Music Degrees are a WASTE of time
Вставка
- Опубліковано 2 сер 2023
- I spent the better part of a decade getting music degrees, ultimately only to end up doing something that isn't directly related to what I learned there. So what do and don't they teach you in music school, and would I do it all again?
FREE Practical Guide to Composition eBook:
bit.ly/FREEcompositionguide
FREE Basics of Synthesis Workshop:
bit.ly/synthworkshop
Become a Member to support the channel:
bit.ly/JNJmembership
My Sample Packs: store.fracturedcapstan.com/
My music:
Music Channel: / @jamesonnathanjonesmusic
Spotify: bit.ly/JNJSpotify
Apple Music: bit.ly/JNJAppleMusic
Bandcamp: bit.ly/JNJBandcamp
///////
Socials and Stuff:
/ jamesonnathanjones
/ jnathanjones
Video Equipment and Stuff:
Main Camera: amzn.to/3Y6KF2q
Other Camera: amzn.to/3I12Xwl
Wide Angle Lens: amzn.to/3HD3NOD
35mm Lens: amzn.to/3x0jL0n
SD Card: amzn.to/3JLurYu
Camera Tripod: amzn.to/3HDuYJh
Synth Table: amzn.to/40wZ8X0
Quick Release Camera Mounts: amzn.to/3X8g03u
Overhead Camera Arm: amzn.to/3Yu1Fj6
Overhead Tripod: amzn.to/3HDhyNo
Green Screen: amzn.to/3E7T4Ll
Ring Light: amzn.to/3JHhbUr
Organizer Shelf: amzn.to/3JLrWoY
RGB Floor Lamp: amzn.to/3l8cSY9
Desk Chair: amzn.to/3lfLd7v
Mic Stands: amzn.to/3Yqr4dt
Floor Edison Lamp: amzn.to/3YaxvBB
there's only one thing I love more than the intersection of the academic study of music and the artistic application of advanced music theory on technology: hearing the subject discussed in a mild southern accent. 💜
I think this video leaves out the fact that having 3 years to solely focus on your passion without working full time, can advance your musical skills 2-3 times as fast as doing a couple hours every day after a 9-5.
Plus going to college/university is a character building experience, I grew up and evolved faster in those 3 years than ever before. Was thrown into experiences that taught me about myself and about how to treat people that I'd of never learned living in my parents house back home.
Although how student debt works here is different, you only pay a small portion of your salary if you earn over £26,000 per year, if you earn any less you never pay it off (of course the aim is to earn over the threshold). It also gets completely forgiven after 30 years.
Very interesting insight into the classical world however! I study audio engineering & music production, switched from psychology and it was probably the best decision I ever made.
Good point. That's what I was trying to get at with the "benefits of specialization" section of the video. It's never a bad thing to master something, even if it isn't directly what you end up doing.
For me, it very much was worth it. aside from it helping me understand how to make music in a much deeper way, even on a downer note, having a BA helped me get better paying jobs. Of course I am not sure the plan b side of a degree is as important as it used to be. I got a degree in electronic music, Audio engineering, and jazz composition. All of these skills in one form or another have been very helpful off and on my entire life. I may not have made a living with music, I have made side hustle money and played music most of my life. It saved me from suicidal depression and gave me life experiences I would never have thought possible. so yeah, it was worth it.
This is great and fantastic! However, I don't think that this is what this video is about. If you happen to want to make a living in music other than as a university teacher/researcher/classical musician, a music degree is fairly useless. I gave up on one of the most prestigious jazz program in the world - Saint-Laurent college in Montreal, recognized by Berklee, winners of the Int. Jazz Fest. big band competitions 1 zazillion times in a row, etc - and am more successful in the industry than any of the people who wanted to get in who were studying with me.
This isn't to brag, just to say that a lot of those people put a literal toxic amount of sacrifices and energy for a piece of paper that honestly will *not* really help to get a career as a pro musician. You may lend a job as a teacher, but even then, if you teach private your reputation is what makes you get student, and you get this by playing or marketing yourself as a great teacher.
I never witnessed in my life anyone asking a private teacher or pro musician what their degree was, and was often surprised to see equivalent or better skilled players alongside the most promising students with no formal music education background at all!
I'm a proud field-learned sound engineer and a pro drummer. It might not be easy, but I manage to get a good life for myself so far, and next month I'm playing my first 20K+ audience with multiple important News channels for the Ukrainian festival of Montreal which will be a major stepping stone for my career. I practice in a room that used to belong to Gino Vanelli and hang out with people who have the power to make about anyone talented and committed enough into someone with a great career.
It took me 20 years, but what I found out is, most people who did took a degree in music weren't playing seriously since they were kids and aren't cut for/do not wish to actually be pro (they may think they do however). It's mostly like professional sport, most pro musicians were born in a musician family like me and started forging their skills to achieve mastery in their early to mid-20's, and no 3 years program can make you achieve this. If anything, Berklee will greatly help you to network, and I wish I could've gotten in, but my ADHD and autism prevented me from achieving an academical record similar to my music abilities.
Anyway, thanks for sharing! Wishing you the best, JB
Hello sweet soul friend
How are you doing today?
Great video! My own experience is very similar. I knew in my last year of grad school, where I began in theory and morphed into musicology, that I would not be happy in an academic career. That was most powerfully clarified when I served as a grad student member of a faculty search committee. My undergrad degree was in piano performance. It was all going swimmingly until arthritis burned it all away. I still made a career out of performing, mostly in theater where my reduced level of virtuosity wasn’t an issue. I also did a lot of cocktail piano and big band jazz. Improvisation in all of those venues allowed me to choose what I play - not an option with Beethoven. So I found a meandering career and stayed in music. I absolutely loved grad school and I loved engaging with difficult piano pieces I loved - both technically and spiritually. So, like you, I have no regrets about my academic career. It informs everything I do and think about music. Deep study of counterpoint and music analysis were the shapers of my taste; those studies led me to the qualities in music I most fully appreciate and love. I also got through without debt with scholarships and fellowships. I took away the same life lessons you described. And I would offer similar advice: Unless you’re sure that academia is where you want to live permanently, or that a concert career is truly appealing and viable, don’t go into debt. Thanks again for your thoughtful views!
