0:00 Intro 0:36 Start 1:00 Introducing the Panel 5:17 When did you discover partimento and can you describe the early days of partimento research? 12:04 Fenaroli was considered old fashioned and useless 21:01 The difficulties of partimento research in the early days 23:55 Modern Harmony courses in university 26:18 Why did improvisation die in the 19th century? 30:39 What is the point of improvisation historically? 38:24 Dustin Hoffman reciting L'infinito 41:07 Partimento rehabilitating counterpoint in music education 46:22 The importance of singing in the Neapolitan conservatories 50:54 What IS partimento? 59:18 Isn't partimento only useful for the 18th-century and not more modern music? 1:09:32 World class concert performers not knowing anything about harmony or improvisation 1:11:07 Modern classical musicians mostly lack the creative skills that 18th century musicians would have had apart from technique 1:14:41 The future of partimento in music education 1:26:12 Did you imagine 20 years ago that anyone would be interested in partimento? 1:29:27 Wrapping Up 1:29:52 Outro
This is pure gold. (My two highlights: Harmony is a fairytale told about counterpoint... Counterpoint is fun!). These heroes of the revolution have indeed changed lives - in that they have changed the continuing music education lives of many of us. This channel is doing an invaluable service in giving us access to all this wisdom. Profound thanks!
@@NikhilHoganShow I am a really old guy so I am not at all sure where this reply goes or who will read it, but if in fact I have just been in touch with Nikil Hogan himself-or “yourself,” if this is in fact a conversation-I am honored. I have listened, riveted, to many of the Nikil Hogan Show podcasts over the last year and a half or a bit more, as well as those from Early Music Sources, and the fabulous lectures on species counterpoint by Dr. Jacob Gran, and, as you so vividly have said, this has changed my life. Radically. It has restored my love of classical music and music in general and caused me to want to remain a musician and teacher of music-which I came very close to abandoning altogether. Period. And it is through the podcasts of the Nikil Hogan Show that I discovered a very fine teacher whom I am working with: Nicole DiPaolo, who is guiding me through Ijzerman’s wonderful text. I could go on and on, but in a word: thank you. I hope to help others discover this field.
@@scottjacksonwiley Wow, that's really amazing. I'm so happy to read this. Partimento changed my life completely too and there's lots more to share and discover, we are only getting started! -Nikhil
Just wanted to say thanks Nikhil for running the podcast and helping popularize these ideas! And to the wonderful scholars participating (many familiar names - this episode looks more like an "all-stars" session :D). I'm a keyboard beginner and didn't think improvisation could be a viable training method. Found out about partimento and keyboard improv from this podcast's highlight videos. This approach has been more fun than the other methods I've seen on the internet - noticeably easier to understand concepts and make use of them than e.g. from college music theory books. Thanks to everyone participating in improvisation teaching/scholarship for keeping this approach alive, and taking your time to bring these ideas to general public too - it really is appreciated!
This is a great discussion you set up here! It seems that the panel members also enjoyed it and learned from it too. About 20 some years ago I was a music student at Northwestern and I realized that if I wanted to leave there having learned something I would need to register for all of Robert Gjerdingen's classes, and so I did and so many years later those are still the classes that defined the way I understand music.
That's very cool to read! Robert Gjerdingen was the man who really changed my life directly in my first interview with him episode 62 - literally a life changing interview for me!
I appreciate the attention paid to the voice by Robert. there’s a connection between Bel Canto and Partimento I haven’t heard explored much - the very first song I learned as a classical singer was by Durante, and Paisiello’s etc music is still sung by voice students today. Vaccaj whose singing method is still standard today was Paisiello’s student iirc. I feel like we are seeing little bits of the picture and slowly piecing a puzzle together. I feel there’s room for scholars of Bel Canto to enrich the keyboard perspective…
I didn't know that about Vaccaj, thank you. I recently started test driving his "Italian method" (is it ever!) with students as a supplementary help with introducing them to hexachordal mutation and appoggiaturae a la Baragwanath. It seemed a good fit, so I'm happy that my instinct proved good. Can you recommend as a singer any specific Durante, Pasiello or even Bononcini etc?
@@kosmolove3723 it's all in what's called the Arie Antiche repertoire. Most singers start with '24 Italian Songs and Arias' (Schirmer). There's other books too IIRC. Some of these songs started as solfeggi, for instance 'Dansa Fanciulla' (Durante). These are of course edited versions of the originals with editorial keyboard arrangement etc for what I think was usually just a bass? But the songs are still sung!
@@kosmolove3723 a little bit more info - apparently the Arie Antiche repertoire is the result of Alessandro Parisotti's efforts in the early 20th century to repopularise this old repertoire. He originally edited three volumes of songs. Obviously these are pretty far form the original sources.
@@kosmolove3723 Interesting the song 'se tu m'ami' which he attributed to Pergolesi and shows up in Stravinsky's Pulcinella may have in fact been written by him which is quite funny. Nice song!
