Hi, Sino-Vietnamese is a special case among the Sino-Xenic languages in which it consists of distinct layers of borrowings from different periods of Chinese. The most common, easy-to-distinguish layer of Sino-Vietnamese is also the standardized Sino-Vietnamese reading system taken from the Tang Middle Chinese. However, as Vietnam was under Chinese rule since the Han dynasty, there was an even older layer of Sino-Vietnamese words borrowed from this era, resulting in a double borrowing phenomenon, often with two readings of the same character emerging in two different words with different nuances/meanings. For example the character 味 which has the standard reading of vị (taste), which many Vietnamese can tell right away that it's a borrowed word, but it also has an older reading of mùi, which means smell, and most Vietnamese would assume that this is a native word. As you can see, the older reading also reflects the older Chinese pronunciation of this character, and linguistics have used Sino-Vietnamese as a helping tool to construct older Chinese pronunciation, which I find pretty cool.
This is so true. I speak three Chinese dialects and currently learning Vietnamese. This phenomenon is fascinating. Like the word 心 is pronounced Tâm and Tim. 卷 is cuốn and quyển. 近 is gần, cạnh, cận . 人 is nhân, nhơn. All these have the same roots but now are used under different situations. Some of these are closer to one dialect than another.
The same happen with Kanji. Japanese just still use the Chinese character and have more understanding of the root and origin pronunciation of Sino word than us.
@@Laggie74 You got this point exactly right : "All these have the same roots but now are used under different situations. Some of these are closer to one dialect than another." Same thing goes to English, French, Italian, German, Spanish , Portuguese, Dutch etc, same words or similar words have same meaning but use in different ways and contexts in their native countries /languages
Same with most Chinese "dialects" like Yue (Cantonese) or Wu (Shanghainese) & especially Southern Min languages like Hokkien, Taiwanese & Teochew. There's a standardised layer of Middle Chinese, but also a substratum of older pronunciations. Most notable would be Southern Min, with a lot of core vocabulary from Old Chinese. You can see it clearly with Sino-Japanese as well with 2 sets of readings for Kanji --- Kan'on & Go'on (Han & Wu pronunciations) taken from different time periods; there are even readings called TouSou'on (Tang Song pronunciations) mostly for Zen religious lexicon & MinShin'on (Ming & Qing pronunciations) which are for more late borrowings (like "gyoza") Vietnamese seems to have a lot of different layers as well, given the cultural contact & influence from China over the centuries. It would be fascinating to uncover them all. I'm fascinated with Old Chinese borrowings in Thai as well, given that there was early cultural influence also from ancient China, but the Thai then gravitated towards India for their higher culture & language, so the borrowings stopped (except for more modern food terms, of course; everyone loves Chinese food LOL).
This is amazing! I am Thai with southern Chinese parents, and used to live Hanoi for 2 years. This is the same feeling as when I started learning Vietnamese in Hanoi. Many times I heard new Vietnamese words and I knew them right away, because they were the same words as southern Chinese or Thai! That really inspired me to learn more, and learnt with fun. The relationship of Asian languages are wonderful. People are actually very mixed. Worthless to fight for nationalism, since we are all mixture of many different human gene pools.
I never associated Vietnamese language with Thai, because I thought Thai was another spectrum which was heavily influenced by India in the west, until I watched this video of these girls comparing Korean, CHinese, Thai and Viet . The Thai girl said they call Korea "Kao Lee" which is so remotely off from any similarity to other languages until you dig into history, Vietnamese used to call Korea "Cao Ly" in ancient text, originated word came from China to refer to Korea . Nowadays Vietnamese only known Korea as Đại Hàn or Hàn Quốc, so if you don't read history text you would never know Vietnam once call Korea the same way Thai did . I'm sure there are many more if only we mastered the languages .
@@anhbinbaccuc8850 "Kao Lee" or "Cao Ly", also known as "Go Ryeo" in Korean, was a dynasty, and this is actually where the word Korea was derived from. Đại Hàn or Hàn Quốc, on the other hand, is what the South Korean government calls themselves today.
@@anhbinbaccuc8850 You're right. Actually there are not that much common words in Thai and Vietnamese, since the Thai language are so influenced by Indian. However, the way to put words in sentences between Thai and Vietnamese is very similar. For example, adjectives are behind nouns, not in the front like Chinese or English. We just learn vocabularies and then put them in sentences the same way we do in our own language, say them, and most the time people understand them! That's totally impossible to do with English.
@@anurakmasayavanich9634 Only Thai-Siam has been influenced by Indian that much. If you learn Northern or Northeastern Thai, you will see the common words sharing between Thais and minority in Southern China. Moreover, many pure Thai word has similarity to Ancient Chinese that connected to Southern Chinese.
Before I entered University, I was always, like many other Vietnamese, triggered by the concept of borrowing words and writing system from China. I was trying so hard to dismiss the fact that thousand years of cultural interference would obviously affects our language. But when I went to Uni and took a Vietnamese cultural course I was very inspired by how we tried to make Chinese characters into something very unique to our own and how similar thing happens to other sinosphere countries like Korea and Japan but not quite in the same way. Very fun.
A simple explanation is human pride at work, that somehow my tribe is more unique, stronger, more prosperous, more inventive. That's the underlying reason in my opinion why Vietnamese would wish for as little Chinese elements as possible, to the point of minimizing through exaggeration.
It's understandable. Vietnam gained independence from the Chinese more than 1000 years ago. Chinese people still do not accept their language was changed due to 1000 years under the ruling of northern nomads although they just regained their ruling less than 100 years ago. Also, if you study Mandarin, you will find it's very foreign, sounds nothing like the Sino-Vietnamese you know.
@@vanhoang4587 . Any Kinh people understand their ancestor 's Chinese characters Writing Script is Chữ Nho, Chữ Hán must be understood or Master Han Nom Latin Alphabet letters structure, Kinh people is called Chữ Quốc Ngữ, nowadays Vietnamese, Tiếng Việt in proficiency and is easily to study Kanji. Nowadays, It is a lot of Kinh people working and studying in Japan. Nowadays, most people understand several languages but Kinh people is unable to read their ancestor's Chinese characters Writing Script is Chữ Nho, Chữ Hán, Hán Nom in Temp of Văn Miếu, Hanoi (Chùa Văn Miếu tại Hà Nội) that is very pitty and sad for Kinh ethic in Vietnam.
@@nhanliu9695 I mean Chinese Mandarin words sound very different from their respective Sino Vietnamese ones despite both of them can be writen using the same Hanji/ Hán Tự
@@vanhoang4587 . Kinh People is one of 54 ethics of Bai Yue and Kinh people in Annam/ Vietnam is heritaged the culture, Chinese characters Writing Script is called Hanzi/ Hán Tự that is constructed by 121 Chinese characters 字首/Bộ Thủ, since the Qing dynasty and Jiao Zhi/ Giao Chỉ/ 交 趾 ethics of Lạc Việt / 雒越/ Lou Yue, Âu Việt/甌越/Ao Yue is Annexed into state of Nam Việt/南越國 with ethics of Bai Yue by Zhao Tuo/ Triệu Đà/趙佗 have the Sheng Nong/神農/ Thần Nông culture and therefore Kinh people is one of 54 ethics of Bai Yue in Vietnam, this is the fact that Kinh people is heritaged culture, Chinese characters Writing Script of 54 ethics of Bai Yue in Vietnam. And therefore Hán Nom Latin Alphabet letters structure, kinh people is called Chữ Quốc Ngữ, nowadays Vietnamese, Tiếng Việt is in diversity dialects of 54 Bai Yue ethics in Vietnam. That is simply and it is deedless to argue in anyway. Nowadays Vietnamese, Tiếng Việt have 80% Sino - Vietnamese ( Tiếng Hán -Việt). Those who Kinh people understand their ancestor's Chinese characters Writing Script is Chữ Nho, Chữ Hán, Hán Nom must be understood Hán Nom Latin Alphabet letters structure, kinh people is called Chữ Quốc Ngữ, nowadays Vietnamese, Tiếng Việt in proficiency and is easily to study Kanji, ect.
It is sad you got hate comments on your previous video from Chinese trolls trying to gatekeep the Chinese characters and from Vietnamese trolls outright trying to reject their own culture and heritage. Glad to see you shining the light on Chữ Nôm and its importance in deeply understanding the Vietnamese language.
Tóm lại là, nếu nói từ hán - Việt là từ mượn của trung quốc là không đồng ý. Từ hán Việt giống với tiếng đường cổ, tiếng đường cổ ở trung quốc giờ không còn thì cơ sở đâu mà nói ai mượn ai.
Modern / simplified Chinese is honestly quite bastardised. Learning traditional script and dialectal forms of Chinese are key to learning and understanding the rich history and cross-cultural exchanges throughout the sinosphere.
I frankly doubt there were that many Chinese trolls who would "gatekeep the Chinese characters". First, most Chinese don't know and don't care much about Vietnam or Vietnamese culture, very unlike how Vietnamese think about China/Chinese. That's simply due to country size and country significance differentials, not necessary tribalism. Second, wouldn't a person feel pride that his culture is being adopted by foreign tribes? I as a Chinese would feel glad to see more of the world take effort to learn and know Chinese, same as Vietnamese would feel proud if more people learn and use Vietnamese. So I suspect the negativity comes primarily from Vietnamese nationalists who want to exaggerate their tribal uniqueness.
@13:10: Another very important example of borrowing a term, and giving it a totally new meaning in Vietnamese would be the term *"đại gia"* : derived from the characters *"大家"* , it quite simply means "everybody (in the house)" in contemporary standard Chinese. But *in Vietnamese* , it is a *translation of the French concept of a "grande maison"* (or a "powerhouse", magnate, or tycoon in English) : which does not literally mean a big abode, but *someone who wields a lot of social-economic influence* in a particular community.
I just love this kind of videos. I remember the time I was studying Indo-european Compared Grammar and how much fun it was to understand the evolution of a word in the indo-european area, knowing the consonant or vowel shift , from Spain to India....Because I understand English French Italian Spanish Portugues Romanian (native language) and some, not fluently like Hindi/Urdu Sanskrit German Serbo-Croatian etc. it is so easy the understand the meaning of an indo-european word.....Now that I'm studying Japanese I can "see" the correlation with Chinese or other influnced languages much more easier, but not as easy as in the Indo-european language family. I have to learn at least Mandarin Cantonese Thai and Korean to have a better grasp on South-East Asia. Not having time to study all of them hurts me ...... I guess this kind of video is not for everyone.
wow very nice. I previously read that chu nom is very bulky and illogical, but watching this, there is actually a lot of sense to chu nom characters. please keep making videos on chu nom.
You are great. Simply fantastic. I speak Mandarin, Cantonese and English fluently, and have many Vietnamese friends. You are right about the Chinese and Vietnamese languages. For those who are "offended", they just expose their ignorance. Probably a better name for "Chinese character" is "Hanzi". Using the name "Chinese character" inadvertently offend many ignorant people.
The problem with Hanzi is that each Sinosphere country has its own reading of the characters 漢字, so for the Chinese, it would be Hanzi, the Korean Hanja, the Japanese Kanji, and lastly the Vietnamese Hán tự. It's a clumsy term, especially when talking about one of these languages other than Chinese and referring to the characters as only Hanzi. The best solution would be to use the respective name when talking about a specific language, or use the neutral English term for that as Chinese character.
