@@Kira22558 the idea of Gilhren a facist who started the one year war, used nukes and poison gas to massacre colonies, and came up with the idea to launch colonies at the earth wiping out half of humanity in within a week of the war being a pro lifer is actually a hilarious concept
@@Darksaviour American political polarization was always a culture shock, their pro-life people are generally pro-gun, support death penalty and until recently, were war hawks. Literally pro-death in every case that's not a fetus... but then I've seen the other side putting Soviet and LGBT flags together, ignoring homosexuality being criminalized in USSR. Here where I live, most liberals are right wing and communists are the most conservative people who want to imprison gays and the capital punishment back like it was during socialism. I wonder what politics in Japan like? Do they follow US or European model of values that for some reason always come together?
@@KasumiRINA You said it. American politics in general need to burn in hell. I’m Canadian and up here a lot of that mentality you mentioned has spilled and when I see it I just say “FUCK ALL OF YOU” it creates a deadlock and nothing gets achieved as well as the hypocrisy. Now for Japanese politics. Post World War II a lot of Japan tried to steer away from how they where. They demilitarized except for their peace keeping force which was a military outfit in everything but name. This lead to a big American grasp on the country. Now a days I can’t explain it well however watch LetaskShogo he has a video on why it’s not fun to live in Japan that highlights some of the politics especially when it comes to the older generation.
I like how Gihren says democracy leads to infighting then proceeds to kill his father and get killed by his sister. A nice little bit of ironic story telling there
Democracy is fragile and leads to infights but fascism and militarism is too aggressive and could leads to lot of backstabbing and betrayals and instability.
@@okamijubei facsim has no upsides. The most successful fascist state essentially only stayed afloat on a constant war economy and through financial fraud
@@suchiuomizu obviously, the universal century storyline of Gundam is for me the best ,mecha anime... but The Slayers is the best middle-age fantasy anime ever, because Berserk is Dark fantasy.
That last line, "Boy, you could not have missed the point any more if you fired in completely the wrong direction, and the target was in a different country altogether."
I love, I LOVE that his point wasn't "don't be Hitler because Hitler was evil", it was "don't be Hitler because Hitler lost". Zeon might be stylish but goddamn they're messed up.
@@loadeddice4696 Well at this point they had already done Operation British so they had gone way ahead of Hitler in the Evil Genocide department. Now it was the "Winners decide the history" part of the War so they had to win or at least not lose.
EDIT: Correction, the paper is Girhen's plan not a treaty...But Girhen was going to act on it even if he didn't sign off on it as Degwin was a figurehead at this point. Degwin went out later to try and go for a treaty as he realized that what he created only led to more suffering.
"We will finally figure out a way to deal with overpopulation" "Gihren this war has taken out over one third of the human population in the Earth Sphere. I don't think thats as serious a problem anymore."
"dont worry papa, we can deal with overpopulation now" "gihren, half of all of humanity is dead." -gihren laying the ground work for ten billion different neo zeons and their own insane colony drop plans- "dont worry papa, i will fix overpopulation,"
No. He raised a genius. The father grew up to be a coward. Hitler wanted to make peace with Britain only to cuck himself by warmongering Churchill and his disgusting ilk. Read redpilling books before spouting your NPC drivel.
@@tactknightgaming2066 Okay Gihren, make sure to let Kycilia get on board your ship with no restrictions to her personal firearms too while you’re at it. Dumbass.
@@NihilisticIdealist As far as I care, they're just like american revolutionaries with a Nazi fashion sense. Nothing they do (at least in the anime I've seen is really that Nazi-like)
At the end of this clip, Degwin has a different line in the movie version, one that I actually like better: "Hitler's own followers ended up trying to kill him!"
@Nobody comments are not funny you troglodyte for real. I think the movie version is great, but I honestly feel like they should make an extended version of the movies that gives us, well, any context for every character in the series lmao.
I started with the movies, but now that I've hit most of the main UC stuff, I'm looking back to the original anime. I see why they cut a lot of stuff, but all the character moments in the series are really the best part.
@@AwkwardKyle The movies are good if you want the highlights so you can watch the recent stuff like Hathaway's Flash. If you want in depth, take time and watch it all.
I guess they get props by side-stepping all the barely disguised analogues that sci-fi villains are made of and just said 'yeah we're basically space nazis'
@S K In the latter part, you and I disagree. There is no single system that will ever have all the answers. Just as the empires of old fell, just as fascism and communism fell, so will democracy and so will whatever will come afterwards. The world will always keep changing, hence why a conservative outlook, always looking at and emulating the past rather than daring to build something new, will only slow humanity down in the long run. Those who dictate what is and isn't acceptable to society, be it religion, morality or something else, generally abhor change. Partially because it necessarily means their loss of power, which is contrary to their own interests, and partially because it upsets the status quo and like a pebble dropped into a pond, the ripples become greater over time, replacing stability with uncertainty. Humans dislike uncertainty and tend to revert to their more base nature when faced by it, creating the nooks and crannies where radical ideologies thrive and get their claws into the minds of the fearful sheep looking for stability. This is why people so readily throw their votes behind demagogues the instant they are threatened with their cozy and secure little lives being taken away by someone else, responding to uncertainty by reflexively lashing out at the world around them, which in turn creates more uncertainty in other people who lash out as well, creating an unstable equilibrium of conflict and strife.
@S K That's giving Fascism lip service though. If I recall, the League of Nations and US tried and failed to defeat the Soviet Union after WWI in what was called the Russian civil war (1919-1934), when member states sent 150,000 combat troops to back up the 2 million disorganized Czarist Royalists against the 1 million well-organized Bolshevik troops. 10 years after being ejected from and defeated by the Bolsheviks in 1924, the League and the US recognized the Soviet Union as a country and thus why they tried not to mess with them afterwards. Also, I wouldn't say human beings are "tribal" by nature, because that has negative connotations when describing indigenous people as "tribal", especially from an orientalist presupposition. It's more like, we only have had wars from the days of our nomadic ancestors when there was a lack of abundance of food. This is according to Douglas Fry who showed that human beings aren't war-like at all. Warfare is a by-product of statecraft, and thus Gundam is in fact, anti-establishment as it is anti-war or anti-imperialist and anti-capitalist and anti-fascist. And to elaborate your point on fascism, the goals of fascism are indeed the self-preservation and revitalization of its society through war, but it also aims to make war its culture. Not to mention that it aims to make a culture as hyper-masculine as possible and for the purity of race and/or culture in the philosophical and/or biological sense. Likewise, since it's also designed to be authoritarian there is no way it can be sustainable, as fascism has no true economic theory as it takes whatever economic system that will fund warfare. Otherwise, Girhen Zabi appears to have no other plans for Zeon after he wins, unless he intends to make side 6 his new enemy. Lastly, Liberal democrats tend to be an indecisive bullies who only care to make war when one upsets their ability to make profit. After WWI, France and Britain intended to make Germany suffer by making them pay back a $33 billion debt, even though the latter paid them back in land succession. In WWII, the reason the French and the British wanted to defend Poland, Norway and Denmark is not because they actually care about the welfare of the peoples of those countries, but because they had the ability to produce oil. Hence part of the reason why they let Germany grab Austria and Czechoslovakia was because they had no resources. When the time came for them to declare war on the attack on Poland, the French and Brits at the last minute had second thoughts because after attacking the Saarland, due to the nightmare of having to occupy and rebuild Germany. I don't think this point could be expressed more in Gundam with Federation threatening Zeon with war at first, but backing down afterwards. This is especially when the Federation can't decide whether to strike Zeon first but risk destroying the colony cluster and having to rebuild it, or wait to be attacked and have to rebuild the clusters with troops stationed in them.
@S K 1) I never referred to Czarist Russia as fascist. But then again, if you look back to Imperial Japan and Fascist Italy, they were monarchical nations who's real power was in their prime ministers Hideki Tojo and Mussolini respectively. Ergo, fascism is monarchical since there is usually one leader at the top. On the other hand, the point I was making is that Czarist Russia was backed by capitalist nations who want to keep their sphere of influence intact, as to continue to make profit. 2) SCIENCE DOES NOT PROVE THINGS! It makes predictions or hypotheses finds evidence, and corroborates both if they are consistent, or else the evidence falsifies the prediction. This leads to an auxiliary hypothesis in which a prediction must be adjusted to fit the evidence. Math and logic prove things, NOT science. Hence, that is your first mistake. Your second mistake is that, you just exposed you are indeed a bigot by calling Inuit peoples with the insult name and the same goes for referring to First Nations by another insult name as they do not come from India. Your third mistake is that, you misunderstand what he Fry was referring to in the case of 'violence'. He basically meant that there were more CRIMES committed by individual human beings to take food, mates, tools or shelter, and retribution was met by the victims' family or friends. In other words, he was describing social contract theory, a systemic pact between individuals in which both settle and agree not to steal or harm one another, in a modern context. Finally, your fourth mistake was that you resorted to evolutionary psychology, which is regarded as pseudoscience since it is predicated on biological determinism, which claims that human beings posses a trait or some traits that are essentially embedded into them biologically. There is no evidence for this, as it is a bigoted way to view humanity as a whole. Also, Fry's quote is NOT communist, but liberal. That's an argument for world peace made by Emmanuel Kant over 200 years ago in which he argued in his essay, Of Perpetual Peace. he requested that all nations abandon their militaries, conditions of past peace treaties and return conquered lands back to their nations. Not to mention that one cannot do business in another's country without permission. Kant's provisions for world peace were to create a Federation of Constitutional democracies, all nations should be representative democracies, and that all borders should be open to welcome world citizens with hospitality. This is quite similar to Zeon Deikun's plan for world peace in Gundam, as he wants to create an alliance of the sides to replace the Federation. Although, I doubt Tomino's a liberal, as in a recent interview, he indicated he's anti-capitalist. So overall, that's my two cents, and up yours you fascist piece of crap.
