Proof That ALL Amplifiers Don't Sound the Same
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- Опубліковано 15 жов 2024
- There is a common myth that ALL amplifiers sound the same when not "clipping" or distorting. This isn't always true and in this video I discuss two scenarios that show this to be the case with measurement proof to back it up.
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#amplifiers #audiophile #sound
OMG that Hugo clickbait!
This is below the belt Gene!
The Dayton amp is not linear. Part of the argument is that two amplifiers with linear output not driven to clipping will sound the same. If you raise that upper end with a pre-amp filter that makes total output with the Dayton amp flat, both amps will sound the same. If one amp is not linear 20Hz-20kHz, of course there will be difference in sound.
I thought Hugo was back :(
Seriously. I got fooled too 😆
Where is he?
Where’s Waldo? I mean Hugo? 😅
Me too :(
Click baited us with Hugo. 😂
I agree amps sound different from each other. Even in my room with Klipsch RF-7's, they sound very different when driven by my Sunfire Signature 400-7 amp from my Denon 3313 pre-outs, versus the same receiver's internal amps. The Sunfire produces a much more full, richer and warmer sound, yet with solid and airy highs. The Denon receiver's amps sound a bit harsh and thin. This is all from the same receiver, speakers and room.
Omg l! I thought HUGO was back! Good video Gene, glad to see you are doing well.
I miss Hugo too. Both Gene and Hugo used to provide some comedy relief. My fav is their atmos videos and bouncy house speakers
Yep!! That’s good video with Hugo. You guys made the ultimate duo!
I wish we could have hulk back also
It's called click bait thumbnails.
What happened to Hugo? Just curious...
Amplifiers absolutely sound different. I once had a pair of B&W 802D, as well as a pair of Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor M. Night and day difference in presentation between the two. I also at the time had a couple A/B Parasound Halo amps and had just purchased a class D NAD M22.
Got the NAD in the system with the Bowers speakers...hated it. That diamond tweeter came right at my skull compared to when it was being driven by the Halo, and the difference wasn't subtle. I was about to write off the M22 when on a whim I pulled the Cremonas in from the other room and you know what, I'd never heard them sound so good. You see, the M22 was a MUCH brighter amp than was the Halo, which it turns out was a beautiful match to the soft ring radiator tweeter on the Cremona, whereas a Halo amp on those speakers always sounded wooly. The exact opposite was true when the gear was swapped to the Bowers speakers. Speakers, DACs, amps...they all sound different. I'm actually a bit jealous of guys who can't hear the differences, because they can be satisfied without spending the pile of money I have.
Where is Hugo 🤷♂️
I measured 3 amplifiers (emotiva , rotel and crown).. they do vary slightly but all within their posted manufacturer frequency response .. for instance crown was down 1 db at the high frequencies and that is exactly what the specs said .. emotiva was at +-0.15 db through out , rotel was at +-0.5db .. that said the da30 is kind of a budget amp with no posted frequency response spec that I can find so yes there is no telling how it will perform ..
I drove my JBL 590’s for years with my Denon receiver. Several times I had issues with the Denon seeming like it was overdriven (I had all 11 channels being driven). I did an A/B with a Crown XLS-1502 and an Emotiva XPA-03. Noticeable difference in sound quality using either external amp. The speakers seemed to open up, especially on the high end. The JBL’s are 6ohm and I believe the Denon just could not give them enough power as the impedance lowered and they were being driven hard on those Disney UHD tracks where you really have to crank the volume due to some mixing on the movie.
I really loved the Crown amps, and would have kept them, but they introduced a ground loop that I spent days troubleshooting and could not fix. The Emotiva sounds really good to me, but had no ground loop at all so it stayed.
Great video, Gene.
I would love if you could develop your findings with other amplifiers, and how often have you found clearly measurable differences in amplifiers while testing them.
You mentioned several times that class D is more prone to this than the most common class AB amplifiers.
Since the argument of "all amps sound the same" vs "they all sound different" was (and still is) made mainly outside the class D camp, how often did you measured differences between lower end amps from the likes of Marantz, Sony, Rotel (etc) while operating well within their power ratings, even if driving a most demanding loudspeaker load?
Thank you and cheers.
Hi Gene I just experience this with my stereo system I bought a Onkyo receiver in 2016 and was using it to drive my Acoustic Research speakers 93s I bought new in the early 90s a few days ago I bought a vintage Luxman L 505u . Both of the receiver and intergrated amp are the same output, The Luxman is the first amp to really open up my speakers on the low end without having to adjust any tone controls because of the driver configuration they are like a baby brother to AR9s.(I did update the crossover caps and I had to replace the original woofers because of a cat catastrophe
Bring back Hugo!!!