I am glad you became as good as you are with music, based on your training. Your work really stands apart because of it. I think about Trent Reznor, who spent a lot of years of his youth learning music and it really shows all these years later. There are snobs in both worlds, but I think having one foot in each world like you do, makes your music as powerful as it is.
Well Done! so glad i went to school in the 90s. affording school today would be so overwhelming.
Yeah it has gotten worse even since I came through. Brutal.
Thanks for this video, great takeaways. I don't regret getting a music degree, but I think it's because while I was there I understood early on that it was a bubble and the preparation I had to do for the "real world" was ultimately up to me. While I was in music school I was doing jazz performance for drums, but also teaching myself about recording and exploring music that wasn't popular with other students (IDM, experimental, ambient etc...) and engaging with a community online that was into the niche stuff I was into. Although Berklee had its share of snobbery, there was a freeness there that allowed for some different ideas. I had a tough time finding teachers and students who were into a wide variety of things; most had tunnel vision with either rock, classical or jazz, but one day I showed up to a lesson with a new teacher and he had a Stars of the Lid shirt on, and I knew it was a good sign :) He ended up being my most important instructor, he was really demanding and difficult, but very encouraging, we talked about all sorts of music, he wanted to listen to the music I was making outside of school and helped me gain confidence I was on a worthwhile path. We still check in with each other once a year (graduated in '06). Music school for me was about learning how to work with people, what I wanted and what I didn't and getting put into difficult situations and overcoming challenges (performance, workload, social politics). These are tough lessons to learn out in the real world, but academia allowed me to have these experiences in a more controlled way. But yeah, it's a hell of a lot of money.
I went to NEC in Boston, and worked with geniuses. One of which I formed a piano trio with. I had my first string quartet recorded there. I got a lot out of it: I made sure it paid off.
I always found it so wild that schools don’t really teach “how make music”. At the end of the day, your ability to create and perform on a single instrument gives you unique strengths though 💪 Incredible that you got through it with no debt!
Fantastic advice, especially for those of us who don’t do as well with traditional education. Finding a private teacher who clicked with me was the difference between me not being interested in learning music at all, and then working to have my entire adult life revolve around it 🎶
@@frankgrimes7388 Lol you can absolutely teach people how to make music, I do it all the time! It has to be one on one though, and it involves digging into their interests and helping people discover what excites them. Of course there's also matters of instrument proficiency, studying composition and a bit of music theory. I agree it would be nearly impossible to teach in a group / school setting.
How many schools do you know what teach? Most academic programs are performance related, so the main purpose of the program is to learn to... perform music. That does not mean that you can't learn a lot about composing, arranging and production if you want to. At the school I teach at, all of those things are even mandatory for all students.
@@eyvindjr That’s awesome I’m jealous! Where at? At most schools in FL (where I went anyway) those things had been gutted entirely. Their “programs” were just regurgitating what’s written on simple sheet music 🙈 My students in NC don’t have it much better, from what they tell me.
Thanks a lot for offering your perspective on this topic, it meant a lot to me. Being in a situation currently where a long academic degree (PhD) has led me to no particular point of stability, it was especially encouraging to hear your thoughts on how to look back on the path one ended up taking and thinking about how that in particular shapes one's likes, skills and outlook
Excellent synopsis. Thank you.
Excellent points, great video 👨🎓!
Hooo man.. That bit about the time before knowing the difference between a midi controller & a synthesizer... Totally threw me back to the day I bought an Alesis Keytar for my little instrument store/repair shop, not realizing it was just a midi controller, not a standalone instrument. I was so accustomed to things like Kaossilators, modular synths, minibrute, etc.. What's funny though is the fact that I had been Using fruityloops for like ten years and had never used a controller lol.. fast forward and now I'm surrounded by a polybrute, microfreak, Kaossilator pro+, Akai Force, OP1, OPZ, Roli, Roland guitar synth, and plenty of other things I bought in lieu of household essentials & bare necessities. I may have been starving but man did I sound cool doing it.
You get out what you put in. Yes, generally the certificate is a waste of time, however learning about music and having a nurturing space in which to immerse yourself in music is incredibly valuable and empowering. I spent 4 years at music school. I have never needed the diploma, BUT I spent four years playing music everyday with people who were much better than me. I wasn't just playing in the evening after my day job. I made connections with other gifted musicians of my generation. I also use some of the tools I learnt everyday. I wrote notation on sessions to help me play a song perfectly after only just hearing it.
Hi Jonathan, in my personal ranking, this is the second 1st place video you put out, after the one where you newinvented the word „forensic“ . Thanks so much for putting this together and putting it out. All the best!
I had to learn everything myself, music theory, at the moment I'm learning to write music on paper. Every time someone tried to teach me, it wouldn't stay with me, I would forget it the same moment and I grew up in an environment of musicians. My father, my sister and family friends. Everything I learned was with a computer, so I can't play anything with my hands, at least not as good as I would like to and that was only possible with the mental support of the environment I grew up in. Music thought me to never give up.
My Theory/Comp degree was not a waste for me at all. Because of it, I’m not dependent on assisting plugins that figure out the key of songs or chords for me…quantize, auto tune, create drum parts or harmonies for me. I’m not restricted to five chord songs because of it either. It is such a relief to know I can fly with my own wings. Also the personal gratitude I get from knowing I created it all is major.