The irony is his son killed him shortly after this scene. The irony of it all was after Garma and Dozle died the last 3 remaining leading members of the Zabi family eventually killed each other.
@@jotaroisbestboy7593 not really. Most of Nazi leadership survived the coups, while in Zeon you have Char killing half of Zabis and rest offing each other, likes of Stauffenberg, Tresckow, Obricht, even Rommel and any other Nazi who tried to overthrow Hitler were killed. While Adolf's inner circle like Goering, Goebbels, Himmler and others only started killing themselves when Berlin was lost and they didn't want to answer in front of the tribunal. Nazi Germany only lost because First Ukrainian Front surrounded their capital with the help of Allies pushing from the West and giving lend-lease.
@@danielyoung6778Garma was the future and Dozle was the millitary. I truly think Garma would have been king of both space and Earth is Char didn't kill him.
I just saw Origins and Degwin is a weird character, he clearly disapproves of the war and the atrocities Zeon commits in his name, but despite being the "Sovereign" he just sits back and let's his kids do their war crimes.
Degwin Zabi’s role is similar to that of Emperor Hirohito in Japan during the 1930s-40s, for the fact that there could be no military operations without the approval of the Emperor.
In the first origins Degwin usurped power but in order to consilidate he put his four children in key positions. Once the second son got blown up he essentially placed Gihren as the number two of the principality and over the next 11 years slowly loses grip to his more militant son. This combined with Dozles simple-mindedness outside of military operations and Garmas manipulation by char sparking the war Degwin more or less becomes isolated from all real power outside Kycilia. As suchas a creature of a previous era of diplomatic strongarming hes out of his depth in the horrors of the war but powerless to stop it.
That's a trope in older science fiction. I've even read stories that referred to the modern era (or rather, when they were written) as the middle ages or the dark ages.
Considering that the first month of the OYW sees half the human race dead and Gihren STILL insists there's an overpopulation problem, I'd say it's instead Thanos deciding to scale back on Gihren's views.
Brilliant writing and happy to see this in Japanese because it proves that the English dub wasn't changing a whole lot mainly the points of Gihren being compared to Hitler and Degwin trying to remind his son that Hitler got defeated which is kind of an understatement actually
Seems like Gundam dubs were pretty good in terms of accuracy especially considering other early 2000s dubs. IIRC the OG series came after the G Gundam dub which did suffer excessive name changes (due to "Death Scythe Hell" apparently?) but the dialogue generally is close to the point of sometimes catching nuances you wouldn't expect and sometimes being almost too literal. IDK how Wing was before it but they clearly got good translators for these two series (and I can only assume others?)
For those who find it weird, just remember the Universal Century started around 200 years after 2021. That's almost 400 from WWII. Just like with many old leaders, It was inevitable that Hitler would be adored by some people. Just like Jenkins Han and Karlomagnus.
Crazy part is that in the movie version, Gihren boasts that the Principality of Zeon would rule over the entire universe instead of just Earth and her colonies
Note: When this show aired, Failed Austrian Painter had been dead for just 34 years. Now, it's been 43 years since Gundam, a show closer to Failed Austrian Painter than us now.
Interesting! And also nukes, Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Older Japanese takes are interesting, showing complex feelings they had between guilt for their colonization and WW2 side and victimhood over losing and getting nuked twice (when neither Germany nor russia were).
@@KasumiRINA Speaking of nukes. I remembered that I was weirded out by that one episode where they ran out of salt and how they went out of their way to get more. Then I remembered Japan's history with nuclear weaponry, and it's very obvious why the writers made such a big deal over the salt.
The moment Degwin see what his son is becoming, the moment he realizes he mess up as a father. He's also disappointed that his son didn't learn what happened to Hitler at the end. Also didn't learn that Hitler's own people tried to kill him.
@@fuckingking6796 He let power consume his children. He saw what Ghiren was becoming and tried to end the war by peace negotiation with Revil; however, Ghiren kill the both of them. His kids were long gone
@@fuckingking6796 it was after Ghiren told his father that he would follow Hitler's footsteps. That's when Degwin realize it. His kids were beyond saving. He could at least save his granddaughter.
If anybody claims that Gundam has no real evil villian, just show them this clip. Gihran is a poster boy of a villain so full of himself that he gets himself killed.
Gundam has no real villain in the traditional sense, is because Revil is a villain as well. The fact he used child soldiers, condoned and never punished his troops for ransacking civilian property, nor his officers for making baseless accusations of espionage against the refugees of side 7 without due process, used human guinea pigs to breed newtypes, placed garrisons in civilian areas as human shields against Zeon attack, and allowed his troops to harass civilians for no reason and go unpunished. Revil may come off as a cigar smoking, grandfather figure, but that is visage he uses as a smokescreen to mask his otherwise nefarious machinations.
@@CosmoShidan The federation lost half of its population in Operation British. They were strapped for manpower against a threat that effectively wanted to exterminate them, or subjugate the entire Earth Sphere under the Principality. He could either keep fighting, or let the Zabis dominate everyone. Revil also didnt breed newtypes, that was Neo Zeon with the Pulus and Scirroco. Revil also didnt make Zeon attack civilian centers. Remember, the Federation garrison in Eastern Europe was to push Zeon's frontline and drive them off world. It was a militarily sound decision. Revil also didnt know that Federation troops were being assholes. Hes not omniscient, hes Commander in Chief. It's his job to make strategies and plan macro offensives. It's the job of lesser officers and commanders to micromanage their troops and dicipline them. Also, habius corpus has been suspended multiple times in war. Even in the USA. Both World Wars, the American Civil War and the Spanish American War had these sorts of policies passed regarding treason. Im not saying Revil is a good guy, he's a very light shade of grey though. All of the questionable things he does are in response to Zeon's genocidal antics, or him having to deal with a horrible situation. Nothing he does is purely malevolent, like Girhen.
@@heraldofoblivion499 "The federation lost half of its population in Operation British. They were strapped for manpower against a threat that effectively wanted to exterminate them, or subjugate the entire Earth Sphere under the Principality. He could either keep fighting, or let the Zabis dominate everyone. Revil also didnt breed newtypes, that was Neo Zeon with the Pulus and Scirroco. Revil also didnt make Zeon attack civilian centers. Remember, the Federation garrison in Eastern Europe was to push Zeon's frontline and drive them off world. It was a militarily sound decision." One, Girhen's goal isn't the subjugation of the planet, it's the abolition of the Federation, forced relocation of the planet's populace in space, and to continue a state of war with the newly formed space nations endlessly. Keep in mind that Fascists are all about wanting constant war so they can stay in power. And Revil believes in newtypes, as he picked up the ideology of Zeon Deikun's speech while in captivity, but he misunderstands it as survival of the fittest. For instance, he gives white base an endless supply of rations, spare parts and ammo, and as their only means of support, he comes off as testing the young crew as human guinea pigs so that he can breed newtype troops to win the war. This is in the novelisation, and I tend to interpret this from not just the Tomino penned books, but judging from episodes 37-43. This is around the time that newtypes are introduced, and it's implied that not just the Zeon are breeding them, but so is the Federation. BTW, we're really not suppose to take the Federation's side, because then that defeats the anti-war message, in which war is a result of bureaucracy rather than human nature. To argue the latter is begging for totalitarianism as to infer that human beings are bastards that need state control. "Revil also didnt know that Federation troops were being assholes. Hes not omniscient, hes Commander in Chief. It's his job to make strategies and plan macro offensives. It's the job of lesser officers and commanders to micromanage their troops and dicipline them." That's no different than saying that General Gerd von Rundstedt wasn't responsible for the deaths of 20 million Soviet civilians and soldiers, as he did not know about the orders or claimed not to have known, despite his overall command of the Eastern German armies in WWII. Revil is in a position of power, and it all falls down to him since he is the SUPREME COMMANDER of the federal forces. Plus, even his officers such as Admiral Watkins committed the war crime of unlawful imprisonment, suspicion of and accusation of civilians without due process, a warrant, and evidence, unlawful suffering unto political groups, and harassment of civilians. So if Revil's own officers are committing war crimes, then he should be the one punished for not keeping them in line. "Also, habius corpus has been suspended multiple times in war. Even in the USA. Both World Wars, the American Civil War and the Spanish American War had these sorts of policies passed regarding treason." Yeah, that's one of the reasons why I think gundam is anti-government, because the powerful always get away with their wrongdoings. "Im not saying Revil is a good guy, he's a very light shade of grey though. All of the questionable things he does are in response to Zeon's genocidal antics, or him having to deal with a horrible situation. Nothing he does is purely malevolent, like Girhen." Here's another thing one has to accuse the Federation of in terms of genocide: they ultimately helped Zeon commit the acts of mass genocide by garrisoning their troops in civilian areas, which made them targets. This is yet another of their war crimes; they used their own citizenry as human shields. And they didn't seem to learn this lesson when they placed yet another garrison in side 7 and hoped Zeon would not attack the civilian centre as it was under construction. In the end, Zeon came calling.
