The Psychological Drivers of the Metacrisis: John Vervaeke Iain McGilchrist Daniel Schmachtenberger
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- Опубліковано 4 чер 2024
- This is a conversation between Iain McGilchrist, John Vervaeke and Daniel Schmachtenberger, recorded at Merton College, Oxford, in September 2023. With no planned objective or agenda, the discussion sought to outline the cognitive and spiritual components of the metacrisis. The metacrisis is the total ecosystem of all global crises and the common underlying dynamics that generate catastrophic and existential risks.
This is neither a comprehensive theory of the topic, nor an approach to addressing it. The conversation was simply an opportunity to explore in real time how the speakers, with their different worldviews and pre-existing frameworks, would approach this deep and challenging domain. As Iain, John and Daniel all happened to be in Oxford with availability on a single afternoon, they had not discussed or prepared the approach at any significant length in advance. As a result, a shared understanding emerges only towards the very end of the film. The content is incomplete and partial, and should be viewed as a potential entry point to a far deeper conversation (which may or may not be recorded at a later date). A complete transcript can be found here:
consilienceproject.org/wp-con...
Meaningful communication between two large bodies of work can take time, and becomes exponentially harder with three. This inherent challenge was understood in advance, but given the fundamental multipolarity of the dynamics of the metacrisis itself, it felt like a challenge worth accepting.
00:00 Introduction
08:26 McGilchrist’s Opening Thoughts
21:21 Vervaeke’s Opening Thoughts
40:41 Distinctions for an Ontology of a Meaningful Universe
1:08:15 The Challenges of Binding Power with Wisdom
1:57:49 Can we Imagine a Civilization with the Wisdom to Steward Exponential Power?
02:39:04 The Problem of Scale
2:59:00 Reimagining Education for the Cultivation of Wisdom
3:14:23 Closing Thoughts
To purchase The Matter with Things
Hardback internationally Amazon.com
Hardback UK only ChannelMcGilchrist.com , Amazon.co.uk and other booksellers nationwide
Kindle on www.amazon.co.uk and www.amazon.com
The internet is a crazy place. Where else can a high school drop out hair dresser, now a stay at home mom of 5 listen to a intellectual conversation like this, the best of humanity while at the same time it’s ruining us, social media poisoning our kids. Dividing us. Thank you for sharing this. God help us all. 🙏
High school isn’t the greatest place for smart, sensitive people. I got on with my life too. :)
It really is one of the greatest blessings, and the biggest curses on our humanity going… We shall see what happens!
Steph… you sound pretty darn smart. Good luck with your life, and your kids are lucky to have you as their mom…
and god bless us all too 🙏💞
you describe the paradox of human existence very well!!!
when people talk about systems instead of enemies , you know you are on the right channel
Systems ie evil spirits
A conversation I recommend to everyone. We are the luckiest generation we are getting this kind of quality conversations for free at the palms of our hands.
The luckiest generation only so far, hopefully. Excelsior.
it really is marvellous how much information we can access
If information = power, then we are the most powerful humans in history.
In my case it costs roughly two dollars and change a day. Still a bargain.
True ... but probably way too late.
This is the type of discussion we should see among politicians running for office.
There is a kind of freedom here, in the intelectual, literary and scientific endeavors that is does not seem possible in politics, there is a logic of investigation and work (highly important there is an implicit expectancy in free intelectual conversations to be highly educated, like this case for example) to have opinions, theories of ethic and religion and make mistakes about all this but correcting them in long spans of time, not political campaings spans of time. politicians fear above all to appear to be doubtfult or say something the public could not understand as to how they are going to tweak or adjust ECONOMY inmediately and make their lives better and be cought in stupid webs, feminist debates, entertainment, and be inserted in the duality of being rich or hating them, etc.
Dr. McGilchrist will be remembered as the most important intellectual of our era, in my belief. I've not heard anyone else speak with such diagnostic clarity as to the symptoms and issues which plague our time. The insights he sets forth are paradigm-altering. He deserves a bigger platform.
“Deserve” is one thing.
But listening to his calm, reasoned, articulate way of speaking… do you think a bigger “platform” would make a difference? Would *he want* a bigger platform? Would the broader (non-reflective, ideologically-possessed, neurotypical) audience have any interest? Would they have any idea what he’s talking about?
2:10
I've thought before that he's almost like an unexpected messiah for the modern age. His academic record is staggering and yet he is totally unassuming and kind. He is now delivering to the world an important and timely spiritual message about what matters most in life. And he does so almost having proven it (!) - ie after decades of rigorous study at the most respected academic establishments on earth. Which all in all makes him a very hard man to question even for the most hard-headed rational materialists. He's like a benevolent teflon-tweed science yogi for a godless time, and I pray the world hears him!
