That's quite cold-hearted of Shen Dan to switch sides again just like that even with his family in Chengdu. He really just condemned his whole family just to not risk his own hide.
I think it was more for his personal wealth. He could have fled with Liu Feng back to Cheng Du and go back to his family, however he chose to let them die so he could maintain his power and wealth.
This is the beginning of "most" Three Kingdom fan started stop reading the novel. Started by Guan Yu dead, Cao Cao followed later, Liu Bei failure, death of Zhuge Liang as a closing tragedy. Such a pity end for heroic era.
It would be harder to justified making himself as an emperor but even if Liu Xie lives his acceptance of Cao Pi can be used to say he has failed the Han and that to continue the Han, Liu Bei will pick up the mantle
Liu Bei could have made an argument that he was the last "truly loyal" sovereign prince of Han (despite his distant relation and having given himself the title without confirmation). By order of elimination, he inherits or rather restores the dynasty as an epochal ruler like Guangwu.
Thanks for the details analysis on all of your videos! I wondering if you can do a series on the Spring and Autumn Warring State period of China. I heard that it had a lot more intense political dramas than the three kingdom period.
I still wonder if Liu Bei could've patched things up with Cao Pi even temporarily if he hadn't declared himself emperor. We know from history that Sun Quan was just waiting for an opportunity to break free from Wei, and Liu Bei didn't have the same personal animosity with Cao Pi that he had with Cao Cao. If the two had entered into the same kind of uneasy equilibrium that Cao Cao and Sun Quan had previously had, maybe Sun Quan would've jumped the gun and gotten himself boxed in from north and west? Cao Pi was definitely pragmatic.
@@bzoner16 After hearing of death of Cao Cao, Liu Bei sent Han Ran (韓冉) as an emissary to deliver a letter of condolences and gifts to Cao Pi. There are records that Cao Pi thought this as possible peace gestures, Cao Pi put Han Ran to death. (Another records suggests Han Ran feigned illness and sent a letter only; thus saved himself). Either way, Liu Bei’s intention was checking on weather Wei would attack Han. After judging Cao Pi is too busy with house cleaning, Liu Bei made a decision to attack Wu.
@@DaeGonKwon To my knowledge, Han Ran is only mentioned once in the annotations to the records. It pretty explicitly blames Han Ran's death on Cao Pi's bereavement over the death of his father and doesn't elaborate. It's a big stretch to call it a symptom of Wei's internal affairs, and honestly it would be pretty irresponsible to assume such things if you were Liu Bei. Furthermore, the Records also pretty clearly put Liu Bei's decision to attack Wu at the feet of his own bereavement at the death of Zhang Fei happening right on top of Guan Yu's, despite his advisors telling him to hold off. This wasn't much of a calculated move so much as a vendetta.
@@bzoner16 It wasn’t just a vendetta, rather political one. Sun Quan appointed Liu Zhang as Governor of Yi in hopes of undermining Liu Bei’s rule. When Liu Zhang died, his son Liu Chan (劉闡) took his place. Sun Quan appointed Zhou Tai as prefect of Hanzhong. (Expressed his ambition to conquer Hanzhong from Liu Bei). Sun Quan also instructed Shi Xie to aid Yong Kai to rebel. As newly crowned Emperor of Han, Liu Bei had to show authority and honor by retaking Jingzhou. Liu Bei knew just year or two before ending Han dynasty, Xuchang was plagued with rebellion by Geng Ji, Wei Huang, as well as Hou Yin. Detachment of Guan Yu’s troops arrived and caused chaos in Xuchang briefly. Cao Pi as new emperor need time to solidify his rule, and that is one of the reason he moved capital to Luoyang. Liu Bei’s objective was retaking of Jingzhou, and correctly assumed Sun Quan did not have friendly relations with Cao Pi after death of Cao Cao. As cautionary measures, Liu Bei placed Huang Quan to defend north incase Cao Pi intervenes. Liu Bei planned 1 year and 6 months after death of Guan Yu to attack Wu. If it was a simple vendetta, Liu Bei would attack right away instead of slow plan and gather intelligence on Wei.
Liu Bei being the only Liu member who was not a puppet and had his own powerbase made him the only one who could become an emperor even if his blood lesser or from a concubine, I mean Liu Xun who stayed in Shu while Liu Zhang and his youngest son joined Wu as puppets to justify Wu attacking Shu "though failed" Why didn't Meng Da and Liu Feng help Guan Yu? would Wei had just had Shangyong attacked or something or did they think Guan Yu had it in the bag not expecting Wu to attack?
they needed to stay there to hold it since they didn't know if they could trust Shen Dan and Guan Yu wasn't Liu Feng's commander. Liu Bei told Liu Feng to take Shangyong. Never gave any command about helping Guan Yu, and with the last bit of news from the Jing Province being Guan Yu flooding and winning against Yu Jin, they didn't think they needed to help. Speed of communication is a major problem back in the days.