@@heraldofoblivion499 You say the Federation lost "half its population," but something to remember is that 90% of the war's dead weren't from the Principality of Zeon *or* from Earth. They were from Federation colonies that had no representative rights in the Federation government before or in the immediate aftermath of the war. We see in Zeta Gundam just how much the Federation actually sees "space noids" as full citizens of the Federation.
@@jbark678 Yeah... no There are a few Billion people on Earth by 0078. The Sides have more overall, but they're spread thin. There are only a few million in each side, and only 4, 2 and 7 were outright destroyed. Compare this to Earth, which got a hunk of metal 10x the side of the asteroid that took out the dinosaurs shoved up it's ass. Canonically, Australia no longer exists, and the ecological damage by the colony drop would have smothered over half the planet in a month. And it's also worth noting that the Federation post OYW and Operation Stardust was much more xenophobic towards spacenoids than they were before (Most of the Sides didn't have that much of a problem with the Federation).
You almost have to feel bad for Gihren. All of his favorite historical figure's stories end in "...and then they lost. And then they died." And then Gihren lost. And then Gihren died.
Degwin: "You know. I might have done or allowed some horrible stuff. ... But that thing ((Gihren)), He makes Griffith in the Eclipse look like a protagonist in a toddler's show."
Gihren really didn't get the point on what his father told him. And Gihren should've pay more attention on what happen during Hitler's reign, his country and what happens during the war and afterwards.
@@funbro99 Thats no excuse, everyone knows what happened to Ceasar, and most people know what happened to Alexander. You would think someone who is basically space nobility would know something the equivalent of a grade schooler today would know.
@@phillipp5538 We have present people romanticizing Rome, ancient Japan, Gengis Khan, and the likes despite how horrible they were. Fuck, we already have people treating the Nazis like a good thing despite how recent it still is. It doesn't take long for humans to forget history and supplant it with their one interpretation.
I don't think he missed the point, I think Gihren was feining ignorance and took it as a complement because he admired Hitler and saw Zeon as the Third Reich reborn and perfected
I like how Zeon is probably the most well-known faction for being space nazis, not the least due to this scene and the gratuitious german names, nazi aesthetic, design, uniforms and even iron crosses. To the point where ZAFT, an organization literally made up of genetically superior übermensch, are far less nazi-esque than Zeon.
That's just a smokescreen, though. Politically, they more closely resemble Imperial Japan. In fact, in Gundam Unicorn, Full Frontal reveals his plan for Neo-Zeon to unite all space colonies under their rule in a "Side Co-Prosperity Sphere", which is a direct reference to Imperial Japan's plans to unite all of Asia under their rule and call it the "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere". en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_East_Asia_Co-Prosperity_Sphere?wprov=sfla1 Edit: another comparison between Zeon and Imperial Japan that I'd like to point out was how Zeon sought to "liberate" the other space colonies from Earth Federation rule in much the same way that Imperial Japan sought to "liberate" China, Korea, and various southeast Asian countries and Pacific islands from European colonialism.
@@NexAngelus405Both are inspirations and references the Nazis and Imperial Japan. And you know Unicorn wasn't made by Tomino , but all of his works , it's mentioned the Zaku were based on Samurai helm especially at the Zeta upgraded version
Aha, I love mocking people who complain about stuff like "they added politics to Star Wars", boi, if these sci-fi films and toons weren't political, then I'm a member of the Imperial Senate on a diplomatic mission to Alderaan...
@@KasumiRINA That's probably because you couldn't look past the warm fuzzy endorphins of being pandered to to realize that there's a difference between skillfully done allegory and simply hamhandedly shoving The Message into the audience's face without bothering to make an effort at writing a good story along with it. Nobody would have complained about the political parts of the Prequel Trilogy or the obvious baiting in the Sequel Trilogy if they were as well done as the Original Trilogy.
@@stevenschnepp576 "there's a difference between skillfully done allegory and simply hamhandedly shoving the message" You have two characters in a war drama that was written in the late 70s where one of them explicitly and verbally calls the other one of the most notorious dictators in history and not only takes the comparison favorably, but announces he takes greater pains to style himself after said villain, faults and all. And the people of said faction even use imagery strikingly identical to the faction of said dictator. And this, by the way, is the villain faction of the war drama. The clear cut bad guys. Anime doesn't do subtlety. At all. This is hamfisted, piano-droppingly loud in how it's conveying its not-at-all obvious message
Degwin: Son, I'm concerned that you are becoming Space Hitler. Gihren: Thanks Dad, now I'm determined to live up to such a glorious title! Degwin: ... Now I'm even more concerned.
The Nazi Germany figurehead I think Giren is actually most similar to is Reinhardt Heydrich, who Hitler called "the man with the Iron Heart". Just to be all armchair psychologist, Hitler was more of an NPD manbaby while Heydrich (and Giren) are more ASPD/classic psychopath.
Heh, "See how the man who follows in Hitler's footsteps can fight", well, he DID get shot in the head, so, points for that I suppose. Also, this might be the height of Gihren being a delusional weirdo. Does he actually think there's an overpopulation problem? Half of humanity is recently deceased! He's unable to understand neither the past nor the present.
Was Earth at this point that depopulated? I know they dropped one colony on Earth in this timeline (unlike Gundam X where they dropped dozens of colonies turning Earth into a decade long decay) but when you watch the anime you get the feeling that the Earth is still going strong
Degwin is depressed after the death of most of his children. He barely cares anymore, and immediately afterwards he tries to make peace with the federation.
But that's the point. Degwin isn't a _good_ guy, he's the more _pragmatic_ one. Kinda like russians fleeing mobilization or complaining mobiks get crap equipment support invading Ukraine, they just don't support dying in the process.
I mean, OP's right. Zeon did absolutely nothing wrong. Degwin Zabi killed him started a war in his name. His cult followers then continued fighting for over 18 years under a false interpretation of his ideal.
What do they call a person who only followed Hitler to "Make Germany Great Again" but didn't care for all the genocide and war stuff, or was only following orders? A nazi.
Unless you mean the dub of compilation movies, that's not the case. The dub of the show keeps this scene nearly word for word, with reference to Hitler intact.
@@accelriderx2931 I think it was the TV show version of the dub. Then again it was also aired on CN back in the day so they might have edit it even further.
@@MrRed88 I'm wondering if it was a separate edit because the version I saw was on Cartoon Network. I don't doubt everyone saying it remains in the official English dub.
Two excellent voice actors, having one of the finest moments of their carreer's together. And if you know these two you will know *EXACLY* how much praise that is.
There is no evidence to suggest that newtypes are a race. Even the notion that you have to go to space to be a newtype is false. The vast majority of humanity in Gundam could very well be newtypes, they just don't know it yet. Every single human has the potential to be a newtype.
They're in an interesting spot where one extreme is discriminating against them (Federation) and the other is making them supremacists (Zeon) or trying to invoke it artificially (Titans). That's part of what makes Gundam complex. Good example of similar duality is Magneto in X-Men, who is an actual Holocaust survivor and sees mutants being treated like Jews in WW2, his ideals are fine (so were Zeon's, at least originally before Zabis took over) it's his methods that are questionable.
@@dumbfoundedkiryu9468 I think dozle not really evil too.... No EVIL Commanders ordered his soldiers to retreat meanwhile he's gonna buying some time to make his soldiers escaping from battlefield.... Usually evil commanders let his soldiers die on BATTLEFIELD and he's running away to save his own ass 😏
“Hey son, ngl, you’re giving some Hitler vibes rn.” “Swag. I love being Hitler.” “Son, you know Hitler lost, right? Like, he lost and is now one of the most reviled men in history.”
Degwin also knows that Hitler turned on his own people when defeat became inevitable. Something I've noticed is that Degwin likely knows that while he took advantage of Daikun's death, Gihren was the one who pulled the trigger
Tbh I view Zeikun as the real villain, it was after all HIS beliefs, that kickstarted the whole she bang. It was he who caused division in the human race by wanting the colonies to split from earth, it was he who laid the dogma that earthborne and spaceborne people are different and incompatible, even though the federation allowed zeon to be independent as a show of good faith, but it still wasn't enough for Zeikun, he just had to keep making a ruckus. The zabi family have done nothing but follow through on his beliefs to their logical conclusion.
@@libertinarey But that wasn't what Deikun said. The Zabi's corrupted his message. He never said that Earthnoids and Spacenoids were incompatible, just that the colonies deserved independence and seperately that humans that adapted to space could awaken as Newtypes. His entire message was about understanding and working together. The only "edge" to his ideas was demanding independence for the colonies, which is just fair. The federation exercised complete control over all of their colonies. He wanted Munzo to be able to control its own future. He's not like Newtypism from After War, where they believed that spacenoids themselves were evolved.
"Son you're reminding me WAY too much of Hitler right now." "Based! Thank you, father, I shall commit genocide for the glory of Zeon!" "THAT'S NOT A GOOD THING."
Apparently it's Zeon propaganda or something - basically calling almost any time before the Universal Century "The Middle Ages". Or later, one assumes.