You are amazing for bring up the connections . Trolls and haters they know only 1 language so we don't bother with them. As a 3rd Chinese generation born in Vietnam, I never bothered with Chinese until over 10yrs ago when I started to learn Chinese writing and I was shocked to find not only the similarities that most people brought up, but related words and sounds that no one has never mentioned. Like the very basic Vietnamese Hello (Xin Chào) and Thank you (Cám Ơn) in Vietnamese . Foreigners learning Vietnamese and Chinese will not find the relations with these words but I was able to pick up the relations not only in meaning but in sounds. Xin Chào (請早) the Chinese words put together are meaningless 請 (please) has the same meaning as "Xin" in Vietnamese. 早 (early) In Vietnamese it's "tảo" but the exact meaning of (tảo ) is only use in poetry, opera, history books, ancient texts . In everyday speaking "tảo" still has the same meaning but use in different situation like "tảo tần" (早頻 hard working) . tảo hôn (早婚 arranged child marriage in the old days) However the meaning is not the same, the sound of 早 in Cantonese is Chouz, very simillar to "Chào" so could it be in the ancient days, when you first met someone you greet them with "請早" (please to early meet you, know you see you ..... first hand, forefront) or another exact sound and meaning 清早 cing zou (early morning) in Chinese, That's how Vietnamese greet someone Xin Chào ??????? My guessing, could be right, could be wrong. Obviously people don't greet each other at night back in the days when people go to bed as soon as the sun set, so early morning is the time to say hello to people you see . Cám ơn (感恩) again Chinese don't use this form, the 2 words combine with other words to form many ways of thanks and gratitude, but they don't go together. The exact translation for 感恩 to Vietnamese should be "cảm ân" but in some odd odd ways these 2 Vietnamese also can combine with other words to form many ways of thanks and gratitude but they don't go together . In Vietnamese the same word could be said and written different ways due to the regional dialects or the royal court . If someone in the royal family has certain names, the common people cannot use them, instead they have to sound it to another form this in Vietnamese call "kỵ húy" . That's why nhân becomes nhơn, tôn- tông, hoa- hòe, hoàng- huỳnh, phúc-phước, thụ- thọ, đang- đương, thụy-thoại, hoa- huê, cảnh- kiểng, thì- thời, san- sơn, nhậm- nhiệm etc ....maybe someone in the royal courth was named "Ân" back in the days, so "ơn" came to live Back to Cám ơn , I'm very sure it's 感恩. Cảm tạ 感謝 is use in Chinese in Vietnamese, but in Vietnamese it's very formal, usually in written text, movies, music, religions . Tạ ơn 謝恩 also formal, usually in religions for gods, or to praise soldiers, teachers, even lovers in music, poetry, Vietnanmese use this for Thanksgiving Day (Lễ Tạ Ơn) . Đa tạ 多謝 thanks you in everyday Chinese usage is also use in Vietnamese, however Vietnamese only use this music, poetry, movies, less formal than the latter, Đa tạ 多謝 can also use in speech but has to be on stage, news, or in third person, representing someone, group to thanking someone older, respectful or a group, organization, you can use it direct from person to person but it sounds weird if not comical, like they try to imitate movies, operas . That's my take on only 2 simple Vietnamese words, there are so many more I could go on and one but that would take forever . Another simple word "sáng" (morning, bright) in Vietnamese the sounds is pretty much 上 (top) in Chinese .... could it be morning means when the sun reaches the top, sunrise in the early day??????????? Chào buổi sáng (good morning) in Vietnamese is this: 早班上 ??? .....班 is "ban" in Vietnamese same sound same meaning .....however like I mentioned earlier Vietnam has this system" kỵ húy" which could triggered "ban" to "buổi" similar meaning use in same and different contexts if combined with different words.
I forget one thing, I think you got it right with "bông" for flower . Northern Vietnamese call flower "hoa" same with Mandarin, they don't call "bông" in northern Vietnam . However southern Vietnamese use "bông" for flower. Trace back to history central Vietnam used to be belonged to Champa kingdom, and southern Vietnam belonged to ChanLap kingdom. The Khmer empire defeated Chanlap and took over southern Vietnam, then Vietnam defeated the Khmer and took over southern Vietnam in the 17-18th. The Chams people from Champa kingdom were muslim, today there are still a small population of CHams people in central Vietnam and Cham's temples could be found all over the central part of the country . History had it that a king or prince from Cham kingdom migrated to Indonesia and married to a tribe or a kingdom in one of the Indonesia islands ....so there must be a connection as to why only southern Vietnamese use the term "bông" for flower. After many waves of migrants from the north to the south, today southern Vietnamese using "bông" and "hoa" interchangeable for flower, in northern Vietnam the term "bông" is understood in most situations especially when they go together "bông-hoa"....if "bông" is used alone in northern Vietnam it's referring to cotton, anything that deals with cotton and pillow, blanket, animal stuffing . Also fireworks in northern Vietnam is "pháo hoa" (fire flower) and southern Vietnam uses "pháo bông" (fire flower) .......cologne or perfume in northern Vietnam is "nước hoa" (water flower) whereas the south they call it "dầu thơm" (oil fragrance) So after watching this Video I think anything Vietnamese cannot trace their root to Chinese could be searched in Indo, Malay languages
I think a lot of Vietnamese words do have Chinese origin, but the use of "kỵ húy" in your reasoning is too farfetched. The practice is a formal policy of the prestiges in antique society, so any implemented should be recorded. You try too hard to find connections between words that you fell for confirmation bias. Following your logic, the word beauty from mandarin 美 is derived from the English word May. Basically, May was such a beautiful month that the Chinese decided to adopt the word for "beaty". Of course any words in any language will be seen shared with other languages, after all all of them evolved from one.
@@nguyennguyenhuy7730 I simply brought up what I knew based on many many many many many words....... not just 5-10, or 20-30 ........The situation happened all over and the same with English, French, Spanish, German, Dutch, Russia, Poland and all of the European languages ....so are Asian languages, Thai people call Korea "Cao Lee" ...which Vietnamese used to call Korea "Cao Ly" too back 100 + years ago, but Thai people kept this and Vietnamese adopted another name "Han Quoc" ............You are the one trying hard to find the connection between Chinese and English when the 2 didn't collide until the what what century??????? and Chinese and Vietnam rubbed shoulders and sniff each other diapers from which century?????
@@anhbinbaccuc8850 I sarcastically brought up the 美 example because whenever two words from Vietnamese and Chinese sound ever slightly similar, like "tảo" and "chào", you try to make a connection between them based entirely on the soft link of "shared history", even though the words themselves share as much connection as the "美" example, which happens even without the link. It was obviously wrong, and that's the point. There exists similarity, but not everywhere and if you look too hard for connections, you will find one even though there is none, which is confirmation bias. Furthermore, you not only brought up what you know, but you induced that the situation that you found must be true for the entire Vietnamese vocabulary. You didn't even find the Cham equivalent of "bông" but utterly dismissed the chance that Southerners came up with the word. On a side note, you also dismissed the possibility of two languages evolving from a common mother one. I will prove you wrong: find the equivalent of 3 words "thăm thẳm", "lung linh" and "nhẹ" from those other languages. Use solid argument to connect the words.
Sino-Vietnamese = Tang Dynasty Middle Chinese Pure Vietnamese = Proto-Khmer grammar + Han Dynasty Old Chinese vocabulary Modern Vietnamese = everything above + French loan words + English loan words + teen codes
Vietnamese grammar would be closest to Tay-Thai because they’re the longest neighbors together with huge influence from Chinese. There’s very little Mon Khmer left in Vietnamese
Pure Vietnamese has nothing to do with Khmer. The Vietnamese language belongs to the Vietic branch of the Austroasiatic language. The Vietic branch is much bigger with more speakers than the Khmer branch.
The fact the you speak so many Asian languages is amazing. You should make a video about your language learning journey, I'd be very interested in learning about your story.
youre a real good role model in learning for learning asian languages i i notice alot of unattainable expectations and nit picking in learning asian languages
but i wouldnt say vietnamese literacy was improved because of the roman script i would say that it was improved with the roman script and i have some detests with the way its spelled similar to the frame work of pinyin it was designed to teach foreigners to learn the language without the script which just so happened to be french (in vietnam) so the transcriptions are geard toward a french pronunciation which itself was a make shift language i dont mean to intrude
Excellent! I haven't met anyone who has Mandarin, Cantonese, Vietnamese, Japanese, Korean, Thai Lao, Indonesian, Malay, Hindi, Nepali, and Tibetan in their language repertoire but it seems you will in the future.. it would be interesting to code switch and discuss the languages together.
I need to work on my nepali and Tibetan... worked on it listening to your audio book story! I can read them all though. Studied Dzongka for a while too
Facts are facts. People are always offended. Glad you're showing a light on this. Like said, languages are alive. Always merging and changing like our DNA .🎉 Hats off to you.
I'am so thankful that you are trying to make a connection between the differences and similarities from the languages. It really is refreshing to see our connection to each other. ❤💯
Vietnamese is a Sino-Tai patois spoken by Sinicized native Mon-Khmers (Muong). Hence all the relations. Being Vietnamese, learning Thai and Cantonese is super easy to me. Bông is only used in Central-southern Vietnamese and is borrowed from Cham.
Wow, what a fascinating way to learn Vietnamese vocabulary. Let's recount the steps: 1. Remember some 1000+ Hanzi characters + their sound + their meaning 2. Upon encountering a chữ Nôm character, determine if it's really chữ Nôm or just straight up Hanzi borrowed to represent Sino-Vietnamese word. 3. If it's really chữ Nôm, let's see which part is the meaning component and which part is the sound component. 4. Finally, determine the sound of such character makes, notice that sound change may occur at the onset or the rhyme or both, with each Cantonese or Mandarin onset corresponding with 2-3 different Vietnamese consonants, and the rhyme a lot more, so have fun with guessing. 5. Decide on the tone. Yes, it would create an elaborate pathway that is "not easily forgotten" once one makes connections, but I doubt that retrieving it would be in matter of milisecs or less. Now let's see the steps of learning via Quoc Ngu script: 1. See the character 2. Remember how each letter should be pronounced 3. Pronounce it Oh, and the plus is that you don't even have to remember that specific word, just the rules of pronunciation, so when encountering a character that you have seen before but failed to learn how it is pronounced, you can simply "relearn" it by literally look at the character and bam. Another plus is that when encountering a brand new word, one you have never seen before, you still know how to pronounce it. So I would say that the "connection" method is not particularly useful even to Westerners who are already well-versed in Chinese and Thai and such. "BUT WHAT ABOUT THE MEANING? ISN'T MY WHOLE POINT IS HOW THE CONNECTION BETWEEN THE MEANING OF THESE LANGUAGES WORTHWHILE TO ADAPT THIS APPROACH?" I have bad news for you. I understand the meaning and sound of the components of 㕵, 籺, and 拠 and can't even make out what these characters mean. That first character that you pronounced was pronounced a little different by Vietnamese. You see, we would treat the "uô" as one diphthong, so /u͜o/ instead of /wo/ as whatever you did there. At first, I even thought that 㕵 is "vang" (echo). The second character is actually "hạt" and not "hột" ("hột" is Southern dialect of the same word or a Cantonese, Hokkien, Hakka??? dialect that's got borrowed to Southern Vietnamese due to trade and migration of the Southern Chinese; I don't know much about it, but it's definitely of Sinitic origin). The third character is interesting, it seems like a straight borrowing of sound and a disregard for meaning. "Cứ" doesn't actually mean "continue" but rather a particle very similar to "still" in English (compare "Ông ta cứ nói lảm nhảm" → "He is still blabbering"). In other cases, it is a discourse particle with little to no meaning at all but simply to keep the flow of an utterance and usually present in directives, allowances, which I think could be similar to "just" (compare "Anh cứ làm đi!" → "(You) Just do it!"; "Chị cứ nói thẳng!" → "(You) Just say it straight to my face!";...). Please tell me how any of these uses links back to the meaning of either the "hand" component, the "place" component", or even the whole component, which is "ground, base" as shown. And you intentionally left out the "multiplicity" part of the chữ Nôm. So let's me reiterate with a new example from this video. The final character in the first sentence you showed "Ông ấy già lắm rồi." ← this word, "rồi", is represented by the 耒. That character happens to be used also for "rỗi" (free of work, have no work to do), "lỗi" (mistake), lồi ("convex"), "lội" (to wade through a body of water). So good luck with "connecting the dots and finding the beauty in the tapestry of the history" when encountering 耒 for the 10th time in a text, I guess.
not at all. you've created a bunch of strawmen there. luckily if you watch enough of my clips you'll realise most of your ideas are redundant. the fact is that there are billions of us on the planet who do read characters and there are logical patterns as to sound shifts and even tone shifts. This has allowed me to develop professional fluency in many languages and continue to learn more. But that's okay ... you can go and make excuses why it's bad or crazy, and in the meantime we will be hear learning. the human brain is an amazing thing that thankfully is designed to match the fuzzy logic patterns like this extremely well.
It makes total sense when you understand the shifts and tone shifts / sandhi. Knowing Hanzi gives an amazing advantage in remembering words and guesstimating new vocab - and facilitating retention.
