How to Reproduce Analog Summing with Plugins ITB - Analog Summing Mixers Follow-up
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- Опубліковано 1 лис 2024
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In this video HOW TO reproduce analog summing with plugins 100% in the box. Mixing ITB
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mixbustv
mixbustv
/ rockstarstudio #mastering #compression #saturation #analogsumming
Very informative from the smartest dude on UA-cam!
And very responsive, as well. I think, Dave is a modern scientist))
You clearly have one of the best channels for mixing tips and instruction. Unlike lots of content creators which are doing the same, you have a talent for teaching. It does not go unnoticed. What you are explaining comes across clearly and intelligibly; well done. I own and operate my own studio but I am always learning. Nice content, man-- top notch.
are u kidding me, you made me watch in one night about 20 of your videos and learn a lot of tricks..I hope you will reach 1 m subscribers..I am definitely subscribing. You are a giver..
Really incredible, I have to get this. I can hear how so many older genres can be reproduced much more easily than using my regular stereo plugins on various mazes of buses. Thanks for the video.
I love NLS (& it was on sale for $29 recently). The 3 different desks all sound different, but every time I choose the SSL, I immediately recognize the 90's radio records sound. Plus (for me) it's the first time an ITB knob (Drive) truly felt like cranking an old stereo & playing & jamming with synths finally felt like what it used to feel like.....a little 'further away', yet easier to make decisions.
Thanks for the tips on the other gear.
Just bought this plugin because of this video! Thank you. They should pay you to sell this thing if they haven't already
You could even automate the knobs to different positions for different parts of the song. Crazy
The chorus of the sample song is just awesome! Thanks for your wisdom!
You are using it for 2buss and on a whole mix (for the sake of demonstration i guess)but i bet this would work even better on say 8 groups where you can treet each section sepertlay and then feed all that to the 2buss
I see that Matthew Lane actually produced a hardware analog spatial device OFF of his plugins called the "On the Moon SpaceCraft" with mid, side and spatial sections - pretty cool bc I never saw an instance where someone made an analog rack gear off the plugin... it's always the other way around!
Very awesome plugin (Love that push the Mid into the Side knob wow!)
@@mixbustv I think that "you steal my unit, you steal my heart" needs to somehow go in a song idk lol, but that's really dope that you have tried both! Maybe they'll let you borrow "the Unit" for an A/B comparison video! :D
But surely.. the surgical extent that plugin goes seems indispensable... I think i'm probably going to look into getting at least the software.. I think that delay on the crossover feature combined with the phase was awesome confidence mixing too; it's ok to get through even a top of the line production and you shift the phase and timing and therefore almost every aspect of the music, but that's cool, bc it does provide a pleasant effect (although there it would be wise to go back and check phasing on your individual stems or tracks?)
MixbusTV yo PLZ DO a review of it!!
Exactly what I needed. Thank you for your knowledge.
I just purchased the hornet tape plugin I dig on drums, but there are aaaa lot of plugins ofcourse available...Thanks for this video David!!!
Man, i've been using the DrMS for like 6 years and i never even thought to use it on the master bus. Awesome tutorial!!!
NickB33 what were you using it on?
Individual instruments. Synths, guitars, etc
Cool man... Very inspirational video for creative approaching digital mixing.Long live Mixbus TV!!
Very good video, (sorry English not my language) but you speak so clearly and the wording is very efficient for describing your point. I prefer the ozone at the end.
The most important thing that changed in mastering is in the last 2/3 years with the aggressive development of source separation. The more quality one can bounce from those the better and then one can address the final mastering rebalance and re-treat of the "sweetening". Also the way the source is separated creates that granular buttery quality of a high-end processor. So in effect, it is "DE-SUMMING" age we are in. The real effect people are after is the warm buzzy FM sound...somethings happening there as well, it sounds like an expensive preamp distortion, I'm talking about the sound that comes out of radio in general. There's a "radio" modulation sweetening happening, most noticeable on the announcers voices. Country music and Crossover has captured this fuzzy quality well, the mixes sound ultra high-end.
Mixing. What you're talking about is mixing. Mastering is done in a stereo mix, period. Stem mastering can be necessary if the mix is a mess. This whole over processing and overthinking a straight forward process that has been perfectly working for 60+ years is masturbation.