He needs a dumbed down quip like "clean your room." But he's not polarizing enough hothead to get media attention.
@@thesh1ttyactivist JBP is more a bullhorn than he is an intellectual. But he turns young people toward reading and thinking, I've nothing against that.
I am half way through reading The Master and his Emissary. I read it with a sense of huge relief. Feels like Dr.McGilchrist has articulated many things I was thinking but couldn't find the words for. Brilliant and important work.
Brilliant and lacklustre are RELATIVE. 😉
Incidentally, are you VEGAN? 🌱
@@MikeFuller-ok6okkeep 2:43:16 k
keep going.
you're in for a treat with the next chapter ( or two)
Maxims & Interludes, I think). even a dumbass like myself can enjoy particularly that one.
Neitzsche is never clearer in all his work than in this chapter . It's ideal for the left-hemisphere dominant so perhaps our friend 👍could perhaps benefit too.
@@MikeFuller-ok6okI found that after struggling to maintain clear comprehension of Nietzsche's first book, The Birth of Tragedy, and sticking with it I could follow more of his works a lot easier. Due I guess to the extracurricular knowledge I gained. Nietzsche did say he could write in one sentence what it would take others a book to write, although I did find one of his sentences was made up of 375 words.
True Masterpiece! (Not just a message from the emissary 😉).
@@robertamineo477
indeed !
At the very least ,F.N. had mastered, among other grammatical devices, the use of the humble but essential comma;
unlike Harari whose literary wanking denies even the existence of the Master.(Unless that be Herr Boogmann), Gates, Zuck and al others who relentlessly promote the role of emissary to that of Master.
Great Reset ?
Great Imbecilification....
Please, please, you must continue this dialogue. The world needs it. Thank you.
This is one of the finest conversations I've seen on this platform. Thank you.
Thank you I feel like the mom with 5 kids - where can an 81 year old granny who has studied these things for years find them all consolidated like this. This is how technology should be used to help us evolve!
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation:
00:00 🌐 The discussion revolves around the Psychological Drivers of the Metacrisis and potential responses.
01:18 🌍 The metacrisis is characterized by global risks and challenges, unprecedented in history, arising from technological advancements.
02:40 🚀 Powerful technologies like nuclear weapons, AI, synthetic biology, and global supply chains contribute to the metacrisis.
04:32 🔄 The polycrisis perspective emphasizes the interconnectedness of various issues, cautioning that solutions to one problem may exacerbate others.
05:30 🌐 The metacrisis is rooted in the unique ability of humans, driven by technology shaped by the human mind, to impact the environment on a global scale.
09:35 🔍 McGilchrist explores the left hemisphere's focus on abstraction and categorization vs. the right hemisphere's holistic, context-aware perception.
20:28 🌐 Schmachtenberger raises the question of why the emissary (left hemisphere) became dominant in global civilization relative to the master (right hemisphere).
24:58 💀 The prevalence of zombies in culture symbolizes the meaning crisis, representing individuals living meaningless lives, disconnected and decayed.
27:39 🧘 Positive responses to the meaning crisis include the mindfulness revolution, interest in ancient wisdom philosophies, and exploration of Asiatic philosophies that integrate knowledge and wisdom.
28:59 🎮 Video games provide narrative, normative, nomological, and flow structures, offering insights into what's missing in real-world meaning.
31:12 🧠 General intelligence reflects the ability to solve problems by having or becoming something, addressing two meta-problems: anticipation of the world and dealing with the explosion of information possibilities.
40:25 🔄 The discussion shifts to the etiology of ubiquitous meaninglessness, exploring the relationship between psychological phenomena and objective environmental challenges like nuclear risk, AI, and economic issues.
43:31 🎯 The recovery of Neoplatonism, emphasizing polarity over poles, using the Greek word "tonos" for tension.
44:00 🧘♂ Anxiety and depression are not the same; anxiety is not lateralized, while depression can be linked to unbalanced activity in specific brain regions.
52:11 🚀 Aspiration and rationality are intertwined; aspirational projects involve binding oneself to a future self through imagination.
56:26 🌐 Subjective-objective divide challenged; everything comes into being as a relation, emphasizing encounter, experience, love, and valuing.
01:00:58 🌈 Hierarchy of values from utility to the sacred; left hemisphere dominance tends to focus on utility, missing higher-level values.
01:15:42 🔀 Sociopathic defection, driven by short-term power goals, undermines the pursuit of collective well-being and meaningful life. Overcoming this requires fostering a sense of belonging to a just world and emphasizing values beyond immediate gain.
01:30:56 🔄 Religions, while embodying the sacred, often get corrupted by power-seeking individuals, leading to a mixed impact on civilization.
