Talking about characters I think Mass Effect 2 is the prime example of “BioWare is about characters”, main story was basically non-existent, yet most people consider it best in the series. Thank you for the video, very interesting!
Despite everything, no other game from the series touched me as this one. Funnily enough, all the mistakes and misdirections made during it's development made it exactly what I would want, a game that feels like it has a soul f it's own. I think the most important things about a Dragon Age game are characters, choices and a great story, and it hits all those points. So for what it's worth, thank you. I think it is more than enough that what you guys created meant the world to someone, because I am definitely not alone, :)
da2 is the best game i've ever played. i always saw people gush about dai or dao but rarely did i see people talk about da2, and after playing the game myself i found myself not knowing how to move on from the experience that was playing da2. i have never felt a game be more human and connect with me personally as much as da2 did. the characters, especially hawke felt so, so real. i'll forever be grateful to the people who worked on this game and who put so much of their heart into the characters, their stories and kirkwall. da2 felt like a giant hug, albeit the hurt and pain you go through as hawke. getting on the game always feels like returning to family. thank you so much!
Wow, thank you for this. It was amazingly comprehensive. I totally agree that EA doesn't know how market these games. I never hated DA2, but it was apparent that it was rushed. My husband hated that he felt like he couldn't control or steer what was happening, though, he wanted to be a hero but the end made him feel helpless. I found that kind of story telling interesting, but I can see how it wasn't for everyone.
That's exactly what I love so much about the game. In fantasy whether it's fiction or RPGs, you're usually the powerful hero who saves the world. In DA2 you're just some guy who's trying to keep his life together and his family and friends safe. And in the end you fail at both. Spectacularly. I wish we'd see more stories like DA2 in gaming, but unfortunately a lot of gamers want the wish-fulfillment power fantasy.
I'ma be honest Dragon Age Exodus is such a cool title. Not only dose it work for the story. It also gives biblical vibes in a good way. I just love it!
It's fascinating to hear that the reuse of Kirkwall and DA2's time-based storytelling over area-based storytelling was born out of time constraints placed on the game's development, because it's one of the things I really like about the way the game tells its story. The world, and the characters and companions, can change and develop in ways, amounts and along paths that most RPGs don't have the time-pass scope to make realistic or believable - and in many cases the game *does* use this to its advantage when telling stories with characters like Aveline and Isabella. It also allows the player a much greater opportunity to actually see their choices bare out in ways that don't feel contrived or forced, because the expanding timeline means things you did as long as multiple years ago have time to "simmer", and it never really feels like the game is showing you scenes simply as flags to show you "yes, that choice you made during Act 1 mattered!", even if realistically the ramifications of that choice might not come into play during the timeline a typical RPG takes place during. Wide but shallow games have their own appeal, of course, but I really enjoyed the more "narrow but deep" experience that DA2 gave us - in fact, it has always been my favourite of the three Dragon Age games, even before Inquisition came out (which at the time was an opinion that would have been near-heretical to hold).
@@MarkDarrah for sure, I honestly think that's one of the game's greatest strengths (and that a lot of RPGs actually have too *little* reactivity in a lot of cases, though of course baking more of that that in leads to inflated costs, dev time, etc in almost all cases). I forgot to mention in my original comment but I was also a big fan of the rivalry/friendship system with the companions and how it changed the tones of your interactions with them rather then them just up and leaving or fighting you if you did too many things that dropped down a specific bar (while still retaining some sensible "breaking point" moments) - and how rivalry romances essentially doubled the amount of romance options in the game while still working with the same amount of base companions. Just wondering if you had any quick thoughts to share on that aspect of the game at all?
It's the only game where it truly feels like your followers have a life and relationships of their own. They make decisions regardless of your wishes and influence, they grow and change through the support of each other rather than you. The same goes for the world and setting. Things develop regardless of what you do. This I felt is DAO's biggest weakness where not just the blight but every crisis in the world will sit and wait for you to get around to fixing it.
I can't imagine how hard you had to work to create such an amazing game in such a short time. DA2 has a very special place in my heart. It's the only game that made me feel such intense emotions. I cried when Leandra died, I felt furious at Anders and it felt very good to kill him. The accomplishment and pride that I felt when templars kneeled before Hawke after defeating Meredith is a moment I will never forget . Just wanted to say thank you for creating such an amazing game in a very difficult situation. I am glad that more people now appreciate what you and your team had accomplished.
Sorry for the additional comment; I'm playing DA2 right now, and just wanted to call out a feature I particularly enjoy. When you open the quest log/journal, there's a section up top of "Rumours", like "coming soon" attractions for later quests that update over time (and eventually become actual side / main quests). The rumours all originate from Varric, which feels super natural and believable considering Varric is a rumour-monger, and would obviously let Hawke know what's going on in the city (I'm in the first act now, and it's double cool since Varric would pass this information along to you to fund the expedition). Just a really neat detail.
So cool to hear your perspective and memories of the creation of this game. From the very first time I played it, to now, it remains my favourite of the dragon age games, despite its obvious shortcomings. Hawkes tragic and triumphant tale told in three acts feels so much more personal and emotional than the other games. The characters writing is insanely good, and the relationships you build with them and the way these friendships, rivalries, and more intimate relationships progress and change over the in game years and events, just feels incredible. Every time I replay through the series, DA2 is still the one I am most excited to come back to, despite the fact I love them all. I am so grateful to the BioWare team for giving us this game, it’s meant so very much to me over the years.
Dragon Age 2 is my favourite Dragon Age game. The characters and the storey got to me more because it was shorter with less faffing around. It had it's flaws, but they never bothered me as much as some people. This was a really interesting video because of how you described the pros and negatives of the constraints you were under and how it both helped and hurt the game.
I enjoy these deep dives into the development history of one of my favorite series. (As it so happens, I enjoy the more intimate atmosphere of Kirkwall and DA2/Exodus is in my top 10 because of it 😅)
DA2 is by far my favourite Bioware game of all time. My favourite game of all time and it is exactly for the reason you said. The focus on characters. I loved Carver, Bethany, Merril, Isabella, Anders, Varric, Fenris and Sebastian. All of them felt alive and real especially with the banter where they talk about each other and have so much to say. Just hearing the how much Merril loves Hawke is so cool. I have said this before but I really thank you guys for making such an amazing game that I have loved ever since I played. Thank you so much to you and the wonderful people working on the game♥️
@@MarkDarrah I was so shocked the first time and the second time when you guys took the sibling away I was just devastated and really felt the pain Hawke was going threw. To me I just felt so hopeless that no other RPG did before. Was really good.
I enjoy and enjoy Dragon Age II, I like the concept of a protagonist who is "hero by obligation and not by choice" that was present in Origins but here is much better worked in my opinion, also noted that it’s touch of dark fantasy is much better achieved than in Inquisition (is one of my few complaints with it, along with the Hinterlands and some sidequests that felt much like errand missions except in rare cases), I also appreciate how it created many of the bases of the lore of the saga for later games. It seems to me a more personal story that is enhanced by a set of companions that feels much more organic and alive than the ones you have in Origins, the change of the rivalry system by the previous one of affection (that was broken with the gifts was a success) because it made you feel to know and interact with the characters not only as a game mechanic, nor as a necessity of the story, but as something interesting that really contributed much to the experience and the storytelling of the game itself. On the other hand I also liked that the story was more focused, yes of course it “sin” of the recycling of scenarios but it is understood due to the short development time. I think that one more year would have been great for this game. Many people didn't like the fact that it was a bit far from being a dark reinterpretation of Tolkenian fantasy, but personally I didn't dislike that, I think that in this game the saga found its identity which was even more affirmed in Inquisition, although the almost total lack of dark fantasy elements/atmosphere in this last one is one of the few flaws of the third game for me. Personally, the ending left me astonished and dismayed in equal parts, because I could not understand how after such a personal development and how the plot was escalating to an epic level, everything I did with Hawk did not change the course of events (beyond small things), which humanized the character and left you wanting to know how he would solve it i in a sequel (if he can find a solution) and what consequences would bring to the world of Thedas. In other words, it made you see this "hero by obligation" not as a chosen one, but as a common human trapped in events whose scale of repercussions went beyond what he could foresee and solve. After that ending I felt and saw again in the game the spark of inspiration in Tolkien (that Origins transmitted better through its setting and atmosphere) because I remembered immediately how Gandalf told Frodo who anyone can change the world, only that here was given a dark and hopeless twist to that concept. In sum and in synthesis for DAII seeing it in retrospective is like an unpolished jewel that shines once you know the history of its development and recognize how it influenced the current events of the saga (without forgetting its contributions to the lore) thanks to a great and very personal storytelling. Thanks for your great videos and greetings from Uruguay 🇺🇾, english is not my first language so sorry if the are some errors in my comment. Pd.: I still play DAII once or twice a year and still love it as much as I did when I first played it in 2012 at the age of 21.
The characters! I think you've helped me put my finger on why Dragon Age II is sincerely my favorite (not just out of fashion). I play games primarily as a narrative experience. It's the *characters* and their dynamics and relationships that make a story for me. That's also why I disliked just how much of a blank slate the Inquisitor was - they didn't feel like a real *character* in the same way the others did. Ironically the Warden, despite being a silent protagonist, had more (optional) personality and felt more grounded in the world (due to your chosen backstory tying into the main plot). Hawke, however, remains my absolute favorite DA protagonist and I'd dearly love it if future games would take Hawke as a model. Hawke is, despite your ability to customize her/him, a *person* - A real character with a family, an arc, personal tragedies. Your backstory isn't just some random text blurb incidental to the plot - it's the *key driving force* of the plot, and your loved ones (and their eventual fates) are a big part of your journey. I still haven't found another RPG that does that quite so well.
@@MarkDarrah And family, and personal stakes! Hawke feels the most "real" to me. I personally feel the way the Inquisitor was handled was a misstep. A blank slate character works for games like the Elder Scrolls. It doesn't work for a character-driven experience like Dragon Age. I find myself hoping that the protagonist of Dreadwolf, even if they aren't like Hawke, are at least closer to the Warden than they are to the Inquisitor.
I only played it for the first time in the last few years, and surprisingly enjoyed the (extreme) asset reuse. Reminded me of a stage play, where you need to bring some suspension of disbelief as an audience member, and the stage lets you focus more on the characters and situation than on the environment. Plus it didn't hurt to imagine that they all felt the same to Varric hah.
You talking about DA II having a really punchy opening reminded me of why I bought it in the first place, the demo! That intro made a PERFECT demo. Great showcase of what this game was all about.
Thanks for this video, extremely enlightening. I agree with you that DA: Exodus is a much stronger title, and I think could have avoided some issues I initially had with the game. I haven’t watched TV or exposed myself to mass marketing in at least 15 years, so my first impression of DA2 was, whoa, what’s this demo for a sequel?? There’s a sequel??? Cool!! I was very confused from the outset of, “who are these people? Where’s my warden? Where’s Morrigan? THAT’S Flemeth??” I felt like I must have missed another game or DLC pack or something. I did end up liking the game for the same reasons as you (characters, distinctive art design, and I loved my Hawke), but I had several years of getting to that point. I do agree that the constraints you faced likely contributed to a better game. Even though the environments were limited, the game had excellent variations in style and tone for missions. Yes, I’m going to the coast again, but it’s for a hilarious “date” for Aveline. Yes, I’m in the warehouse again, but it’s the backdrop for a really cool “renegade” dialogue for my Rogue Hawke. I think your team did great work, and I’m happy DA2 is remembered more fondly now. It’s making me want to play again :)
It's so cool that you have a channel and you talk about game development. I just love hearing about the behind-the-scenes stuff with video games. When I was in elementary school I had just finished DAO in preparation for DA2. When I finally got a copy of DA2 and finished it I was disappointed. I didn't like that it wasn't a sprawling adventure across Fereldan, the combat wasn't as tactical, and Hawke wasn't able to stop the start of the Mage-Templar war and be an incredible hero like the The Warden. I dropped the game and never picked it up until winter break of my freshmen year of college. I had my copy of DA2 at my parent's house and decieded that I'll give it another chance. At that point I considered myself a RPG veteran. I had played almost every RPG and during my return to DA2 I found that it was a breath of fresh air. All the things I hated when I was younger I loved now. I loved that instead of a story that took you across an entire nation we were stuck in Kirkwall, a city with so much character, history, and darkness. Even though I missed the tactical, slower combat of DAO I understood why the combat was fast paced. Varric is a writer and he wants to keep his audience captivated so of course the fighting would seem flashy and go at breakneck speed. Hawke is one of my favorite protagonist in fiction. Although they are not as customizable as say The Warden, I really connected with them and felt myself in their shoes. Hawke (while they are super badass) is just a regular person. They want to take care of their family, and shot the shit with their friends just like anyone else. Hawke wasn't trying to save the day, they were just the right person at the wrong place. In fiction, especially in RPGs, the hero is the chosen one, they save the day and get the girl, but not in this story. I do wish that ACT II was a bit longer. I think the Arishok was a great villian. I know that you were only the project director on DA2, but was the contrast between a snarky Hawke and the Arishok purposeful? The Arishok, to me, felt like an antithesis to snarky Hawke. I don't know if you guys did it on purpose or if I'm just reading too much into it.
It's refreshing to hear Mark Darrah talk about Dragon Age and the development cycle of the games more freely. I love your memory videos. Even though I liked Dragon Age II when it was released, I love it even more knowing the context of what the game was meant to be originally, and also after reading the Dragon Age novels as well. And I completely agree; Dragon Age: Exodus would have been a much better title for the game.
Sorry one more, THIRD comment on this video! I'm at the start of Act 3 in my playthrough and I'm embarrassed that I never noticed how many tucked away details there are in the game. I love that there's no quest objective to go back and talk to the Arishok after Qunari-based missions; there's no objective to visit the Chantry after the fiasco with Varnell and Petrice. There's no OBJECTIVE to do these things, they're just fun little rewards for taking a chance and talking to someone, for taking your time while playing instead of bull rushing the content. DAI is coming up for me soon, but I'm heartily tempted to play DA2 again first ;) You all did great work and glad you're getting recognized for it now.