@@StuartJayRaj I wouldn't dare say anything on the remembering part (as different people have different remembering tactics that would work for them but not others), but you did terrible on the guesstimating part. Out of the 5 characters you've shown, you correctly guessed "già" (same as I did, so congrats), you mispronounced "uống" (a major mispronunciation at that and you didn't even manage to make a guess similar to "uống" at all), so 20%. What a good "guesstimate" compared to Quoc Ngu script.
10:32 for Hakka-Chinese and Xiang-Chinese, already a word stands for 來+男, it’s 倈, which also means boy, male, etc. The recording of the word can be traced back even to Yuan-dynasty (1279-1368)
At around 14:00 the word for grain, seed can also be "hạt". It sounds closer to the word in Thai and I think is more commonly used than "hột. Hope this help you remember. Love your videos.❤ Keep them coming.
excellent video, shouldn't be any controversy - this is an exemplary service you're doing to all involved. I've long been interested in learning more about chu nom and these videos have definitely been satisfying. I really like the glossika course that includes them as well. on an aside, i almost spit out my water when i heard you pronounce 'arsenal' XDD
In Teochew, language in Chaozhou, Guangdong province, the word 'eye' is pronounced [mak], which might be the link to the the 'mat' in Vietnamese and 'mata' in Malay as well as in Indonesian?
I've always had a suspicion and now you've confirmed it for me! You're are really awesome in this thing of yours👍 I think your critics are seeing through extreme-nationalism/ racism/politically-brainwashed narrow-colored lense. Keep up the good work. I enjoyed it alot
Hi Stuart! So nice to have found u. I'm also a Chinese, Thai, Indonesian speaker. Learning vietnamese now. Thanks for sharing the way you learn. Highly relevant:) i think vietnamese is going to be super easy for me :)
I feel pity about Han-Tu(Hanzi), instead of making a scripts or alphabet based on Han-Tu, we using the latin scripts instead, i mean look at the bright side, Quoc-ngu(Latin scripts) helps Vietnamese to memorize and learn faster, but the negative are not less, since the symbol words switched to sound words, many meaning got misunderstood or vanished from its original meaning, which confusing alots.
The latin scripts is not that bad, just like Korea use hangul, but Viet Nam don't teach Han Viet (sino-Vietnamese) for the student in school, and this is the thing make Vietnamese confuse.
@@vuluongtrieu2609 . Everyone form structure of language have its unique value, expression, ect. Latin Alphabet letters structure Vietnamese is used Roman Alphabet letters A B C , stress tones sign to form the spoken language of Kinh people in Writing by Western Sino-Schoolar Ministers - 西方傳教士漢學家 (Các Nhà Truyền Giáo Phương Tây Nhà Hán Học) is called Chữ Quốc Ngữ, nơwadays Vietnamese, Tiếng Việt. Tiếng Việt is with 80% of Sino - Vietnamese (Tiếng Hán Việt) that is based on Chữ Nho = 儒字 = Ru Zi, or Chữ Hán = 漢字 = Han Zi, Chữ Nôm = 喃字 = Nom or Han - Nom Chinese characters Writing Script, due to Chữ Nôm = 喃字 = Hán Nom is very complex and is difficult to learn and Chữ Nho Ru Zi or Chữ Hán Han Zi is popular to use and Tiếng Việt, Latin Alphabet letters structure Vietnamese is with 80% of Sino - (Vietnamese Tiếng Hán Việt). Each form structure of language have its unique value, expression function, etc and it cannot replace by the others form structure of language due to its unique value, ect. Such as the word :Thanh in Chữ Nho or Chữ Hán is 聲 = Sound (âm thanh), Thanh in Chữ Nho or Chữ Hán is 清 = Clear or clean (thanh khiết, thanh minh) And also in Kạni, Hiragana, Katakana form structure of language have its unique value, ect and it cannot replace each other. Korean is invented the Squared shape Alphabet letters structure and vowels and Han Zi is still place a important role in their country due to each form structure of language have its unique value, ect and most Korean ancestor's Writing Material is written in Chinese characters Writing Script.
Its not really THAT confusing to us vietnamese tbh 👈 yeah its true that the meaning arent really the same anymore but we have SO MANY complex words to make up for it
I'm not a Vietnamese but oddly enough as someone who speaks Mandarin and reads Chinese, I can relate to your statement. Because the Chinese characters always symbolize or may I say foreshadow what a particular word means. Even though if you don't know or forget how a character sounds, you will still have a good chance at guessing what it's about by analyzing the strokes. This is something that the alphabet-based writing system can't do. The 'story' of each Vietnamese word is lost.
As a Chinese, I think this is very interesting. I may start to learn Vietnamese after I learned French. Those Chinese who said Chinese characters should be only used in Chinese are narrow-minded. We should appreciate that other cultures were learning from our culture and we should learn from them too. And indeed we did, modern Chinese borrowed so many words from Japanese. If the narrow-minded Chinese want to get rid of those words, they will not be able to speak. So for those narrow-minded Chinese, I just want to say 文化越开放包容，影响力越大，敝帚自珍只能堕落成井底之蛙。
People should know that China has a rebellious province-Taiwan. The Taiwan government has raised a large group of cyber soldiers, and outsiders call them "1450". These "1450" cyber troops have long pretended to be mainland Chinese and made some insults to the people of other countries. Of course, if they post in Chinese, they post in simplified characters.
Vietnamese language right now base on 2 system combine. Sino- vietnamese ( Han-viet) 60 % and Vietnamese ( chu nom) 40 % our ancest spend 3 century to invented the word drink in vietnamese meaning ( uong) we use two character chinese to build the [mouth+king] in sino-vietnamese are called [ khau+Vuong] or [ mieng+vua]
As a Chinese, Chu Nom is a WAY better tool to learn Vietnamese than romanised Quoc Ngu LOL. Most modern Vietnamese may not care for such an important historical script FROM THEIR OWN own culture due to sheer ignorance & political "feelings", but Chu Nom definitely helps Chinese & Japanese memorise Vietnamese vocabulary words SO MUCH MORE EASIER. Thank you for these lessons!
we did not ignore them, we was forced to do it .im not far right or ultra nationalist but current latin helped Viet to be good at learning western language , but being isolated in sinophere partly.
We don't ignore it though, and I promise it's not because of politics. It's just that after WW2, almost everyone in the country did not have any education. So we chose the Latin script which is an easier writing system, to spread education among people as fast as possible. There were attempts to officialise the Chữ Nôm again, but was taken down due to the complexity of it.
Chu Nom is just for fun or history research! It's very awkward and inefficient for modern technology or academic contexts if we continue to use Chu Nom. For anyone who wants to learn some history and original meaning of Vietnamese word, it's useful but so wasting time and then got nothing than some knowledge about history. So as Vietnamese, we are very proud and grateful to the French for bringing Chu Quoc Ngu. And it's a pity that Vietnamese people can't use Romanized Chu Quoc Ngu a bit earlier before the French came.
For those Vietnamese who say NOT using Chinese characters led to the increase in literacy rate is an insult to ourselves. China and Japan continued to use Chinese characters and achieved over 95% literacy rate. And you people are saying Vietnamese can't achieve that with using Sino-script? Please think before you even say anything regarding this great modification of Chinese characters to fit Vietnamese language. The Quoc Ngu is another invention of the Portuguese and then the French. It's not 100% Vietnamese. However, Chu Nom IS purely a Vietnamese way of describing the language WITHOUT Chinese input.
Wow, what a coincidence finding this video! I have been learning Vietnamese for 2,5 years now (I achieved C1) and I am about to tackle learning Mandarin. I was wondering if I should try to learn Chinese through Vietnamese or if I should just do it from English which I know better. Seeing all the similarities between Vnese et Chinese though, I might learn Chinese from Vnese sources 😁 it could be easier
Giving others the freedom to be stupid is one of the most important and hardest steps to take in spiritual progress. Conveniently the opportunity to take that step is all around us every day.
Chữ "nó" cũng khá là hay, tại có bộ nam, bộ nữ, còn một bộ nữa trung tính không rõ ký tự, tổng hợp lại thành "it". Vielleicht es is "das" als neutrum Artikel in Deutch, a way to bypass the strict social order of man in relation to women and everything in between. Nếu thấy hứng thú còn có thể chiết tự cả từ "mạo từ", chắc là theo nghĩa của "diện mạo" -:面貌" hoặc "面貌", , nhưng ở đây lại trở thành quan từ, hoàn toàn khác chữ luôn, "冠词" có thể hiểu theo nghĩa là quan hệ. Nhìn chung là rất khó để hiểu một cách trừu tượng, nếu không thật nghiên cứu chuyên sâu vào vấn đề này. Nếu là tay ngang thì nên cưỡi ngựa xem hoa cho vui vậy.
Chinese characters are specifically for the Chinese language? How do you explain Japanese kanji or Korean Hanja, or all the Chinese-derived writing systems used by certain ethnic minorities (Bai or Zhuang, for example)?
Vietnamese grammar is 90% the same at Mandarin. I had a phase where I learnt some Vietnamese on Duolingo and within weeks was reading and having written conversations on hello talk but I couldn't speak at all. Good times lol
Wow, it's very good content. We appreciate your effort. To me, as a person who can use both English and Mandarin, Chu Quoc Ngu is a great gift and the most contribution from the French to the Vietnamese under their colonization. But this video is interesting too. Maybe for some Vietnamese who knew many Chinese characters, it's very curious and interesting to learn some of our own old scripts like this way。 但是喃字在现代学术的背景使用很尴尬。如果我们继续使用喃字，要努力把喃字简单化起来，真不容易的！
The Quốc Ngữ script was invented by a Portuguese missionary with the help of local Vietnamese, the French merely implemented its use in schools and abolished the used of Chinese. Despite that the literacy rate during colonial era was extremely low. In fact, only when the Viet Minh took control over the North was the script officially taught widely in favor of traditional Chinese and Nom script to boost national literacy rate. For that the French couldn't really take credit, so no, it's not a gift or contribution from the French, like at all.
@@cuongpham6218 I understand your point. I’m not a Pro-French or Pro-Chinese person either. But I really thought that without French colonization, we could have used Chu Nom forever. Even the colony policy only exploit Viet recourses and benefit the French, at least their colonization did help to abolish Han-Nom scripts dramatically. I think it’s still a good luck for Vietnamese people to use Chu Quoc Ngu like it is today.
@@DienLeChannel Nah I don't think it's a blessing at all. Chu Quoc Ngu, as convenient as it is, doesn't represent our culture well. In fact, being ignorance of Han-Nom cut a large portion of modern Vietnamese from their ancestral culture, resulting in hilarious situations like people in Hanoi worshipping a stone tablet with literal inscription of "get off the horse" in Văn Miếu, just because it has Chinese characters on it. People can't read ancient texts of their own ancestors anymore, and get a very superficial understanding of their own traditions. You can argue that Han-Nom is very complex and doesn't help improve literacy as well as Chu Quoc Ngu. Fine, that's a good point, but it all depends on the policy. Just look at Taiwan, they are still using traditional characters no less, or Japan, where they have to learn at least 3 kinds of scripts including Kanji. Despite those the literacy rate there is almost 100%. P/S: Another point, we don't have to abolish Chu Quoc Ngu and install back Chu Nom, we could do it like the South Koreans do. Make Han-Nom optional in school. That way students can have a basic understanding of the script and how they can build new words from the Han-Nom components correctly, not from wild guessing like it is now.
@@cuongpham6218 I agree and disagree with you at some points. After reaching a certain level of Mandarin and Chinese characters, I started feeling Chu Quoc Ngu is the best choice for our people. And I believe I will keep thinking having Chu Quoc Ngu is the best luck even the Vietnamese had lost a little bit much from understanding our old Han-Nom scripts. For people who want to learn more about our history or ancestral culture like you and me, we can self-learn. I really love the idea to bring Chu Nom back to early schools as an option like the Japanese or Korean are doing, which you suggested but I think the way we teach Chu Nom nowadays in the college is quite acceptable. In my opinion, having Chu Nom back to early schools even as an option is really a challenge. Yes, but if we try to do so, I guess, our Chu Nom scholars need to make some great efforts to standardize and simplify it.
