The 3rd screw adjusts the reset margin, Or hysteresis if you are into electronics. There is no "empty" position. The switch is either ON or OFF or in overflow. Thank you very much for the video, it was very clear and helpful.
So glad you found the video helpful! Thank you for your input about the switch. Its operation is still puzzling me :) Either way there must be a third function for the "Rinse" level which is also altered when adjusting this screw. Also there are 4 wires going to the pressure switch which could indicate 3 positions if one cable is common. I did take the pressure switch apart but did not film so I don't remember the insides... Unfortunately all wiring diagrams I have found are blurred and not clear...
@@varnasfix "4 wires" there are Normally open AND normally closed leads coming from the first position. one is for the water inlet the other one is for the water heater, ensuring the heater wont turn on if there is no water in the machine since that would cause a fire.
@@fortheregm1249 Yep you are absolutely right! Thanks for clearing that up! Just found the Metalflex HD505 datasheet and this pressure switch is listed as "Single Level" & "Water Heater Protection"... Nice info!
im glad that im not the only one that is disturbed by how low the water level is in modern front load washers, just 5 clothes and the water is fully absorbed and you will feel like the washer is spinning dry clothes, doesnt feel clean at all
I have an IGNIS front load, same issue. Thought machine not good brand, even spread the word. We even took out the inlet water filter to clean (it was very clean). I then figured it had to be a faulty inlet valve. Now finding out it's a real problem on other brands. 🙄😡 Thanks to all who shared "how to fix". I must have watched about 50 videos. 🙈🥵😂
Love it. Thats the way it should be from beginning. Found three turns to be great for me. Tried four and that was way too high, halfway up window. When lowering, it seems best if return to stock setting, then add the turns needed. Washed every blanket in the house ! Large ones need to be done one at a time for balance and to spin correctly. Wash loads are cleaner than ever with much less detergent needed.
This is great, thank you. On the Pressure sensor you had 3 screws there to choose from... you turned the middle one 2x... what are the other ones for and how did you know which was the correct one to use?
Thus machine is older than the one I've got. And though they are slightly different in appearence all machine have a regualator such as the one you have. Turning the screw all the way can and will cause the water to increase. But there is one more issue some machines have, and that's the timer, which only allows water to be added based on time. Living in Mexico where as the vast majority of homes utilize gravity for their water presure. Which cause the water not to reach the level you show. There is a small generally blue in color piece of plastic in one of the hose's attached to the various water sensor's. Generally it's the black one. By carefull screwing in a two inch long 1/8 in screw into the plastic and then carefull pulling it out. Will lessen the time it takes for sufficent water in the time alloted. Screw in the screw, and pull backwards, don't yank it. It's extremely tight, but with even presure and ever so slightly movement back and forth. It can be removed.
Although low water level in modern front-leaders may be an issue, posters here are poss a little confused: the tumbling action is what soaks textiles; they will all be soaked regardless of level. However, you may still prefer a slightly higher level. More of an issue than washing is rinsing: modern machines are less satisfactory at removing detergent than cleaning due to inadequate water quantity (and possibly inadequate rinse action programme and spin to extract soapy water), thus extra water for rinse phase is likely to improve this. Users often put too much detergent in too: manufacturers' dosage instruction is in effect the MAX that should be used (as they have vested interest in more consumption): 25-33% less is probably fine and will result in better-rinsed textiles.
Marcus that is some good info!! :) This model is really right on the limit of low level water during the washing cycle as many look for a solution to that... Especially when the washing machine is fully loaded the wash i just poor. The problem with using large quantities of detergent is true indeed and that is why some models (including this one) has an "extra rinse" button for large quantity of detergent as mentioned in the manual... I am positive that this "hack" also changes the rinse water level as well..... For us what have really caused problems (mold) was large quantity of fabric softener, but using less and a different brand seems to have solved the problem...
@@varnasfix Varnas: Fabric conditioner exacerbates mold and dirt retention in the outer tub (leaves an oily film). It really isn;t necessary if a tumble dryer's used as that softens fabric - but if it IS used half the manufacturers' dosage suffices. The extra rinse programme isn't for a large load as such - the standard rinse is s'posed to suffice for all load sizes - but for those who may have skin problems that need cleaning products more thoroughly removed or babies' items. Of course, rather than increase the rinse water quantity one could just use this extra rinse. I don't think the 'extra rinse' programme adds to water level: it literally *adds* one additional rinse. On a typical load it means there are three rinses instead of two: one, an additional second, then the final to which conditioner is dispensed - so three.