@@SeriousTrivia dont know how you could blame them then, though i guess because of politics or shame someone has to take it, could just blame Sun Quan for backstabbing and, Mi Fang, Fu shiren for betraying Liu Bei, Mi Fang being his brother-in-law, he should had thought better and eventually get reassigned to Han Zhong maybe, Fa Zheng took abuse and criticism like a man for years til he had power later
@@yukimurasanada5209 As much as I personally like him as a historical character, I don't think you want more of your officers to be emulating Fa Zheng. A kingdom can really only take one man like that before they start killing each other lol. Ultimately though, Mi Fang's familial connections to Liu Bei were basically nil after his sister got captured or killed when they rebelled against Cao Cao as part of the Dong Cheng conspiracy (she disappears from history at that point). Guan Yu had already threatened to punish him when he got back from Fancheng, so Lu Meng showing up with an army made the calculus very simple. Risk fighting a superior army only to maybe be punished anyways if your side wins, or just switch sides and get rewarded for it. It's not a hard choice, really.
@@bzoner16 meh I'm obsessed with Honor and loyalty anyway, and I heard they were more so, Yu Fan made Mi Fang regret his decision, I'd have sent a message to Guan Yu that Wu is coming and advise to set up at Jiang Ling while I hold them off for what small amount of days I could, kinda go down like Zhuge Zhan or if Jiang Wei kept fighting, he did serve Liu Bei since 194-ish and was still an In-Law I dont think that goes away unless Liu Bei personally divorced Mi Shi who I thought was around still after Chang Ban....I think Zhao Yun escorted Mi Shi and Lady Gan, also didn't Guan Yu surrender to Cao Cao if Liu Bei's family were spared? so she would not die during the Dong Cheng events?
@@yukimurasanada5209 Some people were obsessed with 'honor and loyalty' others weren't. Hell, this whole video is mostly about people who very assuredly weren't. Anyways, Guan Yu knew that Wu was a threat well beforehand. They took half his territory from him in 214. He just still seemed to not take them seriously (much like he didn't take the threat of Mi Fang seriously). Guan Yu had already been thoroughly beaten by Xu Huang, so him turning around and somehow beating Lu Meng while in retreat was a far fetched idea. Sure, Mi Zhu could go down fighting a losing battle, or he could switch sides and save himself. I know we haven't technically gotten there yet, but look at what happened to Liu Feng when he stayed loyal. Not a great fate. Whether or not Mi Fang was still legally his brother in law, if his sister isn't around anymore, there's no personal connection other than maybe his brother. Zhao Yun only escorted Lady Gan at Changban. Like I said, Lady Mi disappears from history well before then, so she was either caught up in the Dong Cheng plot (either living as a prisoner or being executed shortly thereafter) or died before that. Guan Yu never bartered for her safety or escorted her in history, only the novel.
A vindictive strategy to tell the world that Liu Bei burned to death. An intriguing ploy to force a stalemate or give Shu-Han a chance to reclaim Jing.
@@SeriousTrivia After learning Liu Bei’s defeat, Zhuge Liang lamented, “If Fa Zheng was alive he would have stopped his majesty from going east. If he was not able to stop him from going, we would not have been defeated such.” In my opinion if Fa Zheng was alive he would have convinced Liu Bei to stop the campaign altogether. Fa Zheng was Liu Bei’s favorite subject and always listen to his advice. For example, during Hanzhong campaign, Liu Bei’s troops were in danger by Cao Cao’s troops. Rocks and arrows were dropping in front of Liu Bei and when his generals asked Liu Bei to fall back, Liu Bei refused in anger. Then Fa Zheng rode his horse in front of Liu Bei towards raining arrows and rocks. Liu Bei asked Fa Zheng to fall back, however, he replied why as Lord Liu Bei is bracing arrows and rocks himself. After hearing this, Liu Bei calmed down and retreated with Fa Zheng.
@@SeriousTrivia Pretty much the same personal sentiment In Dynasty Warriors 8: XL, Fa Zheng with a fake formation with Liu Bei as bait, basically lures the Wu Forces into triggering the fire trap with a fake retreat into an ambush. His way via his DW-portrayal, to give the pay back such debts. Then in his hypothetical route in DW9, it's basically the same thing with Fa Zheng being more aware of the canon-historical issue of Liu Bei's camps being pushed out too far, but they instead take advantage of luring in Wu into their own ground with a fake retreat. And by that proxy he manages to dispatch Zhu Ran and then Lu Xun to prevent their fire attack from ever happening. Furthermore, he already planned ahead in advance of Wei likely trying to attack Shu's north flank of Hanzhong via Bashu and Yangping Gate. So they were able to finish up Yiling and effectively double back to save their northern area.
So how come the Shangyong region in-game is split in two parts, with the weapon craftsman section having no direct land access to the rest of the region? The in-game map looks like it would make more sense for the weapons craftsman to be part of Ba.
