If you like the work I do, then you can support it here: www.paypal.com/donate?hosted_button_id=D8LSKGJP2NL4N Thank you very much indeed for watching my channel.
Hi Dr. Cox -- I was re-reading Mansfield Park when something perhaps discordant (?) caught my attention. Fanny Price refused to give guidance to Henry Crawford's behavior when he requested it from her, but Fanny gave guidance to her sister Susan's behavior when she thought it would be an advantage to Susan. Fanny also seemed happy with Edmund's guidance towards herself growing up, and thought well of him for giving Tom Bertram guidance when he is recovering / in his sickbed. I think she must admire the practice in general, despite what she told Henry. I don't think Fanny is the sort of character who would just say something convenient to get someone to leave her be, even if that someone is as bothersome as Henry. What makes instructing Henry so different?
Would you consider creating a "paid subscriber" list that didn't have any advertisements? I often listen while I'm painting, so it's hard to push the skip button (I realize I could subscribe to UA-cam overall as well, and I might eventually do that) but I'm also a paid subscriber on another channel which is why I wondered.
@@mjrose9329 I think that Fanny knows that he is only flirting and is being insincere. She is refusing to be drawn into an intimate and inappropriate conversation with someone whom (or is it "who"?) she cannot bluntly tell to "Buzz off, buster." She does not like or respect Mr. Crawford; she clearly sees his real character. Susan, Edmund, and Tom are beloved family members and it is her right and her duty to help them with her wisdom. Mr. Crawford is a morally corrupt stranger (and a very real and powerful threat to her happiness) and has no such right. She is fighting to remain unmarried to him while not completely alienating her domineering relatives upon whom she and her brothers and sisters are dependent. I think.
Hello Dr. Cox ,thank you for your very enjoyable videos. I wonder if you could do one on why Mr Walter Elliot sets his sights on Anne Elliot and not Elizabeth. Elizabeth would seem the obvious choice being her father's favourite and gullible. Are there any clues in the novel that could answer this question?
From my modern perspective I think I'd be more inclined to gossip about the lack of judgement of the Bennet parents. It always seemed such a negligent decision to me to let a teenage girl go to Brighton with the Fosters who are neither relatives nor close family friends. What did they expect would happen?
Austen certainly blames them: she clearly faults Mrs. Bennet for flagrantly encouraging Lydia's mad obsession with men in uniform, and Mr. Bennet for not checking these excesses, and for basically abdicating his responsibility as the head of the family purely for his own selfish convenience, because he just doesn't want the hassle of crossing the will of his wife and daughters, even for their safety and well-being. Elizabeth actually pleads with him, to no avail against the wailing of her mother and sister, to prevent Lydia from going to Brighton---a town with a pretty racy reputation at the time thanks to the Prince Regent and his set, which Austen's readers would have recognized. I imagine it was the last place a respectable young lady without proper supervision should have been seen!
@@marijeangalloway1560 Agreed. Austen even has Mr. Bennett blaming himself. When he returns from searching for Lydia and Wickham in London and Lizzy sympathetically speaks of how much suffering he had endured, he says, "Say nothing of that. It is my own fault, and I ought to feel it."
I had never thought about the fact that Lady Catherine didn't know how Lydia and Wickham's marriage had been "patched up" - you made such a good point about how she's completely in the dark about Darcy's involvement in it. What's even funnier is that she's forbidding them from getting engaged without knowing he already has proposed unsuccessfully!
She probably only heard about it from Mr. Collins and only knew as much as he did. He’s not the type to be discreet. Plus it made him relieved that Elizabeth refused him.
@@harringt100 “They agree with me in apprehending that this false step in one daughter will be injurious to the fortunes of all the others; for who, as Lady Catherine herself condescendingly says, will connect themselves with such a family? And this consideration leads me moreover to reflect, with augmented satisfaction, on a certain event of last November; for had it been otherwise, I must have been involved in all your sorrow and disgrace.” Chapter 48
@@janedoll3237 correct the November event is Elizabeth refusing Mr collins. Instead he is only in the situation of being the cousin of this Infamous woman who has done this terrible thing. Instead of her brother by marriage, if Elizabeth had accepted him. If Elizabeth had married Mr Collins it would have been Mr Collins's responsibility to leave his parish and go after Lydia and try to help Mr Bennett recover her in order to avoid Scandal himself for not even trying. But only being a cousin he would not have the same responsibility.
Goes to show how lucky Lydia was while still getting in a terrible situation. She may be married to Wickham, but at least she's still part of society and has access to all it's benefits.
@@janebaker966 i think she was just a silly girl who read too many novels about love snd romance and was not hard headed and rational enough. Her relatives should have been hard headed and rational for her.
@@eastlynburkholder3559she could have ruined the futures of not only herself but of her sisters too: each of them at this point have no future outside poverty without making a good marriage. Lydia continues to be unabashed and self satisfied after her saving. She is incredibly selfish. I do agree though that she is terribly young and suffers from some pretty poor and neglectful parenting.
@@eastlynburkholder3559No, that was Catherine Morland. Lydia Bennet has probably never read a single book willingly, disregarding it as an activity more suited for her sister Mary
I assumed that the most likely outcome for Lydia was prostitution, but was always curious about the phrase "come upon the town." Thanks for the explanation.
Although I had caught before in Austen the fates of women who did not conform to the rules ("dying in a poorhouse," "sinking into sin") and had gathered it had to do with being forced into prostitution, I had no idea this phrase ("coming upon the town") was a fairly explicit reference to the same thing. The layer of horror in Austen -- not due to her going for that, but due to how women and "lower" people were treated as a matter of course -- is omnipresent. I'm glad she at least called out the spite of it. I don't know what else she could have done. It seems to me she was partly warning young women of what the landscape really looked like for them.
I always thought it meant that they would have preferred her come back to town unmarried, because it would be more fun to gossip about. Loved finding out about what this phrase actually meant
@@Cat_Woods No, I don't think anyone at that time was under any illusions about women going outside social norms. Austen was just pointing out the hypocrisy in society. The gossips pretended to be saddened by Lydia's misadventure, but were actually delighted in discussing it. And of course were disappointed by the somewhat happy resolution.
Another aspect of the gossips of Meryton is that of class. The Bennets are the gentry of the area. People are only too happy to hear about the travails and tragedies of the upper classes. "Those Longbourne girls thought they were little princesses, romping around the town, catching every young man's eye, buying up all the hats. They're not so much." Even today we spiteful common folk love to hear about the trials (sometimes literal trials) of movie stars and pop idols, the closest we Yanks have to a nobility. It's sad but almost universal.
200 years ago we were no different than today in our dealings with folk. That is the beauty of Austen's scholarship. Go back further to Shakespeare; same applies. Plato and the Greek texts all have the same nuances.
I was born in 1962 in a village in the Yorkshire Dales. Village gossips saw themselves as the defenders of morality, morality, that is, as defined by them. Objectively, spite and envy were often the main motivation behind their moral crusade against a victim, and cruelty was the deserved punishment. It seems that very little changed regarding the power of the village gossips between 18th century rural Hertfordshire and 20th century rural Yorkshire.
Jane Austen was remarkably open about the types of "scandalous" behavior that happened in her level of society. People think of her as so "proper" and of course she was, but there is plenty of adultery, fornication and illegitimacy in her books. Then as now, appearance was all.
Mrs. Jennings in "S & S", usually generous and warm-hearted, callously says of marriage to Colonel Brandon: "Two thousand a year without debt or drawback --- except the little love-child, indeed; aye, I had forgot her, but she may be 'prenticed out at a small cost."
There is a lot more sex in those 19th C novels than most people realise,mainly as theyve not read them. Even Dickens! I find Trollope engagingly racy and I like him more because he is pretty kind to ugly old spinsters unlike Dickens and Thackeray. Trollope sort of recognises that old spinsters have got a bit of life in em and he quite likes em. But to return to my point they used long winded sentences, they used what I'd term code words and phrases so most people knew what they were saying but if you didn't know it wouldn't harm you. Like how kids laugh at Carry On films before they understand the double entendres because Kenneth Williams,Hattie Jacques,Sid James et al are inherently funny in Carry On mode
When you think about it, you can almost imagine the gossips of the village quickly moving on from Lydia to covertly criticising the Bennet family as a whole. When Lizzy expresses concern about Lydia being allowed to go to Brighton in Chapter 42, Mr. Bennet (sort of naively) remarks that "Wherever you and Jane are known, you must be respected and valued; and you will not appear to less advantage for having a couple of -- or I may say, three -- very silly sisters", and I like to imagine that he is right in the sense that the people of Meryton would continue to treat Jane and Lizzy with respect, but I can also picture the gossips moving on from "Did you hear this about Lydia Bennet?" to "Well, are you really surprised? My nephew's a stable hand at Netherfield and he told me Mary Bennet showed herself up at Mr. Bingley's ball by playing the piano before she was invited to - and her singing was dreadful!" to "I heard that clergyman cousin of theirs made some ridiculous, boring speech immediately afterwards, you know that one who married the eldest Miss Lucas?" and "Why didn't Mr. Bennet stop them? He's the head of the family" to "You know him, he never disciplines those girls; he just laughs at the stupid things they do!" and "It makes you wonder just how close Lydia was to those militia, doesn't it?" They'd have something to talk about for weeks there, ripping the whole family to shreds in the process . . .
It has always seemed to me that Wickham's posting at Newcastle is a sort of banishment. One far more distant than any farm and far more fraught with possibilities for Lydia's ultimate misery. This is not Jane Austen being spiteful or moralistic. She is being clear-eyed about the chances for happiness for Lydia and Wickham's marriage.
That's a great point. And Mrs Bennet seems to have thought so too - the text in relation to her even uses the word "banish": "And their mother had the satisfaction of knowing that she would be able to show her married daughter in the neighbourhood before she was banished to the North" (ch.50).
@@londongael414 In the last chapter that's exactly what Jane Austen says: Lydia is always scrounging money from Lizzy, she and Wickham are always moving from place to place trying to save money, and outstaying their welcome with the Bingleys, and Wickham's affection for Lydia "soon sank into indifference". He's off carousing in London or Bath (subsidized by Darcy for Elizabeth's sake) while Lydia visits Pemberley, so she is trapped in a loveless marriage with a wastrel -everything the Meryton gossips could desire, had they only known it!
@@londongael414 I love the phrase you use here, saying that Lydia "resists misery." I always interpreted Lydia's unabashed attitude in the wake of the scandal as evidence not of mere naivete, but an indomitable spirit - an outright refusal to be ground down even a little bit or to even acknowledge the situation's gravity (much to Lizzy's irritation). Austen could not have known that Napoleon would escape and then there would be the hundred days and the epic battle at Waterloo, but, with the benefit of hindsight, I imagine Lydia following the drum to the continent with her dashing officer husband, dancing at Lady Richmond's famous ball (where, indeed, other infamous parties, like Caro Lamb, would be in attendance), wrangling what money and influence she could out of her better-placed sisters, showing off Wickham's war medals, naming her children after their rich aunts and uncles (godparents, certainly), and generally doing a bit of all right for herself on the fringes of society. I always loved the fact that Austen refused to condemn Lydia to a terrible fate and, instead, let her be more or less ok. I actually thought we saw glimpses of her matrimonial future in the marriage of her own parents, whose early affection, born of Mrs. Bennet's reputed beauty, had long sunk into seeming indifference. It would be a tolerable enough existence, surely, and I am glad that Lydia escaped any more serious consequence. She was, after all, only a teenager.