The one exaclty on the left as you see it in the video, adjusts the overflow (flood protection) and the one on the top left adjusts the "empty" level... This was found by trial & error, so i am "almost" sure about its functions
leave them alone. There is one that is very deep, one which is very shallow and the last one should be in medium position (first from right). 1-2 turns clockwise, which should make that switch stiffer to press by air which presses on rubber membrane. This is why you screw in not screw out. Don't touch anything else as it might be hard to set up back.
@@varnasfix Thanks for sharing the knowledge !! This has 4 wires(One NC, One common, and two NO). I have a similar one in Siemens. So is the empty level settings is used for enabling the final spin ?? Please let me know. My washer is not doing the final spin, rest all cycles are fine having wet clothes at the end.
@@gumnahs You are welcome! Maybe check with a multimeter that NC and NO contacts aren't stuck and that the feed hose to the pressure switch isn't blocked... in my situation i attached a silicone hose and put pressure by blowing. The third level (highest pressure) is the "emergency" emptying which starts the drain pump straight away. Hope it helps!
@@varnasfix Thanks for the clarification !! I was able to verify the pressure sensor it is working fine ! I think i need to change the carbon brush for the motor.
If you have exactly the same pressure switch you should try 1 turn clockwise first and run the washing cycle to check the results... don't forget the more water in the washing machine the more electricity it needs to heat it up..
I managed to do that. 2 turns are enough, I'm not sure is there something else to change as in rinse mode it's a bit overfill. I think that washing machine had a faulty setup from the start. I just bought it used so firstly I just added more water from a bucket, now it's ok. I'm not sure how that board "understand" that extra water but so far it just sensing less water and click by the relay and add some more. I only worried not to break the cycle and confuse the board it's something wrong going on. I tried to do something similar in the past and I failed, board kept pump everything out, that must be a board at that time.
I think all these washing machines are adjusted from factory to use very little water in order to advertise as "low water" & "less energy"... I have this one from new and i used to add water with a hose through the drawer in order to get a decent wash. I had to find how to adjust it, i could not find any info on this specific pressure switch on the net. I have tested the "overflow" by filling it with a hose until it starts pumping out... Also we have been using the washing machine for some time with much more water (4-5 turns) and the only problem was with high temperature (>60C) programs did not have enough time to reach the desired temperature and through a "relay stuck" code.... And yes it does add some more water in the rinse cycle Thanks for the input!
@Varnas I wanted to do it this way but t's so complicated to add that water to each part of a cycle, you have to stand and watch is it time to add water. Yeah, they do it to pretend it's class A but mine still didn't take enough. It just that machine is too dummy to do it properly. It's wet clothes but there is not enough water to submerge them so water doesn't flow in, that water level is kind of untouched because it's under the drum XD When is more water there is more water sucked by cotton so more is pumped in etc etc You won't find anything because people don't bother, they just buy another machine. I have instruction for mine IWC8123 and there is nothing about parts of that cycle, I don't know how much water it should take each time it's doing something. It's like first wet everything, after 20 minutes it's pump out it, then it's still washing and then it's rinsing again and then again before final spin. at least now takes that water and I see it when it washing it before it just spins them wet. When it rinsing it takes too much but that doesn't bother me as much. I washed on white cotton 90 program and I think I have kind of opposite thoughts. I'm not sure, but I might get "flashing lights" fault because there was no water as everything was sucked by cloths. Another "great" thing about that indesit s**t - mine not blinking in any order so I don't have a clue why it gets that fault. So I didn't really have a problem heating that extra bucket of water, I guess it meantime between cycles pumps itself out and left all water under and then it overheats itself? Another thing is that relay which clicks too often, I guess it's easier just setup it lower in the factory so it won't click so often. It just not a washing machine that scale laundry, that "eco" thing might work there, there is no way to wet a big blanket or full drum of socks by so small surface under. So far I wash it twice with more water and it passed without fault.