This plugin is f'n dope! Thank you buddy! Cheers!
The Dr MS is very nice love it, about saturators you should try VSM3 like Saturn or in the similar MS way but with emphasis on the character of the top high end Vertigo VSM 2 beast which it emulates
Helo Dave,love your video..for mastering purpose,the better use DRMS plugin before compressor or after compressor ?
I would try both options and listen which one I like more.
Yeah pls answer dave
i think it should be before compressor. because some of the feature also messes with the time alignment and phase, so it should be corrected/glued together again.
Hi, David
Great tips for depth, width and clarity ITB but what if you apply some of those techniques in your mix and after you send your stems through analog summing..?
Best,
Alex.
What if you add salt after you added salt?
Damn, really driving the point home with this one! Impressive
Love you david..thanks your tutorial are so helpful !
“I’ve got an exam,
I must be damned,
My friends call me Dan,
And I don’t see another name...”
??
@@mixbustv aren't those the lyrics to the chorus??? @16:12
I Love Dr. MS but using it still feels like driving TNT on a truck...Your tutorials/"infomercials" (ha ha ha) are always great!!! ThanXXL for that.
Hi, might you evaluate the various Console (Sat and tape ones too) Airwindows plugins ?
Is there an updated version of this?
Awesome job. Sound cool, but it does not sound the same (or substantially similar in many important imaging and related respects) to any of the different analog summing systems we have when monitored on any of our near/mid monitors (Focal Trio's) nor AV studio monitors (Barefoot MM45). However, I can definitely appreciate what you are trying to do.
Great point on the fact that many can get a lot more flexibility, capabilities and save money by going with plugins. Especially considering that to really get the benefits of analog summing, you need to get a LOT of other things right, or you are potentially wasting much of the money spent on analog summing. Also, love iZotope's imaging solutions, and they, as does the UAD Apollo options, potentially produce a much more refined approximation, without stepping on the underlying phasing/imaging. I evaluated but couldn't use the Saturn, as it ruined the imaging for me at ANY un-bypassed level.
The midrange still sound gritty and the phasing is creative colored rather than naturally expand, so there is little identifiably discrete positioning nor stable image localization in that mix. It may very well be the source material, as I have no way to know. Also, highly compressed MP3/AAC can destroy much of the benefits as well.
The UAD Neve and SSL, and the Waves NLS plugins attempt this from using different approaches, as well as from perspectives on which are the most critical differences between digital and analog summing. They are cool too, but are NOT at all the same either (we have UAD 8P and other hardware in house, and have worked with Neve, SSL and other such alternatives, which are great-- but different from a Dangerous 2B+ ST, Satori or loaded cable approach. Not surprising, as even they sound a bit different from each other.
Awesome video bud!! Always appreciate the knowledge!
I've always been intrigued by summing mixers. I'm 99% in the box, with the exception of a couple units that I rarely use. However, summing boxes like Dangerous stuff has been the one thing that I keep going back to and flirting with purchasing one.
I think for me...a lot of these crazy powerful plugins with loads of options and very delicate tweaking required...are sometimes just too damn much when applied to an entire mix. I get lost and have to start over... usually repeatedly. It is super frustrating and I end up scrapping it for something simpler that just gets the job done. I imagine it's mostly because of my untreated room and my shitty ears lol. But solutions like those boxes, seem to be more of a...just run it through em and your done, which eliminates all that infinite, minute, tedious, tweaking.... until I cry. :)
HOLY SHIT! I gotta check out the izotope exciter. thats magic.
What about the higher headroom in a summing box like the dbox plus? You’re still in the digital world with limits.
I agree a lot with your reasoning that a summing mixer is an overated machine but I think all the idea behind is to mix with it. Not to emulate the m/s and saturation difference after. Thats why either you have to find a preset with dr m/s to throw it at the masterbus till the start and not touch it. Or use NLS that does that but do it right at the mixing stage with all its functions (assign each channel to groups inside the nls plugin, etc).
I really like your channel man even if aesthetically we're very different!
All your videos are really correct.
Another interesting video would be to loan a summing mixer, and try to find a set of plugins that they emulate is very close and share the settings.
SSL Fusion is a very interesting idea/concept.
Have you checked the DIY Color palette from DIYre? It's the same concept much less expensive.