@@londongael414 Oh, Becky Sharpe! I love her. I sort of wish Becky and Lydia and Wickham could meet on the continent and get into scrapes. I guess Rawdon can come, too. I know that Austen's ending for the Wickhams was less spectacular than that - just scraping by on family charity, whatever spark there was long extinguished - but she didn't know Waterloo was coming!
I think we tend to forget, when reading such escapist novels, or watching the movies made of these novels, about the reason it was so important for young ladies not to stray outside the socially accepted lines. Disgrace meant a life of misery, or even death, and not marrying meant a life of degradation and poverty. Life was very unkind to most women in Jane Austin's day! Thank you for an enjoyable listen!
@@vorkosigrrl6047 I noticed that the "good" doctors in those shows weirdly refuse to use the standard medical treatments of their day (none of them use leeches or cupping or bleeding, for example), and yet still rise to the top of their profession.
@@vorkosigrrl6047 The Bridgerton novels had a lot more focus on the acceptable mores of the Regency period and those mores formed importantance to the plots in the novels. The Bridgerton Netflix series has changed many of these, which I think detracts from the series' plots. There seems to be a significant cancel culture in current times to try to cast shame and negativity on the mores of previous times, rather than understand them, even though we might not agree with them now.
As a french speaker, I had no recollection of such a harsh comment. I think the subtility of the real meaning of « coming upon the town » was lost in translation in the french versions, I’ve checked several and it was either edited out or translated by « coming back to her father’s home ». It’s a shame, because I like this glimpse into the dark and vicious nature of people who present themselves as respectable.
Honestly, I think the English meaning is also lost on most modern-day readers. I certainly had no recollection of a reference to prostitution either. Very interesting to know about the French translation too!
@@astrothsknot It would be quite difficult to know exactly what expression would be in use at that time, among that socio-economic class, and in the countryside. If I were to try and translate it, I would probably have the ladies say that Lydia should have joined a « maison », which means « house » but is also a reference to a « maison close », a brothel, as they had been legalized few years prior in Paris and were already multiplying. It could also been interpreted as meaning the household of a wealthy family (implying working as a servant).
@@javierwolfle3593 it reminds me about that translation of ancient texts meme and how we just don't understand the oldest written joke, because it references a way of life that no longer exists.
And some readers are shocked that Collins (a cleric) proposed such harsh treatment of Lydia. That was the way people thought. It didn't sound like he found it funny, at least.
Being a non-native speaker, I had no idea what "coming upon the town" meant. You have to wonder how sinister it is that good people of Meriton, who probably knew Lydia as a child and saw her grow up, treated what would've been a certain tragedy for her and her family as some celebrity drama. Austen was much more ruthless in her honest observations than first meets the eye.
I had no idea what “coming upon the “town” meant. I assumed it meant returning home as a single girl, no husband, in shame, and that she would then be shunned from polite society. Did it never happen that girls who had “misadventures” were taken back in by their families? Thanks for the Illuminating video.
It's my pleasure, Vorkosigrrl. I'm sure that it _did_ happen, but it must not _be seen_ to have happened. It mustn't get out, in other words. Mary Crawford in _Mansfield Park_ for example is more concerned about keeping the rumour of Mrs Rushworth and Henry Crawford secret than anything else: "Say not a word of it; hear nothing, surmise nothing, whisper nothing till I write again. I am sure it will be all hushed up", she writes to Fanny Price (ch.46). Lydia is taken back in by her family - once she is Mrs Wickham, at least. Mr Bennet claims "Into _one_ house in this neighbourhood they shall never have admittance. I will not encourage the impudence of either, by receiving them at Longbourn. A long dispute [with Mrs Bennet] followed this declaration; but Mr. Bennet was firm" (ch.50). Not that firm! Jane and Elizabeth persuade him out of it: "His daughter’s request, for such it might be considered, of being admitted into her family again ... received at first an absolute negative. But Jane and Elizabeth, who agreed in wishing, for the sake of their sister’s feelings and consequence, that she should be noticed on her marriage by her parents, urged him so earnestly yet so rationally and so mildly, to receive her and her husband at Longbourn, as soon as they were married, that he was prevailed on to think as they thought, and act as they wished."
@@DrOctaviaCox And yet, once Lydia returns and her display and lack of consciousness of her 'debacle' makes me wonder, did Austin mean for Lydia to really not know she had acted outside of society's rules or was this a case of Lydia behaving in what we now call cognitive dissonance (the way of Mrs. Bennet's portrayal)? Your videos are so enjoyable 😃
Ironically, in the future, Lydia would have happily become one of those spiteful gossips as she had already proven when she was talking about the young heiress who had turned Wickham down.
I've read of employers who took their servant girls back after they had 'got into trouble,' but it was always carefully hushed up so no one knew they kept an 'indiscreet' maidservant - not that the girl herself would have wanted anyone to know! But the level of devotion often expressed by such servants to employers who had 'saved them from disgrace' seems to intimate they hadn't expected it. Or there was a sort of double standard: it may have been considered that the right thing for an employer to do was take the girl back, but no one else would hire her if they didn't!
@@cmm5542 Could also be it was the employer or someone they knew that was the cause of the “trouble.” :/ I find it interesting that P&P doesn’t fall heavily on condemning Lydia. Yes she is not bright, yes she was easy prey, but the fault of that is laid at her parents’ feet, even by Lizzie who wishes her father would have worked to counteract their mother’s carelessness about their upbringing, much as she loves her father. Lydia was 15-16 in the novel, IIRC. Hormones running high, the brain still developing, emotions always at max-and then for her mother to indulge it all and her father just to ignore or even mock her instead of making sure she was well-educated and had things to do besides run after the officers. And there’s shade thrown on Wickham too, who nearly managed to get Miss Darcy, as well-educated and accomplished as she was, to elope with him. And even with his character so thoroughly exposed, he thought he could still make a marriage alliance to solve his money problems, all while continuing to live with Lydia. I don’t know if that’s just his desperation because of his debts or what. And this all really shows Darcy’s character to actually help the man he despises, and a girl who is so careless, both of whom society would condemn to worse fates, all without the certainty that Lizzie would ever change her mind about him. He doesn’t even want Lizzie to be told. It’s just really magnificent.
Your delight in "unpicking" with surgical precision the famous line about Lydia "Coming upon the town" is almost fiendish and had me completely in stitches. Neither man nor woman is perfectible nor do they much change, and especially in the essentials. Thank you for lifting my spirits.
I always imagined Lydia's potential fate of being 'secluded in some distant farmhouse' to allude to her becoming pregnant by Wickham, but as the comparison with Maria Rushworth (nee Bertram) makes clear, it was a likely outcome even without a pregnancy to cover up. As Mary Bennet says, in those days 'a woman's reputation is no less brittle than it is beautiful...!' I do wonder however what would have happened to the young women not of the gentry class who were seduced by Wickham, who would not have a Darcy coming to their rescue to patch things up. Would they also end up 'on the town' or would less strict standards be brought to bear on them?
Well, yes, indeed. I suppose that Lydia did at least have Mr Gardiner as a support too. And if absolutely necessarily, then Mr Bennet would presumably have been compelled to do something, if only to protect his other daughters' "brittle" reputations. Mary Wollstonecraft had her first daughter, Fanny Imlay, while she was unmarried - although she and the man in question (Gilbert Imlay) did pretend to have been married. Apart from the very rich who (then as now!) could pretty much get away with anything, I think the pressure to be 'respectable' ran very deep through much of society.
That’s always how I read it. That’s what happened when I was a teen - a girl would suddenly go stay with her aunt in the country, or if her folks were rich, to somewhere vague and rural in Europe. A year later she’d be back, oddly changed (of course she was; a year brings a lot of changes at that age no matter what) and oh the gossip would fly. Austen’s phrase so neatly matched those events that it never occurred to me the seclusion was permanent or that she had been banished, as opposed to hiding in seclusion.
Well, Fantine in Les Miserables WAS a poor woman who got pregnant out of wedlock. When her lover left her, she was forced to move out of the place she lived in and had to hide the fact that she was an unmarried mother, lying and saying that she was a widow when asked why she had a child. She was even manipulated by the Tenardiers (the family who was taking care of her daughter) into giving them more money when they found out her child was illegitimate. Unlike in the musical, she was NOT fired from her job because of her situation. Though then again, unlike in the musical, neither her coworkers nor her boss ever found out about her even being a mother. Yet even if there was no risk of her losing her job, if word got out, she and her daughter would still become outcasts, which is why she kept it all hidden.
We need a psychologist to analyze Mr. Bennett. His joke about making sport for their neighbors even though the rest of the family has been mortified by (and socially damaged by) Lydia is yet ANOTHER time that he showed a complete lack of empathy for the family he is supposed to love.
Mr. Bennett has always fascinated me. He is married to a stupid woman whom he clearly despises - perhaps he was attracted to her when she was young and pretty and realised his disastrous mistake too late. He is lazy, he'd rather sit reading in his book room than do anything or make any decision. He clearly loves his two eldest daughters but he does nothing to check his wife's behaviour or that of the three youngest daughters. It's an awful picture of someone who made a bad marriage himself and now simply withdraws.
“It would have been better for conversation…” ie “gossip” 🤦♀️ the narrator puts that very delicately…. The amazing thing about Lydia is her total lack of awareness about how bad her situation is. I wonder how long it would take her to realize it? Probably when she noticed the pattern of being snubbed at balls…
Lydia's reputation would of course been cleansed or perhaps erased by Darcy's marriage to Elizabeth, and secondarily, by Bingley's to Jane. That's two status families accepting/bringing in the recently tainted Bennets. Bingley doing so on his own would not have been enough really, because he's of merchant wealth. Although Lydia could use the comfort of that wealth to soothe the wounds. But Darcy is beyond reproach. If Darcy accepts the Bennets then a family scandal can be endured or even re-interpreted. Darcy knows this and Caroline Bingley would grasp it too. Now Darcy owes it to them, but lots of powerful men have failed in what they owed. So a shout out to Mr Darcy, for rescuing Lydia's social position. Ironically, rescuing Wickham's too, which Darcy wouldn't want.
Re the "other pens". It's worth noting that later nineteenth century novelists, especially Dickens and the Brontes DID dwell on the guilt and punishment of their less moral characters. Do you think that any other Nineteenth Century writer would have allowed Lucy Steele Ferrars to have succeeded? For me, Austen's moral ambiguity is something that has always attracted me to her writing.
@@BlackCanary87 The Tennant of Wildfell Hall is a favorite of mine, and as I said above, Anne doesn't hesitate to punish her less than morally perfect characters!
It's been some time since I read "Pride" but I believe that Austen later addresses Lydia's subsequent life as being envious of her sisters' good fortunes in marrying rich men; Lydia never realizes what she's done to herself by marrying Wickham. It's interesting that Austen provides the conventional moral note to Lydia's story, yet seems to dismiss her as a fool, rather than immoral. Or is she saying that Lydia can't admit her folly to herself and the world at large? The Wickhams are forced to ask for regular financial help, "gifts", from both her well-off sisters in order to survive, which likely would make Lydia deny her predicament, our of pride. I really enjoy your informed reading of the text! or perhaps she's
Wonderful reading, really enjoyed it. I missed the “coming on the town” thing, but remember thinking how matter of fact it was in “Mansfield Park”, my favourite Jane Austen novel, that Sir Thomas could not even think of inflicting such an indignity on the neighbourhood as having Maria come back home after her affair. I’m always amazed at how Jane Austen, in novel after novel, uses her brilliant talent to try and make the world a little kinder to women. When I read her novels with my students (I’m a independent private teacher), I try to point out to them that she is a rare example of a true champion of women. Her word is quite literally deed.
