The Doctor Who Anniversary Nobody Asked For
Вставка
- Опубліковано 21 лис 2024
- Not all Doctor Who anniversary specials are created equally, and 1988's Silver Nemesis is a prime example of an anniversary that fails to make an impact. But what went wrong with this 25th anniversary celebration?
Edited by @joeyunderwood
► Patreon
/ harbowholmes
► Subscribe!
/ harbowholmes
► Support me on Ko-Fi!
ko-fi.com/harb...
► Twitter
/ harbowholmes
► Discord
/ discord
► Reddit
/ harbowholmes
#DoctorWho #ClassicWho #Review
Heaven Sent review THIS WEEK! Head to my Patreon to see it a whole day early when it drops:
www.patreon.com/harbowholmes
That one's such an underrated gem!!!
@Harbo check your history! Russia and Germany were allies until 1941 when Germany invaded Russia causing Russia to switch sides,luckily for the world that they did‼️
Would just like to point out that every point you made was great, but when you questioned the “communist” cybermen teaming up with fascists you have to realise that it happened in real life. Look up the Molotov Ribbentrop pact and you’ll know what I mean.
It’s pretty much universally accepted by fans that Remembrance of the Daleks is the real 25th Anniversary but even with that removed from this story, it’s still a well done, enjoyable piece of television and hardly the worst from the 7th Doctor. Part One also has one of the greatest pieces of cliffhanger music ever used in Doctor Who.
I was going to pretty much say what you said
Really? I consider battlefield to be the real 25th anniversary.
The fact it has the brigadier and Bessie along with the acknowledgement of unit improving after the five doctors.
One thing about the McCoy era that I must compliment is the special effects, they've actually aged pretty well for the most part introducing 3D CGI into the show. In fact it's the best the classic show looked with some truly impressive sets
The statue itself wasn't all that special, as I recall. I bet the BBC costume department were over the moon when "Standard 17th Century Costume (Female)" came back sprayed silver.
I had this on VHS. It was the only Doctor Who video I had and from 1993 to 1996 was pretty much the only Doctor Who content I had access to. I watched it so much and have such fond memories that I can't be unbiased about it. I accpet that it is basically the same storyline as Remembrance and the 3 different evil sides don't really get enough individual time but the intrigue it added to the Doctor and the performances from McCoy and Aldred were great.
It is genuinely kind of weird how little Silver Nemesis calls back to Doctor Who's past for an anniversary story. Most of the references to the show's history come in the form of behind the scenes in jokes most regular viewers wouldn't get (like the tourist crowd you mentioned, and the fact that the mathematician who Lady Peinforte kills was played by an actor who came very close to playing the First Doctor).
It's especially glaring when compared to Remembrance, which has a lot more callbacks.
Hearing about the Cartmel plan made me grin because when I first watched this story, I couldn't help thinking it felt like it was foreshadowing the Timeless Child. Now I know why.
Cartmel himself debunked the defense that The Timeless Child is a version of his masterplan. The Cartmel Masterplan was to add mystery and foreboding, not exposition out an over-the-top backstory.
@marshallhuffer4713 It definitely would have been better than what we got
I don't think much of either. It's virtually impossible to put mystery into a character after so long and so many references to his home, his family, his tepid academic history.
To me the Doctor is the protagonist of the stories, not the subject of them. The Doctor was never a superhero god like being, just some schmuck who dropped out, stole his boss's van and went off having adventures.
Solid video man. A few things I would just quickly add ---
- Interestingly, the VHS copy has the extended cut, including the betrayal and the lack of success of killing the Cyber Leader with gold-dust, as well as a cute bit where we see 7 leading a duck out of the TARDIS, and a moment where Peinforte prepares for battle, which actually has one of my favorite bits of Keff McCulloch's entire musical library for the series (him being, in my opinion, an underrated composer)
- I wouldn't call Richard at all an incompetent character, as for the most part his bumbling was due to being out of time; in combat and in the 1638, he is shown to be fully competent overall. As for his simping for Lady Peinforte, they mention that she saved Richard from execution, so his simping was, more or less, out of a life debt.
- The scene of Ace and 7 bringing the bow to Nemesis was very clumsy, but the scene of Nemesis arising, everything from the glow and explosions to the loud angry scream and surreal-but-overpowering music really making it a genuine stand-out moment.