Glad you brought this up... my head spins with the different types of amplifiers... I really want to start running separates, and want to buy an amp I can have for the next 10 to 15 years... I see the newer OSD line to the home theater realm and that 5 channel amp looks spectacular for 500 bucks... but how does it measure 🤷♂️.... anyways I’ve also heard that the new polk line is super picky on amplifier from multiple reviewers....
forget the measurements. go for an amp from a reputable brand that is known for good amplifiers (NOT sub $1000 stereo or worse multi channel av receivers from japanese brands made in china like yamaha, onkyo, pioneer, kenwood etc.). check the insides for a big transformer and big filter caps with at least 20.000 uF. nichicon gold caps and toshiba output drivers are a plus. forget those hyper digitalized smart devices and instead go for function first. the less knobs the better. rebuilt vintage amplifiers are an option. if you want to use it for stereo, get a stereo amplifier only. leave class D amplifiers alone. get class A, class AB or class A/AB tube hybrids. dont spend $4000 on some designer amplifier with only 5kgs of weight. dont go for less than 10 or 12 kgs for an integrated amplifier, unless you want it to be portable.
for amplifiers material matters. you cannot replace a strong power supply with big filter capacity and strong drivers.
@sgred
How about a Denon avr with an Emotiva Pre and Dr-2 amp?
A take on SR's 1987 article from Julian Hirsch. By which multiple amplifiers were ABX tested (double-blind) with a group of skeptics and believers. The results were participants could not tell the difference between solid state amps. I don't think someone who is sponsored by audio companies can give a unbiased opnion on the matter, and nothing in the video answered the subject matter regardless. Could you hear the difference?
I could not agree more with this reply. Sadly the b.s. is believed more these days than it ever was!!
I went from consumer audio to pro -audio pertaining to amplifiers. I chose Yamaha after doing extensive research. The P-Series (discontinued), have three P3500S's driving Fronts, Center and Surrounds in a 5.1 These class AB amps sound awesome with gobs of clean power down to two ohms. This series of Yamaha amps were extremely popular and highly regarded around 2014-2015. Brute force and power and very efficient...
It's interesting. Sound reinforcement amps in the old days were second rate (soundwise) to audiophile grade stuff. Now I believe it would be hard-pressed to find an audiophile amp that sounds better than my crown.
@@elgringoec No audiophile amp sounds better than your crown??? You're such a joker dude
@@wa2368
Did I say that??? 🤔😮
I've seen it mentioned in quite a few car audio tutorial vids that class D amps have frequency response issues. The sentiment is that they handle bass ok and should only be used for sub woofers. I was a bit sceptical about this but am now re thinking it.
Amplifiers don’t sound the same and Never have. Excellent video. You are absolutely right. Thanks
This was a short but incredibly informative and interesting video...Thanks Gene, and keep listening 👉.
My friend just gave me a Carver C1000a receiver, I guess the amps are very good in that unit, 200wpc. Might use it for garage stereo. Always heard great things about Carver sound, bad things about reliability. I know it's an outdated unit, but I would hate to see that sweet Carver amp go to waste. Any thoughts on Carver AB amps/receivers and the C1000a in particular? I have only ran into Carver eqpt a couple times in my life, and I'm 49. Maybe a little off topic but in the ballpark. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
Eager to see further discussion on this topic.
Great insight. For 2-channel listening I have a Legacy Class A amp and it sounds different than my 7-channel receiver.
No.... really... wow such a revelation.......
Gene ! Hello : Love your channel and appreciate your honesty ! I'd like to know if you could recommend a home theater receiver in the 7 to 8 hundred dollar range ? I live in a small apartment and have mission 774 as my front speakers , a mission 77c center and Polk LS f/x for the rears . Don't know about Atmos per say. My video source is an SKYSTREAM 1 box , which has an HDMI and OPCIAL output , however my Yamaha HTR 5140 doesn't give me Dolby Digital Surround Sound with my Straming Box using Optical Output from the Box to the Optical TV input on the receiver. I do get Dolby Digital when Playing DVD's when going OPTICAL out from DVD player to OPTICAL in on receiver and I can't for the life of me understand what's wrong , unless my streamer sends the DD signal only through HDMI ant not OPTICAL ! Thanks for any help you might give ! Drummers rule !
But how does this translate into actual audible difference? I get that amps can pull back power to stop clipping, but in sound terms does that mean sudden loud sounds (like symbols crashing or heavy drops of bass) just won't be heard as "presently" due to the amp not having the available juice? In simple terms, certain sounds that REQUIRE amplification, just will not be amplified and therefore heard? Is that what you mean?
I've had this gene I'm buying a proac d20r, and I love the sugden anv-50 amp in all the range it sounds super..but , there's a big rolloff at high frequency...I may get a post parametric filter to tip up the treble
Polk is a repair service. My high-priced Polk subwoofer died just after the warranty ran (others have reported the same experience). Replacing the sub amplifier costs almost as much as a new subwoofer. And one can't get the schematic because it's "coprighted". Almost every book in my library is copyrighted, but I can have and read them anyway. So either send in the subwoofer for repair -- shipping on the customer - or buy someone else's subwoofers -- which I did.
Gene, I think people saying that mostly are talking about a B&K 200.5 vs a ATI 1505, similar design amps from the same era. Can I really perceive a difference all else equal? I used to have B&W 602 S1 powered by a Denon 3803 receiver. When I upgraded to that B&K amp and preamp I honestly did not perceive "better" sound at normal levels 50-70db for stereo listening. Now it for sure sounded different at loud volumes or during movie high db parts but I attribute that to the "sound" of more power and cleaner sound at the high db levels. Now I have better speakers, B&W 683's and I still have that receiver, I want to do an a/b test now and see what I find for pure curiosity.