Here's the thing. The question shouldn't be who are the bad guys. Zeon was terrible the federation was just somewhat better but still awful. Think of it like this. The united states vs nazi Germany. Obviously you should root for the United States. They were the "good guys" of the fight. But that does not absolve them of the war crimes they committed or the eugenics they enacted at home, the genocides against native Americans, and exposures of minorities to deadly diseases. We can recognize the evils of both sides without devolving to "well maybe Hitler was unexceptional and we should be less judging of nazi Germany" Although maybe it would be better to compare the federation to the British empire seeing how they are a semi democratic system that still maintained colonies over people who very much were not into being colonized
@@anenemystand5582 I'd say the Federation was worse than the US easily, I don't think any member of the allied forces was anywhere near the Federation, so I don't think it's the best comparison. I'd say the conflict's more comparable to world war 1 as opposed to world war 2, even if Hitler was directly mentioned, WW1 specifically due to the fact that most sides did absolutely abhorrent shit. Though, let's not get it twisted, anyone that has a problem with the Federation but not Zeon's a fuckin' Fascist talking out of their ass.
@@Peasham I don't know man. The United States has done some fucked up shit. Instigated coups in foreign countries, bombed neutral countries during the Vietnam War. Sold weapons to Saudi Arabia used to bomb civilians in Yemen, and experiment by lacing the water of black communities with drugs and diseases to test their effects. Think up a terrible thing and the United States government has probably done it.
@@anenemystand5582You misunderstand then. There is little comparispn between both because the average US soldier had the exact same beliefs and sensibilities as the average German one. Check surveys at the time (yes they were as racist, homophobic, anti semetic etc) they just didn't have a leader who could capitalise on those sentiments.
@@HSE331 there were some massive differences. For example. Americans weren't actively fighting to execute every Jewish, disabled person, slav, or homosexual. I'd say that's a pretty big difference.
comparing Gihren to Hitler is an insult to the 20th century. Not even hitler matches the barbarism of the zabis. Half of humanity dead at Loum, the single greatest evil ever committed, but it is overshadowed by a cacophany of other evils. You basically have to go back to the Assyrian Empire to find equals to Ghiren. Ashurbanipal would probably be in the same league.
I think he just means 'hey champ, you're kinda hitlering right now' from an ideological standpoint. Which is wild, because Degwin doesn't seem to give a shit his son already murdered half of humanity, he just doesn't want him to kill half of humanity for racist reasons.
love how Degwin's response to Ghiren going "See how someone who follows in Hitler's footsteps can fight." wasnt "oh my god he's lost it!" but instead "bro he lost though..."
![5 Reasons Why Zeon Lost The One Year War [Remastered]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/eJU8_1_vmDM/mqdefault.jpg)
![5 Reasons Why Zeon Lost The One Year War [Remastered]](/img/tr.png)
Degwin: Bro you’re being Hitler
Gilhren: That’s the greatest thing you ever said to me father
Degwin: I should have pulled out…
Gihren is pro life
@@Kira22558 the idea of Gilhren a facist who started the one year war, used nukes and poison gas to massacre colonies, and came up with the idea to launch colonies at the earth wiping out half of humanity in within a week of the war being a pro lifer is actually a hilarious concept
@@Darksaviour exactly
@@Darksaviour American political polarization was always a culture shock, their pro-life people are generally pro-gun, support death penalty and until recently, were war hawks. Literally pro-death in every case that's not a fetus... but then I've seen the other side putting Soviet and LGBT flags together, ignoring homosexuality being criminalized in USSR. Here where I live, most liberals are right wing and communists are the most conservative people who want to imprison gays and the capital punishment back like it was during socialism. I wonder what politics in Japan like? Do they follow US or European model of values that for some reason always come together?
@@KasumiRINA You said it. American politics in general need to burn in hell. I’m Canadian and up here a lot of that mentality you mentioned has spilled and when I see it I just say “FUCK ALL OF YOU” it creates a deadlock and nothing gets achieved as well as the hypocrisy.
Now for Japanese politics. Post World War II a lot of Japan tried to steer away from how they where. They demilitarized except for their peace keeping force which was a military outfit in everything but name. This lead to a big American grasp on the country. Now a days I can’t explain it well however watch LetaskShogo he has a video on why it’s not fun to live in Japan that highlights some of the politics especially when it comes to the older generation.
I like how Gihren says democracy leads to infighting then proceeds to kill his father and get killed by his sister. A nice little bit of ironic story telling there
It’s all political power grab .
I love how your icon is a picture of Char laughing his ass off. 😂
Democracy is fragile and leads to infights but fascism and militarism is too aggressive and could leads to lot of backstabbing and betrayals and instability.
@@okamijubei facsim has no upsides. The most successful fascist state essentially only stayed afloat on a constant war economy and through financial fraud
Can’t believe someone’s will manifested as the *Red Rocket*
The original "Literally Hitler" moment.
Rezo The Red Priest: Let me please Introduce myself
@@stanleyronblake1646 wait they made WW2 references in Slayers? I don't remember...
@@stanleyronblake1646 You are aware Gundam is considerably older than Slayers?
@@suchiuomizu obviously, the universal century storyline of Gundam is for me the best ,mecha anime... but The Slayers is the best middle-age fantasy anime ever, because Berserk is Dark fantasy.
Gihren is worse than Hitler, Stalin and Truman combined.
That last line, "Boy, you could not have missed the point any more if you fired in completely the wrong direction, and the target was in a different country altogether."
I love, I LOVE that his point wasn't "don't be Hitler because Hitler was evil", it was "don't be Hitler because Hitler lost". Zeon might be stylish but goddamn they're messed up.
@@loadeddice4696 Well at this point they had already done Operation British so they had gone way ahead of Hitler in the Evil Genocide department. Now it was the "Winners decide the history" part of the War so they had to win or at least not lose.
@@seawind930To say nothing of missing the target.
@@loadeddice4696 You type like someone I hope to never meet in real life.
@@joeybeann The feeling is mutual, I assure you.
Allow me to translate this exchange for us middle-ages folk.
Degwin: "Son, you are literally Hitler."
Gihren: "Based."
Fin.
Goddamn right ✅
Missing the part where Degwin says "Fucking idiot."
Thanks I hate it.
Cringe modernism.
@@a-buttonace cringe comment.
You know more about Degwin when he call his own son as hitler but Gihren take it as a compliment rather than as horrifying realization.
you dont know how much he know about hitler, he just seemed to remember his name and nothin else
Yeah, thing is Gihren didn't know WHO Hitler really was. He thought he was just the leader of some Military Empire in the past.
Well, he IS a psychopath.
Eh, Degwin is still signing whatever that was and is still leaving Gihren and Kycilia in charge. He really only seems disappointed that Hitler lost.
EDIT: Correction, the paper is Girhen's plan not a treaty...But Girhen was going to act on it even if he didn't sign off on it as Degwin was a figurehead at this point. Degwin went out later to try and go for a treaty as he realized that what he created only led to more suffering.
"We will finally figure out a way to deal with overpopulation"
"Gihren this war has taken out over one third of the human population in the Earth Sphere. I don't think thats as serious a problem anymore."
One third? More like half.
@@accelriderx2931
Your probably right, I may of mistyped thinking of what he said about the laser blasting the fleet.
@@DarkArtistKaiser Yeah, probably.
Both sides lost half of their respective populations.
Its right in the opening.
"dont worry papa, we can deal with overpopulation now"
"gihren, half of all of humanity is dead."
-gihren laying the ground work for ten billion different neo zeons and their own insane colony drop plans-
"dont worry papa, i will fix overpopulation,"
Shout out to Degwin “I hate all my kids except Garma" Zabi
Garma was the only normal one. No wonder his death completely crushed Degwin.
And Dozzle
I think he liked Dozel. He was a brute but not blood thirsty.
"...I've raised an idiot."
No, you have raised an monster
No. He raised a genius. The father grew up to be a coward. Hitler wanted to make peace with Britain only to cuck himself by warmongering Churchill and his disgusting ilk. Read redpilling books before spouting your NPC drivel.
@@tactknightgaming2066 Okay Gihren, make sure to let Kycilia get on board your ship with no restrictions to her personal firearms too while you’re at it. Dumbass.
@@tactknightgaming2066 You Nazis don't deserve to live.
240 IQ stare
I can’t believe Kanye West is method acting so he can be Gihren.
The live action is in the works, 9000iq marketing?
I like how they see WWII as the "Middle Ages".
Gihren aside, Zeon in general is half Nazi Germany and half Imperial Japan.
@@amuroray88 I guess that makes them half Nazi half Bolshevik.
I would say they have much in common with Stalinist Russia too.
@@Blurns Zeron is literally Nazbol gang.
@@NihilisticIdealist As far as I care, they're just like american revolutionaries with a Nazi fashion sense. Nothing they do (at least in the anime I've seen is really that Nazi-like)
@@amuroray88 "The master race", "God's chosen people", "the superior caste", "Manifest Destiny"...all variations on a theme.
Degwin: "you are literally Hitler"
Quick question, who's the artist of your profile picture?
@@osakatales9228 kaneoya sachiko
"Thank you, father, very based."
"...I should have pulled out."
Ghiren : "Cooòol!"
