Simple Jig to Hang Drywall Alone!!!

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  • @danhunik7949
    @danhunik7949 Рік тому +31

    Even with the size and weight of a drywall lift it is a life saver for an DIY guy to install drywall.

    • @eyespy3001
      @eyespy3001 Рік тому +1

      Yeah, a drywall lift is a great investment, even if you’re just renting it for the day. But I think some old school guys are just set in their ways, and they view things like lifts as cheating.

    • @LosPalangeles
      @LosPalangeles Рік тому

      Not sure about US, but here in Europe drywall lifts are mainly made of separate parts, some of them from aluminium so it's lightweight, easy to assemble and move around on tripod legs

    • @ebudrow1
      @ebudrow1 Рік тому +4

      Lifts were $60/day from Home Depot…worth it not to listen to the helper whine, “this is heavy…”

    • @danhunik7949
      @danhunik7949 Рік тому +3

      @@ebudrow1 I bought a drywall lift to do my house for less than 200 bucks. Not as heavy duty as the rental ones bit it worked just fine.

    • @nickchamp
      @nickchamp Рік тому

      I've used the old nogin clamp many a time while reaching for the screw gun. I like the lifts when you can use em, but apparently they just ain't good enough for the drywall crew we tend to use for the big jobs. They brute force it lol

  • @peterchristopherbanlon
    @peterchristopherbanlon Рік тому +11

    I just finished a drywall project in one of my bedrooms. I replaced a wall due to old water damage. Unlike you, I have no real talent for the work, but I finished it, and it looks great. You make everything look so simple, easy and fun and thanks to you and your advice, my job came off with very few problems. Thanks! Cheers!

    • @davidyoung7955
      @davidyoung7955 Рік тому +1

      Thanks I have a better way next time use a dead man plus put the cleat on the tape edge parallel to it

    • @davidyoung7955
      @davidyoung7955 Рік тому +2

      If I use the cleat at the butt joint I lift insert that end put my 6 foot ladder under the other end then go up the ladder and secure

  • @sharonbrown3666
    @sharonbrown3666 Рік тому +2

    I just love your teaching style. You've just given me the confidence to give this a go.

  • @trainer05081974
    @trainer05081974 Рік тому +4

    $150 drywall lift, it will stay late and show up every day. Love your videos they have helped me get better at mudding.

  • @ds61821
    @ds61821 Рік тому +3

    I look forward to seeing future videos on this project. All the videos you do are helpful.

  • @ThielTube
    @ThielTube Рік тому +7

    I am always hanging drywall by myself lol. I do alot of full bath and kitchen remodels and that usually includes new drywall walls and ceilings. I have been using basically the same idea for 30 years.

  • @letjoanin
    @letjoanin Рік тому +2

    Just love your videos. I get smarter with every one I watch, and your smooth delivery of the information is ready for primetime. I'm 69 and just had a new ceiling put in, and after watching your videos, I could see they were doing everything wrong. Their taping technique was horrible (they spread the tape crosswise, not down the length), covered the bubbled tape with more tape, and finally, in desperation, went on youtube and tried mixing mud into the ceiling paint. They've worked on one ceiling in a 10x12 room for three weeks. I wanted to tell them they were doing it wrong every step of the way. But I waited until they were done. It looked awful, but even worse after a huge gap/crack developed where the wallboard pulled away from the joists (it wasn't screwed down properly). So the company owner came out today (end of week 4) and, thanks to you, i was able to give him a blow by blow of everything they did wrong, down to saying they knew how to do drywall in the first place. I'm confident it will all be fixed when the owner comes back over next week(emoji of dazed woman slumped against wall with eyes crossed). But really, Ben, thanks. I was able to see and report on everything they screwed up on, thanks to you! Right down to pouring a whole panful of finish mud down my drain and totally clogging my bathroom sink!

  • @MyGuyKirby
    @MyGuyKirby 2 місяці тому +1

    Glad you are still young, strong, and not balanced challenged. Like learning from your videos

  • @lawrenceking4144
    @lawrenceking4144 Рік тому +1

    Another great video. Especially helpful for working in small spaces where a rented lift will not fit or is either impractical or unavailable. This is cheap and you don't have to purchase any "helper" tools that you have no use for once the job is finished.