- The bit of the Punks in Part 2 was actually in direct response to a recent rise in violent crimes in England, mostly performed by punks like the ones in the episode. This was more or less an inside societal joke of the time, like if David Tennant had to deal with a couple of impossibly difficult hipsters (this confused me for years as well)
- I thought Ace was particularly awesome in this episode, and I did like the idea of how she was scared more than ever before, however I felt this was entirely wasted - it literally just comes down to her saying so, 7 offering her the option to return to the TARDIS, and her rejecting this notion.. It's then never brought up again (even in deleted moments)
- One really neat moment is not only how Peinforte reveals that she knows who The Doctor really is, but when she reveals that she knew, The Doctor immediately gives into her demands. Now, it seems that her plan was ultimately going to carry out almost identical to his own, so it's possible that he just did this as a momentary in-case response, but the idea that he would capitulate to a villain because they knew who he was is quite an intriguing one. Sadly the moment is over in about 20 seconds anyway.
- The Jazz musician at the opening was actually an up-and-coming talent that agreed to appear in the episode, more or less playing himself, liking the idea that The Doctor would like his music.
- The "Living Metal" element was re-explored in Journey To the Centre of the TARDIS -- I really dug this, but it's never made clear if this is at all connected to the same Living Metal from which Nemesis was made.
- As you sort of allude to, "Silver Anniversary" is usually synonymous with "25th Anniversary", so that is why Silver had to feature in some way (I think it was JNT's wish to have silver involved, although beyond the title I'm not sure what Silver is in reference to, as it could be either the extra-silver colored Cybermen, or the kinda-sorta silver color of the statue -- I'm guessing the latter)
Personally, I liked the episode, but I would give it a 3 out of 5 at best (maybe a 2.5 out of 5 at worst). It's just so painfully average, and it doesn't help that the concepts and outline of the story is practically identical to those of Rememberance, making these two even more directly comparable (and Remembrance just being much better in almost every way)
problem was that doctor who at the time was fighting for survival and generally against coronation st would the bbc fork out anymore at the time for a special also Patrick troughton had died, tom would of refused. back then you didnt have sirens of time or four doctors so all would of been needed to have an equal share as dark dimension was based for tom baker only
To me, the real 25th anniversary was Remembrance of the Daleks. Sure it didn't actually air around the 25th anniversary, but neither did The Three Doctors. From the cold open, to the return to Shoreditch, to the Doctor taking care of some unfinished business from this first incarnation, every part of that story just screamed "anniversary special."
I watched this go out live at the BBC where I was doing my work experience at the time and recorded the episode direct to 1/4 inch tape from the broadcast 'ring main' channel (that all BBC buildings had for getting direct feeds from any BBC channel live broadcasting for use in other programmes etc) with the continuity announcement. I still treasure it to this day as a keepsake from a wonderful time .
But communists and nazis did actually become allies and even partition territories between each other in the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.
They even captured Poland together.
Very true! I suppose they had a very complicated relationship. I more meant contemporary, post-war Nazis would be a lot less likely to tolerate any kind of relationship with Communists (and vice versa)
@@HarboWholmesCommunist and Nazis are allies in Syria, sharing the same alliance in the Syrian parliament. Additionally, Communists collaborated with Nazis throughout occupied Europe, most notably in France and even in concentration camps to an extent. In Britain, the Communist Party was anti-war until Barbarossa, seeing Nazis as equally evil to liberals and conservatives. This still remains true for followers of Bordiga or ultra-left communists, showing that it wasn’t some pragmatic policy during WW2.
I already said this in the community post, but my biggest problem is the similarities with Remembrance of the Daleks. 3 warring factions, one of those factions being a group of Neo Nazis that attempts to team up with the established villain, the Doctor stealing ancient Gallifreyean technology that all sides are fighting for, and the Doctor ultimately using said piece of technology to cripple one of his enemies.
fun fact: Leslie French who played the mathematician in this story auditioned to play the First Doctor
The 15th anniversary was nearly celebrated in The Stones of Blood with a scene that was scripted with Romana giving the Doctor a 751st birthday cake but it got cut before recording as too self-indulgent. The story also contained the 100th episode. Not much else to say about it really.
100th story. The 100th episode was in the 60’s.
@@jbcatz5 Whoops! Right! 100th story with 500th episode in it on the 15th anniversary.
“Is this the human condition called madness, Leader?”
“It is.”