口王 uong sounds like the word 饮yin3 which means drink or beverage only used for formal words the oral mandarin prefers 喝 which only have the meaning of drink (verb) but 饮 can mean beverage (noun)
I just checked from Google translation, beverage in English to Korean 음료 eumlyo this is definitely a Chinese word 饮料 yin3Liao4, it looks very similar to uong in Vietnamese
I am really confused, the Vietnamese numeral system is much more similar to the Mon, Bahnar and Aslian languages which are non-tonal. But the tonality system and vocabularies show more similarities to Tay, like "Muong" itself is a Tay word means "Place/Land" or something.
Vietnamese is a member of the Austroasiatic language family, which Mon, Bahnar, and Aslian languages also belong to. This means that many basic terms like the numeral system are similar across these languages. However, Vietnamese lies in a rather interesting geographic location, as it is the crossroad of different language families like Austroasiatic, Austronesian, Tai-Kradai and Sino-Tibetan. Plus the fact that Vietnam was under Chinese rule for more than 1000 years. This resulted in the patchwork that is Vietnamese vocabulary, which consists of up to 60-70% of words originated in Chinese. The tonogenesis is harder to explain, but i might have had to do with geography, as many languages in the Southeast Asian sprachbund (which also includes Southern Chinese varieties) have similar tone systems.
Yes, Vietnamese is an Austroasiatic language and nothing to feel shame about it. Austroasiatic has a rich history and a dominant language family of all the Mainland SEA before the migration of Tai-Kadai and Sino-Tibetan
2 роки тому
I dont know about the offension you got from the last clip. But I totally aggree with your method of learning new Asian language. I share the same way of formulating new words from neighbor languages. Keep moving and get rid of the "nationalism" around here! :D By the way, the word Ấy 𧘇 is pronounced with a short /ə̆/. As you pronounced in the clip, it was /ə/ which is written "Ới" instead. And the word Cả 哿 means "big", "elder" in old Vietnamese but now rarely used as a single word.
17:33 the character 哿 is actually used in Cantonese, and it’s not even rare - we have the term 娿哿 (ō goh), which is an adjective to describe someone who is troublesome or picky. Very interesting topic tho, hoping some more similar content in the future!!
Were there really some Chinese trolls who would voice unhappiness that a foreign tribe would be using a variant of Chinese language? I highly doubt that. Usually a person feel pride that his culture is being adopted by foreign tribes. I as a Chinese would feel glad to see more of the world take effort to learn and know Chinese, same as Vietnamese would feel proud if more people learn and use Vietnamese. So I suspect the negativity comes primarily from Vietnamese nationalists who want to exaggerate their tribal uniqueness.
There are many, many more Chinese family of scripts and scripts inspired by Chinese characters, such as Tangut and Jurchen characters. Wish you could cover them in the future!
陈 Chen is mandarin 华语 Chan is Cantonese 广东话 Chin is Hakka 客家话 Tan is Hokkien 福建话, MinNan 闽南语 (Taiwanese Hokkien) Tang is TeoChew 潮州话 Ting is Hokchew 福州话 (FuZhou) Etc...
@@tangtony1536 Yes, almost all of Vietnamese surnames have Chinese roots, just like Korean surnames. The most common Vietnamese name, Nguyen for example, is the Sino-Vietnamese reading of this character: 阮.
@@tangtony1536 No, the surname Nguyen has nothing to do with the Jin Dynasty. There is a noble Nguyen House in the history of Vietnam, and the reason why so many Vietnamese bear this surname has to do with its tumultuous history where many people were forced to change their name to avoid persecution.
If I ever get time, I'd like to go back into programming and develop a tool to allow clipboard text, whole files, or web pages to be converted into chu nom.
Malay using sancrit at first so they might have some similarity. Mongolian, and some northern part of Russian also have some mixture with ancient Han though Like 女真族
The Nom script generator is just a Google sheet where I've imported the chunom CSV list from chunom.org and then just designed my own UI in the spreadsheet cells and pull characters in at random from one sheet to the other. We did it together in Mindkraft. I might do a clip in the future to do a walkthrough of it.
Vietnamese script was created by Portuguese missionaries, French merely took credit for it because they disseminated it more widely/they were the colonial power. Otherwise great vid!
Vietnamese nationalism wants to exaggerate uniqueness and not wanting to lose identity to China and Chinese, those are the reasons for the push back against connections with Chinese as much as possible, unless or until a romantic relationship should be formed with a Chinese individual.
I'm Chinese, don't take those comment of ccp internet army for serious. if you traveling china you will find out Chinese people love to see other people speak any type of chinese,
those vietnamese and chinese who are just in denial really need to sit down and take a look back in the history of the 2. So their's logic is chinese is chinese and it shouldn't be in any of others language . Ok and look back at history the Chinese ruled Vietnam for 1000 year so all those year chinese script are well teach through out many many generation of the Vietnamese therefore that's why Vietnam has it. And same goes for delusional Vietnamese saying those script are belong to their own people ? well they need to also sit down and read some history do some research too ! . Anyyway thank you for doing this kind of Video to educate us .
Every Vietnamese who's saying they're proud of Chữ Quốc Ngữ because it is original to Vietnamese doesn't realize that Chữ Quốc Ngữ came from the West, which is even less original than Chữ Nôm.
To me, as a person who can use both English and Mandarin, Chu Quoc Ngu is a great gift and the most contribution from the French to the Vietnamese under their colonization. But this video is interesting too. Maybe for some Vietnamese who knew many Chinese characters, it's very curious and interesting to learn some of our own old scripts like this way. Yes, I am really proud to have Chu Quoc Ngu using nowadays but not the reason it's from the West.
@@DienLeChannel As a Hong Konger, I prefer Chu quoc ngu rather than nom characters even though I am able to recognise both Nom and Han characters. If I learn Vietnamese with Han or nom characters, I won't be able to learn the pronunciation properly.
Bạn đang bị nhầm lẫn giữa " tiếng"& " chữ"??? Người Việt Nam tự hào vì gìn giữ được tiếng nói nhé,chữ quốc ngữ để ghi âm tiếng nói nên nó giữ được ngôn ngữ.chữ quốc ngữ do người phương tây mang đến là đúng & người Việt Nam đã biết vận dụng nó cho mình.Nhật Bản & Hàn Quốc có muốn cũng không thể làm được do đã bị Hán hoá quá nặng.
The Vietnamese young people have no idea about their ancestors. They don’t accepted what is the true stories about their pass. . They even give up their ancestors written language and adopted the French culture and Latin way of writing. Therefore not much Vietnam can read what was their ancestors wrote books about their pass
This is very interesting, but your audience must be very restricted. You would have to at least be able to read Chinese to understand all this. I have worked as a Chinese and Japanese translator and also speak pretty good Thai and Cantonese. I get along somewhat in Korean, Hindi and Vietnamese, but have always wondered why the old Vietnamese characters looked so weird. Now I know.
80% of modern Vietnamese vocabulary is from Chinese lol. The Chinese Empire played the same role in East Asia as the Roman Empire played in Europe...Vietnam was founded by Zhao Tuo, a Chinese general and was a tributary state of China until the French colonized them.
Really what i told you those language form china very diferent from Nôm language form Vietnam .You seriously doesn't understand history about China and Vietnam .You talk like Vietnam need China is bullshit
@@yypsdennis actually the 40 % you are talking about is the official sino Vietnamese vocabulary but there’s an additional 30 % that was borrowed from old Chinese and is considered as native Vietnamese but when you study mon Khmer languages and old Chinese there’s no possibility these words come from mon Khmer languages. So the real amount of sino-Vietnamese is around 70%
@@alant367 It depends on the definition of Chinese. Actually, many so called loan words are from Teochew or Cantonese dialect which couldn't be understand by most of Mandarin speakers. Moreover, some of so called Sino-Vietnamese words just borrowed the pronunciation and changed the original meaning later on.
people who taking offences easily are very annoying to watch to be honest, very low emotion intelligence and yet they are proud, much stupidity I don't wanna say more
this flawed argument about education level increase due to French is just asinine. Take a look at China's current % of educated people vs in the Ching era. How about the Taiwanese and Japanese? Ditching the Chinese character has nothing to do with increased education levels. Interesting how Stuart uses language to push his propaganda. Amazing gymnastic I have to admit.
having those links has sped up the ability to acquire language structures and vocab - it's a gift to any language learner who already has a background in a sinitic , tai, Austronesian or mon Khmer language. The more the merrier
@@khoalengoc1372 liên quan gì, tiếng Trung biết khi học ngữ Văn cho mượt một cách Hàn Lâm chứ học giao lưu tà tà biết tiếng Trung có khi dễ gây rối nữa.
Tôi là người Hồng Kông, tôi thích chữ quốc ngữ nhiều hơn chữ Hán và chữ nôm, nhất là chữ Hán mad ko thể thể hiện ngôn ngữ sử dụng của tiếng Việt hoàn toàn
Hi, Sino-Vietnamese is a special case among the Sino-Xenic languages in which it consists of distinct layers of borrowings from different periods of Chinese. The most common, easy-to-distinguish layer of Sino-Vietnamese is also the standardized Sino-Vietnamese reading system taken from the Tang Middle Chinese. However, as Vietnam was under Chinese rule since the Han dynasty, there was an even older layer of Sino-Vietnamese words borrowed from this era, resulting in a double borrowing phenomenon, often with two readings of the same character emerging in two different words with different nuances/meanings. For example the character 味 which has the standard reading of vị (taste), which many Vietnamese can tell right away that it's a borrowed word, but it also has an older reading of mùi, which means smell, and most Vietnamese would assume that this is a native word. As you can see, the older reading also reflects the older Chinese pronunciation of this character, and linguistics have used Sino-Vietnamese as a helping tool to construct older Chinese pronunciation, which I find pretty cool.
This is so true. I speak three Chinese dialects and currently learning Vietnamese. This phenomenon is fascinating. Like the word 心 is pronounced Tâm and Tim. 卷 is cuốn and quyển. 近 is gần, cạnh, cận . 人 is nhân, nhơn.
All these have the same roots but now are used under different situations. Some of these are closer to one dialect than another.
@@Laggie74 another word i just remember like you mention is 娘 is Nương and Nàng, 安 is An and Yên, 寳 bảo and báu
The same happen with Kanji. Japanese just still use the Chinese character and have more understanding of the root and origin pronunciation of Sino word than us.
@@Laggie74 You got this point exactly right : "All these have the same roots but now are used under different situations. Some of these are closer to one dialect than another."
Same thing goes to English, French, Italian, German, Spanish , Portuguese, Dutch etc, same words or similar words have same meaning but use in different ways and contexts in their native countries /languages
Same with most Chinese "dialects" like Yue (Cantonese) or Wu (Shanghainese) & especially Southern Min languages like Hokkien, Taiwanese & Teochew. There's a standardised layer of Middle Chinese, but also a substratum of older pronunciations. Most notable would be Southern Min, with a lot of core vocabulary from Old Chinese. You can see it clearly with Sino-Japanese as well with 2 sets of readings for Kanji --- Kan'on & Go'on (Han & Wu pronunciations) taken from different time periods; there are even readings called TouSou'on (Tang Song pronunciations) mostly for Zen religious lexicon & MinShin'on (Ming & Qing pronunciations) which are for more late borrowings (like "gyoza") Vietnamese seems to have a lot of different layers as well, given the cultural contact & influence from China over the centuries. It would be fascinating to uncover them all. I'm fascinated with Old Chinese borrowings in Thai as well, given that there was early cultural influence also from ancient China, but the Thai then gravitated towards India for their higher culture & language, so the borrowings stopped (except for more modern food terms, of course; everyone loves Chinese food LOL).
This is amazing!
I am Thai with southern Chinese parents, and used to live Hanoi for 2 years.
This is the same feeling as when I started learning Vietnamese in Hanoi. Many times I heard new Vietnamese words and I knew them right away, because they were the same words as southern Chinese or Thai! That really inspired me to learn more, and learnt with fun.
The relationship of Asian languages are wonderful.
People are actually very mixed. Worthless to fight for nationalism, since we are all mixture of many different human gene pools.
I never associated Vietnamese language with Thai, because I thought Thai was another spectrum which was heavily influenced by India in the west, until I watched this video of these girls comparing Korean, CHinese, Thai and Viet . The Thai girl said they call Korea "Kao Lee" which is so remotely off from any similarity to other languages until you dig into history, Vietnamese used to call Korea "Cao Ly" in ancient text, originated word came from China to refer to Korea . Nowadays Vietnamese only known Korea as Đại Hàn or Hàn Quốc, so if you don't read history text you would never know Vietnam once call Korea the same way Thai did . I'm sure there are many more if only we mastered the languages .