That model has an electronic linear pressure switch (as many newer models do). It may have an adjustment inside but i strongly advice against opening it up... BigClive has a very detailed video about them if you want to check: ua-cam.com/video/O-0KGbd91_I/v-deo.html
@@varnasfix I saw the video, to be able to adjust the modern sensor, I made a 10mm hole in the sensor housing right in the middle, through this hole I was able to tighten the screw in two turns 
@@sreejithtechfoodtravel1146 another point of failure is the hose that connects to the pressure switch. If the hose gets clogged the sensor won't work as intended as it does not get the correct "reading". Blowing through the hose will cure the blockage most of the times...
Hello what if the water sensor doesn't have any screws to turn? Sensor model number W11025732 Machine will fill water only for few minutes and stop. Power supply to the water valve will be disconnected but machine will work for some time till h2o error will show. What is the fault?
The sensor you refer to is probably electronic so adjusting the mechanical screw does not apply... But if your washing machine was working before it shouldn't need an adjustment... Only thing i can think of is the hose that is connected to the sensor, it can get blocked. Blow air hard into the hose to clear any obstructions... hope it helps..
you can do this but using quick wash cycles it will never reach the selected temperature within the time, this is pretty high you’d have to use COTTON programs
Thank you for the input! I did test with a watt meter when the heating element cuts off and even in the 60 min program it is able to reach 50 degrees Celsius. However it definitely takes more time and energy!
@@varnasfix Machine manuals usually (always?) show that the programme temp is never reached. I'm unsure why this is. For example, the 40C wash will be stated as actually 33 or 35C in the manual. In effect the programme temp is 'up to' that temp, not AT that temp. It IS misleading! I assumed that water temp was controlled not by set time on for heater but by thermostat - and I still think this: as in winter the incoming cold water may be considerably colder than in summer it would seem not to make sense that the heater was controlled by timing and not thermostat as it would be washing a different temperatures on the same programme, which might vary by 10C across winter and summer.
That is some very interesting info! I am pretty sure there is a temperature sensor and it is controlled by the thermostat (at least in this model). I have done the test as i mention and the heating element does cut out. But depending on your location it is true that the inlet water is extremely cold during winter... Also if your water is hard the heating element WILL build up scale and hinder its performance... Doing some washes with vinegar or a professional descaler might help performance a lot!@@marcusstewart3044
This is my problem with our new ge front loader smart washer ultrafresh, i dnt see enough water, its just it wet the cloths and thats it, i dnt see any level of water all see is wet cloths spinning, its new and first time using it today im so stressed, is it normal? Thank u
Yep that sounds totally normal... All new washing machines use a minimal amount of water in order to be "energy efficient". In most new front loader you don't see the level of water..
@@varnasfix im not happy with this purchased, not satisfied obviously its not energy and water and time saver coz u will have to wash ur cloths again, im nt happy that my cloths dnt smell fresh, i would rather have our old front load washer, im so stressed using the @geultrafreshwasher #geappliance , disappointed
@@varnasfix coz our old washer i can atleast see water level and i know that its washing and rinsing well specially cloths with stain, its annoying that somebody say u can trick the machine or just put water, i didnt buy an expensive washer to experience inconvenience, i want to make my life easier, i even go to laundrymat bfore and all of the washer there have enough water wen filling, i dnt know how to adjust the inside too, what should i do?
@@louievictorio8790 More modern machines have an electronic water level sensor rather than the mechanical one in the indesit. You can adjust the water level but it will adjust the level in all the washing phases (i think). If you want to check out how a modern water level transducer works check @bigclivedotcom for "Inside a washing machine water level transducer." Hope it helps...
The 3rd screw adjusts the reset margin, Or hysteresis if you are into electronics. There is no "empty" position. The switch is either ON or OFF or in overflow.
Thank you very much for the video, it was very clear and helpful.
So glad you found the video helpful!
Thank you for your input about the switch. Its operation is still puzzling me :) Either way there must be a third function for the "Rinse" level which is also altered when adjusting this screw. Also there are 4 wires going to the pressure switch which could indicate 3 positions if one cable is common. I did take the pressure switch apart but did not film so I don't remember the insides... Unfortunately all wiring diagrams I have found are blurred and not clear...
@@varnasfix "4 wires" there are Normally open AND normally closed leads coming from the first position.
one is for the water inlet the other one is for the water heater, ensuring the heater wont turn on if there is no water in the machine since that would cause a fire.
@@fortheregm1249 Yep you are absolutely right! Thanks for clearing that up!