It is definitely all about the characters in Bioware games, and ultimately that's why DAII it's in the running for my favorite Dragon Age game (all of them are my favorite in different ways, of course, but DAII kind of feels like the most quintessentially "Bioware" of them). Its smaller scope (and the focus on time instead of space) really puts that spotlight on the characters in a way that the other games don't necessarily, at least to an outside observer. It's something that's true of most/all Bioware games, but Dragon Age II is sort of a stripped down experience focusing on Bioware's greatest strength (which is a super smart decision for a game under this much constraints IMO). This lets the character writing shine so much more (and I've loved DAII since the early days specifically because of the characters, even if the chronically old lady in me had gripes about some changes relative to Origins in terms of systems and style). The one area it really stumbled for me was the combat, but honestly, over time I've come to appreciate a lot of its aspect. It's kind of the smoothest combat in a Dragon Age game, IMO: not as complex as DAO's in terms of character options and builds but with better game feel than Inquisition's. Like you point out the extreme asymmetry hurts it, and I was glad to see Inquisition move more toward the middle between symmetry/asymmetry (even if I actually prefer a more symmetric approach despite all of its problems). The middle ground is usually good for that kind of thing. I do have a soft spot for the Dragon Age: Exodus title and if we ever do see some kind of remaster/legendary edition for DAO/DAII (unlikely but a girl can dream!), I kind of hope they restore that title, at the very least, so that it feels like it fits in better with the other games. Also, I just wanna say: thanks so much for talking about these games like this! I'm not in the industry but I think about game design a lot even so, and I really like getting dev perspectives on my favorite games in particular.
so interesting. Dragon Age 2 definitely had me for its characters, like most people I suppose, but also because of how different the story is from other RPGs. It’s a tragedy. And it’s decisively DARK fantasy. The story isn’t so much a thing of glory and being the chosen hero that’s the strongest of all, it’s so much more about resilience and struggle and tragedy. and it works bc there’s so much focus invested in the characters and their relations, not to mention your character’s family. All that coupled with the dark magic and dark fantasy aspects, the miserable and heavy atmosphere of kirkwall, and down to the darker art style. I think that makes it even more emotionally impactful, and in a way makes the writing stronger. The way I see dragon age 2 is just the emo child of the dragon age family haha
Thank you for this video, Mark! DA2/Exodus is definitely my favorite of the series, because despite many of the flaws that you and others have pointed out, it's strengths are what make it. The characters and their relationships are some of the best in the franchise, and the narrative, while suffering some pacing issues sure, is really rich and solid. And while many may prefer the player-insert protag like the Warden and Inquisitor, my favorite will always be Hawke because they do have such a solid background and identity to work with. Also, the voice acting? Perfection. I could go on, as it is my favorite, but I'll stop now and thank you again for sharing this video!
I loved the story of DA2, we were a refugee trying to make a living in a foreign city. It was such a refreshing concept after saving universe in other rpgs billionth time. Shame it wasn't given enough time and released in the state it was. Gameplay wise I didn't like that DA2 took more action heavy stance and leave rpg elements behind (especially bummed about spell combos and diverse spellbook in DAO was left out)
Just for everyone who's considering playing/replaying the game, somebody over at the nexus released an incredible, 100% working tactical camera mod for DA2 a couple of months ago. As a fan of the tac-cam play style, it absolutely enhanced the game for me personally. Thanks for the video Mark, fascinating insights.
The discussion of how combat works in DA2 in comparison to the other games was really fascinating! Especially with the note that Inquisition was a middle of the road fusion between DA2 and DA:O in that respect. I've always enjoyed DA2 combat the most because it feels the most bombastic and dramatic and fun (especially combined with the distinctive animations that make rogues and warriors feel just as exciting as mages). My second favorite is DA:O, because despite the combat not feeling as dynamic, it often creates the feeling that I'm fighting against an enemy party with the same capabilities as mine (what I'm now recognizing as "enemy symmetry"). However, DA:I combat has always been utterly uninteresting to me for reasons I could never fully put my finger on. I'm wondering now if my issue is that it's in the middle of these two approaches without fully embracing either.
Regarding the ending, it actually never bothered me too much that both paths were similar. From your comments, not sure it was intended, but I took it as a thematically-appropriate indication that a single individual cannot prevent a war :) I do think though that the game requires Hawke to remain neutral-ish for too long.
I forgot how I always thought that section of the cave shown 30:42 was Mexico-shaped. That probably didn't help with not associating it as reused. Haha, it's been so many years.
I was really young at this time, it's so cool to hear the details. I remember when EA bought bioware and I was worried for mass effect, and hoping for a SP KOTOR. I didn't own a PC so I never played origins, and I don't remember hearing about dragon age at all. Until like, a year ago and I feel like you guys found a wonderful stride in companions and party. Nobody does it better than bioware right now, that's facts. Y'all have always lead the way with characters, banter, their backstory etc. It makes it really fun to make decisions and have your companions react. I can see how there would be backlash about it being called DA2 implying it's a direct successor. At the end of the day we've learned a lot, I don't think I've been someone to pressure devs to rush games but I think especially after CP2077 (which I actually liked on release) everyone seems to be more relaxed on things. I just wonder if you would've had more time and support if it was made during these times.
I saw something in one of groups I'm in that had the perfect way of looking at the cave reuse: Varric is telling the story to Cass, and he makes clear he hates caves. So the cave reuse can be explained by the idea that Varric is kinda saying here, "Seen one cave, you've seen them all." I like this headcanon!
Thank you so much for this incredibly detailed breakdown! 😄 I'm proud/relieved to say when I decided to play through Dragon Age a few years after DAI released, the completionist in me refused to skip DA2 (despite having been encouraged to do so). I can honestly say the reused assets had next to no impact on my overall enjoyment. As you said, the things that really mattered were still there! It's not perfect, but I think it's the most replayable because the combat is less grueling than DAO could be (even with the extra waves), and the side quests all feel super embedded in the prevailing atmosphere of Kirkwall (unlike DAI). Admittedly I did have a mod to skip Orsino's fight at the end, though I didn't know the context for *why* until I got to the end. Definitely had an effect on my feelings regarding the way the story concluded, but only for the better! I'm really really glad the game has had a renaissance of popularity.
Watched this video before playing Dragon Age: Exodus. I beat the game a few days ago and I feel it’s a testament to the resiliency and adaptability of your team. Thank you!
I'm very glad that more people are coming around to giving DA2 the credit it deserves. There's nothing quite like it in gaming. A fantasy ROG that isn't about savibg the world. It may not have as much variety to offer as DAO, but it will always be my favourite game in the series for the depth of the story and the characters. The smaller scale is a benefit. The combat is fantastic too.
DA 2 has THE BEST character of all DA games. Hawke and that character's story is one of the best examples of one of the best written characters (and protagonist's story) ever in gaming. Incredible character study.
Wait...you mean people didn't realize the real prize of a Bioware game is the characters? That is the primary reason I love Bioware games, is for the characters and their interactions and stories.
Loved to hear your thoughts and memories of this! I actually really like DA2 because I feel it has the best writing in terms of character. The same-cave syndrome was quite grating, though, especially in subsequent playthroughs, so I definitely agree that you can't just reuse something that is so recognizable. I will say that while I mostly liked the art direction of DA2, I thought the UI was way too modern-looking and took away from the fantasy of the game. DA:I somewhat fixes this, but imo it still looks way too modern for the kind of vibe I feel like it's going for.
"Akira Kurosawa in the Norther Renaissance" explains so much of why I love the style of DA2 over the other games. The style of DA2 carries over into DAI and really helped set it apart.
Love love love that more Dragon Age fans and people in general are realizing that DA Exodus (DA2) is a really great game. Seeing your great DA2 video and actually thinking about my DA2 experience I finally realized that DAO isn't my favorite game ever. My favorite game of all time is both DA2 and DAO. Just that DA2 experiments outside the normal power fantasy trope makes DA2 feel almost unique and amazing. Hawke's story arc feels more like an invictus hero. I get how Varic reacts in DAI if Hawke dies and it breaks me ... a game breaks me to the floor. I stand corrected in this moment I acknowledge DA Exodus is my favorite game of all time ... although yeah fixing Orsino would definitely make it even better. Thanks.
Dragon Age 2 was a masterpiece. Considering the conditions levied upon it's development and schedule, that we got WHAT we got is an actual miracle. An absolute miracle. And a testament to the boots on the ground people who made it.
I didn't mind the whole Hawke female and male, with warrior, rogue and mage roles. I actually enjoyed it. I had fun with the wheel. I didn't mind the environment reuse. But I was like, this could of been done better. They could of made at least two, but I didn't think it was that bad behind the scene.
The video I always wanted! Thanks for this. I remember certain story beats and character arcs really resonating with me in ways few other games had. The game transpiring over some years seemed really unique to me as well. Really got me invested in the characters of Kirkwall--moreso than, say, the Inquisitor and company. Still really love them, but DA2 hits different.
I remember arguing when the game was new that DA2's reputation would improve in sort of the way Legend of Zelda Majora's Mask's did, where there was an immediate sense of betrayed expectations but that people came to understand the unique things it was good at. DA2 is still my favorite because it's such a tight focused experience and I appreciate the character focus that can only express that way in a time based narrative. It's a unique game that never would have happened in any other way. It's a fascinating example of constrained design in a genre where going big or the appearance of it is the norm.
I had basically quit what passed for social media by that point for unrelated reasons and missed the hub bub. Da2 was and is one of my favorite games and I still replay it every couple years, just like it's "bigger" siblings. Edit: I would add that it is essentially a gothic romance story, which was perfect as crafted for Cass.
Haha, the cup size joke brings back memories, because I totally fell for it. IIRC, there was an early demo that didn't reveal the joke, and I was totally furious about Bethany's huge assets and thought "is that Bioware under EA now, oversexualizising everything?" (given that it was also already known how Isabella looked). I was really vocal about that too... so when the joke was revealed it might've still been a juvenile one, but hats off to you for forcing me to delete a blog post and a few forum posts. XD I'd say it would still be okay today, juvenile narrators haven't died out yet and the joke's on them, not the subject. :D
@@MarkDarrah Yeah, it was a combination of everything, not the character design alone. People (me included) were looking for every proof EA would be the whip-cracking downfall of Bioware, and DA2 was full of them - from developing time over redesign to the "amazing button". My view on DA2 has changed over the years, but it's still not my favorite, mainly for stylistic reasons - the redesign, while I see your point in the necessity, was just not my cup of tea (the "blocky/spiky" artstyle), and I think both style and the writing caters to a younger audience, every party member must be over the top "badass" right in their introduction. Sexualization wasn't my main complaint, just a part of that whole impression.
DAII is one of my favorite games! I love the focus on the characters and I loved all of the characters. I really loved the new approach to the friendship meter. The voice acting was amazing and the story was well executed. I’m not blinded to its flaws - I know the stages were reused a lot, but it doesn’t bother me that much even though it would have been nice to see more visible changes in the city through time. My personal rationalization for it is that the game is a play and they are reusing props on the stage. I did the same justification for DA:O which I also love. As a side note - I don’t think Bethany’s cup size change was a mistake. I thought it was hilarious when I noticed it and it really underscored that this was a story that Varic was telling rather than an historic event. He was building a myth and he exaggerated.
I love these memory videos. I've said a couple of times on twitter (sorry), but I hated DA2 when I played for the first time around 2013, but I replayed it in 2020 mostly because now I knew the context of production and most importantly I'd seen someone say DA2 (and the series overall) was full of references to real life issues and that made me want to replay it, and now i say DA2 is a great game, an 8 out of 10 for reference as opposed to a 5. Also for reference, I give Inquisition 9 and Origins 10.
I actually loved DA2 it turned out to be one of my favorite games of all time. I loved the combat, the companions, and I wished we could have had a pirate type DLC featuring Isabella with sailing, maybe ship to ship combat backgrounds, pillage, treasure hunts, etc... just really liked the relationship with Isabella wished we could have had a really good DLC with her story in it.
Loved DA2 but I think DAI fucked up hard handling Hawke and their love interest (besides Isabela). Wish DA2 had 1 more year worth of development, or seeing what the Exalted March DLC would have been. Siding with the Templars, I would have preferred not to fight Meredith, I don't think it's fair to play narrative favorites when both groups have been shown to be demonstrably awful, or incompetent, or some combination of the two
When playing DA2 I admit I had trouble getting invested in Hawke’s journey. It was the same with MEA. However, what makes me more likely to play DA2 again is exactly because I got so invested in the relationships Hawke develops with their companions. Like, if I leave Hawke in the fade in DAI, the reason I’m sad is because it makes Varric sad.
@@DarthDaineseyeah when is stroud is easy to leave him but when it's Alistair it becomes much hard to decide who to leave 🥲 you either break Varric's heart or the Warden's heart
I have to say, I've been a fan of all these games since Origins launched, played them more than any other game series besides Kingdom Hearts, watch lore videos and things like that...and I never noticed the people in the wings of the DA2 dragon negative space, 😅. Question: You mentioned time skips and that first act shrinking, what was the thinking behind mercenaries or smugglers before Act 1? Was that cut down for scope purposes or was it always a small decision to just get you into the city? Always wondered about that, it felt out of place.
@@MarkDarrah A shame, but even still, I love DA2, always thought the criticism of the game was overblown...except the caves. Thanks for the video and your insight, Mr. Darrah.
My favorite Dragon Age game, from a pure enjoyment basis. It's short compared to the other DA games, a big plus, and the story is tight and impactful. Hawke is extremely relatable (purple/direct Hawke forever, lol). I honestly love this game. It's almost like a visual novel of one of Varric's books, so obviously that means heavy combat mechanics.
For what it's worth, I *loved* Dragon Age 2, and I still do. I've saved the universe so many times in video games that the smaller, personal scope of DA2 felt really different and refreshing. It felt really great to just follow this one person through the different chapters of their live, and help them make a living, take care of their family, and make friends.
Also, in addition I'll add, DA2 has the best combat. Hands down. (Still dont like waves of enemies, but see "constraints" and this is a minor thing). It's still the best combat in the DA series IMO.
This is really insightful, thank you for sharing. For what it's worth, I absolutely loved DA2. I hold all three DA games at an equal score; they each have things I love and some things I dislike. With DA2, I found the strongest aspects to be the story, atmosphere and new art style; all were so well executed. Yeah, the worst parts are the ones that are clearly rushed, and that's unfortunate, but the good parts are so so good. Also, I know everyone loves customizing characters, but damn I actually really like how streamlined everything was in DA2. I'm trying to enjoy a story, not micromanage my inventory and armour for 8 different characters haha. Anyway, thanks again for sharing this, I really enjoyed listening.