Of course I do realize that all of those skills can be learned outside a formal environment and I have great respect for those who pushed forward on the path alone, but for me, at least, two years of required ear training would have been difficult to fabricate by myself considering how distracted and undisciplined I can be. I’m not putting down anyone who uses those tools but it’s nice to know that if someone asks me what key their song is in, I can help them.
Your story mirrors mine exactly. Very cathartic to hear today
This is spot on man… i had the same experience but from the jazz side of academia. I learned a lot about harmony, counterpoint, and melody with my degree which I use everyday, but none of that actually got me work.
Music academia is only taught as a way to continue the tradition to teach to the next generation…
I learned everything I now know as a composer for mixed-media from trial and error… I didn’t know how to use a computer to record, I didn’t know what compression was, EQ’s, anything…
I was fortunate to go to school for free with the help of a scholarship, but if I had to do it over again, I’m not sure if I would.
Most things I feel can be learned from an apprenticeship program and learning on the job. IMO the most important things, listening to music, studying the “rules of music,” and understanding how to produce music can be taught that way.
The things that you really need to have to be successful in this industry can’t be taught (tenacity, a sense of wonder, and the ability to think outside of the box).
as a fellow MM in theory/comp, I cannot agree with you more. ❤ subscribed
The strings coming in around 6:25 - absolutely heart wrenchingly gorgeous!
Also, a really good reflection on education. I have a similar experience with my bachelors in cello - I find myself fascinated in very different musical fields - at least making it - but I learned so many peripheral skills and mysical ideas that contribute to my processes and musical sensibilities far more than I would ever have gotten from anywhere else. Same with how my music is certainly different than others in my fields of interest.
Absolutely great video!
Thanks!
Great video that I think could apply in general to most academic pursuits. Learning how to learn and be disciplined is indeed the most valuable skill anyone can have. Btw, nice Jeux d'eau.
Fantastic and sobering exploration of this topic! As someone who teaches music composition on the college level (as well as here on UA-cam), I agree that you can learn so much outside of the university system, and also that most college music programs are woefully ill-equipped to prepare students for functioning careers beyond just teaching.
I also super appreciate how you outlined the less tangible benefits of getting a degree (any degree really), and like you, I don't regret my undergrad and graduate experience at all!
The legend speaks again. Stay humble friend.
I compose musique concrète works, but I am also a student of music theory. I love learning about the principles of harmony, melody, and rhythm, and I find that this knowledge helps me to create more interesting and expressive compositions. I also practice scales and chords daily, which helps me to develop my technical skills and to improve my ear for sound/music.
If we are satisfied with how we are now, we should not regret any part of the path we took to get here. Life, especially in the arts, is not easy. When I was a kid, I was fascinated by both the Spanish guitar and electronic music. At a music swap meet, about 1980, I and my brother bought a modular synthesizer (PAIA) with all the patch cords, and I was hooked. In college I studied computer science and economics (smart move for survival) and now am retired at 60 and able to devote my time to the interests I lacked time to pursue while working, including electronic music. However, my lack of keyboard, repertoire, and composition training makes me continuously hit limits to my ability to compose what I hear within my mind. I do think that my autodidactic (self-taught) path does give me an advantage in having an original way of making music that usually does not conform to the sounds so dominant within the electronic/sample/loop/playlist driven styles prevalent today.
Do remember to have gratitude that you (we) have our own unique path we took to reach were we are and that we are in the fun and engaging endeavor of creating our own special music, even if sometimes it seems like the music 'world' or our abilities (or lack thereof) are mismatched to what we want to pursue.
While satisfied with my professional accomplishments, it is always wise to have some level of introspection. There is no improvement without critical review of actions and outcomes.
There are very few unique experiences in the human journey. Just thing that are new to you.
Im starting my bachelor in Musicology in a few weeks, this video is nothing short of cosmic timing.
I absolutely LOVED studying music for my Bachelors and Masters degrees. Especially theory, orchestration, conducting, vocal pedagogy etc.
Don't forget about chords. Knowing chords is, I imagine, one of the benefits of formal training.
I agree with your descriptions. I did a BA in music and yes all of the Other musics were not even mentioned. The students themselves seemed to be the doorkeepers into these realms. For instance, Jazz was considered definitely below par. So I came to this music after I left. So learning a BA for me was useful and it taught me how to teach myself - same as you have described.
I thoroughly enjoyed my studies and would do them all over again. With added hindsight I would have broadened my skill set further but I wonder if I would have the time. It was pretty intense at times.
I think music education is vital. On the other hand, is the time and debt worth it to the average student at the university level. I would say no. If you’re on a full ride scholarship, enjoy the ride, absorb as much as possible, and find your path. If not, it probably is a bad investment of both time and money. You can seek your path by alternative means.
Thanks for your honesty.
I can't answer that but here is a perspective is almost always the optimal answer. Nothing is perfect everyone is different and JNJ is a Badass!!
Man this is one of the best videos I have seen!!!! Thanks a lot!!!! I always wanted to study music, but at music school the wanted to know how good I was to accept me. Man!!! That was the reason I wanted to study, because I was not good 😂😂😂. At the end I ended up studying medicine, and it paid off. Si I took piano lesssons with a private teacher, then took some courses online and now I Can play jazz, which was What I always wanted. Then I got into synthetizers and my music took a way different path. Now I do what comes to my mind, record it and enjoy it 😊
Interesting video and lots of food for thought! I read through your free composition ebook and it’s great - lots of really nice ideas to help approach composition differently 👍
Are there any courses or books you would recommend to follow up with to continue with the composition techniques you mentioned in the ebook?