I'm in europe and i just tried the same one from Bart HRK and it does the job.
Wow ! The DRSM sounds great ,its like having the Rupert Neve MBP ! Gonna go download the demo
Thanks for you vids
MixbusTV oh yeah ! I know what you mean David ! You can compress , manipulate the stereo field and silk !! I love they way silk sounds !! Well I hope you post a video of it when you do get it ! Good luck Brother !!
Makes it a smooth sound. I find similar trick with u-he presswerk but this one have even more controls, that field and focus thingy.
Excellent video, salute to you sir 🙌🙏 i will be looking into this plug in 👊🎧🎶👌
what an eye opener! 🙏 thanks
Does The Izotpe Image Plugin Do The Same Thing As The DrMs?
Absolutely not, DrMs is one of a kind
This is something I would ❤ to accomplish 🔥🔥🔥🔥 tutorial!
awesome vid d, man you got to demo the acustica audio ruby eq and diamond, love to hear your opinion
If I might I second that
Im about to buy a summing box and or 2 bus processor. What would you recommend?
@@mixbustv Ok cool, Ill put the notifications on
Neve 5059 and Portico 2 MBP. I don't own them, but recently checked them out in a local studio.......and Wow!
I've sat with the Saturn so many times and never found a setting I liked. Don't you find it cuts out a little low end, even on a clean setting?
Daniel Docherty Music To my ear it makes it boomy with little to no use. I usually use Saturn on busses, instruments, on the 2 Bus only on midrange or high end
Interesting, will check it out and thanks for that. There’s already a hardware by the same company, called onthemoon spacecraft. Greets
Wow. This is amazing bro.
This literally changed the game for my mixes. The difference is night and day. This was really an eye opener for me. Thanks again
thanks a lot for this useful video. I have one good mic pre, I've heard about running the mix through 2 same mic pre technic and adding some saturation to the mix that way, what do you think about it? maybe the subject of an upcoming video :)
thanks for the information, I have one excellent pre which is a Vintech 573 and I'm thinking about buying the 2nd one for this technick, our music is power metal so I should first find a way to test that to see if it works for our music or not. have seen people do it with tube pre amp like tube tech or ADL. all the best :)
Have you heard or saw the site Mix Analog yet? Seems like a great alternative for BedRoom ITB producers to run they're songs thru just to touch some analog gear.
Thanks for being the best David! Just a doubt that arised, when u sum with plugins, the DrMs goes at the end of the chain?
I didnt get if you use a combination of these (obviously not Oz exciter and Saturn at the same time... or maybe?) or just one plugin to emulate the summing. Sry im new to this concept
Another gem 💎
That delay is a super interesting function. Can you automate the DrMS?
You are the man :)
wouldnt it make highly sense using a phase correlation meter here just to see if your ruining it completely?
If you need a meter to tell you if you're "ruining a mix completely" instead of your ears...
all true but from an ergonomic point of view is there anything else as alternative to DrMs, quicker an simpler (and cheaper :-) )? a bus technique with a cuople of m/s plugins ?
It doesn't get any easier than DrMS, and cheaper than what? The hw or the plugin? The hw, that I have, is 3.5K, which I understand it can be pricey for some people, but also it's sold out so you can't get it anyway, the plugin IS cheap. Audio aint' cheap, unless you believe the people who tell you you don't need anything, then you listen to their stuff and it sounds like shit.
@@mixbustv lmfao the end bit of your reply had me rolling 😂
After 5:08 when wheel was on 11 o'clock i started to think about a red convertible two-door Chevy :)
what are the benefits of dual mono? i always select the stereo plugins (except on my basses)...i never use monos on my buses or master...should i?
dual mono, more dynamic stereo field; stereo, more thick and glued.
@@izvarzone ah, thanks...i'll try it out!
this video was life changing
Is crosstalk really that important to finish off the full simulation of analog summing? I do not want to use a console emulation. Would I be good with just Dr MS and saturation/eq? What plugins do JUST crosstalk without adding color or anything else?
Let’s say I have just a synth bus, drum bus, vocal bus. I read somewhere that I can use a send on each bus to send to an aux, swap the LR on the auxes, add a tilt shelving eq to bring up more highs, then blend the results in like -70dB.
MixbusTV thank you!
at what time when mixing do you set those effects?