I think really short projects often end up being some of the most interesting results. Dragon Age 2 is honestly one of my favorite BioWare games ever, even though I can see how it's a relatively narrower package than Origins in a lot of "Player-friendly" aspects. Less classes, less roleplaying options, streamlined mechanics, narrow world-scope, yet it feels so dense. DA:O has a lot of intricate moments with NPCs to talk to and cool quests, but it is also broad strokes across a 3-act epic, but Dragon Age 2 is more like this TV show in a world that explores each little moment. You don't just arrive at a point where something has happened and "go stop it", you trace every step taken by different characters, and you remember different names across many hours of plot, as the story slowly turns into a true chain of events. Within that, there was so much roleplaying to do in the dialogue-system, and party conversations, that it engrossed me big time. I often feel like smaller projects, although they typically were like a crunch-nightmare, have the benefit of not looking back. On really long projects you often see signs of, in the final product, that the developers reached a point where they started second guessing which direction they were taking, and pivoted the design, or started to adapt to new Industry-trends late in development. For games like Zelda, Majora's Mask, and this game, it's like lightning in a bottle, where it's just one level of speed and "GO". And the developers don't really realize what they've put together until their audience does. While first-drafts of writing are often rough, I find that it has intent. DA2 feels very raw because nobody had the proper time to fully review everything and go in and change it 15 times to make it perfect, so I imagine a lot of the designers were just on one train of thought and moving forward, and anything that didn't work was removed pretty early, because you know you couldn't spend the time on making it good. So instead, there's a lot of direct feedback of executing on concepts, and landing whatever has a good result, and packing the game with gut-feelings. I'm sure there was also a lot of adjustments in that short development cycle and that the script we see is not just a first-draft, but DA2 feels like it benefited from that unedited first-instinct. It only has what the train of thought was in its time frame, and it doesn't have lots of extras or variations upon itself, but it has a total focus on just this one kind of story, the city level and surroundings, and painstakingly following the cast and familiar NPCs in a linear thread. There's no sense of bloating which I feel that very long projects often end up having.
If you have to go with your 1st draft, there is no time to sand off the edges. Sometimes those edges are amazing things that can only exist because there wasn't time to second guess.
I was one of the people who was immediately disappointed by DA2 - to the point where I didn't buy any of the DLC for years, and never replayed it until the DLC were all released - and then grew much more fond of it after a significant amount of time. I think it may not have been until my "prep" replay of DAO and DA2 anticipating DAI that I realized it was a *much* better game than I remember. Your team deserves a lot of credit for what they accomplished, and I hope they know that despite how the game was received at launch. DA2 is a game about relationships, when I was expecting a game about the noble art of murder-hoboing (which makes sense, because Hawke has a HOUSE! They are canonically NOT a hobo, murder notwithstanding!). And a game about relationships is actually really cool and good, but it took me getting over my disappointment about what I thought I wanted to see that. And almost the entire reason I did is because I knew regardless of everything that happened, there would be plot and story elements from DA2 that would affect DAI. The fact that these games have story and lore so important that it's worth playing through a game I didn't remember even enjoying says a lot about the quality of the series overall, I think, especially with regard to the writing. I will say, I think EA/Bioware's marketing has improved significantly. Admittedly extremely little has been released regarding Dragon Age: DreadWolf, but what *has* been released is laser-targeted at "treehouse people." Tiny tidbits that mean less than nothing to non-fans or even a lot of casual fans have been ravenously and eagerly devoured by enthusiasts who pore over every detail and pull out awesome stuff to get hyped over (yes, I did watch Ghil Dirthalen's video about the title drop right before watching this). No telling if DreadWolf itself is going to be mind blowing or disappointing, but the marketing has learned to do a lot with a little. Here's hoping the dev team is getting the support they need to make something great out of it.
I actually quite enjoyed DA2 when it first came out, although this was around the time when I cared too much about achievements and ended up burning myself out on the game by the end of it. That said I still liked the game overall despite the flaws, in fact it was this game that I showed my dad to convince him that the series was worth his time and now the Dragon Age series is his favorite game series of all time, with DA2 still as his favorite of the three. He's also been clamoring for Dreadwolf lol.
I remember hating Dragon Age 2 on release for many of the reasons harped upon by the fans and players. Back then as a college student studying digital media and wanting to get into the games industry, I was super critical of it. Now that I'm actually an MMO dev and have worked on AAA games, reexamining this game and watching this video has given me a very fresh perspective of things. The characters were definitely the highlight of the game, and I actually liked the combat changes over DA:Origins and still think it's better than DA:Inquisition. You're right about how EA markets sports games versus other genres, and I say this having been a game designer at EA Tiburon on NBA Live. The ol' college student in me who played this game back then still blames EA for what happened with DA "Exodus" and Mass Effect 3 though, and I admit it's extremely hard to shake that off. Thanks for making these videos and reminiscing, I look forward to watching more!
Awesome video, i like the insight on the game's development, i would very much like this type of lengthy videos from time to time, it's 1 hour long in which you do not repeat yourself and talk only interesting and informative, quality In my opinion the game is a classic, a good game i enjoyed the combat, the story, the voice acting was top, the world, the feel of it, the deep roads part was my favorite, the only thing that became tedious by the end a little was coming back and back again to the same areas and dungeons but now i can understand why it had to be like that. Also personally i liked the ending that way having to fight both Orsino and Meredith despite the side you chose to stand with, i am tired of the black and white narrative instead of gray or left and right instead of middle. Both had flaws and both had wrongs and both had some truths Thank you for the video. You are the best!
I've heard this argument before so I have to give it weight. But for me the PRO-mage ending feels like it does so much to undermine the mage side. With the Templar side, it falls on Merideth. With the Mages, all the mages seem to turn.
DA2 is my favourite game of all time. Not just my favourite DA game or favourite Bioware game or favourite RPG. favourite. game. period. I've always argued that the asset reuse was itself a result of Varric being the framing storyteller. "So, we went into this cave, and..." "What did the cave look?" "I don't know. It's a CAVE, seeker. Who cares? the important thing is..." That said, what are your thoughts on how, say, City of Heroes handled instances, with modular tilesets that could be mixed and matched to procedurally combined to create a floorplan that is, if not unique, at least a bit fresher than just the same thing over and over. (I admit by the time I got done playing that game, I could recognise the tiles a soon as I crossed into them, and say "Ok, when we turn this corner, it will open into a room and therew will be bad guys here, here and here.". But ti took a long time for me to really have that intuitive knowledge, and aI still wouldn't know what was on the other side of that tile until I got the junction point.)
I loved each game for different reasons, but they each included me as part of great story. Your team was, above all else, an epic band of storytellers. Mad respect. Whatever happens, I look forward to the stories you'll continue to share. I sincerely hope your team finds their way back to one another to tell at least one more story -- even if that story isn't about Thedas. A heartfelt thank you. 😊
I know DA2 was hard on all of you, with upper command, EA and fan demand. By no means is it easy to be a dev. I think despite all the problems DA2 came out very well. In the fan circles we made up an in world reason for all smaller scale locations. I liked the accent varrients between City elves and Dailish ect. ( i know a north and welsh accent when i hear it). I think the smaller scale giving the world a little more intimacy. Its amazing what you guys accomplished in 16 months. Its just sad that bio/EA took the company in the "Bioware Magic" route and put you all under unnecessary stress Continuously .
Thanks for the video, I really enjoy these deep dives into the development of these games and I am looking forward to the inquisition video. I would like to hear about how you plan as a team for future installments when you decide to make expansions/dlc´s like Legacy for DA2 and Trespasser for DAI.
Ohhh! You actually released it a day after the stream, didn't realize you were so speedy! DA2 is my favorite out of the whole series due to its story being different from the rest of generic fantasy save the world. I liked the combat changes after Origins to include more team combos, which IMO challenge the players to make a good team and get rewarded with it. My favorite aspect has to be the fact that Kirkwall is actually interconnected. There are different entrances, my favorite example has to be that when you go to the Docks from the Gallows, it drops you in a non-existent entrance, because hey you probably took a ship to get to the pier. It's like a bigger Orzammar for me, there is a map, and it's not like Denerim where in lore it's supposed to be a massive city, but you spend 90% of the game in the market district with only one gate to connect to the outside world. I played DAI before Origins so I don't remember much about Val Royeaux, but it is genuinely rare to have a fantasy city that is interconnected. Also, the DLCs are HIGHLY underrated, it shows what the rest of the game could have been like if it wasn't rushed. The puzzles and bosses were fun and challenging (why did the team spike the difficulty in the DLCs so much? I liked it, but it's still jarring), and no dungeon reuse!
Dragon age 2 is not just my favorite dragon age game, but my favorite game of all time. Like in one of your replies, it has a very high concentration of certain things per gameplay time. Hearing that what the BioWare recipe is has been found and is now deliberate makes me very excited for DAVE
Main reason it took me years before replaying DA2 for the first time - textures. Or more like general look of the game color- and texture-wise. Everything looks kinda... idk soapy? The whole game is done in 1 color palette of beige and brown and it's dismal. I understand when the city fallows this trend - it's supposed to be dismal, but when you go to the beach and everything is biege and brown again and then you look out over the sea and see a couple of dark soapy 2d sprites instead of any kind of vista.... the game honestly gives me cabin fever every time. Guess, that's the dwarve's point of view. Otherwise if you know that the game is very special in it's essence (not naming it da2 would do a lot of good, i see it now, when you said it) - the story and characters are good enough for me to replay it about 5 times by now. Honestly, I think "the box" is what I love the most about the game. I mean the idea of this warrior-looking burly man turning around and using magic in the flashy combat style way is so unique here. I love the face they chose for the box, love the armor, love the choriography of the fight in the trailer, I love the shit out of how trailer transitions into the box cover. It's all Perfect. I don't think I ever so something quite like this anywhere else. I still rewatch this trailer from time to time and it gets me exited every. time. I noshit have the box cover as my pc wallpaper rn, after replaying da2 last time half a year ago. It's fucking epic. All in all, every time I replay DA2, I keep dreaming someone would rework it and kinda... bring the game closer to the trailer. Add colors, textures, cave instances, make Hawk's lines and their delivery a bit less artificial he-he. The game of it's format has the potential to be absolutely epic.
Lol increasing the cups because it was varric's story "point of view" . I totally missed that, but i believe it's a smart way of putting it, i would not remove it at all but instead i would have go all in, like, giving the males bigger butts, and giving everybody sharper varric like chins, making the weapons bigger dramatic thunders in the back and so on lmao. Great video, i enjoyed watching the 1 hour video with a cup of hot tea, nice listening to you, can't wait for the inquisition one
As much as DA2 was a big clusterfuck, it was also a fun game that I replayed a few times (and it has great DLC), and this video is making me itch to go back and replay it yet again.
Dragon Age: Exodus has a very nice ring to it, indeed. I used to joke around with my friends that the game is called because there are exactly 2 Dragons to fight in it XD You are absolutely correct about the cave being real problem about environment reuse. I haven't played DA2 in a while, but I am very sure that I remember all the locations inside the cave. The only thing I dislike about the game is that you cant customize your companions' armors and clothes. The one thing I truly love about DA2 is how the skill trees were redesigned. They had a modernized feel, compared to the generic style of DAO. Personally, I have enjoyed DA2's combat more than the other two games in the series. DA2 is also a very good example of "nothing you do matters, no matter the choice you take," and it makes it very obvious from the beginning By that I mean, it doesn't hide behind the illusion of choices made by the players that lead to the illusion of ending types, which most people think of as the epitome of video game story telling. -Was there any consideration for the original DAO sequel (Not DA2) to become an MMORPG of any kind? -Was it always the plan to make the game more Human-centric by using Hawke and ignoring other races, for the player character (regardless of it being DA2 or the original expansion/sequel)?
"it doesn't hide behind the illusion of choices made by the players that lead to the illusion of ending types" spot on! whenever there's talk about "your choices don't matter" I wanna ask did they ever? endings and major story beats are always the same, no matter what kind of playthrough you do, everything else is just flavor
I appreciate your insight into the pros and cons of symmetrical design. I confess that, as a player, my preference leans more toward symmetry, but my interest is more in how it affects my overall perception of the game world and its inhabitants, which is to say, a good chunk of my immersion. For me, when everyone is the same, regardless of whether they're allies, enemies, or my own character, it just feels more real, like we're all just people existing in this virtual fantasy space. In contrast, when there's a clear distinction in gameplay between playable characters and enemy characters that isn't reinforced by setting or narrative, it puts what I feel to be undue strain on my suspension of disbelief. It doesn't come close to ruining the experience, but it's something that generally grates on me. I don't say this to be critical. I am, however, curious as to whether or not this concern ever came up during development, or if you have any thoughts on it now.
This was my favorite game of the series even though it had its issues Hawke was a different kind of protagonist and the characters were great in general
this whole thing about it being focused on the characters is exactly why i love it (and dragon age in general) so much. Like yes there are very important plots happening in all three games, but the characters being just as important is IT for me.
@@MarkDarrah precisely. That’s why there certain things, choices that i never officially make no matter how different my playthroughs are. I want the characters to be in the workd one way or another
Man i was cool to hear the story of the game. I can understand why you are so proud of what you made, in so Little time. I remember when DA 2 came out i did not play it all the way through, in fact i don’t think i even got past act 1. I think at the time i did not like the combat, not because it was new or more action orientated, but because of the spawning in of enemy’s in combat. I rember that cased me so much frustration the i stopped playing the game. I also notes the reuse of caves and the outside environment. I think a disagreed with you on why the cave did not work, for me it was because you when in caves so much that you notice, also it was big for me that the cave would sometimes be blocked by a door, that looked like you could open it due to the map. That and enemy spawning was often the same places made the cave feel repetitive. I also think you were spot on the marketing, i know that i turned me off the game as well. i played DA 2 years latter and i liked it a lot. i think you are right that the character i liked them a lot. Also i kind of liked the time skeeping, i think it worked out well in the Withcer 3 as well. There is something about seeing the world progress, and seeing the consekvences of your action play out in game that is cool. I hope that DA 2 gets a remake someday, I don’t think it will take all the much work to make a super awesome game.
I am relatively new to the DA series and I played through the whole series last year, and DA2 was honestly my favorite. It was surprising to me to see that it was apparently so disliked by OG fans. The story felt more personal, and I felt a lot more attached to the companions. Their relashionships also felt very real and entertaining to watch. Also loved Hawke being some unfortunate guy or gal that just keeps getting dragged into trouble and trying to make the best of it. Inquisitor describes them perfectly in Inquisition. "He gave his life not because he swore an oath, or been marked as special, but because SOMEONE had to do it."
Everybody complained (at the time of release and continues to do so even these days) that DA2 had a ton of reusable locations for various quests, yet nobody seems to mind the same problem (which is more prevalent) in boring Oblivion, Skyrim and various other RPG-wannabes.