Just found the Metalflex HD505 datasheet and this pressure switch is listed as "Single Level" & "Water Heater Protection"...
Nice info!
im glad that im not the only one that is disturbed by how low the water level is in modern front load washers, just 5 clothes and the water is fully absorbed and you will feel like the washer is spinning dry clothes, doesnt feel clean at all
I have an IGNIS front load, same issue. Thought machine not good brand, even spread the word. We even took out the inlet water filter to clean (it was very clean). I then figured it had to be a faulty inlet valve. Now finding out it's a real problem on other brands. 🙄😡 Thanks to all who shared "how to fix". I must have watched about 50 videos. 🙈🥵😂
However, I still don't think the clothes etc. are really clean. 🤔
Love it. Thats the way it should be from beginning. Found three turns to be great for me. Tried four and that was way too high, halfway up window. When lowering, it seems best if return to stock setting, then add the turns needed. Washed every blanket in the house ! Large ones need to be done one at a time for balance and to spin correctly. Wash loads are cleaner than ever with much less detergent needed.
Totally agree :)
This is great, thank you. On the Pressure sensor you had 3 screws there to choose from... you turned the middle one 2x... what are the other ones for and how did you know which was the correct one to use?
The others are "overflow" and "empty level"... Trial and error was used. It is discussed further down in the comments.
Brilliant thanks for the info 🙏
Thus machine is older than the one I've got. And though they are slightly different in appearence all machine have a regualator such as the one you have. Turning the screw all the way can and will cause the water to increase. But there is one more issue some machines have, and that's the timer, which only allows water to be added based on time.
Living in Mexico where as the vast majority of homes utilize gravity for their water presure. Which cause the water not to reach the level you show. There is a small generally blue in color piece of plastic in one of the hose's attached to the various water sensor's. Generally it's the black one. By carefull screwing in a two inch long 1/8 in screw into the plastic and then carefull pulling it out. Will lessen the time it takes for sufficent water in the time alloted. Screw in the screw, and pull backwards, don't yank it. It's extremely tight, but with even presure and ever so slightly movement back and forth. It can be removed.
Is this blue plastic in the hose only a Mexico thing?.
Although low water level in modern front-leaders may be an issue, posters here are poss a little confused: the tumbling action is what soaks textiles; they will all be soaked regardless of level. However, you may still prefer a slightly higher level. More of an issue than washing is rinsing: modern machines are less satisfactory at removing detergent than cleaning due to inadequate water quantity (and possibly inadequate rinse action programme and spin to extract soapy water), thus extra water for rinse phase is likely to improve this. Users often put too much detergent in too: manufacturers' dosage instruction is in effect the MAX that should be used (as they have vested interest in more consumption): 25-33% less is probably fine and will result in better-rinsed textiles.
Marcus that is some good info!! :)
This model is really right on the limit of low level water during the washing cycle as many look for a solution to that... Especially when the washing machine is fully loaded the wash i just poor.
The problem with using large quantities of detergent is true indeed and that is why some models (including this one) has an "extra rinse" button for large quantity of detergent as mentioned in the manual... I am positive that this "hack" also changes the rinse water level as well.....
For us what have really caused problems (mold) was large quantity of fabric softener, but using less and a different brand seems to have solved the problem...
@@varnasfix Varnas: Fabric conditioner exacerbates mold and dirt retention in the outer tub (leaves an oily film). It really isn;t necessary if a tumble dryer's used as that softens fabric - but if it IS used half the manufacturers' dosage suffices. The extra rinse programme isn't for a large load as such - the standard rinse is s'posed to suffice for all load sizes - but for those who may have skin problems that need cleaning products more thoroughly removed or babies' items. Of course, rather than increase the rinse water quantity one could just use this extra rinse.
I don't think the 'extra rinse' programme adds to water level: it literally *adds* one additional rinse. On a typical load it means there are three rinses instead of two: one, an additional second, then the final to which conditioner is dispensed - so three.
Tx, fixed my problem!
great job
there are 3 screw u just adjest one of them what about 2 of them ?
The one exaclty on the left as you see it in the video, adjusts the overflow (flood protection) and the one on the top left adjusts the "empty" level... This was found by trial & error, so i am "almost" sure about its functions
leave them alone. There is one that is very deep, one which is very shallow and the last one should be in medium position (first from right). 1-2 turns clockwise, which should make that switch stiffer to press by air which presses on rubber membrane. This is why you screw in not screw out. Don't touch anything else as it might be hard to set up back.