Thanks 🙏
Thanks and glad you enjoyed it! I may be working on a follow up to the ebook as we speak :)
I messed with music as a child but got Reason back in 2006, didn't get a midi keyboard till 2020, I just drew everything in to a good effect. Haven't put enough effort into turning that into money making.
I ended up eschewing getting a music degree as I knew I was more into the production end of things as well having been heavily tutored directly by my band teachers in composing from nearly day one of band class. My path definitely hasn't been linear through music especially given I got such severe burn out at one point it took me years to get back into the flow of things and wanting to write regularly. I would of probably been more into the idea of getting a music related degree if I actually liked to teach but I don't and even in high school I was working part time as a jobbing musician playing gigs so a degree felt unneeded to me.
Great Video. It resonated with me, coming from a similar background-Doctorate in music to learning digital audio production through online resources in order to produce music for film and video games. And now: youtube tutorials :)
I agree with the benefits that music school provided but was it worth it? Almost certainly not. I hope in the future, more exploration of digital audio production is encouraged for young people. It's definitely MUCH more accessible now with free DAW's, VST's, and sample libraries. There will always be a place for instrumental performance but certainly far fewer people should be devoting so much time/energy/money to it. Most people I know with performance degrees aren't making a living performing. Many of them are extremely talented and creative, so I can't help but feel they were pointed down the wrong path.
I'm studying music production but also interested to social media and content creation. I believe someone who study art can work more than just what he studied
For me, it has been incredibly worth it. The main benefit: A big group of music friends who are focussed on becoming better musicians - we've formed great bands, collaborated to make better music, and had so much fun exploring music, playing gigs, etc. The contacts have been invaluable.
If this guy makes his own background music, he is a bad ass! I wish i could learn to use chords the way he does.
Thanks man!
@@JamesonNathanJones where can I learn to use these chords
As someone who got into making electronic music as a young teenager, I spent my whole lifetime producing without a real understanding of music theory & it was a constant hinderence in the songwriting process. Although the theory is not required & is often set aside in composing, not really understanding the theory creates a lot of guesswork in the process of composing song parts. Now at 42, I'm once again trying to buckle down and get a solid grasp on theory so I don't have to shoot blindly in the dark when I start a song (or when trying to figure out how to improve the parts). I can't help but feel that if I had learned all of this at the start, I would have come much further with my songwriting & I would be much happier with my output (even if still not successful as career)
For me it was worth it because of the people I met. I met tons of friends, and that took me into the path of my current career as a software developer.
Still, playing and making music is huge part of my life, even though it’s not my current job.
I walked away from a full scholarship on cello because the final destination would be a music teacher. Well, I do not have the gift of teaching. I really wanted to study computers that were just emerging in 1985 but my scholarship would not allow that path. I also I wanted to write and play music. So I went on the road making more than my professors. I followed my passion and interests in lieu of the suggestions of others and have no regrets. Life is too short to follow convention. Be yourself and realize your passion. The ups and downs we experience are the fruits of the journey. Enjoy the ride.
"A less expensive time..." I chuckled because I know EXACTLY what you mean.
Good one. How do you search for your style?
Great story. For those of us who learned music late in life, 4 or more years in music college seems like a luxury and learning one or more instruments to a professional level has probably been more of a challenge, especially without a dedicated teacher. But maybe, if I had learned piano as a child, I might have gotten bored with it and quite instead of having the passion to play every day. Keep up the great work...I see your subscriber count has really taken off.
After viewing this video I decided to join your network (from the Netherlands). I needed to get over my "imposter syndrome" first ..... Thank you.
Education is a stepping stone to the inner you.
baloney. education has devolved into a tax and exploitation of the young, gate keeping and barriers to the working class, and meaningless accreditation.
Wow. I think we had a similar trajectory coming though schools of music, composition teachers, moving towards electronic music/production etc. I've literally had the same thought of being thankful for music school but also I think the purpose the school had in mind for me is not exactly what I got out of it. I got into music because of video games (NES 1980's style) and I thought "music school" would gear me towards that, but no. That being said, I learned a ton from studying composition.....just not my desired application that study.
'Relationships and good work matter more than a degree'. Amen.
Does anyone know the name of the strings piece coming in at 6:25?
I think someone misses the point that the transfer of skills to a slightly (in this case) will automatically apply. Doing a degree required a level of intelligence. This also transfers to skills you might need to acquire.
listen to Captain beefhearts " trout mask replica". I dont know why. Just sorta wonder what you might think.
They tricked me with music scholarship but cut it after the first year. It was ripoff and I’m 1/2 a million dollars in debt for my DMA in classical guitar. I loved every minute of it but it’s because I didn’t care about my future and was just in the moment. Had zero guidance about having a career and all I wanted to do was play.
I wish I learned more music theory (for example how to write counterpoint) or solfège, but I manage somewhat at my hobbyist level. As a professional computer programmer (also self thought but much more at advanced levels since it is also the way I get paid) at least I can very easy wrap my head around algorithmic composing techniques and eurorack. I
"Bro" are you f*cking kidding me? You did the "Journey" soundtrack? I'm not into games, but at some point I had a PlayStation... and that was the only game that made me come back and finish it because of the story and the soundtrack. Thank you!
No! Haha
That was Austin Wintory. Great guy and great composer and it’s listed here as an inspiration for me getting into scoring. Definitely didn’t work on it. Sorry for the confusion. All credit to Austin and agreed, it’s amazing!
Organ Bro.. that’s a big deal! Thanks for the vid.
It took I don't know how many appearances of the youtube shorts for me to realise there's a product called "UA-cam Shorts" 🤦
I'm currently trying to improve my theory chops through UA-cam University (that is, random recommended vids). Find myself getting distracted easily for some reason ...
