Where Wentworth had found no equal to her...I would laugh, because that would be such confidence from a woman who was scared to meet him, if indeed it came from her perspective! But perhaps she does think this about herself, since she does believe she is as proud as her family, though maybe not for the same things.
Well I agree I think it unlikely be Anne's viewpoint. I myself interpret the whole paragraph as being from Wentworth's perspective: "He had been most warmly attached to her, and had never seen a woman since whom he thought her equal; but, except from some natural sensation of curiosity, he had no desire of meeting her again. Her power with him was gone for ever." It's ironic of course that he's wrong! Her power with him is _not_ gone for ever... If indeed it was ever gone at all.
Ah, yes, the irony is beautiful in all Austen's works. I haven't looked through all of your close readings, but if you have any on the irony found abundantly in Lady Susan, I would love to watch it!
Ha! - it's funny you should mention Lady Susan. I am actually at the moment writing a course about Lady Susan and some of Austen's other lesser-known works! Lady Susan is fab. And really quite provocative for a girl of eighteen or so.
If you are looking for more on Austen's irony (and frankly who isn't?!) then you might enjoy this video about Austen's use of meta-irony in _Emma_ ua-cam.com/video/QlXctWOdE5U/v-deo.html
I honestly never thought there was a shift in perspective-I assumed this was Anne presuming to know what Wentworth thought. The musings condemn Anne (she was weak and timid), absolve Frederick (he simply spoke honestly; he never intended that his words should be repeated to Anne; his frank, open temperament dictated that he should view the matter in this way), and thus both underline Anne’s obliviousness to her own intelligence and fundamental goodness AND emphasize that she still loves Wentworth in that she cannot, even in her imagination, think too ill of him. And the final statement, that her power with him was gone “forever,” is the sort of Gothic overstatement Austen spurned. Anne is overdramatizing her own feelings of guilt and loss, trying to shake herself out of what she thinks is an unrequited love. And she is, as we discover in the novel’s conclusion, quite blind to the truth! In fact, Anne’s inability to see herself as desirable-for any reason-also serves to prevent her from recognizing Mr. Elliott’s nefarious intentions toward her. Her tendency to shortchange herself allows her to be taken advantage of (yielding to “persuasion” not to marry Wentworth eight years previously, submitting to disrespect and ill-usage by her father and sisters). A significant part of Anne’s journey in the novel is her learning to recognize and trust her own strengths and thus apprehend and resist the (unkind, insidsidious) machinations of others in her life.
I also thought that when reading the passage first - for me, knowing how gentle and warmhearted Anne is, that she was trying to defend Wentworth in her own mind - because, as you said, she cannot think too ill of him. But I also read the novel in German, so translation could also be at fault. Its intresting how differently people perceive these words though!
Same. I always thought it was Anne self-flagelating, scorning herself and her actions because she regrets them fully. And always has. Even the good estimation of Wentworth seems to me obviously Anne. Would Wentworth so glowingly judge his own character? I would think not.
I agree also. Especially as he later says that he never stopped loving her. All of this is awfully harsh against her for someone who still loves her, so I think it's Anne imaging what he must think of her
This double episode is probably my favorite of all these videos. Not only is it about what I often think of as my favorite Austen novel (my two runners-up can sometimes overtake it depending on mood and recency), but it involves the type of analysis that appeals to me on a personal level, both due to the same inclination that made me choose to study linguistics, and because it raises questions that I haven't thought about before, which is difficult to do after rereading these books repeatedly over the span of decades. Thank you, Dr. Cox, for taking the time, and for making these available.
I think the last paragraph in which it says he had never seen her equal since must be Wentworth's thoughts - Anne couldn't have known or supposed that. So, the first paragraph is Anne's thoughts on what she has heard, the second can be both Anne putting a probable background to those thoughts and also Wentworth's actual thoughts, the third is more Wentworth's thinking and the last line could equally apply to both. Which is a great way of tying those two internal monologues together.
Beautifully put Lesley - Austen so cleverly ties these two characters (who rarely actually speak to each other in the novel) together through their combined internal monologues about each other. Genius!
Thank you for this fascinating reflection. I had always loved this passage in Persuasion without ever analyzing why. I had always read this thinking we stayed in Anne’s mind, but clearly see the fluidity you point out. One side note- since it is Mary who reports Wentworth’s words, I had always wondered how much faith we, the reader, should place in the accuracy of her report. Anne is primed to accept the words as reported, and I think Wentworth is angry enough to have ‘used such words, or something like them’. But that ‘something like them’ is very telling and should have us prick up our ears. What if Mary strengthened his words? Not out of malice, but only to make the gossip more sensational? What if his ‘blunder’ at the end of the novel is actually not a pleasant fiction, but closer to the way he felt all along? It has been Anne all along who has been hardest upon herself? There is such tantalizing fluidity between what we think, what we feel, what we say, what others say we said, and what we hear despite the actual words spoken... that’s the magic in free and direct discourse, as you said at the end! Thanks again. Great videos, one and all.
Oh I don’t think we should place much faith in the exact accuracy of the words of Mary’s report. Mary is not one to listen intently to other people at the best of times! And furthermore Austen seems to make this precise point in having Anne immediately reinterpret the words herself. Mary says: “You were so altered he should not have known you again” Anne reinterprets to: “Altered beyond his knowledge” These are similar, but not the same. The narrative voice’s phrase “such words, or something like them” applies to Anne’s thinking too. And yes Anne is incredibly hard on herself - and this is a good example. She reinterprets the words much more harshly than they were reported to her. You make a really perceptive point. That may well be the case. It’s up to each reader to interpret for him or herself. Tantalizing fluidity is a great way to put it!
Another excellent explanation. When I read about their first meeting I had the impression that he decided to meet her to prove to himself his own strength and indifference, and I got this grim satisfaction that he used to (didn't he?) flirting with two girls right in front of Anne's sorrowful eyes only to get his fingertips burned when everybody started expecting him to propose to Louisa. Although of course we could see some pieces of HIS internal dialogue only after Anne receives his letter. And of course, there's the whole story with Anne's cousin that must have been very sobering. So all in all, I felt that Austen allowed the hero to return to his heroine only after teaching him a lesson, too, to make them even and square. :)
Oh yes definitely - I think it's a crucial part of the novel that _he_ is taught a lesson. We might compare this to, for example, Northanger Abbey where it is very much assumed that it is the _heroine_ who must be taught a lesson in a novel (in that case, Catherine Morland). [Although I would also argue that Austen plays with this notion in Henry's 'lesson' (at the end of ch.24) - I think it's debateable how straightforwardly we are supposed to interpret it.]
I don't have anything valuable to add, but will comment anyway because it helps with the algorithm, and I hope this channel will reach more people because it's so well though out, the comment section itself is a blessing when it comes to food for thought, so yes, I appreciate it very much
Thank you very much indeed for your kind words! Yes, it does definitely help in the UA-cam algorithm, and I also really like hearing people's thoughts and opinions, so I do appreciate all your comments.
I just l❤ve this channel!!! Watching the movie after seeing these videos is like watching it from a whole new perspective. It's that way for all the movies after the books you've covered. ❤
Hello! I like the word you say or hint in the ending: "synchronized". In the end they can meet and love again, not because they are "once more in the same room", but because they live in ( or haunt) the same time. Infact they both count time from the same date, the year six: eight years, eight years and a half... They are really " in unison" ( maybe unknowingly) so their thoughts can overlap.
The first time I read this I thought even to the end it was Anne's own perspective that her power with him was gone forever. All hope is sunk and was the final nail in the coffin of rebuking herself.
That's one of the beauties of the text! - that it can be read and interpreted in so many ways. It's really left up to the readers to consider for themselves. So clever by Austen!
Agreed, I feel the entirety of the narrative here is Anne's thoughts - a reflection of her own point of view imposed upon him, assuming what his feelings and motivations must be. We've all done it, gone around assuming what other people must think - especially what they must think of us!
Wow, I think this is my favorite of your videos. I love that it could be either perspective or both and we don't know, and we don't need to know; we can play with these alternative readings
Ah! - interesting. So you think that Frederick Wentworth's first thoughts (in the passage) still retain a sense of the hostility towards her that he must have felt eight years ago "She had used him ill, deserted and disappointed him". If we do read these as Frederick's own thoughts, then the strength of his feelings are clear - almost bitter even.
@@DrOctaviaCox Yes - I have always believed in his bitterness towards her all these years. Her power is just as strong as ever, only in the negative, keeping him from recognizing not only his own love, but also hers. Her thoughts at the dinner party, when she remembers how their minds would have been in sync, and says that they are strangers, only worse, because they can never become acquainted.
@@DrOctaviaCox Hi 😄 This reminds me of a sentence in the letter he wrote where he said, "Unjust I may have been, weak and resentful I have been, but never inconstant." Unjust (maybe), weak and resentful. He definitely sounds resentful from "She had used him ill." Perhaps even from "He had not forgiven Anne Elliot."
@@rachelport3723 It could also be bitterness from acknowledging his feelings that still remain and resenting that she still has this effect on him despite everything and despite him not wanting those feelings.