Thank you for explaining this! I love Jane Austen but so much of the subtlety of her writing is lost to modern readers, as most of us are not familiar with how expressions and language was used by then.
Wow! I had no idea 'come upon the town' was such a euphemism. It totally changes the meaning of that sentence. I had always thought it meant that the gossips would have been happier if Lydia was there in town so they could insult her behind her back more directly.
Two thoughts: I have always seen Jane Austen as a kind of sociologist, and her novels as thought experiments. Given a particular set of circumstances, e.g., one of five sisters with no inheritance, but with a certain social standing, what options would a young lady (young women of her own social class) have, and what forces would be in play? In Pride and Prejudice, the different possibilities are explored in the person of each sister. The second thought has to do with the gossips of Meryton. The Bennets are not extremely wealthy, but they are among a small group of leading families in the area. I think the implication is that the gossips of Meryton are a notch below the Bennets socially, and the joy they take in Lydia's apparent downfall has an element of envy along with satisfaction that people they have had to look up to were now brought down, which raises their own standing, at least in their own eyes.
Yes, the gossips were of lower social rank than the Bennets. Indeed, Mr Bennet's annual income of £2,000 would have dwarfed the incomes of almost everyone in Meryton.
We actually see all of your options in pride and prejudice play out. Your options were a rich man (Darcy) who didn't need to marry an inheritance or connections; a rich man who needs your connections (Bingley, who is middle class btw, whose marriage to Jane does a lot in establishing his rep for making the jump to gentry providing he fully buys a house), a gentleman in clergy ( Mr. Collins, who aside from his inheritance, would be seen as a proper choice), and an officer (seen with Wickham and even Colonel Fitzwilliam).
Thank you. That was a very interesting analysis. I had often wondered how that chapter read in the views of the time. The old word 'ruined' applies here. If, indeed, Mr. Darcy had not come to her rescue, Lydia could never have gone back home; she could never have been seen publicly with her sisters. She could never have openly visited her parents and Lydia's apparent lack of understanding of that shocks her family when she does return to them married.
I've often wondered with a character like Wickam, whether he might of ended up " pimping" Lydia out later on as a source of money to feed his gambling habit. It was never his intention to marry her in the first place.
With Elizabeth Darcy and Jane Bingley as her sisters? I doubt it. It would have been illegal and utterly immoral. He might have been willing to do it but he must have known Darcy and Bingley would never allow their sister in law to be that badly mistreated.
Lydia is kind of pimped out anyway even if not physically because her connection to Jane and Elizabeth is exploited for whatever money he can get out of them. The book says something like, with the bingleys they (Wickham and Lydia) frequently stayed so long that even Mr Bingley's Good Humor was overcome and he went so far as to talk of giving them a hint to be gone. Access to the money sent to them from Elizabeth and Jane as well as Elizabeth saying that whenever they removed two new quarters either Jane or herself was sure of being applied to for some little assistance in discharging their bills. He's basically using Lydia as an emotional manipulation device to get money from her sisters and their husbands which without spreading her legs is still a form of prostitution... At least while she was staying with the bingleys she could be sure that Wickham wouldn't be pimping her out from their house because Bingley would have lost his s*** told Darcy and they would have murdered Mr Wickham and buried him somewhere convenient. Essentially the UK equivalent of an honor killing. If she did sleep with other men it was probably only to get rid of Wickham's gambling debts. But the book is very much not clear and leaves it all to conjecture.
@@laurendearnley9595 I agree. Bingley might be gentle by nature. Darcy is warm under it all, but quite capable of making life either unpleasant or short, especially should his wife be enraged, as I suspect she would be.
love the clever comment about her future happiness being uncertain, not out of a wish to see Lydia punished at all but because it's a nod to Wickham's character
When I read "P&P," I knew exactly what the gossips were saying and meant as I live in South Georgia, USA, where "running off to get married" is still treated as a great scandal and sin by the old biddies. It seems to me that little has changed since Austen's day. The little old ladies still relish in discussing the shameful behaviour of young girls and are still privately disappointed if the girls do, indeed, actually marry the men with whom they've eloped (or if they marry later to men with enough sense to ignore the past). At the same time, girls who return from their adventures without husbands are often gossiped about so much that they, themselves, choose to go on long trips or enroll in distant schools just to escape the censure. The difference being, of course, that banishment is not permanent these days nor do most parents completely abandon their daughters so that they're forced into prostitution. Thank goodness for progress!
I have been surprised that many people do not recognize sarcasm in print. That she was being sarcastic was clear from her tone, but your elaboration on the historical meaning of phrases Austen uses makes the meaning even clearer. Thank you.
Lydia’s actions put the members of local society in a difficult position. If they invited her to events they might/would be seen to condone what they don’t approve of. I.e. running off unmarried with Wickham.
Enjoying some of the comments here, on an excellent video. Yes, Lydia got off lightly, it seems, which is in the spirit of this novel and a reflection of the responsibility for her downfall being shared by her parents. One thing I haven't seen mentioned is the danger to Lydia (and any children of the marriage) of 'social diseases', given Wickham's past and his return to old habits, as mentioned in the final chapter.
Great job as usual, Dr Cox. Upon reflection, I wonder to what extent the gossip was additionally fueled by Lydia's behavior even prior to meeting Wickham. Certainly the old ladies of Meryton had previously noticed how outrageous she could be and had already predicted the dire consequences. Perhaps they would have been slightly more compassionate toward another girl who hadn't made such displays.
Fascinating and well done. Now I am curious what conversations and circumstances Austen had to politely sit through. These days, people walk away from toxicity without apology. In Austen’s time of obligatory hospitality ( I assume this) I imagine she was astonished at cruel opinions. To our benefit, she was able to color her with what she observed.
Thank you, A D. Yes, I wonder that too. An awful lot, I imagine. There is something very truthful in the observation by the narrative voice in _Sense and Sensibility_ when confronted with ludicrous, objectionable company saying daft things (in this case Robert Ferrars): "Elinor agreed to it all, for she did not think he deserved the compliment of rational opposition" (ch.36). It also makes me consider just how brutal 'polite' society actually was. The circles in which the Bennets move is supposed to be 'polite', the women are supposed to be genteel and elegant, and yet they know all about 'coming upon the town'... ?
@@g.moeller308 I agree with you. The infamous dead baby joke suggests that she would have been right in the midst of the discussions, though with more wit and subtlety perhaps than the common gossips.
@@DrOctaviaCox What a brilliant remark by Jane Austen: "Elinor agreed to it all for she did not think he deserved the compliment of rational opposition"....and how utterly true of having a small altercation with someone negligible as being not worth bothering about because the person was so far below one's intelligence as not to be in the same world. He would not even understand what you are talking about.
Meryton didn't want anything in particular to happen to Lydia Bennet; they simply wanted grist for the rumor mill. They wanted something to gossip about, and Lydia provided that in spades. Lacking Lydia, they could just as well have gossiped about Caroline Bingly.
A lot of Austen is not changing the social standard per say, but rather shifting towards what should be proper for society. She doesn't deem on Charlotte for making a practical marriage, and even shows how a practical marriage can work out, but she also shows the other side of Lizzie who wants a love marriage and how that is a fine choice as well.
You are quite correct that the implication of "borne" is that the gossips would have been happier with bad news to communicate, but you miss out half the joke, as another meaning of "bear" is carry . Carrying news or bearing news was a common linguistic trope of the time, so it's a witty double meaning.
I think I would have hoped that Lydia's experience would have changed her, and that there would be hope of her growing up. I'm aware that there seemed to be no hope of that. I'm afraid my conversation with her would have been snarky, so, similar to Elizabeth's remarks.
I wonder how things actually would turn out for Lydia? It’s clear from wickam’s excessive eye rolling that he has no good regard of Lydia, but does she ever get it… does she ever see the impropriety of her actions and how they could have destroyed her sister’s chances of good marriages… or does she stay oblivious, like her mother?
My school's copy of Pride and Prejudice, which they kept on a shelf in my 5th grade class, has footnotes and explained the meaning of the phrase. My 10-year-old self was fascinated that the 'genteel' society talked about that kind of thing and was very proud I understood what an Adult BookTM was talking about.
The book says Wickham "meddled" with many of the tradesmen's daughters of Meryton. I have always assumed that meant having sex with them. IF that is the case, what would happen to these young women of lower social class than Lydia?
Very late reply, but due to the classism of the time, lower-class women would not be judged as harshly for an affair with a man above them in social standing. Aside from the power imbalance, actually getting someone 'above' you interested was seen as a bit of a triumph, a risky but perhaps worthwhile gamble on getting the higher-class guy to marry you. If he didn't, your parents would probably be annoyed it hadn't paid off (or for religious reasons if they were pious), but it was unlikely to prevent most guys of your own station from marrying you - you'd only slept with the guy for a rich present or social clout so it didn't count! And most lower-class jobs - shopgirl, servant, barmaid - expected 'lower morals' than in ladies. Unless you got pregnant (a financial liability) you wouldn't get fired for fooling around with the clientele! Might boost sales! (Yes, it was all very mercenary.)
I don’t think they were hoping for mere banishment. I read the desire to see Lydia secluded in a distant farmhouse as a wish that she is secluded there to hide the fact that she has born an illegitimate child. Think about how in sense and sensibility Colonel Brandon had to send away his ward to a distant farmhouse for her confinement
And Lydia and Wickham didn't get off easy- they WERE basically banished- to a regiment in the north and later, kept moving about in "quest of a cheap situation". He wanted a place at court, she wanted "Any place... of about three or four hundred a year." That kind of lifestyle couldn't have been easy, esp as they kept outspending their income.
I live my life in the belief that Jane Austen would have been very proud of you, indeed. Anyone can nitpick to death what they don't like, so "close reading" what you do like must be the greatest possible compliment bestowed upon [Austen's] hard work! Surely, the best kind of reader for an author to have is the kind who enjoys their novels even after subjecting them to sincere scrutiny. Thanks again for sharing your analyses with us! =)
Aaaah... thank you again for such insight! I've read Pride & Prejudice countless times, and thanks to you, I understand more and more of its lovely subtleties.
Your breakdown of the nature of the Meryton gossips made me think of our modern social media communities. The malice, schadenfreude, judgement, and treatment of the misfortunes of others as entertainment is what we see now on Twitter and Facebook comments’ sections. Interesting that, although the structure of our communities has changed since Austen’s day, our nature is not very different.
The longer and deeper you take us into the world JA presents, the more grateful I am to you and to Jane. This opens up the human heart - our very own hearts - to contemplation, to honest evaluation. Thank you!
I am a fairly new subscriber, and I just have to say I have spent the last few weeks bingeing your videos. I love your content, and my favorite videos are these longer analyses videos of classic novels. You have kept me company on many a car ride! Please keep up the amazing work. I watch every video from beginning to end. I love your insight and the fact that you bring to attention all these little details that many of us would otherwise miss. Thank you for taking the time to do what you do, Dr. Cox!
Welcome! And thank you so much for watching. I love all the little details too. The beauty of close reading, I think, is that it reveals so much more about what's going on in a text, and how much more complex it is technically, than one might realise from an initial reading.