@@MarkDarrah I'd say only thanks to the scope of the game. DA2 was done in a year and it took around 5 years for Skyrim to be done and it still turned out boring.
Great video, really like this kind of content. My perspective on DA2 is probably different from most as I'm a recent DA fan (though I wasn't new to BioWare games, I was a big fan of Mass Effect), but I was still somewhat aware of fan perception of the games - namely that Origins is the "best" and DA2 is the "worst". I, however, didn't feel that way, I enjoyed DA2 more than Origins in fact. Maybe part of that is because I played on console, maybe part of it is I came from ME with its action combat, maybe it was just because my expectations weren't for a direct sequel to DAO, I'm not sure. One thing I really liked about DA2 was actually the more linear aspect of it, with the 3 Act structure and the timejumps. It made me feel as if I could see character and story arcs progress over time (kind of like a mini ME trilogy actually, just condensed into one game). I think it contributed to me having stronger feelings (whether positive or negative) about the companions in DA2 compared to most in DAO. As you said, it's about the characters stupid. I also overall have a positive outlook on the course the story takes at the end (Anders betrayal, Orsino succumbing to blood magic, Meredith going crazy) and how Hawke is essentially powerless to the destruction of Kirkwall. I found it a compelling narrative, and for another ME comparison, one of the reasons ME3 is my favorite ME game due to its similarity there (a narrative driven by tragedy and desperation). Both games are complained about endlessly due to "choices not mattering at the end" but I like it in both cases lol
1. Its lovely that DA2 actually had a name. 2. Yea...we all know that cave. 3. I loved DAO but I fell in love with all of the characters in DAE. First time meeting a dwarves character that I liked. I romanced Anders and got up from my seat and waited for 10mins because I couldn't decide what to do.
I'm eight minutes into the video; and my thoughts at this part about Dragon Age 2 being made out of an expansion pack has always been amazement. The fact the team made a full fledged game out of an expansion pack with such a short turn round development time, a game I think is much better than people give it credit for, is truly amazing. It's not the best game out there, and not the best Dragon Age game, but it's still a great game on its own merit. The only thing in my opinion that is obvious that lets the game down is the necessary reuse of maps for it to be made in that short span of time. Dragon Age 2 is still up there for me as one of my favourite games.
I can't believe how much of your content I have missed. You've been busy, I'm still catching up. Still happy to support you. I think Dragon Age 2 was an incredible accomplishment, although I don't understand EA's dislike of expansion packs given they fall over themselves with it for The Sims. I am full of presumptions about this though; one is that it's 'easier' to create, one would think that you'd be using all the tools you developed for the actual game in the development for its expansion so the barrier to entry would be much lessened. While I suspect it's true that the percentage of people playing the expansion would be much less than those who play the base game, I would also assume the cost to develop an expansion is much less too. I also would be interested to see what that percentage would be with CDPR given how much loved Heart of Stone and more specifically Blood & Wine were (and the upcoming Cyberpunk 2077 one) As to DA2's longevity; a part of me thinks it's survived so well is because of how stable the game engine is. I don't recall any bugs occuring at all, no crashes (which I know you had to make sure of given console certification, but I've still occasionally had games crash to desktop on xbox360 etc, etc). I don't recall a single hiccup on PC either. I think in many ways it's reuse of assets and it's distinctive art style has helped it (although I admit I wasn't too crazy on it when it came out - especially the elf redesign). If Dragon Age Origins was a grand tale of betrayal, stakes and hope, then DA2's much more intimate tale was a breath of fresh air. It didn't *have* to reinvent the wheel or tell a grand story, because it had already done that in the first game. Your discussion about asset re-use makes sense. I think your explanation about the cave system and why that wasn't successful is because it's a natural habitat, so I don't think any cave system is alike due to that (although I am a novice when it comes to spelunking!). That's why we can't provide the suspension of disbelief because that light beam is something we've seen before. In truth, we may have been able to look past that if it only happened a few times, but when it's every call to explore a cave. Although I think the argument can go both ways. Look at the game Warframe from Digital Extremes. In that game the player goes exploring and blasting their way through numerous spacecraft that belong to the Grineer and Corpus. But why are those 'levels' randomly generated from a multitude of different tilesets that are chosen and then 'slotted' together? Surely a space craft; of all things, would use a singular design for a space vessel class. It would be horrible, not to mention confusing if you were Grineer soldier 429 to be transferred from cruiser #5525-A to #5525-B if it had a completely different interior design.
I have really enjoyed this video and the one on origins. I started with inquisition and now that I’m older and appreciate the development of video games more I played origins and 2 and really value what they did. Your insight is fascinating as a player of these games. Lots of heart put into dragon age
This might be a lot of rambling, so bear with me. It makes me sad that to this day, there are still people giving shit to DA2 for being what it is. Even though what it is is really damn impressive considering the time frame it was developed in. When the game came out in 2011, my reaction was basically the "holy shit! two cakes" meme. I didn't see a problem with it. I had already played Origins and I loved it of course, but DA2 looked amazing as well. I wasn't able to buy and fully play through it until early 2015, but after that, it went on to become one of my favourite games of all time. (Also, the Mark of the Assassin DLC ROCKS.) I genuinely didn't mind the single city location or the repeating dungeon maps. I'm someone who needs to use walkthroughs for 99% of the games I play anyway, so going into already familiar location was a huge help. What I also loved is that the companions had story arcs in each act so they felt more believable and also, none of the romances were bad. In fact, Anders's romance with Male Hawke helped me come to terms with my sexuality all those years ago. Lastly, the combat felt really smooth and flashy, which definitely helped with the game aging well. When I was finally able to play through DAI in 2017 or so, I did 2 playthroughs in total and I had a decent time with them. but as time went on, the game's problems became more and more apparent. The open world aspect sucks and few areas feel good to play in, combat feels artificially difficult due to inflated HP numbers on enemies and also due to the removed healing spells, Frostbite is a horrible engine, the writing can be highly questionable most of the time,the number of romances feel super limited when you're not playing a Female Inquisitor,etc. I regularly go back to Origins and DA2 and they feel like "home" in a way, whereas DAI's issues are the reason why I've not been able to do another playthrough since 2017. Also, I just find it really hard to be excited for DA4 after everything.
Given that all of DA2 is told by Varric to a seeker of the chantry, I always headcannoned that Orsino and some of the mages actually go into hiding if you side with mages, and Varric lies and says Hawke killed them and Orsino in order to cover their tracks.
I really enjoyed DA2, it was clear at the time there was stuff going on behind the scenes and I think we got was well thought out. I liked the day/night cycle within the city, it was a good use of the gaming space. Also, I live a 20 minute drive from the real world Kirkwall so I'll always have a soft spot for this game.
@@MarkDarrah It made the city feel a lot more alive, a lot of games only tell you its not safe to walk the streets at night but DA2 showed you. And the amount of DA2 cosplay is unreal, people really connected with those characters. I see so much of myself in Isabella, her romance is so touching.
Wow, an enjoyable and very informative coverage of DA 2, especially the analysis of the marketing with the treehouse/frat house analogy. This really is a help for me in at least lending some understanding of Gamer attitudes and behavior toward the game, which I was felt was unacceptable at the time. The hue and cry over the flaws of the game, that it wasn’t Origins. And worst of all the social media hazing of writer Jennifer Hepler was/is unforgivable, and an unacceptable loss of a writer who had little to no recourse and no effective way to back her from the psycho gamer hordes, in part because social media algorithms favor rage modes, or whatever the reason. What I learned here was that marketing unintentionally set up the core community, which doesn’t excuse or mitigate the bad behavior of gamers, and arguably doesn’t change anything in how I feel about the ugliness within the gaming social media sphere. But the explanation is at least telling us that a company has an awareness of how the marketing affects consumer knee-jerk reactions that are not always conscious, and indeed leading to a way-overblown response beyond legitimate feedbacks like tweaking reused assets. The story is phenomenal and my favorite game of all time (my first game being Pong in 1975 so I go way back). Really a theme for me is how very small events in one person’s life leads to big consequences involving the world, how small things connect. In this case, it’s love and the love of family/friends, Hawke trying to make a life and it unhinges everything. The qunari seemed like an allegory of the wars/conflicts of the day with orthodoxy in religions, would anyone even dare write that today? Who knows. As part of the treehouse, I wish this title had more flexibility for gaming challenges without mods, such as solo Nightmare mode. But Inquisition certainly added that back and I hope the next title keeps that flexibility because I can tell you that the treehouse streaming the game for years via challenges gets a lot of people to play who otherwise skipped the title.
I've had a problem with the shadows being so black in DA2; I'm just realising now, with your comment on Kurosawa in the High Renaissance, how a black and white mod would accentuate the art style of DA2 in a striking manner! While DA:O had a bit of a problem with distinguishable values, DA2 really leaned into the almost brutalist visuals of Kirkwall with the top-down lighting in an almost Caravagesque effect.
For a second there I thought you were using a modded body mesh for Bethany, so I guess I didn't notice her cup size change while playing but did when watching.
The Dragon Age games are my absolute favorite games ever because of the characters, their personalities and the ability to have those relationships with them. That's why I like Dragon age games better than the witcher games, skyrim, dos2 (other games that I do really enjoy tho) but it just makes the Dragon age games so much more special for me. I feel like the witcher really tries to implement those relationships as well but for me it never worked that well, I'm not excited to talk to Triss or Yen or have a relationship with them (maybe also because the witcher is always a man and I can't identify with him) but I do always get excited to talk to the Dragon age characters even tho I played through especially inquisition like 25 times and I still always love listening to the conversations ❤️
I really enjoy this video, I bet it took a long time to make. and I appreciate it. (also I love dragon age 2). The secret sauce is characters. Could you make videos where you talk about that until we beg you to stop beating that poor horse? I want the ratio of that sauce, I want the color dye of it. I want step-to-step guidance on the recipe on a page where I have to scroll half the page through ads and the life story of the creator to get to it. If this sauce requires me to understand the culture of 1700 to read the recipe I will buy the books...ok i might me spreading a little thick , but you get the point.
I think for all its flaws, DA2 did so many amazing things. I've replayed it (completely) at least 26 times. Had some of the best characters (yes, the characters are where this game shines so well) I've never hated it. I did notice the flaws, but I didn't care that much about them. My only real disappointment had been Act 3. As I felt it should've veered more drastically based on supporting templars/mage. I did like the combat. Even more than DAO. To this day, I think DA2 is my fave in terms of pacing, reactivity, characters, location, and voice acting. The only other thing that stood out as "wish this were tweaked a bit" was the friendship/rivalry system, which I like the IDEA of but I didn't exactly love the iteration of it. I do love the DA2 art. I have a DA2 poster on my wall, right in front of my desktop. It's such a great image.
I also think act 3 should have been more different. And I think there were ways to have gotten there if I had been willing to allow plot locked content. Or more time.
Another interesting insight into this flawed but enjoyable game. Thanks! One thing that I may have missed or you may have not discussed it is the tendency to repeatedly pop in additional enemies in just about every combat situation. I felt like this was way overdone and really stuck out as a negative for me as a player. I could see having more enemies arrive during a fight now and then, but it just came across as filler to lengthen combat when they just "pop in", seemingly falling from the sky, emerging from the ground, or literally appearing out of thin air. If the choice is between making the first enemy group tougher so they take longer or "artificially" popping in additional enemies, I'd prefer making the initial group tougher.
My pinned comment disappeared...
I have no idea what happened.
Sorry to anyone who replied to that...
Personally I actually love the name dragon age exodus
Talking about characters I think Mass Effect 2 is the prime example of “BioWare is about characters”, main story was basically non-existent, yet most people consider it best in the series. Thank you for the video, very interesting!
YES! Mass 2 was the most intentional about this by far
Despite everything, no other game from the series touched me as this one. Funnily enough, all the mistakes and misdirections made during it's development made it exactly what I would want, a game that feels like it has a soul f it's own. I think the most important things about a Dragon Age game are characters, choices and a great story, and it hits all those points.
So for what it's worth, thank you. I think it is more than enough that what you guys created meant the world to someone, because I am definitely not alone, :)
Also I think it has a very high concentration of certain features. As a result, if those resonate…
da2 is the best game i've ever played. i always saw people gush about dai or dao but rarely did i see people talk about da2, and after playing the game myself i found myself not knowing how to move on from the experience that was playing da2. i have never felt a game be more human and connect with me personally as much as da2 did. the characters, especially hawke felt so, so real. i'll forever be grateful to the people who worked on this game and who put so much of their heart into the characters, their stories and kirkwall. da2 felt like a giant hug, albeit the hurt and pain you go through as hawke. getting on the game always feels like returning to family. thank you so much!
That personal impact was part of what caused the issues at launch.
Its smaller and quieter than DAO.
But, I would argue, it is the most purely DA
Wow, thank you for this. It was amazingly comprehensive. I totally agree that EA doesn't know how market these games. I never hated DA2, but it was apparent that it was rushed. My husband hated that he felt like he couldn't control or steer what was happening, though, he wanted to be a hero but the end made him feel helpless. I found that kind of story telling interesting, but I can see how it wasn't for everyone.
Hawke is definitely a REACTIVE hero not a proactive one.
That isn't typical.
That's exactly what I love so much about the game. In fantasy whether it's fiction or RPGs, you're usually the powerful hero who saves the world. In DA2 you're just some guy who's trying to keep his life together and his family and friends safe. And in the end you fail at both. Spectacularly.
I wish we'd see more stories like DA2 in gaming, but unfortunately a lot of gamers want the wish-fulfillment power fantasy.
I'ma be honest Dragon Age Exodus is such a cool title. Not only dose it work for the story. It also gives biblical vibes in a good way. I just love it!
Wishes and fishes...
It's fascinating to hear that the reuse of Kirkwall and DA2's time-based storytelling over area-based storytelling was born out of time constraints placed on the game's development, because it's one of the things I really like about the way the game tells its story. The world, and the characters and companions, can change and develop in ways, amounts and along paths that most RPGs don't have the time-pass scope to make realistic or believable - and in many cases the game *does* use this to its advantage when telling stories with characters like Aveline and Isabella. It also allows the player a much greater opportunity to actually see their choices bare out in ways that don't feel contrived or forced, because the expanding timeline means things you did as long as multiple years ago have time to "simmer", and it never really feels like the game is showing you scenes simply as flags to show you "yes, that choice you made during Act 1 mattered!", even if realistically the ramifications of that choice might not come into play during the timeline a typical RPG takes place during. Wide but shallow games have their own appeal, of course, but I really enjoyed the more "narrow but deep" experience that DA2 gave us - in fact, it has always been my favourite of the three Dragon Age games, even before Inquisition came out (which at the time was an opinion that would have been near-heretical to hold).
