Great video! I love how you're not afraid to express your subjectivity here. I feel like French composers have been done a disservice here though - Saint-Saëns is underrated and Fauré wrote MANY amazing piano works! (I recommend Hamelin's album of his Barcarolles and Nocturnes). Poulenc too - he is one of my favourites - amazing chamber music. And my favourite French composer of all is actually Alkan - really underrated composer that is gradually becoming more well known. His Concerto for solo piano and Symphonie for solo piano are 2 of my favourite epic pieces. Entertaining list though and it's good to embrace the subjectivity! it's a much more fun video that way, rather than trying to minimize offense to anyone! 😂
Alkan is really underrated these days, he should really get more recognition, his pieces are amazing, his Douze études dans tous les tons mineurs for example is in my opinion a work of all times.
Glad you appreciate it! Clearly I've offended some people, lol. I think most who are offended probably didn't listen to the part about practically all the composers are A or S tier, but I have to rank them relative to each other and someone has to fill the lower ranks. I did a pre-made tier list, and it did have a lot of French composers. My musical style has always leaned a little more Baroque, Clasical, and Romantic, and also more German than French style. So it did end up piling on a little because there were just so many French composers on the list. It makes it seem like I don't enjoy French music though, which isn't true. Even if I prefer the one style doesn't mean I hate the other. But I do admit sometimes videos like this have the effect of piling on. Like Schönburg. I could go on a 10 minute rant about the intricacies of what I like and don't like about him (I took 20th century harmony in undergrad and graduate school and LOVED it). However, I don't love listening to his music much. My default style is to ramble and talk 10 minutes about each composer, but the audience wouldn't stick around for 4 hours for me to explain each composer. So, I oversimply some and the nature of that is some composers get the short end of the stick. Thanks for checking out the video and your well though out comment!
@@ryanabshier It's more fun to have a slightly controversial video anyway, at least it's your honest take. And for all my defence of French composers - I'm actually not THAT massively into Debussy. I do love some of his works but he's not a favourite. I prefer the style of Ravel way more and I find it funny how the two are always compared side-by-side like they're meant to be similar - but I hear them as having completely different styles.
@@Ziad3195 I do. But I wanted roughly the same number of composers per tier. So while I do like him, not more than the composers above him on the list.
@@ryanabshier how dare you?!! What you have done to Ravel is unacceptable. Jeux d'eau, miroirs, sonatine, pavane, piano concertos and many more. Ravel has few pieces but each one approaches perfection. Better than lizst, chopin and the boring romantics for sure. S tier for Ravel. You don't know how angry I am with you and your tier list.
@@orochimaruhatake4045ok buddy you can maybe say ravel composes better than liszt and make an argument but u are absolutely delusional thinking hes better than chopin
Schubert is a minimum A level composer as he is, after Beethoven, the second greatest piano sonata composer. He also wrote the beautiful 8 impromptus and the Wanderer Fantasy. You erred to classify Schubert as a B level.
That was a tough one. I really tried to keep somewhat equality in the totals from each category, so the rankings kept value. So I guess that means I slightly prefer Schumann and Grieg, because if Schubert went up one of them would have to fall for me. But yeah, Schubert hanging out down in B is hard to see. Before I started filming I didn't anticipate such a crunch at the S and A tiers.
@@ryanabshier , I take issue with the Schubert classification because, besides his piano music, Schubert was also a great writer of chamber music, lieder, and symphonic works. He needs to be at least classified as A level. And Rachmaninoff greater than Schubert??!! That makes no sense to me. But thank you for sharing your opinion.
Thanks! Glad you liked it. Mostly just want people to have a good time chatting about composers. Yeah, you know, he's the only one that looking back on I regret cutting a little. I did it mostly as a joke (I like butchering French pronunciation because it's sooooo incredibly difficult), but of the people I cut he actually did contribute quite a bit to the piano. I mentioned in another comment replay somewhere that I simply don't know his music well enough, so I would have given him a generic C/B just out of ignorance and it would have been not that helpful. The take away here i think is I need to give his music another shot.
Obviously my list would be different because our tastes would be different, and i respect different opinions. But to hear that Schönberg and serialism are just "garbage" is not offensive, no one cares, it's just ignorant. I don't enjoy much that style of music either, but it's not as you make it sound, just random notes in random keys "experimenting" (what kind of experiment would that be?) with obsessive music science. They were not just idiots, they were not just making random noise to seek for attention (especially because most of the attention they received was negative, like from you), they were not just doctors playing with math. Schönberg and his school opened the doors of harmony to infinity in classical music, they were much more revolutionary than our beloved Beethoven could ever wish to be. Where you fall, is thinking that music is supposed to "sound good", and if it doesn't it's garbage. Music is an art, and like every art it is first of all a language, a way of communicating; and not every word, not every feeling, not every philosophy can be spoken with nice simple tonal words. Not every poem has to rhyme, not every painting has to be pleasing to the eye (in fact, in the same time as Schönberg, Cubism, Expressionism, Dadaism, Futurism, a lot of "ugly"-looking painting styles were born, breaking the boundaries of visual arts forever). And you saying that Schönberg is garbage is just as ignorant as saying that Picasso is. Just to put in perspective. That whole historic period was going through the deepest artistic revolutions we had ever witnessed, and it was the mirror of a confused, atonal, ugly, tired, decadent society that was seeing all of its old traditions crumble in front of an upcoming mechanic, cold, capitalistic, indifferent, insignificant society. Serialism and atonality can be used profoundly and beautifully, and they do express feelings too, they just are very complicated, harsh, depressed, hopeless, deep and real feelings, that you may not be getting. Everything has its context. That is all i have to say, and mind that i don't mean to insukt you or 'hate' when i say "ignorant". To ignore literally means 'to not know', and that's how you sound when you say Schönberg is garbage, like someone that simply doesn't fully know. It is your opinion and i respect it, but it's an ignorant one
@@mellcrawlerYou're entitled to your ignorant opinion too, I won't judge you can't be bothered. At least you're not trying to pass your content as educational
@@mellcrawlerbut here, good atonal piece by shoenberg: piano concerto klavierstücke, (op 42 andante is a good part) good non atonal piece by shoenberg: insights (op 7: nicht zu rasch best bit)
open your mind a little and look up picasso's early oil works, they were very impressive and he had a great grasp on lighting and contrast, he is definitely not an awful painter in any academic sense and then he took his skills in a different direction and created very influential and original works so idk what you're on about really
Lol, yup. Not arguing much on that one. I mention in the video my challenge was to balance to rating though. But yeah, I say basically all of them are S tiers if compared to other composers.
Placing Mozart (a top 3 composer in almost all serious rankings by acclaimed conductors) below Rachmaninoff (who only wrote a handful of genuine masterpieces) and Chopin (who composed almost exclusively for the piano, thus causing him to have very little instrumental range) is just outrageous. Although Rachmaninoff did compose two of some of the finest piano concertos ever (2 and 3), and Chopin some of finest pieces for the solo piano, Mozarts raw output, experimentation, range, and refinement expressed in his over 600 works (which includes symphonies, operas, sonatas + concertos of every which variety, chamber music, and religious works) outweighs Chopin and Rachmaninoff any day of the week.
@@jonathan130 "Id say 90% of the population would think chopin sounds cooler and better" There's no way in hell the average person, if given samples of the best of Mozart and Chopin, would choose Chopin over Mozart. One of Mozart's primary niches in his music is his highly accesable and satisfactory appeal. There's probably not a person alive who wouldn't enjoy a single Mozart piece. The same can't be said for Chopin.