First, thank you for producing these wonderful examples of close reading. I teach high school English. You methodical examination of the meaning and significance of words and phrases is what I emphasize to my 9th graders, with whom I've shared these videos. Second, I have always read the reference to Lydia being hidden away at a farmhouse as a euphemism for an unwanted pregnancy. A girl who became pregnant out of wedlock would be sent away to a rural farmhouse until she delivered her baby, after which time, her child would be absorbed into the farm family or its workers. Depending on the young mother's relationship with her family, she may also remain with the yeomanry if cast off by her lover and her parents. Would this reading be valid?
Re: "Coming upon the town," I figured it was either what you mentioned, or that Lydia would be disowned by her family and forced to go to the workhouse. Though I suppose in that case it would be "coming upon the parish." Either way, this points up the depth of the service Mr. Darcy does for the whole Bennet family in arranging Lydia's marriage with Wickham.
Lydia is so unpleasant, arrogant, and selfish that it is difficult to not wish that she suffer some consequences for her behavior. But in true Austen style, we see very clearly how the improper behavior of people effects those around them.
I think it is made clear that Lydia gets some reality check through the years. She ist living quite away from her family with a man that does not really care about her.
Excellent textual analysis, as always. Of course Lydia's banishment to an isolated farmhouse would have been the happiest alternative from the gossips' point of view. They would then be freed from the indignity of having constantly to meet and acknowledge as a married woman one whom they considered 'permanently tainted goods'.
As immature as Lydia appears to be she doesn't deserve her fate. Her entire family LET her down. down. Why didn't Jane or LIzzie help her.she was 15 or 16. Mary was ignored. The parents were really neglectful. Go off with a practical stranger and his child like wife. Badly done Bennets. She lived in misery with handouts from JANE and LIZZIE.
I read 'secluded from the world, in some distant farm house' as a place to go to give birth. Wasn't that common practice if you wanted to keep your pregnancy hidden? You'd go to a farm house, away from society, give birth, and pretend you had a long vacation? That would fit very well with the previous sentence. It's much more gossip if she was either a prostitute or had actually given birth to an illegitimate child.
Jane Austen is my hero and in fact my inspiration to write romance. I would never have become a published novelist but for Ms. Austen and I still study every word she writes to help me become a better writer. And thank you for bringing her works to life for us all.
I've always appreciated Austen's gentler approach to to the "dangers" that any young woman could likely face unless they were absolutely locked up. I'm happy to see that recognized here.
Great video! I always wondered if the older ladies were especially hash on Lydia since she's probably been disrespectful to most of them at least once. I can't imagine Lydia sitting patiently listening to an older person's advice, no matter how well-meaning! Also your curtains are lovely!
Great discussion. I take issue on just one point, the common meaning of “borne” was just carried, as in borne by the wind, The good news was carried through the town. Which is not to say that Austin didn’t choose the word to hint at darker meanings besides.
Love your insight on classic novels. After my mother died of Covid more time to choose interests. Love watercolour painting and analysing English Lit. Pride and prejudice was my mother's 😍
Most likely, Lydia and Wickham will both have affairs, but since they live so far away, who cares? Darcy and Bingley are so powerfully respectable, it would overpower any gossip about them 'way up north.
This is such a great video to learn from omg! Can't tell if it's the video or something on my end but the audio seems just slightly out of sync with the speaker.
This is what stands out when reading Austin, she allows those that made mistakes when falling in love to have her pen redeem them, if not to a higher level of glorified marriage, at least to a neutral position where the reader can close their chapter and focus on the main characters finding love at last. This resolution affords us the ability to say that not all bad horses get whipped. As she says, keep it light and bright. She forgives the characters as good benevolent creators should and thus teaches us that whipping polls should not replace Maypoles.
I absolutely love your close reading videos. I’m trying to get my teenage daughter to read Jane Austin and it would be great is you did a series aimed at the younger mob.
Thank you for the great analysis. It reminds me of your other video about Lizzy's eagerness to hear about Mr Darcy from Mr Wickham, where she is part of the gossips. And I came to wonder if that also contributes to reading this passage as gossiping is harmful (for all involved)...
I’d read P&P many times before I realised what coming upon the town meant. It was only when I read Hallie Rubenhold’s book on the Covent Garden ladies that I understood and then the next time I read P&P thought wow those gossips are worse than I’d realised. The Covent Garden ladies definitely gives an insight into what could have happened to Lydia had Mr Darcy not stepped in.
I don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing, but I have the video version of Pride & Prejudice practically memorized by now (the Colin Firth version!), so I instantly visualize Lady Catherine de Bourgh in high dudgeon saying, "I know it ALL!" It would require some fortitude to stand up to her, knowing that the truth is indeed disgraceful.
I actually would be pretty frustrated that Lydia got off without punishment and she was blissfully unaware of her behavior, even bragging about it to others. I didn't realize that she would be punished in other ways for the time (social isolation and gossip). I also didn't know and find it super interesting that Jane Austen didn't punish Lydia because she felt the society was too harsh and wanted a lighter novel. That's actually pretty admirable and helps me understand the story more. Great video!
Thank you (again!) Octavia! It amuses me how society then, as now, revelled in the misfortune of others. People have always loved to be scandalised ...... so long it isn't too close to home!
I absolutely adore this paragraph, because it's such an accurate, concise and witty criticism, not only of her own society, but of people and communities in general. And it's one of the things that makes Austen such a special writer - the communities and people she describes are so timeless - the love of scandal, the neighbourhood gossips etc. We've all encountered people like that who relish in the misfortune of others and regard it as entertainment.
I loved this video! I've only read translations of P&P in my own language, and now I know none of those translations did justice to the nuances of Jane Austen's text here.
Your description of the 'spiteful old ladies' reminds me of those who will hear that a woman's pregnant and immediately- especially if she's a first timer- dig up all the worst pregnancy/labour/cot death stories they can think of. They're not interested in the woman's welfare, or giving her any advice, they just want to chew over old gossip.
Now they all write opinion columns,they spent the 1960s and 1970s advising people to "if it feels good do it" and now they're dissing and getting jailed all the ones who took their advice.
I am grateful that you have used the old dictionaries and, as a non-native speaker, have given me a better understanding of the intricacies of the language, as well as contemporary understanding and circumstances, and finally the irony Austen is so famous for.
Just wanted to say thank you for your perspectives & historical analyses! I've had a few of your videos saved in my Watch Later for a while now & finally had some time to enjoy them! Cheers 🩷🩷
When you know all the jokes and all the innuendos. And then Dr. Cox tells you...well, actually, this means this..... Oh myyyy! Does it? Tell me more...😉😁😁
I always figured the “secluded to a farm house” meant that she was probably pregnant and secluded to conceal the pregnancy. I believe she used a similar wording in sense and sensibility.
“Let other pens dwell upon guilt and misery…” may be one of my many favourite Jane Austen quotes along with the words from Mansfield Park: “…We have all a better guide in ourselves, if we would attend to it, than any other person can be…” It tells me how much she was aligned with the universe in spirit and as inspired, groundbreaking and wonderful as her work is that’s no surprise. It’s how consciousness is raised with each new generation. 💖✨
@@007nadineLWe would know. The circles she moved in were too gossip-based for such a thing to be kept secret. And she certainly never got pregnant, which was next to impossible to avoid back then.
Elizabeth and pretty much everyone else in the Bennett family understood the ramifications of courtship rules and the consequences of breaking them. Did Lydia truly not understand what would happen or do you think she simply did not care? I know its been mentioned repeatedly of her being a silly girl, but I have a hard time believing she was that ignorant of societal rules.
I think it's meant to be a severe reflection on the Bennet's parenting here - Lydia has never really had the 'facts of life' properly explained to her, and she's not clever enough to work it out on her own like Jane and Elizabeth or even Mary. Again, their parents may have spent more time with their older children before they got discouraged by the lack of a son, and now Mrs Bennett is trying to relive her own foolish youth through her younger daughters until she can get the greater vicarious pleasure of seeing them married, and Mr Bennett has given up altogether. After Lizzie, he seems to have had no more concern for or interest in the upbringing of his younger daughters - Mary learned her morals from books. As a teacher, I would say a fifteen-year-old is QUITE capable of understanding the consequences of serious decisions, but she usually needs a responsible adult to explain it to her first and answer her honest questions without making fun of her (this goes for boys too, of course). Some people are smart enough to work it out on their own or humble enough to learn from experience, but on the whole I would say a large percentage of people are like Lydia: if you are ignorant of how the world/your society works at fifteen and no one helps you to learn then, you will be just as ignorant and unrealistic at 40.
If you like the work I do, then you can support it here:
www.paypal.com/donate?hosted_button_id=D8LSKGJP2NL4N
Thank you very much indeed for watching my channel.
Hi Dr. Cox -- I was re-reading Mansfield Park when something perhaps discordant (?) caught my attention. Fanny Price refused to give guidance to Henry Crawford's behavior when he requested it from her, but Fanny gave guidance to her sister Susan's behavior when she thought it would be an advantage to Susan. Fanny also seemed happy with Edmund's guidance towards herself growing up, and thought well of him for giving Tom Bertram guidance when he is recovering / in his sickbed. I think she must admire the practice in general, despite what she told Henry. I don't think Fanny is the sort of character who would just say something convenient to get someone to leave her be, even if that someone is as bothersome as Henry. What makes instructing Henry so different?
Would you consider creating a "paid subscriber" list that didn't have any advertisements? I often listen while I'm painting, so it's hard to push the skip button (I realize I could subscribe to UA-cam overall as well, and I might eventually do that) but I'm also a paid subscriber on another channel which is why I wondered.
@@mjrose9329 I think that Fanny knows that he is only flirting and is being insincere. She is refusing to be drawn into an intimate and inappropriate conversation with someone whom (or is it "who"?) she cannot bluntly tell to "Buzz off, buster." She does not like or respect Mr. Crawford; she clearly sees his real character. Susan, Edmund, and Tom are beloved family members and it is her right and her duty to help them with her wisdom. Mr. Crawford is a morally corrupt stranger (and a very real and powerful threat to her happiness) and has no such right. She is fighting to remain unmarried to him while not completely alienating her domineering relatives upon whom she and her brothers and sisters are dependent. I think.
Hello Dr. Cox ,thank you for your very enjoyable videos. I wonder if you could do one on why Mr Walter Elliot sets his sights on Anne Elliot and not Elizabeth. Elizabeth would seem the obvious choice being her father's favourite and gullible. Are there any clues in the novel that could answer this question?
@@mjrose9329 aa
From my modern perspective I think I'd be more inclined to gossip about the lack of judgement of the Bennet parents. It always seemed such a negligent decision to me to let a teenage girl go to Brighton with the Fosters who are neither relatives nor close family friends. What did they expect would happen?
I'm sure there were some smug gossips about the Bennet's failures as parents.
Yeah, across history to this day 15 yo are extremely dumb. I know I was
I agree
Austen certainly blames them: she clearly faults Mrs. Bennet for flagrantly encouraging Lydia's mad obsession with men in uniform, and Mr. Bennet for not checking these excesses, and for basically abdicating his responsibility as the head of the family purely for his own selfish convenience, because he just doesn't want the hassle of crossing the will of his wife and daughters, even for their safety and well-being. Elizabeth actually pleads with him, to no avail against the wailing of her mother and sister, to prevent Lydia from going to Brighton---a town with a pretty racy reputation at the time thanks to the Prince Regent and his set, which Austen's readers would have recognized. I imagine it was the last place a respectable young lady without proper supervision should have been seen!