Thanks for sharing your perspective - food for thought 👍
Do anybody know any composers channels where they show their composing process? I'd love to see a 2h video where somebody is making a new song from scratch, explaining each decision and thoughts and ideas behind it. There is a lot of stuff like this regarding mixing and a few about making catchy techno club hits - I couldn't find much regarding other kinds of music.
I come from a different direction. All the technical, computer and electronic stuff has been my forte. I took piano lessons for 9 years as a child, once a week, but never trained my classical skills further. I was into games and making them, so I wanted to learn also how game sounds were made. I learned about FM synthesis and such, as well as sampling and all the basic electronic audio stuff.
Eventually I studied computer science at the university and wrote my master's thesis about audio signal processing.
But that's where my musical path stopped for many years. I didn't know how to proceed. I felt that I didn't have enough technical skills in playing the piano/keyboards nor did I know enough about composing and didn't even know what mixing and mastering meant or existed.
I'm now 47 and I'm starting music technology/sound engineering studies at a conservatory, DAW as my main instrument! At the same time I'm excited, but also know that I have to stay true to my own voice and calling. After 2-3 years people graduating from that school will either become freelance musicians or sound engineers who will mix those freelance musicians. I know it's not for me. But I know that I will get a lot of those skills that I want and need from that school.
Education is not everything, but I've always understood the value of studying for a degree. There's a lot of stuff there one doesn't probably ever need, but gathering enough skills and knowledge has its benefits. Just make sure to listen to your inner voice and use those skills to realize its wishes!
Hello Sanna
How are you doing today?
The bachelors is not a waste. The Masters and Doctorates are.
Half of a Bachelor’s degree (at a non-conservatory) is taken up by classes not even within the specified field of study. My master’s was incredibly focused, so my experience was directly opposite.
I am self-taught musician and audio-engineer, but I got bachelors grade in IT.
University helped me to understand basic concepts which afterwards helped me in different parts of life, not related to IT.
As my teacher said: in school teacher teaches student, but in uni teacher helps student to study. Interest in the subject and access to uni's resources can help a lot. you can achieve the same result by your own, but it will take MUCH more time to figure out, probably because there won't be structured learning path. And this what happened to me in my music journey 😅
I am glad you did not end up in the Vatican, playing organ 24/7 in a funny looking religious outfit. You are cool here bro. Teaching us all the good and useful things.
For me was the best way, because I can teach children in official school, than I meet with very good people. I can accompaniment singers and other instruments voices. Than I love classical music and now I can play pieces of Rachmaninov, Mozart and other else. And lastly my skill of uses Harmony its very good. But yes it is necesary for composing and other else. I graduate at conservatory as classical trainer pianist and I recommend be a student of similar institution.
Let's dig in....Life is not about whether it was worth it to anyone else, it only has to mean something to you. I studied some piano, I went to learn bass yet started DJing instead, at a time you bought 2-3+ records and sometimes the CD, and learned on turntables. I spent more money than I would have on a house somewhere or a car, yet I still know my experiences and training were worth it. I learned many things I cannot place an amount on, met some great people, which I probably would not have met if I went a different direction. I built my own studio, record my own mix projects, and things I already knew from my formal training helped me a lot. Red Spyda who is a hiphop producer is a trained pianist. Dre and Guru's DJ were drummers. Squarepusher is a trained bassist, and yes, all of it matters. Since I learned the way I did, I can get on turntables and just spin anywhere, or I can start working on my own music, having a foundation. So if you can play, if you learned as an engineer, if you can edit tape, if you can troubleshoot a 48 track mixer, you got some real world skills. All that discipline means something and places you ahead of the curve, because it helps you understand yourself. How could something be a waste if you learned something that builds your base of skills???????
In Denmark education is free for everyone.
I remember asking my Aural Perception professor why she got a PhD in music. She said - so she could teach. She said that she had more job options than if she 'just' had her Masters.
Music is a part of all of our lives - yet so undervalued. What a shame.
Haha that's really confusing right now, I'm actually heavily into psychedelic trance which is probably one of the genres one thinks of being most diametral from classical music. Recently I received the greatest gift of having a phone call with my Idol in this genre and music overall. Guess what he told me, if you really want to become good, learn classical piano first. Now I'm studying since 7 months piano and Schönbergs Theory of harmony even though I actually want to do Psytrance. Phew I don't know I could imagine the piano has side effects one is not even aware of when brought up with this instrument and simply taken for as granted. Any advice is appreciated.
I am not an A*****e gnihihi . Really do like your content. I did go to Music school at a very young age .My mom even bought a huge expensive Keyboard and then I dropped. Sadly I did quit making music after that for 40 years. Slowly getting back to learn again. Degrees are good depending on what you actually want to do. As we do know that in many genres most of them are not musically educated.
While I still think that it's a waste of time learning what a Dorian A flat over C is and might actually restrict or hinder you in making music, I just downloaded your free guide (just wandering why it's zipped; as PDF are compressed already, but - unlike .zip - can be opened and read on mobile devices).
I know about wall papering. The day I mastered 5 hours of performance material is about the same time I decided to no longer perform.
The traditional foundation premises of college, particularly US state schools (private can do what they want IMHO), disappeared decades ago. Today they are gross misuse of taxes and federally insured loans to individuals for a LOT of coin yielding something which, for most, is worth almost nothing. Focused trade or technical/office training is a far better approach. However, that does not involve LARGE amounts of money going to bloated administrative staffing and largely otherwise generally unemployable teaching positions. If you cannot do then teach has never been more true. Even the relatively few valuable degrees generally lack meaningful "classical education" requirements.