Hey Gene, I'm more or less in the 'amps sound the same' camp, really it's 'electronics sound the same', but there _are_ caveats that go with that. From Peter Aczel almost 30 years ago, _The Audio Critic_ from its Spring through Fall 1991 issue:
"In general, any two components A and B that can be
alternately switched into and out of an audio system in an
AB test will sound the same if (1) their linear characteris-
tics are essentially identical and (2) their nonlinear charac-
teristics are below the threshold of audibility. If you think
about that statement for a minute, you begin to realize that
it‘s a truism rather than a heresy; the trouble is that the
tweaks and cultists often think for less than a minute."
That amp should not have been rated at 4ohms, it wasn't capable of maintaining a flat frequency response over the audio band. Aczel specified for amps:
"Power amplifiers must
have high input impedance, low output impedance, no fre-
quency-response anomalies, and be at all times operated
within their voltage and current capabilities in order to
sound the same. "
Transparent audio just isn't hard, they've known how to design and build it, and how to _test_ it, for a very long time. If some piece of hardware isn't transparent when it should be, there's a problem somewhere, or it could always be gross incompetence, that possibility should never be ignored.
Agreed but without 3rd party measurements, most consumers won't know which amps behave properly into 4 ohm loads. There are esoteric expensive amps that misbehave, not just the cheap stuff.
@@Audioholics Mechtheist doesn't realize that never in this world did an amplifier solely designed by Peter Aczel** exist. So reviewers are just filled with misinformation . I am in the process of going through webinars on many products you carry and other manufacturers. It's a joke the misinformation manufacturers feed to sales people (intentionally and unintentionally). Like mechtheist I have been around a along time but I have 30 years of experience not 1 year of experience x 30. One needs to design an amplifier to realize that you have to make a decision about what value component to use and how those different values change the sound. And do not misunderstand, not an audiophile resistor versus non audiophile resistor but 10Kohm versus 8.4kohm. I once participated in selecting an interstage transformer for one of the best amplifiers there has ever been to play music. The amp designer made 13 slightly different transformers and on 3 seperate days I chose the same transformer each time. It was a single blind test and the order of the transformers was randomized. I was allowed to go 2 rounds reducing the amount of transformers I was comparing for my final selection, For me I was surprised to have continued selecting the same transformer. Measurement differences were almost negligeable individually addressed but if you compounded all the minor deviations you began to see how this component change and its properties affected the sound of the amplifier. You also could see what measurements mattered in possibly revealing the sound of an amplifier, Needless to say a valuable experience.
**I never saw a list from Peter what "properly designed" amplifiers measured like, if you want to sniff out a know nothing, let them begin to talk about THD. Amplifier specifications are useless and Stereophile only gives you half of the important measurements and if you watch carefully you will see some amplifiers get a "break" as all measurment conditions are not equal. I would love to see after 1 year experience x 30 what Mechatheist's system consists of....I would like to be surprised.
@@JurMalafi Got no idea what might elicit surprise, but here you are, Denon X6200W AVR, Cinepro 3K6^3 amp, JTR Noesis 212RT fronts, just acquired Crown DCi 8-600ND amp I'm playing with--the DSP and networked audio capabilities have amazing potential, plus a Rigol DS-1054Z.
If you're familiar with Aczel, then you should be familiar with _The Audio Critic_ and would know the answer to your question about measurements. Can you point to any misinformation Aczel has promulgated? As I've said, and Gene has repeatedly said, they know how to measure amps and can reliably determine transparency. Hell, this video demonstrates this! They're now able, with Floyd Toole and others work, to determine pretty accurately how well _speakers_ will sound FFS! [that doesn't apply to the bass where the listening environment often dominates]
"Audiophile resistor"? You're claiming resistors have a sound? That's entering cable-woo territory. Is it supposed to be a surprise that different values of resistance could affect sound? As to your transformer example, there's not enough info for it to mean anything.
For all of those who so adamantly claim amps sound different, why not simply demonstrate it? Double blind testing amps is about as easy as it gets. If you're one of those folks who don't accept the need for such tests, you aren't worth listening to, it's simply a _fact_ that humans are utterly incapable of unbiased choices, something that's been known for over 50 years. Just think about the implications that double blind testing is required for such things as testing pain meds. It's required for most anything where there is a subjective evaluation involved--if the person giving the test, no matter how honest and no matter how hard they try to not bias a test, if they know what is being tested, they will nevertheless influence the subjects enough to render the test invalid.
"Amplifier specifications are useless" and "only give half of the important measurements" are kinda contradictory statements. Do you mean amp specs as usually seen in ads or data sheets? "100 W with 8ohm load from 20Hz-20KHz, with THD + noise < 0.01%", is that a useless spec?