In an updated version of 'The Arc-Hive Tapes' which was written by David Banks (who played the Cyberleader throughout the 80s) it was suggested that the Cybermen were the last of the Cybermen left over from Attack of the Cybermen and that they had at most 3 ships with the rest being an illusion
In ATTACK their race was almost extinct, hence the Cyber Controller’s desperate attempt to change history.
ATTACK showed that the Cybermen were preparing to abandon Telos in preparation for the return of Mondas.
In SILVER NEMESIS it looked like the Cybermen had once again discovered time travel (they got lucky in ATTACK when they captured a time ship that landed on Telos for emergency repairs). This would explain the appearance of modern Cybermen in 1988.
Still Sliver Nemesis is my favourite episode in my opinion
So Harbo is just going to ignore the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact? Yes, it ended in betrayal, and everyone involved knew it would, just one was quicker on the trigger, but betrayal is also in Silver Nemesis, emphasizing the parallels.
Just a bit of a writing oversight from me, sorry! But I did more mean the modern Nazis/Communists
@@HarboWholmes I appreciate the honesty. Everyone makes mistakes, might have been quick to judge as some people are genuinely unaware of history, sadly.
Yeah I should've done better tbh, especially considering WW2 Germany was a big part of my History GCSE years ago lmao
Since it came up naturally, everyone knows the daleks are based on the nazis.
But we’re the cybermen based on communism/Marxism/soviet communism, whatever you call it?
How they remove sex, class, religion, individuality etc they believe they’re improving the world and helping their victims, but they’re just stalling human development, deleting anybody who doesn’t conform or inhibits their mission to upgrade humanity.
I did quite like the extended version on the vhs. Because all the chess references and the hints he's playing a game on a bigger scale. Which we learned in due course was against fenric. Those make it work much better. But who asked for it? Fandom. Back in the day we wanted continuity and references, and this was such.
What turns out to be more entertaining than "Silver Nemesis" is the hour-long "The Making of..." documentary, made by the New Jersey Network (NJN) --- the PBS family of stations serving the U.S. State of New Jersey. During the 1980s, NJN was the biggest promoter of "Doctor Who" in America.
I don't know if these videos are very popular but I'm really enjoying the Classic Who reviews and will watch every one you make!
It would have been really cool if this got to be a multi-doctor story which saw 7 & Ace team up with the Third Doctor (no need of a companion, just say it is some time after The Ultimate Adventure before he travels with Sarah, or better yet he's dropped off Sarah somewhere in history to enjoy herself like 10 or 11 would do with Rose or the Ponds or he's close to the end of his life where he will regenerate soon in Planet Of The Spiders- a reverse of Twice Upon A Time ). I doubt Jon Pertwee would've said no and been busy, especially when compared to JNT's attempted coup to recruit Prince Edward into the special as a guest-star. Imagine it may have some what improved things, with an arc of distrust and uncertainty with 3 thinking at first 7 is just like 2, no matter how 7 tries to convince him otherwise (bit of spoon work to entertain Ace giving 3 some flashbacks to that blasted recorder!) and even so Ace & 3 seem to bond ok, 3 even teaching her some hand-to-hand like Venusian aikido that she could use on a Neo-Nazi later on when cornered but things begins to prove that appearances can be deceiving as 3 notices how dark 7 can be and 7's reactions to the allusions of their past when brought up. Because if 6 can have a story with 2 what would've been wrong with 3 & 7 teaming up? At the end of the adventure, 3 parts ways with 7 and Ace and although he has grown to respect 7, seeing him as his own incarnation and not a copy of 2, he also is worried about 7 and how far he will go and how it may affect Ace so he wishes them farewell and to be careful and look after one another before leaving in his TARDIS. You get a TV multi-doctor story in 7's era and 3 gets a Cyberman story. Obviously improvements are necessary to the story but I feel like including the Third Doctor gives more character moments and allusions to the Cartmel Masterplan in action with the idea of the Doctor being afraid of his past and future and you also give both 7 & Ace more to to do, rather than listening to Jazz and whistling in fields wandering in the fields when they should be doing more important plot stuff surely. Plus would it not be cool to see Ace interacting with another Doctor and not questioning its canonicity like Dimensions In Time, learning a new skill that could fit well with her character and also just show Jon's Doctor passing on his skills and knowledge to the next generation and when Ace admits she's scared 3 gives that classic line of "Courage isn't just a matter of being frightened..." with 7 finishing off the line and 3 actually being impressed that 7 remembers (adding more to 3 beginning to respect this future incarnation of his), which could be more poignant if he will be going back to his own time to regenerate soon and he knows his body is on limited time, and getting to some banger lines to perform and be quoted from in the vein of "Teeth & Curls?" or "Madam, what year is this?!" Just my thoughts on the special and one way to have improved it so it would've been much worthier of it's 25th Anniversary Status and rival Remembrance Of The Daleks. It doesn't solve all the problems I know but I hope some may see it as at least giving it some more love and support of the intentions of the 7th Doctor and Ace's arcs going into Season 26 as well as give more for fans but not being solely for the sake of fan-service.
