for 2 semesters, & after getting an offer to tour (which required taking a semester off) I went to my school's dean for advice. He told me if touring/playing for a living was what I truly wanted to do with my life, I shouldn't just take the semester off, I should fully drop out & not come back. He went on to explain to me that music degrees aren't worth the paper they're printed on, unless you want to teach academically & are willing to take on the debt that comes with a 6 year graduate degree (& even then, there's tons of competition & most people get a teaching job by relocating to a smaller city or suburb). Obviously none of that appealed to me, so he told me to enjoy my 1st tour & do everything I can to network into another, I did. Some of the best advice I ever received in my life, I went on to support myself as a touring/gigging musician for well over a decade, got a little lucky, & ended up co-owning (with my partner) a house before I turned 30
I did a year at Beeklee. I entered Beeklee a dedicated guitarist who was a nervous young boy. I left as a confident and capable musician with unshakable confidence in my musical ability that wasn't based on my ego but in my rock solid commitment to putting the work in to do whatever I needed to do.
I had an awesome time at the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama. Did my MA in Jazz and learned from some of my favourite players who couldn’t have been more supportive and helpful. Huw Warren taught me piano, he’s a monster player and gave so much of himself. Yury Goloubev taught me more about ear training and transcription than I thought was possible. Ears like a bat. Anyway, it was a great experience and helped me become a way better player. Maybe it’s different in the USA or other colleges here, but we had constant feedback on all aspects of our playing. I lecture in music at the University of Winchester in the UK and try to pass on as much of my experience as a pro as I can. The one thing I’d change there is tougher auditions. Colleges are really struggling financially now and are taking anyone who can pay, especially overseas students. On a final note, so many of the pro musicians I work with are graduates from UK colleges. They’re the new backbone of music here in the Bristol music scene. It’s not all doom and gloom. That said, one of my band mates who’s making waves on the scene in the UK, Charlie Allen, never studied in college! It’s not for everyone and it’s probably cheaper here due to caps on fees. Would I go now if I was starting out? Definitely not. Everything I need to know is online now, most of it for free! Bless. X
Totally agree! I m a respected guitarteacher in The Hague Holland and I never went to a ,very expensive, college. When I was a kid I worn out the recordplayer to find out those Neil Young chords and tried to steal as much musical info from friends as I could. After aprox . 6 years of teaching myself how to play the guitar I was able to play popmusic but also classical guitar at an intermediate level. After that I had many very good private teachers as well as in classical music as in jazz. I learned a lot from those guys but in the end you have to do it all yourself. Study study and...study. It has nothing to do with expensive schools. To become a good guitarist the most important things are knowing what to study and very hard work. And..... dedication. You have to love what you do and do it every day. I play the guitar for over 50 years now. The last 25 years as a guitarteacher at a musicschool and I still love what I do. Besides that I have 2 bands. One jazz and one gypsyjazz. And altough i'm by far not the best (gypsy) jazzplayer in the world I still love to play and to learn. Every f@#€%n day. Also from you Marbin.
Have a masters degree in music......have been able to "squeak" out a living teaching and playing in Las Vegas for 22 years, but have moved several times and am now in a midsize town starting over and struggling to make it work. Your words are wise.......it's a tough road. If your willing to sacrifice some things and wear a lot of hats its possible but not for most.
I have a masters in music and I teach high school guitar. I advise 99.9% of my students not to study music! I'm really lucky to have a job that relates to my degree, the reality isn't the same for many people with fine arts degrees. I'm enjoying your content, and brutal honesty!
We were lucky in that the first place our son started learning to play piano was focused on building basic theory knowledge and then putting it to use in live performances. The "school" was a rickety ex-city building with staircases going everywhere like the Winchester House with 30 rooms. Their auditorium was the old municipal garage. That literally set the stage for his learning from then on: focus on what's needed to get better, then apply it. He's been teaching since he was 17 and now, at age 20, plays the piano bar at a local five-star and does everything from jazz to pop and orchestral work. He also plays guitar, learned to dance, and takes singing lessons. Oh, and he learned how to weld- just in case.
Very interesting and I agree with most of what you said. I'm a Berklee graduate who followed the mus. ed path and am on the edge of retiring after 35 years as an educator. It worked out for me for a few reasons. First Berklee was not outrageously expensive before the 2000's. In 1986, tuition was $6000, with room and board, $10000. I lived off campus but totaling all my expenses, a 4 year education cost me $48000 (and I only had $3000 in school loans out of that). To think the same education (and I can't speak of the present quality) is $70000 a year is INSANE. The Mus-ed courses trained me fairly well, though as a public school teacher, it isn't real until you get in front of group of students, no matter how much training you do. As far as musicality, Berklee did not teach me how to play guitar, it may have planted some ideas for direction but I was one of those people who really couldn't play very well. I called it the Berklee School of $$ for a long time, because they should have thrown me out on my ass for barely being able to play anything. But I did get ideas and really learn harmony and theory, there were a number of teachers who were amazing and inspired me to be a better musician and human being. You mentioned having to take Art History, and almost 40 years later that's the class that I think changed my relation to art, music and life, the professor (RIP Henry Tate) moved me in a direction that I've inspired to be and hopefully gave some of that back to my students. That being said over the last 15 years, my playing has stepped up and what was shared with me at Berklee still plays in my head and is part of the musician who I am now. I gig frequently and in retirement that's going to be adding income, and I really look forward to doing what I didn't do in high school, sitting down and practicing many hours and continuing to get better and better.
I went to UNT. I learned a lot more from the other students than I did from the instructors. I had a realization one day that Miles Davis wouldn’t have the chops to be in the One O’ Clock lab band and Billie Holiday wouldn’t be accepted into the jazz vocal department, yet their work is taught. It struck me as bizarre. I put together a Zappa band for fun and at the first rehearsal the second guitarist (who was in the One O’ Clock at the time), asked me who I was and why I wasn’t in his spot. I told him I wasn’t a good enough reader. It was a silly time.
Wow!! You seriously laid it out!! I'm bookmarking this video!! You totally nailed the scam aspect of music school vs practicing, studying, hustling and gigging on your own!!
I'm a nobody from nowhere that graduated from music school in 2003 and spent a decade playing in a US military band. Young people listen up, this guy is giving you the straight truth. Nothing but facts here. When I auditioned for a military band, no one cared about my music degree. They simply wanted to know if I could play and get the gig. Also, isn't it interesting that at music school we spend so much time studying people that never attended music school? I have a hard time thinking of why anyone would attend music school at this point. The orchestral world is probably different (difficult to get a garage orchestra together), but for jazz and commercial music? Just go start doing the thing. Watch this guy's channel. Watch Rick Beato. Learn everything you can, get on a tour bus, go play at Disney land, cruise ships, whatever. But going into crushing debt to study with people who you can take private lessons from like he said in this video? It just doesn't add up
"difficult to get a garage orchestra together", actually it wouldn't be that hard. Just a bigger band with slightly different instruments. Not wearing a tuxedo when you play does not mean you lose the ability to play the notes!
I wish I saw this video 10 years ago. I took lessons the private instrument teacher at a few local music programs before I enrolled. When I was applying to all of them, he pulled strings to make sure I only got accepted at the name-known state school that I could get a major scholarship with. He said that it didn’t matter what the major was, I could do anything with a degree from the state school, but a degree from the “famous” music programs was worthless. He was right. After failing to get anywhere I music I found a new avenue in life and I don’t play anymore. I only really went to music school because I was a lazy teenager and music was all I cared about in high school. My parents pushed me to do because they were failed artists and wanted their kid to live out their dream for them, and they felt everyone has to go to college for something or other. I’m glad my teacher was looking out for me. He was a good man. I don’t think any other music school professors are like that anymore.