  • @zackerydupuis6724
    @zackerydupuis6724 Рік тому

    keep up the amazing work Ben you always do such an amazing job on your repairs and on your videos.

  • @billm.8220
    @billm.8220 Рік тому +3

    Looks like this is going to be a lengthy project. Looking forward to learning from your expert knowledge, tips & tricks on this one. Happy holidays to you & the family Ben.

  • @dad1432
    @dad1432 Рік тому

    You're an excellent teacher and likable, humble guy. You're destined for major success. I look forward to watching it happen. When you're on tour someday, we'll shake hands.

  • @joeyj6051
    @joeyj6051 Рік тому

    Haha. Not a bad trick in a jam. Thanks for sharing. It's nice to see someone who cares about their craft. Keep the videos coming friend.

  • @eagleriver900
    @eagleriver900 Рік тому

    that's a handsome jig.. the only carpenter that I know that's focused on Drywall.. an enigma of the trades, the chosen one.. Thumbs up from CA near the San Gabriel mountains..

  • @Bayrum78
    @Bayrum78 Рік тому

    And here I was thinking I was the only one with a sore head! I got creative and screwed 2 tie downs straps into rafters, then slid the sheetrock forward then back. Thanks for your humor laced vids, tips and tricks. I'm on the tail end of a gutted house reno, and I refer to your vids quite often...especially when I'm at a loss for what to do or suspect there's a better way than the drizzle of an ig-no-ray-moose brainstorming (me).

  • @3cB2THeD
    @3cB2THeD Рік тому

    I’ve never done drywall but do have a project coming up and this was one of the ideas I was going to try. The other option I was thinking is buying one of those roller stands and somehow extending the center pole to go up to the 10ft ceilings I have. But your way has a way to get the drywall in the right spot on the side I wouldn’t be able to see if I was holding it up there. Thanks for this video

  • @jessespad
    @jessespad 9 місяців тому

    I love everything about you and your videos.

  • @PeterTrimboli
    @PeterTrimboli Рік тому +1

    I bought a drywall lift from harbor freight and seeing what you have to do I'm glad I did

  • @-clif1987
    @-clif1987 5 місяців тому

    Thanks for the joke about the employee. I needed this. God bless.

  • @Chippie-O
    @Chippie-O Рік тому

    How beautifully timed, Scott Brown Carpentry released a video using just this method earlier today to yesterday but didn't go into details. Love your work mate.

  • @richschuster1097
    @richschuster1097 Рік тому

    Love the comparison between the cleat and the assistant-too funny!

  • @davidparra4096
    @davidparra4096 Рік тому

    I just want to let you know Sir l learn quite a lot from you and l am glad you post your videos on your account often your are an amazing taper " happy Great Weekend"

  • @elektrovert
    @elektrovert Рік тому

    Thank you for your amazing videos! You've been my main guide for all this drywall work after some stuff got lost in translation with the builders I hired and they left me without any plaster work or painting done. I have a question for you. Part of the work involved taking down wood paneling from the ceiling, which exposed the old drywall that was the original ceiling. It's not very nice, and there are some gaps where the old walls were. looks like the builders put chipboard in those gaps. In any case, can I just screw new drywall onto the old drywall, is there a special way to handle that, or do I need to remove the old stuff first? (I'm afraid to do that because I'm thinking the insulation will come down from the attic. I can't afford that much work right now 😅). If I need to remove it, then I'll probably just try fill the holes and patch it with mud instead for the time being.

  • @nefariousyawn
    @nefariousyawn Рік тому

    Hey that house looks like a fun project. I look forward to seeing how it goes.

  • @jeremyjenewein918
    @jeremyjenewein918 Рік тому

    Great video, I was dying when you were venting about helpers being in the bathroom on their phone all day lol

  • @sadatkd
    @sadatkd Рік тому +1

    Tremendous appreciation

  • @moshekatz1199
    @moshekatz1199 Рік тому

    Love the idea...can't wait to see the vid on covering that beam

  • @lincolndickerson1293
    @lincolndickerson1293 Рік тому +1

    Vancouver content creator A.K.K Vancouver Carpenter. I actually love that you found a project so you can share stuff with us. Thanks!

  • @r7boatguy
    @r7boatguy Рік тому

    I use some rotating cleats as well. Put a fixed cleat along one edge, lift the drywall up and rotate the others into place. Then move the sheet into the exact position.