This is just a general fan-boy comment. I studied music when I was young, and over time learned to appreciate works of music in both aesthetic and analytical ways, neither diminishing the other. This effect increased with age and maturity. (I won't say maturity came to me early!) I always wished I had studied more literature, and through your videos--and those of a few other UA-camrs, although none have the depth of analysis you do, which to me is a huge part of your appeal--I am learning to appreciate literature in the same way I long ago learned to appreciate music. Audiobooks are much better than television when crocheting. I recently enjoyed a great audiobook reading of Persuasion. Today I plan to begin yet another experience of Emma via audiobook, and I am looking forward to seeing/hearing things I didn't recognize in all of my previous readings and listenings.
Speaking as a chronic overthinker myself, if you cut out the half sentence "and had never seen a woman since whom he thought her equal", all the rest of this passage could be Anne lying awake at 4 o'clock in the morning, while her brain endlessly flogs the dead horse of the precipitating remark. It would never occur to her that he would hold her up as a standard by which other women are measured: that part is Wentworth's POV. All the rest is Anne's anxious brain telling her how it's all her fault. At least, that is how I've always read this passage. But that's the genius of Austen, she leaves us room to see ourselves in her heroines.
I recently discovered your channel and am enjoying listening! I had always assumed the more common interpretation, the switch to Wentworth's thoughts with the paragraph starting with his name. I love the idea of the back and forth, of these passages showing them to be in sync... never would have thought of that. The idea that the entire passage is Anne's thinking doesn't sit well with me (though I agree it can be interpreted that way); I think because of the first sentence stating that he had used those words but not thought they would be repeated. I interpret that as beyond what Anne would assume as this point in the story, that she would be so definite about how the conversation had gone or what his thinking would have been. I can see her thinking that way later in the novel, when she has gained confidence in his presence. But it has been several years since I last reread Persusion, and I think I need to go back and reread with these possible shifts in mind!
Thank you for drawing my attention to this important passage. I am not sure it ever contains Captain Wentworth's actual feelings or assessment of their history. I think it contains Anne's thinking as she once again (as she must have done repeatedly over the last seven years) rakes herself over the coals for having hurt a man she loves and admires and lost her last (as in final) chance at a loving relationship. I think anyone who has been through a similar destruction of a relationship[ knows what she is putting herself through. To find that she is wrong in all this makes her reuniting with Wentworth a blessing of healing. I remember reading that only someone who has herself experienced the passion of red-hot kisses can possibly have written the scene in "Wuthering Heights" where Catherine and Heathcliff are reunited. I think the same holds true here. Only someone who has experienced the loss of a love (forever) can render its redemption so beautifully.
I love that last line, because it's the only time we see Wentworth's thoughts about Anne until his letter - and of course, he's dead wrong, as the contrast to the letter shows. I think it's the wrongness of that thought that makes me feel sure that the last line is all him, however ambiguous the earlier part is. In an adaptation it could be portrayed as beginning with Anne voicing the thoughts, then both together, and finally his voice alone. We get Anne's interpretations of various incidents, and she is generally right. As he gradually thaws, and especially since nobody else around Anne is at all concerned about how Anne feels, we see him become attuned to her again - all in spite of the silence between them.
I will forever believe that the whole of this passage is Anne's thoughts. Austen doesn't show us Wentworth's thoughts at any other times in the whole book, except during dialogues, hearsay (like Mary's little dropping of that bomb on Anne), or the letter from him near the end. Why would Austen suddenly give us Wentworth's thoughts out of no where and for the only time in the book? No, I think this is all Anne's own imaginings and interpretations. Even the end when she throws herself a bone and says that he "had never seen a women since whom he thought her equal" could be conjecture. He's unmarried and if she knows him like she believes then she can say with confidence that he wouldn't marry another unless that lady was Anne's equal or better.
I am finding your close readings so informative and thought provoking. I have loved and reread Austen's books so many times. But your readings shed a different light at times on texts that I know very well and show yet again what an incredible writer of human passions foibles and intellect she truly is. Thank you
I always assumed that was all inside Anne's head, simply because none of us actually do know his opinion at this point, and also that she would naturally be harder on herself than someone else would. So you've put a very new and interesting slant on it for me. Ty!
I have always read the second paragraph as Frederick's thoughts. It's very interesting to read it as a continuation as Ann's thoughts or both. Thank you for a new way to see the characters.
Persuasion is my favorite Austen. This pair of commentaries has inspired me to read it again. My opinion may change after a rereading, but I'm having trouble putting any of this in Wentworth's mind. Austen doesn't do what men talk about when women aren't around to hear. How could she put something in a male's mind? That's a place where no one else can hear. In my opinion, the speculation of the middle being in both of their minds is deliciously, symmetrical foreshadowing, but not Austen's cup of tea. When it all stays in Anne's mind, it's her self-condemnation. The part about Wentworth not meeting anyone else is yet another layer of shame. If he had met someone, he would've married that woman right away. So, Anne berates herself not only for disappointing Wentoworth eight years ago, but also for keeping him from married bliss in those eight years. I think this is the depth to which her family's treatment of her (for eight years) has sunk Anne's sense of self-worth. AND, isn't that a tricky way to name him? When he left, her worth went with him?!
Edit: actually, I like your idea of it all being Anne's thoughts, up until "He had been mostly warmly attached to her...", because I don't think Anne would think of herself as being unequaled by anyone else. It flies in the face of everything she just thought, of her fear of his low opinion. No, I think THAT is the transition to Wentworth's mind, and his real thoughts on the matter.
Thank you - that was a real revelation! I suddenly saw where your argument was leading and it seemed so obvious once pointed out. I would say that primarily we stay with Anne's thoughts, but we will discover as we read on to what extent they also reflect those of Captain Wentworth. What a brilliant teacher you are!
I agree with your comments and yet still want to point out the comment stated by Mary was technically 'hearsay' and this adds another dimension to the cleverness of Austen's plot re the theme of 'Persuasion'. From Mary's point of view, she wants to 'persuade' herself she is worthy of her marriage to the man WHO ASKED ANNE to marry him FIRST. Each time I read the passages from Mary sour grapes fly off the pages. 🤪🤭🤣. Each and every passage that she and her eldest sister is involved in dictates a need of superiority, persuading themselves they are far more important than Anne. It's almost a rewrite of Cinderella and her ugly sisters🙈😂🤣. Thanks m'dear. 🥳
I agree with your reading that the paragraph starting "Frederick Wentworth..." had used such words" could represent Anne Elliot and Captain Wentworth's unified thoughts. There is a lot of evidence throughout the book that Anne is hypersensitive to captain Wentworth's words and expressions and has (or believes she has) a deep understanding of Captain Wentworth's mind. For example, when Mrs Musgrove is talking about her dead son: 'There was a momentary expression in Captain Wentworth's face at this speech, a certain glance of his bright eye, and curl of his handsome mouth, which convinced Anne, that instead of sharing in Mrs Musgrove's kind wishes, as to her son, he had probably been at some pains to get rid of him; but it was too transient an indulgence of self-amusement to be detected by any who understood him less than herself' or when Mary says something that demonstrates her "Elliot pride": 'Mary took the opportunity of looking scornfully around her, and saying to Captain Wentworth -- "It is very unpleasant, having such connexions! But, I assure you, I have never been in the house above twice in my life." She received no other answer, than an artificial, assenting smile, followed by a contemptuous glance, as he turned away, which Anne perfectly knew the meaning of.' The preceding short paragraph ending "They were of sobering tendency; they allayed agitation; they composed, and consequently must make her happier" is unambiguously describing Anne's thoughts, and the following short paragraph starting "He had been most warmly attached to her, and had never seen a woman since whom he thought her equal" is unambiguously describing Captain Wentworth's thoughts, so if the intervening paragraph describes both their thoughts -- Captain Wentworth's thoughts and Anne Elliot's understanding of them -- then there is a satisfying symmetry to the text. There is another satisfying, longer range symmetry between Captain Wentworth's spoken response to a question by Henrietta Musgrove, as reported by Mary: "Captain Wentworth is not very gallant by you, Anne, though he was so attentive to me. Henrietta asked him what he thought of you, when they went away, and he said, 'You were so altered he should not have known you again.'" and the contradictory statement towards the end of the book where Captain Wentworth reports his brother questioning him about whether she had altered: "I was six weeks with Edward," said he, "and saw him happy. I could have no other pleasure. I deserved none. He enquired after you very particularly; asked even if you were personally altered, little suspecting that to my eye you could never alter." I do get the impression though that Jane Austen endows a deeper understanding of Captain Wentworth to Anne Elliot than Captain Wentworth's understanding of Anne Elliot.