At the end of this clip, Degwin has a different line in the movie version, one that I actually like better: "Hitler's own followers ended up trying to kill him!"
@Matt Horkan not every time, but 9/10 is still a great score.
That was from the movie version.
@Nobody comments are not funny you troglodyte for real. I think the movie version is great, but I honestly feel like they should make an extended version of the movies that gives us, well, any context for every character in the series lmao.
I started with the movies, but now that I've hit most of the main UC stuff, I'm looking back to the original anime. I see why they cut a lot of stuff, but all the character moments in the series are really the best part.
@@AwkwardKyle The movies are good if you want the highlights so you can watch the recent stuff like Hathaway's Flash. If you want in depth, take time and watch it all.
I guess they get props by side-stepping all the barely disguised analogues that sci-fi villains are made of and just said 'yeah we're basically space nazis'
@S K In the latter part, you and I disagree. There is no single system that will ever have all the answers. Just as the empires of old fell, just as fascism and communism fell, so will democracy and so will whatever will come afterwards. The world will always keep changing, hence why a conservative outlook, always looking at and emulating the past rather than daring to build something new, will only slow humanity down in the long run. Those who dictate what is and isn't acceptable to society, be it religion, morality or something else, generally abhor change. Partially because it necessarily means their loss of power, which is contrary to their own interests, and partially because it upsets the status quo and like a pebble dropped into a pond, the ripples become greater over time, replacing stability with uncertainty.
Humans dislike uncertainty and tend to revert to their more base nature when faced by it, creating the nooks and crannies where radical ideologies thrive and get their claws into the minds of the fearful sheep looking for stability. This is why people so readily throw their votes behind demagogues the instant they are threatened with their cozy and secure little lives being taken away by someone else, responding to uncertainty by reflexively lashing out at the world around them, which in turn creates more uncertainty in other people who lash out as well, creating an unstable equilibrium of conflict and strife.
@S K That's giving Fascism lip service though. If I recall, the League of Nations and US tried and failed to defeat the Soviet Union after WWI in what was called the Russian civil war (1919-1934), when member states sent 150,000 combat troops to back up the 2 million disorganized Czarist Royalists against the 1 million well-organized Bolshevik troops. 10 years after being ejected from and defeated by the Bolsheviks in 1924, the League and the US recognized the Soviet Union as a country and thus why they tried not to mess with them afterwards.
Also, I wouldn't say human beings are "tribal" by nature, because that has negative connotations when describing indigenous people as "tribal", especially from an orientalist presupposition. It's more like, we only have had wars from the days of our nomadic ancestors when there was a lack of abundance of food. This is according to Douglas Fry who showed that human beings aren't war-like at all. Warfare is a by-product of statecraft, and thus Gundam is in fact, anti-establishment as it is anti-war or anti-imperialist and anti-capitalist and anti-fascist.
And to elaborate your point on fascism, the goals of fascism are indeed the self-preservation and revitalization of its society through war, but it also aims to make war its culture. Not to mention that it aims to make a culture as hyper-masculine as possible and for the purity of race and/or culture in the philosophical and/or biological sense. Likewise, since it's also designed to be authoritarian there is no way it can be sustainable, as fascism has no true economic theory as it takes whatever economic system that will fund warfare. Otherwise, Girhen Zabi appears to have no other plans for Zeon after he wins, unless he intends to make side 6 his new enemy.
Lastly, Liberal democrats tend to be an indecisive bullies who only care to make war when one upsets their ability to make profit. After WWI, France and Britain intended to make Germany suffer by making them pay back a $33 billion debt, even though the latter paid them back in land succession. In WWII, the reason the French and the British wanted to defend Poland, Norway and Denmark is not because they actually care about the welfare of the peoples of those countries, but because they had the ability to produce oil. Hence part of the reason why they let Germany grab Austria and Czechoslovakia was because they had no resources. When the time came for them to declare war on the attack on Poland, the French and Brits at the last minute had second thoughts because after attacking the Saarland, due to the nightmare of having to occupy and rebuild Germany. I don't think this point could be expressed more in Gundam with Federation threatening Zeon with war at first, but backing down afterwards. This is especially when the Federation can't decide whether to strike Zeon first but risk destroying the colony cluster and having to rebuild it, or wait to be attacked and have to rebuild the clusters with troops stationed in them.
@S K
1) I never referred to Czarist Russia as fascist. But then again, if you look back to Imperial Japan and Fascist Italy, they were monarchical nations who's real power was in their prime ministers Hideki Tojo and Mussolini respectively. Ergo, fascism is monarchical since there is usually one leader at the top. On the other hand, the point I was making is that Czarist Russia was backed by capitalist nations who want to keep their sphere of influence intact, as to continue to make profit.
2) SCIENCE DOES NOT PROVE THINGS! It makes predictions or hypotheses finds evidence, and corroborates both if they are consistent, or else the evidence falsifies the prediction. This leads to an auxiliary hypothesis in which a prediction must be adjusted to fit the evidence. Math and logic prove things, NOT science. Hence, that is your first mistake. Your second mistake is that, you just exposed you are indeed a bigot by calling Inuit peoples with the insult name and the same goes for referring to First Nations by another insult name as they do not come from India. Your third mistake is that, you misunderstand what he Fry was referring to in the case of 'violence'. He basically meant that there were more CRIMES committed by individual human beings to take food, mates, tools or shelter, and retribution was met by the victims' family or friends. In other words, he was describing social contract theory, a systemic pact between individuals in which both settle and agree not to steal or harm one another, in a modern context. Finally, your fourth mistake was that you resorted to evolutionary psychology, which is regarded as pseudoscience since it is predicated on biological determinism, which claims that human beings posses a trait or some traits that are essentially embedded into them biologically. There is no evidence for this, as it is a bigoted way to view humanity as a whole.
Also, Fry's quote is NOT communist, but liberal. That's an argument for world peace made by Emmanuel Kant over 200 years ago in which he argued in his essay, Of Perpetual Peace. he requested that all nations abandon their militaries, conditions of past peace treaties and return conquered lands back to their nations. Not to mention that one cannot do business in another's country without permission. Kant's provisions for world peace were to create a Federation of Constitutional democracies, all nations should be representative democracies, and that all borders should be open to welcome world citizens with hospitality. This is quite similar to Zeon Deikun's plan for world peace in Gundam, as he wants to create an alliance of the sides to replace the Federation. Although, I doubt Tomino's a liberal, as in a recent interview, he indicated he's anti-capitalist.
So overall, that's my two cents, and up yours you fascist piece of crap.
@@CosmoShidan You're too well read and smart for this side of the Internet.
And despite openly declaring that they're space Nazis they still have fans...makes you think.
You "Hey dad I want to go to art school" Dad "Are you familiar with ADOLF HITLER?"
Dude thats such good fucking comment lol.
The irony is his son killed him shortly after this scene. The irony of it all was after Garma and Dozle died the last 3 remaining leading members of the Zabi family eventually killed each other.
It's same thing in world war 2
Garma was the heart of the family and Dozle was its strength and future without both they were just a vipers nest.
@@jotaroisbestboy7593 not really. Most of Nazi leadership survived the coups, while in Zeon you have Char killing half of Zabis and rest offing each other, likes of Stauffenberg, Tresckow, Obricht, even Rommel and any other Nazi who tried to overthrow Hitler were killed. While Adolf's inner circle like Goering, Goebbels, Himmler and others only started killing themselves when Berlin was lost and they didn't want to answer in front of the tribunal.
Nazi Germany only lost because First Ukrainian Front surrounded their capital with the help of Allies pushing from the West and giving lend-lease.
@@danielyoung6778Garma was the future and Dozle was the millitary. I truly think Garma would have been king of both space and Earth is Char didn't kill him.
"Is that Char?"
"My boy you're literally Hitler's incarnate"
"You mean the Austrian painter? BASED, thanks dad"
"I should have pulled out."-degwin.
Oh the irony, he died due to headshot in the end.
And then the person who shot him got a headshot later!
@@megajaredx9679 by not char
I just saw Origins and Degwin is a weird character, he clearly disapproves of the war and the atrocities Zeon commits in his name, but despite being the "Sovereign" he just sits back and let's his kids do their war crimes.
It's because by that point all real power has been usurped by Gihren, he's just a figurehead.
Degwin Zabi’s role is similar to that of Emperor Hirohito in Japan during the 1930s-40s, for the fact that there could be no military operations without the approval of the Emperor.
In the first origins Degwin usurped power but in order to consilidate he put his four children in key positions. Once the second son got blown up he essentially placed Gihren as the number two of the principality and over the next 11 years slowly loses grip to his more militant son. This combined with Dozles simple-mindedness outside of military operations and Garmas manipulation by char sparking the war Degwin more or less becomes isolated from all real power outside Kycilia. As suchas a creature of a previous era of diplomatic strongarming hes out of his depth in the horrors of the war but powerless to stop it.
Too old to do things himself anyway
Origins is not a prequel to this. It's a new universe and it's from the manga.
Probably should have told him that last part. XD
Degwin: Did you ever hear the tragedy of Adolf Hitler the wise?
Gihren: Hitler? The man who lived in the middle ages?
Gihren must've failed history because he repeats it hard.
Degwin doesn't even bother to correct him at all.
He knows his son's ultimate fate even if he doesn't witness it.