@@anhbinbaccuc8850 "Kao Lee" or "Cao Ly", also known as "Go Ryeo" in Korean, was a dynasty, and this is actually where the word Korea was derived from. Đại Hàn or Hàn Quốc, on the other hand, is what the South Korean government calls themselves today.
@@anhbinbaccuc8850 You're right. Actually there are not that much common words in Thai and Vietnamese, since the Thai language are so influenced by Indian.
However, the way to put words in sentences between Thai and Vietnamese is very similar. For example, adjectives are behind nouns, not in the front like Chinese or English. We just learn vocabularies and then put them in sentences the same way we do in our own language, say them, and most the time people understand them! That's totally impossible to do with English.
@@anurakmasayavanich9634 Only Thai-Siam has been influenced by Indian that much. If you learn Northern or Northeastern Thai, you will see the common words sharing between Thais and minority in Southern China.
Moreover, many pure Thai word has similarity to Ancient Chinese that connected to Southern Chinese.
@@anurakmasayavanich9634 You can see the similarity number in Thai, Southern Chinese, and Korean.
Before I entered University, I was always, like many other Vietnamese, triggered by the concept of borrowing words and writing system from China. I was trying so hard to dismiss the fact that thousand years of cultural interference would obviously affects our language. But when I went to Uni and took a Vietnamese cultural course I was very inspired by how we tried to make Chinese characters into something very unique to our own and how similar thing happens to other sinosphere countries like Korea and Japan but not quite in the same way. Very fun.
A simple explanation is human pride at work, that somehow my tribe is more unique, stronger, more prosperous, more inventive. That's the underlying reason in my opinion why Vietnamese would wish for as little Chinese elements as possible, to the point of minimizing through exaggeration.
It's understandable. Vietnam gained independence from the Chinese more than 1000 years ago. Chinese people still do not accept their language was changed due to 1000 years under the ruling of northern nomads although they just regained their ruling less than 100 years ago. Also, if you study Mandarin, you will find it's very foreign, sounds nothing like the Sino-Vietnamese you know.
@@vanhoang4587 .
Any Kinh people understand their ancestor 's Chinese characters Writing Script is Chữ Nho, Chữ Hán must be understood or Master Han Nom Latin Alphabet letters structure, Kinh people is called Chữ Quốc Ngữ, nowadays Vietnamese, Tiếng Việt in proficiency and is easily to study Kanji. Nowadays, It is a lot of Kinh people working and studying in Japan.
Nowadays, most people understand several languages but Kinh people is unable to read their ancestor's Chinese characters Writing Script is Chữ Nho, Chữ Hán, Hán Nom in Temp of Văn Miếu, Hanoi (Chùa Văn Miếu tại Hà Nội) that is very pitty and sad for Kinh ethic in Vietnam.
@@nhanliu9695 I mean Chinese Mandarin words sound very different from their respective Sino Vietnamese ones despite both of them can be writen using the same Hanji/ Hán Tự
@@vanhoang4587 .
Kinh People is one of 54 ethics of Bai Yue and Kinh people in Annam/ Vietnam is heritaged the culture, Chinese characters Writing Script is called Hanzi/ Hán Tự that is constructed by 121 Chinese characters 字首/Bộ Thủ, since the Qing dynasty and Jiao Zhi/ Giao Chỉ/ 交 趾 ethics of Lạc Việt / 雒越/ Lou Yue, Âu Việt/甌越/Ao Yue is Annexed into state of Nam Việt/南越國 with ethics of Bai Yue by Zhao Tuo/ Triệu Đà/趙佗 have the Sheng Nong/神農/ Thần Nông culture and therefore Kinh people is one of 54 ethics of Bai Yue in Vietnam, this is the fact that Kinh people is heritaged culture, Chinese characters Writing Script of 54 ethics of Bai Yue in Vietnam. And therefore Hán Nom Latin Alphabet letters structure, kinh people is called Chữ Quốc Ngữ, nowadays Vietnamese, Tiếng Việt is in diversity dialects of 54 Bai Yue ethics in Vietnam. That is simply and it is deedless to argue in anyway.
Nowadays Vietnamese, Tiếng Việt have 80% Sino - Vietnamese ( Tiếng Hán -Việt). Those who Kinh people understand their ancestor's Chinese characters Writing Script is Chữ Nho, Chữ Hán, Hán Nom must be understood Hán Nom Latin Alphabet letters structure, kinh people is called Chữ Quốc Ngữ, nowadays Vietnamese, Tiếng Việt in proficiency and is easily to study Kanji, ect.
It is sad you got hate comments on your previous video from Chinese trolls trying to gatekeep the Chinese characters and from Vietnamese trolls outright trying to reject their own culture and heritage. Glad to see you shining the light on Chữ Nôm and its importance in deeply understanding the Vietnamese language.
Tóm lại là, nếu nói từ hán - Việt là từ mượn của trung quốc là không đồng ý. Từ hán Việt giống với tiếng đường cổ, tiếng đường cổ ở trung quốc giờ không còn thì cơ sở đâu mà nói ai mượn ai.
Probably a bunch of schizos venting their anger because the simplified characters are so horrendous.
Modern / simplified Chinese is honestly quite bastardised. Learning traditional script and dialectal forms of Chinese are key to learning and understanding the rich history and cross-cultural exchanges throughout the sinosphere.
as a Chinese I find it stupid that there are people who believe they have exclusive rights to certain aspects of culture
I frankly doubt there were that many Chinese trolls who would "gatekeep the Chinese characters". First, most Chinese don't know and don't care much about Vietnam or Vietnamese culture, very unlike how Vietnamese think about China/Chinese. That's simply due to country size and country significance differentials, not necessary tribalism. Second, wouldn't a person feel pride that his culture is being adopted by foreign tribes? I as a Chinese would feel glad to see more of the world take effort to learn and know Chinese, same as Vietnamese would feel proud if more people learn and use Vietnamese. So I suspect the negativity comes primarily from Vietnamese nationalists who want to exaggerate their tribal uniqueness.
You are so marvellous to me. You absolutely understand deeper Vietnamese language than most of Vietnamese native speaker including of me.
@13:10: Another very important example of borrowing a term, and giving it a totally new meaning in Vietnamese would be the term *"đại gia"* :
derived from the characters *"大家"* , it quite simply means "everybody (in the house)" in contemporary standard Chinese. But *in Vietnamese* , it is a *translation of the French concept of a "grande maison"* (or a "powerhouse", magnate, or tycoon in English) : which does not literally mean a big abode, but *someone who wields a lot of social-economic influence* in a particular community.
I just love this kind of videos. I remember the time I was studying Indo-european Compared Grammar and how much fun it was to understand the evolution of a word in the indo-european area, knowing the consonant or vowel shift , from Spain to India....Because I understand English French Italian Spanish Portugues Romanian (native language) and some, not fluently like Hindi/Urdu Sanskrit German Serbo-Croatian etc. it is so easy the understand the meaning of an indo-european word.....Now that I'm studying Japanese I can "see" the correlation with Chinese or other influnced languages much more easier, but not as easy as in the Indo-european language family. I have to learn at least Mandarin Cantonese Thai and Korean to have a better grasp on South-East Asia. Not having time to study all of them hurts me ...... I guess this kind of video is not for everyone.
wow very nice. I previously read that chu nom is very bulky and illogical, but watching this, there is actually a lot of sense to chu nom characters. please keep making videos on chu nom.
Viet Nam is very unique.
There are tremendous vocabularies that are close and related to Tay and Laos words.
You are great. Simply fantastic. I speak Mandarin, Cantonese and English fluently, and have many Vietnamese friends. You are right about the Chinese and Vietnamese languages. For those who are "offended", they just expose their ignorance. Probably a better name for "Chinese character" is "Hanzi". Using the name "Chinese character" inadvertently offend many ignorant people.
The problem with Hanzi is that each Sinosphere country has its own reading of the characters 漢字, so for the Chinese, it would be Hanzi, the Korean Hanja, the Japanese Kanji, and lastly the Vietnamese Hán tự. It's a clumsy term, especially when talking about one of these languages other than Chinese and referring to the characters as only Hanzi. The best solution would be to use the respective name when talking about a specific language, or use the neutral English term for that as Chinese character.
@@cuongpham6218 In that case, probably "Han character" is a good compromise.
You are amazing for bring up the connections . Trolls and haters they know only 1 language so we don't bother with them. As a 3rd Chinese generation born in Vietnam, I never bothered with Chinese until over 10yrs ago when I started to learn Chinese writing and I was shocked to find not only the similarities that most people brought up, but related words and sounds that no one has never mentioned.
Like the very basic Vietnamese Hello (Xin Chào) and Thank you (Cám Ơn) in Vietnamese . Foreigners learning Vietnamese and Chinese will not find the relations with these words but I was able to pick up the relations not only in meaning but in sounds.
Xin Chào (請早) the Chinese words put together are meaningless 請 (please) has the same meaning as "Xin" in Vietnamese. 早 (early) In Vietnamese it's "tảo" but the exact meaning of (tảo ) is only use in poetry, opera, history books, ancient texts . In everyday speaking "tảo" still has the same meaning but use in different situation like "tảo tần" (早頻 hard working) . tảo hôn (早婚 arranged child marriage in the old days) However the meaning is not the same, the sound of 早 in Cantonese is Chouz, very simillar to "Chào" so could it be in the ancient days, when you first met someone you greet them with "請早" (please to early meet you, know you see you ..... first hand, forefront)
or another exact sound and meaning 清早 cing zou (early morning) in Chinese, That's how Vietnamese greet someone Xin Chào ??????? My guessing, could be right, could be wrong. Obviously people don't greet each other at night back in the days when people go to bed as soon as the sun set, so early morning is the time to say hello to people you see .
Cám ơn (感恩) again Chinese don't use this form, the 2 words combine with other words to form many ways of thanks and gratitude, but they don't go together. The exact translation for 感恩 to Vietnamese should be "cảm ân" but in some odd odd ways these 2 Vietnamese also can combine with other words to form many ways of thanks and gratitude but they don't go together . In Vietnamese the same word could be said and written different ways due to the regional dialects or the royal court . If someone in the royal family has certain names, the common people cannot use them, instead they have to sound it to another form this in Vietnamese call "kỵ húy" . That's why nhân becomes nhơn, tôn- tông, hoa- hòe, hoàng- huỳnh, phúc-phước, thụ- thọ, đang- đương, thụy-thoại, hoa- huê, cảnh- kiểng, thì- thời, san- sơn, nhậm- nhiệm etc ....maybe someone in the royal courth was named "Ân" back in the days, so "ơn" came to live
Back to Cám ơn , I'm very sure it's 感恩. Cảm tạ 感謝 is use in Chinese in Vietnamese, but in Vietnamese it's very formal, usually in written text, movies, music, religions . Tạ ơn 謝恩 also formal, usually in religions for gods, or to praise soldiers, teachers, even lovers in music, poetry, Vietnanmese use this for Thanksgiving Day (Lễ Tạ Ơn) . Đa tạ 多謝 thanks you in everyday Chinese usage is also use in Vietnamese, however Vietnamese only use this music, poetry, movies, less formal than the latter, Đa tạ 多謝 can also use in speech but has to be on stage, news, or in third person, representing someone, group to thanking someone older, respectful or a group, organization, you can use it direct from person to person but it sounds weird if not comical, like they try to imitate movies, operas .
That's my take on only 2 simple Vietnamese words, there are so many more I could go on and one but that would take forever .
Another simple word
"sáng" (morning, bright) in Vietnamese the sounds is pretty much 上 (top) in Chinese .... could it be morning means when the sun reaches the top, sunrise in the early day??????????? Chào buổi sáng (good morning) in Vietnamese is this: 早班上 ??? .....班 is "ban" in Vietnamese same sound same meaning .....however like I mentioned earlier Vietnam has this system" kỵ húy" which could triggered "ban" to "buổi" similar meaning use in same and different contexts if combined with different words.
great comment
I forget one thing, I think you got it right with "bông" for flower . Northern Vietnamese call flower "hoa" same with Mandarin, they don't call "bông" in northern Vietnam . However southern Vietnamese use "bông" for flower. Trace back to history central Vietnam used to be belonged to Champa kingdom, and southern Vietnam belonged to ChanLap kingdom. The Khmer empire defeated Chanlap and took over southern Vietnam, then Vietnam defeated the Khmer and took over southern Vietnam in the 17-18th.