01:32:43 🔄 Despite challenges, there's hope in preserving cultural cognitive grammar and focusing on what remains across power shifts.
01:40:02 🔄 There's an ethical obligation for those valuing the sacred and wisdom to engage with power responsibly, preventing its misuse.
01:44:39 🤔 Plato's seduction involves engaging the left hemisphere in arguments and discussions, using that process to draw attention to non-propositional elements and the importance of character development.
01:45:32 💬 Dialogical practices, resembling Platonic anamnesis, can lead to a sense of intimacy and connection with the collective "we" or the logos, prompting individuals to undergo a Platonic pivot.
01:46:54 🤖 Logic's compulsory nature contrasts with the inability to compel wisdom and love, emphasizing the importance of vulnerability in pursuing these qualities.
02:00:38 🔄 The mixed bag nature of humanity, capable of both beautiful and horrific actions, is explored, with a focus on the vulnerability of our relationship to the sacred and the need for a fundamentally different approach to ethics and choice.
02:02:51 ⚖ Increased coordination within in-groups, coupled with competition with out-groups, creates a challenging game theory, leading to potential conflicts in the use of technological power.
02:06:54 🔄 Exaptive solutions are necessary, repurposing past elements like religion, to address the unprecedented challenges posed by evolving technology and its potential misuse.
02:11:35 🤝 Wisdom at the scale needed to prevent self-destruction requires rethinking the relationship between power, wisdom, and technology on a global scale.
02:15:13 🔄 Exapting elements from the past, such as Neoplatonism and Zen, could provide a deep grammar for large-scale reconceptions of fundamental human understanding.
02:28:37 🌌 Whiteheadian idea of creation: McGilchrist discusses a Whiteheadian idea where the divine Ground of Being is not passive but interacts with creation, suggesting that humans play a role in the ongoing evolution and fulfillment of the divine.
02:30:50 ⚖ McGilchrist’s Wager: McGilchrist proposes a concept similar to Pascal's Wager, suggesting that humans may play a role in the development and evolution of the divine, presenting an ennobling obligation to contribute positively to the world.
02:33:09 🌱 Optimistic view of the cosmos: Despite skepticism, McGilchrist expresses an optimistic view of the cosmos, indicating that humans, through their relationships and actions, can bring hope and dignity to the human condition.
02:34:21 🌐 Global synthesis of wisdom: John Vervaeke proposes a global synthesis of wisdom, drawing from Neoplatonism, Kabbalah, Sufism, and Eastern philosophies, aiming for a pluralistic approach that enriches various religious and philosophical traditions.
02:43:11 🧠 Hemispheric dominance and scaling: The discussion explores the connection between hemispheric dominance, scaling, and the challenges of addressing global issues without losing uniqueness and local instantiation.
02:44:54 🌐 Panentheism and reverence: McGilchrist expresses his panentheistic views, emphasizing the importance of seeing God in everything (panentheism) rather than God being everything (pantheism). This perspective fosters reverence and could potentially reduce conflicts between religious groups.
02:53:23 🌐 Emergence of a new religion: The discussion explores the idea of a "new religion" emerging, not necessarily to replace existing religions but to reify and reinterpret them in ways that address contemporary challenges such as ecological overshoot, planetary boundaries, and technological advancements.
02:58:03 🤔 Reification of religions and philosophical traditions: The conversation touches on the reification of existing religions and the development of new philosophical traditions. It explores how these meta-dynamics can contribute to wisdom, ecological stewardship, and aligning human values with societal structures.
03:00:37 🏛 Institutions and wisdom development: Addressing the practical aspect, the discussion emphasizes the need to create ecologies of practices within communities before reforming education. This involves changing the lived normativity of cultures to avoid education reforms being co-opted by existing systems.
03:05:30 🌐 Education should encompass history, literature, philosophy, music, and culture, fostering creative, empathic understanding. The emphasis on IT and procedural learning should be balanced with a broader, more holistic approach.
03:08:45 🤝 Synoptic integration: Advocating for individuals overseeing the whole picture, bridging gaps between disciplines, and recognizing the value of synoptic integrators alongside specialists in areas like cognitive science.
03:15:08 🌍 Orientation and agency: Encouraging a sense of hope, duty, and action. Emphasizing the duty to further larger causes and contribute in ways that align with personal strengths, advocating against despair.
03:16:57 💖 Love of wisdom and being: Highlighting the real possibilities of falling in love with being, emphasizing the reciprocal opening of possibilities over the reciprocal narrowing associated with addiction. Plato's concept of anagoge is referenced.
03:17:53 🌌 Epistemic humility: Stressing the importance of holding mystery and the unknowable at the center, promoting an epistemic humility that comes from being open to both the overwhelming beauty and suffering present in reality.