@@mechtheist I told you the transformer comparison was single blind, how could I have a bias? They were all visually identical, they were hand made by the same man. There wasn't one I was supposed to like, this is what we were determining, which one sounded the best. There were probably 5 suitable transformers that could have went into production, but I picked the same one 3 times out of 13 x 3 comparisons. That is seriously significant. Too bad you don't recognize that. And your assessment that the tests have to be double blind is just crap, its academic BS and we're not trying satisfy academics who will never know anything. We were trying to put an amplifier in production. The double blind is important but we are not trying to create an academic document for review. So to be clear Double blind is not always required for trivial audio things,
I owned 2 QSC ABX Comparaters to run tests and had friends help me as the test listeners (hundreds of trials). You read about a guys opinion, as I hinted in my original post, what do transparent specifications/ measurements look like? I see how Gene measures amplifiers but he skips important items. Let me show you how you don't think deeply as you make my case for me. You belittle me for saying two resistors will obviously sound different...well which one did I use in the production model amplifier? They both sound good but different ("obviously" as you would argue) doesn't that just blow a hole in the all amps sound the same argument? As the designer I had to choose between 2 resistor values in the circuit, or in my first example pick 1 of 13 transformers that sounded the best. If the amplifier sounded the same with all 13 transformers the chances of me picking the same one 3 times is pretty astronomical. We did the third trial specifically because the amplifier designer couldn't believe I picked the same transformer twice.
You don't need anymore information about it. Precautions were taken because the success of the amplifier relied on an accurate test.
As I said spec sheets are useless, Anyone who looks at the THD
@@JurMalafi Not worth listening to. Just your denigration of academics as folks who never know anything proves you're a ignorant fool.
Use the ice power 50asx(se) amp its 50x2 at 4ohm and 0.003 thd and its under $99 on ebay. Pair that with the khadas tone board dac that has 0.000337% thd that's under $99 and you will be in clean sound haven. All the highs will come through flawlessly. The amp they sent you had 1% thd if I'm not mistaken. So that means that 1% of the pure sound was lost inside of the amp which is very noticeable.
Oahu Pc at 150W , 4 Ohm. It would be very small amount at lesser power output.
@@RennieAsh I'm really in to super clean sound and i found that the cleanest sound Is in the lower watt range. So when i see 150 watts at 1% that's not for me.
Hi Gene, definitely would like to see more videos on this topic comparing amplifiers with similar rated output and price range.
i compare amazon reviews on similar priced receivers. is that a fair method of finding a quality receiver?
Hi Gene. In my opinion the test of these great speakers was made with a class D amplifier that is not a hi grade reference form you can trust that you are sending to the speakers high quality signal in order to evaluate only the speakers. That means that there is low performance amplifiers, decent performance ones and great performance (the ones that cost a lot of money).
When we say : the amps sounds the same when not clipping, we are talking about class AB amps with heavy negative feedback and high open loop gain. actually the topic is about comparison of a 500$ and 10000$ solid state amplifier that actually have no audible difference when you listen to with -20 db or -10db volume. at high volumes the speakers(and also our ears!) will produce so much THD that the amps THD(under 1%) wouldn't shine. Class D amping obviously is a different story and this is why hifi amps are not usually class D.
Everytime I watch one of Gene's videos my head explodes.... 😂! In all seriousness, I have learned so much from this channel and I greatly appreciate it! 🍻
All of this is very confusing. I just picked up Unifi B5'S with a $299 Pioneer AVR. I guess settings the receiver to 4 ohms limiting power, thus a lower volume. I did notice the receiver get hotter when set to 6 ohms. Maybe it's my hearing, but I don't hear any clipping or distortion, with either setting. Thinking of getting a fan, if that makes a difference
As someone said often, "if you can really hear a difference that don't show up in measurements, then you're measuring the wrong things".
I always put a great emphasis on "really can hear a difference" in order to try to remove any subjective bias induced differences first, and then going after the measurements of why it sounds different.
IMHO, the issue that uncovered the performance of this Dayton audio amplifier was the most important one, which was the real and clear effect that it had on the output of a particular speaker.
While I understand that measuring amplifiers with fixed loads may be more consistent as a whole, I believe that measuring the output of loudspeakers that are difficult to drive probably gives a much more real-world representation of any amplifier changes to the signal.
There are much more examples of loudspeakers with complex loads (be it on low, mid or high-end of the market) than examples that behave like a fixed load, and arguments have been made for decades about the interaction between different loudspeakers and different amplifiers (the famous matching).
It would be impossible to test all those different mixes of amplifiers and loudspeakers, but I would tend to think that some loudspeakers are particular hard loads on amplifiers (many going into the 3 Ohm range in some frequencies or/and with difficult phase shifts.
Measuring the output of that "hard" loudspeaker driven against a well behaved reference amp could give a better representation on how a particular amplifier is changing what we hear.
If that output measures the same and the typical bench tests don't find anything unusual and there are no audible differences, great!
If there are audible differences, I would go back to the initial concept, by doing blind tests before trying to understand what measurements are failing to tell us.
This is only a thought of mine...
On PATERON, I finally found a way to MAKE A CUSTOM CONTRIBUTION to Audioholics. I just kept clicking on Pateron website and I have no memory of all the rabbit holes I had to jump down to finally accomplish a monthly contribution an become a Pateron of Audioholics I can sustain over the coming years. But, please make it easier to go on Pateron to contribute to Audioholics at whatever level people can sustain! Best Regards, OH.
Hi,
Are AVR's good enough to listen to music (stereo).? The reason i am asking this question is i see a huge difference in the quality of the sound ( Music) coming from an AVR and a normal stereo music system. I was expecting much better quality from my Onkyo AVR but it was just ok. Especially the Highs and Mids , the voice clarity is really awesome in the Panasonic stereo music system.( Its rich and full).I feel the same when i hear music in my car which is powered with Pioneer music system.Is the circuit design different or the amplifiers in an AVR are designed primarily for loudness.?.
