Episode 29: Misunderstood Topics in Reefkeeping w/ Doug Dorrat (Frag Farm UK)
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- Опубліковано 11 жов 2024
- Adam sits down with Doug Dorrat to clear up some common misconceptions in the reef-keeping hobby. They cover topics from alkalinity, protein skimming, trace elements in salt mixes to the differences between ICP-MS and ICP-OES testing. Doug Dorrat is the owner and operator of Frag Farm UK. He contributes to product development, as well as offering his services as a certified ICP consultant for Fauna Marin (UK and USA).
Frag Farm Links:
www.fragfarm.c...
/ fragfarmuk
/ fragfarmltd
Frag Garage Links:
/ beyondthereefpodcast
fraggarage.ca/
/ fraggarage
/ @fraggarage5922
/ fraggarage
Beyond the Reef Merch!
fraggarage.ca/...
Great conversation, as usual!!
I think that Mr Dorrat speaks with absolutes about anecdotal information making him sound like he is an expert chemist when in reality he is guessing like the rest of us 😂. The reality is that people run great systems with Kalk and Soda ash.
Adam - I love your podcast and it is my favorite source of reefing information. I think it would be safe to say that a large portion of the episodes / advice on your channel is specifically discussing systems that are growing corals to sell. Generally, this seems like the best advice for everyone to follow as these are the people making money off growing corals. But I do wonder how much of the advice would change if it was aimed at the hobbyist trying to keep a nice Display Tank in their house. Possibly it’s an episode idea: comparing and contrasting advice for the home DT vs advice for the coral growing business.
Yeah, that’s totally valid! This is why I plan to do more tank/hobbyist feature series videos.. definitely open to suggestions.. cheers
I could listen to Doug all day. Great episode!!!
New drop!! Behind the reef is my favorite reefing podcast that helps me get through my work day lol.
Joe Yaiullo not only doses kalk, he doses slurry. Long Island Aquarium has the most incredible exhibit anywhere, it rivals nature. Can't argue his success using kalk.
Stunning corals in the background video, just wondering who’s they are, frag farm?
@@davidturner3461 thanks! Those are mine.. didn’t have any time to get anything from Doug..
Finally a new drop !! Lol. You should be doing these twice a week. Nice work Adam!
hahah I'll try to stick to twice a month at the very least!
If corals do their deposition at night, why is my alk consumption three times higher during the day?
It's definitely a good question. I personally think the growth happens towards the second half of the photoperiod, but I will dig for more information or find a guest who knows for sure.
Fascinating content, have we got it wrong all these years, re alk stability and dosing, or is this an incremental step forward in our understanding.
Well done thanks guys.
Happy Friday!
I've ran cheato for 15 years. I find it the most reliable way to export nutrients and raise ph at night.
Yes, so did I. Then I started to understand more about the side effects. If you regularly water change then you are going to be diluting the nasties.
I’ve been doing the bolus method for 20 years
I dump my bicarbonate in the morning before I leave for the day it is between 1 and 3 dkh per day I guess the old way is the new way
Exactly. It's a new 'old' method. The difference is our understanding of how the minor and trace elements are used with the Bolus dose.
Im still waiting for an explaination to the problem that Fauna Marins Alk dosing instructions are configured to carbonate, not bicarbonate. This leads folk into thinking they are dosing a lot more Alk than they actually are, which is not good in quite a few ways.
So the £65 ICP MS tests on the market actually use OES for the majority of the results? The £35 extra is just for a select few minor trace element results in a greater resolution. Interesting! Had never seen this mentioned before!
HI! I have not seen the Video, but out ICP-MS test has all the "ICP-Parameters" measured by ICP-MS. Parameters that can only be measured by Ion chromatography or can be better measured by Ion Chromatography (compared to ICP techniques) are measured on the Ion Chromatography machines. Only the "RO water check" is measured on the OES machine. Could you please point out the timestamp of the video? Best regards, Christoph
@@Oceamo1:27:00
@@Oceamothanks for sharing that Christoph, my point was that there is a misconception that the entire test is achieved with MS.