03:19:12 🌟 Sacred obligation: Connecting the sense of sacred obligation to protecting reality with clear seeing, being moved by the beauty of reality, and fostering a protective impulse towards the sacredness and meaningfulness of existence.
Hurrah !
thanks for bringing it all down. Your summary could be of benefit to those of left-hemi dominance and even the younger among us , particularly we with short attention spans.
I feel there's an important role for you ...
Thanks. Great service provided for those of us who will want to go back and relisten to various parts.
anyone actually read the book/books ?
@@siyaindagulag.AI generated
01:55:30 Hiccup?
This is a conversation I’ve been waiting three years for. Three of the most forward-thinking, influential, thought leaders of our time.
Schmachtenberger isn't in the same league as the other two in my opinion...
@@manlikeJoe1010 why do you feel the need to make such a disparaging comment?
@@sanyopoweraid1Just stating my opinion. It was you who percieved it as disparaging.
Don't be disingenuous. Your statement is indeed disparaging. It's not just my opinion. @@manlikeJoe1010
@user-dj5xx3ir4l Schmachtenberger's moderating here is a tour-de-force, deftly highlighting key points and bringing structure and synthesis to the discussion. I don't doubt he could do this on countless other, equally complex topics, holding his own with any thinker.
I wish this kind of conversation and intellectual thinkers were more common.
They're actually VERY common; they are just not usually so easy to find. Don't despair. Most conversations like this happen off-record. Of those that occur on-record, most of them are held in ways that are not so visible due to platform quality, production quality, algorithmic suppression, etc. I know soooooo many wise and insightful and articulate people who can hack it in discussions like these, at this level...the world is better than you might suppose.
Very good conversation. I’m glad these questions are being tackled. A few comments:
1- the problems Daniel posits are second order ones that are mostly being assessed through a utilitarian mind-set. The first order problems are that created by a techno-globalist managerial system which is disempowering people while incentivising the secondary order problems - some in reality but also some which are convenient falsies.
2- the problems we face are arguably a necessary part of our social evolution. We have had to learn through the inevitable mistakes and experiences in order to ascend.
3- I’m glad it was eventually clarified that averting the problems we face will not be through educating the elite. It has to happen at a grass roots level. Only then will we demand a different governance - not the other way around.
yes from the grass roots
This is a deeply meaningful dialogue between three wise men. Avatar 2 has approximately the same running time (192 minutes ) as this talk and after watching that film my mind was numb and dumb. This video, however, has had the opposite affect and now my mind is enlightened. Thank you for sharing. Peace.
Avatar 2 dealt with exactly what they’re discussing in this talk.
The humans in the movie are too left brain dominant which causes them to destroy their own planet and then spread across space seeking to exploit the Naavi world.
The Naavi represents people that are right brain dominant, hence their lifestyle and connections to the plants and animals of Pandora.
@7200darkcharm I think you're right.
It's not that the movie makes people dumb, but rather that it is sharing a message that is very wise and is attempting to influence an audience that is already quite dumb.
Just look at how many people waste thousands of hours of their lives watching sports or playing video games.
I don't think many of them are capable of hearing these conversations and keeping up.
Avatar serves as a bridge to understand a basic concept that is central to our humanity, but has been forgotten in the modern, game theory driven world
An unstructured conversation between great minds is a profound way to explore things. Although the three minds tend to move their comfort zones, I found it fascinating. I'm worried that this level of conversation is only for a (very) limited group of people, whereas this matters for all. I've learned a lot and will apply insights to my daily life. Thank you guys!
Magnificent, i was so delighted how thoroughly you all addressed perhaps the most primary and problematic aspects of the current human condition: Power and Love....or power without love....
A challenge, in my opinion, is that ‘love’ poorly defined can get pretty nasty.
I think _power_ is a muddy word, it can mean vastly different things. I would differentiate between _power over others_ (force, related to authority) and _power within oneself_ (strength, related to autonomy). The two are not congruent, to use Vervaeke's vocabulary. I kind of understand Vervaeke's yearning for better words. I also really dislike the words _value_ and _worth_ and how they have come to mean "the material or monetary worth of something". Another muddy word is freedom. It's all very Newspeak.
But back to your point, you _can_ have "loving force/authority over others". That's true of good parents and great teachers. It's based on a strong connection and sincere empathy for someone who's under your care and protection. But as you scale it up, that connection gets lost through abstraction. Our capability for empathy and love just doesn't scale.
It seems that the more intimate and personal a relation, the stronger it is, and vice versa. As you scale, what you're left with is more and more force/authority with less and less love. I think the most realistic approach is _not_ to seek a solution that scales, but one that _doesn't_ scale. The smaller the power/authority, the greater the potential for love to flourish. In networking terms, that would entail distributed structures, where instead of central/decentralized authority there's a common peer-to-peer/group-to-group protocol.