@@JazzGuitarScrapbook On the solfeggio group I was suggested "Cecilia Bartoli - Arie Antiche: Se tu m'ami" and it is indeed a very nice rendition of the songbook (unless it was you suggesting it, usernames on the internet makes it hard to realize who is who sometimes :) )
Those bracing Dakota temperatures seem to encourage frank talk ;) Disillusioned with "Jazz Theory" I came upon the late great Barry Harris. Nikhil interviewed a close student of his....so I discovered this incredible world. Now at 65 for the first time, I'm deeply interested in 18th century music. I play my RO everyday, and slowly I begin to transpose the other key elements, not least the recipes for mutations. I've also been reading alot of history for context. Partimento has enriched my life as I can't properly express. Thanks to all of you!
I liked Gerdigen’s point about when you are a church organist or only a group of 3 or 4 musicians, improvisation is possible, whereas a large orchestra must have notated music and everyone must stick to it. Also, only a small percentage of the world’s music is notated!
Great talk, thanks for sharing this (as well of the rest of your podcast)! It really strikes me however that despite all estimation shown, the moderator manages to constantly call Rosa Cafiero by her first name, everybody else is 'Prof.' and called by their family name. It's just a detail, nobody of them seems to care and you may proceed as you prefer of course, but I couldn't miss to point that one out. Keep these podcasts running!
I'm an 'amateur' in the true sense of the term, performance is the farthest from my mind. But observing the Academié from the outside, the elite schools seem bent on creating human piano roll performers. The great Masters frozen in amber, inviolate. Even note and gesture preserved. Partimento, improvisation and sightreading seems much more interesting.
I suspect the performance aspect in these elite conservatories has been warped by the misunderstanding of the word "virtuosity". I think the great composers played a lot slower, improvised/composed, and were supported in churches and had much more time to study practical harmony. The average classical music student is spending most of their time practicing showpieces in an exaggerated fast manner. (In my humble opinion)
0:00 Intro
0:36 Start
1:00 Introducing the Panel
5:17 When did you discover partimento and can you describe the early days of partimento research?
12:04 Fenaroli was considered old fashioned and useless
21:01 The difficulties of partimento research in the early days
23:55 Modern Harmony courses in university
26:18 Why did improvisation die in the 19th century?
30:39 What is the point of improvisation historically?
38:24 Dustin Hoffman reciting L'infinito
41:07 Partimento rehabilitating counterpoint in music education
46:22 The importance of singing in the Neapolitan conservatories
50:54 What IS partimento?
59:18 Isn't partimento only useful for the 18th-century and not more modern music?
1:09:32 World class concert performers not knowing anything about harmony or improvisation
1:11:07 Modern classical musicians mostly lack the creative skills that 18th century musicians would have had apart from technique
1:14:41 The future of partimento in music education
1:26:12 Did you imagine 20 years ago that anyone would be interested in partimento?
1:29:27 Wrapping Up
1:29:52 Outro
Excellent!
This is pure gold. (My two highlights: Harmony is a fairytale told about counterpoint... Counterpoint is fun!). These heroes of the revolution have indeed changed lives - in that they have changed the continuing music education lives of many of us. This channel is doing an invaluable service in giving us access to all this wisdom. Profound thanks!
You're most welcome!
Thanks!
Wow, thanks so much Scott, much appreciated!
@@NikhilHoganShow I am a really old guy so I am not at all sure where this reply goes or who will read it, but if in fact I have just been in touch with Nikil Hogan himself-or “yourself,” if this is in fact a conversation-I am honored.
I have listened, riveted, to many of the Nikil Hogan Show podcasts over the last year and a half or a bit more, as well as those from Early Music Sources, and the fabulous lectures on species counterpoint by Dr. Jacob Gran, and, as you so vividly have said, this has changed my life. Radically. It has restored my love of classical music and music in general and caused me to want to remain a musician and teacher of music-which I came very close to abandoning altogether. Period. And it is through the podcasts of the Nikil Hogan Show that I discovered a very fine teacher whom I am working with: Nicole DiPaolo, who is guiding me through Ijzerman’s wonderful text.
I could go on and on, but in a word: thank you. I hope to help others discover this field.
@@scottjacksonwiley Wow, that's really amazing. I'm so happy to read this. Partimento changed my life completely too and there's lots more to share and discover, we are only getting started! -Nikhil
Just wanted to say thanks Nikhil for running the podcast and helping popularize these ideas! And to the wonderful scholars participating (many familiar names - this episode looks more like an "all-stars" session :D).
I'm a keyboard beginner and didn't think improvisation could be a viable training method. Found out about partimento and keyboard improv from this podcast's highlight videos.
This approach has been more fun than the other methods I've seen on the internet - noticeably easier to understand concepts and make use of them than e.g. from college music theory books.
Thanks to everyone participating in improvisation teaching/scholarship for keeping this approach alive, and taking your time to bring these ideas to general public too - it really is appreciated!
You're so welcome, thank you for the kind words! Much appreciated.
This was magnificent! Thank you for so much knowledge gathered here!