@@varnasfix Thanks for sharing the knowledge !! This has 4 wires(One NC, One common, and two NO). I have a similar one in Siemens. So is the empty level settings is used for enabling the final spin ?? Please let me know. My washer is not doing the final spin, rest all cycles are fine having wet clothes at the end.
@@gumnahs You are welcome! Maybe check with a multimeter that NC and NO contacts aren't stuck and that the feed hose to the pressure switch isn't blocked... in my situation i attached a silicone hose and put pressure by blowing. The third level (highest pressure) is the "emergency" emptying which starts the drain pump straight away. Hope it helps!
@@varnasfix Thanks for the clarification !! I was able to verify the pressure sensor it is working fine ! I think i need to change the carbon brush for the motor.
I have the whirlpool wfw94heaw0 and I can’t find the screw to turn it down
The sensor that it uses does not seem to have any adjustments. It is fixed from factory...
Have many times do i turn please thankyou for video
If you have exactly the same pressure switch you should try 1 turn clockwise first and run the washing cycle to check the results... don't forget the more water in the washing machine the more electricity it needs to heat it up..
I managed to do that. 2 turns are enough, I'm not sure is there something else to change as in rinse mode it's a bit overfill. I think that washing machine had a faulty setup from the start. I just bought it used so firstly I just added more water from a bucket, now it's ok. I'm not sure how that board "understand" that extra water but so far it just sensing less water and click by the relay and add some more. I only worried not to break the cycle and confuse the board it's something wrong going on.
I tried to do something similar in the past and I failed, board kept pump everything out, that must be a board at that time.
I think all these washing machines are adjusted from factory to use very little water in order to advertise as "low water" & "less energy"... I have this one from new and i used to add water with a hose through the drawer in order to get a decent wash. I had to find how to adjust it, i could not find any info on this specific pressure switch on the net.
I have tested the "overflow" by filling it with a hose until it starts pumping out...
Also we have been using the washing machine for some time with much more water (4-5 turns) and the only problem was with high temperature (>60C) programs did not have enough time to reach the desired temperature and through a "relay stuck" code....
And yes it does add some more water in the rinse cycle
Thanks for the input!
@Varnas I wanted to do it this way but t's so complicated to add that water to each part of a cycle, you have to stand and watch is it time to add water. Yeah, they do it to pretend it's class A but mine still didn't take enough. It just that machine is too dummy to do it properly. It's wet clothes but there is not enough water to submerge them so water doesn't flow in, that water level is kind of untouched because it's under the drum XD When is more water there is more water sucked by cotton so more is pumped in etc etc
You won't find anything because people don't bother, they just buy another machine. I have instruction for mine IWC8123 and there is nothing about parts of that cycle, I don't know how much water it should take each time it's doing something. It's like first wet everything, after 20 minutes it's pump out it, then it's still washing and then it's rinsing again and then again before final spin. at least now takes that water and I see it when it washing it before it just spins them wet. When it rinsing it takes too much but that doesn't bother me as much.
I washed on white cotton 90 program and I think I have kind of opposite thoughts. I'm not sure, but I might get "flashing lights" fault because there was no water as everything was sucked by cloths. Another "great" thing about that indesit s**t - mine not blinking in any order so I don't have a clue why it gets that fault. So I didn't really have a problem heating that extra bucket of water, I guess it meantime between cycles pumps itself out and left all water under and then it overheats itself?
Another thing is that relay which clicks too often, I guess it's easier just setup it lower in the factory so it won't click so often.
It just not a washing machine that scale laundry, that "eco" thing might work there, there is no way to wet a big blanket or full drum of socks by so small surface under.
So far I wash it twice with more water and it passed without fault.
What's the model of this switch?
Should be written on the back
It is a Metalflex HD505
@@varnasfix thanks
Its the same one as in my amica
How to set the water level in indesit iwc61051
That model has an electronic linear pressure switch (as many newer models do). It may have an adjustment inside but i strongly advice against opening it up... BigClive has a very detailed video about them if you want to check: ua-cam.com/video/O-0KGbd91_I/v-deo.html
@@varnasfix I saw the video, to be able to adjust the modern sensor, I made a 10mm hole in the sensor housing right in the middle, through this hole I was able to tighten the screw in two turns

my washer is overfilling water and moving to next cycle but not draining water what may be the problem
problem with drain pump or drain filter? have you checked for obstructions in the drain filter?