Then comes the question of how to _avoid_ scaling. There will always be sociopaths hungry for power among us, and people with good intentions (the road to hell…). I don't have any clear solutions, other than a hunch that it would require a wise and resilient culture, capable of self-correction/self-balancing, with a lasting philosophical/spiritual core that's like water, always moving but never deflecting from its essence.
I don't think it's possible to design or force such a society into existence, except in fiction. I'd love to read stories like that! As Ursula K Le Guin said, "we’ll be wanting the voices of writers who can see alternatives to how we live now, can see (…) other ways of being, and even imagine real grounds for hope." I think we really need inspiration.
The ideas are out there, so something like this might emerge organically from the ruins of this civilization. Similar to the indigenous peoples after the megafauna extinction of the Late Pleistocene, as Schmachtenberger mentioned. It might also emerge in small pockets and on the fringes of this civilization as it crumbles. So I think there are grounds for hope. Just not for civilization, which _is_ the scaling up of human society, with all that entails.
Hard times are coming, when we’ll be wanting the voices of writers(/thinkers) who can see alternatives to how we live now, can see through our fear-stricken society and its obsessive technologies to other ways of being, and even imagine real grounds for hope. We’ll need writers(/thinkers) who can remember freedom - poets, visionaries - realists of a larger reality.
- Ursula K. Le Guin
Excellent discussion, interesting the whole way. I have been waiting for an intelligent conversation about exactly these topics.
"The left hemisphere closes down to a certainty;
the right hemisphere opens up to a possibility."
-Sir Iain McGilchrist.
Yep...brilliant quote indeed..
...or, is it the other way round?
52:57 - Flatulence that can no longer be held back, ricochets off the leather chair... "Ok, you want to challenge that" was a pivotal moment of this discussion.
Three portly gentlemen looking very at home in chairs, “trying to make yogurt from water” as the Sufi’s say.
Do this again soon. I’m huge fan of Vervaeke and Schmactenberger’s work. This was a great introduction to McGilchrist. These are deep conversations the world
needs more of.
I can't believe Terence McKenna is sat in the middle😅
Me too! 😂😂😂
This is so good, I need ten more hours and a hundred more after! thank you for this!
R. Steiner said 'it's not what you teach, it's who you are'. I have experienced teaching with no outside interference and it was wonderful.
I was lucky enough as a child in London to have teachers who I revered. My children and grandchildren seem to be less lucky.
❤Thanks for this incredible dialogue. I will return to this often.
I'm listening gentlemen. I feel nourished by these conversations and wish to be ble to share in the space with you. I cannot express accurately my deep pull and push to living in a state which best embodies all of which you have spoken about and referred to.
I am currently looking for land for me and my family and would invite you all immediately to host any events to help to start to practice these things and explore how it may unfold.
All my sincerest and most joyful love xxxx thank you all X
I tuned into this conversation a few different times now. There are many layers that are worth listening to.
I listened to it backwards and forgot how to think.
@@thesh1ttyactivist I listened to it in my sleep and no longer exist.
Please share one of the layers that appealed to you most.
* Daniel Schmachtenberger has risen like the sun in terms of being an intellectual powerhouse and holding his ground and even offering key insights among these two. Good on him. He doesn't play any political games, he doesn't take sides, he isn't grifting for any ulterior motives; he's everything Jordan Peterson should have been.
Dude advocates for genocide repeatedly. Look at his 2019 Weinstein interview, he states the Dunbar number sets limits to empathy in large populations and therefore the population must be reduced. If you do the math though, the size the population needs to be in order to be stable is very small compared to what it is now. Something like 100 million. There is no way to get the population to this number in such a short time without some form of genocide.
I'll listen. I hope that is my experience too.
Ever since he essentially accepted vax mandates in covid and sought to make them palatable, I have been unimpressed by him.
It goes to show,, people can be very knowledgeable, but a well- balanced person without a blind side is another matter. Don’t laugh when someone beliefs the unbelievable. Though amazing, the psyche is a maze of infinite variety.
It goes to show,, people can be very knowledgeable, but a well- balanced person without a blind side is another matter. Don’t laugh when someone beliefs the unbelievable. Though amazing, the psyche is a maze of infinite variety.
@@MeganLeibovici That's probably because he follows the science on vaccines. They work. If you ever found Jordan Peterson to be profound then I question your critical thinking skills.
The excitement was palpable. The discovery of another mind that can facilitate each other’s expansion and the joy of diligently earned discovery.