I got sick right when I started at icon and literally couldn’t keep up it really sucks i wasted so much money and have no access to any of the videos because I didn’t get far 🥺 I dumb
The best thing I got out of my music degree was the ability to laugh really hard at that advanced Sprechstimme joke.
I taught music tech to degree and masters students for a decade. The irony of which was I had no degree or masters myself and learnt everything I knew by doing the job. Started in live sound and went to studio work later. In my very honest opinion, they are a complete waste of fucking time. This is an industry that you learn by doing. The single biggest skill or talent you need in the music biz is not technical. It is more about being the right fit and look. Are you someone people want to be around or not.
I don’t suppose you’d mind sharing some of the online resources that helped you along the way? If not no worries.
Pretty much watched everything from Pensado’s Place and Produce Like a Pro (Warren Huart). As I got more into synths, Sonic State, Andrew Huang, Mylarmelodies, Divkid, all the usual suspects who have been around for awhile.
@@JamesonNathanJones THANKS. I haven’t checked out Divkid yet.
Outside of classical and jazz, most of the great folk, pop, rock, blues music has been made by artists with no formal training and little theory foundation. There is a place for formal music degrees and training, especially if you want to teach, compose, conduct. Really depends on your specific goals.
Depends on your location - in many European countries that's the 2nd cheapest way to learn music besides learning alone - and many of us don't have the willpower to do it alone properly.
That's because in many EU countries university is much cheaper than private lessons. You can always learn as much as you want and drop out at any point - and that's a valid strategy when you don't care about the degree.
For those who have been asking this question, you’ve definitely given them something to think about by sharing your experience.
Most of it applies to other careers too. But with some caution, I don't think you will become a qualified surgeon watching UA-cam videos. Also in most careers the extra focus you get studying at some university might be vital, it also probability will help to make you more AI-proof, so to say, specially at graduate level (if you got good professors). A good graduate program might force you to collect data and do fieldwork and work with it in an original way, that AI can fake very badly. I guess that would apply to music too, as specific deep and original knowledge is hard for AI (yet).
To make music, it helps to understand music -- the concepts behind composition and sound design. But it seems like traditional music theory, and music schools, teach many things which arguably interfere with a genuine understanding, overcomplicating a lot of things and filling the student's head with old ideas they'll need to un-learn. And the piano, with its unusual arrangement of notes, and even the practice of using note names instead of numbers, are at the center of it. Instead of learning everything 12 times, students could learn faster by using numeric intervals and an isomorphic instrument. And instead of sheet music, they'd probably do better to spend that time learning a DAW. More generally, it'd help to avoid any concepts based on C major or memorizing data tables, and work instead with half-steps, intervals, ratios, etc. Like, the circle of 5ths confuses people, even though it's dead simple. All people need to know is that a "fifth", which got its misleading name thanks to assumptions about major scales, is 7 semitones... or more importantly, just apply a ratio of 3/2 to a frequency or wavelength to get its "fifth"... this simple one-and-a-half ratio is why it's also called a half-octave, and why it sounds so good.
Anyway, just one of many things taught in music schools which IMO gets in the way more than it helps. Adherence to tradition holds people back, and music education seems to focus far more on tradition than on newer, simpler, more versatile approaches.
Watched this yesterday, figured I needed a day or so to ruminate on some of the points.
First up, music degrees. I'm going to say something right off here that'll piss a few people off: a "certificate" of study from a pay-2-play school such as MI, Full Sail, etc is basically worthless outside of a rather narrow career range. It's not a diploma; receiving a B.A. or B.Mus also implies that you had the broader knowledge of core curricula thrown at you and you survived. It improves your prospects for employment in other industry aspects. And there's plenty of that to go around where people who "get" music are essential.
Secondly, if you discover that you simply DO NOT have the capability to cut it in music, you can just declare a different major and then jump over to that, and the end-result is much the same...you get a proper degree from an accredited school.
Graduate study, OTOH, is different.
When you get accepted into graduate school for music, you will be in a rather different set of circumstances. There are three types of professors which you will encounter here:
1) Professors who are there to actually teach.
2) Professors who think their diploma is a license to gatekeep.
3) Narcissists who act like professors, but who make you wonder how TF they got tenure.
The last two are particularly destructive. The first of those are the ones who launched on one particular work, and who now feel the desperate need to validate what they do by making damn sure no one can call them out on their tenuous track record. They also tend to make GLARING errors; one prof I had explained in the FIRST DAY OF CLASS how to get a -140+ noise floor by using dbx I while tracking to digital because digital has really wide dynamic range and dbx I does too, so you add those big dynamic ranges together annnnnnnnnd...
...commit a freshman-level error in front of someone who'd minored in engineering. Seriously. The actuality there is that ANY signal chain can have no wider dynamic range than the noise floor of the worst-case in the chain. If you're tracking in 16/44.1, you get 80-ish (dependent on A-D conversion methods, hardware, dithering, etc) dB media on which you're then recording a dbx Type I signal, with its own range of 60 dB and change. That dynamic range then _constrains_ the noise floor; any idea of another 80 or so dB being there for you to use is total bullshit. (First classroom session @ Illinois in electronic music c. 1992)
Gatekeeping is another huge problem in graduate study in music. This is where problems emerge with professors who think your presence at their school mandates them to force you into being their next clone. One prof at UT Knoxville who had a raging hate-on for minimalism trapped me and another student in a studio because he wanted us to hear a work of his that presumably contained no ostinati (think Glass, Reich here).
Problem was, the work was nothing BUT ostinati. Cleverly disguised in places, sure, but much of the work consisted of long ostinato lines, nested in other repetitive structures. I switched out of his studio at the end of the semester because of this PLUS his inability to recognize that I'd actually violated ALL the rules for my semester final work. He never picked up on that, either.