  • @davidgrisco1939
    @davidgrisco1939 Рік тому +48

    Thanks, I'll keep using my lift.

    • @cerrudmanuel
      @cerrudmanuel Рік тому +3

      Lol

    • @kaj1992
      @kaj1992 Рік тому +3

      Best €200 i spend.

    • @c-rad-87
      @c-rad-87 Рік тому +2

      Yeah Lyft is nice for yourself but sometimes I found out when using my lift and some of these smaller areas that little wood trick the Vancouver Carpenter used could come in handy someday

    • @riding2nowhere
      @riding2nowhere 8 місяців тому +2

      Lift is good if the house is totally empty. No crap on the floors.

  • @garyreadler4886
    @garyreadler4886 Рік тому

    You make it look so easy!!!

  • @itsJoshW
    @itsJoshW Рік тому

    Ben, obviously long time fan and I've come to you with questions You've answered before, but that is such a more complicated way when there's an even easier solution that apparently was used in the early 1900's, since my father learned it from his father (Yeah, one of these things).
    It's easy.
    Create two (2) "T"'s where it's taller than your ceiling with 2x4's. The 'top' of the T expands 3ft, allowing it to hold up the drywall.
    1) Then you use the block method to get the drywall in place, having the one "T" where the block is.
    2) You slide the first "T" at the other end, and pivot/shim it in place where it's leaning and applying upward pressure to the ceiling. Use the other "T" to take care of the other side.
    I did this for every ceiling in my house in early 2020, before I started taping and doing some of the coats...and then my neighbor, who is a general contractor and who ironically watches your videos too (Talked to him about your channel actually a few months back!) offered to coat the rest for me for a reasonable price (Cutting me a bunch of time off my project).
    Give this a try. Trust me, you may say "How have I not known this before".

  • @weldabar
    @weldabar Рік тому

    I hope you'll show in future video(s) all your to-do items shown here. I've done them, but am not sure if there are better ways.

  • @houptee
    @houptee Рік тому +4

    They actually make red plastic ones called BoardMate that have curved tongue and a thin spacer to keep a gap between sheets. And another clever tool is green plastic clips Mark N Guard with points you put in outlet boxes to mark the center. Made by Buddy Tools.

    • @nathanielhiebert6687
      @nathanielhiebert6687 Рік тому

      Why would you want a gap between sheets?

    • @houptee
      @houptee Рік тому +1

      @@nathanielhiebert6687 supposed to leave 1/8 gap between sheets to allow for framing expansion and contraction.

    • @nathanielhiebert6687
      @nathanielhiebert6687 Рік тому

      That’s retarded. If it expands or contracts your tapes crack. How do I know. 25 years in the trade.

    • @TheOfficialDjProduct
      @TheOfficialDjProduct Рік тому +6

      Only time I've ever needed a gap between sheets was cause the plans called for an expansion joint going the whole length of the room (always large garages). Any other time there was a gap was just cause the room wasn't very square, in which cause it was all filled with hot mud anyways. If you're going to end up filling those gaps with hot mud why not just make them tighter? Adding hot mud would just be doing something to prevent voids beneath your tape so you don't have any cracking later. If you're leaving 1/8 gaps to accommodate framing movement then prefilling and taping it, just seems like asking for cracks. I could be wrong if there is other knowledge unknown to me.

  • @ds61821
    @ds61821 Рік тому

    I have a non-drywall situation where I think cleats will help. I want to paint the stairwell going to the 2nd story of my house. I think I can screw cleats around the area above the lower part of the stairs and then place a piece of plywood on the cleats to give me a platform for the ladder? I think I saw you do that on some previous video. The cleat reminded me to do that for making a painting platform too.

  • @turnerdrywallrestoration8077

    It’s hard to beat a drywall lift. Although the other day I left the lift at home and when my help did NOT show up I had to do something very similar to what you just did 😂

  • @billide1463
    @billide1463 Рік тому

    I've had great success using these methods with the addition of a ratcheting "quick support" such as the Task posts sold at Home Despot; they provide fast hold up support and clamp tight with one hand. senior from Ontario

  • @2-old-Forthischet
    @2-old-Forthischet Рік тому +2

    The most important thing is youth. I'm an old fart and the last time I tried hanging even smaller pieces when I remodeled my kitchen, it took all of my four lettered vocabulary to get it done and it still didn't look that great.