Evolved minds. These guys before any dressed up guru. Incredible 👏🏻
This is an extraordinarily accurate conversation pointing to the need for a spiritual re-awakening of what is called the perrenial wisdom. As a 4th Way seeker, i can affirm many correlates from personal experience regarding many of the "indications" presented and therefore can implore anyone who resonates with this conversation to seek out a true spirutual community. There are many and yet most operate under the radar. Gurdjieff groups connected with rhe students of the spiritual master can be found throughout the world. When i listen to Iain and John in particular i feel like im listening to an experienced 4th Way aspirant. Very encouraging to me.
The answer is not specialised theosophical doctrines where master song sentences mentally within disciples minds...rather not to confuse masses with complicated rationals about made doctrines that psychologists use in oversophistication. Ideas enunciated very fast in conversations area prìe son of a regurgitated ego.
You will live and die without any impact of that so-called philosophy you mention. Lone man hallucinations
thank you...this dialogue gives me hope for humanity...
This is like straight out of The School of Athens. It’s the most enlightening and beautiful conversation of our time. I love it.
Wonderful conversation wish more people would listen
1/28/24… please continue this conversation in this work. I am just a lone soul, a small incentive of will, yet I fully support this undertaking passionately. Thank you.
These men are at the pinnacle of reasonable consideration of these issues, and have come together with their vastness and depth of knowledge for us.
What a thought-provoking discussion. I am currently immersed in reading Ian's first book, and I must say I'm looking forward to engaging with the works of John Vervaeke and Daniel Schmachtenberger to gain a more rounded perspective of how these three gentlemen view the world. It seems the issue at hand revolves around imbuing logos or teaching human beings how to exist in the world in a way that makes us more present and in touch with our current situations, as opposed to the delusions we construct to protect ourselves. If we could see the forest for the trees, a community would not allow a sociopath or a psychopath to become powerful for the same reason a swarm values the whole as more important than the individual. Thank you for sharing
The human gut surrounds dangerous bacteria, which are very important for the overall system, with friendly "well-meaning" organisms...due to a focal point.
Wisdom through relationship with the sacred. A way forwards. Another conversation please 😊
Thank you all so much for this enriching and insightful conversation. It crystallises so much that is helpful on an ongoing basis. I am a practising Buddhist so much of what you all said chimed with the direction I'm oriented to. I'm also someone who sees potential in the world and what blocks it. The left/right hemisphere struggle is indeed writ large in certain societal issues. For example, I would say that the current conflict in the NHS is Britain is between the empathic, vocational medically trained staff and the bureaucratic, controlling , managerial structures which are the ones supported by the government. Most people either working in or treated by the NHS deeply know and understand what has true value but the administrators somehow think they are the "grown-ups". It has also something to do with how we collectively understand what money is. Money is styled as being "scarce" when in fact it is only artificially (and ideologically) so. It is the world's resources and the ecosphere that have limits and money needs to be oriented in a way that increase harmonious relationality rather than being seen as "scarce". It needs to be seen not as "stuff" eg gold coins, or in "coffers" but as an enabling flow.
Beautifully said! RE money as flow, it's in one of its other (English) names even: currency - a current, a flow. Much potential for orientational improvement towards an enabling flow there...
Please do continue the conversation, it is very stimulating and can only bring the best in people. Deep Thanks to you 3!
Please continue this dialogue!
Please, definitely more conversations! This was profound.
I love UA-cam. My mum always think I’m crazy for paying UA-cam premium… but I love watching these videos… no ads…. Can download… learn, reflect, ponder and understand….
UA-cam is the best
Such a brilliant discussion. Thank you so much for airing this! Yes, don’t despair….
I don't want to sound pretentious, but, it feels SO good to be able to indulge in substantive and real intellectual conversation. This stands out so much! Beyond needed. TYVM!!!
Im following this for my own benefit, but if you get lost and are still interested here is my take. First 50 minutes is position stating. I’m 48 minutes in. McG. seems agitated. He’s perspiring where the other two aren’t, the room cannot be that hot. Something seems a bit off, I don’t Vervaekes hand movements help to build rapport. Between 53 and 56 minutes there is a rather Pythonesque exchange, maybe ego is a driver of the metacrisis. At 56 minutes Daniel is invited back in, there is an unsubtle edit which suggests something went on in the room, perhaps a reminder to the academics about the purpose of the discussion, this is a very good intervention by Daniel.
Around 1 hour McG. talks about three relationships that have been trashed: with each other in a community, with nature and with the sacred, these, in his words, bring meaning. These are more related to the right hemisphere. This is a good framework imho.
Vervaeke has not been invited to speak for 20 minutes. 56 mins to 1hr 16 mins, is it because McG. Doesn’t play well with others?