You know a series takes place in the far future when they call the 1900s the fucking Middle Ages
Because it's been straight 100 years after ww2 in real life
That's a trope in older science fiction.
I've even read stories that referred to the modern era (or rather, when they were written) as the middle ages or the dark ages.
@@stevenschnepp576 futureism?
I headcanon that in the Universal Century, they call everything before Sputnik and Yuri Gagarin the middle ages
"May God protect the world from my son, and I can't even imagine what Kycilia might be planning."
- Degwin Zabi
And Gihren’s VA, Banjo Ginga, voices Thanos who suggested wiping half of population to stem overpopulation.
Except this time, Thanos succeeded.
Oh man, I knew I recognized Gihren's voice somewhere. Banjo also played Souther in Hokuto No Ken. That's awesome.
Thanos did nothing wrong. SIEG THANOS! LOL!
Considering that the first month of the OYW sees half the human race dead and Gihren STILL insists there's an overpopulation problem, I'd say it's instead Thanos deciding to scale back on Gihren's views.
@@SpScarletSpider And let's not forget Liquid in _MGS_ and several others.
Also the voice of Darby The Gambler in Jojo.
“Go ahead, mistur joesturr”
Brilliant writing and happy to see this in Japanese because it proves that the English dub wasn't changing a whole lot mainly the points of Gihren being compared to Hitler and Degwin trying to remind his son that Hitler got defeated which is kind of an understatement actually
Seems like Gundam dubs were pretty good in terms of accuracy especially considering other early 2000s dubs. IIRC the OG series came after the G Gundam dub which did suffer excessive name changes (due to "Death Scythe Hell" apparently?) but the dialogue generally is close to the point of sometimes catching nuances you wouldn't expect and sometimes being almost too literal. IDK how Wing was before it but they clearly got good translators for these two series (and I can only assume others?)
For those who find it weird, just remember the Universal Century started around 200 years after 2021. That's almost 400 from WWII. Just like with many old leaders, It was inevitable that Hitler would be adored by some people. Just like Jenkins Han and Karlomagnus.
Why people should not like charlemagne?
**omangus?**
@@95onimusha
The Blood Court of Verden
@@heraldofoblivion499 it was something normal at the time
Universal century started at 2045 officially, at the time of 0079 that would be 2124, and that’s 179 years after the end of world war.
Mobile Suit Gundam: Too Many Hitlers
Crazy part is that in the movie version, Gihren boasts that the Principality of Zeon would rule over the entire universe instead of just Earth and her colonies
Yeah
Note: When this show aired, Failed Austrian Painter had been dead for just 34 years. Now, it's been 43 years since Gundam, a show closer to Failed Austrian Painter than us now.
Interesting! And also nukes, Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Older Japanese takes are interesting, showing complex feelings they had between guilt for their colonization and WW2 side and victimhood over losing and getting nuked twice (when neither Germany nor russia were).
@@KasumiRINA Keep in mind, Japan's Emperor in 1979 was the same one in WWII
@@KasumiRINA Speaking of nukes. I remembered that I was weirded out by that one episode where they ran out of salt and how they went out of their way to get more. Then I remembered Japan's history with nuclear weaponry, and it's very obvious why the writers made such a big deal over the salt.
Failed Austrian Painter.....
FAP
*My Jesus camp counselors were right!*
*_Masturbation really is equivalent to committing a Hitler a day!_*
I found the ending to this series very beautiful. The animation just went crazy the last two episodes. I wish anime stayed on this trailblazers track.
The moment Degwin see what his son is becoming, the moment he realizes he mess up as a father. He's also disappointed that his son didn't learn what happened to Hitler at the end. Also didn't learn that Hitler's own people tried to kill him.
Degwin is failure of a father
@@fuckingking6796 He let power consume his children. He saw what Ghiren was becoming and tried to end the war by peace negotiation with Revil; however, Ghiren kill the both of them.
His kids were long gone
@@AH-is5yg seriously
He doesn't realize
What his kids become at this point?
@@fuckingking6796 it was after Ghiren told his father that he would follow Hitler's footsteps. That's when Degwin realize it. His kids were beyond saving. He could at least save his granddaughter.
@@AH-is5yg yep
How ironic this becomes after Z Gundam when the Titans pretty much do something similar against the spacenoids.
I mean Bright pretty much called the Titans out on it by comparing them to Zeon.
If anybody claims that Gundam has no real evil villian, just show them this clip. Gihran is a poster boy of a villain so full of himself that he gets himself killed.
Gundam has no real villain in the traditional sense, is because Revil is a villain as well. The fact he used child soldiers, condoned and never punished his troops for ransacking civilian property, nor his officers for making baseless accusations of espionage against the refugees of side 7 without due process, used human guinea pigs to breed newtypes, placed garrisons in civilian areas as human shields against Zeon attack, and allowed his troops to harass civilians for no reason and go unpunished. Revil may come off as a cigar smoking, grandfather figure, but that is visage he uses as a smokescreen to mask his otherwise nefarious machinations.
@@CosmoShidan
The federation lost half of its population in Operation British. They were strapped for manpower against a threat that effectively wanted to exterminate them, or subjugate the entire Earth Sphere under the Principality. He could either keep fighting, or let the Zabis dominate everyone. Revil also didnt breed newtypes, that was Neo Zeon with the Pulus and Scirroco. Revil also didnt make Zeon attack civilian centers. Remember, the Federation garrison in Eastern Europe was to push Zeon's frontline and drive them off world. It was a militarily sound decision.
Revil also didnt know that Federation troops were being assholes. Hes not omniscient, hes Commander in Chief. It's his job to make strategies and plan macro offensives. It's the job of lesser officers and commanders to micromanage their troops and dicipline them.
Also, habius corpus has been suspended multiple times in war. Even in the USA. Both World Wars, the American Civil War and the Spanish American War had these sorts of policies passed regarding treason.
Im not saying Revil is a good guy, he's a very light shade of grey though. All of the questionable things he does are in response to Zeon's genocidal antics, or him having to deal with a horrible situation. Nothing he does is purely malevolent, like Girhen.
@@heraldofoblivion499 "The federation lost half of its population in Operation British. They were strapped for manpower against a threat that effectively wanted to exterminate them, or subjugate the entire Earth Sphere under the Principality. He could either keep fighting, or let the Zabis dominate everyone. Revil also didnt breed newtypes, that was Neo Zeon with the Pulus and Scirroco. Revil also didnt make Zeon attack civilian centers. Remember, the Federation garrison in Eastern Europe was to push Zeon's frontline and drive them off world. It was a militarily sound decision."
One, Girhen's goal isn't the subjugation of the planet, it's the abolition of the Federation, forced relocation of the planet's populace in space, and to continue a state of war with the newly formed space nations endlessly. Keep in mind that Fascists are all about wanting constant war so they can stay in power. And Revil believes in newtypes, as he picked up the ideology of Zeon Deikun's speech while in captivity, but he misunderstands it as survival of the fittest. For instance, he gives white base an endless supply of rations, spare parts and ammo, and as their only means of support, he comes off as testing the young crew as human guinea pigs so that he can breed newtype troops to win the war. This is in the novelisation, and I tend to interpret this from not just the Tomino penned books, but judging from episodes 37-43. This is around the time that newtypes are introduced, and it's implied that not just the Zeon are breeding them, but so is the Federation. BTW, we're really not suppose to take the Federation's side, because then that defeats the anti-war message, in which war is a result of bureaucracy rather than human nature. To argue the latter is begging for totalitarianism as to infer that human beings are bastards that need state control.
"Revil also didnt know that Federation troops were being assholes. Hes not omniscient, hes Commander in Chief. It's his job to make strategies and plan macro offensives. It's the job of lesser officers and commanders to micromanage their troops and dicipline them."
That's no different than saying that General Gerd von Rundstedt wasn't responsible for the deaths of 20 million Soviet civilians and soldiers, as he did not know about the orders or claimed not to have known, despite his overall command of the Eastern German armies in WWII. Revil is in a position of power, and it all falls down to him since he is the SUPREME COMMANDER of the federal forces. Plus, even his officers such as Admiral Watkins committed the war crime of unlawful imprisonment, suspicion of and accusation of civilians without due process, a warrant, and evidence, unlawful suffering unto political groups, and harassment of civilians. So if Revil's own officers are committing war crimes, then he should be the one punished for not keeping them in line.
"Also, habius corpus has been suspended multiple times in war. Even in the USA. Both World Wars, the American Civil War and the Spanish American War had these sorts of policies passed regarding treason."
Yeah, that's one of the reasons why I think gundam is anti-government, because the powerful always get away with their wrongdoings.
"Im not saying Revil is a good guy, he's a very light shade of grey though. All of the questionable things he does are in response to Zeon's genocidal antics, or him having to deal with a horrible situation. Nothing he does is purely malevolent, like Girhen."
Here's another thing one has to accuse the Federation of in terms of genocide: they ultimately helped Zeon commit the acts of mass genocide by garrisoning their troops in civilian areas, which made them targets. This is yet another of their war crimes; they used their own citizenry as human shields. And they didn't seem to learn this lesson when they placed yet another garrison in side 7 and hoped Zeon would not attack the civilian centre as it was under construction. In the end, Zeon came calling.