Very confusing. He never gets to the solution. Seems we just need to lower the level of H+ in the water versus inside the coral making it easy to eject the H+ from the coral. How do we do that simply?
But what is the ideal (or better)nitrate reducing method then other than water changes ? (for those who need additional help and water changes are not enough)
because Algae reactor or refugium are bad because of toxins and carbon dosing of any other similar method reduces pH and adding Kalk to combat that isn't ideal, then what is the better way to approach maintain low level of nitrate, phosphate and also keep other parameters in healthy range ?
I have more than 30 tanks running refugiums and never had any issue. On very special tanks I am running full Triton method and I have all kind of sps, but some montiporas are more than 70cm ...and these tanks are more than 7 years old... so this story about algea toxins is bullshit. Other is bacteria, which is even worse....
Is there a video link on the method use of dosing? Bolus method thanks.
www.faunamarin.de/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/BOLUS_EN_How-To-Use_24_05_24__.pdf
we also did a stream on it: ua-cam.com/users/liveTIFv53tOAnM?si=de2zNXUw-fojDtGq
👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
It seems like Adam was pressured into this due to his connection with Fauna Marin, and honestly, Doug Dorrat’s comments are baffling. The idea that pests like flatworms or white bugs are actually symbionts is just mind-blowing in all the wrong ways.
If someone’s going to make such bold claims, why not back them up with solid evidence? Where are the videos or pictures of the farm? I think we all know why they’re missing.
FM doesn't dictate anything anything I do on the podcast.. Claude said "I have no rules". Take or leave what you wish from this convo.
I think Doug's point about pests is that if the coral has everything it needs for optimal health, these things can co-exist, as they do in nature.. That said, the ocean has a much better diversity of natural pest control vs our tanks. 'Symbiotic' would definitely not be the right term, I agree.
@@fraggarage5922I don’t agree with the tone and assumptions of the OP. That said, I think it would be good to disclose at the beginning of the episode whether Doug and FM/Claude have any financial affiliation/relationship whatsoever (assuming you know, or if you don’t know, tell us that and Doug can share if he would like). I think either answer to that question is something that a rational viewer would want to know and would take into consideration when watching the episode.
@@timjohnson3913 Dear Tim Why he should if there is no We do not pay anything to Adam or to Doug the only thing i do is that i take time with them to support and help. Adam as also Doug have to buy their products at the distributor as any other costumer also. We have only 2 sponsorships with. ReefBum and Neythrop which are also officially claimed there. We show and provide a methode , everybody is free to use or not or try to understand what we work out and discuss about new knowledge. We provide this knowledge for free based on our nearby 40 years of work, as a marketleader in europe and the company doing the most ICP Tests worldwide with a over 200k Tests Database and professonial Ai data analysis.
Well dang it, kalk is the only way I can keep my pH above 8!!!
your tank is addicted!
I would be curious if there are more reports of kalk working...until it doesn't.. I believe I am experiencing this in my main system, so I may make some changes and of course update/discuss on the podcast.
@@fraggarage5922 isn't there a world where you can combine both??lol
I have been dosing kalk at night and Bolus in the morning. Everything is looking wonderful.
@@YazannreefYour corals look great.
@SahinurUK Thanks, buddy!
For the record. I have tested the bolus method stans alone and sure the Alk in the morning didn't shoot up after the big dose, but my PH over all tanked. I was running 8.4 ph constantly before, and with Bolus, it was going down to 7.7 PH!!!!! My growth and color was not good while I was doing Bolus on its own.
I stopped it and went back to Kalkwasser and everything rebounded.