  • @nathangilbert1344
    @nathangilbert1344 Рік тому

    Do you have any videos on bending drywall or mudding non 90 degree corners? Also, have you done any drywall art? I think like putting 3d designs in the wet mud with tools?

  • @okyowwowoolala6384
    @okyowwowoolala6384 Рік тому

    Cool I didn’t even know there was a way besides the drywall jack tool. I guess if you were doing drywall in an area where you couldn’t setup that tool this would be great.

  • @eyespy3001
    @eyespy3001 Рік тому

    Can’t wait for that archway video!

  • @MrTgonzo21
    @MrTgonzo21 Рік тому

    They make clips that allow the sheets to go into each other. I used a big T I made out of 2x4s to hang by the wall. Then bought a lift

  • @jefffree6990
    @jefffree6990 Рік тому

    Nice One ! I see you have some plaster tie in work to do . Do you ever do plaster repair ? (where there's a section where the keys have broken, but you don't want pull down the whole thing)

  • @jeanious2009
    @jeanious2009 Рік тому +2

    Next time try using a couple more studs holders, I use three and use them as long as possible (hanging over a good 12-16”) as long as they don’t interfere with the installation of the panel. Once you have three studs hanging over 16” then the drywall sheet literally hangs in the ceiling by itself making it much easier to relax and screw around.

  • @BacktrackADV
    @BacktrackADV Рік тому

    Thanks for another entertaining vid👍
    Merry Ho Ho … from another Vancouverite!

  • @devinmcgrath6648
    @devinmcgrath6648 Рік тому +1

    I'd like to know your opinion on a couple of things, maybe video worthy? I'm a kitchen installer and sometimes we have to do some pretty heavy drywall jobs. I was taught to glue and double-screw the ceilings. Is this overkill or a nice peace-of-mind sort of thing. We also try to use 16-footers to minimize or eliminate butt seams if possible.
    I personally hate drywall but it's part of the job so I might as well learn how to do it well.

  • @lapp15
    @lapp15 Рік тому

    Goodness gracious, don’t they have lifts in Canada?

  • @chazits
    @chazits Рік тому +1

    like to use a couple braces made with 2x4s to form a T, 8 ft. long and 2-3 ft. wide . One against the wall to hold the edge and the other to lift and jamb the drywall to rafters on free end.

  • @climbslc2281
    @climbslc2281 Рік тому

    Looks hard! But loved the effort and good idea anyway to thumbs up!

  • @1hjehje
    @1hjehje Рік тому +1

    My wife and I recently put up some drywall in our basement and I rented a drywall lift. The price was pretty reasonable and the rental company dropped off the lift on my driveway and picked it up when we were finished.

  • @Toorakz
    @Toorakz Рік тому

    For walls do you prefer when drywall is hung horizontally or vertically where you can take advantage of the factory tapered edges?

  • @MSeroga
    @MSeroga Рік тому

    Shots fired at the not so pretty helper! Haha keep up the content!

  • @terrybeaud9348
    @terrybeaud9348 4 дні тому

    Great tip Ben !!
    Where's your autoloader ... ? :)

  • @riding2nowhere
    @riding2nowhere 8 місяців тому

    That's a great idea. That probably would have saved me a lot of pain.😢

  • @vincetaylor6126
    @vincetaylor6126 Рік тому

    cool trick, thanks

  • @Salgadoabran
    @Salgadoabran Рік тому

    Please elaborate on your apprentice. That was too funny 🤣

  • @randyfitz8310
    @randyfitz8310 Рік тому

    It’s gonna be nice when it’s done!

  • @tomsmith3045
    @tomsmith3045 Рік тому

    Practical AND funny!

  • @kerrywilkie274
    @kerrywilkie274 5 місяців тому

    Trying 5/8 on a ceiling. Now thanks for the tip.
    I don't have a lift

  • @scottdecoster4002
    @scottdecoster4002 Рік тому +1

    Lol I remember doing it like that. I'm gutting up there now so I got me a cheap lift. Around $300. My back and shoulders thank me.
    It's never late and has to wait for me to get out of the lil boys room 😆

  • @dljones61
    @dljones61 Рік тому

    Just a quick question for anyone who cares to answer. When doing ceilings is it best to not have the tapered edge against the wall? Does having the taper on the board on a corner make it harder to get a square corner, I realize it would hide the tape better.