I studied out of high school with the late, great jazz bassist Gary Peacock. He was a bit [make sound of simultaneous humming and whistling] -"spiritual" in focus, so I also studied with Seattle local pro players for technical concepts I had never picked up by ear. I had been touring and playing pro for about 8 years before I went to Berklee. I spent my own money, saved from picking and crooning a year at a country music piano bar, so it was very dear money. My first semester in Boston in the challenging freshman program was great: superior profs, a rented new Yamaha upright at home to practice on, a weekend wedding band gig, and generally fun learning drop 2 voicings and such. After the first semester came the winter of my discontent: conductor prof who seldom showed, always late and never called; a prof who thought it a good idea to have the poorest readers in the course plod through the text of a coffee table book on jazz composers, an impossible transfer situation to move on to the next ear training level. It took a health toll, so I withdrew and learned to work the saxophone at John Payne sax school. No regrets; one semester at music school was just right.
I had a different experience with college grads in NYC. Almost everyone I played with who graduated from Berklee or The New School or what have you were really good jazz musicians. And very rarely I could meet someone who didn't have some kind of formal music education who could really play. At least on the jazz scene.
Harsh, bordering on cynical, but true. I graduated from GIT in the late 70s… One of the first classes, when the teachers included the likes of Tommy Tedesco. I wouldn’t trade the experience for the world, but have no illusions that it in any way prepared me to be a Musician. after banging around for a few years and learning that I disliked poverty, I turned my attention to a career that would give me a good standard of living and allow me time to pursue music as something I love, not something I had to do. I’m now retired,and studying music with an intensity I never had in my youth. I frankly learned more in a couple of years at a wonderful local community college program, studying music theory and ear training/solfage. I have no illusions about playing in front of adoring crowds, but publish my modest offerings occasionally on UA-cam and approach it as the personal, spiritual endeavor that I think it really is.
I am exactly who this video is talking about. I have a B.A. degree in Jazz guitar studies. I took a couple guitar lessons in high school and played in a band with buddies who told me where to put my fingers. I had no idea what I was doing nor could I do it without extreme strenuous practice. After two years of college I HAD to declare a major. I met some killer players and I learned that there was even such a thing as majoring in music. Immediately I knew what I wanted to do. I then learned that I had to audition. Why don’t math majors or business majors have to audition? I was fortunate enough to be allowed one semester of lessons to prep for the audition. I worked my ass off and somehow didn’t make mistakes at mg audition and was now officially a music major. With only 2-3 years left I had to fit an entire 4 year curriculum of classes in order to graduate. Many sleepless nights, some nights even staying at the music building and bringing toiletries with me to sleep in the practice room. Before even graduating I developed nerve damage in my hands. I some how graduated and making a living performing is simply not possible. I worked so incredibly hard to learn as much as I could and do the best I could and injured myself doing so. I stopped snowboarding because I was scared to death to break an arm or hand. Go figure. I’m now 36 and waiting tables and bartending trying to get by. I don’t regret it because I would not have put that time and work in otherwise but this video is 1000000000000% correct. Find a good teacher, study and practice privately. Save the money, buy a home, be happy. DO NOT MAJOR IN MUSIC AT COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES! College is such a scam it should be illegal to charge as much as they do.
Well I’m watching this a couple months too late haha. I actually just took a break from working a corporate job the last 4 years to spend some time to work on my guitar playing. Although I’m not doing a full 4 year degree, rather a just 1 year program at MI (online) and I’m on scholarship, it’s still a substantial financial investment I have to make. While I’ve definitely been disillusioned on a few ideals I had about music school, I have been genuinely enjoying my time and have been pretty encouraged to keep practicing and leveling myself up. But this video has really helped me reassess my expectations of how much I can expect this education to help me and highlighted areas I actually have to invest in if I want to make a career in the industry. Appreciate you sharing and being honest 🙏
My first day in the jazz program at William Paterson Univ, jazz great Rufus Reid told all the newcomers that 99% of us would never make it as musicians. He was right. But the 1% who did; they made it huge: drummer Bill Stewart, saxophonist Eric Alexander. But I agree with Dani that those uber-talented artists were headed for greatness regardless of school. Fortunately, I had the foresight to focus on the music business tract and became very successful. No regrets!
Thanks for this. The people who need to see it are parents. That music school degree won’t qualify as post-HS education for most real world jobs. The story at Berklee in the 80’s was if you were any good you got scooped up by a working band in the first year. Just like college sports, if you make. It to graduation you probably weren’t that good. Paraphrasing Zappa: if you want to get laid go to college. If you want an education go to a library.
Steve Bailey who was an artist-in-residence at a university for many many years said “major in Business because you’ll have more time to practice” and it’s true, when I have to learn all these songs for gigs I don’t have time to practice like normal I have to learn these songs.. and those music students have to do the same thing too
I did a summer session at Berklee in 1974. I skipped most of the classes and jammed all night in the basement studios. If you went to Beeklee you know what I am talking about. Probably learned more in jams but a degree would be nice. My guitar teachers were jazz snobs. None of them had slept for weeks or had bathed. Thet spent more energy putting down Larry Coryell than teaching. I actually met the great Bill Levitt. He told me to ditch my spanking new Les Paul and get an archtop. I did no such thing. Walking around Boston was fun. Saw Red Sox games and visted Boston's top cultural center. The Combat Zone. All in all, a great summer. Learned how to alternate pick there. This is huge for a guitar player, Les Paul or not! Thanks for the vid. Made me laugh.
let's say I record a song and release it. Will people know if I have a degree or talent? If I play a simple C major, will it sound different if I have a diploma?
Truth. For me it took most of a lifetime to discover the point of music, for me personally. It's about what you give to others, not about feeding your ego. I'm in my little local band, and we play our little gigs and if people get something from it, that's a win for me and I love playing, just to play. The pressure of making a career and fulfilling some very unlikely dream killed it for me for too long of a time and I dropped playing completely for many years out of discouragement. Big mistake.
(Preface: I do not attend Berklee; I attend a liberal arts college, with a conservatory, and I am in BOTH domains.) It's very simple. Berklee (and probably some other institutions) are factories. They churn out musicians. Several thousand per year. Now, don't get me wrong, I think Berklee is great-I know numerous people who went there and became successful. I also know several former Berklee faculty who are EXCELLENT musicians. So please don't misunderstand. To this video, I will say you have a point, but your point is not accurate across every college, or with every person. My university combines both a nationally-ranked college and a conservatory, and I can (and am required to) participate in both areas. I do not feel scammed, nor do I feel any regret for my college decision (I am a sophomore as of writing this comment).
"When I was 18 my father was so ignorant I could barely stand to be in the same room as him. When I came back home at 22 and saw him again I couldn't believe how wise he'd become in those years."
Wow I appreciate your candor. Seems to be a standard of higher education these days. I see the same thing in my industry of HVAC. They put these kids in school, put them in debt, and teach them nothing. They come out so unprepared .
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
I have a doctorate in music, was a tenured professor for 10 years, have gigged my whole life, and the one word I have to say about this video is...yup.
Good man!
Wait. You can't say that you're an ultra music nerd.
Just because you live in a garage doesn’t make you a car.
Me as well. PhD, Master on Improvisation, playing professionally since I was 16, recognized as "Musikwissenschaftler" in Germany, blah blah blah. I learned a lot. But also a lot of counterproductive thinking, lots of things I didn't need for my language at all, and a bunch of really interesting things. Some helped, some were just neat, BUT, the one thing I REALLY apretiated was being able to play DAILY with other people who felt music like I do, people way better than I, or at least ahead of me for things I wanted to do. Conversations, jams, etc...that "excited for anything music LET'S GOOOOO"- community feel was soooo dammm nice to have.
I will add that I absolutely LOVED my years in grad school being around like-minded people. Lifelong friends and all that. It's just that most the information I received can be found elsewhere at little or no cost. Of course, many of us aren't good self-paced learners and could benefit from an organized education. For excellent self-learners I would say you could avoid music school and just learn it on the streets and thru private lessons.
I wanted to major in music, but in retrospect majoring in computer science was a more sensible choice. I'm in a band and I can afford gear and lessons.
Good! When would you like to start?
Had 3 yrs of private classical guitar lessons, so no need for music school after that, learning lots if hard rock by ear and playing clubs. Got an engineering degree and had a lucrative career plus occasional musical side hussles.