@@patricksarama4963 uh ok Mr opinion. But the reality is correct from my view. There are many Mozart pieces I don’t like, the same with Chopin. People think mozart is boring and cheesy. I don’t, I love Mozart but that’s just how it is from my experience. No one I know likes mozart, but many people have a slight interest in Chopin. The most famous classical melody on youtube is his e b major nocturne for a good record. It is beautiful and isn’t constructed in the same harmonic style and structure as mozart. It feels more natural and emotional. Mozart barely uses colorful and unusual chords and phrasing in his music and his chord progressions are just I-V most of the time. People like when music has a hook to them nowadays and chopin is far greater at that than mozart. His etudes, take his torrent, black keys, winter wind etude and many more, are much more interesting and unique than any mozart piece and has a certain intense hook. His torrent etude literally has a bass drop. His melodies are objectively more expressive too. Chopin only wrote for the piano but that doesn’t take away his greatestness. In the world of classical music, Mozart is more recognized than Chopin. But in the modern world, he doesn’t stand a chance against Chopin. But Mozart is objectively a greater composer if we look what he has done on paper.
the only thing i find odd is grieg being ranked above haydn, schumann, liszt, mozart, mendelssohn debussy and ravel (atleast i think these are in order too?)
Thanks for checking out the video! Hmm, I don't think the rows are necessarily in order (though I might have ordered the first row). I do love Grieg and feel like he has a cool "niche" factor, relative to some other composers. However, I recognize that he is probably on the weaker side of the A tiers for this list. I've considered doing a straight up top 10 or top 20. It would be tough to assign an absolute order, but also pretty fun.
Mozart on A tier you gotta be kidding me. Jupiter Symphony, Don Giovanni, Magic Flute, 40th sympohny, Requiem, one breathtaking master piece after the next. The Jupiter symphony has 5 movements all beautifully intertwined what other composer can compete? He's also the most prolific of all composers. Should be an automatic S.
I mentioned at the beginning that I was ranking only based on piano output, so hope that clears it up. I know many people feel he's strong enough with just piano rep as well, but I happen to have him in my top 10, but not top 5 piano composers.
Yeah, as I mentioned in the video i tried to make all the categories the same size. So only 5 S tiers. If you move some up others have to go down. It's a tough challenge, but I think I'll keep my degrees 🤣
8:30 do secondary school in Singapore, a “B” is a >= 60% 😂😂😂 (“A2” is a >= 70% and “A1”is a >= 75%, “C” is a >=50%) So it’s A1 A2 B3 B4 C5 C6 D7 E8 F9 where each grade goes down by 5%, starting at 75% for the best grade (This for secondary sch btw, primary school is different I think)
After just three notes you just KNOW it's Clair de Lune. To me, that's genius. Schuberts Impromptus are a must listen too. I don't rank the great composers, I'm just so happy there were so many of them, and I get to hear their masterpieces. The greatest legacy has to be the 32 Beethoven piano sonatas. I love Debussys Preludes too.
Hi, thanks for checking out the video. I used a pre-made tier list and Scarlatti wasn't on there and the website makes it really hard to add anyone. But yeah, he should be on there.
Not having Tchaikowsky (or even mentioning him once) in here I see as an oversight... so I will wait for this list to be completed in the future. However, if this choice is intentional I regard your list, and sensibilities, to be E tier - with good behaviour a possible D.
Its odd I know, but I used a pre-made tier list and didn't add any of my own. I don't know why he wasn't included, but possibly because the tierlist I used was not piano specific.
Lol, you're the first to point that out. He lost a lot of weight for the photo 🤣🤣🤣 I just used a premade tierlist on and wasn't really focused on him because I was removing him. I wonder who it is? At first I thought thought it might be Ashkenazy, but not so much when I zoomed in. Thanks for checking out the video and the kind words. Glad you enjoyed it!
Mahler stinks!!! Lol, not really. I'm just ranking composers by their piano repertoire so unless I'm mistaken he barely wrote solo piano music, or not at all.
Thanks for the hillarious anecdote about Handel! But I have to ask: Why do you consider Saint-Saens to not be a piano composer? He wrote many etudes, a truckload of salon pieces and 5! piano concertos, was Professor of Piano at the Paris conservatory. I can really recommend no.5 , the "egyptian" concerto by Saint-Saens!
This one I need to explain. I realized in editing that I didn't give an explanation during the video and this comment is well deserved. Of all the composers on this list, I know the least about Saint-Saens. We all are going to have different relative strengths and gaps, but my lack of knowledge of his music is pretty big so I don't feel I can adequately rank him. Part of the reason for that is I honestly haven't enjoyed what I've heard. But, I can't give him a D or C tier without having listened and studied his music more. So I just thought it was best to leave off. Basically all the other composers I've listened to extensively and have at least played around with their music (so I have my own opinions separate from recordings), but his I never played for myself. I'll check out that concerto, I'm down for discovering more. Thanks for the recommendation! Basically, I cut him out of respect of realizing I can't properly rank him, but then failed to give a good reason in the video. 🤪
One criticism I've heard made a lot against Saint-Saens's music is that it's mostly all shallow technique and no originality/heart, similar to Medtner or Mendelssohn. Personally though, I think a lot of what I've heard of it is gorgeous...
But but but but but....yeah I know. I didn't want too many composers in S tier, and I do like Chopin and Brahms more than Liszt. Maybe I should redo this and add in 20 not as good composers (like Clementi) to bump up everyone else 😀
Messiaen is one of the greatest composer i know..... And Liszt has to be on S tier, becuase he invented atonality, impressionism and pushed foward music like no other. Plus has one of the most original harmonies ever. There should be SS-tier, in which has to be Medtner and Scriabin. Medtner is composer that has the best form, structure, tonal harmony and Has the MOST original thematic work ever. And Scriabin is the biggest inovator, has great structure, harmony is absolutelly stunning, and he has made awesome concept of atonal music!
I do not disagree about Liszt, he got moved down simply because I didn't want too many S tier composers. If I included 20-30 "lessor" composers everyone here would get bumped up for sure. Interesting though, many comments want to see Liszt dropped, but it seems like you value later composers a lot. That's cool, as many people value the older ones more.
I already know this video will piss off everyone lmao, we take ourselves too seriously as classical music bros let’s be real. Like yeah I love Messiaen and Mendelssohn but everyone is entitled to their taste. Enjoyed the video.
He is rather remarkable. Such an output in such a short life (and not just piano either). It makes you think, what if Beethoven had died at age 31. His last piano sonata would have probably been #15 Op. 28. It also makes you curious how Schubert's style would have evolved, considering he was a very early Romantic composer, yet only 10-15 years older than many of the other Romantics (Schumann, Chopin, Liszt, Mendelssohn, Wagner). Thanks for checking out the video!
@@evanwyatt2862 🤣, so true. Thanks for the comment, it really brightened. When I filmed this tierlist I never anticipated 1. It doing so well. I make a lot of videos on piano technique and practice, so this is the minority of videos for me. Like, for the most part I try to help people get better at piano. I don't just make tierlists every day for views. But I thought, hey, this could be a fun video to watch (because I like watching tierlists). And 2, yeah, people writing "I'm offended by the placement of..." Like, if anything my picks are boring and probably too typical. But they aren't facts, it's who I like to play and listen to. You can like someone different. Again, thanks for the comment!