@@heraldofoblivion499 You say the Federation lost "half its population," but something to remember is that 90% of the war's dead weren't from the Principality of Zeon *or* from Earth. They were from Federation colonies that had no representative rights in the Federation government before or in the immediate aftermath of the war. We see in Zeta Gundam just how much the Federation actually sees "space noids" as full citizens of the Federation.
@@jbark678
Yeah... no
There are a few Billion people on Earth by 0078. The Sides have more overall, but they're spread thin. There are only a few million in each side, and only 4, 2 and 7 were outright destroyed.
Compare this to Earth, which got a hunk of metal 10x the side of the asteroid that took out the dinosaurs shoved up it's ass. Canonically, Australia no longer exists, and the ecological damage by the colony drop would have smothered over half the planet in a month.
And it's also worth noting that the Federation post OYW and Operation Stardust was much more xenophobic towards spacenoids than they were before (Most of the Sides didn't have that much of a problem with the Federation).
You almost have to feel bad for Gihren. All of his favorite historical figure's stories end in "...and then they lost. And then they died."
And then Gihren lost.
And then Gihren died.
Degwin called his son Hitler, and Gihren decides that's a compliment. Big oof, Gihren.
Degwin: "You know. I might have done or allowed some horrible stuff. ... But that thing ((Gihren)), He makes Griffith in the Eclipse look like a protagonist in a toddler's show."
Guts:wait this monster is your son?
Nah bro no ones topping The whit Hawk of Berserk. That guy is the epitome of vile
@@nicholas.e5158 Griffith was a devil
Griffith: "Bet."
Gihren really didn't get the point on what his father told him. And Gihren should've pay more attention on what happen during Hitler's reign, his country and what happens during the war and afterwards.
I mean the history of that era was 400+ old
@@funbro99 yeah
@@funbro99 Thats no excuse, everyone knows what happened to Ceasar, and most people know what happened to Alexander. You would think someone who is basically space nobility would know something the equivalent of a grade schooler today would know.
@@phillipp5538 we know it becuase school has made it a point to teach it.
Yet most of us likely dont even know how taxes work
@@phillipp5538 We have present people romanticizing Rome, ancient Japan, Gengis Khan, and the likes despite how horrible they were. Fuck, we already have people treating the Nazis like a good thing despite how recent it still is. It doesn't take long for humans to forget history and supplant it with their one interpretation.
Gihren missed the point harder than Zeon missed Jaburo.
Gihren probably skips history lesson.😂
I don't think he missed the point, I think Gihren was feining ignorance and took it as a complement because he admired Hitler and saw Zeon as the Third Reich reborn and perfected
Degwin:"son you literally hitler rip off"
I believe this is the last conversation they have before Gihren fires the solar ray a Degwin and Revil right? I might be mistaken
He kinda did and after that was back shot by his own sister and after that char head shot her with a bazooka
I like how Zeon is probably the most well-known faction for being space nazis, not the least due to this scene and the gratuitious german names, nazi aesthetic, design, uniforms and even iron crosses. To the point where ZAFT, an organization literally made up of genetically superior übermensch, are far less nazi-esque than Zeon.
That's just a smokescreen, though. Politically, they more closely resemble Imperial Japan. In fact, in Gundam Unicorn, Full Frontal reveals his plan for Neo-Zeon to unite all space colonies under their rule in a "Side Co-Prosperity Sphere", which is a direct reference to Imperial Japan's plans to unite all of Asia under their rule and call it the "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere".
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_East_Asia_Co-Prosperity_Sphere?wprov=sfla1
Edit: another comparison between Zeon and Imperial Japan that I'd like to point out was how Zeon sought to "liberate" the other space colonies from Earth Federation rule in much the same way that Imperial Japan sought to "liberate" China, Korea, and various southeast Asian countries and Pacific islands from European colonialism.
@@NexAngelus405 oh, hey, I knew that one.
Yay me.
@@NexAngelus405Both are inspirations and references the Nazis and Imperial Japan. And you know Unicorn wasn't made by Tomino , but all of his works , it's mentioned the Zaku were based on Samurai helm especially at the Zeta upgraded version
@@NexAngelus405 "they're not lke germanic nazis, they're east asian nazis!!"
I really like how Mr Nagai voice as Narrator and Mr. Degwin Zabi
I like to think that both Degwin and Gihren were the inspiration for Gattler from Space Warrior Baldios.
Ah yes, my favorite extremely apolitical anime that absolutely does not take sides.
Aha, I love mocking people who complain about stuff like "they added politics to Star Wars", boi, if these sci-fi films and toons weren't political, then I'm a member of the Imperial Senate on a diplomatic mission to Alderaan...
@@KasumiRINA Trueeee lmao
@@KasumiRINA That's probably because you couldn't look past the warm fuzzy endorphins of being pandered to to realize that there's a difference between skillfully done allegory and simply hamhandedly shoving The Message into the audience's face without bothering to make an effort at writing a good story along with it.
Nobody would have complained about the political parts of the Prequel Trilogy or the obvious baiting in the Sequel Trilogy if they were as well done as the Original Trilogy.
@@stevenschnepp576 "there's a difference between skillfully done allegory and simply hamhandedly shoving the message"
You have two characters in a war drama that was written in the late 70s where one of them explicitly and verbally calls the other one of the most notorious dictators in history and not only takes the comparison favorably, but announces he takes greater pains to style himself after said villain, faults and all. And the people of said faction even use imagery strikingly identical to the faction of said dictator. And this, by the way, is the villain faction of the war drama. The clear cut bad guys.
Anime doesn't do subtlety. At all. This is hamfisted, piano-droppingly loud in how it's conveying its not-at-all obvious message
Bolo's is definitely *not* political nope nope
Please ignore the captain who left his wife for a 700 ton war machine 😅
{ *KLANG KLANG KLANG* }
Degwin: Son, I'm concerned that you are becoming Space Hitler.
Gihren: Thanks Dad, now I'm determined to live up to such a glorious title!
Degwin: ... Now I'm even more concerned.
meanwhile the feds letting their gestapo took over in Zeta
It was jamtiov and bask"s plan though.
@@Kira22558Yeah they're part of the Federation.
A friend of mine saw Hitler in the bathroom and he said that he had an 8 pack.... He said that Hitler was shredded!
You look better with mostashe, my failure.
I now just want a monty python movie about Hitler in medieval Europe
Gihren: This Hitler guy sounds kinda based
Degwin:"I should have pulled out. "
The line "Buddy. YOU'RE A LOT LIKE FUCKING HITLER." Should have a bit more impact.
"Yes, I know I'm based, dad!"
"...Oh my god you are an actual dumbass."
Gihren: I'm somewhat of a Hitler myself
Honestly I think even the Austrian painter himself would be disgusted at Gihren and view him as a madman
Lmao.
The Nazi Germany figurehead I think Giren is actually most similar to is Reinhardt Heydrich, who Hitler called "the man with the Iron Heart". Just to be all armchair psychologist, Hitler was more of an NPD manbaby while Heydrich (and Giren) are more ASPD/classic psychopath.
@@domsquad4209 Wouldn't Himmler fit the bill too?
@@ninyaninjabrifsanovichthes45 himmler was a LARPing chincel, I think Giren was more of dictator Akio Ohtori
Heh, "See how the man who follows in Hitler's footsteps can fight", well, he DID get shot in the head, so, points for that I suppose. Also, this might be the height of Gihren being a delusional weirdo. Does he actually think there's an overpopulation problem? Half of humanity is recently deceased! He's unable to understand neither the past nor the present.
Gihren was already bat-shit insane by this point
Was Earth at this point that depopulated? I know they dropped one colony on Earth in this timeline (unlike Gundam X where they dropped dozens of colonies turning Earth into a decade long decay) but when you watch the anime you get the feeling that the Earth is still going strong
Yeah..@@Athrun82
Adorofu Hittoro
Eh, Degwin is still signing whatever that was and is still leaving Gihren and Kycilia in charge. He really only seems disappointed that Hitler lost.
I mean, Degwin's signature could've also been faked by Gihren if he didn't, so what was the point of resistance at that point?
he's just a puppet leader at that point and he knows
Degwin is depressed after the death of most of his children. He barely cares anymore, and immediately afterwards he tries to make peace with the federation.
But that's the point. Degwin isn't a _good_ guy, he's the more _pragmatic_ one. Kinda like russians fleeing mobilization or complaining mobiks get crap equipment support invading Ukraine, they just don't support dying in the process.
“ZEON DID NOTHING WRONG!!”
The Federation should've known their place.
The Federation: "See! they forced us to send children into battle!"
I was a Zeon sympathizer until Operation British. Sacrificing that many civilian lives goes against everything that is LOAC and proportionality
Federation = Space Communism
Zeon = Space National Socialism
I mean, OP's right. Zeon did absolutely nothing wrong. Degwin Zabi killed him started a war in his name. His cult followers then continued fighting for over 18 years under a false interpretation of his ideal.
Ghiren alone ruined the reputation of us Zekes.
What do they call a person who only followed Hitler to "Make Germany Great Again" but didn't care for all the genocide and war stuff, or was only following orders?
A nazi.
@@xdevantx5870 Not all members of the Wehrmacht were nazis either
@@ikagura That has nothing to do with what they're saying.
@@xdevantx5870 just like in Gundam, the feddies turned out even worse.
@@frankkennedy7618 And whose idea was that?