My daughter is quite talented artistically, but decided to pursue a different path in college. She felt studying it academically would kill the joy of it. She will keep it as an outlet and hobby.
This is the whole truth!
My brother has masters in music performance but he’s an IT guru. He’s a pro trombone too!
Thanks for the wake up call. I had a few people tell me it wasn’t necessary but still wanted to go to music school. This video snapped me out of it.
Tim Henson was turned down from berklee
Honestly, college education is structured to process everything through your frontal lobe.
Music is deeper than that.
@@Krunchtastic727man and he wrote so many great songs like Rainbow Connection. Nuts.
Yeah…
I went to Berklee for a year. Dropped out to go on tour with Gerald Veasley. I learned more in that 4 month tour than anything I learned in my first year.
To be fair, I loved my time there. But I would practice between 4 and 12 hours a day. I learned to hate music and guitar. You had to spend 3 to 4 hours a day in the practice studio, and then spend the rest of your night making sure that you were better than anyone else in your program. I understand that Berklee in the early 90s was different than what it is now. But it was all about competition and little about learning. I have learned more from my time playing with live bands, and some really good teachers along the way.
But Rick Peckham was a great teacher!
Yeah when I learned about the competition aspect of a music performance career in high school it just saddened me and turned me away. It’s logical that only the best players get the best positions, so I can’t argue with that. But it’s just not the environment for me. Music is so beautiful! But I don’t think knowing that my classmates were my completion and rivals for LIVELIHOOD in the future would help foster enjoyment in my craft.
@@godinflt555 I'm curious to know where you are now and how you got the opportunity to tour with Gerard, sounds interesting :)
That kinda brings a good point, you don't really have to graduate or complete everything in a row in order to advance, if you have a better opportunity that arises that's worth taking a year off or dropping out you can go for it, kinda reminds me of the formation of Dream Theater :)
I’ve heard that the goal of most students going to Berklee is to drop out. Or rather, be able to drop out after making the connections to start a good career in music. So you go for the connections and the extra knowledge and then get out of there.
@@popstarlo5217 I have many friends whom I met through music school who did that, they got what they wanted and left. Still work with some of them!
Holy smokes man, you went in hard. My hat's off to you, I have never seen someone so critical of these school systems but I really feel like you are saying these things with the best of intentions to help people.
I didn't go to music school but can echo many of your points with regards to other universities/degrees. A lot of people ruin their financial lives by obtaining degrees that ultimately don't help them earn good livings.
Huge kudos to you for putting your perspective out here like this and not pulling any punches!
I was a guitar, Jazz Ensemble, and pop music teacher at an arts-based high school for 18 years recently retiring. Early on I would recommend going to college to study music (usually music education) but as I went on I started sending the technically inclined to study engineering or something they could work at to afford to feed themself. I would tell them to only go to college if someone else pays for it, NOT LOANS! All 7 of your reasons are completely true!
It’s a total scam and we should put some of these folks behind bars.
That anecdote about the 4 chord never coming had me in stitches. Quality delivery Dani
Yeah even I know the 4 chord😂
I received a Masters in Jazz Studies from UNT and have been playing and teaching ever since. It was a great experience, and I studied with a great teacher that helped me immeasurably. I am thankful everyday that I got to go. But as time has passed there seems to be a sea change, so much so that I quit encouraging young people to go to school for music, and actually quit teaching in a struggling university jazz department myself. Young people have figured the game of music out. I had many come to me in frustration over their future, so much so that in good conscience I couldn't encourage them to go in debt for a music degree. It saddens me to say this, but it is the world we live in today. You are an exceptional musician and your communication skills are excellent. Amazing video (the truth)! Thanks.
"sold them a dream." That's the worst part. My mother was a college professor turned high school teacher. She told me not to go to college. I'm glad she told me that. I went and got technical certs that landed me a job. Dani, I like you, this video is very important. Be well brother!
Yeah, unless youre studying something technical/engineering or something like Law/Medicine. So many courses seem to just lead nowhere in Uni.
Yeah I went to trade school and it worked out.
You forgot the best music academy in the world….our record player! On that record player the best teachers are rotating… Charlie Parker, Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Albert King, Hendrix, Beck, Herbie Hancock, Holdsworth etc.
I agree. I went to school for a bit but I had a Berklee teacher haha
And told me this same shit
Now just me and the Ole player
Tell me you're not transcribing music off real physical records. That sounds tedious and ridiculous to be honest.
I think you misinterpreted. They aren’t transcribing, and implying that transcribing songs is the only way to learn is (at best) incredibly close minded and at worst a lot of things I’m not gonna say cos I want my comment to be seen :)
I just read a docu on Miles. He read lots of music theory books. Also, there's a prominent rock bass rock bass Player who said know all the rules so you can break 'em
Go study 📚
One of my hardest lesson in life that I learned after I studied in the pretend school called York University is that your best musical discoveries are not found sitting for 3 hours in a lecture hall "studying music", but that musical discovery is found right there inside of you. All you need is a laptop, an audio interface, a small midi keyboard, and a guitar or whatever instrument, and a quiet area in your house (typically basement) to open and unlock your music, and then you just go.
Hahaha I went there. Luckily, not for music but I did take guitar as elective for two semester. Learned pentatonic position one and how to clap on beat. I blow ppl mind away when they see apply my learned skills.
@@azizaziz7007 It seems like the people who want to troll me on the internet happen to coincidentally go to the same school or some shit like that. Let me help fill the blanks for you so your fucking typing fingers can rest:
*I'm a loser.
*I suck - BIG TIME! (Kamala impersonation)
*I suck at everything
*The only people who call me and text on my phone are my mom and duct cleaning telemarketer Punjabis from India.
*I'm a gay ass faggot
*I'm wrong at everything even if I say 1+1=2
*I'm a delinquent
*I'm lazy
*I jerkoff a lot
*I have no job
*I'm fucking broke
*I'm stuck and trapped
*I don't have a girlfriend, I can't even make cute tall, and handsome tranny boys like me.😮💨
*my social media is dead with zero friends
*I watch my mom's shows with my mom.
*I hug my mom
*everything I touch turns into an epic failure
*I'm a dumbass
*I'm a York University dropout and I learned nothing there
That's all in my fucking dumb brain for now. I have to go out from my basement because my mom has some Chinese food and sprite upstairs.
I'm going to play advocate for a different point of view.I went to school and it put me in an environment in which I was bombarded with music on all level. 24 hours a day 7 days a week .It would have taken me years to learn what I learned in a year at GIT..My teachers real world players Not professors..but working musicians..playing on Albums Touring Playing TV soundtrack..(since it was LA) Movies..One of my teachers was writing tunes for Ozzy.. another played with Al Jarrue..I got to watch Scott Henderson rehersal..and record..I talk with Steve Vai ..he gave me advice..with every down is an up..but I was fortunate my education didn't cost as much as a house
Musicians Institute is more of a networking hub that offers music education and experience as an extra. The music business is 60 percent who you know and who you can meet and network with. Playing ability and musical understanding is great but if you can't make friends and be a likeable person you are screwed anyways. I live in Dayton, Ohio and we have a vibrant scene with weekend long .music festivals ran by bands and promoters on an Independent level. The Werks are a local band that throws the werkout music and arts festival and draws about 30k a year for it. They make about 15 grand a show for headlining slots. The best way to make a living in in music in terms of bands is find a vibrant scene somewhere and become a part of the community. Show up to others events and support them. They will support you too!
I was a music major. Became a news reporter for awhile, then went to law school and am now a tax attorney. Have played music throughout. What you study is neither an entree nor a limitation. Study what interests you, do what interests you. Just don’t piss away money and time on things you don’t really care about.
I’m in 50,000+ of debt for studying music for 5 years, and I’m still a chef
I also worked in kitchens when I was a performing musician, I needed the money, and was never hungry that way.