Hello serious Trivia, i just wanna ask about this. What if Liu Feng or Liu Yong ( Liu Bei 2nd son) become Liu Bei successor ? Do u think They are moar capable than Liu Shan? I can't wait to see the next episode 🙏 bless this channel !
absolutely no idea how Liu Yong and Liu Li were. There is no chance Liu Feng could be considered as heir as the whole point of Liu Bei's regime was to continue the Han and you can't have that claim if you are adopted and not from the imperial bloodline
@@SeriousTrivia Zhuge Liang told Liu Bei to “remove,” Liu Feng because of his “fierce,” nature. To protect Liu Shan, Liu Bei ordered Liu Feng to commit suicide. Liu Feng’s son, Liu Lin, was spared. Liu Yong as second son, would not have support of Zhuge Liang and loyal court. In addition, Liu Feng’s mother is Changsha Liu family. Emperor Guangwu of Han is Changsha Liu family. That means through mother’s bloodline, Liu Feng is higher line of imperial Liu line than Liu Bei.
If Liu bei decided to invade Cao Wei instead of Dong Wu should he attack via Hanzhong or Shangyong to Punish Meng Da, it seem like road to Shangyong is closer to Xuchang and Luoyang, than the route of Zhuge Liang's norhern invasion?
The Shangyong road is really hard to march large armies which is why it was never used by either side. It would also be hard for Liu Bei to attack knowing that Dong Wu might join Wei and attack Yi when he is away
Only way to attack Shang Yong by land is from Fangling. (But it felled to Wei). From Hanzhong troops need to board ship to Shang Yong by downstream. But if invasion fails then troops will be trapped as it would be hard to retreat via upstream towards Hanzhong. In Spring of year 242, Jiang Wan planned to invade Shang Yong, however, because this reason the plan were cancelled. (Also Jiang Wan was fallen ill).
Sun Quan should have thrown Lu Meng under the bus instead of trying to pin it on Cao Cao, Lu Meng was dying anyway and not as wily as Cao Mengde. Probably still wouldn't have mattered. Of all the factions Wu is my least favourite, other than Lu Su who was the only decent guy down there. I don't understand what Sun Quan's hurry was, he had to know unlike the other 2 he had time on his side. Should have played the long game instead of trying to switch sides every other week, look how trying to out think everyone went for Zhou Yu.
Historically, Sun Quan had good reasons to think he could get away with it. He was stronger than Liu Bei in terms of numbers, and Liu Bei and Cao Cao would *never* ally against him because the two hated each other. He was the wild card, and so long as he believed he could protect his own regions, he knew that in the end, Shu needed him as an ally more than he needed them. This sorta got thrown for a loop when Cao Cao died. If Liu Bei had even temporarily allied with Cao Pi against him, or even just timed his invasion later, he might have been in mortal danger, but alas, Liu Bei declaring himself emperor prematurely scuttled that. Furthermore, Sun Quan really could not throw the man who had won Jingzhou under the bus without pissing off his entire military. Lu Meng was by far the best general he had had since Zhou Yu (and arguably even better in some ways), and his near total victory on the project that Zhou Yu had started over a decade prior set a precedent. Wu, more than the other kingdoms, leaned on its nobles and officers for personal support. At the end of the day, it's hard to argue with the results. Sun Quan got basically everything he wanted.
Not only what Riven said, but this was when Liu Bei was setting himself up as the savior of the Han while Sun Quan only held power in Wu at the time. There's no guarantee that Liu Bei wouldn't have turned on him eventually.
Guan Yu stole supplies from & insulted Sun Quan on numerous occasions but somehow Sun Quan is the bad guy for betraying him. Yeah, Guan Yu had it coming.
I am sure the love lost started with Sun Quan encroached on the Jing Province in 215 and took back the southern commanderies. If you view things from Guan Yu's perspective, he is serving a descendant of the Han imperial line seeking to restore his country fighting against a usurper in Cao Wei. Meanwhile Sun Quan who is suppose to be an ally and former in-law to Liu Bei (and honestly just an opportunistic warlord seeking to exploit the Han chaos) is not helping at all and just backstabbing all the time. Of course, this also meant from Sun Quan's perspective, he was just serving his own self interest. But of course if you make this argument then everyone in history can justify their actions as righteous. So framing is important. If Wu went on to win the whole thing using the gains they got from these opportune and justified moves, then no one today would mock Sun Quan. He would be the hero who rose from the chaos of the Late Han and formed a new Dynasty under his name, but instead, he failed to capitalize on any of these moves. 1. Pulls over miracle defense at Chibi (gets a costly win in Jing only to have Liu Bei take the benefits due to the political marriage and Zhou Yu's death). Meanwhile, Sun Quan fails for the first time in Hefei. 2. Still grudging that he didn't get enough out of the win after Chibi, Sun Quan takes back the southern portion of Jing in 215 when Liu Bei was in the Yi Province. Liu Bei marches back and Sun Quan agrees to sign the Xiang River Treatise and the border is confirmed with a renewed alliance. 3. Liu Bei goes back to fight Cao Cao in Hanzhong while Sun Quan takes this opportunity to attack Hefei when Cao Cao is away. Guess what Sun Quan fails again at Hefei despite overwhelming numerical advantage. 4. Now with Hefei not working, Sun Quan turns to Guan Yu who is having unprecedented success against Cao Cao in the Jing Province. 5. Successfully kills Guan Yu, claims just Liu Bei portion of the Jing Province. Tries to defect Guan Yu's execution to Cao Cao but fails. 6. Liu Bei comes marching, Sun Quan is so scared that he publicly becomes a vassal to the newly created Wei Dynasty and Cao Pi. 7. Another miracle defense thanks to Lu Xun in Yiling, and Sun Quan immediately regret his vassalage as Wei and Sun Quan goes to war after Sun Quan blocks the request to have his son move to Luoyang as a political hostage. 8. Due to pressure from the Wei attacks and Shu Han's olive branch after Liu Bei's death, Sun Quan recreates the alliance with Shu Han. Basically, he is an opportunistic regional warlord who managed to eventually create a Kingdom 8 years after the other two due to the geographical isolation granted by the Yangtze River (and a huge military mistake by Cao Xiu). Never did much with any of the opportunities that came his way and thus is why people look down on his moves as backstabs. If we have a sport analogy, Sun Quan is the crafty football player who get a great defensive tackle out of nowhere in the midfield. He has the ball and his striker is running clean ahead with a open look on the goal, but because he is selfish, he keeps the ball and eventually dribble it too much until the defenders come back. In the end, nothing happens. That was pretty much Wu during Three Kingdoms. The third kingdom that was just big enough to help keep balance with the other two but never a real threat to do anything. And then the moment, one of the other two went down, they were done for.