y'know, whilst I would agree that having more time for more important things would be the more pragmatic choice, the little moments and quieter scenes that give character really add to the story, imo. too often we see in modern editing styles a loss of those sorts of moments, so it's nice to have them in this. also weren't the cybermen more based off of kit pedler being a bit freaked out about things like pacemakers, cybernetic prosthetics and things like artificial heart machines and the fear of humans going too far with these sorts of surgeries and losing who they are, than communism?
And today is the 20th Anniversary of Big Finish's first attempt at an Anniversary special in the form of Zagreus.
And how did that work out?
To me, Remembrance of the Daleks is the true 25th anniversary special.
For a period of the novelisations that would expand on the story, especially when it came to the mystery angle of the Doctor as a character, it’s a shame this story was more like the middle period novelisation. Not quite script to page like Terrance Dicks was churning out but nowhere near Remembrance of the Daleks or Curse of Fenric.
The story also creates a continuity issue by being broadcast for the anniversary. Ace can be seen wearing as a badge an earring she obtains in the next story broadcast.
To be fair the top 9 in 1988 were all bangers! I personally like Silver Nemesis. It was topical for the time with Skinheads.
Is it good? No. It is immensely watchable and crazy fun? Yes.
I enjoyed it.
All i can say is, I was 12 when this went out and I loved it. I am aware now of the shortcoming, because I watch it as a 47 year old. But 12 year old me loved it so job done I guess. Not a great argument but there it is. I loved Paradise Towers when it first went out too so take that as you may.
Yo @HarboWholmes, I’m sure you get requested for this all the time but my dude we need a Children of Earth video. Truly the greatest story in The Whoniverse!
Goodness youtube got me paranoid when I'm expecting the talk about the villain's actor only taking the role to watch sports to lead into a VPN ad read
All I can remember of Silver Nemesis is that bits of it took place in fields and how dreadful the statue looked.
"Mr Turner, how much money have we got to make for making the statue prop?"
"Four pounds twenty three. We've blown the series budget hiring Adrian Mole for the next story."
"The best we can do, then, is spray paint the actress silver."
"Wow, that would look so great. Yeah, go for it!"
well the Nazis did technically team up with the soviets for a period of time ( the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and the invasion of Poland ) so Cybermen teaming up with neonazis is nothing to surprising
There’s no body horror aspect to the Cybermen, which for all its flaws Attack of the Cybermen embraced perhaps to a fault. Aside from the gold weakness you could slot in any generic monster and it’d work. The gold weakness too isn’t the most consistent, with Earthshock having shown it was gold clogging up the breathing units rather than simply contact with gold that did them in. As sillily named as the glitter gun is it also uses the clogging line of reasoning.
Love ATTACK. Lots of horror - and it’s about the Cybermen - not just another alien invasion story.
The closest SILVER NEMESIS came to showing “body horror” was the silly little headset de Flores was forced to wear when undergoing Cyber conditioning.
The scenes of Cybernisation in ATTACK were fascinating to see. Only briefly shown with Toberman in TOMB and hinted at with Tobias Vaughn (partially converted) and his warehouse workers (lifting the heavy containers with Cybermen in their cocoons).
One thing you didn’t mention about Diffring was that during the recording of the making of Silver Nemesis he said he’d been approached several times before to be in the show but declined as he wasn’t a fan of Science Fiction.
Andrew Cartmel is on record (on a UA-cam vid) saying he thinks the Timeless Child idea was terrible. I don't like the Cartmel Masterplan myself, but it wouldn't have divided the fandom and put the show in such need of repair like the Timeless Child concept has.
“Some garden jazz”. That’s a cameo from Courtney Pine.