Thanks for your honesty
Music is just a hobby imo
I went to berklee in the mid 80’s and loved it, many great players and people to jam/learn/grow/be inspired with… I’ve spent every day since playing and teaching, I’m very fortunate. 🤷🏻♂️✌🏻
Glad you had a nice time
Funny story, I caught one of your shows waaaay back in maybe 2013-2014. After the show we were chatting and I asked you about Berklee - you told me not to do it. I went to college for music anyways at a much much cheaper college in a much cheaper town. My experience checked off absolutely everything on the list; clowns all around, no one can play, ended up having to take out (some) loans, etc etc. I got worse at my instrument during my studies, I had absolutely NO TIME to actually focus on what I needed to improve. It took me almost half a year to sharpen my ear and technique back to what it was before I attended.
I'm still doing music full time, I love every minute, and I'm making a pretty decent amount doing it, but every success I have is in spite of the anchor this degree has chained to my ankle. The stuff you told me back then saved me probably about 100k+ but I still feel like I should be committed to an asylum for going to college for this shit - and for doing it at age 25 after already doing just fine without the degree.
Thanks Dani, my career is only possible because of your advice that day, and that Marbin show is still one of the sickest I've ever seen
That’s great to read bro
How do you get worse in your instruments while studying in music college?
@@guitartabexpress2926 Too many unrelated classes that drained my time and I had to work a lot to make sure I stayed out of insane debt. I could have had more time to practice, found better musicians to play with, and learned a lot more for cheaper by just moving to Nashville and jamming with people all day (this is all stuff I was already doing before studying so college was a huge step backward in my routine). Before going to college I had a lot more time to practice - same thing when I left; I spent a lot more time doing things that pushed progress a lot more- listening, practicing, and transcribing. Since getting my degree I have had exactly zero people ask to see it, so I feel like I would have been far better off grinding and finding the right people in a big music town - not to mention I would have had no student debt.
@@guitartabexpress2926he just explained in the video, you're distracted from a bunch of classes that have nothing to do with what you want to do
15 years as a professional Musican. Graduated 2009.
I can say: 100% the absolute and pure truth.
This video has some inconvenient truths. I go to a local college and am studying a music minor. Although things like composition lessons and guitar lessons have helped me develop a work ethic, and a more realistic picture of how much work it actually takes to get somewhere, things like ear training they wouldn't fail you as long as you appeared like you were trying. I agree, and most people it is just not economically viable to study music at an institution. If you can get it paid for via scholarships or grants ect, then maybe, but you have to put in the work and you still have to deal with the things Dani said like busy work and overcoming your social identity from high school.
Lol, you’re not wrong. When I got out of high school I went to GIT long ago when it was a 1 year vocational school. That was a good fit for me, I could play well, but I didn’t know harmony, and I learned it during my time there. Then I went back home and busted my ass for more than a decade trying to find the right band. Finally, I joined a military band, which worked well for me. In that career I worked with dozens of people who had MAs, and several DMAs. Quite a large percentage of those folks had to learn to play on the job!
I could not agree with you more. I picked up the guitar when I was 9 and by 13 we had a band that played throughout the province in any event imaginable. So when I took a semester of music in the late 80' I basically went through what you described. So out of the 4 semester required to complete the program, I quickly quit after the first semester and took a computer course instead while still playing on the weekend with the band. So I learned all my suspensions, alterations, extensions and substitutions by learning songs of records and later on the cassette became invaluable for working things out. Love your channel keep up the good work.
I love that Dani always seems to be having a blast doing these videos.
"You have to take a lot of classes that have nothing to do with what you like or what you want to do". I think all of us who went to college have said this.
In Germany it's completely different. The conservatories only take very good students and will reject students they don't like or that are not good enough in audition. And tuition in Germany is like 500 per year.
I got the impression it’s like it for art and design too.
In the UK, games design courses can’t hire from industry because they don’t pay enough, and a lot of students aren’t well-prepared enough to do the subject, so it’s not appealing as a job even without money issues. Got a very different impression from talking to designers in Berlin.
A problem with game design is a lot of people get into it just because they think it sounds cool or they like playing games. It’s the same with music, if you go in without a vision and your only goal is to appeal to people you will end up appealing to no one.
Italy too and teachers usually are very good
People in the US moan about how higher education in Europe is inexpensive, but they don’t realize only the best get in. Also think one of reasons so many foreign students in school in the US, couldn’t qualify in their home countries. Then half of them just stay here illegally. Lol
where did you go? i want to apply to Popular Music programs for next Winter so I'm working on my portfolio right now. but it just seems from what i heard from people during the internships i did this year, while everyone said you don't necessarily neeed a degree to work in music, a lot of people did study it and made important connections from it. I feel like when you take away the money argument, not a lot of his warnings apply...
Thx Dani you've just convince me to not go to music school. I have already all the skills in me to being a master and produce some freaking good music !!
Good!
No, go to a decent community college and a take a few semesters of theory and and jazz theory.
Don't forget the value of good teachers. I'm talking individual lessons. A good mentor will help you avoid developing bad habits while finding and filling gaps in your theory or technique. Our son took guitar from an incredible guy who used to tour year-round. Ever see a guy shredding without looking at the guitar once? He prefers teaching because he creates musicians who can bring the good vibes to more venues than he could ever play by himself in a hundred lifetimes. And he gets a kick out of it.
You Tube teachers taught me how to play guitar more than what i learnt at school!Salute all the You Tube teachers!
The demon of greed fucks up EVERYTHING in this world. Enough!
I can relate to this so much. Although I didn't go to a highly expensive nor a renowned school, I never felt I got my money's worth. I basically paid for something that I later realized I could've learned on my own by transcribing tunes and reading books. Now with youtube it even makes less sense to study music performance in college. Had youtube been as prolific as it is now 20 years ago, I would've skipped college entirely.
What did you end up doing for a living? Just wondering.thanks
@@tedlivermore6955 I teach guitar and bass, transcribe and arrange.
@@arfoe Cool,you,ve made a living doing that?
I did a degree in music in Scotland. Same nonsense. Teaching you about a long dead industry. Not giving you anywhere like the training or education needed to make you employable. Those who were successful were always going to be. Its a business and its there to sell you a status symbol of a piece of paper. It had nothing to do with artistry. Its heartening to hear someone across the planet recognising I wasnt insane 25 years ago for seeing it for what it was.
This video is so great ..
Shared with another high school kid today .
This is an awesome video with a lot of valid points. But just to offer another perspective: I studied Jazz at the New School (which sadly has really declined in the past few years). I totally agree with the point about their not being an objective measure. This is true of New School and Berklee especially and it’s really sad. However, from my personal experience, having a music degree has actually helped me out in certain situations. Having a music degree from New School has gotten me in the door for a lot of teaching work. I can tell you from personal experience that at least here in NYC, if you want to teach, a lot of institutions and people who want to take private lessons are more likely to seek you out if you have a music degree. I have also found that even for gigging, it can add a little bit of extra weight to your name, though of course it’s nowhere near as important as your professionalism and how you play. Also, I can definitely say I have gotten a lot of opportunities from the people I have met during my time in school. All of this is just my experience though. It really depends on what your goals are. If you want to be an internationally, acclaimed artist, getting a music degree is probably going to be a waste. It’s better if you want to be a working, teaching musician. I will say that if you don’t get a scholarship (even if it isn’t full ride), it might be worth thinking twice. Sorry for the long comment, but thanks for this video Dani and I love your music!
I agree with you not negative Dani. You have to know how to work the music indicatory and yes, you need to be good at whet you do much like all other professions.
Look, the real truth is, don't do anything in music unless it's the only thing that you can do. I don't mean ability wise, I mean that unless you can't concentrate on anything else and you can't keep your hands from your instrument, you won't go far. It's not a job, it's a vocation, an obsession, and unless you want to play every moment of the day I suggest you do it for a hobby and have fun. If you think you're good enough, back yourself and do it but, yeah, a degree is worthless in music. I've played for 40 years, played in our national orchestra, toured with some big names, recorded, been on TV blah blah blah.....I have zero qualifications.