@@SeriousTriviaWeird that’s how I feel about Liu Bei’s faction. Back stabs his allies whenever it benefits him (Liu Zhang is the most obvious example), abandons his family whenever he was outmanoeuvred (Changban), takes credit for the victories of others (Chibi was largely Zhou Yu’s baby). So yeah my opinion of Liu Bei & his two bros is not very high.
It's all going to be about intentions. When you view history from a Chinese perspective, Liu Bei was trying to save a failing Emperor. By Confucian values, he was being a good member of his family (the imperial clan) and a patriot. On top of all this, he literally started out by selling straw shoes in his twenties to making a name for himself as an chancellor for a princedom in his thirties. Then a lot of ups and downs where he did exploit his positions repeatedly due to the fact that he was well liked and a member of the imperial clan. He jumped from one ship to another until finally he got the ultimate prize in the Yi Province by betraying one of his kin. The argument that they had to use there is Liu Zhang was unpopular (as members of his court basically setup Liu Bei's entry into Shu and betrayed Liu Zhang) and that Liu Zhang was not using the resources in Shu Han to try to restore the Han. But ultimately, Liu Bei managed to extend the Han through his government in the Shu lands for another 40+ years and if you are viewing history from the Han perspective, he was doing things for a good cause. Like if Liu Zhang and Liu Bei both goes into the underworld and meet Liu Bang, you think Liu Bang is going to be mad at Liu Bei for taking Liu Zhang's land to resist the usurping Cao clan? Especially since Liu Zhang got to live out his days safely after the takeover, which when it comes to imperial clan intra-conflicts for power historically is quite rare.
But if you want to take an outside look and just judge people on human morals, then surprise surprise, everyone in these chaotic times (in the past, in the present and in the future) are going to be scumbags, selfish, and faithless (because these things get people ahead).
hei serious trivia, im frustated i want shadow runner from caocao, but i cant capture him i managed to reduce caocao to only 1 army and he not have any county anymore, so the faction would destroyed once i fight him i played as liu hong (the emperor) my question is the item (shadow runner) would lost forever? sorry to ask in wrong sub-categorized of your channel, but i had googling it everywhere cant find the answer or solution thanx in advance
if you wipe his faction then yes the item would be stored in the dead faction inventory and lost forever. You can try to vassalize him and then annex his faction (it would cost you a lot of treachery but guarantees you the item)
With the destruction of the army in Jingzhou and the loss of that province, I'd say probably not, but Liu Bei did have an advantage of having less territory to guard. The only other real threat he had to deal with was the north, which could be guarded by a very small garrison thanks to the defensibility of the mountain passes. Sun Quan still had to maintain defenses throughout his very long border with Wei (which got lengthened thanks to his recent conquests). So while Sun Quan had more men overall, his strategic position probably meant that he couldn't translate it into a huge local advantage.
That's quite cold-hearted of Shen Dan to switch sides again just like that even with his family in Chengdu. He really just condemned his whole family just to not risk his own hide.
I think it was more for his personal wealth. He could have fled with Liu Feng back to Cheng Du and go back to his family, however he chose to let them die so he could maintain his power and wealth.
Liu Bei must have felt awkward when he found out Liu Xie was not even dead and he had held a big funeral for him.
And they said Lu Bu was treacherous,well they never heard of Shen Dan then.
My man Liu Bei needed a break after this, just not permanently
Ah, the campaign that sealed Shu Han's fate.
This came just in time, experiencing jet lag and insomnia in the Philippines. Thanks man, super excited for this series!
Just one failure in communication and turst after another. Thanks for the video.
You are toooooooooo underrated. BTW love how you can speak so good English while maintaining the Chinese accent.👍
Magnifecent and depp content as always.
This is the beginning of "most" Three Kingdom fan started stop reading the novel. Started by Guan Yu dead, Cao Cao followed later, Liu Bei failure, death of Zhuge Liang as a closing tragedy. Such a pity end for heroic era.