This question is really bothering me a lot as i though an AVR would suffice the requirement_for both Music and Movie.I am having an Onkyo TX-NR 696 BI-amped to Taga Harmony home theater speakers v606. Do i need to go for a high end AVR for the quality of sound that i am expecting?. Please advice.
Thanks in advance.
Hey gene. I was just mentioning this topic the other day on one of the home theater groups on fb. I have a marantz prepro powering a emotiva basx a-300 for left and right mains, and a marantz mm-7055 for my center. LCR are all matching Martin logan xt60’s. And what I noticed was I got more bass output from my marantz compared to the emotiva. I went ahead and hooked up the marantz to all three mains thinking the emotiva was just overloaded driving two towers... well the marantz powered all three with equal output. I know y’all have measurements for this amplifier, maybe you can highlight some reasoning for what I’m seeing. Needless to say I’m now looking for a new power amplifier for my floor level speakers.
King Gene! Can you please review the Audio Control Pantages G4? Or can you just tell me that you love it and it will drive my Dynaudio 60i contour system perfectly.... =)
Ive read that parasounds John Curl designed class AB amps stay in class A for first 10 watts and Parasound claims they sound better at lower volumes than other amplifiers.
That's very interesting. Thanks
What amp is better. Looking to buy the Yamaha AVENTAGE RX-A1080 or Pioneer Elite VSX-LX303 and thank you
Are Emotiva amplifiers better than Sunfire amplifiers?
What I would like to know about amps is what are specs to look for when sourcing an amp for use on the pre-amp outputs of a HT receiver to power front height, back or ceiling speakers. I have not found any data anywhere. Not even Denon say what to use.
its a math problem, size the amp to the speaker load giving yourself plenty of headroom. I'll probably get shit for this but, I size my amp according to the speakers PEAK wattage. That way all the power my speaker could ever demand is available
Useful info for sure, and a good reminder that amps must be able to drive a speaker at its nominal impedance. I’m not sure this proves that all amps don’t sound the same, though. It simply demonstrates that using an amp which can’t deal with a 4 ohm load with a 4 ohm speaker will provide poor results. Nothing surprising there.
Hi gene,how is the marantz sr7007 stand up to today,without talking about atmos
One small example: 250 ohm Beyerdynamic dt-1990. Amp: Schitt audio asgard. Plenty of power to drive just about any headphones. Recording : Diana Krall/My Love is
Schiit audio asgard: during her song she says "So firm it can calm the tide" that near mic-saturation has a hard edge to it. Maybe this is accurate, but it was dry and unpleasent.
Same thing, Bellari HA540/Mullard 12ax7: that crescendo (no it's not clipping the tube, I have lots of gain left and I was not overdriving) presents all the detail without that jagged sound. The vocals sounded more natural. There is no way both amps sound the same, and again, neither was stressed.
Topology? Op amp quality? Not sure why...but the difference was obvious.
I like both vacuum tube and solid state amps. I do not call one better than the other. In this case, the Bellari just sounded better, and different.
Please please do a detailed descrition on how to properly set up Audessey. Explain useing the filters etc. thank you
Great video Gene, thanks for sharing that experience.
hi I would like your input on the ATI 1827 7 channel amp vrs the 7 channel emotiva and monoprice7x
When I switched from my low end Yamaha htr6140 receiver to my Anthem mrx700 receiver and also compared to my Nad c316bee int amp it was like a veil was lifted from my Studio 60s. I also noticed the imaging was so much better-3D sounding compared to a 2d sound. Can you measure imaging? It was so much better.
The Yamaha uses STK433 Audio Power IC's for all channels. Economical but not exactly state of the art.
The NAD (and likely the Anthem as well) is a high-end discrete design, quite sophisticated. I'm not surprised that you can hear some difference.
Hey Gene when are you gonna review the crown xls 2502 power amp?
has he said he was going to review it or are you just wishful thinking?
Now, why would he do that?
@@hddanman7263 He actually told me he had that amp on his radar when he was recovering from covid 19
@@elgringoec Why wouldnt he?
@@lunatikk1967
No clue, hence the curiosity.
It just seems random. Do you have a reason why it's not?
Amplifiers:
The controversy over tubes vs solid state presists. When response, modulation distortion and transient intermodulation distortion are below certain levels (< 1%) there should be no audible difference.
Speaker wires:
It can be solid, stranded, copper, oxygen free copper, silver, etc.--or even "magic" wire--as long as the resistance is kept to be less than 5% of the speaker impedance. There is no listening difference as long as the wire is of adequate size. Bear in mind, a well-designed amplifier will not have a problem with any of these wires.
CD players:
In the 1980's, people spoke of experiencing "no air" and "aggression" while listening to digital recordings. Today we understand the principles which are fundamental to this phenomenon, we name it Jitter, we test it, calculate it and dress it with numbers, systemize it and describe it entirely. Jitter has always been and still is the worst enemy of the digital audio format. And today it is understood.