At 1 16 Daniel boils things down to those with influence in the world are power seeking (in the left hemisphere grasping way) and therefore not wise, he asks Vervaeke to talk about how we can bind the left hemisphere, he also talks about closing the evolutionary niche that rewards sociopathic narcissists in the first place. I don’t think we bing power with wisdom as the caption at this point says. I thing we rebalance left and right hemisphere and wisdom emerges.
At 1 20 Vervaeke offers an example of connection as meaning making ‘having a kid’ regardless of all the negative consequences of health and other forms of well being. Daniel jumps on this and related having a child to sacrifice which is connected to ‘sacred’ strengthening the connection between McGs framework and Vervaekes statement…excellent facilitation. Going to stop here May pick up in another comment
Awesome:-) I was looking for this comment at found it in yours. Pythonesque exchange, it sounds right, i dont understand it though. But yeah, something seems off in the first hour between Iain and Vervaeke.
The other day I heard mcg say that he “dosnt speak with pop psychologists/academics” - I wonder if that has something to do with it, maybe Vervaeke is too American for Mcg’s taste - or something like that.
Im probably off, but i think that encounter (pytha..) was interesting.
I am convinced, based on my day-to-day experiences, that you/we are far from alone gentlemen. It’s that those doing this work don’t tend frequent Twitter-X and other negative feeling forms of social media. That plus the traditional media’s ’if it bleeds it leads’ focus and some may think we are a minority. Personally, I don’t think so.
Please, keep the discussion going! 💞💜💞
This is an absolute goldmine of help with targeted thinking by applying the study of these learned folks to one's own work. I've already found so many parallels I can use to help shape my work - super grateful! Also serving as confirmation I'm on the right track with my ideas.
Looking forward to this conversation! Thanks
Such a wonderfully deep, meaningful, knowledgeable, beautiful, rich, creative conversation full of warmth, empathy, goodness and wisdom. One of the best I have ever listened to. Thank you so much. Better than a talk.
Half way through, but probably the best discussion I’ve ever heard.
Thank you all. Stay blessed
Wonderful conversation. Please continue.
This is a gift and I'm thankful for it . I'd hug ya but I'm just words on a screen right now.
Wow!!! I'm moved, blown away and inspired by this meeting of three incredible thinkers
There wasn’t a single word shared in the entire conversation that was not a deep, unified truth of the highest quality, order, and profundity.
My three most favourite people in the world I go back to very often and quote. We need a session two focusing on practical strategies
I've been noshing on this statement lately by W. Christopher Epler from what he titled The Zoom of Abandon (a rhapsody of personality transcending perception)- "When all boundaries become insides of outsides and outsides of insides, then all "relata" disappear into relationship."
What's your interpretation?
Hey, that was one of the best conversations I have ever seen on UA-cam! Looking forward to the next episode!
Wonderful conversation about all that matters! Thank you :)
Thank you. Heartwarming, hopeful, inspiring. Highly recommended.
In awe with these thought-provoking subjects expressed in this conversation. Big admirer of Daniel, through which I now come to learn about Ian and John. Don’t mind me. I’m just liking commenting and subscribing to help spread this a bit 😊
Dr McGilchrist your work is so incredibly incisively important! It really makes sense of so much of what we're seeing in the world...
Please, part 2!
I heard every word you guys said and it was marvelous. I would love it if you could get together again and go deeper on some specifics.
Conversations like these are the closest thing I have to a cure for my own loneliness. However, one thing that surprises me is that you don't dive to deep into the poor parenting issue seeing as you mentioned it as playing a role in the development of psychopathic leadership.
Or the question of family altogether. Our broken society is built on the breaking apart of families. We used to be generational, now nearly half the adult population of the US is single. That's a massive change overnight, evolutionary speaking, with far-reaching consequences. The risk of poor parenting is obviously much greater with 1-2 parents than in a large generational family.
@@ximono Birth control, overpopulation evangelism, casual sex, etc....there's a whole host of issues that are contributors.
Parents need more accountability and teachers need to get back to the fundamentals. Both are selfish and lazy. It was shocking to see into the classroom during the lockdowns when my kids were doing remote learning.
The sooner you stop publicly screeching your discomfort, the better your life may become.
Many more people need to subscribe to his channel. He explains all of the craziness the control the cancel culture that is happening now at warp speed.
This kind of information, how to think through the meaning of your life …. was NEVER thought in school and University. As a 50sothing year old man, I understand completely this talk because I have been exploring this since my literature undergrad. My opinion is that this is in purpose to level down our collective awareness
As someone with a BA in philosophy, we definitely talked about these kind of things. Sad to see the departments being rooted from colleges nowadays though.
I’m only half way through but so far the discussion is fairly seamless. Even where an extra stitch may have been needed, the fabric still flows beautifully. Thank you! And more please! 👏
A beautifull comment
‘You’ve given me a language that I may go back to the religion I was brought up in and re-home myself.’