Oh heck yeah, I love these series!
If Liu Bei haven’t heard that Liu Xie was dead, then is it most likely he would still “inherit” the throne of the Han, right?
It would be harder to justified making himself as an emperor but even if Liu Xie lives his acceptance of Cao Pi can be used to say he has failed the Han and that to continue the Han, Liu Bei will pick up the mantle
Liu Bei could have made an argument that he was the last "truly loyal" sovereign prince of Han (despite his distant relation and having given himself the title without confirmation). By order of elimination, he inherits or rather restores the dynasty as an epochal ruler like Guangwu.
Liu Bei always sought the Throne, he just used fighting to restore Liu Xie as an excuse until it didn't serve his purposes anymore.
Thanks for the details analysis on all of your videos!
I wondering if you can do a series on the Spring and Autumn Warring State period of China. I heard that it had a lot more intense political dramas than the three kingdom period.
The plan right now is to finish up the three kingdoms time line then hop back to the Zhou Dynasty and start there from the beginning so yes eventually
@@SeriousTrivia
Awesome, thank you 谢谢!
I still wonder if Liu Bei could've patched things up with Cao Pi even temporarily if he hadn't declared himself emperor. We know from history that Sun Quan was just waiting for an opportunity to break free from Wei, and Liu Bei didn't have the same personal animosity with Cao Pi that he had with Cao Cao. If the two had entered into the same kind of uneasy equilibrium that Cao Cao and Sun Quan had previously had, maybe Sun Quan would've jumped the gun and gotten himself boxed in from north and west? Cao Pi was definitely pragmatic.
really hard to sell the restore the Han gig if you show any peace with Cao Pi
@@SeriousTrivia True enough. Would've been a hard pill for anyone to swallow.
@@bzoner16 After hearing of death of Cao Cao, Liu Bei sent Han Ran (韓冉) as an emissary to deliver a letter of condolences and gifts to Cao Pi. There are records that Cao Pi thought this as possible peace gestures, Cao Pi put Han Ran to death. (Another records suggests Han Ran feigned illness and sent a letter only; thus saved himself). Either way, Liu Bei’s intention was checking on weather Wei would attack Han. After judging Cao Pi is too busy with house cleaning, Liu Bei made a decision to attack Wu.
@@DaeGonKwon To my knowledge, Han Ran is only mentioned once in the annotations to the records. It pretty explicitly blames Han Ran's death on Cao Pi's bereavement over the death of his father and doesn't elaborate. It's a big stretch to call it a symptom of Wei's internal affairs, and honestly it would be pretty irresponsible to assume such things if you were Liu Bei. Furthermore, the Records also pretty clearly put Liu Bei's decision to attack Wu at the feet of his own bereavement at the death of Zhang Fei happening right on top of Guan Yu's, despite his advisors telling him to hold off. This wasn't much of a calculated move so much as a vendetta.
@@bzoner16 It wasn’t just a vendetta, rather political one. Sun Quan appointed Liu Zhang as Governor of Yi in hopes of undermining Liu Bei’s rule. When Liu Zhang died, his son Liu Chan (劉闡) took his place. Sun Quan appointed Zhou Tai as prefect of Hanzhong. (Expressed his ambition to conquer Hanzhong from Liu Bei). Sun Quan also instructed Shi Xie to aid Yong Kai to rebel. As newly crowned Emperor of Han, Liu Bei had to show authority and honor by retaking Jingzhou. Liu Bei knew just year or two before ending Han dynasty, Xuchang was plagued with rebellion by Geng Ji, Wei Huang, as well as Hou Yin. Detachment of Guan Yu’s troops arrived and caused chaos in Xuchang briefly. Cao Pi as new emperor need time to solidify his rule, and that is one of the reason he moved capital to Luoyang. Liu Bei’s objective was retaking of Jingzhou, and correctly assumed Sun Quan did not have friendly relations with Cao Pi after death of Cao Cao. As cautionary measures, Liu Bei placed Huang Quan to defend north incase Cao Pi intervenes. Liu Bei planned 1 year and 6 months after death of Guan Yu to attack Wu. If it was a simple vendetta, Liu Bei would attack right away instead of slow plan and gather intelligence on Wei.
Liu Bei being the only Liu member who was not a puppet and had his own powerbase made him the only one who could become an emperor even if his blood lesser or from a concubine, I mean Liu Xun who stayed in Shu while Liu Zhang and his youngest son joined Wu as puppets to justify Wu attacking Shu "though failed" Why didn't Meng Da and Liu Feng help Guan Yu? would Wei had just had Shangyong attacked or something or did they think Guan Yu had it in the bag not expecting Wu to attack?
they needed to stay there to hold it since they didn't know if they could trust Shen Dan and Guan Yu wasn't Liu Feng's commander. Liu Bei told Liu Feng to take Shangyong. Never gave any command about helping Guan Yu, and with the last bit of news from the Jing Province being Guan Yu flooding and winning against Yu Jin, they didn't think they needed to help. Speed of communication is a major problem back in the days.