@@varnasfix drain pump is fine I tested with Its working on test lamp filter is clean..is this issue may with pressure switch ?
@@sreejithtechfoodtravel1146 another point of failure is the hose that connects to the pressure switch. If the hose gets clogged the sensor won't work as intended as it does not get the correct "reading". Blowing through the hose will cure the blockage most of the times...
Hello what if the water sensor doesn't have any screws to turn? Sensor model number W11025732
Machine will fill water only for few minutes and stop. Power supply to the water valve will be disconnected but machine will work for some time till h2o error will show. What is the fault?
The sensor you refer to is probably electronic so adjusting the mechanical screw does not apply...
But if your washing machine was working before it shouldn't need an adjustment...
Only thing i can think of is the hose that is connected to the sensor, it can get blocked. Blow air hard into the hose to clear any obstructions...
hope it helps..
you can do this but using quick wash cycles it will never reach the selected temperature within the time, this is pretty high you’d have to use COTTON programs
Thank you for the input! I did test with a watt meter when the heating element cuts off and even in the 60 min program it is able to reach 50 degrees Celsius. However it definitely takes more time and energy!
@@varnasfix Machine manuals usually (always?) show that the programme temp is never reached. I'm unsure why this is. For example, the 40C wash will be stated as actually 33 or 35C in the manual. In effect the programme temp is 'up to' that temp, not AT that temp. It IS misleading! I assumed that water temp was controlled not by set time on for heater but by thermostat - and I still think this: as in winter the incoming cold water may be considerably colder than in summer it would seem not to make sense that the heater was controlled by timing and not thermostat as it would be washing a different temperatures on the same programme, which might vary by 10C across winter and summer.
That is some very interesting info! I am pretty sure there is a temperature sensor and it is controlled by the thermostat (at least in this model). I have done the test as i mention and the heating element does cut out. But depending on your location it is true that the inlet water is extremely cold during winter... Also if your water is hard the heating element WILL build up scale and hinder its performance... Doing some washes with vinegar or a professional descaler might help performance a lot!@@marcusstewart3044
This is my problem with our new ge front loader smart washer ultrafresh, i dnt see enough water, its just it wet the cloths and thats it, i dnt see any level of water all see is wet cloths spinning, its new and first time using it today im so stressed, is it normal? Thank u
Yep that sounds totally normal... All new washing machines use a minimal amount of water in order to be "energy efficient". In most new front loader you don't see the level of water..
@@varnasfix im not happy with this purchased, not satisfied obviously its not energy and water and time saver coz u will have to wash ur cloths again, im nt happy that my cloths dnt smell fresh, i would rather have our old front load washer, im so stressed using the @geultrafreshwasher #geappliance , disappointed
@@louievictorio8790 i hear you! that was exactly my problem with the washing machine, very annoying!
@@varnasfix coz our old washer i can atleast see water level and i know that its washing and rinsing well specially cloths with stain, its annoying that somebody say u can trick the machine or just put water, i didnt buy an expensive washer to experience inconvenience, i want to make my life easier, i even go to laundrymat bfore and all of the washer there have enough water wen filling, i dnt know how to adjust the inside too, what should i do?
@@louievictorio8790 More modern machines have an electronic water level sensor rather than the mechanical one in the indesit. You can adjust the water level but it will adjust the level in all the washing phases (i think). If you want to check out how a modern water level transducer works check @bigclivedotcom for "Inside a washing machine water level transducer." Hope it helps...
thank you
But what happens when rinsing does not increase the water?
Just saw the message… maybe it has a different setting screw for the rinse? Also many washing machines have “extra rinse” button and that adds water
@@varnasfix i know some Washing Machines have this option anyway i want yo know Does the water is out of normal Level
@@varnasfix but don't use the program 8 because at the wash we gonna be over normal limit
Uk washing machine indesit
Still I can't wash my clothes with that kind of water level. Clothes should be 100% soaked. Still top load is the best for me.
yes even with the adjusted higher water level the wash quality doesn't compare to a top loader...