I agree with you Andrew - Anne is very sensitive to Wentworth, and interpreting his words and expressions. The scene you bring up (with Mrs Musgrove) is fascinating and revealing - it’s right there in Anne’s own thoughts in your excellent quotation - that Wentworth’s inner thoughts are hardly to “be detected by any who understood him less than herself”. This is clearly Anne’s estimation of her own abilities to understand what he’s thinking. Why I think the passage in question (that I was looking at in the video) is interesting is because it allows for the overlap between the minds of the two characters - essentially, it can be read as both what Wentworth thinks and what Anne thinks Wentworth things, which implies that Anne does indeed know Wentworth as well as she thinks she does. We might contrast this, for example, with Lizzy Bennet in Pride and Prejudice who thinks that she understands Darcy and can interpret his expressions, when of course in many ways she’s completely wrong! Take this scene where Mr Bingley and Mr Darcy are talking at Netherfield: “[Bingley:] “I assure you, that if Darcy were not such a great tall fellow, in comparison with myself, I should not pay him half so much deference. I declare I do not know a more awful object than Darcy, on particular occasions, and in particular places; at his own house especially, and of a Sunday evening, when he has nothing to do.” Mr. Darcy smiled; but Elizabeth thought she could perceive that he was rather offended, and therefore checked her laugh…” (P&P ch.10) But there is no particular evidence that Mr Darcy is offended. He and Bingley are old friends, and Bingley teases Darcy often. The only evidence we are given of his reaction is that “Darcy smiled”. The narrative voice leaves the details of the expression, the “smile”, totally vague. Is it a warm smile, is it a forced smile, is it a contemptuous smile? We just don’t know. All we have is Lizzy’s interpretation that it is an offended smile. This is completely different to the description of Wentworth’s smile that you quote (when Mary’s being snobby), where the narrative voice describes it as an “artificial, assenting smile, followed by a contemptuous glance”. If we compare the two: • “Mr. Darcy smiled; but Elizabeth thought she could perceive that he was rather offended” • “an artificial, assenting smile, followed by a contemptuous glance, as he turned away, which Anne perfectly knew the meaning of” the narrative voice gives us much more reason to trust Anne’s interpretation of Wentworth’s smile than Lizzy’s interpretation of Darcy’s smile. And yes the text does seem to endow a deeper understanding of Captain Wentworth to Anne Elliot than Captain Wentworth's understanding of Anne Elliot. Could we put this down to the fact that the novel is told largely from Anne’s perspective?
@@DrOctaviaCox Actually he perceives when she is annoyed by her little nephew, when she is fatigued during the long walk, when she is admired by a stranger. He is perceptive, maybe unconsciously.
Yes, indeed. Good point. What I meant was that the narrative gives much more space to Anne's contemplation of Wentworth than the other way around. We aren't given access to any of Wentworth's reflections on these events in the same way that we are with Anne.
@@DrOctaviaCox yes there’s no evidence that Darcy was offended when Bingley mocked him and it’s natural as they are very good friends . But Lizzie thinks he might be offended, which only shows how often she misunderstands Darcy. She wrongly accuses him of having a propensity to hate everyone and Darcy pointedly replies that hers is to wilfully misunderstand them ( or him particularly).
It's really interesting. I think it is a mix of both but only on second readings as we gain knowlege about him during the first reading. The first time listening I thought it to be Annes thoughts and feelings alone, as we have not had knowledge of Fredericks feelings of bitterness and anger (those are explained later in the book by himself). When we have that knowledge we can easily see this paragraph from both sides. But I think a very important aspect is the "she had given him up to oblige others". That is Anne! At some point in the novel Wentworth is overhearing a conversation where there is talk about Lady Russel giving her advice. Before that Wentworth never knew why Anne refused him. Or at least I always read it like that. Now i can't search for that passage as I do not have the book (only audio) but i'm fairly certain. Because that is when he begins to understands and forgives. So ultimately I think this is all Anne but we can interpret more on second readings. Which is somehow Austens speciality, as she does that with every novel
Yes, there's always more to unpick on a second reading! And third, fourth, fifth... I'm not quite sure which episode you mean? Do you mean when Anne overhears Louisa tell Wentworth that she had refused Charlies? ""Mary is good-natured enough in many respects," said she [Louisa]; "but she does sometimes provoke me excessively, by her nonsense and pride--the Elliot pride. She has a great deal too much of the Elliot pride. We do so wish that Charles had married Anne instead. I suppose you know he wanted to marry Anne?" After a moment's pause, Captain Wentworth said-- "Do you mean that she refused him?" "Oh! yes; certainly." "When did that happen?" "I do not exactly know, for Henrietta and I were at school at the time; but I believe about a year before he married Mary. I wish she had accepted him. We should all have liked her a great deal better; and papa and mamma always think it was her great friend Lady Russell's doing, that she did not. They think Charles might not be learned and bookish enough to please Lady Russell, and that therefore, she persuaded Anne to refuse him." The sounds were retreating, and Anne distinguished no more. Her own emotions still kept her fixed. She had much to recover from, before she could move. The listener's proverbial fate was not absolutely hers; she had heard no evil of herself, but she had heard a great deal of very painful import. She saw how her own character was considered by Captain Wentworth, and there had been just that degree of feeling and curiosity about her in his manner which must give her extreme agitation." (ch.10 A crucial line here is "She saw how her own character was considered by Captain Wentworth". Anne imagines, with "extreme agitation", how Wentworth would interpret that Lady Russell persuaded Anne out of marriage (again).
i felt the paragraph is her thinking and fears because i cant imagine Wentworth ever thinking of himself as having a confident temper when it comes to relationships... but then again that could still be him trying to lie to himself to convince himself
Oddly, I had never read there to be a shift to him. I had always considered the shift to be from emotional reaction to concluding what the reported statement must mean. I never trusted the report. I assume he would lie or say something so generic that it was easily given meaning by the listener. Anne even does this almost immediately. The more I think about it, putting those thoughts into his head drastically changes my perspective of Wentworth. You are going to make me reread the whole thing!
@@DrOctaviaCox I have reread that section and it does have to at some point switch from her perspective. She couldn't have been quoting his conversation with Sophia. I do agree now with your first suggestion where it switches. I think I had a predefined opinion of Wentworth from having watched the 1995 movie when I first read it. Then resisted adjusting it when I read this. I am guessing this will please you. I have never studied Austen, just simply enjoyed it. Now you have me studying it. I watched my first video of yours yesterday. Thanks. And yes, I have to reread this now, I do think this adds a lot more depth to Wentworth than I had previously given him.
I had always thought this was Anne's thoughts although the words 'never seen a woman since he thought her equak' sounded very vain for humble Anne. His later actions showed that he never thought the things she imagined. However, it is conceivable that it could be interpreted the alternate way and that she managed to win over his harsh judgement of her over the time he later spent with her.
I never thought of either of those interpretations! I always assumed that it was Anne's opinions OF HERSELF, not the opinions she worried that he had of her. We can see an almost logic train as if she is convincing herself of certain "facts". She's been repressing her regret of her decision for a long time but, now faced with the object of said regret, she's forced to face it head on. I always saw it as a short if depressive self-beration.
I think it shifts at that second reiterating of his name. There's so much defensiveness in that paragraph, and it sounds much like he's responding to someone saying, 'Sheesh, Wentworth, what if her brainless sister repeats that to her? And why would you even say something so unkind?'
You say at the end of the video that with free indirect discourse you go into the mind of the character even if their self assessment is wrong( Wentworth thinking that her power with him was gone forever) . Could this apply to Anne too when she thinks that he had not forgiven Anne Elliot ( if we believe it’s her perspective in this paragraph). Because we are not given any evidence that he hasn’t forgiven her.He avoids her because he’s hurt and it’s awkward meeting after so many years. Maybe he doesn’t want to say much about Anne to Henrietta. And Henrietta doesn’t guess that him saying that Anne is so altered that he should not have known her, shows that he knew her in the past. When he says later on that in his eyes she could never alter, maybe he’s not talking of physical appearance but his feelings for her.
Absolutely! I think it's such an interesting passage _because_ we move between Anne's perception and Wentworth's perception, and it's not clear exactly when the change happens. And, moreover, both could be / are wrong in their perceptions of their feelings about and interpretations of the other.
Yes, Anne certainly seems to understand - or attempt to understand - his. I suppose we are more aware of it from Anne's perspective because that is what we have most access to as readers.
Wentworth has been supporting James Benwick very recently prior to joining his sister at Kellynch. This would have refreshed his own grief and resentment just as he meets Anne again.
I think it's what Wentworth thinks of her in his worst and most uncharitable moments, and she's read him correctly, in her worst and most uncharitable moments towards herself. However, when taking a more measured approach, we can see that she had good reason to refuse him when she did, and if he had calmly understood that, and simply waited patiently and proposed again only a couple of years later when he first returned from sea, she would have been in a position to accept him then. It's so cleverly done how, we are initially lead to blame Anne for being cautious and speculative, when in the end, the novel schools Wentworth that an impulsive and emotional nature can lead to undue misery as well, for instance; in the example I gave above of their being married sooner, Louisa injuring herself when she jumps from the steps and Wentworth getting himself in a pickle because his temporary imagined fancy that he would want an impulsive wife has lead him to flirt with Louisa to the point where he is almost honour bound to propose to a woman he does not love. Love these videos! 💕
I read it as Anne explaining herself Frederick's thoughts. She knows him and his values, believes she did him wrong (as the cause if her anxiety of meeting him again) and isn't in belief that he'd hold him in his heart the way she holds him. Anne isn't impartial in any way, and has a low opinion of herself. In the beginning of the book it is said she's a late bloomer in the beauty department, but she thinks she's ugly now. Also, I wouldn't consider his words accurate, especially considering they were carried by Mary, who's known to enjoy her own drama. Dramatizing his attitude to the negative in regards to his opinion of Anne would satisfy her idea that he favors one of the sisters. Frederick could mean she's altered for the better, as a beauty she wasn't seven years before, but Mary's penchance for drama and Anne's low opinion of herself twisted his words to a negative. Doesn't the fact that he remembers her vividly to make a comparison be a point of consideration to how he meant it? "Altered" isn't a negative, it depends on if the switch is for the better or worse. Anne assumes it's for the worse, but Frederick might not mean it so. His feeling is deep, but the messenger doesn't know that. Mary doesn't know even that they were engaged! As far as she's concerned, it's an aquantance making a slight, which she can delight over while laying down on a headache as no one cares for her illness. To Anne however, it's the death of all hope.