Mammuth23 i would use drms mostly for mastering or i guess 2bus on mix but def provide the mastering engineer with a dry copy if u do that
You’re amazing, high five!
Learnt smthng new again. Thanx !
This is one of the best production videos i've ever seen. It took my ITB mastering to the next level. Love your work David!
P.s. do you think DrMS could replicate what K-Stereo is able to do?
Some more quotes:
"Widening of the stereo base is an attractive feature for stereo sets with closely spaced loudspeakers... From this investigation it follows that the introduction of a small time delay in the crosstalk circuit shifts the regions with reinforcing localization cues in the direction of the listener, thus improving the localization of virtual sources in the widened stereo image." -- The Influence of Antiphase Crosstalk on the Localization Cues in Stereo Signals (Boers, 1983)
"...I discovered about 10 years ago that a short delay (Haas) between 15-30ms, 1 channel inverted and perhaps a low pass filter can really widen things without destroying the mono compatibility or changing the mix. It just takes a TINY bit of the delay to really liven up things. Aside from that, a simple M-S matrix followed by some envelope manipulation and finally, an L-R matrix is all I use." -- (user wado1942 commenting on Gearslutz mastering board, 1/2009)
Could you help me translate how to do these things in DrMS? I'm unfamiliar with some of the lingo they're using, such as "crosstalk" and "crossfeed"
This is why you're the best! I wrote your words down in a google doc. Thanks very much for taking the time. I will experiment with that
Amazing info
always on point D ! thank you !!
Thanks for this vid
number one!
Grande!
Great video gonna try this out.
Well done thank you for your time
Edward Brands r
Very cool song 👍. Who is the band?
Great video by the way 😊👍
real shit!! thanks
David. I'm sorry. Thank you for being patient with me.
No one wants to tell WHERE they put their NLS Bus instance.
Because we can have so many submixes in PT it sometimes gets unruly, I try to put the Bus instance on the Mix Buses (Buss'? Bus's spelling is not my forte. I have it written down somewhere).
Since I tend to have separate FINAL Mix Buses (as opposed to SubMixes) for similar audio signals (Beats/Percussion, Bass, Gtr, Vox) I put NLS Bus at the top of each MixBus. I put the Channel instance as the last insert on my individual audio/instrument tracks because I want its processing to happen AFTER I've finalized the sound for that track.
On the Mix Buses, I have it first because it just sounded better that way. Tried it first, last, on the master output, only on the final mixbus. The way i have it set up now gives me the best translation from what i hear in my studio to what I hear across various systems.
A loose diagram of routing:
Tracks --> Sub Mixes --> Mix Buses --> Main MixBus --> Master Fader
I probably SHOULD use VCA's as my Mix Buses...but I need to be able to use insert effects on my MixBuses, so it would be a lot of faders to scroll through!
Maybe my Beyerdynamic Headphone is broken, but the Bass moves somhow around inbetween the Sides (but not equaly). Your Voice i heare clear in the middle.(?) And! it phases the Signal. Sorry..
holy shit. spatial secret weapon!
Is there a free plugin way to emulate what dr ms does with the delay or with the bleed I also have ozone 7 so if there is a way to do it with that then that would be awesome
Thanks David
Isosocold there is actually. In order to get your side channels into mono just duplicate you one of your sides and swap it to the opposing side. For example both left channels on the right and left. This will generate a mono signal that you can mix in with your mix.
Acustica audio new pink2 is mind-blowing
is it fuq. Nebula is all hype.
@@quarkyzarky Obviously, it is that simple.
@@peteralbert9805 haha, well done! sometimes its best to let them stay lost
@@quarkyzarky learning curves are scary huh?
@@quarkyzarky this comment didn't age well lol
Superb sir
Hello. I really love your tutorials. I have a question. Can you do a tutorial using PINK NOISE to start a mix and give us your professional advice if this is a good idea? Thanks
Thanks again
checc out wavesfactory spectre for saturation, i like it better than saturn actually for 2bus
uagliooooo!!!😎👍🏾
If you can get the same if not better mixes in the box, why do so many “professionals” use outboard gear?
MixbusTV Hi David. Scheps is All in the Box now....maybe he use outboard like "dry", in between...said 90% or "wet" ??? .....he said he's 100% ITB...believe it or not..........it's difficult to believe seeing his console and outboards....