@@SeriousTrivia dont know how you could blame them then, though i guess because of politics or shame someone has to take it, could just blame Sun Quan for backstabbing and, Mi Fang, Fu shiren for betraying Liu Bei, Mi Fang being his brother-in-law, he should had thought better and eventually get reassigned to Han Zhong maybe, Fa Zheng took abuse and criticism like a man for years til he had power later
@@yukimurasanada5209 As much as I personally like him as a historical character, I don't think you want more of your officers to be emulating Fa Zheng. A kingdom can really only take one man like that before they start killing each other lol. Ultimately though, Mi Fang's familial connections to Liu Bei were basically nil after his sister got captured or killed when they rebelled against Cao Cao as part of the Dong Cheng conspiracy (she disappears from history at that point). Guan Yu had already threatened to punish him when he got back from Fancheng, so Lu Meng showing up with an army made the calculus very simple. Risk fighting a superior army only to maybe be punished anyways if your side wins, or just switch sides and get rewarded for it. It's not a hard choice, really.
@@bzoner16 meh I'm obsessed with Honor and loyalty anyway, and I heard they were more so, Yu Fan made Mi Fang regret his decision, I'd have sent a message to Guan Yu that Wu is coming and advise to set up at Jiang Ling while I hold them off for what small amount of days I could, kinda go down like Zhuge Zhan or if Jiang Wei kept fighting, he did serve Liu Bei since 194-ish and was still an In-Law I dont think that goes away unless Liu Bei personally divorced Mi Shi who I thought was around still after Chang Ban....I think Zhao Yun escorted Mi Shi and Lady Gan, also didn't Guan Yu surrender to Cao Cao if Liu Bei's family were spared? so she would not die during the Dong Cheng events?
@@yukimurasanada5209 Some people were obsessed with 'honor and loyalty' others weren't. Hell, this whole video is mostly about people who very assuredly weren't. Anyways, Guan Yu knew that Wu was a threat well beforehand. They took half his territory from him in 214. He just still seemed to not take them seriously (much like he didn't take the threat of Mi Fang seriously). Guan Yu had already been thoroughly beaten by Xu Huang, so him turning around and somehow beating Lu Meng while in retreat was a far fetched idea. Sure, Mi Zhu could go down fighting a losing battle, or he could switch sides and save himself. I know we haven't technically gotten there yet, but look at what happened to Liu Feng when he stayed loyal. Not a great fate.
Whether or not Mi Fang was still legally his brother in law, if his sister isn't around anymore, there's no personal connection other than maybe his brother. Zhao Yun only escorted Lady Gan at Changban. Like I said, Lady Mi disappears from history well before then, so she was either caught up in the Dong Cheng plot (either living as a prisoner or being executed shortly thereafter) or died before that. Guan Yu never bartered for her safety or escorted her in history, only the novel.
Do you think that if Fa Zheng was still alive would he stop Liu Bei from commencing the Yiling campaign?
not likely, it might have stopped Liu Bei from losing the campaign though.
A vindictive strategy to tell the world that Liu Bei burned to death. An intriguing ploy to force a stalemate or give Shu-Han a chance to reclaim Jing.
@@SeriousTrivia After learning Liu Bei’s defeat, Zhuge Liang lamented, “If Fa Zheng was alive he would have stopped his majesty from going east. If he was not able to stop him from going, we would not have been defeated such.”
In my opinion if Fa Zheng was alive he would have convinced Liu Bei to stop the campaign altogether. Fa Zheng was Liu Bei’s favorite subject and always listen to his advice. For example, during Hanzhong campaign, Liu Bei’s troops were in danger by Cao Cao’s troops. Rocks and arrows were dropping in front of Liu Bei and when his generals asked Liu Bei to fall back, Liu Bei refused in anger. Then Fa Zheng rode his horse in front of Liu Bei towards raining arrows and rocks. Liu Bei asked Fa Zheng to fall back, however, he replied why as Lord Liu Bei is bracing arrows and rocks himself. After hearing this, Liu Bei calmed down and retreated with Fa Zheng.
@@SeriousTrivia Pretty much the same personal sentiment
In Dynasty Warriors 8: XL, Fa Zheng with a fake formation with Liu Bei as bait, basically lures the Wu Forces into triggering the fire trap with a fake retreat into an ambush. His way via his DW-portrayal, to give the pay back such debts.
Then in his hypothetical route in DW9, it's basically the same thing with Fa Zheng being more aware of the canon-historical issue of Liu Bei's camps being pushed out too far, but they instead take advantage of luring in Wu into their own ground with a fake retreat. And by that proxy he manages to dispatch Zhu Ran and then Lu Xun to prevent their fire attack from ever happening.
Furthermore, he already planned ahead in advance of Wei likely trying to attack Shu's north flank of Hanzhong via Bashu and Yangping Gate. So they were able to finish up Yiling and effectively double back to save their northern area.
So how come the Shangyong region in-game is split in two parts, with the weapon craftsman section having no direct land access to the rest of the region? The in-game map looks like it would make more sense for the weapons craftsman to be part of Ba.
when was the in game map ever accurate lol
Ou I really like this, more of this !