Excelente vídeo
A new beginning for me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have no words for this, it's so amazing. Thanks to these people and you, dear Nikhil, my life changed 2 years ago in a such positive way. ❤❤❤
So happy to read this!
This is a great discussion you set up here! It seems that the panel members also enjoyed it and learned from it too. About 20 some years ago I was a music student at Northwestern and I realized that if I wanted to leave there having learned something I would need to register for all of Robert Gjerdingen's classes, and so I did and so many years later those are still the classes that defined the way I understand music.
That's very cool to read! Robert Gjerdingen was the man who really changed my life directly in my first interview with him episode 62 - literally a life changing interview for me!
I appreciate the attention paid to the voice by Robert. there’s a connection between Bel Canto and Partimento I haven’t heard explored much - the very first song I learned as a classical singer was by Durante, and Paisiello’s etc music is still sung by voice students today. Vaccaj whose singing method is still standard today was Paisiello’s student iirc. I feel like we are seeing little bits of the picture and slowly piecing a puzzle together. I feel there’s room for scholars of Bel Canto to enrich the keyboard perspective…
I didn't know that about Vaccaj, thank you. I recently started test driving his "Italian method" (is it ever!) with students as a supplementary help with introducing them to hexachordal mutation and appoggiaturae a la Baragwanath. It seemed a good fit, so I'm happy that my instinct proved good. Can you recommend as a singer any specific Durante, Pasiello or even Bononcini etc?
@@kosmolove3723 it's all in what's called the Arie Antiche repertoire. Most singers start with '24 Italian Songs and Arias' (Schirmer). There's other books too IIRC. Some of these songs started as solfeggi, for instance 'Dansa Fanciulla' (Durante). These are of course edited versions of the originals with editorial keyboard arrangement etc for what I think was usually just a bass? But the songs are still sung!
@@kosmolove3723 a little bit more info - apparently the Arie Antiche repertoire is the result of Alessandro Parisotti's efforts in the early 20th century to repopularise this old repertoire. He originally edited three volumes of songs. Obviously these are pretty far form the original sources.
@@kosmolove3723 Interesting the song 'se tu m'ami' which he attributed to Pergolesi and shows up in Stravinsky's Pulcinella may have in fact been written by him which is quite funny. Nice song!
@@JazzGuitarScrapbook On the solfeggio group I was suggested "Cecilia Bartoli - Arie Antiche: Se tu m'ami" and it is indeed a very nice rendition of the songbook (unless it was you suggesting it, usernames on the internet makes it hard to realize who is who sometimes :) )
Those bracing Dakota temperatures seem to encourage frank talk ;) Disillusioned with "Jazz Theory" I came upon the late great Barry Harris. Nikhil interviewed a close student of his....so I discovered this incredible world. Now at 65 for the first time, I'm deeply interested in 18th century music. I play my RO everyday, and slowly I begin to transpose the other key elements, not least the recipes for mutations. I've also been reading alot of history for context. Partimento has enriched my life as I can't properly express. Thanks to all of you!
Thank you so much for listening!
I also stumbled upon partimento via Barry Harris.
I cannot, could not, agree more. Partimento and Jazz go hand in hand. Discovering Barry Harris had been a revelation for me as well.
I liked Gerdigen’s point about when you are a church organist or only a group of 3 or 4 musicians, improvisation is possible, whereas a large orchestra must have notated music and everyone must stick to it. Also, only a small percentage of the world’s music is notated!
So interesting, thanks.
You're very welcome!
Great talk, thanks for sharing this (as well of the rest of your podcast)!
It really strikes me however that despite all estimation shown, the moderator manages to constantly call Rosa Cafiero by her first name, everybody else is 'Prof.' and called by their family name. It's just a detail, nobody of them seems to care and you may proceed as you prefer of course, but I couldn't miss to point that one out.
Keep these podcasts running!
Yes, she preferred it that way and we agreed before the show, otherwise I would have said Professor as default.
👍
I loved this. Wondering how can we study counterpoint in this way?
Partimento/thoroughbass and Solfeggio are good starting points to learning counterpoint.
Great discussion!
Thank you!
Can’t wait 🎉🎉🎉
🙏
If 63 chords are stable, why do we always end on 53?
I think stability here is relating to the harmonic "scaffolding" or "skeleton" of a piece, where every beat isn't always going to be a 5/3 chord.
I'm an 'amateur' in the true sense of the term, performance is the farthest from my mind. But observing the Academié from the outside, the elite schools seem bent on creating human piano roll performers. The great Masters frozen in amber, inviolate. Even note and gesture preserved.
Partimento, improvisation and sightreading seems much more interesting.
I suspect the performance aspect in these elite conservatories has been warped by the misunderstanding of the word "virtuosity". I think the great composers played a lot slower, improvised/composed, and were supported in churches and had much more time to study practical harmony. The average classical music student is spending most of their time practicing showpieces in an exaggerated fast manner. (In my humble opinion)
Could you mute yourself when typing? kind of distracting😅
Wasn't my audio, it was from a guest, i tried my best to edit that out.