I thought that Wentworth's perspective might have started a paragraph earlier! That he said it spitefully, hoping that it would get back to her, but that he doesn't admit to himself that he's still angry at her.
Exactly Maria - Wentworth, it seems to me, doesn't realise / acknowledge even to himself how angry with Anne he remains. Wentworth imagines that "Her power with him was gone for ever" but he's misguided! His memory of her still very much guides his thinking.
I don’t know if I take too shallow a read on things. Or just am not as analytical. I assumed the debate over whose voice is being heard when discussing her appearance, Anne is thinking what she thinks he is thinking by the words that came to her. This whole book wouldn’t be what it is if not for the constant game of telephone. People hear what echoes in their own head when they hear something possibly negative. Or even good things, you see the best outcome for yourself. I think a lot of life isn’t what is said, but how what’s said is heard. I’m not sure if I’m making sense. 😆 But my grasp on this has always been that the “truth” is in the ear of the hearer. This is what makes the internet a much more dangerous place. Our prejudices color everything we perceive. I think it’s a theme in all of her books.
I have always thought that paragraph (Frederick Wentworth had used such words, or something like them…) was still in Anne’s mind, her assumptions about what Wentworth was thinking, coming from her own internalized feelings about herself and her behavior to him in the past, essentially making excuses for the slight she perceives in his words, because she feels she deserves every bad thing.
The story is certainly largely told from Anne's perspective. But we do enter into other characters's minds at certain moments too (e.g. via the Free Indirect Discourse in the very opening of the novel, we move between Sir Walter's mind - such as it is! - and the narrative voice's ironical take on Sir Walter's view of himself), so I think it's worth pondering whether this moment is all Anne or not.
I really feel like we're just looking into Anne's interpretation of the situation. That's my own personal bias, though. I'm always over-thinking, which I think is why other people's thoughts weigh so heavily on me--I give them too much credence (sometimes far too much). I suppose I always thought Anne was a kindred soul in that regard--lamentably for the two of us.
It is hard to say whether these are Wentworth's or Anne's thoughts and one reason is that they in fact do share these thoughts. This is what he actually thinks of her, it is what she understands him to think of her and it may well be what she thinks of herself. They are close in feelings, though somewhat different in personality. She believes that she is horribly altered. She believes that she had been too weak and had cast off her chance for happiness in life. She believes that she had been too apt to be persuaded. It seems that these two are Austen's most ideal hero and heroine. They are all that she valued: morality, intelligence, good manners, culture, kindness, talent, energy, gentleness and rightful respect for order. Her error is persuadability, his is lack of persistence. These are the failings that Austen most forgives, errors of gentle souls.
5'25: 'without an idea that they would be carried round to her' - this must be Anne's voice because we do not know that HE knows that the words have been 'carried round to her'. Does he know that those words have been carried round to her?? I don't think we know that. If I am right, it seems to be clear that this is still Anne's voice. Do you agree?
I think ppl with lower self esteem (like I was when I read this first) will automatically assume it's her thoughts. When you feel unlovable, unforgivable, unworthy, you tend to have that kind of narrative in your own head.
I have read Persuasion a couple of times. Now I will not pretend to have studied it as carefully as you, but I always took the novel to describe events and situations from Anne Elliott’s perception, not Fredrick Wentworth’s. Rightly or wrongly understood, Anne thought he had not forgiven her, but we do not know if that is truly the case.
I think one of the things that's so wonderful about Austen's use of the narrative voice is that it's so slippery! She leaves room for different interpretations. She leaves up up to readers to make choices for themselves.
In general that is the case where Anne is a participant or observer but there are points at which we get Wentworth's point of view and thoughts. Mainly at times where Anne cannot be the observer. For example we get his wishes for the character of his wife and his views of Bath societies view of the Eliot sisters. This passage is tricky because it could be either Anne's imagination or Wentworth's report. Probably it's both. At this point Wentworth doesn't have any reason to think Anne still thinks of him and doesn't until the conversation in the hedgerow with Louisa, when he begins to wonder if Anne still feels for him.
I've got some side-eye for Mary. She knows her husband married her on the rebound from Anne, so she's going to have a little extra incentive to make Anne feel bad. I don't think it's all obliviousness on her part. So when we get 'or words like them', I have serious doubts that Mary is quoting him verbatim.
This made me think - Anne is looking down on herself so much in this novel (i.e. how much of her beauty she lost and so on) and her family is really vain, so is it possible she isn't as bad-looking as she thinks?
As the novel progresses, her heart becomes full of love for Cptn Wentworth, and she regains her bloom. Her countenance suffered from depression, lost hope, and regrets, not old age.
That is exactly what I also have been thinking for a very long time. At the beginning of the novel, she had been spending a lot (too much) time with her father and sister(s), who are all extremely vain, don't like/value her very much and constantly belittle her. I'm sure they have been letting her know that they don't think her to be very beautiful, so she finally started to believe it herself. It is very telling, that Anne who herself doesn't value status even half as much as the rest of her family and Lady Russell, is so often thinking about her "bad looks". That is the influence of her family in my opinion. And she is very unhappy - she has been regretting the break up with Captain Wentworth ever since, she has refused Charles Musgrove some time before, she has resigned into thinking that she has lost her one and only chance for marriage and happiness - of course that also reflects on her perception of her own beauty. There is this very telling scene later in the novel, when Anne overhears two young women gossiping about herself and Mr Elliot, and one of them says that she always found Anne more beautiful than Elizabeth, but that Anne has a more delicate beauty and most men prefer Elizabeth's type. Now, you got me thinking that maybe Anne also misinterpreted Captain Wentworth's "so very altered" comment. He remembered 18 year old Anne, in love, happy, cheerful - and now he met 27 year old Anne, resigned, depressed, very unhappy = "very altered". And Anne, who probably had heard her father too often comment on her not being beautiful, thought that Wentworth also found her no longer beautiful.
I think most if this is still Anne. Attributing her fears and disappointments about herself, confirmed by on offhand comment by him. He is "unaltered" and since she knows him well, knows how and what he thinks.
Anne's thoughts are even based on an unreliable witness's account of an answer to an improper and unexpected question posed by another person. Being Anne Elliot, she didn't allow for the "telephone game" effect.
Mary is the sister of Ann, no ? So she is _eager_ to let her know that he thinks her very much altered (not for the better of course). She is unaware of the fromer romatic connections, she just knows that this man knew her sister when she was a blooming older teenager, and can't resist that jab. Plus the husband of Mary would have prefered to marry Ann back in the day - and she declined his offer of marriage after she had "lost" Frederic (dude would have been off better with her) and she may have sensed the latent affection he has for his now sister in law. And that she was second choice.
How does Jane Austen's never writing male dialogue unless there is a woman who hears it fit into the internal dialogue of Wentworth? Wouldn't that device make Anne's thinking alone? I see another segment where you talk about Anne's "self-persuasions"--that seems to suggest she is talking herself into self flagellation. Maybe? [Love these segments that now have me now looking at other writers like Trollope, Disraeli, Gaskell and Heyer. ] Who followed Austen's style next? ]
I think Anne's internal thought never stopped. I think Jane Austen is making a case for Anne's constancy in loving Wentworth. Anne is under a deep cognitive dissonance here. Her love is selfless & constant
I love Jane Austen, but I dislike Mansfield Park. There is not one single character in the entire novel that I care about in the least degree. I would have totally agreed with those that think that Fanny is insipid and so is Edmund, in my opinion. You may very well be right in your assessment that she is not, but either way, it doesn't matter, because for me she has no redeeming character traits.
Anne has suffered actual abuse, which may explain her acquiescence to what should not be tolerated. Her sisters and father are habitually cruel to her.
Well put - it is as though it is that thought which has gone round and round his head when thinking about Anne Elliot since their break-up, as he implicitly acknowledges in his letter to her later in the novel: "Unjust I may have been, weak and resentful I have been" (ch.23).
Where do you think the shift in perspective happens?
Where Wentworth had found no equal to her...I would laugh, because that would be such confidence from a woman who was scared to meet him, if indeed it came from her perspective! But perhaps she does think this about herself, since she does believe she is as proud as her family, though maybe not for the same things.
Well I agree I think it unlikely be Anne's viewpoint. I myself interpret the whole paragraph as being from Wentworth's perspective:
"He had been most warmly attached to her, and had never seen a woman since whom he thought her equal; but, except from some natural sensation of curiosity, he had no desire of meeting her again. Her power with him was gone for ever."
It's ironic of course that he's wrong! Her power with him is _not_ gone for ever... If indeed it was ever gone at all.
Ah, yes, the irony is beautiful in all Austen's works. I haven't looked through all of your close readings, but if you have any on the irony found abundantly in Lady Susan, I would love to watch it!
Ha! - it's funny you should mention Lady Susan. I am actually at the moment writing a course about Lady Susan and some of Austen's other lesser-known works! Lady Susan is fab. And really quite provocative for a girl of eighteen or so.