Fact: Digital audio data is 'just' 0's and 1's. There may be many formats (.wav, .aif, CD-audio) but the information is still digital. There is no loss during format conversion, provided the formats don't utilize compression.
Fact: Copying CD's (if they aren't damaged physically) is a lossless procedure. You can extract CD-audio with your computer and generate a file on your hard disk. Compare this file with the file created when you extract the same audio using a $30,000 player, the resulting two files are identical.
The question which naturally arises out of this paradox is: why does the $30,000 player sound better?
Before we answer that question, let us first understand that at the Digital Out of a $100 CD-player we have the same 1's and 0's as we do in the $30,000 player. The only difference is in the Jitter content. Jitter only means that the data (the 1's and the 0's) is not perfectly time-aligned, but is transmitted either slightly earlier or later than it should be in the ideal case. However, this time flaw is not as great as to cause a digital error (data fallout).
Now if you know that, then you must ask: so why does one CD-transport cost much more than another? Ah, Jitter. The cheap ones shake and the expensive ones don't.
Well, that's true. The entire audio business of CD transports and DACs is built on the totally backward setup of the CD player containing the Master Clock and the DAC being the Slave. This results in the entire palette of innovations to lessen Jitter, starting from air drives to expensive digital cable technologies with complex math to reduce line-induced Jitter, to very carefully filtered power supplies, to all sorts of very necessary things when you want to achieve the least possible Jitter. So we have the worst possible digital scenario bringing in the most possible amount of money, because it is extremely difficult to annihilate Jitter when the CD player is the Master Clock. If you're looking for quality, this is stupid, to say the least!
The whole setup should be different. As is the standard case in any pro-audio studio, it is always the playing device, the DAC, which is the Master Clock. The clock is located right next to the converter chips. That way, no line induced Jitter can appear. This clock signal is then taken from the DAC device and is used as the clock input of the signal source device, say the computer, the DAT player, or the CD player. Yes, in that setup, the CD player is receiving a more jittered clock than the DAC is, but that doesn't matter, because the DAC is doing the audio playing. When the Jittered audio signal arrives at the DAC, it is quantized into place temporally and is then played, in perfect synch with the clock oscillator, which is right next to it.
But oh! In that case, you can use a $100 CD-player with a very poor power supply, a digital cable made from your average household extension cord, and still get a better sound than you'd be getting if you spent $30,000 on the best transport and digital cable! Yes, ladies and gentlemen, this is the naked, uncensored, plain truth about CD players and DACs. Their Master/Slave relationship is BACKWARDS and their prices therefore HIGH.
If you don't believe this, then all you need to do is record digitally your favorite tune from a $100 CD player into your computer (provided you have a soundcard and software that doesn't add yet more lies into the equation, which is often the case, so beware!) Then borrow the most expensive CD transport you can get your hands on and repeat the experiment. The resulting sound files aren't just similar, they are identical!
But the $30,000 player sounds better! How do you get them to sound the same? You only need to slave the transports to a DAC in Digital Master Mode. That's it. Identical sound, guaranteed. The least possible Jitter. The least loss.
I would like to ask where abouts of your business psrtner who was handling marketing?
Question bought the Integra amp floor model DRX 3.2 , there are two subs out but not independent in the menu. What's your recommend have 2 Klipsch subs. How can I get the best sound from these subs. Daisy chain?
From personal experience, my 1998 kenwood 2 channel amplifier sounds better than my yamaha advantage receiver (using both in 2 chnl stereo).
I have an off-topic question, i have jbl headphones, is it normal to hear a "hiss" noise when noise cancellation is activated? I find they sound better when it's turned off?
@Jingle Nuts I can believe the Kenwood sounds better; being a dedicated 2 channel design it will be much simpler inside, giving a more direct path from source to speakers (especially if there are no tone controls, or they're switched out of the circuit). In general, an average 2 channel amp will sound better than an average receiver when playing music in stereo.
is the input and output impedance the same throughout all frequencies in amps?
I have seen measurements of recent class D amps. Lots of noise and spurious FR issues above 15khz. It's almost like there is a "dither" to smooth out the treble. My class D does NOT sound like my A/B.
Gene! With your knowledge and wisdom, can you find or know of a solution on how to connect a guitar to a home theater receiver to use home theater speakers? Ive tried searching and all I read is "don't do it" "you'll blow your speakers", but how in the world can we listen to concerts and music and shredding videos without blowing something up? Surely if this is possible then I would imagine that that a real guitar is possible with the right setup.
Which brand sounds better
Is it really fair to throw Jame's amp into the mix here. It sounds like he was using a special application amp out of size convenience. The emotiva obviously has a better/proper design with less of the budget constraints. The fact that you have found other DIGITAL amps misbehaving is concerning. I used to own one of the early Pioneer ice amp receivers. I sold it because of your discovery back then. As a former Audio Critics subscriber, I appreciate your testing. I think your the only one doing this type measuring and research to this level.
I just purchased my first amp ever a few months ago (Onkyo A 9150 driving Klipsch RP600'S,s ) does this mean I have to buy another amp?
Not if you're happy with the sound.
Phase response is an important measurement, though often omitted by manufacturers.