Greetins from Milano
Thank you guys for the insight I would find myself feeling discouraged after looking at honorable mix engineers and their gear, considering the fact hardware gear is so much more expensive than plugins."Its really not the gear but the engineer behind it".once again thanks guys much appreciated.
The reason why most professionals use outboard gear is because they're able to achieve the same results, if not better results as what's found in this video in much less time.
I've mixed in the box and out of the box, and after doing both for decades, out of box mixes come together faster and have this vibe to it that is intangible but absolutely noticeable. The professionals use outboard gear because it gives them the best results faster than ITB. But they are financially compensated for it and a lot of times given the gear so there's that. It always drives me crazy to see home studios with SSL consoles. We cannot afford that, so we may do with what we have in box.
Inbox is wonderful and powerful, but if you try an out of the box mix, even with just a summing amplifier and at least 16 outs on your interface, you will hear the difference instantly. Doesn't matter the music, doesn't matter the style, doesn't matter anything else. It is very noticeable.
@6:18 you get it mixed up (pun not intended :). Field injects the Side signal into the Mid (just as Focus injects Mid into the Side). Nice video btw, thanks.
A little arrow on the interface from Mid to Focus and Focus to Side / Side to Field and Field to Mid would be a nice reminder. Oh well, glad there's always something holding reality back from becoming perfection :-).
amazing.
It's not just cross-talk on analog that makes everything sound bigger, wider, ect...it's the natural blending of multiple single sources of voltage into 2 stereo channels without using mathematical calculations or algorthims. You can never do this in digital because digital will only use mathematical calculations and algorithms. Also, if you've fell into the trap of analog summing with stems on an analog summing mixer, you are actually not analog summing 100% because your stems first get summed in a digital bus (D/A) so it's not a single source. You can have 2, 4, 8 or more sources assigned to 1 buss in pro tools and call that a stem, but it's first getting summed digitally (via bus) to come out of a stereo bus output of your interface and into an analog summing box. It's really dumb. Do it like it has been done since the beginning...1 sound source for every D/A Converter and into your mixing console. Too expensive? Need more outputs? Well of course. No one said it's going to be easy.
*I* didn't fall into anything since my video is about summing boxes being questionable boxes at best, and nobody said it's just x-talk either. There's nothing "natural" about recorded music, so let's not romanticize analog, which if you ask always sounds better, yet, like explained in the video, there's absolutely nothing wrong with the digital sum, nothing, it doesn't need to be "fixed"
Your scenario the way you wrote it, it's flawed anyway. Because the signal is recorded to HDD, so it's converted to digital, doesn't matter what you do after, one track every DA channel or 6 into one, it's still digital, so your assumption that just because you bus several signals into one bus and the go out is the reason why a summing mixer doesn't do the job, has no foundation. The signals are already digital. If you want to avoid that, you'd record to tape and stay in the analog domain at all time up until you have to print. Once you passed thru an AD stage, that's it, the sound is now digital, prove the digital sum has something wrong and we'll have something to discuss. And that, can't be proven, the opposite tho' can. Sum it a million times, it will always give the same result.
@@mixbustv Ok. Try this. Record a Vocal and a guitar track. Make sure they're both panned center, channel 1 and channel 2. Sum 1 version digitally. Sum the other version analog, meaning the vocal comes out one D/A converter and the Guitar comes out a different D/A converter and into the mixer and the stereo gets printed back into digital. Compare both. The digital will sound smeared, out of focus, basically like crap and the analog will have wayyyyy more clarity and punch despite both being summed to the center.
@@380stroker lol no
ok boomer
@@buklau6509 I'm too young to be a boomer, you feminized npc zoomer.
👍
Dan warrel debunked summing mixers with nulling. They don't do anything special at all. Digital summing is defacto prefect, harmonic distortion and compression are not magical.
Oh what I did 5 years ago 😄
Although I'm not sure what compression has to do with summing mixers, that and harmonic distortion when analog can only be approximated with digital but most importantly he can only be done for one single example because variables in analog change constantly and that's the big difference that you cannot see or notice unless you actually mix with analog and not only do one test on one Saturday or two. The problem with some in mixers is what I talked about 5 years ago that at the beginning the marketing was focusing on how flawed the digital sum is which is not