@@idontwanttousemynameyoutub7538 Precisely. One of the motivators for my move from music to a “real job” was not simply the money, but the fact that I played with so many musicians for whom what you’re describing was absolutely true. They were so devoted and obsessed that they could truly not do anything else. I feel guilty taking up space needed by such folks.
There are three reasons to be a professional musician. Literal obsession, as you describe here. Genius level abilities. And the most common, the ability to tap into the hormonal madness of 10 to 25 year olds. The last is the key to the people who actually make money in music.
@@jerryballard371 Yes that's true, but there really never was money in music, only in "pop" music. For me that's not even the same subject as what I'm interested in. But you can always teach, accompany student exams, play different music etc. and you can make good money. But if a house and kids and two cars is your goal before you're say, 40, you probably should get a job that pays. Personally, I don't regret anything. I just wanted to leave the house every day and play my guitar. I had a great time and I would hate for people who really love music to regret not taking the risk.Nothing worse than regret when you're old.
This is the best video for music education and life. Thank you for making this.
I did my music education in South Africa, based on Berklee. I'd been playing for years and had done the original Berklee correspondence arranging course (which was really helpful). For me it was great, We had good teachers, and they gave me an excellent toolbox that helps me create the kind of music I wanted to make. However, the drop-out rate was horrendous. For the bridging course out of 20 students, only 10 moved on to 1st year. Of those, only 5 went on to 2nd and only 2 or 3 ended up graduating. Of those who graduated during the years I spent there as a student and lecturer, most of them went into African hip-hop or recording studios (no degree necessary). And when I was looking to join a band, not once was I asked "What's your qualification"? The truth is that if your desire is to play popular music it won't help much. On the other hand, it burns my bum that anyone can set themselves up as a music teacher- and a lot of those I wouldn't even let walk my dog! No one will go to a doctor who doesn't have the diploma on their wall, so if you want to teach, get yourself the diploma or go out and prove yourself in the music world. The truth is that playing music to a high level is insanely difficult, many are called but few are chosen. For me there was no other option than music, I had no other skills (or interests) that I could monetize. I've never been rich, but I've managed to support myself in music into my late 70s- and I call that success.
I too am studying music this side in South Africa. We were quite a few in the beginning now we're down to less than 10 cos the work is either too difficult or just too much. In one class I'm the only one this semester. But I do like studying it. In Africa they focus alot on traditional sounds or songs which cultivated the music buy it probably makes no difference. One things for sure these cats quickly jump on this amapiano music with no degree needed and one can become well off.
@@gt_spec9371 The biggest predictor of success in the music biz is not talent- it's persistence- the ability to push forward, no matter the difficulties. The study doesn't end with the degree it's a lifetime of struggling to improve. So keep at it, if you want it badly enough you'll get it.
Most musicians have to start UA-cam channels in addition to gigging and writing.. degree or not. The fact there isn’t much music industry anymore, doesn’t mean the schools and skills aren’t valuable. With so many subjects- a degree doesn’t get you a job or make you a pro.. it gives you tools that you need to creatively create value out of. I also think becoming an artist has always been a stupid career path- but luckily there’s more to this world than money.🤘❤️
Take my advice from someone who’s been doing this rock n’ roll / blues stuff in hundreds of bars, cafes, hotels, festivals and private functions for over 40 years!
“Don’t quit your day job!”
Use music as a fun, weekend,hobby and an occasional income.
Never rely on this as a career.
Rock n Roll is dying and the audience doesn’t care; they want DJ’s, trance, hip-hop and pop shit.
It’s frustrating I know, but it’s reality.
Good luck … 🍀
this is turning into my favorite channel!
Welcome to the dark side
I went to Berklee from 1991 to 1993. From my experience, you get out what you put in. If you take it seriously and want to learn and practice hard, you will progress and learn alot. Ask some fellow students about the instructors. Find out which instructors are right for you. Each teacher specializes in something different. I studied with 4 different private instructors over 2 years. (4 semesters) There was no internet back then. So, nowadays, you can learn a lot off the internet. But, nothing beats private instruction. There were students there who had the $$ and got accepted because they could afford the tuition. But, they most likely failed there classes and didn't learn squat.
****Another major benefit to attending Berklee is the people and the connections you will make. I've met amazing musicians that I am still really good friends with to this day.
I totally agree with this
What's your advice for me since I want to be a musicologists
@@edidiongokoro5212 What is a musicologist?
I am in a community college, studying to get into the jazz program at state. I don't disagree about the private school thing, but I am getting my education all paid for in scholarships. Yes It takes time away from working, but I'm basically retired anyway and it's a bucket list for me. I am in theory, ear training, ensembles and getting private lessons. I've done classes in software music notation (RIP Finale) and music production/engineering. So I'm having a positive experience because the accountability puts a structure around it and the performances keep my chops up. I feel and see growth. I couldn't sing harmony for shit before I took ear training classes and it crept in on my performances so that I could just hear and perform it. I think that my takeaway is don't get fooled into going into debt and take the time and money resources, use them wisely. I love your suggestion to take private lessons with some great player heroes. The private lessons I am taking have really pushed my playing forward among the other experiences school has given me. You don't always get what you pay for, but nothing worthwhile comes easy or cheap.
People have to realise expensive private schools are for rich kids with parents paying for their school or lucky full ride scholarship kids.
It is not affordable if you are poor. If you can't afford a luxury SUV in one cash payment then you aren't rich. An expensive school isn't for you. Community college or state college is your best and only real option.
@KazuhiraMiller-e4z I am tutoring music theory and getting paid to do so, I am pretty happy with the overall experience. I have personal instruction and help with my development. I've seen more growth in the last year and a half than I've had in 20 on my own.
Great to hear a music educator laying it out on the line...you've inspired me to do a whole video on the "Modern Myth" of the ridicules music industry today and how there are very few ways to make a living off of being a music creator UNLESS...you have a lot of LUCK!
Give this man the world's biggest Attaboy!
I love and respect Dani for having the cojones to speak openly, transparently, and bravely about this topic.
He doesn't understand how large the music industry is. Overall I believe he is wrong. I have a music degree and have done well.
@@DV-mq5fvdefine “done well”. What is the sum total of student loans do you have, how much money do you make per year, and what do you do for a living?
Keep in mind that Berklee tuition is $75,000 per year.
@@DV-mq5fvwhat music degree did you get, do you have any student loans, if so what is the total amount of your student loans, what job do you have, and how much money do you earn per year?
Exactly what Jeff Berlin talks about
Back in high school, a buddy and I played together every day, hours at a time, we lived to play. He got accepted to Berkeley, there was Absolutely no way i could afford college let alone music school. I always felt bad that i didn't get an opportunity like he did. So I Taught Myself! And yeah it was hard, and it took a long time, there was NO youtube, there were NO tv shows about harmony, chord structure, modes, scales, - i had to try and figure out what they were talking about in the few books available back then. Listening to songs i liked and analyzing why those notes or phrases worked taught me. I played 6 nights a week for 10 years cause I landed a gig with a house band, but it didnt pay squat. I still play but in my livingroom, I dont live in a jazz mecca, been to open sessions and found that the guys running it didnt impress me, and here we are. I still write, record, and play my stuff, but it (the music biz) rarely works out like you think or have been told it will.
If you play, or just wanna play, you will be doing it for the satisfaction of doing it. School wont help. You have to be happy in that You Figured It Out. Oh and my friend who went to Berkeley, he teaches music, runs a website, plays in 3 bands, gives private lessons, that should give you a clue just how successful his degree is. And he could play well before he went there.
There is much more to music then performance. Berklee offers 12 majors all in music. Plus you need to go where the jobs are. Your friend probably went back to his home town.
You da man Dani ;)
Dude!!! How do I get in touch with you? Love you channel! Email me at marbinmusic@gmail.com if you can
@@marbinmusic I FBd you
Fortunately when I went it wasn't that expensive, and when I changed careers the degree still "counted." But you're absolutely right. The whole purpose of music school is to perpetuate the music school. And if you point that out, you're accused of negativity or sour grapes. Kudos for speaking the truth.