If you are looking for more on Austen's irony (and frankly who isn't?!) then you might enjoy this video about Austen's use of meta-irony in _Emma_
ua-cam.com/video/QlXctWOdE5U/v-deo.html
I honestly never thought there was a shift in perspective-I assumed this was Anne presuming to know what Wentworth thought. The musings condemn Anne (she was weak and timid), absolve Frederick (he simply spoke honestly; he never intended that his words should be repeated to Anne; his frank, open temperament dictated that he should view the matter in this way), and thus both underline Anne’s obliviousness to her own intelligence and fundamental goodness AND emphasize that she still loves Wentworth in that she cannot, even in her imagination, think too ill of him. And the final statement, that her power with him was gone “forever,” is the sort of Gothic overstatement Austen spurned. Anne is overdramatizing her own feelings of guilt and loss, trying to shake herself out of what she thinks is an unrequited love. And she is, as we discover in the novel’s conclusion, quite blind to the truth! In fact, Anne’s inability to see herself as desirable-for any reason-also serves to prevent her from recognizing Mr. Elliott’s nefarious intentions toward her. Her tendency to shortchange herself allows her to be taken advantage of (yielding to “persuasion” not to marry Wentworth eight years previously, submitting to disrespect and ill-usage by her father and sisters). A significant part of Anne’s journey in the novel is her learning to recognize and trust her own strengths and thus apprehend and resist the (unkind, insidsidious) machinations of others in her life.
I also thought that when reading the passage first - for me, knowing how gentle and warmhearted Anne is, that she was trying to defend Wentworth in her own mind - because, as you said, she cannot think too ill of him. But I also read the novel in German, so translation could also be at fault. Its intresting how differently people perceive these words though!
This comment is incredible! I could not have said it better myself, that is I believe one of the lessons of this novel! Thank you!
Same. I always thought it was Anne self-flagelating, scorning herself and her actions because she regrets them fully. And always has. Even the good estimation of Wentworth seems to me obviously Anne. Would Wentworth so glowingly judge his own character? I would think not.
Agree.
I agree also. Especially as he later says that he never stopped loving her. All of this is awfully harsh against her for someone who still loves her, so I think it's Anne imaging what he must think of her
This double episode is probably my favorite of all these videos. Not only is it about what I often think of as my favorite Austen novel (my two runners-up can sometimes overtake it depending on mood and recency), but it involves the type of analysis that appeals to me on a personal level, both due to the same inclination that made me choose to study linguistics, and because it raises questions that I haven't thought about before, which is difficult to do after rereading these books repeatedly over the span of decades.
Thank you, Dr. Cox, for taking the time, and for making these available.
I think the last paragraph in which it says he had never seen her equal since must be Wentworth's thoughts - Anne couldn't have known or supposed that. So, the first paragraph is Anne's thoughts on what she has heard, the second can be both Anne putting a probable background to those thoughts and also Wentworth's actual thoughts, the third is more Wentworth's thinking and the last line could equally apply to both. Which is a great way of tying those two internal monologues together.
Beautifully put Lesley - Austen so cleverly ties these two characters (who rarely actually speak to each other in the novel) together through their combined internal monologues about each other. Genius!
Thank you for this fascinating reflection. I had always loved this passage in Persuasion without ever analyzing why. I had always read this thinking we stayed in Anne’s mind, but clearly see the fluidity you point out. One side note- since it is Mary who reports Wentworth’s words, I had always wondered how much faith we, the reader, should place in the accuracy of her report. Anne is primed to accept the words as reported, and I think Wentworth is angry enough to have ‘used such words, or something like them’. But that ‘something like them’ is very telling and should have us prick up our ears. What if Mary strengthened his words? Not out of malice, but only to make the gossip more sensational? What if his ‘blunder’ at the end of the novel is actually not a pleasant fiction, but closer to the way he felt all along? It has been Anne all along who has been hardest upon herself? There is such tantalizing fluidity between what we think, what we feel, what we say, what others say we said, and what we hear despite the actual words spoken... that’s the magic in free and direct discourse, as you said at the end! Thanks again. Great videos, one and all.
Oh I don’t think we should place much faith in the exact accuracy of the words of Mary’s report. Mary is not one to listen intently to other people at the best of times! And furthermore Austen seems to make this precise point in having Anne immediately reinterpret the words herself.
Mary says: “You were so altered he should not have known you again”
Anne reinterprets to: “Altered beyond his knowledge”
These are similar, but not the same. The narrative voice’s phrase “such words, or something like them” applies to Anne’s thinking too. And yes Anne is incredibly hard on herself - and this is a good example. She reinterprets the words much more harshly than they were reported to her.
You make a really perceptive point. That may well be the case. It’s up to each reader to interpret for him or herself. Tantalizing fluidity is a great way to put it!
And thank you very much - I'm very pleased that you are enjoying my videos. Octavia
Another excellent explanation. When I read about their first meeting I had the impression that he decided to meet her to prove to himself his own strength and indifference, and I got this grim satisfaction that he used to (didn't he?) flirting with two girls right in front of Anne's sorrowful eyes only to get his fingertips burned when everybody started expecting him to propose to Louisa. Although of course we could see some pieces of HIS internal dialogue only after Anne receives his letter. And of course, there's the whole story with Anne's cousin that must have been very sobering. So all in all, I felt that Austen allowed the hero to return to his heroine only after teaching him a lesson, too, to make them even and square. :)
Oh yes definitely - I think it's a crucial part of the novel that _he_ is taught a lesson. We might compare this to, for example, Northanger Abbey where it is very much assumed that it is the _heroine_ who must be taught a lesson in a novel (in that case, Catherine Morland).
[Although I would also argue that Austen plays with this notion in Henry's 'lesson' (at the end of ch.24) - I think it's debateable how straightforwardly we are supposed to interpret it.]
I don't have anything valuable to add, but will comment anyway because it helps with the algorithm, and I hope this channel will reach more people because it's so well though out, the comment section itself is a blessing when it comes to food for thought, so yes, I appreciate it very much
Thank you very much indeed for your kind words! Yes, it does definitely help in the UA-cam algorithm, and I also really like hearing people's thoughts and opinions, so I do appreciate all your comments.
I just l❤ve this channel!!! Watching the movie after seeing these videos is like watching it from a whole new perspective. It's that way for all the movies after the books you've covered. ❤
I am LOVING all your Jane Austen takes!!!
Thank you very much! Happy to oblige.
Hello!
I like the word you say or hint in the ending: "synchronized".
In the end they can meet and love again, not because they are "once more in the same room", but because they live in ( or haunt) the same time.
Infact they both count time from the same date, the year six:
eight years, eight years and a half...
They are really " in unison" ( maybe unknowingly) so their thoughts can overlap.
Exactly! - very well put.
The first time I read this I thought even to the end it was Anne's own perspective that her power with him was gone forever. All hope is sunk and was the final nail in the coffin of rebuking herself.
That's one of the beauties of the text! - that it can be read and interpreted in so many ways. It's really left up to the readers to consider for themselves. So clever by Austen!
Agreed, I feel the entirety of the narrative here is Anne's thoughts - a reflection of her own point of view imposed upon him, assuming what his feelings and motivations must be. We've all done it, gone around assuming what other people must think - especially what they must think of us!
Wow, I think this is my favorite of your videos. I love that it could be either perspective or both and we don't know, and we don't need to know; we can play with these alternative readings
Let me know what you think. I’d love to hear from you.
She had used him ill. I believe that is where Frederick's thoughts really start.
Ah! - interesting. So you think that Frederick Wentworth's first thoughts (in the passage) still retain a sense of the hostility towards her that he must have felt eight years ago "She had used him ill, deserted and disappointed him". If we do read these as Frederick's own thoughts, then the strength of his feelings are clear - almost bitter even.
@@DrOctaviaCox Yes - I have always believed in his bitterness towards her all these years. Her power is just as strong as ever, only in the negative, keeping him from recognizing not only his own love, but also hers. Her thoughts at the dinner party, when she remembers how their minds would have been in sync, and says that they are strangers, only worse, because they can never become acquainted.
@@DrOctaviaCox Hi 😄 This reminds me of a sentence in the letter he wrote where he said, "Unjust I may have been, weak and resentful I have been, but never inconstant." Unjust (maybe), weak and resentful. He definitely sounds resentful from "She had used him ill." Perhaps even from "He had not forgiven Anne Elliot."
@@rachelport3723 It could also be bitterness from acknowledging his feelings that still remain and resenting that she still has this effect on him despite everything and despite him not wanting those feelings.
So well matched that their assessment is interchangeable. Very perceptive.
This is just a general fan-boy comment. I studied music when I was young, and over time learned to appreciate works of music in both aesthetic and analytical ways, neither diminishing the other. This effect increased with age and maturity. (I won't say maturity came to me early!)
I always wished I had studied more literature, and through your videos--and those of a few other UA-camrs, although none have the depth of analysis you do, which to me is a huge part of your appeal--I am learning to appreciate literature in the same way I long ago learned to appreciate music.
Audiobooks are much better than television when crocheting. I recently enjoyed a great audiobook reading of Persuasion. Today I plan to begin yet another experience of Emma via audiobook, and I am looking forward to seeing/hearing things I didn't recognize in all of my previous readings and listenings.
Speaking as a chronic overthinker myself, if you cut out the half sentence "and had never seen a woman since whom he thought her equal", all the rest of this passage could be Anne lying awake at 4 o'clock in the morning, while her brain endlessly flogs the dead horse of the precipitating remark. It would never occur to her that he would hold her up as a standard by which other women are measured: that part is Wentworth's POV. All the rest is Anne's anxious brain telling her how it's all her fault.