@ryanabshier Exactly. You're not claiming that one of these composers is better than another. It's about enjoyment. For example, I don't care for Rachmaninoff too much because of his melodic skills, but obviously, he's still amazing. His control of texture and harmonie can not be replicated! Thanks for the spectacular video again!
You can't. In the classical world, you must say that Bach is the greatest composer of all time while loving all other lesser good composers because they all wrote music you're not authorized to dislike. If you don't like it, you must study it until you like it. Your personal taste doesn't matter here.
Chopin did something similar like Bartok. He implemented polish folk dance/music in his own pieces. When he was younger he visited Polish villages and listened to their music and wrote similar melodies in this own pieces
🤣🤣🤣 oversimplification on my part for sure, didn't want the video to be 4 hours with a long rant on each composer. You, however, have the best comment about my Schönburg dig!
Please explore Prokofiev more. His piano concertos are pretty amazing. His output for piano may not be enough -- he did write some wonderful string works -- but not that much piano. His Vision Fugitives is worth a listen. He does have an interesting mix of bombast and nostalgia.
Trust me, I know. ☹ Why did I impose stupid rules like balancing our the tiers, lol. I guess from the list that makes Liszt somewhere in my 6-10 favorite composer.
Okay, most of your list is fine. And you do admit the subjectivity of the list, that it very often reflects simply your taste. Fair enough. But you also expect serious disagreements. I have two. Well, they're really more than serious. I very much disagree with your evaluation of Schönberg. First he didn't write a lot of piano music, and it's not what he's famous for. He might not should be on the list at all. But since he's there . . . . I admit that his Suite for Piano, Op. 25, is tough. But I really like his Three Pieces for Piano, Op. 11. And his Six Little Pieces for Piano, Op. 19 are beautiful. Some of them are charming. And neither Op. 11 nor Op. 19 are "scientific" in the slightest. Op. 25 was transitional to the 12-tone pieces to come. Even more horrible is that Scriabin didn't even make the list! Schönberg is on the list, and Scriabin isn't? You can't be serious. Sure there are the five symphonies, but most of his output was piano music. In my view, he's right up there with Beethoven. Seriously, his Sonata No. 3 is a show-stopper, and the last five sonatas are transcendent. And for an encore, let's have his Etude, Op. 8 No. 12. And if sheer output is a criterion, as I might have implied, I guess it's only fair to mention Czerny. But he did let his teaching pieces get in the way of realizing his artistic potential.
@@ryanabshier Well, that explains it. I wrote a big long comment, half about Scriabin and half about Schönberg. A quarter of my post was that Schönberg was even on the list at all, and another quarter was that Scriabin wasn't on the list at all. Then I set out defending both composers. I posted it, I guess, 45 mins. ago, and then I set out to see if anyone else was as offended as I was about the inclusion and the omission. So I've found a Scriabin fan, maybe two.
It's devastating that you've missed out Scriabin from this list. It's Scriabin who takes to Chopin's tradition in both melodic style, texture, and form far more than Rachmaninov whose solo piano music is more textural and rhythmic. Agree with most of your other rankings though. I can see why you put Liszt and Mozart in A tier. Liszt is great but leans towards style over substance (though the substance is great too, just not as much), and even though I prefer the charm of Mozart's sonatas to Beethoven's in general, I can't deny that Beethoven's are more significant piano works and he does a great deal more with the form.
Yeah, not an easy job. You're always insulting someone by moving someone else up. Cool idea though, but then people would argue about which piece i call their greatest 🤣
Yeah, there are a few unfortunate omissions. Though I'm super thankful for whoever put the tier list together for everyone to use, I'm sure it's tough to decide who to include.
And was rather harsh of you to put Mendelssohn in the C category. And you also lost me when you demoted Schubert from the B list down to the C list that was uncalled for.
Hi Greg, sorry to rank your favorite composers so low. I hope you saw the part of the video where I mentioned balancing the tiers. So for Mendelssohn or Schubert to move up someone else would have to drop down. Difficult decisions for sure, but if I gave every composer an A or S it wouldn't mean much. Hope that clears things up.
On the top there can be only 2, Bach and Beethoven, then on A Handel (even Beethoven consider him the greatest composer, how he can be on C!), Chopin, Scarlatti, Wagner, Scriabin (we are talking the most original and creative here)- B Mozart, Schubert (both living longer may had evolved and be on the top) Rameau, Vivaldi, Couperin, Strauss, Rachmaninoff, Debussy C - Haydn, Prokofiev, Schumann, Liszt,
Interesting. I'm curious if you are ranking that all around, or just piano music. In this video i just ranked based on only piano music, so that's why Handel is so low and Chopin/Liszt are so high.
Oh man, titles are hard. I included solo piano and concertos. So if I wanted to be completely accurate I could say "Ranking Classical Composers based on their piano music including concertos" but that's too long. I did say my method at the beginning of the video however. But yeah, trying to sum up a video in a few words and always balancing being succinct with accuracy is one of the least fun things I do. I would not make thumbnails and titles in a heartbeat if I could.
My guy, you understand that Mendelssohn basically kept the legacy of Bach and barque music in general. It's quite possible that without Mendelssohn we wouldn't really have widespread Bach music. But I forgive this carnage towards Mendelssohn. 😊
This list is optimal for hobbyists and pianist only He judge composers tier with good melody and harmony only. Most important orchestration, avant garde and non major piano composers are put at rank B or below, lol
@@triumphantmichael yeah, Handel as an overall composer would be higher. Just for his keyboard/piano contributions, there's just not much to work with. I do have a few of his pieces I really like, but it's more of a quantity rating.
Nice, glad you agree with a lot. I love Liszt too, he would definitely move up if the tierlist included more composers (so more per tier). However, judging from the comments here some people HATE my Liszt placement already, they feel he's garbage. Kinda shocking.
I think you should listen to the water music of haendel,that maybe will change your mind to B because I really like them and you could like them too ❤😊,and I would have added all of them on S in term of music but if we’re talking about classical I agree on your tier list except for Liszt because he is my favorite
Great list. Prokofiev and Debussy up to A (Prokofiev borderline S), Brahms down to A (piano music only) Grieg down to C (piano music only) Schumann to D (the actual worst) ravel to B/A. But you nailed it for the most part!
Thanks. It's fun to hear people's thoughts and good job finding a few to move down (rather than just saying people should move up, which I clearly agree with). Brahms was a tough one for me, I think I even mentioned on his that I could see him in A based only on his piano music, but I do love 2 concertos, the variations, a sonata, and a bunch of later works, so I think he barely cracks S for me. Schumann is funny. I guess I didn't realize that I like him more than most. Multiple comments have mentioned moving him down, poor Bob. In my head everyone had him pretty high, guess not. Thanks for checking out the video!
If it was just a matter of who has more prowess as a pianist/composer, then it’s Chopin, no contest. If it’s a matter of star power/cultural relevance it’s Mozart, no contest.
A little bit strangr for me. Well, we used to say Bach, Mozart, Beethoven - music Gods and the rest. Chopin above Mozart? No way. You don't like opera, do you? ;)
For sure the best French composer between the careers of Berlioz and Debussy. He was also a great teacher at the Paris conservatory too! Very underrated.
can you give an honorable mention to Gyorgy Cziffra (he made some crazy arrangements: Tritsch Tratsch Polka // Concert Paraphrase On Il Trovatore // and Flight of the bumblebee) those are my favorite compositions from him. Would you mind giving me your opinion about Cziffra.
Ar least I had Bach in the top tier, being your profile pic and all. But yeah, poor Mozart. He's just not in my top 5 composers, so he didn't make the cut.