ABSOLUTELY GREAT ADVICE!!! I almost was gonna go, not only to Berkeley, but was also thinking about G.I.T. way back in 1981 right after I graduate high school in Chicago. My Grandfather was really not for that at all & convinced me not to go to music school at all because of the exspenc & no guarantee of getting work. So I just studied & practice on my own with my friends & did a lot better than I thought I would, & back in 1981, there was no UA-cam or anything, you just had to work hard. I lived off of music for quite a while, & loved it. I'm 60 years old, my wife & I live in SW Florida & I'm still gigging, playing 100% instrumental fusion music ( with some pop covers, instrumental versions) but my advice to anyone is go to trade school ( I did for HVAC ) have a solid career in the needs sector, not the want sector, & fund your music that way so nobody can pursuae you away with music industry lies & B.S. GREAT VIDEO MY FRIEND!!! Be safe, Rock On & God Bless.
All of this is absolutely true. Especially what you had to say in regards to the level 8 musicians that pretty much have a career the whole time that they’re enrolled at Berklee. I was there, graduated in ‘03. It’s just not fair.
I live in Europe and I just entered the conservatory. From age 3, I've been playing piano and singing. Before this study, I worked a lot and tried some other (creative) studies, but felt like I wouldn't get enough freedom to express myself.
The school I chose to study music is one of the only schools I know who truly care about music and making you into the individual. I have no debt because I can pay it off with all the work I'm doing. I'm actually doing well, and I hope this will blossom even more when i graduate.
I fully understand your concerns, I truly do. Some of my classmates don't even know how a 2-5-1 actually works (they just play it), but seeing myself so happy and finally being productive because I'm studying my passion is just the best feeling and drives me to continue in life.
I really do appreciate your honesty! You did not sugarcoat it and you said what needed to be said! In my state I live in a county with the most concentrated wealth in the entire state and the music stores here won’t even look at you as a potential music teacher unless you have a degree in music. And you’re absolutely correct, I’ve gotten tons of information right here on UA-cam… so thank you for saying I like it really is! By the way, your videos are fantastic and I really enjoy watching your channel!
You are right. In my case, since Berklee was a bridge between my life in Brazil and my move to the U.S., I can't regret it. I got a very good scholarship in '93. I came here and soon realized that 1 in 10 students were already ready for gigs on the first day, due to the number of talents from all over the world. I also noticed that what they offer doesn’t hold much value; most of the professors are at best competent and at worst suck the natural inspiration from the students. Plus, the environment is extremely competitive. By chance, I had some great experiences because I met some of my jazz idols who came for workshops, concerts, or to teach for a few days. In the end, although I entered as a jazz pianist (at 21), I left with a love for the more obscure classical music that I discovered in a class called "20th Century American Classical Music." Nowadays, it's worse because many think that if they can just play some chords and sing somewhat in tune, they can pursue a career. Phil Woods was right: music is for very few; he didn't recommend living off music.
Fast forward to 2024, and music continues to degrade each day. What’s truly worthwhile often consists of reworks from the golden age of sound. The same is true in classical music, where many draw inspiration from those who could write timeless pieces. The erosion of civilization is having a significant impact on the arts.
I'm just about to start my senior year in music school. For perspective I go to Rimon School Of Music, the equivalent to Berklee in Israel that also collaborates with Berklee in many things, even having a program that combines the two schools (a 2-3 years in Rimon, and then 2 years in Berklee with a small scholarship).
Tuition is way less expensive than any tuition in the US (something like 8K$ a year) and I pay with my disability aid (autism), and we get the school's own diploma which is equivalent to a Berklee undergrad degree, though you can combine it with a BA in arts with Israel's open university or a music education degree with an education university.
I combine production and guitar in a combined program. The production program is always evolving with new younger teachers coming in every couple of years with the older teachers having huge resumes working with big artists in the country. The program has even more focus on electronic production nowadays and even some courses in backline and live sound (I have some friends who haven't even finished the program and already got jobs in that through that course).
The guitar program is not focused on jazz but more so like a trade school for guitar. Both jazz and rock are required for a full guitar degree and you can choose either or if you combine with production or songwriting, with courses on many different genres (Latin, Flamenco, Blues, ethnic and the art of acompanying a singer on acoustic guitar) and many ensembles in many different genres (last year I took the Balkan ensemble and this year I'm gonna take the Hip hop ensamble for example). Only the private lessons and overall program exams have jazz requirements but some like me choose rock teachers who give you some loopholes.
There is a full on jazz institute in the school and I've been offered to go there but I refused.
There's also a songwriting program there where it almost all revolves around songwriting and perfoming your material competently, there have been more than a few popular artists even in recent years who went there! Netta Barzilay for example got a degree from there before she won Eurovision :)
I would say there's also the issue here with some tolerance for incompetency, but the culprits are very rare cases that usually don't last.
I'd say it's kinda hard to compare music school in Israel and music schools in the US, I think because the country is very small with everybody knowing everybody inside the industry, and with tuition being way less than in the US I think it's a much less of a straight up easy all encompassing answer and more so what fits you as a person, and with how things are going for me right now I think I made a good choice (in fact I'd say this choice saved my life).
@@Mr.Goldbar תודה על התגובה גבר :) ההבדל במחיר רציני בימינו.
@@marbinmusic וואי לזה לא ציפיתי!
אבל כן נראה לי שהקייס דיי שונה בין ישראל לאמריקה או אירופה.
יש אצלנו גם מסלול בין לאומי שסטודנטים מכל העולם באים לכאן (בעיקר יהודים אבל לא רק).
הרוב באים לשנה אבל יש כמה שאני מכיר שעשו עליה ונשארו, וגם חברה משם עשתה שנה כאן ברימון ואחרי זה עברה לברקלי. הייתי ממליץ ליהודים בחו"ל שחושבים ללכת ללמוד מוזיקה לשקול להגיע אלינו :)
Great content as always Dani.
Thanks bro
Go to the cheap state school and major in music if you can. It does have pluses. But everything he said he about the expensive schools is true. Best ideas, take private lessons with the masters and your heroes.
There is much more to music then performance. Berklee offers 12 majors all in music.
@@DV-mq5fv and? Many schools other areas of focus, also. Composition, Theory, Production, Education, Performance.
I can't argue with any of this as I would give the same advice to most who ask me the same question (is it worth it?)...but for me, it was the best time of my life, I became more of a musician than I could've ever dreamt to become and made friends for life I still keep up with 15 years later. Still in debt but I wouldn't have had the experience without going into it (small town IN kid here) and if I'd kept working my fast food job vs taking the risk who knows where I'd have ended up, likely a suicidal alcoholic. I've made all my income from playing guitar since graduation in 2011 and while teaching isn't the rock star dream, it is very rewarding and pays way better and more consistently than gigging does or ever did. I know I'm in the minority here but I wouldn't take back my experience at GIT for anything. Cheers mate. 🤘🤘🍻
You're still in debt 15 yrs later??? wow... I mean it sounds like you had a good time but that's a long debt .. like a mortgage minus the asset
@@EliBleuis his current job not at asset?
You're right. All teachers have known this for a long time. It doesn't just happen with jazz.
In flamenco the same shit happens.
Private schools seek profit and the public conservatory has problems with the curriculum, professors and subjects.
What is studied does not correspond to reality.
100% agree with you.
Like everything in life, what you get out of it depends on what you put into it. When I was 22 I let a negative post graduate student poison me with his negativity, today 35 years later I regret the rash decision I took under his influence. Give it your best shot and follow through on your dreams.
When I was 17 (finished HS a year early), I went to a music school in Chicago for 2 semesters, & after getting an offer to tour (which required taking a semester off) I went to my school's dean for advice. He told me if touring/playing for a living was what I truly wanted to do with my life, I shouldn't just take the semester off, I should fully drop out & not come back. He went on to explain to me that music degrees aren't worth the paper they're printed on, unless you want to teach academically & are willing to take on the debt that comes with a 6 year graduate degree (& even then, there's tons of competition & most people get a teaching job by relocating to a smaller city or suburb). Obviously none of that appealed to me, so he told me to enjoy my 1st tour & do everything I can to network into another, I did. Some of the best advice I ever received in my life, I went on to support myself as a touring/gigging musician for well over a decade, got a little lucky, & ended up co-owning (with my partner) a house before I turned 30
Cool ... Did you open for any other bands who became famous ?