This series is gonna hurt!
Hello serious Trivia, i just wanna ask about this.
What if Liu Feng or Liu Yong ( Liu Bei 2nd son) become Liu Bei successor ? Do u think They are moar capable than Liu Shan?
I can't wait to see the next episode 🙏 bless this channel !
absolutely no idea how Liu Yong and Liu Li were. There is no chance Liu Feng could be considered as heir as the whole point of Liu Bei's regime was to continue the Han and you can't have that claim if you are adopted and not from the imperial bloodline
@@SeriousTrivia Zhuge Liang told Liu Bei to “remove,” Liu Feng because of his “fierce,” nature. To protect Liu Shan, Liu Bei ordered Liu Feng to commit suicide. Liu Feng’s son, Liu Lin, was spared. Liu Yong as second son, would not have support of Zhuge Liang and loyal court. In addition, Liu Feng’s mother is Changsha Liu family. Emperor Guangwu of Han is Changsha Liu family. That means through mother’s bloodline, Liu Feng is higher line of imperial Liu line than Liu Bei.
Iam eager for series about shu han and wu after wei
If Liu bei decided to invade Cao Wei instead of Dong Wu should he attack via Hanzhong or Shangyong to Punish Meng Da, it seem like road to Shangyong is closer to Xuchang and Luoyang, than the route of Zhuge Liang's norhern invasion?
The Shangyong road is really hard to march large armies which is why it was never used by either side. It would also be hard for Liu Bei to attack knowing that Dong Wu might join Wei and attack Yi when he is away
Only way to attack Shang Yong by land is from Fangling. (But it felled to Wei). From Hanzhong troops need to board ship to Shang Yong by downstream. But if invasion fails then troops will be trapped as it would be hard to retreat via upstream towards Hanzhong. In Spring of year 242, Jiang Wan planned to invade Shang Yong, however, because this reason the plan were cancelled. (Also Jiang Wan was fallen ill).
Sun Quan should have thrown Lu Meng under the bus instead of trying to pin it on Cao Cao, Lu Meng was dying anyway and not as wily as Cao Mengde. Probably still wouldn't have mattered. Of all the factions Wu is my least favourite, other than Lu Su who was the only decent guy down there. I don't understand what Sun Quan's hurry was, he had to know unlike the other 2 he had time on his side. Should have played the long game instead of trying to switch sides every other week, look how trying to out think everyone went for Zhou Yu.
Historically, Sun Quan had good reasons to think he could get away with it. He was stronger than Liu Bei in terms of numbers, and Liu Bei and Cao Cao would *never* ally against him because the two hated each other. He was the wild card, and so long as he believed he could protect his own regions, he knew that in the end, Shu needed him as an ally more than he needed them. This sorta got thrown for a loop when Cao Cao died. If Liu Bei had even temporarily allied with Cao Pi against him, or even just timed his invasion later, he might have been in mortal danger, but alas, Liu Bei declaring himself emperor prematurely scuttled that.
Furthermore, Sun Quan really could not throw the man who had won Jingzhou under the bus without pissing off his entire military. Lu Meng was by far the best general he had had since Zhou Yu (and arguably even better in some ways), and his near total victory on the project that Zhou Yu had started over a decade prior set a precedent. Wu, more than the other kingdoms, leaned on its nobles and officers for personal support.
At the end of the day, it's hard to argue with the results. Sun Quan got basically everything he wanted.
Not only what Riven said, but this was when Liu Bei was setting himself up as the savior of the Han while Sun Quan only held power in Wu at the time. There's no guarantee that Liu Bei wouldn't have turned on him eventually.
期待下一集
Oooooh Spicy
Guan Yu stole supplies from & insulted Sun Quan on numerous occasions but somehow Sun Quan is the bad guy for betraying him. Yeah, Guan Yu had it coming.
I am sure the love lost started with Sun Quan encroached on the Jing Province in 215 and took back the southern commanderies.
If you view things from Guan Yu's perspective, he is serving a descendant of the Han imperial line seeking to restore his country fighting against a usurper in Cao Wei. Meanwhile Sun Quan who is suppose to be an ally and former in-law to Liu Bei (and honestly just an opportunistic warlord seeking to exploit the Han chaos) is not helping at all and just backstabbing all the time.
Of course, this also meant from Sun Quan's perspective, he was just serving his own self interest. But of course if you make this argument then everyone in history can justify their actions as righteous. So framing is important. If Wu went on to win the whole thing using the gains they got from these opportune and justified moves, then no one today would mock Sun Quan. He would be the hero who rose from the chaos of the Late Han and formed a new Dynasty under his name, but instead, he failed to capitalize on any of these moves.
1. Pulls over miracle defense at Chibi (gets a costly win in Jing only to have Liu Bei take the benefits due to the political marriage and Zhou Yu's death). Meanwhile, Sun Quan fails for the first time in Hefei.
2. Still grudging that he didn't get enough out of the win after Chibi, Sun Quan takes back the southern portion of Jing in 215 when Liu Bei was in the Yi Province. Liu Bei marches back and Sun Quan agrees to sign the Xiang River Treatise and the border is confirmed with a renewed alliance.