The time jumps open up reactivity that other games don’t have
@@MarkDarrah for sure, I honestly think that's one of the game's greatest strengths (and that a lot of RPGs actually have too *little* reactivity in a lot of cases, though of course baking more of that that in leads to inflated costs, dev time, etc in almost all cases). I forgot to mention in my original comment but I was also a big fan of the rivalry/friendship system with the companions and how it changed the tones of your interactions with them rather then them just up and leaving or fighting you if you did too many things that dropped down a specific bar (while still retaining some sensible "breaking point" moments) - and how rivalry romances essentially doubled the amount of romance options in the game while still working with the same amount of base companions. Just wondering if you had any quick thoughts to share on that aspect of the game at all?
It's the only game where it truly feels like your followers have a life and relationships of their own. They make decisions regardless of your wishes and influence, they grow and change through the support of each other rather than you.
The same goes for the world and setting. Things develop regardless of what you do. This I felt is DAO's biggest weakness where not just the blight but every crisis in the world will sit and wait for you to get around to fixing it.
Dragon Age: Exodus!
Good timing, looks like next dragon age will have a name, Dreadwolf, nice they didn't go with "Dragon Age 4" haha
Always loved that title, that's how the shortcut has been saved on my desktop for a decade now!
That's what my modded PC copy says!
I can't imagine how hard you had to work to create such an amazing game in such a short time. DA2 has a very special place in my heart. It's the only game that made me feel such intense emotions. I cried when Leandra died, I felt furious at Anders and it felt very good to kill him. The accomplishment and pride that I felt when templars kneeled before Hawke after defeating Meredith is a moment I will never forget .
Just wanted to say thank you for creating such an amazing game in a very difficult situation. I am glad that more people now appreciate what you and your team had accomplished.
Thank you for watching!
Sorry for the additional comment; I'm playing DA2 right now, and just wanted to call out a feature I particularly enjoy. When you open the quest log/journal, there's a section up top of "Rumours", like "coming soon" attractions for later quests that update over time (and eventually become actual side / main quests). The rumours all originate from Varric, which feels super natural and believable considering Varric is a rumour-monger, and would obviously let Hawke know what's going on in the city (I'm in the first act now, and it's double cool since Varric would pass this information along to you to fund the expedition). Just a really neat detail.
I totally forgot about this!
So cool to hear your perspective and memories of the creation of this game. From the very first time I played it, to now, it remains my favourite of the dragon age games, despite its obvious shortcomings. Hawkes tragic and triumphant tale told in three acts feels so much more personal and emotional than the other games. The characters writing is insanely good, and the relationships you build with them and the way these friendships, rivalries, and more intimate relationships progress and change over the in game years and events, just feels incredible. Every time I replay through the series, DA2 is still the one I am most excited to come back to, despite the fact I love them all. I am so grateful to the BioWare team for giving us this game, it’s meant so very much to me over the years.
It does so many different things from a storytelling perspective
Dragon Age 2 is my favourite Dragon Age game. The characters and the storey got to me more because it was shorter with less faffing around. It had it's flaws, but they never bothered me as much as some people. This was a really interesting video because of how you described the pros and negatives of the constraints you were under and how it both helped and hurt the game.
It is the most concentrated narrative for sure
I enjoy these deep dives into the development history of one of my favorite series. (As it so happens, I enjoy the more intimate atmosphere of Kirkwall and DA2/Exodus is in my top 10 because of it 😅)
Glad to hear it!
DA2 is by far my favourite Bioware game of all time. My favourite game of all time and it is exactly for the reason you said. The focus on characters. I loved Carver, Bethany, Merril, Isabella, Anders, Varric, Fenris and Sebastian. All of them felt alive and real especially with the banter where they talk about each other and have so much to say. Just hearing the how much Merril loves Hawke is so cool. I have said this before but I really thank you guys for making such an amazing game that I have loved ever since I played. Thank you so much to you and the wonderful people working on the game♥️
Having just replayed the start, I'm amazed that we make you care about the 2 characters who die so early.
@@MarkDarrah I was so shocked the first time and the second time when you guys took the sibling away I was just devastated and really felt the pain Hawke was going threw. To me I just felt so hopeless that no other RPG did before. Was really good.
I enjoy and enjoy Dragon Age II, I like the concept of a protagonist who is "hero by obligation and not by choice" that was present in Origins but here is much better worked in my opinion, also noted that it’s touch of dark fantasy is much better achieved than in Inquisition (is one of my few complaints with it, along with the Hinterlands and some sidequests that felt much like errand missions except in rare cases), I also appreciate how it created many of the bases of the lore of the saga for later games.
It seems to me a more personal story that is enhanced by a set of companions that feels much more organic and alive than the ones you have in Origins, the change of the rivalry system by the previous one of affection (that was broken with the gifts was a success) because it made you feel to know and interact with the characters not only as a game mechanic, nor as a necessity of the story, but as something interesting that really contributed much to the experience and the storytelling of the game itself.
On the other hand I also liked that the story was more focused, yes of course it “sin” of the recycling of scenarios but it is understood due to the short development time. I think that one more year would have been great for this game.
Many people didn't like the fact that it was a bit far from being a dark reinterpretation of Tolkenian fantasy, but personally I didn't dislike that, I think that in this game the saga found its identity which was even more affirmed in Inquisition, although the almost total lack of dark fantasy elements/atmosphere in this last one is one of the few flaws of the third game for me.
Personally, the ending left me astonished and dismayed in equal parts, because I could not understand how after such a personal development and how the plot was escalating to an epic level, everything I did with Hawk did not change the course of events (beyond small things), which humanized the character and left you wanting to know how he would solve it i in a sequel (if he can find a solution) and what consequences would bring to the world of Thedas. In other words, it made you see this "hero by obligation" not as a chosen one, but as a common human trapped in events whose scale of repercussions went beyond what he could foresee and solve. After that ending I felt and saw again in the game the spark of inspiration in Tolkien (that Origins transmitted better through its setting and atmosphere) because I remembered immediately how Gandalf told Frodo who anyone can change the world, only that here was given a dark and hopeless twist to that concept.
In sum and in synthesis for DAII seeing it in retrospective is like an unpolished jewel that shines once you know the history of its development and recognize how it influenced the current events of the saga (without forgetting its contributions to the lore) thanks to a great and very personal storytelling.
Thanks for your great videos and greetings from Uruguay 🇺🇾, english is not my first language so sorry if the are some errors in my comment.
Pd.: I still play DAII once or twice a year and still love it as much as I did when I first played it in 2012 at the age of 21.
“It doesn’t always work out” is a lot to ask from someone playing a game where they are the hero
The characters! I think you've helped me put my finger on why Dragon Age II is sincerely my favorite (not just out of fashion). I play games primarily as a narrative experience. It's the *characters* and their dynamics and relationships that make a story for me. That's also why I disliked just how much of a blank slate the Inquisitor was - they didn't feel like a real *character* in the same way the others did. Ironically the Warden, despite being a silent protagonist, had more (optional) personality and felt more grounded in the world (due to your chosen backstory tying into the main plot). Hawke, however, remains my absolute favorite DA protagonist and I'd dearly love it if future games would take Hawke as a model. Hawke is, despite your ability to customize her/him, a *person* - A real character with a family, an arc, personal tragedies. Your backstory isn't just some random text blurb incidental to the plot - it's the *key driving force* of the plot, and your loved ones (and their eventual fates) are a big part of your journey. I still haven't found another RPG that does that quite so well.
Hawke cones with the most personality for sure
@@MarkDarrah And family, and personal stakes! Hawke feels the most "real" to me. I personally feel the way the Inquisitor was handled was a misstep. A blank slate character works for games like the Elder Scrolls. It doesn't work for a character-driven experience like Dragon Age. I find myself hoping that the protagonist of Dreadwolf, even if they aren't like Hawke, are at least closer to the Warden than they are to the Inquisitor.
I only played it for the first time in the last few years, and surprisingly enjoyed the (extreme) asset reuse. Reminded me of a stage play, where you need to bring some suspension of disbelief as an audience member, and the stage lets you focus more on the characters and situation than on the environment. Plus it didn't hurt to imagine that they all felt the same to Varric hah.
We could have leaned into "Varric has negative stone-sense" and made it a thing.
@@MarkDarrah pretty sure you did made it a thing...
@@blazypika2 yes, but not in time…
You talking about DA II having a really punchy opening reminded me of why I bought it in the first place, the demo! That intro made a PERFECT demo. Great showcase of what this game was all about.
Very true.
Both the good and some of the bad.
Same I played the demo for 2 before I touched the first game. So then I got both and Awakening. So I could get the whole story
Thank you for this awesome hour of content! :> have a nice day
Thank you so much!
Thanks for this video, extremely enlightening. I agree with you that DA: Exodus is a much stronger title, and I think could have avoided some issues I initially had with the game. I haven’t watched TV or exposed myself to mass marketing in at least 15 years, so my first impression of DA2 was, whoa, what’s this demo for a sequel?? There’s a sequel??? Cool!! I was very confused from the outset of, “who are these people? Where’s my warden? Where’s Morrigan? THAT’S Flemeth??” I felt like I must have missed another game or DLC pack or something. I did end up liking the game for the same reasons as you (characters, distinctive art design, and I loved my Hawke), but I had several years of getting to that point. I do agree that the constraints you faced likely contributed to a better game. Even though the environments were limited, the game had excellent variations in style and tone for missions. Yes, I’m going to the coast again, but it’s for a hilarious “date” for Aveline. Yes, I’m in the warehouse again, but it’s the backdrop for a really cool “renegade” dialogue for my Rogue Hawke. I think your team did great work, and I’m happy DA2 is remembered more fondly now. It’s making me want to play again :)
It found its audience. Eventually
It's so cool that you have a channel and you talk about game development. I just love hearing about the behind-the-scenes stuff with video games. When I was in elementary school I had just finished DAO in preparation for DA2. When I finally got a copy of DA2 and finished it I was disappointed. I didn't like that it wasn't a sprawling adventure across Fereldan, the combat wasn't as tactical, and Hawke wasn't able to stop the start of the Mage-Templar war and be an incredible hero like the The Warden. I dropped the game and never picked it up until winter break of my freshmen year of college. I had my copy of DA2 at my parent's house and decieded that I'll give it another chance.
At that point I considered myself a RPG veteran. I had played almost every RPG and during my return to DA2 I found that it was a breath of fresh air. All the things I hated when I was younger I loved now. I loved that instead of a story that took you across an entire nation we were stuck in Kirkwall, a city with so much character, history, and darkness. Even though I missed the tactical, slower combat of DAO I understood why the combat was fast paced. Varric is a writer and he wants to keep his audience captivated so of course the fighting would seem flashy and go at breakneck speed. Hawke is one of my favorite protagonist in fiction. Although they are not as customizable as say The Warden, I really connected with them and felt myself in their shoes. Hawke (while they are super badass) is just a regular person. They want to take care of their family, and shot the shit with their friends just like anyone else. Hawke wasn't trying to save the day, they were just the right person at the wrong place. In fiction, especially in RPGs, the hero is the chosen one, they save the day and get the girl, but not in this story.
I do wish that ACT II was a bit longer. I think the Arishok was a great villian. I know that you were only the project director on DA2, but was the contrast between a snarky Hawke and the Arishok purposeful? The Arishok, to me, felt like an antithesis to snarky Hawke. I don't know if you guys did it on purpose or if I'm just reading too much into it.
Intentional to some degree for sure
It's refreshing to hear Mark Darrah talk about Dragon Age and the development cycle of the games more freely. I love your memory videos. Even though I liked Dragon Age II when it was released, I love it even more knowing the context of what the game was meant to be originally, and also after reading the Dragon Age novels as well. And I completely agree; Dragon Age: Exodus would have been a much better title for the game.
Maybe they can fix the name in a remaster…
@@MarkDarrah Possibly. You never know.
Sorry one more, THIRD comment on this video! I'm at the start of Act 3 in my playthrough and I'm embarrassed that I never noticed how many tucked away details there are in the game. I love that there's no quest objective to go back and talk to the Arishok after Qunari-based missions; there's no objective to visit the Chantry after the fiasco with Varnell and Petrice. There's no OBJECTIVE to do these things, they're just fun little rewards for taking a chance and talking to someone, for taking your time while playing instead of bull rushing the content. DAI is coming up for me soon, but I'm heartily tempted to play DA2 again first ;) You all did great work and glad you're getting recognized for it now.
Thank you!
It is definitely all about the characters in Bioware games, and ultimately that's why DAII it's in the running for my favorite Dragon Age game (all of them are my favorite in different ways, of course, but DAII kind of feels like the most quintessentially "Bioware" of them). Its smaller scope (and the focus on time instead of space) really puts that spotlight on the characters in a way that the other games don't necessarily, at least to an outside observer. It's something that's true of most/all Bioware games, but Dragon Age II is sort of a stripped down experience focusing on Bioware's greatest strength (which is a super smart decision for a game under this much constraints IMO). This lets the character writing shine so much more (and I've loved DAII since the early days specifically because of the characters, even if the chronically old lady in me had gripes about some changes relative to Origins in terms of systems and style).
The one area it really stumbled for me was the combat, but honestly, over time I've come to appreciate a lot of its aspect. It's kind of the smoothest combat in a Dragon Age game, IMO: not as complex as DAO's in terms of character options and builds but with better game feel than Inquisition's. Like you point out the extreme asymmetry hurts it, and I was glad to see Inquisition move more toward the middle between symmetry/asymmetry (even if I actually prefer a more symmetric approach despite all of its problems). The middle ground is usually good for that kind of thing.
I do have a soft spot for the Dragon Age: Exodus title and if we ever do see some kind of remaster/legendary edition for DAO/DAII (unlikely but a girl can dream!), I kind of hope they restore that title, at the very least, so that it feels like it fits in better with the other games.
Also, I just wanna say: thanks so much for talking about these games like this! I'm not in the industry but I think about game design a lot even so, and I really like getting dev perspectives on my favorite games in particular.
DA2 jettisoned everything that wasn't genetically BioWare under pressure.