This is why I do not buy amplifier without review with measuremetns or without measuring myself. I always afraid that impedance will affect frequency response. If amplifier keeps reasonable distortion within range 20Hz-20Khz and does not change the frequency response for less than 4 ohms (my speakers have minimum at like 200Hz which is 3.5Ohm) - it is good for me ;) [well, dumping factor I ignore because i prefer having subs anyway]
The only time I have heard the difference between amps was when I moved from Cambridge Audio (Azur 651A) to Yamaha (803d)... Cambridge's transformer was making a lot of noise ;)
Your example makes me think. Why people "feel" that class D amplifiers sound harsh? With 7kHz at -5db they should feel quite opposite. And moreover better amps do not have that issue. E.g. Lyngdorf TDAI-2710. At 8ohm has large peak around 40kHz but I would say we shouldn't care...
It’s interesting Audioscience reviewed the Outlaw 2200 amps I own and they do roll off aggressively at 10Khz. This wasn’t the case with he Outlaw 5000. Wondering how audible this is with speakers and room that are already bright. They are now selling a new 2220. It was a bit of a disappointment to see that but I still like what those amps do for my speakers.
I'm into it man, I'm giving serious thought to throwing down on some new ice from legacy. I got that Pioneer Sc-25, I got them Infinity Beta 50's, I got Acoustic Research Master series cables. I got a whole mix of old ice, low impedance tweeters, and high inductance cables. That's not all I got, I have more traditional speaker wire, I have full surround sets of KEF Mirage from mid 2000's but amplifiers are the next horizon, I've got some coin and I'd like to see the class D fantasy finally come true, but if I leap on Legacy right now, am I suffering some serious early adopter premiums? I know the wholistic build of the iV series is quality, but is class D going to be a renaissance that makes every $200-$500 receiver as good as one that's currently around $8,000? and will that happen like next year? Those Legacy iV amps look so Dope! I'd love to see how the latest ICE compares to Hypex et al
Can you test some of the OSD amps they have an 11 channel amp and 5 channel black a5500 along with their subs the tevoce series and their home theater speakers the series s81 s82 s84 and s85
Can anyone recommend a great class D amplifier in the $1000 looking for a three channel around 200 watts all channel driven would appreciate your input thanks
There are only shtty class D's.
Gene: can you test using a Crown class D amp. They are very cheap (300 usd) and they say they can drive anything.
Yea I don't believe that claim but it's something I will try to test after I get the AH Smarthome finished.
Just like any other topology there are good Class D amps and bad ones. If you are curious about them then I would recommend the Crown 2502.
And they give you lots of hiss for free!
@@mesonto Only if you don't know what you're doing. Turn the gain down.
@@666PANDEMONIUM no, not my experience, returned them a while back... Cheap amp, but not a good one. Was buying them exclusively for a video room, for the cheap power. Gain adjustment was the first thing done to them. Maybe I and others get lots of lemons, maybe a quality control issue with Crown.
Regardless will be staying away from them.
Can you review the Yamaha Aventage Rx A 880?
Not a full bandwidth measurement, and 1% distortion on the Emotiva? I'd look elsewhere if driving a 4 ohm load. Just my .01.
That's right! I'm saving a penny for later! Somebody might wanna talk about cables today, and I'm gonna need it! 🤣
😂👍
V
Very good point!
I have a Luxman and a Rotel (both dual transformer) and although the Rotel is very clean sounding it is very thin and unnatural when compared to the Lux. The Luxman is fuller and more fluid. Amplifiers do sound different. There is no question about that.
Gene can you ask Hugo to come back for one video? It would be a great reunion!
Did pre amps make a difference in sound also 🤔
They sound different but given identical specs to each other using slightly different components i bet there is no audible difference. If its not measurable then any difference is just down to bias even if you think that wont effect you it still will. I read about trained harman listeners that are still biased to a certain boost in low end on revel speakers and thats because most of us prefer a slight increase in mid bass level even though its technically not accurate.
So realistically, how common are amplifiers that don’t do a good job at driving 4ohm loads? Is it something you should keep in mind everytime you’re looking at amps?
Anything analog will vary. Amplifiers send analog signals down to the speakers, so I for one have never thought amplifiers sounded the same. DAC's are a bit harder sell to make me believe they sound different, but possibly - they do convert digital to analog, and how well they do that will differ I suppose. I don't think the difference is large, or necessarily even noticeable with human ears. Digital stuff, well, that's digital. As long as the data doesn't get damaged (severely) in transit, it will be the same.
Back in the 90s I could easily hear the difference between DAC's in DVD players via the analog outputs. Today, DACs have gotten much better and my hearing isn't as good as it was when I was in my 20s :(
Bring back hugo he was great glad to see your better
Hugo mysteriously vanished :(
Gene finds a needle in a haystack and declares "The myth of needles in haystacks being hard to find is proven false!"
Gene, I know there are a lot of requests for reviews on the "new" more powerful Crown Amps. But would You please consider a "budget amp" (a the $300 price point) - the Behringer A800 ? Thanks. ;-)
I use a Crown XLi2500, AB amp, no bells and whistles just 2 gain knobs, a couple of clip indicators and 500wpc of good clean power at 8ohms. Under $500 and I love it.
true ... just check headphone amps where they have different gain settings for different headphones. same thing for speakers.
Hi Gene great show👍🏽
But lets say you have a $1000 avr driving something fairly hard to drive like ls50’s. Will a $400-500 amp make an audible difference?