@@marijeangalloway1560 Agreed. Austen even has Mr. Bennett blaming himself. When he returns from searching for Lydia and Wickham in London and Lizzy sympathetically speaks of how much suffering he had endured, he says, "Say nothing of that. It is my own fault, and I ought to feel it."
Light and bright as it is, Pride and Prejudice conveys the precarious situation that women of that class and era where in so well.
Nothing's changed really.
I had never thought about the fact that Lady Catherine didn't know how Lydia and Wickham's marriage had been "patched up" - you made such a good point about how she's completely in the dark about Darcy's involvement in it. What's even funnier is that she's forbidding them from getting engaged without knowing he already has proposed unsuccessfully!
She probably only heard about it from Mr. Collins and only knew as much as he did. He’s not the type to be discreet. Plus it made him relieved that Elizabeth refused him.
@@janedoll3237 How would that make him "relieved that Elizabeth refused him?"
@@harringt100
“They agree with me in apprehending that this false step in one daughter will be injurious to the fortunes of all the others; for who, as Lady Catherine herself condescendingly says, will connect themselves with such a family? And this consideration leads me moreover to reflect, with augmented satisfaction, on a certain event of last November; for had it been otherwise, I must have been involved in all your sorrow and disgrace.”
Chapter 48
@@janedoll3237 correct the November event is Elizabeth refusing Mr collins.
Instead he is only in the situation of being the cousin of this Infamous woman who has done this terrible thing. Instead of her brother by marriage, if Elizabeth had accepted him.
If Elizabeth had married Mr Collins it would have been Mr Collins's responsibility to leave his parish and go after Lydia and try to help Mr Bennett recover her in order to avoid Scandal himself for not even trying. But only being a cousin he would not have the same responsibility.
@@janedoll3237 Ah, I got it. It _has_ been a minute since I read P&P.
Goes to show how lucky Lydia was while still getting in a terrible situation. She may be married to Wickham, but at least she's still part of society and has access to all it's benefits.
Exactly,that's the point. And to be honest they seem made for each other!
@@janebaker966 i think she was just a silly girl who read too many novels about love snd romance and was not hard headed and rational enough. Her relatives should have been hard headed and rational for her.
@@eastlynburkholder3559she could have ruined the futures of not only herself but of her sisters too: each of them at this point have no future outside poverty without making a good marriage. Lydia continues to be unabashed and self satisfied after her saving. She is incredibly selfish.
I do agree though that she is terribly young and suffers from some pretty poor and neglectful parenting.
@@eastlynburkholder3559No, that was Catherine Morland. Lydia Bennet has probably never read a single book willingly, disregarding it as an activity more suited for her sister Mary
Lydia was like her mother, stupid, greedy to the bones, selfish enough to throw everyone under the bus for her own interest
Interesting to know what “Coming upon the town” actually meant! And the “good-natured wishes” certainly sounds rather tongue-in-cheek!
Yes, _very_ tongue-in-cheek!
I assumed that the most likely outcome for Lydia was prostitution, but was always curious about the phrase "come upon the town." Thanks for the explanation.
Although I had caught before in Austen the fates of women who did not conform to the rules ("dying in a poorhouse," "sinking into sin") and had gathered it had to do with being forced into prostitution, I had no idea this phrase ("coming upon the town") was a fairly explicit reference to the same thing. The layer of horror in Austen -- not due to her going for that, but due to how women and "lower" people were treated as a matter of course -- is omnipresent. I'm glad she at least called out the spite of it. I don't know what else she could have done. It seems to me she was partly warning young women of what the landscape really looked like for them.
I always thought it meant that they would have preferred her come back to town unmarried, because it would be more fun to gossip about. Loved finding out about what this phrase actually meant
@@Cat_Woods No, I don't think anyone at that time was under any illusions about women going outside social norms. Austen was just pointing out the hypocrisy in society. The gossips pretended to be saddened by Lydia's misadventure, but were actually delighted in discussing it. And of course were disappointed by the somewhat happy resolution.
Another aspect of the gossips of Meryton is that of class. The Bennets are the gentry of the area. People are only too happy to hear about the travails and tragedies of the upper classes. "Those Longbourne girls thought they were little princesses, romping around the town, catching every young man's eye, buying up all the hats. They're not so much."
Even today we spiteful common folk love to hear about the trials (sometimes literal trials) of movie stars and pop idols, the closest we Yanks have to a nobility. It's sad but almost universal.
200 years ago we were no different than today in our dealings with folk. That is the beauty of Austen's scholarship. Go back further to Shakespeare; same applies. Plato and the Greek texts all have the same nuances.
They were a member of the gentry, but not the only family in that category.
I was born in 1962 in a village in the Yorkshire Dales. Village gossips saw themselves as the defenders of morality, morality, that is, as defined by them. Objectively, spite and envy were often the main motivation behind their moral crusade against a victim, and cruelty was the deserved punishment. It seems that very little changed regarding the power of the village gossips between 18th century rural Hertfordshire and 20th century rural Yorkshire.
Jane Austen was remarkably open about the types of "scandalous" behavior that happened in her level of society. People think of her as so "proper" and of course she was, but there is plenty of adultery, fornication and illegitimacy in her books. Then as now, appearance was all.
@@londongael414 😅
Mrs. Jennings in "S & S", usually generous and warm-hearted, callously says of marriage to Colonel Brandon: "Two thousand a year without debt or drawback --- except the little love-child, indeed; aye, I had forgot her, but she may be 'prenticed out at a small cost."
@@tedmccarthy4761 I totally missed that
There is a lot more sex in those 19th C novels than most people realise,mainly as theyve not read them.
Even Dickens! I find Trollope engagingly racy and I like him more because he is pretty kind to ugly old spinsters unlike Dickens and Thackeray. Trollope sort of recognises that old spinsters have got a bit of life in em and he quite likes em. But to return to my point they used long winded sentences, they used what I'd term code words and phrases so most people knew what they were saying but if you didn't know it wouldn't harm you. Like how kids laugh at Carry On films before they understand the double entendres because Kenneth Williams,Hattie Jacques,Sid James et al are inherently funny in Carry On mode
@@h-di4qd One or two paragraphs of "Sense and Sensibility" had to be revised for the second edition because of the reference to "natural daughter".
When you think about it, you can almost imagine the gossips of the village quickly moving on from Lydia to covertly criticising the Bennet family as a whole. When Lizzy expresses concern about Lydia being allowed to go to Brighton in Chapter 42, Mr. Bennet (sort of naively) remarks that "Wherever you and Jane are known, you must be respected and valued; and you will not appear to less advantage for having a couple of -- or I may say, three -- very silly sisters", and I like to imagine that he is right in the sense that the people of Meryton would continue to treat Jane and Lizzy with respect, but I can also picture the gossips moving on from "Did you hear this about Lydia Bennet?" to "Well, are you really surprised? My nephew's a stable hand at Netherfield and he told me Mary Bennet showed herself up at Mr. Bingley's ball by playing the piano before she was invited to - and her singing was dreadful!" to "I heard that clergyman cousin of theirs made some ridiculous, boring speech immediately afterwards, you know that one who married the eldest Miss Lucas?" and "Why didn't Mr. Bennet stop them? He's the head of the family" to "You know him, he never disciplines those girls; he just laughs at the stupid things they do!" and "It makes you wonder just how close Lydia was to those militia, doesn't it?" They'd have something to talk about for weeks there, ripping the whole family to shreds in the process . . .
It has always seemed to me that Wickham's posting at Newcastle is a sort of banishment. One far more distant than any farm and far more fraught with possibilities for Lydia's ultimate misery. This is not Jane Austen being spiteful or moralistic. She is being clear-eyed about the chances for happiness for Lydia and Wickham's marriage.
That's a great point. And Mrs Bennet seems to have thought so too - the text in relation to her even uses the word "banish": "And their mother had the satisfaction of knowing that she would be able to show her married daughter in the neighbourhood before she was banished to the North" (ch.50).
@@DrOctaviaCox @
@@londongael414 In the last chapter that's exactly what Jane Austen says: Lydia is always scrounging money from Lizzy, she and Wickham are always moving from place to place trying to save money, and outstaying their welcome with the Bingleys, and Wickham's affection for Lydia "soon sank into indifference". He's off carousing in London or Bath (subsidized by Darcy for Elizabeth's sake) while Lydia visits Pemberley, so she is trapped in a loveless marriage with a wastrel -everything the Meryton gossips could desire, had they only known it!
@@londongael414 I love the phrase you use here, saying that Lydia "resists misery." I always interpreted Lydia's unabashed attitude in the wake of the scandal as evidence not of mere naivete, but an indomitable spirit - an outright refusal to be ground down even a little bit or to even acknowledge the situation's gravity (much to Lizzy's irritation). Austen could not have known that Napoleon would escape and then there would be the hundred days and the epic battle at Waterloo, but, with the benefit of hindsight, I imagine Lydia following the drum to the continent with her dashing officer husband, dancing at Lady Richmond's famous ball (where, indeed, other infamous parties, like Caro Lamb, would be in attendance), wrangling what money and influence she could out of her better-placed sisters, showing off Wickham's war medals, naming her children after their rich aunts and uncles (godparents, certainly), and generally doing a bit of all right for herself on the fringes of society. I always loved the fact that Austen refused to condemn Lydia to a terrible fate and, instead, let her be more or less ok. I actually thought we saw glimpses of her matrimonial future in the marriage of her own parents, whose early affection, born of Mrs. Bennet's reputed beauty, had long sunk into seeming indifference. It would be a tolerable enough existence, surely, and I am glad that Lydia escaped any more serious consequence. She was, after all, only a teenager.
@@londongael414 Oh, Becky Sharpe! I love her. I sort of wish Becky and Lydia and Wickham could meet on the continent and get into scrapes. I guess Rawdon can come, too. I know that Austen's ending for the Wickhams was less spectacular than that - just scraping by on family charity, whatever spark there was long extinguished - but she didn't know Waterloo was coming!
I think we tend to forget, when reading such escapist novels, or watching the movies made of these novels, about the reason it was so important for young ladies not to stray outside the socially accepted lines. Disgrace meant a life of misery, or even death, and not marrying meant a life of degradation and poverty. Life was very unkind to most women in Jane Austin's day! Thank you for an enjoyable listen!
Sadly it often still does even when the person has done nothing actually wrong.
This is why I have little respect for so called historical fiction that really is just modern sensibilities in costume. In a nutshell, Bridgerton.
@@vorkosigrrl6047 I noticed that the "good" doctors in those shows weirdly refuse to use the standard medical treatments of their day (none of them use leeches or cupping or bleeding, for example), and yet still rise to the top of their profession.
Not for me, that was always the interesting part. JA was a savage. Read the other books. The Bennet girl off easy.
@@vorkosigrrl6047 The Bridgerton novels had a lot more focus on the acceptable mores of the Regency period and those mores formed importantance to the plots in the novels. The Bridgerton Netflix series has changed many of these, which I think detracts from the series' plots. There seems to be a significant cancel culture in current times to try to cast shame and negativity on the mores of previous times, rather than understand them, even though we might not agree with them now.
As a french speaker, I had no recollection of such a harsh comment. I think the subtility of the real meaning of « coming upon the town » was lost in translation in the french versions, I’ve checked several and it was either edited out or translated by « coming back to her father’s home ». It’s a shame, because I like this glimpse into the dark and vicious nature of people who present themselves as respectable.