Now here is where I thought of utilizing the bolus method in conjuction with Kalk:
I dose Kalk at night as my man source of Alkalinity and Calcium since the beginning of time, I also started incorporating dosing trace elements ( moonshine) during the day. So what I did is I backed out a little on Kalkwasser dosage at night so instead of pegging the PH at 8.4 at night I brought it down to 8.29 PH. Now I can compensate in the morning with a bolus dose for the difference of the Alkalinity i needed to stay at my target value.
When PH=8.29 my KH fluctuates between 8dkh and 8.4dkh.
When dosing Bolus in the morning, that adds another 0.5DKH .
So I keep the dkh at around 8.5dkh and 8.9dkh while maintaining a PH of 8.29 at night and up to 8.4 during the day ( natural PH rise of photosynthesis)
The only reason I did all this so I can do this technically a 3 part with trace elements so I can ditch the moonshiners method.
Win win in my book.
Hope this was helpful.
Loved every single BTR episode. But this one was a complete waste of time lol Get Dong on. He has the best explanations about what Kh. We assume KH swing is bad because It jumps when ur tank is doing bad because corals stop consuming KH. So when you test when your tank doing bad of course the KH would be high.
@@hoandinh8891 that’s fair! I’d definitely like to get Dong on at some point! Next episode is Golden State Corals and then probably Golden Basket :)
Great episode. Would be nice to hear how bolus compares to DDs Phplus system
@@o_9211 pH plus is sodium hydroxide and precipitates like a champ. Hence their new H2P nonsense! Essentially an admition of this bundled with the completely incorrect statement of controlling pH and Alk independently, which is simply not possible.
Give Bolus a shot, I'm 8 months in now and it's been phenomenal
There’s always one. If I do what he said we would be moving backwards. I get substantial amount of growth and coloration because of my stable alkalinity. We have moved so much forward this kind of “ideology” would move us backward.
Look, I don’t know where you’re getting your info, but what you’re saying about alkalinity, pH, and polyp extension is way off. Reefing isn’t about random opinions-it’s about proven, consistent care practices that keep our corals healthy. If you actually want to understand how to manage these things, there’s plenty of solid information out there. But don’t spread misconceptions that can mess up someone else’s tank.
How did you come up with the conclusion that your coral growth is in anyway related to stable alkalinity. What scale are you using for stability is it weekly daily hourly by the second fractions of a second. Your scale is surely different than the animals in your system stability in your eyes may not be so stable at a smaller scale same way at a larger scale If you dose once a day the rest of the day is much more stable than dosing every hour or so causing a fluctuation each time
@@weaver3481 I understand the question about what scale of stability we’re using, but when we talk about stable alkalinity in reef aquariums, we’re referring to maintaining levels within a narrow range to avoid large fluctuations that corals, particularly SPS corals like Acropora, are sensitive to. This has been proven over time by many experienced hobbyists, myself included, who’ve seen the direct correlation between stable alkalinity and improved coral growth and health.
The idea that dosing once a day might seem “more stable” because it’s less frequent doesn’t hold up if you think about the fluctuations that occur between doses. A large, single dose causes a significant spike in alkalinity, followed by a gradual decline until the next dose. That’s actually a bigger fluctuation than dosing more frequently in smaller amounts, which keeps alkalinity more stable throughout the day.
From my experience, and from what many in the reefing community have found, frequent, smaller doses smooth out those peaks and valleys. This mimics the natural, stable conditions of a reef much better than a single large dose. Corals don’t just respond to what happens over the course of a day or week, they respond to the environment on much shorter timescales, and even small swings in alkalinity can stress them out, leading to slower growth, tissue recession, or worse.
Ultimately, stability isn’t just about minimizing overall change over a long period but reducing short-term fluctuations. And this has been a key factor in the success many hobbyists and I have seen with thriving, vibrant reefs.
It doesn’t “spike” like you would assume it does go up initially but plateau at a much lower reading than the amount you actually add and stays at that level for many hours while everything is photosynthesising . It is very odd how it works but having a completely flat stable alk reading throughout that entire critical time is a much more “stable “ than fluctuating every hour or so .