Haha yeah, someone mentioned that. In my defense this is a pre-made tierlist on tiermaker. So I'm lazy, not mistaken. Or maybe Rossini went on a big diet 🤣
Thank you! I honestly can't stand composers like Messiaen or Schoenberg either. I'm really not a fan of composers who write music that feels like they're just trying to show off how different and "smart" they are instead of trying to write something that sounds genuine. It's not even about atonality and chromaticism either, their music just sounds so pretentious to me regardless.
"I'm really not a fan of composers who write music that feels like they're just trying to show off how different and "smart" they are instead of trying to write something that sounds genuine." Me either. I enjoy Schoenberg and Messiaen though! Both composers are as genuine as it gets...
@@anonymousperson8903It doesn't sound genuine to me. Even if being pretentious wasn't the goal, that's how their music comes across to me regardless. I can't stand most contemporary and modern composers. Sorry (not sorry).
Beethoven is in C tier for me. Mozart and Debussy are the best keyboard composers of all time. Did you forget Mozart Piano sonatas and concerti? And yeah, I like Messiaen and Ravel a lot. Also, Brahms never sounded simmilar to Beethoven, not in piano, not in orchestral music, not in chamber music, etc. Can someone tell me if you ever mistaked a Brahms piece for a Beethoven piece, like ever? Appreciate the Haydn in A. Also, Poulenc is not an impressionistic composer. Only Debussy can be called that, even if he hated the label, and maybe Ravel, but to a much lesser extent. But Poulenc? No, not at all. Really agree with Schubert. Your attitude towards Atonal, Serial and 20th century music is really strange. "Garbage and not msuic" huh? Schoenberg 3 piano pieces, Op. 11 is really nice. And Satie wrote some nice pieces that are not Gymnopédies and Genossinnes. Also, why did you leave out Fauré? He wrote a lot of piano music. Enjoyable video though.
how dare you?!! What you have done to Ravel is unacceptable. Jeux d'eau, miroirs, sonatine, pavane, piano concertos, and many more. Ravel has few pieces but each one approaches perfection. Better than lizst, chopin and the boring romantics for sure. S tier for Ravel. You don't know how angry I am with you and your tier list.
@@octopuszombie8744 haha, yes, so true. And list like this seem to be the most controversial, even though it's just an opinion. Thanks for checking it out!
Thanks. I think he's top 10 for me, which is really good. But a lot of people consider him the GOAT so A tier seems to have rubbed people the wrong way.
No way, it's so interesting to see the difference in taste, I like Mozart the most, I could tell 30 40 legendary pieces, that purely touched my heart and soul, and are just perfect to perfection, but I know, everyone feels art his way
@@Tolstoy111Perfect, but not that original, or innovative. I know it's a classic era, but you just can't compare clacissism with romantism and late romantism (like Medtner, Scriabin, or Stanchinsky), which is the peak of music (by music theory)
I'm crying when you put Mozart in A. He is so underrated on many lists, while he was the most talented in classical music compared to everyone on the list
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Great video! I love how you're not afraid to express your subjectivity here.
I feel like French composers have been done a disservice here though - Saint-Saëns is underrated and Fauré wrote MANY amazing piano works! (I recommend Hamelin's album of his Barcarolles and Nocturnes). Poulenc too - he is one of my favourites - amazing chamber music. And my favourite French composer of all is actually Alkan - really underrated composer that is gradually becoming more well known. His Concerto for solo piano and Symphonie for solo piano are 2 of my favourite epic pieces.
Entertaining list though and it's good to embrace the subjectivity! it's a much more fun video that way, rather than trying to minimize offense to anyone! 😂
Alkan is really underrated these days, he should really get more recognition, his pieces are amazing, his Douze études dans tous les tons mineurs for example is in my opinion a work of all times.
Glad you appreciate it! Clearly I've offended some people, lol. I think most who are offended probably didn't listen to the part about practically all the composers are A or S tier, but I have to rank them relative to each other and someone has to fill the lower ranks.
I did a pre-made tier list, and it did have a lot of French composers. My musical style has always leaned a little more Baroque, Clasical, and Romantic, and also more German than French style. So it did end up piling on a little because there were just so many French composers on the list.
It makes it seem like I don't enjoy French music though, which isn't true. Even if I prefer the one style doesn't mean I hate the other. But I do admit sometimes videos like this have the effect of piling on. Like Schönburg. I could go on a 10 minute rant about the intricacies of what I like and don't like about him (I took 20th century harmony in undergrad and graduate school and LOVED it). However, I don't love listening to his music much. My default style is to ramble and talk 10 minutes about each composer, but the audience wouldn't stick around for 4 hours for me to explain each composer.
So, I oversimply some and the nature of that is some composers get the short end of the stick.
Thanks for checking out the video and your well though out comment!
@@ryanabshier It's more fun to have a slightly controversial video anyway, at least it's your honest take. And for all my defence of French composers - I'm actually not THAT massively into Debussy. I do love some of his works but he's not a favourite. I prefer the style of Ravel way more and I find it funny how the two are always compared side-by-side like they're meant to be similar - but I hear them as having completely different styles.
Ravel in C is heart wrenching
I know. He was a victim of the balancing act. He would move up if I allowed for more composers per spot.
@@ryanabshierYou don't like Gaspard de La Nuit, Tombeau de Couperin, Miroirs, Piano Concerti, Piano Tiro etc etc?
@@Ziad3195 I do. But I wanted roughly the same number of composers per tier. So while I do like him, not more than the composers above him on the list.
@@ryanabshier how dare you?!! What you have done to Ravel is unacceptable. Jeux d'eau, miroirs, sonatine, pavane, piano concertos and many more. Ravel has few pieces but each one approaches perfection. Better than lizst, chopin and the boring romantics for sure. S tier for Ravel. You don't know how angry I am with you and your tier list.
@@orochimaruhatake4045ok buddy you can maybe say ravel composes better than liszt and make an argument but u are absolutely delusional thinking hes better than chopin
Schubert is a minimum A level composer as he is, after Beethoven, the second greatest piano sonata composer. He also wrote the beautiful 8 impromptus and the Wanderer Fantasy. You erred to classify Schubert as a B level.
That was a tough one. I really tried to keep somewhat equality in the totals from each category, so the rankings kept value. So I guess that means I slightly prefer Schumann and Grieg, because if Schubert went up one of them would have to fall for me. But yeah, Schubert hanging out down in B is hard to see. Before I started filming I didn't anticipate such a crunch at the S and A tiers.
@@ryanabshier , I take issue with the Schubert classification because, besides his piano music, Schubert was also a great writer of chamber music, lieder, and symphonic works. He needs to be at least classified as A level. And Rachmaninoff greater than Schubert??!! That makes no sense to me. But thank you for sharing your opinion.
Going out on a limb here to say that Schubert's E-flat piano trio is the GOAT in the genre, with the Shostakovich E-minor a close second.
Great video! My top composers are Chopin, Rachmaninoff, Liszt, and Beethoven so nice to see them up there at the top!
Thanks, glad you liked it. And all your top composers are in my top 2 tiers, so it seems like we have similar taste.
Loved the video as always! Surprised you didn’t include Saint-Saëns, he wrote some great music yet is criminally underrated
Thanks! Glad you liked it. Mostly just want people to have a good time chatting about composers.
Yeah, you know, he's the only one that looking back on I regret cutting a little. I did it mostly as a joke (I like butchering French pronunciation because it's sooooo incredibly difficult), but of the people I cut he actually did contribute quite a bit to the piano. I mentioned in another comment replay somewhere that I simply don't know his music well enough, so I would have given him a generic C/B just out of ignorance and it would have been not that helpful.