Honestly, I think the English meaning is also lost on most modern-day readers. I certainly had no recollection of a reference to prostitution either. Very interesting to know about the French translation too!
what would the eary 19thc french equivalent be?
@@astrothsknot It would be quite difficult to know exactly what expression would be in use at that time, among that socio-economic class, and in the countryside.
If I were to try and translate it, I would probably have the ladies say that Lydia should have joined a « maison », which means « house » but is also a reference to a « maison close », a brothel, as they had been legalized few years prior in Paris and were already multiplying. It could also been interpreted as meaning the household of a wealthy family (implying working as a servant).
In any language, it would take a really sharp translator to not miss out that expression.
@@javierwolfle3593 it reminds me about that translation of ancient texts meme and how we just don't understand the oldest written joke, because it references a way of life that no longer exists.
And some readers are shocked that Collins (a cleric) proposed such harsh treatment of Lydia. That was the way people thought.
It didn't sound like he found it funny, at least.
Being a non-native speaker, I had no idea what "coming upon the town" meant. You have to wonder how sinister it is that good people of Meriton, who probably knew Lydia as a child and saw her grow up, treated what would've been a certain tragedy for her and her family as some celebrity drama. Austen was much more ruthless in her honest observations than first meets the eye.
I had no idea what “coming upon the “town” meant. I assumed it meant returning home as a single girl, no husband, in shame, and that she would then be shunned from polite society. Did it never happen that girls who had “misadventures” were taken back in by their families?
Thanks for the Illuminating video.
It's my pleasure, Vorkosigrrl.
I'm sure that it _did_ happen, but it must not _be seen_ to have happened. It mustn't get out, in other words. Mary Crawford in _Mansfield Park_ for example is more concerned about keeping the rumour of Mrs Rushworth and Henry Crawford secret than anything else: "Say not a word of it; hear nothing, surmise nothing, whisper nothing till I write again. I am sure it will be all hushed up", she writes to Fanny Price (ch.46).
Lydia is taken back in by her family - once she is Mrs Wickham, at least. Mr Bennet claims "Into _one_ house in this neighbourhood they shall never have admittance. I will not encourage the impudence of either, by receiving them at Longbourn. A long dispute [with Mrs Bennet] followed this declaration; but Mr. Bennet was firm" (ch.50). Not that firm! Jane and Elizabeth persuade him out of it:
"His daughter’s request, for such it might be considered, of being admitted into her family again ... received at first an absolute negative. But Jane and Elizabeth, who agreed in wishing, for the sake of their sister’s feelings and consequence, that she should be noticed on her marriage by her parents, urged him so earnestly yet so rationally and so mildly, to receive her and her husband at Longbourn, as soon as they were married, that he was prevailed on to think as they thought, and act as they wished."
@@DrOctaviaCox And yet, once Lydia returns and her display and lack of consciousness of her 'debacle' makes me wonder, did Austin mean for Lydia to really not know she had acted outside of society's rules or was this a case of Lydia behaving in what we now call cognitive dissonance (the way of Mrs. Bennet's portrayal)?
Your videos are so enjoyable 😃
Ironically, in the future, Lydia would have happily become one of those spiteful gossips as she had already proven when she was talking about the young heiress who had turned Wickham down.
I've read of employers who took their servant girls back after they had 'got into trouble,' but it was always carefully hushed up so no one knew they kept an 'indiscreet' maidservant - not that the girl herself would have wanted anyone to know! But the level of devotion often expressed by such servants to employers who had 'saved them from disgrace' seems to intimate they hadn't expected it. Or there was a sort of double standard: it may have been considered that the right thing for an employer to do was take the girl back, but no one else would hire her if they didn't!
@@cmm5542 Could also be it was the employer or someone they knew that was the cause of the “trouble.” :/
I find it interesting that P&P doesn’t fall heavily on condemning Lydia. Yes she is not bright, yes she was easy prey, but the fault of that is laid at her parents’ feet, even by Lizzie who wishes her father would have worked to counteract their mother’s carelessness about their upbringing, much as she loves her father. Lydia was 15-16 in the novel, IIRC. Hormones running high, the brain still developing, emotions always at max-and then for her mother to indulge it all and her father just to ignore or even mock her instead of making sure she was well-educated and had things to do besides run after the officers.
And there’s shade thrown on Wickham too, who nearly managed to get Miss Darcy, as well-educated and accomplished as she was, to elope with him. And even with his character so thoroughly exposed, he thought he could still make a marriage alliance to solve his money problems, all while continuing to live with Lydia. I don’t know if that’s just his desperation because of his debts or what.
And this all really shows Darcy’s character to actually help the man he despises, and a girl who is so careless, both of whom society would condemn to worse fates, all without the certainty that Lizzie would ever change her mind about him. He doesn’t even want Lizzie to be told. It’s just really magnificent.
Your delight in "unpicking" with surgical precision the famous line about Lydia "Coming upon the town" is almost fiendish and had me completely in stitches.
Neither man nor woman is perfectible nor do they much change, and especially in the essentials.
Thank you for lifting my spirits.
I always imagined Lydia's potential fate of being 'secluded in some distant farmhouse' to allude to her becoming pregnant by Wickham, but as the comparison with Maria Rushworth (nee Bertram) makes clear, it was a likely outcome even without a pregnancy to cover up. As Mary Bennet says, in those days 'a woman's reputation is no less brittle than it is beautiful...!' I do wonder however what would have happened to the young women not of the gentry class who were seduced by Wickham, who would not have a Darcy coming to their rescue to patch things up. Would they also end up 'on the town' or would less strict standards be brought to bear on them?
Well, yes, indeed. I suppose that Lydia did at least have Mr Gardiner as a support too. And if absolutely necessarily, then Mr Bennet would presumably have been compelled to do something, if only to protect his other daughters' "brittle" reputations. Mary Wollstonecraft had her first daughter, Fanny Imlay, while she was unmarried - although she and the man in question (Gilbert Imlay) did pretend to have been married. Apart from the very rich who (then as now!) could pretty much get away with anything, I think the pressure to be 'respectable' ran very deep through much of society.
I always thought so, too - particularly given how close “secluded” is to “confined.”
That’s always how I read it. That’s what happened when I was a teen - a girl would suddenly go stay with her aunt in the country, or if her folks were rich, to somewhere vague and rural in Europe. A year later she’d be back, oddly changed (of course she was; a year brings a lot of changes at that age no matter what) and oh the gossip would fly. Austen’s phrase so neatly matched those events that it never occurred to me the seclusion was permanent or that she had been banished, as opposed to hiding in seclusion.
It is a reference to an out of wedlock pregnancy, you are correct!
Well, Fantine in Les Miserables WAS a poor woman who got pregnant out of wedlock.
When her lover left her, she was forced to move out of the place she lived in and had to hide the fact that she was an unmarried mother, lying and saying that she was a widow when asked why she had a child. She was even manipulated by the Tenardiers (the family who was taking care of her daughter) into giving them more money when they found out her child was illegitimate.
Unlike in the musical, she was NOT fired from her job because of her situation. Though then again, unlike in the musical, neither her coworkers nor her boss ever found out about her even being a mother. Yet even if there was no risk of her losing her job, if word got out, she and her daughter would still become outcasts, which is why she kept it all hidden.
We need a psychologist to analyze Mr. Bennett. His joke about making sport for their neighbors even though the rest of the family has been mortified by (and socially damaged by) Lydia is yet ANOTHER time that he showed a complete lack of empathy for the family he is supposed to love.
I sometimes think he uses it a defense mechanism. What he says to Lizzy about Lydia when things aren't going well shows he knows he effed up.
I think it was just an observation that the neighbors gossip. He wasn’t condoning that they gossip.
Mr. Bennett has always fascinated me. He is married to a stupid woman whom he clearly despises - perhaps he was attracted to her when she was young and pretty and realised his disastrous mistake too late. He is lazy, he'd rather sit reading in his book room than do anything or make any decision. He clearly loves his two eldest daughters but he does nothing to check his wife's behaviour or that of the three youngest daughters. It's an awful picture of someone who made a bad marriage himself and now simply withdraws.
“It would have been better for conversation…” ie “gossip” 🤦♀️ the narrator puts that very delicately….
The amazing thing about Lydia is her total lack of awareness about how bad her situation is. I wonder how long it would take her to realize it? Probably when she noticed the pattern of being snubbed at balls…
Lydia's reputation would of course been cleansed or perhaps erased by Darcy's marriage to Elizabeth, and secondarily, by Bingley's to Jane. That's two status families accepting/bringing in the recently tainted Bennets. Bingley doing so on his own would not have been enough really, because he's of merchant wealth. Although Lydia could use the comfort of that wealth to soothe the wounds. But Darcy is beyond reproach. If Darcy accepts the Bennets then a family scandal can be endured or even re-interpreted. Darcy knows this and Caroline Bingley would grasp it too. Now Darcy owes it to them, but lots of powerful men have failed in what they owed. So a shout out to Mr Darcy, for rescuing Lydia's social position. Ironically, rescuing Wickham's too, which Darcy wouldn't want.
Re the "other pens".
It's worth noting that later nineteenth century novelists, especially Dickens and the Brontes DID dwell on the guilt and punishment of their less moral characters. Do you think that any other Nineteenth Century writer would have allowed Lucy Steele Ferrars to have succeeded?
For me, Austen's moral ambiguity is something that has always attracted me to her writing.
I think you'd like Anne Bronte, if you've only read Charlotte and Emily
@@BlackCanary87 The Tennant of Wildfell Hall is a favorite of mine, and as I said above, Anne doesn't hesitate to punish her less than morally perfect characters!
It's been some time since I read "Pride" but I believe that Austen later addresses Lydia's subsequent life as being envious of her sisters' good fortunes in marrying rich men; Lydia never realizes what she's done to herself by marrying Wickham. It's interesting that Austen provides the conventional moral note to Lydia's story, yet seems to dismiss her as a fool, rather than immoral. Or is she saying that Lydia can't admit her folly to herself and the world at large? The Wickhams are forced to ask for regular financial help, "gifts", from both her well-off sisters in order to survive, which likely would make Lydia deny her predicament, our of pride. I really enjoy your informed reading of the text!
or perhaps she's
Wonderful reading, really enjoyed it. I missed the “coming on the town” thing, but remember thinking how matter of fact it was in “Mansfield Park”, my favourite Jane Austen novel, that Sir Thomas could not even think of inflicting such an indignity on the neighbourhood as having Maria come back home after her affair. I’m always amazed at how Jane Austen, in novel after novel, uses her brilliant talent to try and make the world a little kinder to women. When I read her novels with my students (I’m a independent private teacher), I try to point out to them that she is a rare example of a true champion of women. Her word is quite literally deed.
Excellent!
I had previously been ignorant of the meaning of "on the town." Thanks for such a clear close reading.
Reading Pride and Prejudice in my youth was the first time l really appreciated the beauty of language.
Thank you for explaining this! I love Jane Austen but so much of the subtlety of her writing is lost to modern readers, as most of us are not familiar with how expressions and language was used by then.
It's my pleasure, Sillyme. I'm glad that knowing a little more of these details helps your appreciation of the marvellous JA!
An annotated version of Pride and Prejudice helps with that.
Wow! I had no idea 'come upon the town' was such a euphemism. It totally changes the meaning of that sentence. I had always thought it meant that the gossips would have been happier if Lydia was there in town so they could insult her behind her back more directly.