This doesn't mean that all of the profs I dealt with in graduate study were mental cases, though. UTK gave me big skills in how to do research in music resources...skills that I use to this day. I got to experience the nadir of MIDI scoring (Finale v1.6...hideous effin' software) which made me a lot more critical about music software in general. And so on, until the dirtbag of a governor decided to trash UTK's fine arts and literature programs because they were pet programs of the previous governor, who became the university chancellor...but then went from there to become Daddy Bush's education secretary. Got the hell out of there...
...and went to Illinois. Which in many ways was much WORSE.
See, Illinois at the time was still touting itself as one of the great schools for new music. This appeared to be due to some form of group psychosis, however, as they were still slobbering all over serialism and creating gawdawful crap. Without going into the metric fuckton of various bits of my own interactions with these deluded professors (and you better believe there were a LOT of those), Sal Martirano (one of the few true gems that was still there from the "glory days") told me a story which I'll try and recount here...
"Back when I was growing up on the South Side (of Chicago), one of the things I loved to do was playing jazz piano. It's really what brought me up to want to study music. So I went to the University of Chicago, got a degree in composition, then went off to study over in Italy with Luigi Dallapiccola. Came back, got into a position [at Illinois], started teaching while still composing.
"But there was one day I thought, y'know, when was the last time I sat down to enjoy that jazz piano thing, the thing that got me started on music. And I realized...I didn't play jazz piano anymore. And I felt kinda cheated. I had the security of tenure, but I was pulled away from what got me there.
"Now, in your current situation, you've got a choice. You can do what these people here want, but you won't get much leeway to do what YOU want. Or you can choose the far riskier path of getting out of here and making it on your own skills. So this isn't really about "now", but where you see yourself in 10, 20 years."
Dangerous choice, yes. But Sal also did me another solid right after that: "Now, if you pull out of that DMA, you'd better be goddamned sure about your chops. So bring me what you're up to every few months and we'll hone that down." And I did, getting crazy-cool advice from Sal...just imagine someone looking and sounding like some old Cosa Nostra capo saying all that above while perpetually puffing on ever-present import Benson & Hedges cigs. Sal was cool AF, and losing him to ALS around the end of 1995 really hurt. Still miss his exacting advice, and his PASTA because, just like a good Italian host, food was always a part of those discussions.
But he was also spot-on. And I will 100% credit his influence on my generative compositional output, as he was exploring quasi-AI improvising software "robots"...his term for these listening improvising automata he was coding then.
So while the academic side of my experience here was, in a word, horrible...Sal's critique and tutelage was pure gold.
Hence the problem with the equation "music + university = ???" You can't predict music studies until you're waist-deep in 'em. But it's critical to have that "bail-out" option, because music is an academic field in which the suckage appears in rather random ways. But given that you can get away with a LOT more in undergrad, it's probably best to approach grad study with tiptoe treading...or if you have the combo of chops, guts, and skills from your undergrad studies AND gigging during/before/after those, dodge graduate study in music COMPLETELY unless you feel that you need it for non-musical aspects later on, such as getting into tenure-track positions.
One final example: back in 2001, I got to attend the Stockhausen Courses for the first time, plus I went for the "extra rehearsals" add-on so I could have a ringside seat to see how the voodoo happened. And damn...you were learning at a pace that made any of my gradwork seem like it was horse-drawn. But once we got into the Sülztalhalle, there was a work-stopping snafu...
"Freitag aus LICHT" uses a very complex multichannel sound system, which also involves something akin to a "sonic proscenium" via speakers arching over the stage. And it was one channel at the top that was the problem...every time it was brought in, instant high-frequency feedback would happen, with no apparent fix. Buuuuuuut...
Watching Stockhausen and his assistant and fellow Hawkwind fan Bryan Wolf at the monster Midas XL3, I saw what the "symptoms" were. So...I looked up at the apex speaker. Basic KS gear...pretty high end...but with a non-directional tweeter. Eyes scanning down now, I did a seat-of-the-pants calculation of the angle of the speaker front and where sound was going in straight lines, since the feedback was in ranges where sound acts more beam-like without dispersing.
I leaned over to Bryan and Karlheinz: "I think I have a fix for this...". So, since we still had the work scaffolding on stage, I said that the speaker in question needed to be angled downward, about 10 to 15 degrees, that the tweeter had a direct line to the stage (and hence, the performers' microphones), and that was the source. Nothing to lose, sooo...
Sure enough, the feedback issue was done after that. Stockhausen leaned over to me and asked "Where did you learn that?" And I smiled and just said "Nashville".
But when you have a program like the one I did at MTSU, you wind up pulling ALL of your undergrad knowledge not merely from the music studies...but from the WHOLE DAMN THING, in the sort of idea synthesis that you only get from an actual undergraduate core curriculum. I could confidently make that suggestion to one of the most important figures in music because I knew that what I'd been taught applied there, and that I had the fix.
Now, constrast that with the "first day of class" story above. If I'd relied on knowledge of that caliber, Cholly and his crew would've given me a well-deserved bum's rush, and understandably so! But thanks to that undergrad work, plus the usual scut-work in Nashville itself, I had the knowledge AND background necessary. MI or Full Sail or other similar "pay-2-play" joints won't give you that, nope.
after reading ur book I posthumously agree
I’m happy I was never forced to memorise other people’s music as a child. I became a self taught music producer in my 30’s and spent the last 10-years making over 270 songs. You learn the most by creating not theorising.
There's a tremendous amount to be learned from studying masterworks. But yes, at some point you have to apply whatever you've learned on your own.