I did a year at Beeklee. I entered Beeklee a dedicated guitarist who was a nervous young boy. I left as a confident and capable musician with unshakable confidence in my musical ability that wasn't based on my ego but in my rock solid commitment to putting the work in to do whatever I needed to do.
I had an awesome time at the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama. Did my MA in Jazz and learned from some of my favourite players who couldn’t have been more supportive and helpful. Huw Warren taught me piano, he’s a monster player and gave so much of himself. Yury Goloubev taught me more about ear training and transcription than I thought was possible. Ears like a bat. Anyway, it was a great experience and helped me become a way better player. Maybe it’s different in the USA or other colleges here, but we had constant feedback on all aspects of our playing. I lecture in music at the University of Winchester in the UK and try to pass on as much of my experience as a pro as I can. The one thing I’d change there is tougher auditions. Colleges are really struggling financially now and are taking anyone who can pay, especially overseas students. On a final note, so many of the pro musicians I work with are graduates from UK colleges. They’re the new backbone of music here in the Bristol music scene. It’s not all doom and gloom. That said, one of my band mates who’s making waves on the scene in the UK, Charlie Allen, never studied in college! It’s not for everyone and it’s probably cheaper here due to caps on fees. Would I go now if I was starting out? Definitely not. Everything I need to know is online now, most of it for free! Bless. X
Totally agree! I m a respected guitarteacher in The Hague Holland and I never went to a ,very expensive, college. When I was a kid I worn out the recordplayer to find out those Neil Young chords and tried to steal as much musical info from friends as I could. After aprox . 6 years of teaching myself how to play the guitar I was able to play popmusic but also classical guitar at an intermediate level. After that I had many very good private teachers as well as in classical music as in jazz. I learned a lot from those guys but in the end you have to do it all yourself. Study study and...study. It has nothing to do with expensive schools. To become a good guitarist the most important things are knowing what to study and very hard work. And..... dedication. You have to love what you do and do it every day. I play the guitar for over 50 years now. The last 25 years as a guitarteacher at a musicschool and I still love what I do. Besides that I have 2 bands. One jazz and one gypsyjazz. And altough i'm by far not the best (gypsy) jazzplayer in the world I still love to play and to learn. Every f@#€%n day. Also from you Marbin.
I got private lesson off a good jazz teacher when in was young for 2 years. which sent me down the road to play 5 - 6 nights a week for 30 years.
I came to this conclusion when I went to study music in North Texas in the late 90s. People need to hear this
Have a masters degree in music......have been able to "squeak" out a living teaching and playing in Las Vegas for 22 years, but have moved several times and am now in a midsize town starting over and struggling to make it work. Your words are wise.......it's a tough road. If your willing to sacrifice some things and wear a lot of hats its possible but not for most.
Well said.
Greetings from Italy.
Just found your channel and I love it already. Awesome info.
I have a masters in music and I teach high school guitar. I advise 99.9% of my students not to study music! I'm really lucky to have a job that relates to my degree, the reality isn't the same for many people with fine arts degrees. I'm enjoying your content, and brutal honesty!
If it’s so awful and you can’t recommend it, the lead by example and quit the job that asks this if you. Jesus.
I am 73 yrs. young and study music continuously, self-taught, and I don't need no stinking papers. What it takes is time and discipline.
@gregjohnson6329 Going through music school and ending up as a teacher sounds horrible to me.
I think goes with a lot of college studies. So much of college is not necessary. It's just a waste of money. Not all, but a lot.
Yup
1000% Agree
dang this was pure wisdom, even just from a normal, non-music life aspect
We were lucky in that the first place our son started learning to play piano was focused on building basic theory knowledge and then putting it to use in live performances. The "school" was a rickety ex-city building with staircases going everywhere like the Winchester House with 30 rooms. Their auditorium was the old municipal garage. That literally set the stage for his learning from then on: focus on what's needed to get better, then apply it. He's been teaching since he was 17 and now, at age 20, plays the piano bar at a local five-star and does everything from jazz to pop and orchestral work. He also plays guitar, learned to dance, and takes singing lessons. Oh, and he learned how to weld- just in case.
Very interesting and I agree with most of what you said. I'm a Berklee graduate who followed the mus. ed path and am on the edge of retiring after 35 years as an educator. It worked out for me for a few reasons. First Berklee was not outrageously expensive before the 2000's. In 1986, tuition was $6000, with room and board, $10000. I lived off campus but totaling all my expenses, a 4 year education cost me $48000 (and I only had $3000 in school loans out of that). To think the same education (and I can't speak of the present quality) is $70000 a year is INSANE. The Mus-ed courses trained me fairly well, though as a public school teacher, it isn't real until you get in front of group of students, no matter how much training you do. As far as musicality, Berklee did not teach me how to play guitar, it may have planted some ideas for direction but I was one of those people who really couldn't play very well. I called it the Berklee School of $$ for a long time, because they should have thrown me out on my ass for barely being able to play anything. But I did get ideas and really learn harmony and theory, there were a number of teachers who were amazing and inspired me to be a better musician and human being. You mentioned having to take Art History, and almost 40 years later that's the class that I think changed my relation to art, music and life, the professor (RIP Henry Tate) moved me in a direction that I've inspired to be and hopefully gave some of that back to my students. That being said over the last 15 years, my playing has stepped up and what was shared with me at Berklee still plays in my head and is part of the musician who I am now. I gig frequently and in retirement that's going to be adding income, and I really look forward to doing what I didn't do in high school, sitting down and practicing many hours and continuing to get better and better.
I went to UNT. I learned a lot more from the other students than I did from the instructors. I had a realization one day that Miles Davis wouldn’t have the chops to be in the One O’ Clock lab band and Billie Holiday wouldn’t be accepted into the jazz vocal department, yet their work is taught. It struck me as bizarre. I put together a Zappa band for fun and at the first rehearsal the second guitarist (who was in the One O’ Clock at the time), asked me who I was and why I wasn’t in his spot. I told him I wasn’t a good enough reader. It was a silly time.
Wow I was waiting for someone to come with this absolutely true
Wow!! You seriously laid it out!! I'm bookmarking this video!! You totally nailed the scam aspect of music school vs practicing, studying, hustling and gigging on your own!!
I'm a nobody from nowhere that graduated from music school in 2003 and spent a decade playing in a US military band. Young people listen up, this guy is giving you the straight truth. Nothing but facts here.
When I auditioned for a military band, no one cared about my music degree. They simply wanted to know if I could play and get the gig. Also, isn't it interesting that at music school we spend so much time studying people that never attended music school? I have a hard time thinking of why anyone would attend music school at this point. The orchestral world is probably different (difficult to get a garage orchestra together), but for jazz and commercial music? Just go start doing the thing. Watch this guy's channel. Watch Rick Beato. Learn everything you can, get on a tour bus, go play at Disney land, cruise ships, whatever. But going into crushing debt to study with people who you can take private lessons from like he said in this video? It just doesn't add up
"difficult to get a garage orchestra together", actually it wouldn't be that hard. Just a bigger band with slightly different instruments. Not wearing a tuxedo when you play does not mean you lose the ability to play the notes!
Love this guy no bs and totally saying what I was thinking. People on UA-cam are doing crazy it’s like free college
I wish I saw this video 10 years ago. I took lessons the private instrument teacher at a few local music programs before I enrolled. When I was applying to all of them, he pulled strings to make sure I only got accepted at the name-known state school that I could get a major scholarship with. He said that it didn’t matter what the major was, I could do anything with a degree from the state school, but a degree from the “famous” music programs was worthless.