The 7th Doctor's Tenure is a real puzzle. Some stories are unbearably silly and other stories are overstuffed with ideas. Silver Nemesis is one of the latter. it really only needed one villain, the Cybermenm and would have been much improved if Lady Peinforte and the Nazis had been left out.
Talking about anniversaries. The 60th. I wonder if Gallifrey will get a mention.
Nevermind the Timeless Child thing.
Personally I like the Full Fat Videos suggestion that TTC is not the Doctor and she/he now resolves to go and find the true one and try and make amends and stuff. Whilst the Master, well er, he's dead isn't he?
The Doctor IS the timeless child, wether we want it or not. Davies has said repeatedly he will just ignore it but won't outright undo it.
I did not know of Anton D’ personal life.
This story, if they will do a full re-edit,…well, more details and story elements,…yet it’s still “waffle”
The plot, and competing villains, and the “mystery” do not matter.
Jazz, by Courtney Pine 😎
9:23 That didn't stop them before.
thanks for this, trying to get a clear picture, is there a ripped copy of the extended vhs release? sorry if this seems a silly question
"You don't have to be a historian to think it's strange for the Cybermen who represent communism to align themselves with Nazis"
Hitler and Stalin starting the WWII together: 👁👄👁
I think the reason why people hate Silver Nemesis is the fact The Cybermen are not the main villians Lady Peinforte was as the Nemesis statue was based off her.
It's funny to see Ace with fez
Great review. I've tried to like this story over the years, but it's just so strange that there's so much potential for plot development and so much useless and cringy padding. Dr Who padding can be fun, but this was just an underdeveloped mess.
You know this series of the 7th doctor era had a thing for Neo-Nazis they were in Silver Nemesis, remembrance of the daleks (called the association) & maybe in a certain interpretation of Happiness Patrol I have no comment for the season finale as I haven't seen it before.
25th anniversary is silver hence the story involving Cybermen.
13:48 I see what you did there. 😅
15:23 You do it again, you say "Omega" and then "Omeega" to troll us once again. Yes, 3 Doctors got it wrong a few times, but didn't Arc of Infinity set the record straight?
18:02 NO! You stop right there! How are we supposed to forget that thing you almost mentioned if you keep bringing it up?!?!? Do Not let NewWHO fans know how bad Classic DW can be! Please, have you no love in your hearts?
This video title actually fits the 60th anniversary pretty well
Will you also do a review about Zagreus, considering it's technically the 40th anniversary story? Or will you stop at Dimensions In Time?
It exists for the use of the word nemesis in the title! Nothing more or less
I honestly never realised this was supposed to be an anniversary special when i watched it.
Understandable. It’s mediocre DW.
Truth of the universe: The the bacteria. The bacteria. Universe is neuron microorganism the the bacteria. I am infertile from eating scented candles. The
Ugh. I've always hated the use of the gold-tipped arrows in this story, and even though I adore Ace, the gold-coins in a slingshot are even worse. The gold-vulnerability is down to the breathing-apparatus. It's not supposed to be like Kryptonite-bullets, but whatever goes I guess.
Yeah, the Cybermen looked great, with their newly-chromed helmets, updated gloves and bodysuits, but man, they come off as complete chumps (as you said) in this story. Overall, the narrative beats are just far too similar to the superior "Remembrance of the Daleks," and the whole serial becomes one big disappointment.
The cyber men were cool I guess
This episode feels like a weird mix of remembrance and battlefield (the one with the brigadier and morgana the sorceress). Why watch this when there are two other stories with similar elements that were overall much better ?
It's ok though, not super bad.
Why does this even exist…
You better put those words over every Chibs era video you ever make.
Good review of Silver Nemesis! This story is not the best story and when I saw a rip-off of Indiana Jones and I think this is a rip-off of Remembrance of the Daleks. I count Remembrance of the Daleks as the 25th Anniversary. I did not know the production was really messy. If I had to make some rewrites, I would make it a multi-Doctor story and have the 3rd to 6th Doctors in this story. Oh No! Not Dimensions in Time that's not cannon! 🤣
I really like this story ngl
I don’t hate it but I would rather have remembrance any day
8th Doctor Disney + show please 🙏
Thoroughly enjoyed how Nazis were mentioned and Jontron popped up immediately after.
I know what you mean about communists and fascists teaming up, it is weird but you have to keep in mind this actually happened in real life with the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.
Who is the third major Doctor Who villain? We got Daleks, Cybermen and...?