That's why it is so revealing as to reality in retrospect
so interesting. Dragon Age 2 definitely had me for its characters, like most people I suppose, but also because of how different the story is from other RPGs. It’s a tragedy. And it’s decisively DARK fantasy. The story isn’t so much a thing of glory and being the chosen hero that’s the strongest of all, it’s so much more about resilience and struggle and tragedy. and it works bc there’s so much focus invested in the characters and their relations, not to mention your character’s family. All that coupled with the dark magic and dark fantasy aspects, the miserable and heavy atmosphere of kirkwall, and down to the darker art style. I think that makes it even more emotionally impactful, and in a way makes the writing stronger. The way I see dragon age 2 is just the emo child of the dragon age family haha
For sure. The tragedy part is what turns some people off
Thank you for this video, Mark! DA2/Exodus is definitely my favorite of the series, because despite many of the flaws that you and others have pointed out, it's strengths are what make it. The characters and their relationships are some of the best in the franchise, and the narrative, while suffering some pacing issues sure, is really rich and solid. And while many may prefer the player-insert protag like the Warden and Inquisitor, my favorite will always be Hawke because they do have such a solid background and identity to work with. Also, the voice acting? Perfection.
I could go on, as it is my favorite, but I'll stop now and thank you again for sharing this video!
So glad you enjoy it
I loved the story of DA2, we were a refugee trying to make a living in a foreign city. It was such a refreshing concept after saving universe in other rpgs billionth time. Shame it wasn't given enough time and released in the state it was. Gameplay wise I didn't like that DA2 took more action heavy stance and leave rpg elements behind (especially bummed about spell combos and diverse spellbook in DAO was left out)
There is a lot to offer in there.
Just for everyone who's considering playing/replaying the game, somebody over at the nexus released an incredible, 100% working tactical camera mod for DA2 a couple of months ago. As a fan of the tac-cam play style, it absolutely enhanced the game for me personally. Thanks for the video Mark, fascinating insights.
Interesting about Tac Cam.
The discussion of how combat works in DA2 in comparison to the other games was really fascinating! Especially with the note that Inquisition was a middle of the road fusion between DA2 and DA:O in that respect. I've always enjoyed DA2 combat the most because it feels the most bombastic and dramatic and fun (especially combined with the distinctive animations that make rogues and warriors feel just as exciting as mages). My second favorite is DA:O, because despite the combat not feeling as dynamic, it often creates the feeling that I'm fighting against an enemy party with the same capabilities as mine (what I'm now recognizing as "enemy symmetry"). However, DA:I combat has always been utterly uninteresting to me for reasons I could never fully put my finger on. I'm wondering now if my issue is that it's in the middle of these two approaches without fully embracing either.
While perfect symmetry (DAO) is a pain to balance, it gives an understandability that otherwise is hard to get
Regarding the ending, it actually never bothered me too much that both paths were similar. From your comments, not sure it was intended, but I took it as a thematically-appropriate indication that a single individual cannot prevent a war :) I do think though that the game requires Hawke to remain neutral-ish for too long.
Yeah, fair
I forgot how I always thought that section of the cave shown 30:42 was Mexico-shaped. That probably didn't help with not associating it as reused. Haha, it's been so many years.
Glad you enjoyed it!
The 'peelable scope' discussion reminds me of The Hinterlands which you could unpeel endlessly and never leave.
We will talk hinterlands when we do DAI
I was really young at this time, it's so cool to hear the details. I remember when EA bought bioware and I was worried for mass effect, and hoping for a SP KOTOR. I didn't own a PC so I never played origins, and I don't remember hearing about dragon age at all. Until like, a year ago and I feel like you guys found a wonderful stride in companions and party. Nobody does it better than bioware right now, that's facts. Y'all have always lead the way with characters, banter, their backstory etc. It makes it really fun to make decisions and have your companions react. I can see how there would be backlash about it being called DA2 implying it's a direct successor. At the end of the day we've learned a lot, I don't think I've been someone to pressure devs to rush games but I think especially after CP2077 (which I actually liked on release) everyone seems to be more relaxed on things. I just wonder if you would've had more time and support if it was made during these times.
I pushed for a SP version of SWTOR back in 2011 or so.
There are multiple KOToRs in there
I saw something in one of groups I'm in that had the perfect way of looking at the cave reuse: Varric is telling the story to Cass, and he makes clear he hates caves. So the cave reuse can be explained by the idea that Varric is kinda saying here, "Seen one cave, you've seen them all." I like this headcanon!
We actually did that.
In one of the DLCs Varric has that line.
We should have thought of it earlier
it's one thing to have that as a story idea, it's quite another to make the player keep going through it
Thank you so much for this incredibly detailed breakdown! 😄
I'm proud/relieved to say when I decided to play through Dragon Age a few years after DAI released, the completionist in me refused to skip DA2 (despite having been encouraged to do so). I can honestly say the reused assets had next to no impact on my overall enjoyment. As you said, the things that really mattered were still there! It's not perfect, but I think it's the most replayable because the combat is less grueling than DAO could be (even with the extra waves), and the side quests all feel super embedded in the prevailing atmosphere of Kirkwall (unlike DAI).
Admittedly I did have a mod to skip Orsino's fight at the end, though I didn't know the context for *why* until I got to the end. Definitely had an effect on my feelings regarding the way the story concluded, but only for the better! I'm really really glad the game has had a renaissance of popularity.
I think it does appeal to a lot of players who didn’t give it a go in the first place due to the negative buzz
Watched this video before playing Dragon Age: Exodus. I beat the game a few days ago and I feel it’s a testament to the resiliency and adaptability of your team. Thank you!
Thank you
I'm very glad that more people are coming around to giving DA2 the credit it deserves. There's nothing quite like it in gaming. A fantasy ROG that isn't about savibg the world.
It may not have as much variety to offer as DAO, but it will always be my favourite game in the series for the depth of the story and the characters. The smaller scale is a benefit. The combat is fantastic too.
Thank you!
DA 2 has THE BEST character of all DA games. Hawke and that character's story is one of the best examples of one of the best written characters (and protagonist's story) ever in gaming. Incredible character study.
I think the time jumps help. Growth is more possible / plausible
@@MarkDarrah OMG I got 2 replies from you today! YAY!!!!!!
Wait...you mean people didn't realize the real prize of a Bioware game is the characters? That is the primary reason I love Bioware games, is for the characters and their interactions and stories.
I think people knew on some level but either it was too obvious or something else,
In any case it wasn’t said out loud
Loved to hear your thoughts and memories of this! I actually really like DA2 because I feel it has the best writing in terms of character. The same-cave syndrome was quite grating, though, especially in subsequent playthroughs, so I definitely agree that you can't just reuse something that is so recognizable. I will say that while I mostly liked the art direction of DA2, I thought the UI was way too modern-looking and took away from the fantasy of the game. DA:I somewhat fixes this, but imo it still looks way too modern for the kind of vibe I feel like it's going for.
Fantasy UI is a trick.
Too fantasy and it becomes unreadable
Too modern and you have Holographic HUDs
"Akira Kurosawa in the Norther Renaissance" explains so much of why I love the style of DA2 over the other games. The style of DA2 carries over into DAI and really helped set it apart.
Look like SOMETHING! Is missing from the direction of a surprising number of games
Love love love that more Dragon Age fans and people in general are realizing that DA Exodus (DA2) is a really great game. Seeing your great DA2 video and actually thinking about my DA2 experience I finally realized that DAO isn't my favorite game ever. My favorite game of all time is both DA2 and DAO. Just that DA2 experiments outside the normal power fantasy trope makes DA2 feel almost unique and amazing. Hawke's story arc feels more like an invictus hero. I get how Varic reacts in DAI if Hawke dies and it breaks me ... a game breaks me to the floor. I stand corrected in this moment I acknowledge DA Exodus is my favorite game of all time ... although yeah fixing Orsino would definitely make it even better. Thanks.
Yeah there are fixes that could be made
Dragon Age 2 was a masterpiece. Considering the conditions levied upon it's development and schedule, that we got WHAT we got is an actual miracle. An absolute miracle. And a testament to the boots on the ground people who made it.
It is a miracle. You can see the game that might have been. And sometimes that is enough
I didn't mind the whole Hawke female and male, with warrior, rogue and mage roles. I actually enjoyed it. I had fun with the wheel. I didn't mind the environment reuse. But I was like, this could of been done better. They could of made at least two, but I didn't think it was that bad behind the scene.
It could have been done better.
With more time
The video I always wanted! Thanks for this. I remember certain story beats and character arcs really resonating with me in ways few other games had. The game transpiring over some years seemed really unique to me as well. Really got me invested in the characters of Kirkwall--moreso than, say, the Inquisitor and company. Still really love them, but DA2 hits different.
Glad you enjoyed it!
My favorite DA. Great job, man.
Thank you!
I remember arguing when the game was new that DA2's reputation would improve in sort of the way Legend of Zelda Majora's Mask's did, where there was an immediate sense of betrayed expectations but that people came to understand the unique things it was good at. DA2 is still my favorite because it's such a tight focused experience and I appreciate the character focus that can only express that way in a time based narrative. It's a unique game that never would have happened in any other way. It's a fascinating example of constrained design in a genre where going big or the appearance of it is the norm.
Majora's mask is an interesting comparison. And the comparison is certainly apt.
I had basically quit what passed for social media by that point for unrelated reasons and missed the hub bub. Da2 was and is one of my favorite games and I still replay it every couple years, just like it's "bigger" siblings. Edit: I would add that it is essentially a gothic romance story, which was perfect as crafted for Cass.
Totally. DA2 is the one that ultimately will show the way
Haha, the cup size joke brings back memories, because I totally fell for it. IIRC, there was an early demo that didn't reveal the joke, and I was totally furious about Bethany's huge assets and thought "is that Bioware under EA now, oversexualizising everything?" (given that it was also already known how Isabella looked). I was really vocal about that too... so when the joke was revealed it might've still been a juvenile one, but hats off to you for forcing me to delete a blog post and a few forum posts. XD
I'd say it would still be okay today, juvenile narrators haven't died out yet and the joke's on them, not the subject. :D
I remember that backlash.
@@MarkDarrah Yeah, it was a combination of everything, not the character design alone. People (me included) were looking for every proof EA would be the whip-cracking downfall of Bioware, and DA2 was full of them - from developing time over redesign to the "amazing button". My view on DA2 has changed over the years, but it's still not my favorite, mainly for stylistic reasons - the redesign, while I see your point in the necessity, was just not my cup of tea (the "blocky/spiky" artstyle), and I think both style and the writing caters to a younger audience, every party member must be over the top "badass" right in their introduction. Sexualization wasn't my main complaint, just a part of that whole impression.
DAII is one of my favorite games! I love the focus on the characters and I loved all of the characters. I really loved the new approach to the friendship meter. The voice acting was amazing and the story was well executed. I’m not blinded to its flaws - I know the stages were reused a lot, but it doesn’t bother me that much even though it would have been nice to see more visible changes in the city through time. My personal rationalization for it is that the game is a play and they are reusing props on the stage. I did the same justification for DA:O which I also love.
As a side note - I don’t think Bethany’s cup size change was a mistake. I thought it was hilarious when I noticed it and it really underscored that this was a story that Varic was telling rather than an historic event. He was building a myth and he exaggerated.
I think we could have sold the Varric as narrator even stronger
I love these memory videos. I've said a couple of times on twitter (sorry), but I hated DA2 when I played for the first time around 2013, but I replayed it in 2020 mostly because now I knew the context of production and most importantly I'd seen someone say DA2 (and the series overall) was full of references to real life issues and that made me want to replay it, and now i say DA2 is a great game, an 8 out of 10 for reference as opposed to a 5. Also for reference, I give Inquisition 9 and Origins 10.
That is fair.
I think we could have helped you have a better initial reaction to the game
I actually loved DA2 it turned out to be one of my favorite games of all time. I loved the combat, the companions, and I wished we could have had a pirate type DLC featuring Isabella with sailing, maybe ship to ship combat backgrounds, pillage, treasure hunts, etc... just really liked the relationship with Isabella wished we could have had a really good DLC with her story in it.
It has turned into many people's favourite.
Loved DA2 but I think DAI fucked up hard handling Hawke and their love interest (besides Isabela). Wish DA2 had 1 more year worth of development, or seeing what the Exalted March DLC would have been. Siding with the Templars, I would have preferred not to fight Meredith, I don't think it's fair to play narrative favorites when both groups have been shown to be demonstrably awful, or incompetent, or some combination of the two
Exalted March echoes in DAI.
When playing DA2 I admit I had trouble getting invested in Hawke’s journey. It was the same with MEA.
However, what makes me more likely to play DA2 again is exactly because I got so invested in the relationships Hawke develops with their companions. Like, if I leave Hawke in the fade in DAI, the reason I’m sad is because it makes Varric sad.
DA2 is definitely follower driven
Sorry Stroud, I could never leave Hawke
@@DarthDaineseyeah when is stroud is easy to leave him but when it's Alistair it becomes much hard to decide who to leave 🥲 you either break Varric's heart or the Warden's heart
I have to say, I've been a fan of all these games since Origins launched, played them more than any other game series besides Kingdom Hearts, watch lore videos and things like that...and I never noticed the people in the wings of the DA2 dragon negative space, 😅. Question: You mentioned time skips and that first act shrinking, what was the thinking behind mercenaries or smugglers before Act 1? Was that cut down for scope purposes or was it always a small decision to just get you into the city? Always wondered about that, it felt out of place.
It got cut.
There were some missions planned
@@MarkDarrah A shame, but even still, I love DA2, always thought the criticism of the game was overblown...except the caves. Thanks for the video and your insight, Mr. Darrah.
My favorite Dragon Age game, from a pure enjoyment basis. It's short compared to the other DA games, a big plus, and the story is tight and impactful. Hawke is extremely relatable (purple/direct Hawke forever, lol). I honestly love this game. It's almost like a visual novel of one of Varric's books, so obviously that means heavy combat mechanics.
Length is such a double edged sword.
Beyond a point, you are just exhausting certain players
For what it's worth, I *loved* Dragon Age 2, and I still do. I've saved the universe so many times in video games that the smaller, personal scope of DA2 felt really different and refreshing. It felt really great to just follow this one person through the different chapters of their live, and help them make a living, take care of their family, and make friends.
It is a refreshing departure.
Also, in addition I'll add, DA2 has the best combat. Hands down. (Still dont like waves of enemies, but see "constraints" and this is a minor thing). It's still the best combat in the DA series IMO.