  • @grampakilt
    @grampakilt Рік тому

    I'm reminded of that scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark, where Indy is cornered by mean looking dudes with big knives when he remembers he has a gun...Just buy a drywall lift for about $150, then sell it for $120+ 'used once'. 😄 GK

  • @souduke
    @souduke Рік тому

    Do you have to put primer over a painted wall before skim coating?

  • @waferlane2548
    @waferlane2548 5 місяців тому

    I'm getting ready to hang sheetrock, what dimpler do you recommend? Thanks

  • @zacharybrown6074
    @zacharybrown6074 Рік тому +2

    i know a guy that would do the same tricks. however he would use a self loading screw gun to tack the sheet on. he said even though the cost per screw was x5 compared to a box of screws, if your just tacking the sheet you don't need to use too many and u save your strength and in turn get more sheets on for more $$$. to be honest a video on self loading screw guns is something i may not have seen you do, forgive me if i am wrong though...

    • @richardhouser2414
      @richardhouser2414 Рік тому

      I came here to say the same thing. The screws are crazy expensive by comparison, but it's fast, and your movements to add that screw to your gun while balancing were so awkward. With my DeWalt one, it's not that hard to swap out the attachment if you wanted to just tack, then swap once each way per sheet. The screws aren't that bad, though, when accounting for labor.

  • @BoldWittyName
    @BoldWittyName Рік тому +1

    Hi Ben, why do you say keep a 1/8" gap around a rough beam? I had a rough beam that had a similar gap and I added caulking because I could feel cold air dropping through. Mine was a roof though...

  • @rockinrobbie1985
    @rockinrobbie1985 Рік тому

    Genius

  • @bay9876
    @bay9876 Рік тому +1

    Some drywall installers complain they get a bald spot on their heads from holding drywall up to the ceiling. Why toques are so popular

  • @vincentbourke5217
    @vincentbourke5217 Рік тому

    Good tip for beginers. But for 9ft boards and less u be able to do it without the wood. But still love the videos. When i first started in the union i learned alot for watching his channel.

  • @launsoulblade3946
    @launsoulblade3946 Рік тому +1

    Have you ever made a T with a 2x4? can basically pinch the drywall with the T

  • @pathegreat3727
    @pathegreat3727 10 місяців тому

    I recently used a similar “cleat” technique along with using a vertical supporting brace in order to avoid the “reliable” helper pitfall; all without the hassle and expense of lifts.
    Either way the job gets done without adding to the growing list of excuses from “helpers” who clearly hate boarding as much as I do.🤨👍

  • @chrisortega8851
    @chrisortega8851 Рік тому

    If you add a homemade T brace made with 2×4s you can relax and adjust the board as needed😊

  • @melvinbeboso1656
    @melvinbeboso1656 Місяць тому

    I started my drywalling in my basement wall, it suppose to dropp ceiling but we have extra drywall so we decided to use it on ceiling, is it still gonna be ok cause I've read that ceiling first before sidewall, thanks in advance

  • @nomadnowhere1818
    @nomadnowhere1818 Рік тому

    do you have battery powered collated screw gun over there? like the dealt / makita / Milwaukee ones? sooooo much easier and quicker

  • @michaelmull5636
    @michaelmull5636 Рік тому

    Quick question, I'm remodeling my bathroom currently. Beside the bathtub is drywall with steel corner bead. Somehow over the years water has splashed out of the tub and soaked through the paint, drywall, and into the steel corner bead. The drywall around it has become brittle and cracked and flaked off even exposing some of the corner bead which is rusted. My question is could I cut the steel corner bead off about a foot above the rust area and replace it with new vinyl corner bead, quick set mud, and some new drywall board where the water has damaged it? Or should I remove the steel corner bead entirely to the ceiling and replace the entire length with vinyl bead? I'm not sure if it's ok to have half the corner steel and the other half vinyl. Any input is appreciated, thank you

  • @PedroRodriguez-hy5ty
    @PedroRodriguez-hy5ty 7 місяців тому

    Can I put drywall over particle board let me know thanks

  • @123gh
    @123gh 10 місяців тому

    Lol ty, I will just wait for her to get home

  • @gBayCanada
    @gBayCanada Рік тому

    Why Roxul on the walls and fibreglass pink on the ceiling?