The Master
@@jaydemetrick8399 right yes of course. For some reason, I was fixated on races that I forgot the singular biggest threat.
The Sontarans.
This was a so so episode. But having Sylvester McCoy made it tolerable.
Basically she knew the doctor was the timeless child
They say "south America" like it was a country. Is like a movie or tv show saying that the story unfolds in "Europe"
the idea is silver anniversary wats silver cybermen
It’s disliked because it’s not really any sort of anniversary ok yes it falls on the anniversary but it was not designed to celebrate the show in anyway it’s just a basic episode of doctor who on its own it’s a decent story but as an anniversary people expected more
Really interesting will u look at zagreus aswell? Ahahaha
I dont mind this story when I watch it but i can see that its a very bland and uninteresting story, never mind an anniversary special. I do like the look of the Cybermen however.
"No one likes us, we don't care"
👀
Genuinely the only classic who story I despise
There is plenty worse than SILVER NEMESIS in classic DW.
For me, the whole “KEY TO TIME” season is even worse.
Can you honestly say that DELTA AND THE BANNERMEN is better than SILVER NEMESIS?
Has this young man never heard of the Hitler-Stalin Pact? @HarboWholmes please learn pre WWII history? The pre WII period made for strange bedfellows.
Everyone always criticises the Timeless Child twist as "making the Doctor some kind of important Chosen One figure", but I disagree. The Doctor is still the same person as always. They're just a lot older than they realised, and the role they played in founding the Time Lord society was as an exploited victim.
Everyone's complaints about it feel much more relevant to the Cartmel Master Plan.
😂😂 the very fact that gay Jewish man makes his money by playing Nazis in films is more funny to me than the gay Nazi in the British TV comedy allo allo 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 now I will get back to watching the rest of review
Let’s be honest the Sylvester McCoy era wasn’t great,no fault of the actors 💙💙🔷🔷
I disagree season 25 and 26 are in my top 10 of the classic series
@@nathanielfarkas4431Agreed. Silver Nemesis is literally the only subpar story from those two seasons, IMO. Remembrance of the Daleks, The Happiness Patrol, Ghost Light, and The Curse of Fenric are all stone-cold classics, and The Greatest Show in the Galaxy, Battlefield, and Survival are near-greats.
Heck, I'd even speak up in defense of the much more uneven season 24. Paradise Towers is the only story that gets done proper justice, but Delta and the Bannermen is pretty fun, and Dragonfire's problems are mostly down to a lackluster production of an excellent script. Only Time and the Rani is genuine rubbish, but even it manages a sort of fun, cheesy B-movie vibe, which at least makes it more tolerable to watch than a most of the terrible stories from the fifth and sixth Doctor eras.
His pointy lips annoy me
Thanks Andrew Cartmel, you just ruined everything, but Chibnall, you are still responsible
Well you need to read more of Doctor who’s past Robert holmes and Philip hinchcliff started the idea of pre doctors
The whole Other thing isn't really Cartmel's doing. The Cartmel Masterplan is kind of misnamed: insofar as it was the brainchild of Cartmel himself, there really wasn't a "plan" to it. It was more a sort of long term goal to seed some mystery into the Doctor's backstory, to get back to the 1960s sense of not knowing who he was or where he came from, before the Time Lords and Gallifrey were revealed. Cartmel didn't intend to actually reveal anything concrete, and doing so would have been counterproductive to his goals.
The actual revelations all came later, in the novels after the 1989 cancelation, and were mostly the work of writer Marc Platt. It's also a bit more complicated than saying the Doctor is the Other, and it's probably closer to say he's a reincarnation of the Other, but without the actual memories. To be fair, I've never been entirely fond of the revelation itself, which largely seems like an overly complicated excuse to allow for the Doctor to have had a granddaughter without having to suggest he ever had actual sex.
But the backstory concerning the origins of Gallifrey and the Time Lords is pretty interesting, and the books in which most of this is revealed (Cat's Cradle: Time's Crucible and Lungbarrow) are enjoyable reads. Which, honestly, makes it feel like the polar opposite of the Timeless Child stuff. I feel like the "Cartmel" Masterplan is a mostly uninspiring idea told well enough to be interesting, while the Timeless Child is a potentially fascinating concept which is largely ruined in the telling (big old expository infodump by the Master and a sort of vague shrug to leave the cleanup to the next showrunner).
Everyone knows remembrance of thr daleks⁸reis the real 25rh special