3. Liu Bei goes back to fight Cao Cao in Hanzhong while Sun Quan takes this opportunity to attack Hefei when Cao Cao is away. Guess what Sun Quan fails again at Hefei despite overwhelming numerical advantage.
4. Now with Hefei not working, Sun Quan turns to Guan Yu who is having unprecedented success against Cao Cao in the Jing Province.
5. Successfully kills Guan Yu, claims just Liu Bei portion of the Jing Province. Tries to defect Guan Yu's execution to Cao Cao but fails.
6. Liu Bei comes marching, Sun Quan is so scared that he publicly becomes a vassal to the newly created Wei Dynasty and Cao Pi.
7. Another miracle defense thanks to Lu Xun in Yiling, and Sun Quan immediately regret his vassalage as Wei and Sun Quan goes to war after Sun Quan blocks the request to have his son move to Luoyang as a political hostage.
8. Due to pressure from the Wei attacks and Shu Han's olive branch after Liu Bei's death, Sun Quan recreates the alliance with Shu Han.
Basically, he is an opportunistic regional warlord who managed to eventually create a Kingdom 8 years after the other two due to the geographical isolation granted by the Yangtze River (and a huge military mistake by Cao Xiu). Never did much with any of the opportunities that came his way and thus is why people look down on his moves as backstabs.
If we have a sport analogy, Sun Quan is the crafty football player who get a great defensive tackle out of nowhere in the midfield. He has the ball and his striker is running clean ahead with a open look on the goal, but because he is selfish, he keeps the ball and eventually dribble it too much until the defenders come back. In the end, nothing happens. That was pretty much Wu during Three Kingdoms. The third kingdom that was just big enough to help keep balance with the other two but never a real threat to do anything. And then the moment, one of the other two went down, they were done for.
@@SeriousTriviaWeird that’s how I feel about Liu Bei’s faction. Back stabs his allies whenever it benefits him (Liu Zhang is the most obvious example), abandons his family whenever he was outmanoeuvred (Changban), takes credit for the victories of others (Chibi was largely Zhou Yu’s baby). So yeah my opinion of Liu Bei & his two bros is not very high.
It's all going to be about intentions. When you view history from a Chinese perspective, Liu Bei was trying to save a failing Emperor. By Confucian values, he was being a good member of his family (the imperial clan) and a patriot. On top of all this, he literally started out by selling straw shoes in his twenties to making a name for himself as an chancellor for a princedom in his thirties. Then a lot of ups and downs where he did exploit his positions repeatedly due to the fact that he was well liked and a member of the imperial clan. He jumped from one ship to another until finally he got the ultimate prize in the Yi Province by betraying one of his kin. The argument that they had to use there is Liu Zhang was unpopular (as members of his court basically setup Liu Bei's entry into Shu and betrayed Liu Zhang) and that Liu Zhang was not using the resources in Shu Han to try to restore the Han. But ultimately, Liu Bei managed to extend the Han through his government in the Shu lands for another 40+ years and if you are viewing history from the Han perspective, he was doing things for a good cause.
Like if Liu Zhang and Liu Bei both goes into the underworld and meet Liu Bang, you think Liu Bang is going to be mad at Liu Bei for taking Liu Zhang's land to resist the usurping Cao clan? Especially since Liu Zhang got to live out his days safely after the takeover, which when it comes to imperial clan intra-conflicts for power historically is quite rare.
But if you want to take an outside look and just judge people on human morals, then surprise surprise, everyone in these chaotic times (in the past, in the present and in the future) are going to be scumbags, selfish, and faithless (because these things get people ahead).
hei serious trivia, im frustated
i want shadow runner from caocao, but i cant capture him
i managed to reduce caocao to only 1 army and he not have any county anymore, so the faction would destroyed once i fight him
i played as liu hong (the emperor)
my question is the item (shadow runner) would lost forever?
sorry to ask in wrong sub-categorized of your channel, but i had googling it everywhere cant find the answer or solution
thanx in advance
if you wipe his faction then yes the item would be stored in the dead faction inventory and lost forever. You can try to vassalize him and then annex his faction (it would cost you a lot of treachery but guarantees you the item)
@@SeriousTrivia thanks so much for your reply, i would try it
Hei i managed to get the shadow runner, im quite frustated so i load game several time fighting caocao over and over again till finally got it
❤
Luxun totally rocks 🪨 time to crush the used car 🚗 salesman🤯
Was liu bei more powerful than sun quan at this point? In terms of troops
hard to say, the battle itself was pretty even on both sides, but that doesn't reflect reserve forces
With the destruction of the army in Jingzhou and the loss of that province, I'd say probably not, but Liu Bei did have an advantage of having less territory to guard. The only other real threat he had to deal with was the north, which could be guarded by a very small garrison thanks to the defensibility of the mountain passes. Sun Quan still had to maintain defenses throughout his very long border with Wei (which got lengthened thanks to his recent conquests). So while Sun Quan had more men overall, his strategic position probably meant that he couldn't translate it into a huge local advantage.