Two thoughts: I have always seen Jane Austen as a kind of sociologist, and her novels as thought experiments. Given a particular set of circumstances, e.g., one of five sisters with no inheritance, but with a certain social standing, what options would a young lady (young women of her own social class) have, and what forces would be in play? In Pride and Prejudice, the different possibilities are explored in the person of each sister.
The second thought has to do with the gossips of Meryton. The Bennets are not extremely wealthy, but they are among a small group of leading families in the area. I think the implication is that the gossips of Meryton are a notch below the Bennets socially, and the joy they take in Lydia's apparent downfall has an element of envy along with satisfaction that people they have had to look up to were now brought down, which raises their own standing, at least in their own eyes.
Yes, the gossips were of lower social rank than the Bennets. Indeed, Mr Bennet's annual income of £2,000 would have dwarfed the incomes of almost everyone in Meryton.
We actually see all of your options in pride and prejudice play out. Your options were a rich man (Darcy) who didn't need to marry an inheritance or connections; a rich man who needs your connections (Bingley, who is middle class btw, whose marriage to Jane does a lot in establishing his rep for making the jump to gentry providing he fully buys a house), a gentleman in clergy ( Mr. Collins, who aside from his inheritance, would be seen as a proper choice), and an officer (seen with Wickham and even Colonel Fitzwilliam).
Thank you. That was a very interesting analysis. I had often wondered how that chapter read in the views of the time. The old word 'ruined' applies here. If, indeed, Mr. Darcy had not come to her rescue, Lydia could never have gone back home; she could never have been seen publicly with her sisters. She could never have openly visited her parents and Lydia's apparent lack of understanding of that shocks her family when she does return to them married.
Yeah Maria in Mansfield Park does end up in a farmhouse in the country
I've often wondered with a character like Wickam, whether he might of ended up " pimping" Lydia out later on as a source of money to feed his gambling habit. It was never his intention to marry her in the first place.
I can't quote, but I got the impression that was hinted between the lines.
I have wondered about that or him actually just abandoning her at some point ,disappearing on the Continent or United States.
With Elizabeth Darcy and Jane Bingley as her sisters? I doubt it. It would have been illegal and utterly immoral. He might have been willing to do it but he must have known Darcy and Bingley would never allow their sister in law to be that badly mistreated.
Lydia is kind of pimped out anyway even if not physically because her connection to Jane and Elizabeth is exploited for whatever money he can get out of them.
The book says something like, with the bingleys they (Wickham and Lydia) frequently stayed so long that even Mr Bingley's Good Humor was overcome and he went so far as to talk of giving them a hint to be gone.
Access to the money sent to them from Elizabeth and Jane as well as Elizabeth saying that whenever they removed two new quarters either Jane or herself was sure of being applied to for some little assistance in discharging their bills.
He's basically using Lydia as an emotional manipulation device to get money from her sisters and their husbands which without spreading her legs is still a form of prostitution...
At least while she was staying with the bingleys she could be sure that Wickham wouldn't be pimping her out from their house because Bingley would have lost his s*** told Darcy and they would have murdered Mr Wickham and buried him somewhere convenient. Essentially the UK equivalent of an honor killing.
If she did sleep with other men it was probably only to get rid of Wickham's gambling debts. But the book is very much not clear and leaves it all to conjecture.
@@laurendearnley9595 I agree. Bingley might be gentle by nature. Darcy is warm under it all, but quite capable of making life either unpleasant or short, especially should his wife be enraged, as I suspect she would be.
love the clever comment about her future happiness being uncertain, not out of a wish to see Lydia punished at all but because it's a nod to Wickham's character
When I read "P&P," I knew exactly what the gossips were saying and meant as I live in South Georgia, USA, where "running off to get married" is still treated as a great scandal and sin by the old biddies. It seems to me that little has changed since Austen's day. The little old ladies still relish in discussing the shameful behaviour of young girls and are still privately disappointed if the girls do, indeed, actually marry the men with whom they've eloped (or if they marry later to men with enough sense to ignore the past). At the same time, girls who return from their adventures without husbands are often gossiped about so much that they, themselves, choose to go on long trips or enroll in distant schools just to escape the censure. The difference being, of course, that banishment is not permanent these days nor do most parents completely abandon their daughters so that they're forced into prostitution. Thank goodness for progress!
I have been surprised that many people do not recognize sarcasm in print. That she was being sarcastic was clear from her tone, but your elaboration on the historical meaning of phrases Austen uses makes the meaning even clearer. Thank you.
Lydia’s actions put the members of local society in a difficult position. If they invited her to events they might/would be seen to condone what they don’t approve of. I.e. running off unmarried with Wickham.
As I teenager I adored sitting with Jane Austen’s text and wondering as the nuances of her writing. Astonishing
Enjoying some of the comments here, on an excellent video. Yes, Lydia got off lightly, it seems, which is in the spirit of this novel and a reflection of the responsibility for her downfall being shared by her parents. One thing I haven't seen mentioned is the danger to Lydia (and any children of the marriage) of 'social diseases', given Wickham's past and his return to old habits, as mentioned in the final chapter.
Great job as usual, Dr Cox.
Upon reflection, I wonder to what extent the gossip was additionally fueled by Lydia's behavior even prior to meeting Wickham. Certainly the old ladies of Meryton had previously noticed how outrageous she could be and had already predicted the dire consequences. Perhaps they would have been slightly more compassionate toward another girl who hadn't made such displays.
Fascinating and well done. Now I am curious what conversations and circumstances Austen had to politely sit through. These days, people walk away from toxicity without apology. In Austen’s time of obligatory hospitality ( I assume this) I imagine she was astonished at cruel opinions. To our benefit, she was able to color her with what she observed.
Thank you, A D. Yes, I wonder that too. An awful lot, I imagine. There is something very truthful in the observation by the narrative voice in _Sense and Sensibility_ when confronted with ludicrous, objectionable company saying daft things (in this case Robert Ferrars): "Elinor agreed to it all, for she did not think he deserved the compliment of rational opposition" (ch.36).
It also makes me consider just how brutal 'polite' society actually was. The circles in which the Bennets move is supposed to be 'polite', the women are supposed to be genteel and elegant, and yet they know all about 'coming upon the town'... ?
That depends entirely on your situation and social stratum or position in the family/work environment. Even your age.
Based on Austen's letters, she was not herself above the occasional spiteful speculation.
@@g.moeller308 I agree with you. The infamous dead baby joke suggests that she would have been right in the midst of the discussions, though with more wit and subtlety perhaps than the common gossips.
@@DrOctaviaCox What a brilliant remark by Jane Austen: "Elinor agreed to it all for she did not think he deserved the compliment of rational opposition"....and how utterly true of having a small altercation with someone negligible as being not worth bothering about because the person was so far below one's intelligence as not to be in the same world. He would not even understand what you are talking about.
I absolutely love your close reading videos. You always unravel the text in ways that I never could and it's absolutely fascinating! Thank you!!
It's absolutely my pleasure. I'm so glad that you enjoy my videos. Thanks for watching.
Meryton didn't want anything in particular to happen to Lydia Bennet; they simply wanted grist for the rumor mill. They wanted something to gossip about, and Lydia provided that in spades. Lacking Lydia, they could just as well have gossiped about Caroline Bingly.
I really like that Jane Austen seems to be saying without actually saying that she is not going to sink down to those people’s levels.
Exactly - that she sees through the hypocrisy of such 'moralising'.
A lot of Austen is not changing the social standard per say, but rather shifting towards what should be proper for society. She doesn't deem on Charlotte for making a practical marriage, and even shows how a practical marriage can work out, but she also shows the other side of Lizzie who wants a love marriage and how that is a fine choice as well.
You are quite correct that the implication of "borne" is that the gossips would have been happier with bad news to communicate, but you miss out half the joke, as another meaning of "bear" is carry . Carrying news or bearing news was a common linguistic trope of the time, so it's a witty double meaning.
I think I would have hoped that Lydia's experience would have changed her, and that there would be hope of her growing up. I'm aware that there seemed to be no hope of that. I'm afraid my conversation with her would have been snarky, so, similar to Elizabeth's remarks.
Well, the 1811 edition of The Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue has just been added to my Amazon list, for inclusion in my collection of dictionaries.
It's really quite eye opening! - And fun in how ingenious some of the phrases are.
Do you also have the Dictionary of Obscure Sorrows?
@@maishaahmed915 I do not
@@mch12311969 It would be a worthy addition! They have a website with a lot of entries. It makes for a fun read!
I wonder how things actually would turn out for Lydia? It’s clear from wickam’s excessive eye rolling that he has no good regard of Lydia, but does she ever get it… does she ever see the impropriety of her actions and how they could have destroyed her sister’s chances of good marriages… or does she stay oblivious, like her mother?
My school's copy of Pride and Prejudice, which they kept on a shelf in my 5th grade class, has footnotes and explained the meaning of the phrase. My 10-year-old self was fascinated that the 'genteel' society talked about that kind of thing and was very proud I understood what an Adult BookTM was talking about.
The book says Wickham "meddled" with many of the tradesmen's daughters of Meryton. I have always assumed that meant having sex with them. IF that is the case, what would happen to these young women of lower social class than Lydia?
Very late reply, but due to the classism of the time, lower-class women would not be judged as harshly for an affair with a man above them in social standing. Aside from the power imbalance, actually getting someone 'above' you interested was seen as a bit of a triumph, a risky but perhaps worthwhile gamble on getting the higher-class guy to marry you. If he didn't, your parents would probably be annoyed it hadn't paid off (or for religious reasons if they were pious), but it was unlikely to prevent most guys of your own station from marrying you - you'd only slept with the guy for a rich present or social clout so it didn't count! And most lower-class jobs - shopgirl, servant, barmaid - expected 'lower morals' than in ladies. Unless you got pregnant (a financial liability) you wouldn't get fired for fooling around with the clientele! Might boost sales! (Yes, it was all very mercenary.)
I don’t think they were hoping for mere banishment. I read the desire to see Lydia secluded in a distant farmhouse as a wish that she is secluded there to hide the fact that she has born an illegitimate child. Think about how in sense and sensibility Colonel Brandon had to send away his ward to a distant farmhouse for her confinement
Maria in Mansfield Park gets sent to a farmhouse permanently
And Lydia and Wickham didn't get off easy- they WERE basically banished- to a regiment in the north and later, kept moving about in "quest of a cheap situation". He wanted a place at court, she wanted "Any place... of about three or four hundred a year." That kind of lifestyle couldn't have been easy, esp as they kept outspending their income.
True but if Lydia wasn’t married she really could’ve been punished
I live my life in the belief that Jane Austen would have been very proud of you, indeed. Anyone can nitpick to death what they don't like, so "close reading" what you do like must be the greatest possible compliment bestowed upon [Austen's] hard work! Surely, the best kind of reader for an author to have is the kind who enjoys their novels even after subjecting them to sincere scrutiny. Thanks again for sharing your analyses with us! =)
Aaaah... thank you again for such insight! I've read Pride & Prejudice countless times, and thanks to you, I understand more and more of its lovely subtleties.
You are most welcome, Tristou. A wonderful book! - so layered and textured - it's writing that keeps on giving.
Your breakdown of the nature of the Meryton gossips made me think of our modern social media communities. The malice, schadenfreude, judgement, and treatment of the misfortunes of others as entertainment is what we see now on Twitter and Facebook comments’ sections. Interesting that, although the structure of our communities has changed since Austen’s day, our nature is not very different.