  • @tazanteflight8670
    @tazanteflight8670 Рік тому +1

    What did your apprentice do, to piss you off?

  • @c-rad-87
    @c-rad-87 Рік тому

    Yeah it looks like you got your hands full if you're doing that by yourself looks like a lot of little cut up stuff looks like you got most of your big stuff up already always enjoy your videos and your tips good luck on your project

  • @hlaci17
    @hlaci17 Рік тому

    Nagyon ügyes vagy 🙂

  • @mammothscott1455
    @mammothscott1455 Рік тому

    A third arm would sure come in handy. Cheers

  • @tommycho9068
    @tommycho9068 Рік тому

    Wow... Hope you did not pull the muscles on your shoulder.
    Great video and be safe.
    Thanks

  • @declanfarber
    @declanfarber Рік тому

    That thumbnail is straight out of Star Trek. :^)

  • @vladtepes97
    @vladtepes97 Рік тому

    if you're not tall enough to hold it up with your head?

  • @ShineOnBenevolentSun
    @ShineOnBenevolentSun 10 місяців тому

    Yeah, as a single female DIYer who needed a day or two to recover after carrying her own drywall into the house, I'm using a lift even for the upper sheets on the vertical walls 😂

  • @janderson8401
    @janderson8401 Рік тому

    I don't do enough drywall to merit buying and storing a drywall lift. That said, I've either rented or borrowed one for every ceiling I've hung for the last 25 years. The only places I wouldn't are really low ceilings, places where you couldn't easily roll the lift around, or places like an attic where it would be more work to carry the lift up than it hang the boards without one.

  • @Kayak1088
    @Kayak1088 Рік тому

    That little strip against the door is gonna be narrow. I try not to finish the seams close to doorways or openings. But sometimes you have to.

  • @stashoski2675
    @stashoski2675 Рік тому

    👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍. Interesting

  • @Janega88
    @Janega88 Рік тому

    Nice tip. Try lifting 5/8 sheets 😂. I ended up cutting them in half... next time I will rent a lift well worth it.

  • @steffentangen8039
    @steffentangen8039 Рік тому

    Why dont you have the front part with autoloader? I dont get why people dont use it..

  • @drywallisthepits
    @drywallisthepits Рік тому

    Any suggestions for attaching drywall to 100 year douglas fir studs? I am breaking about twenty five percent of my screws installing the sheets.

    • @vancouvercarpenter
      @vancouvercarpenter  Рік тому +1

      Maybe your screws are too long. A 1 1/4" screw for 1/2" drywall should not be breaking so easy. I only have screws break in old studs if the screw is too long or it hits a knot. Also a good drywall drill going at full speed should be able to get the screw in fast enough to not have a problem. Spinning too slow increases the resistance as well.

  • @inhocsigno9151
    @inhocsigno9151 6 місяців тому

    Note: It helps to be young and strong.

  • @eligebrown8998
    @eligebrown8998 Рік тому

    Dont hurt your self lol. I have 2 folding ladders that reach 10ft when folded. I raise both of them until their 4 inches from the ceiling, lay my sheetrock on top then start screwing them down from one end to the other.

  • @dublinbluetune
    @dublinbluetune Рік тому

    Well... you talked me out of it

  • @ZACHAFARI
    @ZACHAFARI Рік тому

    Put the supporting 2x4 jig on the joists not the drywall its easier to set the corner

  • @scottdeason2940
    @scottdeason2940 11 місяців тому

    Ever tried a simple "T" ? Goes to the floor and you can drag it around the house with you.

  • @josephstanley200
    @josephstanley200 9 місяців тому

    Lol I can’t even find a helper just to hold a T on one side

  • @RetroBerner
    @RetroBerner Рік тому

    So glad I stopped hanging drywall, that's a pita, though I would have precut those high hats

  • @erichsh58
    @erichsh58 Рік тому

    "Able-bodied" and "mechanically adept". Leaves me out. If ever I had to do this I would put a similar jig on the other side except come up with a swivel mechanism for the supporting 2X4 or whatever I use. That way the sheet would be supported and I could use both hands to drive in the screws. I have to put drywall on the garage ceiling and still trying to decide if I should even try.