The Chams people from Champa kingdom were muslim, today there are still a small population of CHams people in central Vietnam and Cham's temples could be found all over the central part of the country . History had it that a king or prince from Cham kingdom migrated to Indonesia and married to a tribe or a kingdom in one of the Indonesia islands ....so there must be a connection as to why only southern Vietnamese use the term "bông" for flower.
After many waves of migrants from the north to the south, today southern Vietnamese using "bông" and "hoa" interchangeable for flower, in northern Vietnam the term "bông" is understood in most situations especially when they go together "bông-hoa"....if "bông" is used alone in northern Vietnam it's referring to cotton, anything that deals with cotton and pillow, blanket, animal stuffing .
Also fireworks in northern Vietnam is "pháo hoa" (fire flower) and southern Vietnam uses "pháo bông" (fire flower) .......cologne or perfume in northern Vietnam is "nước hoa" (water flower) whereas the south they call it "dầu thơm" (oil fragrance)
So after watching this Video I think anything Vietnamese cannot trace their root to Chinese could be searched in Indo, Malay languages
I think a lot of Vietnamese words do have Chinese origin, but the use of "kỵ húy" in your reasoning is too farfetched. The practice is a formal policy of the prestiges in antique society, so any implemented should be recorded. You try too hard to find connections between words that you fell for confirmation bias. Following your logic, the word beauty from mandarin 美 is derived from the English word May. Basically, May was such a beautiful month that the Chinese decided to adopt the word for "beaty". Of course any words in any language will be seen shared with other languages, after all all of them evolved from one.
@@nguyennguyenhuy7730 I simply brought up what I knew based on many many many many many words....... not just 5-10, or 20-30 ........The situation happened all over and the same with English, French, Spanish, German, Dutch, Russia, Poland and all of the European languages ....so are Asian languages, Thai people call Korea "Cao Lee" ...which Vietnamese used to call Korea "Cao Ly" too back 100 + years ago, but Thai people kept this and Vietnamese adopted another name "Han Quoc" ............You are the one trying hard to find the connection between Chinese and English when the 2 didn't collide until the what what century??????? and Chinese and Vietnam rubbed shoulders and sniff each other diapers from which century?????
@@anhbinbaccuc8850 I sarcastically brought up the 美 example because whenever two words from Vietnamese and Chinese sound ever slightly similar, like "tảo" and "chào", you try to make a connection between them based entirely on the soft link of "shared history", even though the words themselves share as much connection as the "美" example, which happens even without the link. It was obviously wrong, and that's the point. There exists similarity, but not everywhere and if you look too hard for connections, you will find one even though there is none, which is confirmation bias.
Furthermore, you not only brought up what you know, but you induced that the situation that you found must be true for the entire Vietnamese vocabulary. You didn't even find the Cham equivalent of "bông" but utterly dismissed the chance that Southerners came up with the word. On a side note, you also dismissed the possibility of two languages evolving from a common mother one. I will prove you wrong: find the equivalent of 3 words "thăm thẳm", "lung linh" and "nhẹ" from those other languages. Use solid argument to connect the words.
Sino-Vietnamese = Tang Dynasty Middle Chinese
Pure Vietnamese = Proto-Khmer grammar + Han Dynasty Old Chinese vocabulary
Modern Vietnamese = everything above + French loan words + English loan words + teen codes
Vietnamese grammar would be closest to Tay-Thai because they’re the longest neighbors together with huge influence from Chinese. There’s very little Mon Khmer left in Vietnamese
Nghe buồn nhưng thực tế đúng là vậy
@@julia_btfl dân tộc ta còn lại gì
Pure Vietnamese has nothing to do with Khmer. The Vietnamese language belongs to the Vietic branch of the Austroasiatic language. The Vietic branch is much bigger with more speakers than the Khmer branch.
The fact the you speak so many Asian languages is amazing. You should make a video about your language learning journey, I'd be very interested in learning about your story.
youre a real good role model in learning for learning asian languages i i notice alot of unattainable expectations and nit picking in learning asian languages
but i wouldnt say vietnamese literacy was improved because of the roman script i would say that it was improved with the roman script and i have some detests with the way its spelled similar to the frame work of pinyin it was designed to teach foreigners to learn the language without the script which just so happened to be french (in vietnam) so the transcriptions are geard toward a french pronunciation which itself was a make shift language i dont mean to intrude
Excellent! I haven't met anyone who has Mandarin, Cantonese, Vietnamese, Japanese, Korean, Thai Lao, Indonesian, Malay, Hindi, Nepali, and Tibetan in their language repertoire but it seems you will in the future.. it would be interesting to code switch and discuss the languages together.
I need to work on my nepali and Tibetan... worked on it listening to your audio book story! I can read them all though. Studied Dzongka for a while too
Facts are facts. People are always offended. Glad you're showing a light on this. Like said, languages are alive. Always merging and changing like our DNA .🎉 Hats off to you.
really amazed how you can break things down. keep up the good work!!
I'am so thankful that you are trying to make a connection between the differences and similarities from the languages. It really is refreshing to see our connection to each other. ❤💯
Vietnamese is a Sino-Tai patois spoken by Sinicized native Mon-Khmers (Muong). Hence all the relations. Being Vietnamese, learning Thai and Cantonese is super easy to me.
Bông is only used in Central-southern Vietnamese and is borrowed from Cham.
Omg I speak fluent Chinese and basic Thai and I had never understood Vietnamese lol thank you I learned a lot from this video!
Wow, what a fascinating way to learn Vietnamese vocabulary. Let's recount the steps:
1. Remember some 1000+ Hanzi characters + their sound + their meaning
2. Upon encountering a chữ Nôm character, determine if it's really chữ Nôm or just straight up Hanzi borrowed to represent Sino-Vietnamese word.
3. If it's really chữ Nôm, let's see which part is the meaning component and which part is the sound component.
4. Finally, determine the sound of such character makes, notice that sound change may occur at the onset or the rhyme or both, with each Cantonese or Mandarin onset corresponding with 2-3 different Vietnamese consonants, and the rhyme a lot more, so have fun with guessing.
5. Decide on the tone.
Yes, it would create an elaborate pathway that is "not easily forgotten" once one makes connections, but I doubt that retrieving it would be in matter of milisecs or less.
Now let's see the steps of learning via Quoc Ngu script:
1. See the character
2. Remember how each letter should be pronounced
3. Pronounce it
Oh, and the plus is that you don't even have to remember that specific word, just the rules of pronunciation, so when encountering a character that you have seen before but failed to learn how it is pronounced, you can simply "relearn" it by literally look at the character and bam. Another plus is that when encountering a brand new word, one you have never seen before, you still know how to pronounce it. So I would say that the "connection" method is not particularly useful even to Westerners who are already well-versed in Chinese and Thai and such.
"BUT WHAT ABOUT THE MEANING? ISN'T MY WHOLE POINT IS HOW THE CONNECTION BETWEEN THE MEANING OF THESE LANGUAGES WORTHWHILE TO ADAPT THIS APPROACH?"
I have bad news for you. I understand the meaning and sound of the components of 㕵, 籺, and 拠 and can't even make out what these characters mean. That first character that you pronounced was pronounced a little different by Vietnamese. You see, we would treat the "uô" as one diphthong, so /u͜o/ instead of /wo/ as whatever you did there. At first, I even thought that 㕵 is "vang" (echo). The second character is actually "hạt" and not "hột" ("hột" is Southern dialect of the same word or a Cantonese, Hokkien, Hakka??? dialect that's got borrowed to Southern Vietnamese due to trade and migration of the Southern Chinese; I don't know much about it, but it's definitely of Sinitic origin). The third character is interesting, it seems like a straight borrowing of sound and a disregard for meaning. "Cứ" doesn't actually mean "continue" but rather a particle very similar to "still" in English (compare "Ông ta cứ nói lảm nhảm" → "He is still blabbering"). In other cases, it is a discourse particle with little to no meaning at all but simply to keep the flow of an utterance and usually present in directives, allowances, which I think could be similar to "just" (compare "Anh cứ làm đi!" → "(You) Just do it!"; "Chị cứ nói thẳng!" → "(You) Just say it straight to my face!";...). Please tell me how any of these uses links back to the meaning of either the "hand" component, the "place" component", or even the whole component, which is "ground, base" as shown.
And you intentionally left out the "multiplicity" part of the chữ Nôm. So let's me reiterate with a new example from this video. The final character in the first sentence you showed "Ông ấy già lắm rồi." ← this word, "rồi", is represented by the 耒. That character happens to be used also for "rỗi" (free of work, have no work to do), "lỗi" (mistake), lồi ("convex"), "lội" (to wade through a body of water). So good luck with "connecting the dots and finding the beauty in the tapestry of the history" when encountering 耒 for the 10th time in a text, I guess.
not at all. you've created a bunch of strawmen there. luckily if you watch enough of my clips you'll realise most of your ideas are redundant. the fact is that there are billions of us on the planet who do read characters and there are logical patterns as to sound shifts and even tone shifts. This has allowed me to develop professional fluency in many languages and continue to learn more. But that's okay ... you can go and make excuses why it's bad or crazy, and in the meantime we will be hear learning. the human brain is an amazing thing that thankfully is designed to match the fuzzy logic patterns like this extremely well.
@@StuartJayRaj Oh please show how what I've said are "strawmen", I've pulled them directly from your two videos on chữ Nôm thus far.
@@StuartJayRaj You didn't even get the correct pronunciation of the first three characters that you showed, and that's telling.
It makes total sense when you understand the shifts and tone shifts / sandhi. Knowing Hanzi gives an amazing advantage in remembering words and guesstimating new vocab - and facilitating retention.
@@StuartJayRaj I wouldn't dare say anything on the remembering part (as different people have different remembering tactics that would work for them but not others), but you did terrible on the guesstimating part. Out of the 5 characters you've shown, you correctly guessed "già" (same as I did, so congrats), you mispronounced "uống" (a major
mispronunciation at that and you didn't even manage to make a guess similar to "uống" at all), so 20%. What a good "guesstimate" compared to Quoc Ngu script.
What a brilliant way to learn new languages! You've earned my respect!
10:32 for Hakka-Chinese and Xiang-Chinese, already a word stands for 來+男, it’s 倈, which also means boy, male, etc. The recording of the word can be traced back even to Yuan-dynasty (1279-1368)
I had the chance to learn similar stuff in a Han/Nom class in Hanoi, but a basic level. Great videos (this one and the previous one)!
At around 14:00 the word for grain, seed can also be "hạt". It sounds closer to the word in Thai and I think is more commonly used than "hột. Hope this help you remember.
Love your videos.❤ Keep them coming.
excellent video, shouldn't be any controversy - this is an exemplary service you're doing to all involved. I've long been interested in learning more about chu nom and these videos have definitely been satisfying. I really like the glossika course that includes them as well.
on an aside, i almost spit out my water when i heard you pronounce 'arsenal' XDD
In Teochew, language in Chaozhou, Guangdong province, the word 'eye' is pronounced [mak], which might be the link to the the 'mat' in Vietnamese and 'mata' in Malay as well as in Indonesian?
I've always had a suspicion and now you've confirmed it for me! You're are really awesome in this thing of yours👍 I think your critics are seeing through extreme-nationalism/ racism/politically-brainwashed narrow-colored lense.
Keep up the good work. I enjoyed it alot
Hi Stuart! So nice to have found u. I'm also a Chinese, Thai, Indonesian speaker. Learning vietnamese now.
Thanks for sharing the way you learn. Highly relevant:) i think vietnamese is going to be super easy for me :)
I feel pity about Han-Tu(Hanzi), instead of making a scripts or alphabet based on Han-Tu, we using the latin scripts instead, i mean look at the bright side, Quoc-ngu(Latin scripts) helps Vietnamese to memorize and learn faster, but the negative are not less, since the symbol words switched to sound words, many meaning got misunderstood or vanished from its original meaning, which confusing alots.
The meaning of the word may change from time to time.
The latin scripts is not that bad, just like Korea use hangul, but Viet Nam don't teach Han Viet (sino-Vietnamese) for the student in school, and this is the thing make Vietnamese confuse.