Interesting
This is really insightful, thank you for sharing. For what it's worth, I absolutely loved DA2. I hold all three DA games at an equal score; they each have things I love and some things I dislike. With DA2, I found the strongest aspects to be the story, atmosphere and new art style; all were so well executed. Yeah, the worst parts are the ones that are clearly rushed, and that's unfortunate, but the good parts are so so good. Also, I know everyone loves customizing characters, but damn I actually really like how streamlined everything was in DA2. I'm trying to enjoy a story, not micromanage my inventory and armour for 8 different characters haha.
Anyway, thanks again for sharing this, I really enjoyed listening.
Glad you enjoyed it!
I think really short projects often end up being some of the most interesting results. Dragon Age 2 is honestly one of my favorite BioWare games ever, even though I can see how it's a relatively narrower package than Origins in a lot of "Player-friendly" aspects. Less classes, less roleplaying options, streamlined mechanics, narrow world-scope, yet it feels so dense. DA:O has a lot of intricate moments with NPCs to talk to and cool quests, but it is also broad strokes across a 3-act epic, but Dragon Age 2 is more like this TV show in a world that explores each little moment. You don't just arrive at a point where something has happened and "go stop it", you trace every step taken by different characters, and you remember different names across many hours of plot, as the story slowly turns into a true chain of events. Within that, there was so much roleplaying to do in the dialogue-system, and party conversations, that it engrossed me big time.
I often feel like smaller projects, although they typically were like a crunch-nightmare, have the benefit of not looking back. On really long projects you often see signs of, in the final product, that the developers reached a point where they started second guessing which direction they were taking, and pivoted the design, or started to adapt to new Industry-trends late in development. For games like Zelda, Majora's Mask, and this game, it's like lightning in a bottle, where it's just one level of speed and "GO". And the developers don't really realize what they've put together until their audience does. While first-drafts of writing are often rough, I find that it has intent. DA2 feels very raw because nobody had the proper time to fully review everything and go in and change it 15 times to make it perfect, so I imagine a lot of the designers were just on one train of thought and moving forward, and anything that didn't work was removed pretty early, because you know you couldn't spend the time on making it good. So instead, there's a lot of direct feedback of executing on concepts, and landing whatever has a good result, and packing the game with gut-feelings.
I'm sure there was also a lot of adjustments in that short development cycle and that the script we see is not just a first-draft, but DA2 feels like it benefited from that unedited first-instinct. It only has what the train of thought was in its time frame, and it doesn't have lots of extras or variations upon itself, but it has a total focus on just this one kind of story, the city level and surroundings, and painstakingly following the cast and familiar NPCs in a linear thread. There's no sense of bloating which I feel that very long projects often end up having.
If you have to go with your 1st draft, there is no time to sand off the edges.
Sometimes those edges are amazing things that can only exist because there wasn't time to second guess.
I was one of the people who was immediately disappointed by DA2 - to the point where I didn't buy any of the DLC for years, and never replayed it until the DLC were all released - and then grew much more fond of it after a significant amount of time. I think it may not have been until my "prep" replay of DAO and DA2 anticipating DAI that I realized it was a *much* better game than I remember. Your team deserves a lot of credit for what they accomplished, and I hope they know that despite how the game was received at launch. DA2 is a game about relationships, when I was expecting a game about the noble art of murder-hoboing (which makes sense, because Hawke has a HOUSE! They are canonically NOT a hobo, murder notwithstanding!). And a game about relationships is actually really cool and good, but it took me getting over my disappointment about what I thought I wanted to see that. And almost the entire reason I did is because I knew regardless of everything that happened, there would be plot and story elements from DA2 that would affect DAI. The fact that these games have story and lore so important that it's worth playing through a game I didn't remember even enjoying says a lot about the quality of the series overall, I think, especially with regard to the writing.
I will say, I think EA/Bioware's marketing has improved significantly. Admittedly extremely little has been released regarding Dragon Age: DreadWolf, but what *has* been released is laser-targeted at "treehouse people." Tiny tidbits that mean less than nothing to non-fans or even a lot of casual fans have been ravenously and eagerly devoured by enthusiasts who pore over every detail and pull out awesome stuff to get hyped over (yes, I did watch Ghil Dirthalen's video about the title drop right before watching this). No telling if DreadWolf itself is going to be mind blowing or disappointing, but the marketing has learned to do a lot with a little. Here's hoping the dev team is getting the support they need to make something great out of it.
Yes marketing is much more aware that it can’t take the core for granted
I actually quite enjoyed DA2 when it first came out, although this was around the time when I cared too much about achievements and ended up burning myself out on the game by the end of it. That said I still liked the game overall despite the flaws, in fact it was this game that I showed my dad to convince him that the series was worth his time and now the Dragon Age series is his favorite game series of all time, with DA2 still as his favorite of the three. He's also been clamoring for Dreadwolf lol.
Your dad is not alone with DA2 being the favorite
I remember hating Dragon Age 2 on release for many of the reasons harped upon by the fans and players. Back then as a college student studying digital media and wanting to get into the games industry, I was super critical of it. Now that I'm actually an MMO dev and have worked on AAA games, reexamining this game and watching this video has given me a very fresh perspective of things. The characters were definitely the highlight of the game, and I actually liked the combat changes over DA:Origins and still think it's better than DA:Inquisition. You're right about how EA markets sports games versus other genres, and I say this having been a game designer at EA Tiburon on NBA Live. The ol' college student in me who played this game back then still blames EA for what happened with DA "Exodus" and Mass Effect 3 though, and I admit it's extremely hard to shake that off.
Thanks for making these videos and reminiscing, I look forward to watching more!
DA2 definitely benefits from perspective
Awesome video, i like the insight on the game's development, i would very much like this type of lengthy videos from time to time, it's 1 hour long in which you do not repeat yourself and talk only interesting and informative, quality
In my opinion the game is a classic, a good game i enjoyed the combat, the story, the voice acting was top, the world, the feel of it, the deep roads part was my favorite, the only thing that became tedious by the end a little was coming back and back again to the same areas and dungeons but now i can understand why it had to be like that.
Also personally i liked the ending that way having to fight both Orsino and Meredith despite the side you chose to stand with, i am tired of the black and white narrative instead of gray or left and right instead of middle. Both had flaws and both had wrongs and both had some truths
Thank you for the video. You are the best!
I've heard this argument before so I have to give it weight.
But for me the PRO-mage ending feels like it does so much to undermine the mage side.
With the Templar side, it falls on Merideth.
With the Mages, all the mages seem to turn.
DA2 is my favourite game of all time. Not just my favourite DA game or favourite Bioware game or favourite RPG. favourite. game. period.
I've always argued that the asset reuse was itself a result of Varric being the framing storyteller.
"So, we went into this cave, and..."
"What did the cave look?"
"I don't know. It's a CAVE, seeker. Who cares? the important thing is..."
That said, what are your thoughts on how, say, City of Heroes handled instances, with modular tilesets that could be mixed and matched to procedurally combined to create a floorplan that is, if not unique, at least a bit fresher than just the same thing over and over. (I admit by the time I got done playing that game, I could recognise the tiles a soon as I crossed into them, and say "Ok, when we turn this corner, it will open into a room and therew will be bad guys here, here and here.". But ti took a long time for me to really have that intuitive knowledge, and aI still wouldn't know what was on the other side of that tile until I got the junction point.)
I think a tile based system can work
Thanks for the video, it's very interesting getting to see how the game was formed, especially from the developers point of view :)
Glad you enjoyed it!
I loved each game for different reasons, but they each included me as part of great story.
Your team was, above all else, an epic band of storytellers. Mad respect.
Whatever happens, I look forward to the stories you'll continue to share. I sincerely hope your team finds their way back to one another to tell at least one more story -- even if that story isn't about Thedas.
A heartfelt thank you. 😊
Thank you!
I know DA2 was hard on all of you, with upper command, EA and fan demand. By no means is it easy to be a dev. I think despite all the problems DA2 came out very well. In the fan circles we made up an in world reason for all smaller scale locations. I liked the accent varrients between City elves and Dailish ect. ( i know a north and welsh accent when i hear it). I think the smaller scale giving the world a little more intimacy. Its amazing what you guys accomplished in 16 months. Its just sad that bio/EA took the company in the "Bioware Magic" route and put you all under unnecessary stress Continuously .
It was quite something
@@MarkDarrah sorry I'm an environmental dev sorry if I over stepped. 😅😖
@@shiechan not at all!
Thanks for the video, I really enjoy these deep dives into the development of these games and I am looking forward to the inquisition video. I would like to hear about how you plan as a team for future installments when you decide to make expansions/dlc´s like Legacy for DA2 and Trespasser for DAI.
Thanks!
Ohhh! You actually released it a day after the stream, didn't realize you were so speedy! DA2 is my favorite out of the whole series due to its story being different from the rest of generic fantasy save the world. I liked the combat changes after Origins to include more team combos, which IMO challenge the players to make a good team and get rewarded with it. My favorite aspect has to be the fact that Kirkwall is actually interconnected. There are different entrances, my favorite example has to be that when you go to the Docks from the Gallows, it drops you in a non-existent entrance, because hey you probably took a ship to get to the pier. It's like a bigger Orzammar for me, there is a map, and it's not like Denerim where in lore it's supposed to be a massive city, but you spend 90% of the game in the market district with only one gate to connect to the outside world. I played DAI before Origins so I don't remember much about Val Royeaux, but it is genuinely rare to have a fantasy city that is interconnected. Also, the DLCs are HIGHLY underrated, it shows what the rest of the game could have been like if it wasn't rushed. The puzzles and bosses were fun and challenging (why did the team spike the difficulty in the DLCs so much? I liked it, but it's still jarring), and no dungeon reuse!
The longer a team works on a game, the more difficult they tend the combats.
Dragon age 2 is not just my favorite dragon age game, but my favorite game of all time. Like in one of your replies, it has a very high concentration of certain things per gameplay time.
Hearing that what the BioWare recipe is has been found and is now deliberate makes me very excited for DAVE
Hope you enjoy it
Main reason it took me years before replaying DA2 for the first time - textures. Or more like general look of the game color- and texture-wise. Everything looks kinda... idk soapy? The whole game is done in 1 color palette of beige and brown and it's dismal. I understand when the city fallows this trend - it's supposed to be dismal, but when you go to the beach and everything is biege and brown again and then you look out over the sea and see a couple of dark soapy 2d sprites instead of any kind of vista.... the game honestly gives me cabin fever every time.
Guess, that's the dwarve's point of view.
Otherwise if you know that the game is very special in it's essence (not naming it da2 would do a lot of good, i see it now, when you said it) - the story and characters are good enough for me to replay it about 5 times by now.
Honestly, I think "the box" is what I love the most about the game. I mean the idea of this warrior-looking burly man turning around and using magic in the flashy combat style way is so unique here. I love the face they chose for the box, love the armor, love the choriography of the fight in the trailer, I love the shit out of how trailer transitions into the box cover. It's all Perfect. I don't think I ever so something quite like this anywhere else. I still rewatch this trailer from time to time and it gets me exited every. time. I noshit have the box cover as my pc wallpaper rn, after replaying da2 last time half a year ago. It's fucking epic.
All in all, every time I replay DA2, I keep dreaming someone would rework it and kinda... bring the game closer to the trailer. Add colors, textures, cave instances, make Hawk's lines and their delivery a bit less artificial he-he. The game of it's format has the potential to be absolutely epic.
It definitely leans hard into “grey and pointy”
Lol increasing the cups because it was varric's story "point of view" . I totally missed that, but i believe it's a smart way of putting it, i would not remove it at all but instead i would have go all in, like, giving the males bigger butts, and giving everybody sharper varric like chins, making the weapons bigger dramatic thunders in the back and so on lmao.
Great video, i enjoyed watching the 1 hour video with a cup of hot tea, nice listening to you, can't wait for the inquisition one
I think going all in would make it acceptable.
But the time was super tight and THIS is what we spent time on...
As much as DA2 was a big clusterfuck, it was also a fun game that I replayed a few times (and it has great DLC), and this video is making me itch to go back and replay it yet again.
Do it!
Great video! Also I wouldn't mind longer videos like this!
Great!
Dragon Age: Exodus has a very nice ring to it, indeed. I used to joke around with my friends that the game is called because there are exactly 2 Dragons to fight in it XD
You are absolutely correct about the cave being real problem about environment reuse. I haven't played DA2 in a while, but I am very sure that I remember all the locations inside the cave. The only thing I dislike about the game is that you cant customize your companions' armors and clothes.
The one thing I truly love about DA2 is how the skill trees were redesigned. They had a modernized feel, compared to the generic style of DAO. Personally, I have enjoyed DA2's combat more than the other two games in the series. DA2 is also a very good example of "nothing you do matters, no matter the choice you take," and it makes it very obvious from the beginning By that I mean, it doesn't hide behind the illusion of choices made by the players that lead to the illusion of ending types, which most people think of as the epitome of video game story telling.
-Was there any consideration for the original DAO sequel (Not DA2) to become an MMORPG of any kind?
-Was it always the plan to make the game more Human-centric by using Hawke and ignoring other races, for the player character (regardless of it being DA2 or the original expansion/sequel)?
"it doesn't hide behind the illusion of choices made by the players that lead to the illusion of ending types" spot on! whenever there's talk about "your choices don't matter" I wanna ask did they ever? endings and major story beats are always the same, no matter what kind of playthrough you do, everything else is just flavor
I don’t think an MMO was ever seriously discussed
DA2 is human only due to constraints. It wasn’t the intention all along
I appreciate your insight into the pros and cons of symmetrical design. I confess that, as a player, my preference leans more toward symmetry, but my interest is more in how it affects my overall perception of the game world and its inhabitants, which is to say, a good chunk of my immersion.
For me, when everyone is the same, regardless of whether they're allies, enemies, or my own character, it just feels more real, like we're all just people existing in this virtual fantasy space. In contrast, when there's a clear distinction in gameplay between playable characters and enemy characters that isn't reinforced by setting or narrative, it puts what I feel to be undue strain on my suspension of disbelief. It doesn't come close to ruining the experience, but it's something that generally grates on me.
I don't say this to be critical. I am, however, curious as to whether or not this concern ever came up during development, or if you have any thoughts on it now.
Perfect symmetry, perfectly executed is the best.
That’s just very very hard
This was my favorite game of the series even though it had its issues Hawke was a different kind of protagonist and the characters were great in general
It is arguably the most distilled form of DA
this whole thing about it being focused on the characters is exactly why i love it (and dragon age in general) so much. Like yes there are very important plots happening in all three games, but the characters being just as important is IT for me.
Is the world lives but the characters all die, was there a point?