At least, that is how I've always read this passage. But that's the genius of Austen, she leaves us room to see ourselves in her heroines.
I recently discovered your channel and am enjoying listening! I had always assumed the more common interpretation, the switch to Wentworth's thoughts with the paragraph starting with his name. I love the idea of the back and forth, of these passages showing them to be in sync... never would have thought of that. The idea that the entire passage is Anne's thinking doesn't sit well with me (though I agree it can be interpreted that way); I think because of the first sentence stating that he had used those words but not thought they would be repeated. I interpret that as beyond what Anne would assume as this point in the story, that she would be so definite about how the conversation had gone or what his thinking would have been. I can see her thinking that way later in the novel, when she has gained confidence in his presence. But it has been several years since I last reread Persusion, and I think I need to go back and reread with these possible shifts in mind!
Enjoying your videos very much! I used to think I couldn’t love Jane Austen more, but i was wrong. 💜
Thank you for drawing my attention to this important passage. I am not sure it ever contains Captain Wentworth's actual feelings or assessment of their history. I think it contains Anne's thinking as she once again (as she must have done repeatedly over the last seven years) rakes herself over the coals for having hurt a man she loves and admires and lost her last (as in final) chance at a loving relationship. I think anyone who has been through a similar destruction of a relationship[ knows what she is putting herself through. To find that she is wrong in all this makes her reuniting with Wentworth a blessing of healing. I remember reading that only someone who has herself experienced the passion of red-hot kisses can possibly have written the scene in "Wuthering Heights" where Catherine and Heathcliff are reunited. I think the same holds true here. Only someone who has experienced the loss of a love (forever) can render its redemption so beautifully.
I love that last line, because it's the only time we see Wentworth's thoughts about Anne until his letter - and of course, he's dead wrong, as the contrast to the letter shows. I think it's the wrongness of that thought that makes me feel sure that the last line is all him, however ambiguous the earlier part is. In an adaptation it could be portrayed as beginning with Anne voicing the thoughts, then both together, and finally his voice alone. We get Anne's interpretations of various incidents, and she is generally right. As he gradually thaws, and especially since nobody else around Anne is at all concerned about how Anne feels, we see him become attuned to her again - all in spite of the silence between them.
I will forever believe that the whole of this passage is Anne's thoughts. Austen doesn't show us Wentworth's thoughts at any other times in the whole book, except during dialogues, hearsay (like Mary's little dropping of that bomb on Anne), or the letter from him near the end. Why would Austen suddenly give us Wentworth's thoughts out of no where and for the only time in the book? No, I think this is all Anne's own imaginings and interpretations.
Even the end when she throws herself a bone and says that he "had never seen a women since whom he thought her equal" could be conjecture. He's unmarried and if she knows him like she believes then she can say with confidence that he wouldn't marry another unless that lady was Anne's equal or better.
I am finding your close readings so informative and thought provoking. I have loved and reread Austen's books so many times. But your readings shed a different light at times on texts that I know very well and show yet again what an incredible writer of human passions foibles and intellect she truly is. Thank you
I always assumed that was all inside Anne's head, simply because none of us actually do know his opinion at this point, and also that she would naturally be harder on herself than someone else would. So you've put a very new and interesting slant on it for me. Ty!
I have always read the second paragraph as Frederick's thoughts. It's very interesting to read it as a continuation as Ann's thoughts or both. Thank you for a new way to see the characters.
Persuasion is my favorite Austen. This pair of commentaries has inspired me to read it again. My opinion may change after a rereading, but I'm having trouble putting any of this in Wentworth's mind. Austen doesn't do what men talk about when women aren't around to hear. How could she put something in a male's mind? That's a place where no one else can hear. In my opinion, the speculation of the middle being in both of their minds is deliciously, symmetrical foreshadowing, but not Austen's cup of tea. When it all stays in Anne's mind, it's her self-condemnation. The part about Wentworth not meeting anyone else is yet another layer of shame. If he had met someone, he would've married that woman right away. So, Anne berates herself not only for disappointing Wentoworth eight years ago, but also for keeping him from married bliss in those eight years. I think this is the depth to which her family's treatment of her (for eight years) has sunk Anne's sense of self-worth. AND, isn't that a tricky way to name him? When he left, her worth went with him?!
Edit: actually, I like your idea of it all being Anne's thoughts, up until "He had been mostly warmly attached to her...", because I don't think Anne would think of herself as being unequaled by anyone else. It flies in the face of everything she just thought, of her fear of his low opinion. No, I think THAT is the transition to Wentworth's mind, and his real thoughts on the matter.
Thank you - that was a real revelation! I suddenly saw where your argument was leading and it seemed so obvious once pointed out. I would say that primarily we stay with Anne's thoughts, but we will discover as we read on to what extent they also reflect those of Captain Wentworth. What a brilliant teacher you are!
Loved listening to this again.
Very interesting. I always saw it as Anne's thoughts.
I agree with your comments and yet still want to point out the comment stated by Mary was technically 'hearsay' and this adds another dimension to the cleverness of Austen's plot re the theme of 'Persuasion'. From Mary's point of view, she wants to 'persuade' herself she is worthy of her marriage to the man WHO ASKED ANNE to marry him FIRST. Each time I read the passages from Mary sour grapes fly off the pages. 🤪🤭🤣.
Each and every passage that she and her eldest sister is involved in dictates a need of superiority, persuading themselves they are far more important than Anne. It's almost a rewrite of Cinderella and her ugly sisters🙈😂🤣. Thanks m'dear. 🥳
I love your close readings, Octavia
Loved this one! I've been listening to all your austen bids during work, it makes it much much enjoyable!
I agree with your reading that the paragraph starting "Frederick Wentworth..." had used such words" could represent Anne Elliot and Captain Wentworth's unified thoughts.
There is a lot of evidence throughout the book that Anne is hypersensitive to captain Wentworth's words and expressions and has (or believes she has) a deep understanding of Captain Wentworth's mind. For example, when Mrs Musgrove is talking about her dead son:
'There was a momentary expression in Captain Wentworth's face at this speech, a certain glance of his bright eye, and curl of his handsome mouth, which convinced Anne, that instead of sharing in Mrs Musgrove's kind wishes, as to her son, he had probably been at some pains to get rid of him; but it was too transient an indulgence of self-amusement to be detected by any who understood him less than herself'
or when Mary says something that demonstrates her "Elliot pride":
'Mary took the opportunity of looking scornfully around her, and saying to Captain Wentworth --
"It is very unpleasant, having such connexions! But, I assure you, I have never been in the house above twice in my life."
She received no other answer, than an artificial, assenting smile, followed by a contemptuous glance, as he turned away, which Anne perfectly knew the meaning of.'
The preceding short paragraph ending "They were of sobering tendency; they allayed agitation; they composed, and consequently must make her happier" is unambiguously describing Anne's thoughts, and the following short paragraph starting "He had been most warmly attached to her, and had never seen a woman since whom he thought her equal" is unambiguously describing Captain Wentworth's thoughts, so if the intervening paragraph describes both their thoughts -- Captain Wentworth's thoughts and Anne Elliot's understanding of them -- then there is a satisfying symmetry to the text.
There is another satisfying, longer range symmetry between Captain Wentworth's spoken response to a question by Henrietta Musgrove, as reported by Mary:
"Captain Wentworth is not very gallant by you, Anne, though he was so attentive to me. Henrietta asked him what he thought of you, when they went away, and he said, 'You were so altered he should not have known you again.'"
and the contradictory statement towards the end of the book where Captain Wentworth reports his brother questioning him about whether she had altered:
"I was six weeks with Edward," said he, "and saw him happy. I could have no other pleasure. I deserved none. He enquired after you very particularly; asked even if you were personally altered, little suspecting that to my eye you could never alter."
I do get the impression though that Jane Austen endows a deeper understanding of Captain Wentworth to Anne Elliot than Captain Wentworth's understanding of Anne Elliot.
I agree with you Andrew - Anne is very sensitive to Wentworth, and interpreting his words and expressions. The scene you bring up (with Mrs Musgrove) is fascinating and revealing - it’s right there in Anne’s own thoughts in your excellent quotation - that Wentworth’s inner thoughts are hardly to “be detected by any who understood him less than herself”. This is clearly Anne’s estimation of her own abilities to understand what he’s thinking. Why I think the passage in question (that I was looking at in the video) is interesting is because it allows for the overlap between the minds of the two characters - essentially, it can be read as both what Wentworth thinks and what Anne thinks Wentworth things, which implies that Anne does indeed know Wentworth as well as she thinks she does.
We might contrast this, for example, with Lizzy Bennet in Pride and Prejudice who thinks that she understands Darcy and can interpret his expressions, when of course in many ways she’s completely wrong! Take this scene where Mr Bingley and Mr Darcy are talking at Netherfield:
“[Bingley:] “I assure you, that if Darcy were not such a great tall fellow, in comparison with myself, I should not pay him half so much deference. I declare I do not know a more awful object than Darcy, on particular occasions, and in particular places; at his own house especially, and of a Sunday evening, when he has nothing to do.”