Broken amplifier do sound different. There are even examples of totally broken amp IC's on low impedance loads such as TDA73xx series. There are also OP amp examples with very poor EMI rejection rate, like LME49720 and variants of it that are not shielded. EMI rejection rate usually put by vendor's as electric power rejection rate @20 KHz also can play significant role. More so in low end in hear able frequency range, & not all traditional shielding materials play particularly good role in this space. Still the best are steel & graphite... Arguably silver but that's more of a snake oil. Also AB class amp's can deliver higher max power & keep it for longer which also can impact how we hear it.
how has the recovery been ? feeling 100% ?
more like 90-95% but mostly good.
The common belief that all amplifiers sound the same if being used within their performance ability is overall true but realistically too generalized, as you have shown in this example. This belief only holds true if we assume these amplifiers are all maintaining a linear response regardless of impedance swings and dynamic power demands. It would be interesting to see some "real time" response measurements with different speakers while playing real material. Is it possible to do some of these measurements like that, Gene? Has this been done before? Great video!
What measurements do you use to determine amplifiers are going to sound the same? Assuming they are working properly for example, Classe Omega, McIntosh MC462, JBL Synthesis 2200, Arcam P240..... Do they all sound the same? What information can I use without bringing them all home to determine they are the same? I think 2 of them have a great chance of sounding the same but how to be sure? I can almost be certain 2 of them almost certainly do not sound the same as the other 2. But how do I know? :)
Great that you caught it, but you should have never used a Dayton audio amp for reviewing product. Something like the benchmark amp at minimum should be used.
Gene, I know you have all sorts of measurement gear that is high end, your (and your teams) test rig should be of equal quality. Otherwise you are doing a disservice to the speaker manufacturers by reviewing any of their products.
ya drive me up the wall Gene - why do you use click bait all the time? Let me guess, your "views" are what's really important to you - - this vid is excellent in content, explaining how amplifiers interface with varies loads, speaker impedances and such - - a better title would be "why do amps sound different". thanks anyway.
Well, mainly most of the components in electronics are built with-in tolerance of 10%
I would say, no two amplifiers EVER sound the same ;)
My friend has been an audio engineer on large companies for a long time, making for example Bluetooth-audio equipment.
Once they got a new guy to their ranks and he was developing an audio project, he had to say him to stop tweaking the speakers filters, because the guy was changing resistor values etc. in something like the range of 1%... And the tolerance of the resistors was 10% ;)
Not an exact science, this :)
Yeah, I dunno about that. You'd have to go back many decades before 10% was "standard" for resistors. My first designs in the seventies was a time when 5%ers were most common. By the 80s, 1% mil type (rn55d, etc) were readily available. Then chip resistors came along in the nineties and 1% was the most common tolerance.
Anyway, if I needed to find a specific resistance value anecdotally, I'd use either a precision resistance box or a variable resistor and measure it.
Really, a cheapo Dayton chip amp for testing?!??
Great video teammate! Sadly, scientific proof is meaningless to someone ignorant, stupid or deaf enough to think that all amps sound the same.
Maybe not the best examples. Cheap Dayton class D vs a class AB? How about a higher end class D? Or a $500 class AB vs a $2000 one? The example used too narrow in scope to call it "proof". Can we see more tests with several different amp examples. Maybe running a mix of low impedance vs easy to run, high sensitivity speakers? Interesting topic for sure! Thanks.
great video and its kinda sad that its needed.
So, is this too early to assume that some very good and affordable class D amps say: way above the average of all amps available could be purchased today? Maybe they would be able to compete with the top AB, or even top-class A amps tomorrow? After all: we kind of expect class D to be affordable, but lots of people don't expect them to be among the best on the market and remain to be as affordable at the same time.
you gave a example of amplifier with high frequency roll off. how about a amplifier with extended high frequency extension or rise.
Yep,if an amp,does that, which it shouldn't.
just wanted to know if you have seen any.
@@Audioholics .just curious.
The amp was rolling off because it couldn't drive the impedance of the speakers (not a 'quality' amp). Always choose an amp that is capable of driving the speakers lowest impedance for favorable results. If you have a pair of electrostat speakers that dip down to 1.8ohms, they will need an amp rated down to at least 2ohms, otherwise the amp will not be able to drive them - and they will sound 'thin' lacking fullness - most notably in bass, as the voltage dips. It's like running an ethanol blend in your car... not enough energy to achieve 's rated HP.
Amplifiers don't sound the same, well yes but the examples here are a bit useless, i.e. two class D amps of which one is flawed. I am interested to hear how two class AB amps can sound different, preferably even if they measure the same but have different architecture: Transistor, FET, Pentode, Triode; Output capacitor yes/no, output Transformer; etc. etc.
A detailed "Audioholics review" of the Yamaha RX-A1080 please...?
For a bunch of reasons, this is why I won't buy any more 6 or 4 ohm speakers. Why? Because I have found that using
Why do you say it must be the amp? Couldn't it be the cables? (minor sarcasm....)
Cost,looks,hookups,clean watts at higher volume and no tone control.
So someone got some super cheap amp off of Parts Express and used it for reference testing? That amp is $80. TWTF.