The take away here i think is I need to give his music another shot.
Messiaen is obviously a S tier. You have to listen to the music he composed when he was young, like "8 préludes"
i didn't even start the video but if there is any mozart slander i swear to god
🙄
Obviously my list would be different because our tastes would be different, and i respect different opinions.
But to hear that Schönberg and serialism are just "garbage" is not offensive, no one cares, it's just ignorant. I don't enjoy much that style of music either, but it's not as you make it sound, just random notes in random keys "experimenting" (what kind of experiment would that be?) with obsessive music science. They were not just idiots, they were not just making random noise to seek for attention (especially because most of the attention they received was negative, like from you), they were not just doctors playing with math. Schönberg and his school opened the doors of harmony to infinity in classical music, they were much more revolutionary than our beloved Beethoven could ever wish to be.
Where you fall, is thinking that music is supposed to "sound good", and if it doesn't it's garbage. Music is an art, and like every art it is first of all a language, a way of communicating; and not every word, not every feeling, not every philosophy can be spoken with nice simple tonal words. Not every poem has to rhyme, not every painting has to be pleasing to the eye (in fact, in the same time as Schönberg, Cubism, Expressionism, Dadaism, Futurism, a lot of "ugly"-looking painting styles were born, breaking the boundaries of visual arts forever). And you saying that Schönberg is garbage is just as ignorant as saying that Picasso is. Just to put in perspective.
That whole historic period was going through the deepest artistic revolutions we had ever witnessed, and it was the mirror of a confused, atonal, ugly, tired, decadent society that was seeing all of its old traditions crumble in front of an upcoming mechanic, cold, capitalistic, indifferent, insignificant society. Serialism and atonality can be used profoundly and beautifully, and they do express feelings too, they just are very complicated, harsh, depressed, hopeless, deep and real feelings, that you may not be getting. Everything has its context.
That is all i have to say, and mind that i don't mean to insukt you or 'hate' when i say "ignorant". To ignore literally means 'to not know', and that's how you sound when you say Schönberg is garbage, like someone that simply doesn't fully know. It is your opinion and i respect it, but it's an ignorant one
@@mellcrawlerYou're entitled to your ignorant opinion too, I won't judge you can't be bothered. At least you're not trying to pass your content as educational
@@mellcrawlergod you must have very very boring evenings
@@mellcrawlerjust to be clear shoenberg didnt just make atonal music...
@@mellcrawlerbut here, good atonal piece by shoenberg: piano concerto klavierstücke, (op 42 andante is a good part)
good non atonal piece by shoenberg: insights (op 7: nicht zu rasch best bit)
open your mind a little and look up picasso's early oil works, they were very impressive and he had a great grasp on lighting and contrast, he is definitely not an awful painter in any academic sense and then he took his skills in a different direction and created very influential and original works so idk what you're on about really
What about the Faure Nocturnes for piano? Those are sublime. This list seems a bit off.
Indeed, some of the nocturnes are masterpieces in my opinion
good list. I agree with most of your placements
Thanks. Hope you enjoyed the video!
Mendelssohn in C tier is crazy
Yeah I know. Who would you move down though if you moved him up?
yeah he needs d tier
@@rohinagrawal9727 🤣🤣🤣
@@ryanabshier the entire B list. I don't think he stands with the A-listers here, but I'd put him above Debussy/Prokofiev/Bartok/Schubert.
I dont listen to classical, admittedly unsophisticated ear but even I get Beethoven and Rachmaninoff. So powerful
2 of the greats. I'm always surprised by the Rach hate. To me there is very little not to like about him and so much to love.
Brahms and Rachmaninov on S tier and Mozart on A tier is the laugh of the day.
They are both better than mozart, stay mad
Made me laugh too - Rach deserves an S+ tier just for himself.
I'd put Mozart in C. Never found his music interesting at all.
@@alans98989 some of it is okay but mostly I think D!
@@epointerwinboie Maybe, if you have absolutely zero taste or knowledge
true musicians know all of these are s tier
Lol, yup. Not arguing much on that one. I mention in the video my challenge was to balance to rating though. But yeah, I say basically all of them are S tiers if compared to other composers.
Casual Ravel in B is crazy 💀
Placing Mozart (a top 3 composer in almost all serious rankings by acclaimed conductors) below Rachmaninoff (who only wrote a handful of genuine masterpieces) and Chopin (who composed almost exclusively for the piano, thus causing him to have very little instrumental range) is just outrageous. Although Rachmaninoff did compose two of some of the finest piano concertos ever (2 and 3), and Chopin some of finest pieces for the solo piano, Mozarts raw output, experimentation, range, and refinement expressed in his over 600 works (which includes symphonies, operas, sonatas + concertos of every which variety, chamber music, and religious works) outweighs Chopin and Rachmaninoff any day of the week.
It’s about how he enjoys the composers. How enjoyable they are to listen to. Id say 90% of the population would think chopin sounds cooler and better
@@jonathan130 "Id say 90% of the population would think chopin sounds cooler and better"
There's no way in hell the average person, if given samples of the best of Mozart and Chopin, would choose Chopin over Mozart. One of Mozart's primary niches in his music is his highly accesable and satisfactory appeal. There's probably not a person alive who wouldn't enjoy a single Mozart piece. The same can't be said for Chopin.
@@patricksarama4963 uh ok Mr opinion. But the reality is correct from my view. There are many Mozart pieces I don’t like, the same with Chopin. People think mozart is boring and cheesy. I don’t, I love Mozart but that’s just how it is from my experience. No one I know likes mozart, but many people have a slight interest in Chopin. The most famous classical melody on youtube is his e b major nocturne for a good record. It is beautiful and isn’t constructed in the same harmonic style and structure as mozart. It feels more natural and emotional. Mozart barely uses colorful and unusual chords and phrasing in his music and his chord progressions are just I-V most of the time. People like when music has a hook to them nowadays and chopin is far greater at that than mozart. His etudes, take his torrent, black keys, winter wind etude and many more, are much more interesting and unique than any mozart piece and has a certain intense hook. His torrent etude literally has a bass drop. His melodies are objectively more expressive too. Chopin only wrote for the piano but that doesn’t take away his greatestness. In the world of classical music, Mozart is more recognized than Chopin. But in the modern world, he doesn’t stand a chance against Chopin. But Mozart is objectively a greater composer if we look what he has done on paper.
the only thing i find odd is grieg being ranked above haydn, schumann, liszt, mozart, mendelssohn debussy and ravel (atleast i think these are in order too?)
Thanks for checking out the video! Hmm, I don't think the rows are necessarily in order (though I might have ordered the first row). I do love Grieg and feel like he has a cool "niche" factor, relative to some other composers. However, I recognize that he is probably on the weaker side of the A tiers for this list.
I've considered doing a straight up top 10 or top 20. It would be tough to assign an absolute order, but also pretty fun.
Mozart on A tier you gotta be kidding me. Jupiter Symphony, Don Giovanni, Magic Flute, 40th sympohny, Requiem, one breathtaking master piece after the next. The Jupiter symphony has 5 movements all beautifully intertwined what other composer can compete? He's also the most prolific of all composers. Should be an automatic S.
I mentioned at the beginning that I was ranking only based on piano output, so hope that clears it up. I know many people feel he's strong enough with just piano rep as well, but I happen to have him in my top 10, but not top 5 piano composers.