I remember in the Dubbed version of this they replaced "Hitler" with "Fascists". "Are you familiar with the Fascists".
Unless you mean the dub of compilation movies, that's not the case. The dub of the show keeps this scene nearly word for word, with reference to Hitler intact.
@@accelriderx2931 I think it was the TV show version of the dub. Then again it was also aired on CN back in the day so they might have edit it even further.
@@TheFreakedoutduck You can proably find the English version of this scene on UA-cam to double-check if that's the one you heard.
@@TheFreakedoutduck they say "Hitler" in the English dub of the tv show.
@@MrRed88 I'm wondering if it was a separate edit because the version I saw was on Cartoon Network. I don't doubt everyone saying it remains in the official English dub.
"Are you familiar with Adoruhishtlau?"
Two excellent voice actors, having one of the finest moments of their carreer's together.
And if you know these two you will know *EXACLY* how much praise that is.
We now return to the most f***ed up family in outer space: The Zabis!
Have you seen Skywalkers,
Newtypes are kind of a master race... or at the very least Jedi without telekinesis
There is no evidence to suggest that newtypes are a race. Even the notion that you have to go to space to be a newtype is false. The vast majority of humanity in Gundam could very well be newtypes, they just don't know it yet. Every single human has the potential to be a newtype.
@@Peasham as char said"our souls are pull down by gravity or something "
They're in an interesting spot where one extreme is discriminating against them (Federation) and the other is making them supremacists (Zeon) or trying to invoke it artificially (Titans). That's part of what makes Gundam complex. Good example of similar duality is Magneto in X-Men, who is an actual Holocaust survivor and sees mutants being treated like Jews in WW2, his ideals are fine (so were Zeon's, at least originally before Zabis took over) it's his methods that are questionable.
@@KasumiRINAyes
The irony is not all newtypes are from space, which makes Zeon's ideology idiotic.
The warmonger family
slamjamdame230487 leave Gharma alooooneee. he was the only one stated by Degwin who wasn't blood thirsty
Odin Bueno He was a little bit too naive though, poor bastard thought Char was genuinely his friend.
@@dumbfoundedkiryu9468 I think dozle not really evil too.... No EVIL Commanders ordered his soldiers to retreat meanwhile he's gonna buying some time to make his soldiers escaping from battlefield.... Usually evil commanders let his soldiers die on BATTLEFIELD and he's running away to save his own ass 😏
Yep. Pretty much like the Stalins.
@@zerox8413 Id say both Garma and Dozle are good fellas however Gihren, Kycillia and Degwin are pretty evil for many reasons
"Lived in the Middle Ages"
yeah
Your like, literally hitler Gihren
“Hey son, ngl, you’re giving some Hitler vibes rn.”
“Swag. I love being Hitler.”
“Son, you know Hitler lost, right? Like, he lost and is now one of the most reviled men in history.”
Degwin also knows that Hitler turned on his own people when defeat became inevitable.
Something I've noticed is that Degwin likely knows that while he took advantage of Daikun's death, Gihren was the one who pulled the trigger
Degwin: Son, you're Hitler!
Gihren: You honor me with those words father
"I should have made your mother swallow."
Something you forgot Degwin the first nations Hitler seized were his homelands
*_Love Live fans after seeing Wien Margarete's attitude toward School Idols and the fact she once tried to enroll in a prestigious music academy:_*
Literally Kanye
Gihren was the true antagonist lol
Which was killed by another antagonist then killed by another antagonist
@@goji-0045 who later die with OG protagonist
After watching the movie trilogy, I say the third movie handled this scene better than the show.
Japan actually followed Hitler footsteps back then. 🇯🇵🇩🇪
Gee I wonder who are the villains in Gundam
Yoshiyuki Tomino isn't known for his subtlety.
Tbh I view Zeikun as the real villain, it was after all HIS beliefs, that kickstarted the whole she bang. It was he who caused division in the human race by wanting the colonies to split from earth, it was he who laid the dogma that earthborne and spaceborne people are different and incompatible, even though the federation allowed zeon to be independent as a show of good faith, but it still wasn't enough for Zeikun, he just had to keep making a ruckus. The zabi family have done nothing but follow through on his beliefs to their logical conclusion.
@@libertinarey But that wasn't what Deikun said. The Zabi's corrupted his message. He never said that Earthnoids and Spacenoids were incompatible, just that the colonies deserved independence and seperately that humans that adapted to space could awaken as Newtypes. His entire message was about understanding and working together. The only "edge" to his ideas was demanding independence for the colonies, which is just fair. The federation exercised complete control over all of their colonies. He wanted Munzo to be able to control its own future. He's not like Newtypism from After War, where they believed that spacenoids themselves were evolved.
"BoTH sIdES!!!"
@@xdevantx5870 this but unironically
Gundam is anti-totalitarianism in general
This enraged Adolf's father, who punished him severely.
And thats why history lesson are important Mr.Gihren Zabi 😃
Didn’t expect this from the title
I can hear the laughter
Degwin Zabi is based
Unbelievably based despite being a zeon-ist 😏
@@SIGNOR-G True…
"Son you're reminding me WAY too much of Hitler right now."
"Based! Thank you, father, I shall commit genocide for the glory of Zeon!"
"THAT'S NOT A GOOD THING."
based episode
アドルフ・ヒトラー
Yes
"Lived in the Middle Ages, right?"
Zeon educational standards must be abysmal.
Apparently it's Zeon propaganda or something - basically calling almost any time before the Universal Century "The Middle Ages". Or later, one assumes.
You do understand that this is could've happened far into the future right? Where the 1940's would be far enough to be called the middle ages.
Helel Bright modern era I'm sure was many decades ago in UC lore.
Helel Bright If the 1900's were the middle ages, than what do they call the actual middle ages?
+Warren That would be around 4000AD. However, according to the creators, the Universal Century starts some time in the 20th-21st centuries.
Degwin: i am an idiot of a parent.
I didn't blame him for having such a life
"I should have pulled out."
but maybe this time itll be different. i mean 256th time lucky
And some people STILL act like it's not obvious who the bad guys are.
Here's the thing. The question shouldn't be who are the bad guys. Zeon was terrible the federation was just somewhat better but still awful.
Think of it like this. The united states vs nazi Germany. Obviously you should root for the United States. They were the "good guys" of the fight. But that does not absolve them of the war crimes they committed or the eugenics they enacted at home, the genocides against native Americans, and exposures of minorities to deadly diseases.
We can recognize the evils of both sides without devolving to "well maybe Hitler was unexceptional and we should be less judging of nazi Germany"
Although maybe it would be better to compare the federation to the British empire seeing how they are a semi democratic system that still maintained colonies over people who very much were not into being colonized
@@anenemystand5582 I'd say the Federation was worse than the US easily, I don't think any member of the allied forces was anywhere near the Federation, so I don't think it's the best comparison. I'd say the conflict's more comparable to world war 1 as opposed to world war 2, even if Hitler was directly mentioned, WW1 specifically due to the fact that most sides did absolutely abhorrent shit.
Though, let's not get it twisted, anyone that has a problem with the Federation but not Zeon's a fuckin' Fascist talking out of their ass.
@@Peasham I don't know man. The United States has done some fucked up shit. Instigated coups in foreign countries, bombed neutral countries during the Vietnam War. Sold weapons to Saudi Arabia used to bomb civilians in Yemen, and experiment by lacing the water of black communities with drugs and diseases to test their effects. Think up a terrible thing and the United States government has probably done it.
@@anenemystand5582You misunderstand then. There is little comparispn between both because the average US soldier had the exact same beliefs and sensibilities as the average German one. Check surveys at the time (yes they were as racist, homophobic, anti semetic etc) they just didn't have a leader who could capitalise on those sentiments.
@@HSE331 there were some massive differences. For example. Americans weren't actively fighting to execute every Jewish, disabled person, slav, or homosexual.
I'd say that's a pretty big difference.
S U B T L E T Y
公王様、御言葉に重みがあるのぉ〜
comparing Gihren to Hitler is an insult to the 20th century. Not even hitler matches the barbarism of the zabis. Half of humanity dead at Loum, the single greatest evil ever committed, but it is overshadowed by a cacophany of other evils. You basically have to go back to the Assyrian Empire to find equals to Ghiren. Ashurbanipal would probably be in the same league.
I think he just means 'hey champ, you're kinda hitlering right now' from an ideological standpoint.
Which is wild, because Degwin doesn't seem to give a shit his son already murdered half of humanity, he just doesn't want him to kill half of humanity for racist reasons.
what about the Assyrian Empire?
Ah, yes. The middle ages. Baron Fuhrer Adolf of House Hitler, First of his Name.
love how Degwin's response to Ghiren going "See how someone who follows in Hitler's footsteps can fight." wasnt "oh my god he's lost it!" but instead "bro he lost though..."
I like to think he meant both
Does it mean are we the Baddies
Yes 😭
Love gundam
NO WONDER The English Version Was Changed
I remember hearing it in the English
It’s the same ua-cam.com/video/xw1lGlAOVT4/v-deo.htmlsi=2D8lgCgeiw6lrJK0
Damn....
What the heck !
So much parallel reality here, with Putin Russia's ambitions, in the war on Ucraine. What an Irony.
yo do u know the Austrian Painter by the name of the hit-ler