@@MarkDarrah precisely. That’s why there certain things, choices that i never officially make no matter how different my playthroughs are. I want the characters to be in the workd one way or another
Man i was cool to hear the story of the game. I can understand why you are so proud of what you made, in so Little time. I remember when DA 2 came out i did not play it all the way through, in fact i don’t think i even got past act 1. I think at the time i did not like the combat, not because it was new or more action orientated, but because of the spawning in of enemy’s in combat. I rember that cased me so much frustration the i stopped playing the game.
I also notes the reuse of caves and the outside environment. I think a disagreed with you on why the cave did not work, for me it was because you when in caves so much that you notice, also it was big for me that the cave would sometimes be blocked by a door, that looked like you could open it due to the map. That and enemy spawning was often the same places made the cave feel repetitive.
I also think you were spot on the marketing, i know that i turned me off the game as well.
i played DA 2 years latter and i liked it a lot. i think you are right that the character i liked them a lot. Also i kind of liked the time skeeping, i think it worked out well in the Withcer 3 as well. There is something about seeing the world progress, and seeing the consekvences of your action play out in game that is cool.
I hope that DA 2 gets a remake someday, I don’t think it will take all the much work to make a super awesome game.
The door + area map thing is pretty bad.
That would be a fix that I would even look to try to do for a remaster
I am relatively new to the DA series and I played through the whole series last year, and DA2 was honestly my favorite. It was surprising to me to see that it was apparently so disliked by OG fans.
The story felt more personal, and I felt a lot more attached to the companions. Their relashionships also felt very real and entertaining to watch.
Also loved Hawke being some unfortunate guy or gal that just keeps getting dragged into trouble and trying to make the best of it. Inquisitor describes them perfectly in Inquisition.
"He gave his life not because he swore an oath, or been marked as special, but because SOMEONE had to do it."
The biggest cause of the dislike I believe was the shock at the change
Everybody complained (at the time of release and continues to do so even these days) that DA2 had a ton of reusable locations for various quests, yet nobody seems to mind the same problem (which is more prevalent) in boring Oblivion, Skyrim and various other RPG-wannabes.
Skyrim does a better job of genericizing their reuse.
@@MarkDarrah I'd say only thanks to the scope of the game. DA2 was done in a year and it took around 5 years for Skyrim to be done and it still turned out boring.
Great video, really like this kind of content. My perspective on DA2 is probably different from most as I'm a recent DA fan (though I wasn't new to BioWare games, I was a big fan of Mass Effect), but I was still somewhat aware of fan perception of the games - namely that Origins is the "best" and DA2 is the "worst". I, however, didn't feel that way, I enjoyed DA2 more than Origins in fact. Maybe part of that is because I played on console, maybe part of it is I came from ME with its action combat, maybe it was just because my expectations weren't for a direct sequel to DAO, I'm not sure.
One thing I really liked about DA2 was actually the more linear aspect of it, with the 3 Act structure and the timejumps. It made me feel as if I could see character and story arcs progress over time (kind of like a mini ME trilogy actually, just condensed into one game). I think it contributed to me having stronger feelings (whether positive or negative) about the companions in DA2 compared to most in DAO. As you said, it's about the characters stupid.
I also overall have a positive outlook on the course the story takes at the end (Anders betrayal, Orsino succumbing to blood magic, Meredith going crazy) and how Hawke is essentially powerless to the destruction of Kirkwall. I found it a compelling narrative, and for another ME comparison, one of the reasons ME3 is my favorite ME game due to its similarity there (a narrative driven by tragedy and desperation). Both games are complained about endlessly due to "choices not mattering at the end" but I like it in both cases lol
"You can't fix everything" is a hard story beat in an RPG for some
a bonus little tip because I loved this game that much and really enjoyed this video talking about it.
Thank you!
And, I'm glad you enjoyed it
1. Its lovely that DA2 actually had a name.
2. Yea...we all know that cave.
3. I loved DAO but I fell in love with all of the characters in DAE. First time meeting a dwarves character that I liked. I romanced Anders and got up from my seat and waited for 10mins because I couldn't decide what to do.
Maybe if a remaster ever happens they can switch it.
I'm eight minutes into the video; and my thoughts at this part about Dragon Age 2 being made out of an expansion pack has always been amazement. The fact the team made a full fledged game out of an expansion pack with such a short turn round development time, a game I think is much better than people give it credit for, is truly amazing. It's not the best game out there, and not the best Dragon Age game, but it's still a great game on its own merit. The only thing in my opinion that is obvious that lets the game down is the necessary reuse of maps for it to be made in that short span of time. Dragon Age 2 is still up there for me as one of my favourite games.
It has definitely earned some love over the years
Now this is a lot of content. Wow!
I guess I remember 2010 better then 1998
@@MarkDarrah who knew? Not me. Great video though I really enjoyed it and can't wait for the DAI retrospective.
I can't believe how much of your content I have missed. You've been busy, I'm still catching up. Still happy to support you. I think Dragon Age 2 was an incredible accomplishment, although I don't understand EA's dislike of expansion packs given they fall over themselves with it for The Sims. I am full of presumptions about this though; one is that it's 'easier' to create, one would think that you'd be using all the tools you developed for the actual game in the development for its expansion so the barrier to entry would be much lessened. While I suspect it's true that the percentage of people playing the expansion would be much less than those who play the base game, I would also assume the cost to develop an expansion is much less too. I also would be interested to see what that percentage would be with CDPR given how much loved Heart of Stone and more specifically Blood & Wine were (and the upcoming Cyberpunk 2077 one)
As to DA2's longevity; a part of me thinks it's survived so well is because of how stable the game engine is. I don't recall any bugs occuring at all, no crashes (which I know you had to make sure of given console certification, but I've still occasionally had games crash to desktop on xbox360 etc, etc). I don't recall a single hiccup on PC either. I think in many ways it's reuse of assets and it's distinctive art style has helped it (although I admit I wasn't too crazy on it when it came out - especially the elf redesign). If Dragon Age Origins was a grand tale of betrayal, stakes and hope, then DA2's much more intimate tale was a breath of fresh air. It didn't *have* to reinvent the wheel or tell a grand story, because it had already done that in the first game.
Your discussion about asset re-use makes sense. I think your explanation about the cave system and why that wasn't successful is because it's a natural habitat, so I don't think any cave system is alike due to that (although I am a novice when it comes to spelunking!). That's why we can't provide the suspension of disbelief because that light beam is something we've seen before. In truth, we may have been able to look past that if it only happened a few times, but when it's every call to explore a cave. Although I think the argument can go both ways. Look at the game Warframe from Digital Extremes. In that game the player goes exploring and blasting their way through numerous spacecraft that belong to the Grineer and Corpus. But why are those 'levels' randomly generated from a multitude of different tilesets that are chosen and then 'slotted' together? Surely a space craft; of all things, would use a singular design for a space vessel class. It would be horrible, not to mention confusing if you were Grineer soldier 429 to be transferred from cruiser #5525-A to #5525-B if it had a completely different interior design.
Sims has a business model that isn't replicated anywhere else.
The LTV for a sims player is >100$ for other games ~40$ (or less)
I have really enjoyed this video and the one on origins. I started with inquisition and now that I’m older and appreciate the development of video games more I played origins and 2 and really value what they did. Your insight is fascinating as a player of these games. Lots of heart put into dragon age
Thank you
This might be a lot of rambling, so bear with me.
It makes me sad that to this day, there are still people giving shit to DA2 for being what it is. Even though what it is is really damn impressive considering the time frame it was developed in. When the game came out in 2011, my reaction was basically the "holy shit! two cakes" meme. I didn't see a problem with it. I had already played Origins and I loved it of course, but DA2 looked amazing as well. I wasn't able to buy and fully play through it until early 2015, but after that, it went on to become one of my favourite games of all time. (Also, the Mark of the Assassin DLC ROCKS.)
I genuinely didn't mind the single city location or the repeating dungeon maps. I'm someone who needs to use walkthroughs for 99% of the games I play anyway, so going into already familiar location was a huge help. What I also loved is that the companions had story arcs in each act so they felt more believable and also, none of the romances were bad. In fact, Anders's romance with Male Hawke helped me come to terms with my sexuality all those years ago. Lastly, the combat felt really smooth and flashy, which definitely helped with the game aging well.
When I was finally able to play through DAI in 2017 or so, I did 2 playthroughs in total and I had a decent time with them. but as time went on, the game's problems became more and more apparent. The open world aspect sucks and few areas feel good to play in, combat feels artificially difficult due to inflated HP numbers on enemies and also due to the removed healing spells, Frostbite is a horrible engine, the writing can be highly questionable most of the time,the number of romances feel super limited when you're not playing a Female Inquisitor,etc. I regularly go back to Origins and DA2 and they feel like "home" in a way, whereas DAI's issues are the reason why I've not been able to do another playthrough since 2017. Also, I just find it really hard to be excited for DA4 after everything.
I’m glad you found something worthwhile in DA2
Given that all of DA2 is told by Varric to a seeker of the chantry, I always headcannoned that Orsino and some of the mages actually go into hiding if you side with mages, and Varric lies and says Hawke killed them and Orsino in order to cover their tracks.
I mean it’s possible, for sure
I really enjoyed DA2, it was clear at the time there was stuff going on behind the scenes and I think we got was well thought out. I liked the day/night cycle within the city, it was a good use of the gaming space. Also, I live a 20 minute drive from the real world Kirkwall so I'll always have a soft spot for this game.
Day / night in DA2 is the most purposeful use BioWare has ever done
@@MarkDarrah It made the city feel a lot more alive, a lot of games only tell you its not safe to walk the streets at night but DA2 showed you. And the amount of DA2 cosplay is unreal, people really connected with those characters. I see so much of myself in Isabella, her romance is so touching.
Wow, an enjoyable and very informative coverage of DA 2, especially the analysis of the marketing with the treehouse/frat house analogy. This really is a help for me in at least lending some understanding of Gamer attitudes and behavior toward the game, which I was felt was unacceptable at the time. The hue and cry over the flaws of the game, that it wasn’t Origins. And worst of all the social media hazing of writer Jennifer Hepler was/is unforgivable, and an unacceptable loss of a writer who had little to no recourse and no effective way to back her from the psycho gamer hordes, in part because social media algorithms favor rage modes, or whatever the reason.
What I learned here was that marketing unintentionally set up the core community, which doesn’t excuse or mitigate the bad behavior of gamers, and arguably doesn’t change anything in how I feel about the ugliness within the gaming social media sphere. But the explanation is at least telling us that a company has an awareness of how the marketing affects consumer knee-jerk reactions that are not always conscious, and indeed leading to a way-overblown response beyond legitimate feedbacks like tweaking reused assets.
The story is phenomenal and my favorite game of all time (my first game being Pong in 1975 so I go way back). Really a theme for me is how very small events in one person’s life leads to big consequences involving the world, how small things connect. In this case, it’s love and the love of family/friends, Hawke trying to make a life and it unhinges everything. The qunari seemed like an allegory of the wars/conflicts of the day with orthodoxy in religions, would anyone even dare write that today? Who knows.
As part of the treehouse, I wish this title had more flexibility for gaming challenges without mods, such as solo Nightmare mode. But Inquisition certainly added that back and I hope the next title keeps that flexibility because I can tell you that the treehouse streaming the game for years via challenges gets a lot of people to play who otherwise skipped the title.
Yes I do think Marketing unintentionally radicalized part of the core.
I've had a problem with the shadows being so black in DA2; I'm just realising now, with your comment on Kurosawa in the High Renaissance, how a black and white mod would accentuate the art style of DA2 in a striking manner! While DA:O had a bit of a problem with distinguishable values, DA2 really leaned into the almost brutalist visuals of Kirkwall with the top-down lighting in an almost Caravagesque effect.
Yes black and white would be interesting.
For a second there I thought you were using a modded body mesh for Bethany, so I guess I didn't notice her cup size change while playing but did when watching.
Which I think underscores that it was likely a misuse of resources
The Dragon Age games are my absolute favorite games ever because of the characters, their personalities and the ability to have those relationships with them. That's why I like Dragon age games better than the witcher games, skyrim, dos2 (other games that I do really enjoy tho) but it just makes the Dragon age games so much more special for me. I feel like the witcher really tries to implement those relationships as well but for me it never worked that well, I'm not excited to talk to Triss or Yen or have a relationship with them (maybe also because the witcher is always a man and I can't identify with him) but I do always get excited to talk to the Dragon age characters even tho I played through especially inquisition like 25 times and I still always love listening to the conversations ❤️
Characters drive story
Its...kind of amazing how much just assuming "Oh EAs the reason for this wrong decision being made, right?" hits the mark
Not always, but sometimes for sure
I really enjoy this video, I bet it took a long time to make. and I appreciate it. (also I love dragon age 2). The secret sauce is characters. Could you make videos where you talk about that until we beg you to stop beating that poor horse? I want the ratio of that sauce, I want the color dye of it. I want step-to-step guidance on the recipe on a page where I have to scroll half the page through ads and the life story of the creator to get to it. If this sauce requires me to understand the culture of 1700 to read the recipe I will buy the books...ok i might me spreading a little thick , but you get the point.
It took a while…
I think for all its flaws, DA2 did so many amazing things. I've replayed it (completely) at least 26 times. Had some of the best characters (yes, the characters are where this game shines so well) I've never hated it. I did notice the flaws, but I didn't care that much about them. My only real disappointment had been Act 3. As I felt it should've veered more drastically based on supporting templars/mage. I did like the combat. Even more than DAO. To this day, I think DA2 is my fave in terms of pacing, reactivity, characters, location, and voice acting.
The only other thing that stood out as "wish this were tweaked a bit" was the friendship/rivalry system, which I like the IDEA of but I didn't exactly love the iteration of it.
I do love the DA2 art. I have a DA2 poster on my wall, right in front of my desktop. It's such a great image.
I also think act 3 should have been more different.
And I think there were ways to have gotten there if I had been willing to allow plot locked content.
Or more time.
Another interesting insight into this flawed but enjoyable game. Thanks!
One thing that I may have missed or you may have not discussed it is the tendency to repeatedly pop in additional enemies in just about every combat situation. I felt like this was way overdone and really stuck out as a negative for me as a player. I could see having more enemies arrive during a fight now and then, but it just came across as filler to lengthen combat when they just "pop in", seemingly falling from the sky, emerging from the ground, or literally appearing out of thin air. If the choice is between making the first enemy group tougher so they take longer or "artificially" popping in additional enemies, I'd prefer making the initial group tougher.
It was overdone.
It was a shortcut to balance