Sometimes 'good news' is good because it is juicy and shocking, so it is good for shadenfruede reasons! Great video
The longer and deeper you take us into the world JA presents, the more grateful I am to you and to Jane. This opens up the human heart - our very own hearts - to contemplation, to honest evaluation. Thank you!
I read banishment to a distant farmhouse as referring to an illegitimate pregnancy.
I am a fairly new subscriber, and I just have to say I have spent the last few weeks bingeing your videos. I love your content, and my favorite videos are these longer analyses videos of classic novels. You have kept me company on many a car ride! Please keep up the amazing work. I watch every video from beginning to end. I love your insight and the fact that you bring to attention all these little details that many of us would otherwise miss. Thank you for taking the time to do what you do, Dr. Cox!
Welcome! And thank you so much for watching. I love all the little details too. The beauty of close reading, I think, is that it reveals so much more about what's going on in a text, and how much more complex it is technically, than one might realise from an initial reading.
@@DrOctaviaCox Absolutely agree, and it’s my pleasure to watch!
First, thank you for producing these wonderful examples of close reading. I teach high school English. You methodical examination of the meaning and significance of words and phrases is what I emphasize to my 9th graders, with whom I've shared these videos. Second, I have always read the reference to Lydia being hidden away at a farmhouse as a euphemism for an unwanted pregnancy. A girl who became pregnant out of wedlock would be sent away to a rural farmhouse until she delivered her baby, after which time, her child would be absorbed into the farm family or its workers. Depending on the young mother's relationship with her family, she may also remain with the yeomanry if cast off by her lover and her parents. Would this reading be valid?
Re: "Coming upon the town," I figured it was either what you mentioned, or that Lydia would be disowned by her family and forced to go to the workhouse. Though I suppose in that case it would be "coming upon the parish."
Either way, this points up the depth of the service Mr. Darcy does for the whole Bennet family in arranging Lydia's marriage with Wickham.
Bit of a shotgun wedding!
Well he wanted to stay in money and therefore he had to pretend to be a good husband to Lydia .
Lydia is so unpleasant, arrogant, and selfish that it is difficult to not wish that she suffer some consequences for her behavior. But in true Austen style, we see very clearly how the improper behavior of people effects those around them.
I think it is made clear that Lydia gets some reality check through the years. She ist living quite away from her family with a man that does not really care about her.
@@elsterslesehoehle True but she is largely oblivious to what any of that means. Like her mother.
@@darthlaurel That's true. The passages when she's telling Jane to walk behind her are especially hard to read. 🙈
She was only a very silly young girl with virtually no parental guidance.
Excellent textual analysis, as always.
Of course Lydia's banishment to an isolated farmhouse would have been the happiest alternative from the gossips' point of view. They would then be freed from the indignity of having constantly to meet and acknowledge as a married woman one whom they considered 'permanently tainted goods'.
As immature as Lydia appears to be she doesn't deserve her fate. Her entire family LET her down. down. Why didn't Jane or LIzzie help her.she was 15 or 16. Mary was ignored. The parents were really neglectful. Go off with a practical stranger and his child like wife. Badly done Bennets. She lived in misery with handouts from JANE and LIZZIE.
I read 'secluded from the world, in some distant farm house' as a place to go to give birth. Wasn't that common practice if you wanted to keep your pregnancy hidden? You'd go to a farm house, away from society, give birth, and pretend you had a long vacation? That would fit very well with the previous sentence. It's much more gossip if she was either a prostitute or had actually given birth to an illegitimate child.
this sort of analysis is why i LOVED English literature class at school, and why I miss it so desperately as an adult.
Wonderful videos! Thank you! 💕
Jane Austen is my hero and in fact my inspiration to write romance. I would never have become a published novelist but for Ms. Austen and I still study every word she writes to help me become a better writer. And thank you for bringing her works to life for us all.
I've always appreciated Austen's gentler approach to to the "dangers" that any young woman could likely face unless they were absolutely locked up. I'm happy to see that recognized here.
Great video! I always wondered if the older ladies were especially hash on Lydia since she's probably been disrespectful to most of them at least once. I can't imagine Lydia sitting patiently listening to an older person's advice, no matter how well-meaning! Also your curtains are lovely!
Great discussion. I take issue on just one point, the common meaning of “borne” was just carried, as in borne by the wind, The good news was carried through the town. Which is not to say that Austin didn’t choose the word to hint at darker meanings besides.
That was one vicious paragraph! What an indictment of the "spiteful old ladies of Meryton".
Very impressive writing.
I really enjoy your mini Austen seminars. They provide great historical and cultural insight to beloved stories.
I hadn't thought of it, but Mr. Bennett's words show just how callous his attitude was toward his daughter.
I think by "happiest alternative" they mean that such karmic retributions would have made _them_ happy.
Love your insight on classic novels. After my mother died of Covid more time to choose interests. Love watercolour painting and analysing English Lit. Pride and prejudice was my mother's 😍
What I enjoy about your discussions, is that it makes me appreciate Jane Austen genius so much more! Thank you?
Most likely, Lydia and Wickham will both have affairs, but since they live so far away, who cares? Darcy and Bingley are so powerfully respectable, it would overpower any gossip about them 'way up north.
This is such a great video to learn from omg!
Can't tell if it's the video or something on my end but the audio seems just slightly out of sync with the speaker.
This is what stands out when reading Austin, she allows those that made mistakes when falling in love to have her pen redeem them, if not to a higher level of glorified marriage, at least to a neutral position where the reader can close their chapter and focus on the main characters finding love at last. This resolution affords us the ability to say that not all bad horses get whipped. As she says, keep it light and bright. She forgives the characters as good benevolent creators should and thus teaches us that whipping polls should not replace Maypoles.
I absolutely love your close reading videos. I’m trying to get my teenage daughter to read Jane Austin and it would be great is you did a series aimed at the younger mob.
Hearing everything..
1. Thank you for such wonderful societal explanations
2. Thankfully I'm alive today, not in those old times 😅
I love Dr. Cox!
Thank you for the great analysis. It reminds me of your other video about Lizzy's eagerness to hear about Mr Darcy from Mr Wickham, where she is part of the gossips.
And I came to wonder if that also contributes to reading this passage as gossiping is harmful (for all involved)...
I’d read P&P many times before I realised what coming upon the town meant. It was only when I read Hallie Rubenhold’s book on the Covent Garden ladies that I understood and then the next time I read P&P thought wow those gossips are worse than I’d realised. The Covent Garden ladies definitely gives an insight into what could have happened to Lydia had Mr Darcy not stepped in.
I don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing, but I have the video version of Pride & Prejudice practically memorized by now (the Colin Firth version!), so I instantly visualize Lady Catherine de Bourgh in high dudgeon saying, "I know it ALL!" It would require some fortitude to stand up to her, knowing that the truth is indeed disgraceful.
I love the novel and I love your interpretations- it adds so much
I actually would be pretty frustrated that Lydia got off without punishment and she was blissfully unaware of her behavior, even bragging about it to others. I didn't realize that she would be punished in other ways for the time (social isolation and gossip). I also didn't know and find it super interesting that Jane Austen didn't punish Lydia because she felt the society was too harsh and wanted a lighter novel. That's actually pretty admirable and helps me understand the story more. Great video!
Yeah Mansfield Park is a darker novel in what happens to Maria
Found your channel today, read about your new opportunity in education today, godspeed Dr.
Cox
Thank you (again!) Octavia! It amuses me how society then, as now, revelled in the misfortune of others. People have always loved to be scandalised ...... so long it isn't too close to home!
I absolutely adore this paragraph, because it's such an accurate, concise and witty criticism, not only of her own society, but of people and communities in general. And it's one of the things that makes Austen such a special writer - the communities and people she describes are so timeless - the love of scandal, the neighbourhood gossips etc. We've all encountered people like that who relish in the misfortune of others and regard it as entertainment.
I loved this video! I've only read translations of P&P in my own language, and now I know none of those translations did justice to the nuances of Jane Austen's text here.
Whoa. That detail flew right over my head. How interesting. Those people in Meryton were just lovely weren't they!
Your description of the 'spiteful old ladies' reminds me of those who will hear that a woman's pregnant and immediately- especially if she's a first timer- dig up all the worst pregnancy/labour/cot death stories they can think of. They're not interested in the woman's welfare, or giving her any advice, they just want to chew over old gossip.
Now they all write opinion columns,they spent the 1960s and 1970s advising people to "if it feels good do it" and now they're dissing and getting jailed all the ones who took their advice.
I am grateful that you have used the old dictionaries and, as a non-native speaker, have given me a better understanding of the intricacies of the language, as well as contemporary understanding and circumstances, and finally the irony Austen is so famous for.
These talks are brilliant, so much reading of these novels than I could have ever taken out of it alone.
Just wanted to say thank you for your perspectives & historical analyses! I've had a few of your videos saved in my Watch Later for a while now & finally had some time to enjoy them! Cheers 🩷🩷
Webster's 1828 Dictionary is a better source of information of what words meant back then, than today's Oxford.
When you know all the jokes and all the innuendos. And then Dr. Cox tells you...well, actually, this means this.....
Oh myyyy! Does it? Tell me more...😉😁😁
Ooh, didn't know that "come upon the town" meant that! Shocking!
I always figured the “secluded to a farm house” meant that she was probably pregnant and secluded to conceal the pregnancy. I believe she used a similar wording in sense and sensibility.
“Let other pens dwell upon guilt and misery…” may be one of my many favourite Jane Austen quotes along with the words from Mansfield Park: “…We have all a better guide in ourselves, if we would attend to it, than any other person can be…” It tells me how much she was aligned with the universe in spirit and as inspired, groundbreaking and wonderful as her work is that’s no surprise. It’s how consciousness is raised with each new generation. 💖✨
Maybe she was trying to excuse away her own sinning in real life what if she was a mistress in real life and that's why she was so called single
@@007nadineLWe would know. The circles she moved in were too gossip-based for such a thing to be kept secret. And she certainly never got pregnant, which was next to impossible to avoid back then.
Elizabeth and pretty much everyone else in the Bennett family understood the ramifications of courtship rules and the consequences of breaking them. Did Lydia truly not understand what would happen or do you think she simply did not care? I know its been mentioned repeatedly of her being a silly girl, but I have a hard time believing she was that ignorant of societal rules.
I think it's meant to be a severe reflection on the Bennet's parenting here - Lydia has never really had the 'facts of life' properly explained to her, and she's not clever enough to work it out on her own like Jane and Elizabeth or even Mary. Again, their parents may have spent more time with their older children before they got discouraged by the lack of a son, and now Mrs Bennett is trying to relive her own foolish youth through her younger daughters until she can get the greater vicarious pleasure of seeing them married, and Mr Bennett has given up altogether. After Lizzie, he seems to have had no more concern for or interest in the upbringing of his younger daughters - Mary learned her morals from books.
As a teacher, I would say a fifteen-year-old is QUITE capable of understanding the consequences of serious decisions, but she usually needs a responsible adult to explain it to her first and answer her honest questions without making fun of her (this goes for boys too, of course). Some people are smart enough to work it out on their own or humble enough to learn from experience, but on the whole I would say a large percentage of people are like Lydia: if you are ignorant of how the world/your society works at fifteen and no one helps you to learn then, you will be just as ignorant and unrealistic at 40.