I envision a peaceful transition in power dynamics (when I'm not enraged lol) I think the world is more than hungry for it. The curtain has been so thoroughly pulled back on the intentions of those in charge of their own doing. 1:17:46
Does anyone have a link to the 2019 UK survey John mentions at 22:00?
Brilliant conversation, thank you!
thank you so much. This is deep, wise and profound beyond words. It took me to the numinous and gives me hope. More please!
Jack Dorsey is way smarter than we though! In all seriousness, Daniel has got to be one of the best moderators out there. Brilliant, and sharp.
Thank you for sharing an enlightening and thought-provoking discussion. "To fall in love with being..." as mentioned by John, I feel is fundamental to our survival as a single species. For each person to become both their own master and emissary, recognising they are THE sacred aspect of life which can renew and birth new possibilities. For me, the Meaning Crisis is a Spiritual Crisis where we humans have become disconnected from Nature and all life, seeing ourselves as nothing more than mentally driven animals. If we can take responsibility for our actions, words and behaviours and know that we are channels of an energetic life force that can work for the good, we will then fall in love with being, and with all of those "BEings" we share our world with. In essence, the Sacred is within, it is not an extrinsic state and cannot be sought extrinsically. Again, deep gratitude for sharing, blessings Lilah (Cape Town, South Africa) 🙏
In narrowing my focus: it gets really interesting in 1:56:00. Where they have established some things they agree on and move it toward a solution. And while it’s not a specific solution it’s a ground, foundation that’s set with some criteria that can be pushed forward in the practical way they only just began to explore by the end of the video.
On the edge of my seat waiting for the next conversation!
With the local idea people in various focuses in their life can share their ideas about how these ideas can be applied in education, nursing, etc (insert any institution where a movement forward can be achieved for all and on an individual level as well).
Excited for the possibilities. But man is it hard to have restraint while looking to achieve this endeavor…
Definitely worth a followon on practical implications.
Interesting timing to hear the bell ring as the conversation dives deeper into religion as potential meta crisis solution.
Thank you to make these thoughts available here.
Thank you for pointing out the odd use of the word reification Iain.
Great talk, great minds! Also demonstrated some of the potential blindspots in Schmachtenberger's tendency to totalistic, organizational, top-down thinking.
I think the trouble is people misunderstand "go with the flow" they are following someone else's flow and are lost to their own. 1::57:28
Wonderfully insightful, intelligent exchange on critically important subjects. As a visual artist I particularly enjoy the discussions touching on right hemisphere function and the importance of integrating the two hemispheres in the direction of mutual respect and cooperative interplay.
The essence of Reverence comes to mind..Excellent debate very engaging and stimulating...Thank you!
I'm able to connect when Iain McGilchrist talks but the other two fellas feel so heady/analytical to me; enjoying it all nonetheless.
Even Schmachtenberger? I find it easy to follow his train of thought compared to the other two. Although McGilchrist does speak very eloquently and is a pleasure to listen to. Vervaeke often becomes too analytical for me. And I agree, having the three of them in the same room, tackling the big questions - what a treat!
@luluwebdesign: Same here.
I have long highly appreciated Iain's deep wisdom, and it is arduous but useful to listen carefully to John's perspective.
Thank you. It would be helpful if each of the speakers and their work were briefly introduced, perhaps with a link
Google it
Again? I have seen this one before.
Thank you all again.
🙏❤️🌍🕊🌿🎵🎶🎵
He's reposting it - the original was on the Consilience Project channel. I was confused as well.
wonderful! Thank You!
My second time listening. Thank you. We can only pray that people as thoughtful, intelligent and wise as you three are helping to guide AI.
We needn't pray, we need promote in the physical.
Master composer of conversation in your quality of questions towards answers that lead a discussion towards the direction of solutions.
Wonderful treat and more to follow on...
I think they got there in the final minute.... Center the Mystery of existence: Gratitude and Humility, properly oriented, will drive a sacred obligation (which I dub service) that generates wholeness and explorative spirit
That's a concise first question posed. Punchy and to the point.
I really hope you continue to do these trialogues, maybe monthly? Thank you!!
Really great. Thank you all.
Thank you all three for doing your very best to give what you call the metacrises attention. Very good questions and exploration around this, also in my opinion, important topic in and about the (future) reality of humanity. A great time of mine spendt listening - hope you will continue the discussion when possible.
I am grateful to Daniel for keeping the focus on solutions. . . although there seems to be no VIABLE, IMPLEMENTABLE solutions to the metacrisis we currently face and that has been beautifully articulated by these lofty thinkers -
Anyone know the name of the story referenced here 1:35:40
?
We’re in “The Fourth Turning” and conversations like this are just what we need to get through it.