@@ryanabshier - I didn't know Bach was a piano composer.
@@evelynn4273 🧐🤔😟🤯
putting ravel in C and mozart in A and not S should be punishable by having your musical degrees removed
and shoenberg at the bottom of d? are you tripping?
Yeah, as I mentioned in the video i tried to make all the categories the same size. So only 5 S tiers. If you move some up others have to go down. It's a tough challenge, but I think I'll keep my degrees 🤣
@@mellcrawlerare you the dude who said picasso is trash on another comment 😂 you're boring bro
@@mellcrawlerif you think daphnis and chloe by ravel is awful you need your head checked
@@mellcrawlerRavel and Mozart definitely deserve better.
8:30 do secondary school in Singapore, a “B” is a >= 60% 😂😂😂 (“A2” is a >= 70% and “A1”is a >= 75%, “C” is a >=50%)
So it’s
A1 A2 B3 B4 C5 C6 D7 E8 F9 where each grade goes down by 5%, starting at 75% for the best grade
(This for secondary sch btw, primary school is different I think)
Haha great, now people are going to think I hate Mozart even more 🤣🤣🤣
Where’s Shostakovich and Mahler?
After just three notes you just KNOW it's Clair de Lune. To me, that's genius. Schuberts Impromptus are a must listen too. I don't rank the great composers, I'm just so happy there were so many of them, and I get to hear their masterpieces. The greatest legacy has to be the 32 Beethoven piano sonatas. I love Debussys Preludes too.
What about Scarlatti? Isn't he a keyboard guy? Or just too inexpressive for you?
Hi, thanks for checking out the video. I used a pre-made tier list and Scarlatti wasn't on there and the website makes it really hard to add anyone. But yeah, he should be on there.
How is Scriabin not in the list??????? Great video tho!!😊
Not having Tchaikowsky (or even mentioning him once) in here I see as an oversight... so I will wait for this list to be completed in the future. However, if this choice is intentional I regard your list, and sensibilities, to be E tier - with good behaviour a possible D.
Having no Scriabin in this list is unacceptable.
Its odd I know, but I used a pre-made tier list and didn't add any of my own. I don't know why he wasn't included, but possibly because the tierlist I used was not piano specific.
true!
He'd be right next to Schoenberg, for 'atonal' music that only people listen to sound refined, but no other reason
@@Scrap_and_build_ourselves Obviously you have not really listened to Scriabin and have no idea what you are talking about.
Might seem a bit pedantic, but that isnt a picture of Rossini. Regardless, good job to you, and whoever made the list.
Lol, you're the first to point that out. He lost a lot of weight for the photo 🤣🤣🤣 I just used a premade tierlist on and wasn't really focused on him because I was removing him. I wonder who it is? At first I thought thought it might be Ashkenazy, but not so much when I zoomed in.
Thanks for checking out the video and the kind words. Glad you enjoyed it!
It’s a colorized photo of Ravel.
@@markwilliamson8047 oh man it is! The color threw my off. Thanks
Where’s Mahler!?
Mahler stinks!!! Lol, not really. I'm just ranking composers by their piano repertoire so unless I'm mistaken he barely wrote solo piano music, or not at all.
Thanks for the hillarious anecdote about Handel!
But I have to ask: Why do you consider Saint-Saens to not be a piano composer? He wrote many etudes, a truckload of salon pieces and 5! piano concertos, was Professor of Piano at the Paris conservatory. I can really recommend no.5 , the "egyptian" concerto by Saint-Saens!
This one I need to explain. I realized in editing that I didn't give an explanation during the video and this comment is well deserved. Of all the composers on this list, I know the least about Saint-Saens. We all are going to have different relative strengths and gaps, but my lack of knowledge of his music is pretty big so I don't feel I can adequately rank him.
Part of the reason for that is I honestly haven't enjoyed what I've heard. But, I can't give him a D or C tier without having listened and studied his music more. So I just thought it was best to leave off. Basically all the other composers I've listened to extensively and have at least played around with their music (so I have my own opinions separate from recordings), but his I never played for myself.
I'll check out that concerto, I'm down for discovering more. Thanks for the recommendation!
Basically, I cut him out of respect of realizing I can't properly rank him, but then failed to give a good reason in the video. 🤪
@@ryanabshier I see, that is a very valid reason to exclude him! I hope you will enjoy the concerto haha.
One criticism I've heard made a lot against Saint-Saens's music is that it's mostly all shallow technique and no originality/heart, similar to Medtner or Mendelssohn. Personally though, I think a lot of what I've heard of it is gorgeous...
If it wasn't just for piano music but chamber music, symphonies, operas, Mozart was God tier.
Saint Saen's piano concertos are just awesome !! I think he could be a solid C
You're telling me that in a tier list where composers are ranked based on their contribution to piano music and you don't include Liszt in S?
But but but but but....yeah I know. I didn't want too many composers in S tier, and I do like Chopin and Brahms more than Liszt. Maybe I should redo this and add in 20 not as good composers (like Clementi) to bump up everyone else 😀
@@ryanabshier clementi is very good
Messiaen is one of the greatest composer i know..... And Liszt has to be on S tier, becuase he invented atonality, impressionism and pushed foward music like no other. Plus has one of the most original harmonies ever. There should be SS-tier, in which has to be Medtner and Scriabin. Medtner is composer that has the best form, structure, tonal harmony and Has the MOST original thematic work ever. And Scriabin is the biggest inovator, has great structure, harmony is absolutelly stunning, and he has made awesome concept of atonal music!
I do not disagree about Liszt, he got moved down simply because I didn't want too many S tier composers. If I included 20-30 "lessor" composers everyone here would get bumped up for sure. Interesting though, many comments want to see Liszt dropped, but it seems like you value later composers a lot. That's cool, as many people value the older ones more.
Bach needs his own tier, S. In tier A I put Chopin, Schumann.
That's opinions. In my opinion as a pianist, Chopin and Liszt are just better.
I already know this video will piss off everyone lmao, we take ourselves too seriously as classical music bros let’s be real. Like yeah I love Messiaen and Mendelssohn but everyone is entitled to their taste. Enjoyed the video.
I would definitely put Schubert on S level, he is my favourite composer. Can't imagine what could he have achieved if he didn't die so young.
He is rather remarkable. Such an output in such a short life (and not just piano either). It makes you think, what if Beethoven had died at age 31. His last piano sonata would have probably been #15 Op. 28.
It also makes you curious how Schubert's style would have evolved, considering he was a very early Romantic composer, yet only 10-15 years older than many of the other Romantics (Schumann, Chopin, Liszt, Mendelssohn, Wagner).
Thanks for checking out the video!
Some people get very upset over your opinion on these composers. It's ridiculous. So what if I like Ives more than Mozart?
@@evanwyatt2862 🤣, so true. Thanks for the comment, it really brightened. When I filmed this tierlist I never anticipated 1. It doing so well. I make a lot of videos on piano technique and practice, so this is the minority of videos for me. Like, for the most part I try to help people get better at piano. I don't just make tierlists every day for views. But I thought, hey, this could be a fun video to watch (because I like watching tierlists).
And 2, yeah, people writing "I'm offended by the placement of..." Like, if anything my picks are boring and probably too typical. But they aren't facts, it's who I like to play and listen to. You can like someone different.
Again, thanks for the comment!
@ryanabshier Exactly. You're not claiming that one of these composers is better than another. It's about enjoyment. For example, I don't care for Rachmaninoff too much because of his melodic skills, but obviously, he's still amazing. His control of texture and harmonie can not be replicated! Thanks for the spectacular video again!