@@vuluongtrieu2609 .
Everyone form structure of language have its unique value, expression, ect.
Latin Alphabet letters structure Vietnamese is used Roman Alphabet letters A B C , stress tones sign to form the spoken language of Kinh people in Writing by Western Sino-Schoolar Ministers - 西方傳教士漢學家 (Các Nhà Truyền Giáo Phương Tây Nhà Hán Học) is called Chữ Quốc Ngữ, nơwadays Vietnamese, Tiếng Việt.
Tiếng Việt is with 80% of Sino - Vietnamese (Tiếng Hán Việt) that is based on Chữ Nho = 儒字 = Ru Zi, or Chữ Hán = 漢字 = Han Zi, Chữ Nôm = 喃字 = Nom or Han - Nom Chinese characters Writing Script, due to Chữ Nôm = 喃字 = Hán Nom is very complex and is difficult to learn and Chữ Nho Ru Zi or Chữ Hán Han Zi is popular to use and Tiếng Việt, Latin Alphabet letters structure Vietnamese is with 80% of Sino - (Vietnamese Tiếng Hán Việt).
Each form structure of language have its unique value, expression function, etc and it cannot replace by the others form structure of language due to its unique value, ect.
Such as the word :Thanh in Chữ Nho or Chữ Hán is 聲 = Sound (âm thanh), Thanh in Chữ Nho or Chữ Hán is 清 = Clear or clean (thanh khiết, thanh minh)
And also in Kạni, Hiragana, Katakana form structure of language have its unique value, ect and it cannot replace each other.
Korean is invented the Squared shape Alphabet letters structure and vowels and Han Zi is still place a important role in their country due to each form structure of language have its unique value, ect and most Korean ancestor's Writing Material is written in Chinese characters Writing Script.
Its not really THAT confusing to us vietnamese tbh 👈 yeah its true that the meaning arent really the same anymore but we have SO MANY complex words to make up for it
I'm not a Vietnamese but oddly enough as someone who speaks Mandarin and reads Chinese, I can relate to your statement. Because the Chinese characters always symbolize or may I say foreshadow what a particular word means. Even though if you don't know or forget how a character sounds, you will still have a good chance at guessing what it's about by analyzing the strokes. This is something that the alphabet-based writing system can't do. The 'story' of each Vietnamese word is lost.
A philosophers once say " It not nation we habit but about language ,make no mistake because our national tongue is true fatherland "
Insane how Sanskrit influenced them all.
As a Chinese, I think this is very interesting. I may start to learn Vietnamese after I learned French.
Those Chinese who said Chinese characters should be only used in Chinese are narrow-minded. We should appreciate that other cultures were learning from our culture and we should learn from them too. And indeed we did, modern Chinese borrowed so many words from Japanese. If the narrow-minded Chinese want to get rid of those words, they will not be able to speak. So for those narrow-minded Chinese, I just want to say 文化越开放包容，影响力越大，敝帚自珍只能堕落成井底之蛙。
讚
借用词在一个正常范围内说明是一个活语言，完完全全的固化语言才是可怕的。但是我不理解你所说的中文从日本中借用了大量的词汇。具体是是多少呢，据我了解双字词中现代汉语中日语借词为4%，这个数据应该来说不算太大吧。
@@张熙坤 政治、经济、社会和科学，这四个词都是来自日语的，而且汉语中这四个学科中的很多词，都是来自日语的，这些词是中国现代化（现代化这个词也是日语借词）过程中直接从日语中拿来用的，因为这些很多是日本人用汉字翻译的西方概念。我是赞成文化开放和包容的啊，由于日本人用的是汉字词，所以我们理解这些词完全无压力，也就不容易发现很多词的“外来语”属性了，不管比例是多少（我并不知道比例），因为这些词都是跟用现代生活息息相关的，所以离开这些词，中国人是没法正常交流的。？比如“政府、人民、共产党”，这些都是日语借词。
@@张熙坤 我是赞成文化开放的，并没有说借词有什么不好啊，我是在讥讽那些心胸狭窄的中国人。他们离开和制汉字词连话都无法说。就是为了表明汉语和汉字应该包容开放，说汉语的中国人更应如此。
People should know that China has a rebellious province-Taiwan. The Taiwan government has raised a large group of cyber soldiers, and outsiders call them "1450". These "1450" cyber troops have long pretended to be mainland Chinese and made some insults to the people of other countries. Of course, if they post in Chinese, they post in simplified characters.
You upload good contents always
I learned a lot
Thank you so much for sharing
Vietnamese language right now base on 2 system combine. Sino- vietnamese ( Han-viet) 60 % and Vietnamese ( chu nom) 40 % our ancest spend 3 century to invented the word drink in vietnamese meaning ( uong) we use two character chinese to build the [mouth+king] in sino-vietnamese are called [ khau+Vuong] or [ mieng+vua]
As a Chinese, Chu Nom is a WAY better tool to learn Vietnamese than romanised Quoc Ngu LOL. Most modern Vietnamese may not care for such an important historical script FROM THEIR OWN own culture due to sheer ignorance & political "feelings", but Chu Nom definitely helps Chinese & Japanese memorise Vietnamese vocabulary words SO MUCH MORE EASIER. Thank you for these lessons!
we did not ignore them, we was forced to do it .im not far right or ultra nationalist but current latin helped Viet to be good at learning western language , but being isolated in sinophere partly.
We don't ignore it though, and I promise it's not because of politics. It's just that after WW2, almost everyone in the country did not have any education. So we chose the Latin script which is an easier writing system, to spread education among people as fast as possible.
There were attempts to officialise the Chữ Nôm again, but was taken down due to the complexity of it.
Chu Nom is just for fun or history research! It's very awkward and inefficient for modern technology or academic contexts if we continue to use Chu Nom. For anyone who wants to learn some history and original meaning of Vietnamese word, it's useful but so wasting time and then got nothing than some knowledge about history. So as Vietnamese, we are very proud and grateful to the French for bringing Chu Quoc Ngu. And it's a pity that Vietnamese people can't use Romanized Chu Quoc Ngu a bit earlier before the French came.
I see parallels with Koreans adopting Hangul instead of Hanja to communicate
Start Jay Raj is such a great Hyperpolyglot, as well as an inspiring master.
Hi. I'm Vietnamese. Nice to meet you ❤
我是越南人，我学过英语。我现在学中文，也许以后我会努力学泰语啊。
好棒！
學語言，啟文明
For those Vietnamese who say NOT using Chinese characters led to the increase in literacy rate is an insult to ourselves. China and Japan continued to use Chinese characters and achieved over 95% literacy rate. And you people are saying Vietnamese can't achieve that with using Sino-script? Please think before you even say anything regarding this great modification of Chinese characters to fit Vietnamese language. The Quoc Ngu is another invention of the Portuguese and then the French. It's not 100% Vietnamese. However, Chu Nom IS purely a Vietnamese way of describing the language WITHOUT Chinese input.
@aliyahnguyen5195 🤣 có chắc thêm đc tí lịch sử thôi ko ???
Wow, what a coincidence finding this video! I have been learning Vietnamese for 2,5 years now (I achieved C1) and I am about to tackle learning Mandarin. I was wondering if I should try to learn Chinese through Vietnamese or if I should just do it from English which I know better. Seeing all the similarities between Vnese et Chinese though, I might learn Chinese from Vnese sources 😁 it could be easier
Or you should try both ways to start with and see which one is better !
No worries, you will be confused anyway. So doesn't matter.
Don't worry about those ignorant people. Unfortunately, ignorance and stupidity spans international borders.
Giving others the freedom to be stupid is one of the most important and hardest steps to take in spiritual progress.
Conveniently the opportunity to take that step is all around us every day.
Chữ "nó" cũng khá là hay, tại có bộ nam, bộ nữ, còn một bộ nữa trung tính không rõ ký tự, tổng hợp lại thành "it". Vielleicht es is "das" als neutrum Artikel in Deutch, a way to bypass the strict social order of man in relation to women and everything in between.
Nếu thấy hứng thú còn có thể chiết tự cả từ "mạo từ", chắc là theo nghĩa của "diện mạo" -:面貌" hoặc "面貌", , nhưng ở đây lại trở thành quan từ, hoàn toàn khác chữ luôn, "冠词" có thể hiểu theo nghĩa là quan hệ. Nhìn chung là rất khó để hiểu một cách trừu tượng, nếu không thật nghiên cứu chuyên sâu vào vấn đề này. Nếu là tay ngang thì nên cưỡi ngựa xem hoa cho vui vậy.
Có cảm giác người Việt học tiếng Việt bây giờ như học vẹt vậy, học mà không hiểu gì
cool. learning languages in a scientific way
Chinese characters are specifically for the Chinese language? How do you explain Japanese kanji or Korean Hanja, or all the Chinese-derived writing systems used by certain ethnic minorities (Bai or Zhuang, for example)?
Vietnamese grammar is 90% the same at Mandarin. I had a phase where I learnt some Vietnamese on Duolingo and within weeks was reading and having written conversations on hello talk but I couldn't speak at all. Good times lol
Wow, it's very good content. We appreciate your effort. To me, as a person who can use both English and Mandarin, Chu Quoc Ngu is a great gift and the most contribution from the French to the Vietnamese under their colonization. But this video is interesting too. Maybe for some Vietnamese who knew many Chinese characters, it's very curious and interesting to learn some of our own old scripts like this way。
但是喃字在现代学术的背景使用很尴尬。如果我们继续使用喃字，要努力把喃字简单化起来，真不容易的！
The Quốc Ngữ script was invented by a Portuguese missionary with the help of local Vietnamese, the French merely implemented its use in schools and abolished the used of Chinese. Despite that the literacy rate during colonial era was extremely low. In fact, only when the Viet Minh took control over the North was the script officially taught widely in favor of traditional Chinese and Nom script to boost national literacy rate. For that the French couldn't really take credit, so no, it's not a gift or contribution from the French, like at all.
@@cuongpham6218 I understand your point. I’m not a Pro-French or Pro-Chinese person either. But I really thought that without French colonization, we could have used Chu Nom forever. Even the colony policy only exploit Viet recourses and benefit the French, at least their colonization did help to abolish Han-Nom scripts dramatically. I think it’s still a good luck for Vietnamese people to use Chu Quoc Ngu like it is today.
@@DienLeChannel Nah I don't think it's a blessing at all. Chu Quoc Ngu, as convenient as it is, doesn't represent our culture well. In fact, being ignorance of Han-Nom cut a large portion of modern Vietnamese from their ancestral culture, resulting in hilarious situations like people in Hanoi worshipping a stone tablet with literal inscription of "get off the horse" in Văn Miếu, just because it has Chinese characters on it. People can't read ancient texts of their own ancestors anymore, and get a very superficial understanding of their own traditions. You can argue that Han-Nom is very complex and doesn't help improve literacy as well as Chu Quoc Ngu. Fine, that's a good point, but it all depends on the policy. Just look at Taiwan, they are still using traditional characters no less, or Japan, where they have to learn at least 3 kinds of scripts including Kanji. Despite those the literacy rate there is almost 100%.
P/S: Another point, we don't have to abolish Chu Quoc Ngu and install back Chu Nom, we could do it like the South Koreans do. Make Han-Nom optional in school. That way students can have a basic understanding of the script and how they can build new words from the Han-Nom components correctly, not from wild guessing like it is now.
@@cuongpham6218 I agree and disagree with you at some points. After reaching a certain level of Mandarin and Chinese characters, I started feeling Chu Quoc Ngu is the best choice for our people. And I believe I will keep thinking having Chu Quoc Ngu is the best luck even the Vietnamese had lost a little bit much from understanding our old Han-Nom scripts. For people who want to learn more about our history or ancestral culture like you and me, we can self-learn. I really love the idea to bring Chu Nom back to early schools as an option like the Japanese or Korean are doing, which you suggested but I think the way we teach Chu Nom nowadays in the college is quite acceptable. In my opinion, having Chu Nom back to early schools even as an option is really a challenge. Yes, but if we try to do so, I guess, our Chu Nom scholars need to make some great efforts to standardize and simplify it.
Great work!
Can we get that excel sheet you're using?