He was right. After failing to get anywhere I music I found a new avenue in life and I don’t play anymore. I only really went to music school because I was a lazy teenager and music was all I cared about in high school. My parents pushed me to do because they were failed artists and wanted their kid to live out their dream for them, and they felt everyone has to go to college for something or other.
I’m glad my teacher was looking out for me. He was a good man. I don’t think any other music school professors are like that anymore.
I studied out of high school with the late, great jazz bassist Gary Peacock. He was a bit [make sound of simultaneous humming and whistling] -"spiritual" in focus, so I also studied with Seattle local pro players for technical concepts I had never picked up by ear. I had been touring and playing pro for about 8 years before I went to Berklee. I spent my own money, saved from picking and crooning a year at a country music piano bar, so it was very dear money. My first semester in Boston in the challenging freshman program was great: superior profs, a rented new Yamaha upright at home to practice on, a weekend wedding band gig, and generally fun learning drop 2 voicings and such. After the first semester came the winter of my discontent: conductor prof who seldom showed, always late and never called; a prof who thought it a good idea to have the poorest readers in the course plod through the text of a coffee table book on jazz composers, an impossible transfer situation to move on to the next ear training level. It took a health toll, so I withdrew and learned to work the saxophone at John Payne sax school. No regrets; one semester at music school was just right.
Great points! What about courses with no tuition fees tho?
Does this apply for classical music programs too in your opinion?
I had a different experience with college grads in NYC. Almost everyone I played with who graduated from Berklee or The New School or what have you were really good jazz musicians. And very rarely I could meet someone who didn't have some kind of formal music education who could really play. At least on the jazz scene.
Harsh, bordering on cynical, but true. I graduated from GIT in the late 70s… One of the first classes, when the teachers included the likes of Tommy Tedesco. I wouldn’t trade the experience for the world, but have no illusions that it in any way prepared me to be a Musician. after banging around for a few years and learning that I disliked poverty, I turned my attention to a career that would give me a good standard of living and allow me time to pursue music as something I love, not something I had to do. I’m now retired,and studying music with an intensity I never had in my youth. I frankly learned more in a couple of years at a wonderful local community college program, studying music theory and ear training/solfage. I have no illusions about playing in front of adoring crowds, but publish my modest offerings occasionally on UA-cam and approach it as the personal, spiritual endeavor that I think it really is.
Love when someone speaks the truth.
I am exactly who this video is talking about. I have a B.A. degree in Jazz guitar studies. I took a couple guitar lessons in high school and played in a band with buddies who told me where to put my fingers. I had no idea what I was doing nor could I do it without extreme strenuous practice. After two years of college I HAD to declare a major. I met some killer players and I learned that there was even such a thing as majoring in music. Immediately I knew what I wanted to do. I then learned that I had to audition. Why don’t math majors or business majors have to audition? I was fortunate enough to be allowed one semester of lessons to prep for the audition. I worked my ass off and somehow didn’t make mistakes at mg audition and was now officially a music major. With only 2-3 years left I had to fit an entire 4 year curriculum of classes in order to graduate. Many sleepless nights, some nights even staying at the music building and bringing toiletries with me to sleep in the practice room. Before even graduating I developed nerve damage in my hands. I some how graduated and making a living performing is simply not possible. I worked so incredibly hard to learn as much as I could and do the best I could and injured myself doing so. I stopped snowboarding because I was scared to death to break an arm or hand. Go figure. I’m now 36 and waiting tables and bartending trying to get by. I don’t regret it because I would not have put that time and work in otherwise but this video is 1000000000000% correct. Find a good teacher, study and practice privately. Save the money, buy a home, be happy. DO NOT MAJOR IN MUSIC AT COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES! College is such a scam it should be illegal to charge as much as they do.
Well I’m watching this a couple months too late haha. I actually just took a break from working a corporate job the last 4 years to spend some time to work on my guitar playing. Although I’m not doing a full 4 year degree, rather a just 1 year program at MI (online) and I’m on scholarship, it’s still a substantial financial investment I have to make. While I’ve definitely been disillusioned on a few ideals I had about music school, I have been genuinely enjoying my time and have been pretty encouraged to keep practicing and leveling myself up. But this video has really helped me reassess my expectations of how much I can expect this education to help me and highlighted areas I actually have to invest in if I want to make a career in the industry. Appreciate you sharing and being honest 🙏
My first day in the jazz program at William Paterson Univ, jazz great Rufus Reid told all the newcomers that 99% of us would never make it as musicians. He was right. But the 1% who did; they made it huge: drummer Bill Stewart, saxophonist Eric Alexander. But I agree with Dani that those uber-talented artists were headed for greatness regardless of school. Fortunately, I had the foresight to focus on the music business tract and became very successful. No regrets!
Great video and on point.
Correct. Wanna be a teacher running the grift? Go to school. Wanna be a good musician? Get your ass in the shed and don't leave until you're rich
Thanks for this. The people who need to see it are parents. That music school degree won’t qualify as post-HS education for most real world jobs. The story at Berklee in the 80’s was if you were any good you got scooped up by a working band in the first year. Just like college sports, if you make. It to graduation you probably weren’t that good. Paraphrasing Zappa: if you want to get laid go to college. If you want an education go to a library.
This is so true !!!!! G-D bless you for putting this out. I'm a GIT(M I) graduate . Conclusion ; no one gets better because of these institutions.
I will definitely enroll in your music school.
Steve Bailey who was an artist-in-residence at a university for many many years said “major in Business because you’ll have more time to practice” and it’s true, when I have to learn all these songs for gigs I don’t have time to practice like normal I have to learn these songs.. and those music students have to do the same thing too
I did a summer session at Berklee in 1974. I skipped most of the classes and jammed all night in the basement studios. If you went to Beeklee you know what I am talking about. Probably learned more in jams but a degree would be nice.
My guitar teachers were jazz snobs. None of them had slept for weeks or had bathed. Thet spent more energy putting down Larry Coryell than teaching. I actually met the great Bill Levitt. He told me to ditch my spanking new Les Paul and get an archtop. I did no such thing. Walking around Boston was fun. Saw Red Sox games and visted Boston's top cultural center. The Combat Zone.
All in all, a great summer. Learned how to alternate pick there. This is huge for a guitar player, Les Paul or not!
Thanks for the vid. Made me laugh.
So what's your advice for me since i want to be a musicologists with zero music experience.
@@edidiongokoro5212 have better goals
let's say I record a song and release it. Will people know if I have a degree or talent? If I play a simple C major, will it sound different if I have a diploma?
Truth. For me it took most of a lifetime to discover the point of music, for me personally. It's about what you give to others, not about feeding your ego. I'm in my little local band, and we play our little gigs and if people get something from it, that's a win for me and I love playing, just to play. The pressure of making a career and fulfilling some very unlikely dream killed it for me for too long of a time and I dropped playing completely for many years out of discouragement. Big mistake.
Truth teller!!
Superbly told, cutting and funny
Very funny and very true!
What about the connections u make? Isn't music school 50% learning and 50% connections?
The quality of connections isn’t great
(Preface: I do not attend Berklee; I attend a liberal arts college, with a conservatory, and I am in BOTH domains.) It's very simple. Berklee (and probably some other institutions) are factories. They churn out musicians. Several thousand per year. Now, don't get me wrong, I think Berklee is great-I know numerous people who went there and became successful. I also know several former Berklee faculty who are EXCELLENT musicians. So please don't misunderstand. To this video, I will say you have a point, but your point is not accurate across every college, or with every person. My university combines both a nationally-ranked college and a conservatory, and I can (and am required to) participate in both areas. I do not feel scammed, nor do I feel any regret for my college decision (I am a sophomore as of writing this comment).
"When I was 18 my father was so ignorant I could barely stand to be in the same room as him. When I came back home at 22 and saw him again I couldn't believe how wise he'd become in those years."
Wow I appreciate your candor. Seems to be a standard of higher education these days. I see the same thing in my industry of HVAC. They put these kids in school, put them in debt, and teach them nothing. They come out so unprepared .