You can't.
In the classical world, you must say that Bach is the greatest composer of all time while loving all other lesser good composers because they all wrote music you're not authorized to dislike.
If you don't like it, you must study it until you like it.
Your personal taste doesn't matter here.
Chopin did something similar like Bartok. He implemented polish folk dance/music in his own pieces. When he was younger he visited Polish villages and listened to their music and wrote similar melodies in this own pieces
"I really like science but it's not music"
Schoenberg laughs in "Style and Idea"
🤣🤣🤣 oversimplification on my part for sure, didn't want the video to be 4 hours with a long rant on each composer. You, however, have the best comment about my Schönburg dig!
Noice list, gonna look up some of these peeps now. Am detecting a distinct anti french vibe to your tastes though 😂
Please explore Prokofiev more. His piano concertos are pretty amazing. His output for piano may not be enough -- he did write some wonderful string works -- but not that much piano. His Vision Fugitives is worth a listen. He does have an interesting mix of bombast and nostalgia.
30:20 “more substance in Chopin than Liszt” ??
Is it just me or did he not eliminate Vivaldi or put him on the list...?
Ooof it’s so hard to see Liszt in the A tier 😭
Trust me, I know. ☹ Why did I impose stupid rules like balancing our the tiers, lol. I guess from the list that makes Liszt somewhere in my 6-10 favorite composer.
It's hard to list Listz.
No Mahler?
Okay, most of your list is fine. And you do admit the subjectivity of the list, that it very often reflects simply your taste. Fair enough. But you also expect serious disagreements. I have two. Well, they're really more than serious.
I very much disagree with your evaluation of Schönberg. First he didn't write a lot of piano music, and it's not what he's famous for. He might not should be on the list at all. But since he's there . . . . I admit that his Suite for Piano, Op. 25, is tough. But I really like his Three Pieces for Piano, Op. 11. And his Six Little Pieces for Piano, Op. 19 are beautiful. Some of them are charming. And neither Op. 11 nor Op. 19 are "scientific" in the slightest. Op. 25 was transitional to the 12-tone pieces to come.
Even more horrible is that Scriabin didn't even make the list! Schönberg is on the list, and Scriabin isn't? You can't be serious. Sure there are the five symphonies, but most of his output was piano music. In my view, he's right up there with Beethoven. Seriously, his Sonata No. 3 is a show-stopper, and the last five sonatas are transcendent. And for an encore, let's have his Etude, Op. 8 No. 12.
And if sheer output is a criterion, as I might have implied, I guess it's only fair to mention Czerny. But he did let his teaching pieces get in the way of realizing his artistic potential.
no scriabin 😶
I know! I did a pre-made tier list online (so it had the pictures and text already loaded) but them not having him is a big miss.
@@ryanabshier Well, that explains it. I wrote a big long comment, half about Scriabin and half about Schönberg. A quarter of my post was that Schönberg was even on the list at all, and another quarter was that Scriabin wasn't on the list at all. Then I set out defending both composers. I posted it, I guess, 45 mins. ago, and then I set out to see if anyone else was as offended as I was about the inclusion and the omission. So I've found a Scriabin fan, maybe two.
“Saint See-ins” 💀💀💀
I started saying that at a music festival one time and it always gets a laugh or at least annoyed people.
It's pronounced similarly to Sung-Song (except the 'g' is like half-pronounced).
It's devastating that you've missed out Scriabin from this list. It's Scriabin who takes to Chopin's tradition in both melodic style, texture, and form far more than Rachmaninov whose solo piano music is more textural and rhythmic.
Agree with most of your other rankings though. I can see why you put Liszt and Mozart in A tier. Liszt is great but leans towards style over substance (though the substance is great too, just not as much), and even though I prefer the charm of Mozart's sonatas to Beethoven's in general, I can't deny that Beethoven's are more significant piano works and he does a great deal more with the form.
Not easy - better to say the best piece (as Bach: dona nobis pacem, mass b minor/Chopin: op.10 no.10/Rose Marie, Eddy Nilson).
Yeah, not an easy job. You're always insulting someone by moving someone else up. Cool idea though, but then people would argue about which piece i call their greatest 🤣
You should totally do one for the modern film composers like John Williams, Hans Zimmer, Danny Elfman, James Newton Howard, Howard Shore etc
Well I'm just glad you put Schoenberg at the bottom
Haha, some were pretty hurt by it. But yeah, that's where he deserves 😂
where is Mahler?
Is it OK to put everyone is S-tier?! 😅❤
It would make the video less controversial, haha.
Where are Scriabin and Medtner :(
Yeah, there are a few unfortunate omissions. Though I'm super thankful for whoever put the tier list together for everyone to use, I'm sure it's tough to decide who to include.
And was rather harsh of you to put Mendelssohn in the C category. And you also lost me when you demoted Schubert from the B list down to the C list that was uncalled for.
Hi Greg, sorry to rank your favorite composers so low. I hope you saw the part of the video where I mentioned balancing the tiers. So for Mendelssohn or Schubert to move up someone else would have to drop down. Difficult decisions for sure, but if I gave every composer an A or S it wouldn't mean much. Hope that clears things up.
He demoted Schubert from A to B, not B to C.
@@ryanabshierPerhaps this whole idea of rating is just silly.
That Messiaen ranking is absolutely criminal
Dvorak out?
Sorry! Mozart is far and away the GOAT.
On the top there can be only 2, Bach and Beethoven, then on A Handel (even Beethoven consider him the greatest composer, how he can be on C!), Chopin, Scarlatti, Wagner, Scriabin (we are talking the most original and creative here)- B Mozart, Schubert (both living longer may had evolved and be on the top) Rameau, Vivaldi, Couperin, Strauss, Rachmaninoff, Debussy C - Haydn, Prokofiev, Schumann, Liszt,
Interesting. I'm curious if you are ranking that all around, or just piano music. In this video i just ranked based on only piano music, so that's why Handel is so low and Chopin/Liszt are so high.
why didnt u include piano in the title
Oh man, titles are hard. I included solo piano and concertos. So if I wanted to be completely accurate I could say "Ranking Classical Composers based on their piano music including concertos" but that's too long. I did say my method at the beginning of the video however. But yeah, trying to sum up a video in a few words and always balancing being succinct with accuracy is one of the least fun things I do. I would not make thumbnails and titles in a heartbeat if I could.
@@ryanabshier fairs
Why do you rank Grieg higher than Schubert? That's ridiculous!
My guy, you understand that Mendelssohn basically kept the legacy of Bach and barque music in general. It's quite possible that without Mendelssohn we wouldn't really have widespread Bach music. But I forgive this carnage towards Mendelssohn. 😊
This list is optimal for hobbyists and pianist only
He judge composers tier with good melody and harmony only.
Most important orchestration, avant garde and non major piano composers are put at rank B or below, lol
Handel in C tier makes me weep... this was Bach, Beethoven, Haydn and Mozart best composer
@@triumphantmichael yeah, Handel as an overall composer would be higher. Just for his keyboard/piano contributions, there's just not much to work with. I do have a few of his pieces I really like, but it's more of a quantity rating.
Perfect list just change brahms for liszt and put satie in b and its perfect
Nice, glad you agree with a lot. I love Liszt too, he would definitely move up if the tierlist included more composers (so more per tier). However, judging from the comments here some people HATE my Liszt placement already, they feel he's garbage. Kinda shocking.