口王 uong sounds like the word 饮yin3 which means drink or beverage only used for formal words the oral mandarin prefers 喝 which only have the meaning of drink (verb) but 饮 can mean beverage (noun)
I just checked from Google translation, beverage in English to Korean 음료 eumlyo this is definitely a Chinese word 饮料 yin3Liao4, it looks very similar to uong in Vietnamese
I am really confused, the Vietnamese numeral system is much more similar to the Mon, Bahnar and Aslian languages which are non-tonal.
But the tonality system and vocabularies show more similarities to Tay, like "Muong" itself is a Tay word means "Place/Land" or something.
Đó là phân loại sai bạn ạ, Việt Nam thuộc văn hóa Bách Việt ( 100 tộc Việt) Từ hán việt đa số thuộc về ngôn ngữ Bách việt.
Vietnamese is a member of the Austroasiatic language family, which Mon, Bahnar, and Aslian languages also belong to. This means that many basic terms like the numeral system are similar across these languages. However, Vietnamese lies in a rather interesting geographic location, as it is the crossroad of different language families like Austroasiatic, Austronesian, Tai-Kradai and Sino-Tibetan. Plus the fact that Vietnam was under Chinese rule for more than 1000 years. This resulted in the patchwork that is Vietnamese vocabulary, which consists of up to 60-70% of words originated in Chinese. The tonogenesis is harder to explain, but i might have had to do with geography, as many languages in the Southeast Asian sprachbund (which also includes Southern Chinese varieties) have similar tone systems.
Yes, Vietnamese is an Austroasiatic language and nothing to feel shame about it. Austroasiatic has a rich history and a dominant language family of all the Mainland SEA before the migration of Tai-Kadai and Sino-Tibetan
I dont know about the offension you got from the last clip. But I totally aggree with your method of learning new Asian language. I share the same way of formulating new words from neighbor languages. Keep moving and get rid of the "nationalism" around here! :D
By the way, the word Ấy 𧘇 is pronounced with a short /ə̆/. As you pronounced in the clip, it was /ə/ which is written "Ới" instead. And the word Cả 哿 means "big", "elder" in old Vietnamese but now rarely used as a single word.
It would be very interesting if the Viets keep using the Chu Nom script.
Amazing !
17:33 the character 哿 is actually used in Cantonese, and it’s not even rare - we have the term 娿哿 (ō goh), which is an adjective to describe someone who is troublesome or picky.
Very interesting topic tho, hoping some more similar content in the future!!
i'm Thai . * this clip made a good impression on me
You are amazing.
I am Vietnamese, I have a headache when learning Vietnamese in my own language! Especially grammatical structure and Sino-Vietnamese words!
Were there really some Chinese trolls who would voice unhappiness that a foreign tribe would be using a variant of Chinese language? I highly doubt that. Usually a person feel pride that his culture is being adopted by foreign tribes. I as a Chinese would feel glad to see more of the world take effort to learn and know Chinese, same as Vietnamese would feel proud if more people learn and use Vietnamese. So I suspect the negativity comes primarily from Vietnamese nationalists who want to exaggerate their tribal uniqueness.
sadly the nationalism went both ways and I was attacked from people on both sides of the nationalist divide.
@@StuartJayRaj keep it up, you done nothing wrong
Hi bro ， 你知道我在哪裡可以找到很多chunom 的phrases或者句子或者書 我想學越南語用chunom
if people were taking offense, then GOOD GRIEF they really need a hobby
There are many, many more Chinese family of scripts and scripts inspired by Chinese characters, such as Tangut and Jurchen characters. Wish you could cover them in the future!
Zhuang also used to have its own Chinese character based script similar to Chu Nom in Vietnamese.
But their language has disappeared. How can it be recover?
unnecessary hate you got there! keep up the good work
Sinitic influences runs deep through the ages in East Asia
Love this long time
陈
Chen is mandarin 华语
Chan is Cantonese 广东话
Chin is Hakka 客家话
Tan is Hokkien 福建话, MinNan 闽南语 (Taiwanese Hokkien)
Tang is TeoChew 潮州话
Ting is Hokchew 福州话 (FuZhou)
Etc...
And also a common Vietnamese surname as well, which is read as Trần
@@cuongpham6218 Tran? Vietnamese got surname 陈 as well
@@tangtony1536 Yes, almost all of Vietnamese surnames have Chinese roots, just like Korean surnames. The most common Vietnamese name, Nguyen for example, is the Sino-Vietnamese reading of this character: 阮.
@@cuongpham6218 Nguyen seems like people in 金国 JIN Dynasty in the ancient time
@@tangtony1536 No, the surname Nguyen has nothing to do with the Jin Dynasty. There is a noble Nguyen House in the history of Vietnam, and the reason why so many Vietnamese bear this surname has to do with its tumultuous history where many people were forced to change their name to avoid persecution.
If I ever get time, I'd like to go back into programming and develop a tool to allow clipboard text, whole files, or web pages to be converted into chu nom.
Please make video about Tangut / Xi Xia language! ;)
Malay using sancrit at first so they might have some similarity.
Mongolian, and some northern part of Russian also have some mixture with ancient Han though
Like 女真族
You have a curious accent. Where are you from?
Where can i get access to the nom script generator?
The Nom script generator is just a Google sheet where I've imported the chunom CSV list from chunom.org and then just designed my own UI in the spreadsheet cells and pull characters in at random from one sheet to the other. We did it together in Mindkraft. I might do a clip in the future to do a walkthrough of it.
Vietnamese script was created by Portuguese missionaries, French merely took credit for it because they disseminated it more widely/they were the colonial power.
Otherwise great vid!
people nowadays are literally offended by everything...
no language is an island 👍🏻
Vietnamese nationalism wants to exaggerate uniqueness and not wanting to lose identity to China and Chinese, those are the reasons for the push back against connections with Chinese as much as possible, unless or until a romantic relationship should be formed with a Chinese individual.
Geez, we human after all, i speak human language and so do you
I'm Chinese, don't take those comment of ccp internet army for serious. if you traveling china you will find out Chinese people love to see other people speak any type of chinese,
20:40 is not exactly like เอ๋ย in Thai.
Vocative marking particle is o'i and not ay.
In Thai, this sentence is like saying ตาคนนั้น แก่มาก
了 是多音多意字
同一个字。可以不同的发音不同的意思
了 可以念 Le, Liao
乐 可以念 Le, Yue
those vietnamese and chinese who are just in denial really need to sit down and take a look back in the history of the 2. So their's logic is chinese is chinese and it shouldn't be in any of others language . Ok and look back at history the Chinese ruled Vietnam for 1000 year so all those year chinese script are well teach through out many many generation of the Vietnamese therefore that's why Vietnam has it.
And same goes for delusional Vietnamese saying those script are belong to their own people ? well they need to also sit down and read some history do some research too ! . Anyyway thank you for doing this kind of Video to educate us .
Every Vietnamese who's saying they're proud of Chữ Quốc Ngữ because it is original to Vietnamese doesn't realize that Chữ Quốc Ngữ came from the West, which is even less original than Chữ Nôm.
O____o
To me, as a person who can use both English and Mandarin, Chu Quoc Ngu is a great gift and the most contribution from the French to the Vietnamese under their colonization. But this video is interesting too. Maybe for some Vietnamese who knew many Chinese characters, it's very curious and interesting to learn some of our own old scripts like this way. Yes, I am really proud to have Chu Quoc Ngu using nowadays but not the reason it's from the West.
@@DienLeChannel As a Hong Konger, I prefer Chu quoc ngu rather than nom characters even though I am able to recognise both Nom and Han characters. If I learn Vietnamese with Han or nom characters, I won't be able to learn the pronunciation properly.
Bạn đang bị nhầm lẫn giữa " tiếng"& " chữ"???
Người Việt Nam tự hào vì gìn giữ được tiếng nói nhé,chữ quốc ngữ để ghi âm tiếng nói nên nó giữ được ngôn ngữ.chữ quốc ngữ do người phương tây mang đến là đúng & người Việt Nam đã biết vận dụng nó cho mình.Nhật Bản & Hàn Quốc có muốn cũng không thể làm được do đã bị Hán hoá quá nặng.
The Vietnamese young people have no idea about their ancestors. They don’t accepted what is the true stories about their pass. . They even give up their ancestors written language and adopted the French culture and Latin way of writing. Therefore not much Vietnam can read what was their ancestors wrote books about their pass
Keep working on your Vietnamese pronunciation. Vietnamese vowels and constant sounds are not the same as mandarin or thai.
This is very interesting, but your audience must be very restricted. You would have to at least be able to read Chinese to understand all this. I have worked as a Chinese and Japanese translator and also speak pretty good Thai and Cantonese. I get along somewhat in Korean, Hindi and Vietnamese, but have always wondered why the old Vietnamese characters looked so weird. Now I know.
No language is an island
The uncontacted North Sentinelese people in a literal island: Pfft.
Interesting, Vietnam is like the melting pot of East Asia and South East Asia cultures. It reflects in its language and cuisine.
austroasiatic language family
Yes we are, stop being racist pls
I see you everywhere hating on us, what your problem ?, did you get beat up by some Vietnamese ?
@@vunhut824 I just state the truth
@@hagongda123 no i see you on every channel, you racist on Vietnamese
You're just opening old wounds. It's complicated
Interesting how some people see this as opening up ancient knowledge that bridges cultures. It's complicated.
80% of modern Vietnamese vocabulary is from Chinese lol. The Chinese Empire played the same role in East Asia as the Roman Empire played in Europe...Vietnam was founded by Zhao Tuo, a Chinese general and was a tributary state of China until the French colonized them.
Really what i told you those language form china very diferent from Nôm language form Vietnam .You seriously doesn't understand history about China and Vietnam .You talk like Vietnam need China is bullshit
60% not 80%. Zhao Tuo did not found Vietnam, Vietnam already been exist for 2500 years before Zhao Tuo came and conquered it.
It is impossible that 80% of modern Vietnamese vocabulary are from China. Actually there are just 30-40% words from China in daily conversation.
@@yypsdennis actually the 40 % you are talking about is the official sino Vietnamese vocabulary but there’s an additional 30 % that was borrowed from old Chinese and is considered as native Vietnamese but when you study mon Khmer languages and old Chinese there’s no possibility these words come from mon Khmer languages. So the real amount of sino-Vietnamese is around 70%
@@alant367 It depends on the definition of Chinese. Actually, many so called loan words are from Teochew or Cantonese dialect which couldn't be understand by most of Mandarin speakers. Moreover, some of so called Sino-Vietnamese words just borrowed the pronunciation and changed the original meaning later on.
Just ignore the dummies ha ha
people who taking offences easily are very annoying to watch to be honest, very low emotion intelligence and yet they are proud, much stupidity I don't wanna say more
this flawed argument about education level increase due to French is just asinine. Take a look at China's current % of educated people vs in the Ching era. How about the Taiwanese and Japanese? Ditching the Chinese character has nothing to do with increased education levels. Interesting how Stuart uses language to push his propaganda. Amazing gymnastic I have to admit.
did you listen to what I said? Seems we agree
Don't want to sound rude, but... so what? Yes, similarities and influences between languages are frequent. What's the big fuss about?
having those links has sped up the ability to acquire language structures and vocab - it's a gift to any language learner who already has a background in a sinitic , tai, Austronesian or mon Khmer language. The more the merrier
Guess you only speak one language & doesn't know what's the big fuss about linguistics. LOL.
Ông này tra chữ Nôm làm gì mệt nhọc vậy. Còn ai xài nữa đâu.
Uầy, coi chừng bị nói là "người Việt Nam nhạy cảm, đưa chuyện chính trị vào ngôn ngữ" các thứ đấy.
ổng biết sẵn tiếng trung rồi nên ổng dùng chữ nôm để học từ vựng tiếng việt nhanh hơn thôi
@@khoalengoc1372 liên quan gì, tiếng Trung biết khi học ngữ Văn cho mượt một cách Hàn Lâm chứ học giao lưu tà tà biết tiếng Trung có khi dễ gây rối nữa.
@@khoalengoc1372 sẽ có thái độ ỷ lại, tao biết tiếng Trung rồi, học tiếng Việt dễ ẹc.
Tôi là người Hồng Kông, tôi thích chữ quốc ngữ nhiều hơn chữ Hán và chữ nôm, nhất là chữ Hán mad ko thể thể hiện ngôn ngữ sử dụng của tiếng Việt hoàn toàn