I am curious,, what percentage of professional musician and or superstar musicians,, actually have music degrees or Master degrees in music?
There's a mix of people from every part of the spectrum. That's my point though - it doesn't really matter at the end of the day. The degree itself doesn't matter, the work does.
Most musicians I know who aspire to become performers stay in colleges as long as possible, education free in many countries. Music academies are amazing places for learning, growing and forming relations with other musicians which can last a lifetime. The degrees themselves prove that you have the ability and discipline to complete a major project, and the work you put into a final recital can pay off for your enitre career. Especially for teaching jobs at every level, degrees are very important, both for getting tenture and boosting your salary.
Also, you do not seem updated on how many schools operate these days. At the conservatory I teach at, everyone has to learn to use Ableton Live, and there are mandatory "entrepeneurship" signatures. You can even choose "laptop" as a main instrument, and there are plenty of options for you to learn what you feel you need the most.
Music academies are all powerplants of learning and inspiration. It is possible to find similar environments outside as well, but you have to be really lucky!
I'm currently stuck studying something cultural about music. it's sort of a thing in between production, distribution, history and marketing. i thought it would be a great option for me, because i didn't wanna be a virtuous in a traditional instrument, when my computer is already my main instrument, you know? however even that field is not what really resonates with me. and now it's just a burden, because i can't motivate myself to finish this lame ass shit. my goal is to finally finish it and then spend all of my time being a plugin developer and content creator. i would advice people to be really careful about studying. it must be done with intention, not just because studying allegedly brings good jobs.
A degree isnt a waste if youre good its a waste if youre bad at music and wanna compensate, I wish I had one to have a better chance with Opeth
Watching the first 2 minutes this sounds very regretting. I know that feeling but from my point of view, learning to be a virtuous instrument player is not a waste of time at all. I wish I would have done that instead of wasting years for trying to find a Softsynth that really makes the sounds I wanna hear.
Exactly. Waste if time is to study in a field that is too hard and not according to your purpose. The purpose of a piano degree is to help who cant learn alone and give carrier opportunities! And a good degree DOES this. The problems are other problems , but is not like a degree is a waste if time. If you want to teach at school you need a music degree. Period. If you work as an organist and want to be well paid you need a music degree. Period.
I would recommend watching more than 2 minutes of a video before forming an opinion.
@@JamesonNathanJones his opinion is that regarding playing instruments, a degree might help. It is not so affected by the video, since our idea is that a degree is a waste of time for composers of a certain type of music. And it is true: if you want to imitate Hans Zimmer, imitating Boulez and Cage for years might be too time-consuming, and at the end, you can´t mix well your masterpieces or have to pay to be performed... Regarding avant-garde composition, well..., even the "Boulez" degree might be a waste of time. But since most composers of these category want to be academics and talk about how sexy Adorno was....it is not a waste of time in every perspective: they need it for a Phd.... Later they teach, and it was not a waste of time... But artistically, i feel that most degrees in composition are wasting the time of talented people or just passing the less original and authentic minds, in order to teach something and feel the "control". My degree in Music Theory was not a waste of time from the professional point of view ; but to achieve this, yes, it wasted a lot of time. From the artistical point of view, it is what i mentioned on other comment: with or without degree, what matters is something else.
I would like to have some formal training on the piano & electric guitar. In order to have the competent playing, so that I can switch scales when playing over complex chord progression e.g.
| Dm7 | Cmaj7 | Bb6 | Am7 |
| Dm | Gm | Dm | Gm |
| Am7 | Em7 | Dm | Am |
| Em | F | C | G |
| Dm7 | Cmaj7 | Bb6 | Am7 | .
I'm not intellectually capable enough for the higher education stuff. I just dick around until i find something that sounds good and don't complicate it with theory unless I'm really stuck. No one will want to pay you well without the piece of paper though.
Outside of the academic world, the piece of paper is meaningless.
While you have the talent, I'm grateful that you do what you do instead of wearing tuxedos and playing other composers' music in concert halls. I think about that now and then when I listen to your music or watch your videos.
I've heard a lot of people play Rachmaninoff perfectly fine. But I don't enjoy Rachmaninoff as much as Somewhat the Same. [Excessive fire emojis here...]
Shoot, I thought I was going to make an original observation about the Billy-Bob ☹️
There is not much sense to regret about the classical education or whatever. Music is similar to life it self. It's about mistakes. Beautiful mistakes. Loud mistakes. Which is brave.
Mostly it because industry is so corrupt.
The flip side of this, people with no training, or even the ability to read music, can have successful and beneficial careers in music production.
Absolutely. I mentioned that in the video.
Actually, it is not bad to sound like Billy Bob Thornton. No? 😅
Jokes aside, You are doing great music and great content! Keep doing it!
The music world, or worlds, shall we say, could do with a lot less elitism. Anti-Classical-Anything feelings outside the classical world. Anti-Everything-Else vibes inside the classical world. Anti-Rap sentiment from some, anti anything that isn't Rap, from some. It's music people. Imagine music faculties where it's all valued and important. Those are the kinds of places we need. Ixnay on the Obsnay.
Most people are lazy, mostly because ignoring reality is hard to find, sustain, and keep a purpose. If you tell them that two chords are enough to be a film composer, they love you and will stick to the minimum. With or without degree, what matters is something else.
"Good @ Ravel ... STILL bad @ recording" 😂🤣
...And you sound NOTHING like Billy Bob Thornton. So that's a head-scratcher... 🤨🤷♂️
Keep up the Good Work. You're journey is FASCINATING 😎👍🎶
Yeah I don’t really hear it either. I guess it’s people’s default sound-alike for “mild southern accent” 😂
Thanks for the kind words 🙏
How could you say something so controversial yet so brave? XD