Saint-Saens has enough piano stuff to be rated, but realistically most people don't know almost anything from him (me included :P)
random idea: tierlist of some piano concertos(?)
Where’s Sibelius and Peterson-Berger?
I think you should listen to the water music of haendel,that maybe will change your mind to B because I really like them and you could like them too ❤😊,and I would have added all of them on S in term of music but if we’re talking about classical I agree on your tier list except for Liszt because he is my favorite
Great list. Prokofiev and Debussy up to A (Prokofiev borderline S), Brahms down to A (piano music only) Grieg down to C (piano music only) Schumann to D (the actual worst) ravel to B/A. But you nailed it for the most part!
Thanks. It's fun to hear people's thoughts and good job finding a few to move down (rather than just saying people should move up, which I clearly agree with). Brahms was a tough one for me, I think I even mentioned on his that I could see him in A based only on his piano music, but I do love 2 concertos, the variations, a sonata, and a bunch of later works, so I think he barely cracks S for me.
Schumann is funny. I guess I didn't realize that I like him more than most. Multiple comments have mentioned moving him down, poor Bob. In my head everyone had him pretty high, guess not. Thanks for checking out the video!
Schumann is the greatest romantic composer. Your musical taste is very questionable.
You really hyped up liszt for FOUR MINUTES to give him an A
I did 🤣 Not everyone can be a winner. Haha. But to be fair, the reason I used the S tier was that composers like Liszt could still be an A.
I love Chopin but you don’t put him over Mozart
I do, but understand if others don't. Do you love Mozart piano music, or all of his works (operas, orchestral...)?
If it was just a matter of who has more prowess as a pianist/composer, then it’s Chopin, no contest. If it’s a matter of star power/cultural relevance it’s Mozart, no contest.
The decomposing composers, there's less of them every day.
A little bit strangr for me. Well, we used to say Bach, Mozart, Beethoven - music Gods and the rest. Chopin above Mozart? No way. You don't like opera, do you? ;)
Faure's piano music is better than you think!
For sure the best French composer between the careers of Berlioz and Debussy. He was also a great teacher at the Paris conservatory too! Very underrated.
can you give an honorable mention to Gyorgy Cziffra (he made some crazy arrangements: Tritsch Tratsch Polka // Concert Paraphrase On Il Trovatore // and Flight of the bumblebee) those are my favorite compositions from him. Would you mind giving me your opinion about Cziffra.
Mozart in A-tier is crazy, but music is subjective afterall.
Ar least I had Bach in the top tier, being your profile pic and all.
But yeah, poor Mozart. He's just not in my top 5 composers, so he didn't make the cut.
What about the brothers of Bach and Haydn? CP and Michael
if you like piano, how about the Russian Chopin? Scriabine
Great suggestion. I used a pre-made tierlist and not everyone was included.
Ughh, surely you jest lol.
Russian “Chopin”??? This is blasphemy
@@LooksMatterTheMostoutright stupidity, rather
Your photo of "Rossini" is in fact Ravel 😉
Haha yeah, someone mentioned that. In my defense this is a pre-made tierlist on tiermaker. So I'm lazy, not mistaken.
Or maybe Rossini went on a big diet 🤣
@@ryanabshier 😅
Thank you! I honestly can't stand composers like Messiaen or Schoenberg either. I'm really not a fan of composers who write music that feels like they're just trying to show off how different and "smart" they are instead of trying to write something that sounds genuine.
It's not even about atonality and chromaticism either, their music just sounds so pretentious to me regardless.
"I'm really not a fan of composers who write music that feels like they're just trying to show off how different and "smart" they are instead of trying to write something that sounds genuine."
Me either.
I enjoy Schoenberg and Messiaen though!
Both composers are as genuine as it gets...
@@anonymousperson8903It doesn't sound genuine to me. Even if being pretentious wasn't the goal, that's how their music comes across to me regardless. I can't stand most contemporary and modern composers. Sorry (not sorry).
@@LukeMossman Well that's a shame.
if i was doing this list i would have switched rach and liszt but other than that the exact same
Cool, glad you liked it! Yeah, it's hard to see Liszt in the A tier, but not everyone can be a winner, haha.
S: Beethoven, Mozart, Bach - A: Chopin Rachmaninov
Bach, Beethoven, Vivaldi, Mozart, Brahms, Tchaikovsky...
ravel in c is a disservice
Scarlatti 1685 like Bach and Händel
Beethoven is the greatest composer and artist, ever.
100% agree here!
Totally in agreement!!!
If somenody sais "... is not music" theur opinion is instantly invalidated
Beethoven is in C tier for me. Mozart and Debussy are the best keyboard composers of all time. Did you forget Mozart Piano sonatas and concerti? And yeah, I like Messiaen and Ravel a lot.
Also, Brahms never sounded simmilar to Beethoven, not in piano, not in orchestral music, not in chamber music, etc. Can someone tell me if you ever mistaked a Brahms piece for a Beethoven piece, like ever?
Appreciate the Haydn in A. Also, Poulenc is not an impressionistic composer. Only Debussy can be called that, even if he hated the label, and maybe Ravel, but to a much lesser extent. But Poulenc? No, not at all.
Really agree with Schubert.
Your attitude towards Atonal, Serial and 20th century music is really strange. "Garbage and not msuic" huh? Schoenberg 3 piano pieces, Op. 11 is really nice.
And Satie wrote some nice pieces that are not Gymnopédies and Genossinnes.
Also, why did you leave out Fauré? He wrote a lot of piano music.
Enjoyable video though.
Satie - more forgivable of you than with Messiaen or Poulenc
Schubert would be S for me..the rest I could agree on
Saint sans is my favorite comic, I mean, composer.
how dare you?!! What you have done to Ravel is unacceptable. Jeux d'eau, miroirs, sonatine, pavane, piano concertos, and many more. Ravel has few pieces but each one approaches perfection. Better than lizst, chopin and the boring romantics for sure. S tier for Ravel. You don't know how angry I am with you and your tier list.
Beethoven is above everthing and everybody. An special Tier above the rest must be destinated for him.
Boom! No argument here. He's my fave
I love how pianists putting automatically Chopin at the top......
This could get controversial
Haha, and it does! I mean, not really, but some comments are. 🤣
Every tier list could get controversial no matter how much research one does lmao
@@octopuszombie8744 haha, yes, so true. And list like this seem to be the most controversial, even though it's just an opinion. Thanks for checking it out!
You do Not Even know Scarlatti?? JS Bach is B Level, CPE Bach is A level.
@@pepehaydn7039 Scarlatti who? And yeah, never heard of Clarence Percy Edwards Bach either.
Why do people like Mozart so much? I think A tier is already very good for mozart
Thanks. I think he's top 10 for me, which is really good. But a lot of people consider him the GOAT so A tier seems to have rubbed people the wrong way.
No way, it's so interesting to see the difference in taste, I like Mozart the most, I could tell 30 40 legendary pieces, that purely touched my heart and soul, and are just perfect to perfection, but I know, everyone feels art his way
@@thegoalfather9922 for me, my favorite are the romantic period pieces
Mozart’s music is perfect. It’s the music of the spheres. Not to mention how daring and radical it was.
@@Tolstoy111Perfect, but not that original, or innovative. I know it's a classic era, but you just can't compare clacissism with romantism and late romantism (like Medtner, Scriabin, or Stanchinsky), which is the peak of music (by music theory)
Handel wrote no piano music tho!!!
I'm crying when you put Mozart in A. He is so underrated on many lists, while he was the most talented in classical music compared to everyone on the list