Mr. Darcy smiled; but Elizabeth thought she could perceive that he was rather offended, and therefore checked her laugh…”
(P&P ch.10)
But there is no particular evidence that Mr Darcy is offended. He and Bingley are old friends, and Bingley teases Darcy often. The only evidence we are given of his reaction is that “Darcy smiled”. The narrative voice leaves the details of the expression, the “smile”, totally vague. Is it a warm smile, is it a forced smile, is it a contemptuous smile? We just don’t know. All we have is Lizzy’s interpretation that it is an offended smile. This is completely different to the description of Wentworth’s smile that you quote (when Mary’s being snobby), where the narrative voice describes it as an “artificial, assenting smile, followed by a contemptuous glance”. If we compare the two:
• “Mr. Darcy smiled; but Elizabeth thought she could perceive that he was rather offended”
• “an artificial, assenting smile, followed by a contemptuous glance, as he turned away, which Anne perfectly knew the meaning of”
the narrative voice gives us much more reason to trust Anne’s interpretation of Wentworth’s smile than Lizzy’s interpretation of Darcy’s smile.
And yes the text does seem to endow a deeper understanding of Captain Wentworth to Anne Elliot than Captain Wentworth's understanding of Anne Elliot. Could we put this down to the fact that the novel is told largely from Anne’s perspective?
As a complete aside, I think Dick Musgrove may be my favourite character who doesn't actually appear in the novel. There's so much to say about him!
@@DrOctaviaCox Actually he perceives when she is annoyed by her little nephew, when she is fatigued during the long walk, when she is admired by a stranger. He is perceptive, maybe unconsciously.
Yes, indeed. Good point. What I meant was that the narrative gives much more space to Anne's contemplation of Wentworth than the other way around. We aren't given access to any of Wentworth's reflections on these events in the same way that we are with Anne.
@@DrOctaviaCox yes there’s no evidence that Darcy was offended when Bingley mocked him and it’s natural as they are very good friends . But Lizzie thinks he might be offended, which only shows how often she misunderstands Darcy. She wrongly accuses him of having a propensity to hate everyone and Darcy pointedly replies that hers is to wilfully misunderstand them ( or him particularly).
I absolutely love this interpretation. Love it. Thank you!
You're very welcome!
It's really interesting. I think it is a mix of both but only on second readings as we gain knowlege about him during the first reading.
The first time listening I thought it to be Annes thoughts and feelings alone, as we have not had knowledge of Fredericks feelings of bitterness and anger (those are explained later in the book by himself).
When we have that knowledge we can easily see this paragraph from both sides.
But I think a very important aspect is the "she had given him up to oblige others". That is Anne! At some point in the novel Wentworth is overhearing a conversation where there is talk about Lady Russel giving her advice. Before that Wentworth never knew why Anne refused him. Or at least I always read it like that.
Now i can't search for that passage as I do not have the book (only audio) but i'm fairly certain. Because that is when he begins to understands and forgives.
So ultimately I think this is all Anne but we can interpret more on second readings. Which is somehow Austens speciality, as she does that with every novel
Yes, there's always more to unpick on a second reading! And third, fourth, fifth...
I'm not quite sure which episode you mean? Do you mean when Anne overhears Louisa tell Wentworth that she had refused Charlies?
""Mary is good-natured enough in many respects," said she [Louisa]; "but she does sometimes provoke me excessively, by her nonsense and pride--the Elliot pride. She has a great deal too much of the Elliot pride. We do so wish that Charles had married Anne instead. I suppose you know he wanted to marry Anne?"
After a moment's pause, Captain Wentworth said--
"Do you mean that she refused him?"
"Oh! yes; certainly."
"When did that happen?"
"I do not exactly know, for Henrietta and I were at school at the time; but I believe about a year before he married Mary. I wish she had accepted him. We should all have liked her a great deal better; and papa and mamma always think it was her great friend Lady Russell's doing, that she did not. They think Charles might not be learned and bookish enough to please Lady Russell, and that therefore, she persuaded Anne to refuse him."
The sounds were retreating, and Anne distinguished no more. Her own emotions still kept her fixed. She had much to recover from, before she could move. The listener's proverbial fate was not absolutely hers; she had heard no evil of herself, but she had heard a great deal of very painful import. She saw how her own character was considered by Captain Wentworth, and there had been just that degree of feeling and curiosity about her in his manner which must give her extreme agitation." (ch.10
A crucial line here is "She saw how her own character was considered by Captain Wentworth". Anne imagines, with "extreme agitation", how Wentworth would interpret that Lady Russell persuaded Anne out of marriage (again).
i felt the paragraph is her thinking and fears because i cant imagine Wentworth ever thinking of himself as having a confident temper when it comes to relationships... but then again that could still be him trying to lie to himself to convince himself
Oddly, I had never read there to be a shift to him. I had always considered the shift to be from emotional reaction to concluding what the reported statement must mean. I never trusted the report. I assume he would lie or say something so generic that it was easily given meaning by the listener. Anne even does this almost immediately. The more I think about it, putting those thoughts into his head drastically changes my perspective of Wentworth. You are going to make me reread the whole thing!
Ha! - that's no bad thing. It's always a joy to reread Austen!
@@DrOctaviaCox I have reread that section and it does have to at some point switch from her perspective. She couldn't have been quoting his conversation with Sophia. I do agree now with your first suggestion where it switches. I think I had a predefined opinion of Wentworth from having watched the 1995 movie when I first read it. Then resisted adjusting it when I read this. I am guessing this will please you. I have never studied Austen, just simply enjoyed it. Now you have me studying it. I watched my first video of yours yesterday. Thanks. And yes, I have to reread this now, I do think this adds a lot more depth to Wentworth than I had previously given him.
@@billbraun5979 me too, exactly what you wrote.
I had always thought this was Anne's thoughts although the words 'never seen a woman since he thought her equak' sounded very vain for humble Anne.
His later actions showed that he never thought the things she imagined.
However, it is conceivable that it could be interpreted the alternate way and that she managed to win over his harsh judgement of her over the time he later spent with her.
I never thought of either of those interpretations! I always assumed that it was Anne's opinions OF HERSELF, not the opinions she worried that he had of her. We can see an almost logic train as if she is convincing herself of certain "facts". She's been repressing her regret of her decision for a long time but, now faced with the object of said regret, she's forced to face it head on. I always saw it as a short if depressive self-beration.
I think it shifts at that second reiterating of his name. There's so much defensiveness in that paragraph, and it sounds much like he's responding to someone saying, 'Sheesh, Wentworth, what if her brainless sister repeats that to her? And why would you even say something so unkind?'
You say at the end of the video that with free indirect discourse you go into the mind of the character even if their self assessment is wrong( Wentworth thinking that her power with him was gone forever) . Could this apply to Anne too when she thinks that he had not forgiven Anne Elliot ( if we believe it’s her perspective in this paragraph). Because we are not given any evidence that he hasn’t forgiven her.He avoids her because he’s hurt and it’s awkward meeting after so many years. Maybe he doesn’t want to say much about Anne to Henrietta. And Henrietta doesn’t guess that him saying that Anne is so altered that he should not have known her, shows that he knew her in the past. When he says later on that in his eyes she could never alter, maybe he’s not talking of physical appearance but his feelings for her.
Absolutely! I think it's such an interesting passage _because_ we move between Anne's perception and Wentworth's perception, and it's not clear exactly when the change happens. And, moreover, both could be / are wrong in their perceptions of their feelings about and interpretations of the other.
It does seem to be thoughts held equally by both from “she had used him ill”, they understand each other’s thought processes regularly.
Yes, Anne certainly seems to understand - or attempt to understand - his. I suppose we are more aware of it from Anne's perspective because that is what we have most access to as readers.
Wentworth has been supporting James Benwick very recently prior to joining his sister at Kellynch. This would have refreshed his own grief and resentment just as he meets Anne again.
I think it's what Wentworth thinks of her in his worst and most uncharitable moments, and she's read him correctly, in her worst and most uncharitable moments towards herself.
However, when taking a more measured approach, we can see that she had good reason to refuse him when she did, and if he had calmly understood that, and simply waited patiently and proposed again only a couple of years later when he first returned from sea, she would have been in a position to accept him then.
It's so cleverly done how, we are initially lead to blame Anne for being cautious and speculative, when in the end, the novel schools Wentworth that an impulsive and emotional nature can lead to undue misery as well, for instance; in the example I gave above of their being married sooner, Louisa injuring herself when she jumps from the steps and Wentworth getting himself in a pickle because his temporary imagined fancy that he would want an impulsive wife has lead him to flirt with Louisa to the point where he is almost honour bound to propose to a woman he does not love.
Love these videos! 💕
I read it as Anne explaining herself Frederick's thoughts. She knows him and his values, believes she did him wrong (as the cause if her anxiety of meeting him again) and isn't in belief that he'd hold him in his heart the way she holds him. Anne isn't impartial in any way, and has a low opinion of herself. In the beginning of the book it is said she's a late bloomer in the beauty department, but she thinks she's ugly now.
Also, I wouldn't consider his words accurate, especially considering they were carried by Mary, who's known to enjoy her own drama. Dramatizing his attitude to the negative in regards to his opinion of Anne would satisfy her idea that he favors one of the sisters. Frederick could mean she's altered for the better, as a beauty she wasn't seven years before, but Mary's penchance for drama and Anne's low opinion of herself twisted his words to a negative. Doesn't the fact that he remembers her vividly to make a comparison be a point of consideration to how he meant it?
"Altered" isn't a negative, it depends on if the switch is for the better or worse. Anne assumes it's for the worse, but Frederick might not mean it so. His feeling is deep, but the messenger doesn't know that. Mary doesn't know even that they were engaged! As far as she's concerned, it's an aquantance making a slight, which she can delight over while laying down on a headache as no one cares for her illness. To Anne however, it's the death of all hope.
Fascinating!
Thank you, this is brilliant
Glad you liked it!
I thought that Wentworth's perspective might have started a paragraph earlier! That he said it spitefully, hoping that it would get back to her, but that he doesn't admit to himself that he's still angry at her.
Exactly Maria - Wentworth, it seems to me, doesn't realise / acknowledge even to himself how angry with Anne he remains. Wentworth imagines that "Her power with him was gone for ever" but he's misguided! His memory of her still very much guides his thinking.
I don’t know if I take too shallow a read on things. Or just am not as analytical. I assumed the debate over whose voice is being heard when discussing her appearance, Anne is thinking what she thinks he is thinking by the words that came to her. This whole book wouldn’t be what it is if not for the constant game of telephone. People hear what echoes in their own head when they hear something possibly negative. Or even good things, you see the best outcome for yourself. I think a lot of life isn’t what is said, but how what’s said is heard. I’m not sure if I’m making sense. 😆 But my grasp on this has always been that the “truth” is in the ear of the hearer. This is what makes the internet a much more dangerous place. Our prejudices color everything we perceive. I think it’s a theme in all of her books.
This is wonderful!
Thank you. Octavia
I have always thought that paragraph (Frederick Wentworth had used such words, or something like them…) was still in Anne’s mind, her assumptions about what Wentworth was thinking, coming from her own internalized feelings about herself and her behavior to him in the past, essentially making excuses for the slight she perceives in his words, because she feels she deserves every bad thing.
Very interesting, but I always assumed it was all Anne's (over)thinking and her fears, since the story is told from her perspective, not from his.
The story is certainly largely told from Anne's perspective. But we do enter into other characters's minds at certain moments too (e.g. via the Free Indirect Discourse in the very opening of the novel, we move between Sir Walter's mind - such as it is! - and the narrative voice's ironical take on Sir Walter's view of himself), so I think it's worth pondering whether this moment is all Anne or not.
I really feel like we're just looking into Anne's interpretation of the situation. That's my own personal bias, though. I'm always over-thinking, which I think is why other people's thoughts weigh so heavily on me--I give them too much credence (sometimes far too much). I suppose I always thought Anne was a kindred soul in that regard--lamentably for the two of us.
It is hard to say whether these are Wentworth's or Anne's thoughts and one reason is that they in fact do share these thoughts. This is what he actually thinks of her, it is what she understands him to think of her and it may well be what she thinks of herself. They are close in feelings, though somewhat different in personality. She believes that she is horribly altered. She believes that she had been too weak and had cast off her chance for happiness in life. She believes that she had been too apt to be persuaded.
It seems that these two are Austen's most ideal hero and heroine. They are all that she valued: morality, intelligence, good manners, culture, kindness, talent, energy, gentleness and rightful respect for order. Her error is persuadability, his is lack of persistence. These are the failings that Austen most forgives, errors of gentle souls.
5'25: 'without an idea that they would be carried round to her' - this must be Anne's voice because we do not know that HE knows that the words have been 'carried round to her'. Does he know that those words have been carried round to her?? I don't think we know that. If I am right, it seems to be clear that this is still Anne's voice. Do you agree?
I do.
I think ppl with lower self esteem (like I was when I read this first) will automatically assume it's her thoughts. When you feel unlovable, unforgivable, unworthy, you tend to have that kind of narrative in your own head.
I have read Persuasion a couple of times. Now I will not pretend to have studied it as carefully as you, but I always took the novel to describe events and situations from Anne Elliott’s perception, not Fredrick Wentworth’s. Rightly or wrongly understood, Anne thought he had not forgiven her, but we do not know if that is truly the case.
I think one of the things that's so wonderful about Austen's use of the narrative voice is that it's so slippery! She leaves room for different interpretations. She leaves up up to readers to make choices for themselves.
In general that is the case where Anne is a participant or observer but there are points at which we get Wentworth's point of view and thoughts. Mainly at times where Anne cannot be the observer. For example we get his wishes for the character of his wife and his views of Bath societies view of the Eliot sisters. This passage is tricky because it could be either Anne's imagination or Wentworth's report. Probably it's both. At this point Wentworth doesn't have any reason to think Anne still thinks of him and doesn't until the conversation in the hedgerow with Louisa, when he begins to wonder if Anne still feels for him.
I've got some side-eye for Mary. She knows her husband married her on the rebound from Anne, so she's going to have a little extra incentive to make Anne feel bad. I don't think it's all obliviousness on her part. So when we get 'or words like them', I have serious doubts that Mary is quoting him verbatim.
This made me think - Anne is looking down on herself so much in this novel (i.e. how much of her beauty she lost and so on) and her family is really vain, so is it possible she isn't as bad-looking as she thinks?
Well, she turns Mr Elliot's head...
As the novel progresses, her heart becomes full of love for Cptn Wentworth, and she regains her bloom. Her countenance suffered from depression, lost hope, and regrets, not old age.
That is exactly what I also have been thinking for a very long time. At the beginning of the novel, she had been spending a lot (too much) time with her father and sister(s), who are all extremely vain, don't like/value her very much and constantly belittle her. I'm sure they have been letting her know that they don't think her to be very beautiful, so she finally started to believe it herself. It is very telling, that Anne who herself doesn't value status even half as much as the rest of her family and Lady Russell, is so often thinking about her "bad looks". That is the influence of her family in my opinion. And she is very unhappy - she has been regretting the break up with Captain Wentworth ever since, she has refused Charles Musgrove some time before, she has resigned into thinking that she has lost her one and only chance for marriage and happiness - of course that also reflects on her perception of her own beauty. There is this very telling scene later in the novel, when Anne overhears two young women gossiping about herself and Mr Elliot, and one of them says that she always found Anne more beautiful than Elizabeth, but that Anne has a more delicate beauty and most men prefer Elizabeth's type. Now, you got me thinking that maybe Anne also misinterpreted Captain Wentworth's "so very altered" comment. He remembered 18 year old Anne, in love, happy, cheerful - and now he met 27 year old Anne, resigned, depressed, very unhappy = "very altered". And Anne, who probably had heard her father too often comment on her not being beautiful, thought that Wentworth also found her no longer beautiful.
@@uteeff9988 I could never put it together so well! Yes, that's what I've been thinking too
@@janah.8471 Thank you!
I think it shifts in the first line of the third paragraph. "Fredrick Wentworth had used those words" I guess that's the pedestrian take away p
I think most if this is still Anne. Attributing her fears and disappointments about herself, confirmed by on offhand comment by him. He is "unaltered" and since she knows him well, knows how and what he thinks.
Anne's thoughts are even based on an unreliable witness's account of an answer to an improper and unexpected question posed by another person. Being Anne Elliot, she didn't allow for the "telephone game" effect.
Mary is the sister of Ann, no ? So she is _eager_ to let her know that he thinks her very much altered (not for the better of course). She is unaware of the fromer romatic connections, she just knows that this man knew her sister when she was a blooming older teenager, and can't resist that jab.
Plus the husband of Mary would have prefered to marry Ann back in the day - and she declined his offer of marriage after she had "lost" Frederic (dude would have been off better with her) and she may have sensed the latent affection he has for his now sister in law. And that she was second choice.
How does Jane Austen's never writing male dialogue unless there is a woman who hears it fit into the internal dialogue of Wentworth? Wouldn't that device make Anne's thinking alone? I see another segment where you talk about Anne's "self-persuasions"--that seems to suggest she is talking herself into self flagellation. Maybe? [Love these segments that now have me now looking at other writers like Trollope, Disraeli, Gaskell and Heyer. ] Who followed Austen's style next? ]
I think Anne's internal thought never stopped. I think Jane Austen is making a case for Anne's constancy in loving Wentworth. Anne is under a deep cognitive dissonance here. Her love is selfless & constant
I like your posts, but they're nearly unwatchable with all the advertisements . UA-cam 🤨
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I love Jane Austen, but I dislike Mansfield Park. There is not one single character in the entire novel that I care about in the least degree. I would have totally agreed with those that think that Fanny is insipid and so is Edmund, in my opinion. You may very well be right in your assessment that she is not, but either way, it doesn't matter, because for me she has no redeeming character traits.
Oh no, this comment was supposed to be on the Is Fanny Price insipid video. I have no idea what happened!
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The change occurs in the paragraph that starts with his name.
Anne has suffered actual abuse, which may explain her acquiescence to what should not be tolerated. Her sisters and father are habitually cruel to her.
She understands him but he doesn't understand her.
Anne has apparently not matured as people usually do in their twenties. Her interior dialogue is very teenager-ish.
It doesn't - it's not his view but her projection of it.
His voice seems to begin at “she had used him ill”. This seems to be where he gets stuck in his thinking and has done fir nearly 8 years.
Well put - it is as though it is that thought which has gone round and round his head when thinking about Anne Elliot since their break-up, as he implicitly acknowledges in his letter to her later in the novel: "Unjust I may have been, weak and resentful I have been" (ch.23).
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