What Does Handling Really Mean? - The Carmudgeon Show w/ Jason Cammisa & Derek Tam-Scott - Ep. 119
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- Опубліковано 1 жов 2024
- People often misunderstand the definition of "handling." What does the term really mean - and what makes the Lucid Air Sapphire the best-handling car in the world?
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Watch Larry Webster try to roll a Corvair:
• Will the Corvair Kill ...
Watch Jason Cammisa and Jason Fenske in the Lucid Sapphire:
• Lucid Sapphire Smashes...
In this episode of the Carmudgeon Show, part of the Hagerty Podcast Network, Jason Cammisa and Derek Tam-Hyphen-Scott discuss handling. Jason recently drove the Lucid Air Sapphire and proclaimed it the best-handling car ever.*
*With the possible exception of the Rimac Nevera, which he hasn't slid around.
What makes the Lucid different? Is it merely grip? Or composure? Or does the 3-motor torque-vectoring, combined with in-house 1000-Hz stability control and perfect software and hardware tuning simply follow its driver's wishes flawlessly?
How does this EV compare to cars from the traditionals - like the VW id.4 or the Mercedes EQS, or even the Vinfast? What about this car makes it "Engineered Like No Other" more so than any current Mercedes. Or help it adhere to Lotus' Colin Chapman's "Simplify and Add Lightness" mantra even though it weighs more than 5000 lb?
Watch and find out!
I interned for Lucid on the vehicle dynamics team. They are in fact all geniuses and huge car enthusiasts.
It's a modern fighter jet (or flying wing). Wouldn't fly without a computer, but the computer makes it great
as a young enthusiast, hearing you guys talk about sapphire and nevera fills me with hope. due to the state of the classic car market and the industry shift to electric I often feel like I was born at the worst time to be an enthusiast. but the prospect of a 600hp hot hatch from lucid for 30-something after a few years of depreciation… wow. finding a two car solution is gonna be a breeze
your passion is infectious. I love you both!
This is such a great comment...you're spot on. As someone who has owned a not-always-convenient two-seat convertible...I'm looking forward to something with EV acceleration, great handling, a lux interior and comfort. I want it to be a sleeper so that most people barely give it a second look. It's for my enjoyment. I'd like a car that can be sedate and truly comfortable but comes alive when needed, without a ton of fuss. Every thing I can find from people who seem to know what they're talking about makes me think this is it....software issues notwithstanding (all of which can be fixed). The tech talks from the CEO filled me with hope, too....rare to see that level of vision, knowledge and purpose at the very top.
Still haven’t been convinced that the future isn’t going to absolutely suck for car enthusiasts
It already does
Jason is my automotive idol. I appreciate his style and perspective when it comes to something like the Lucid Air Sapphire, I’m left feeling a bit disconnected with reality. I believe every word he has to say about it and I think I figured out why I can’t get excited to drive one: this car misses the point (at least for me). When Mazda uses the “jinba ittai” slogan in reference to the Miata, they are onto something. Oneness between horse and rider includes the process of bridging a gap between the mind of the horse and our own. THAT’s where joy emerges from driving for me. Learning the car, finding its limits, experiencing imperfections and getting better in spite of them is fun. Giving a computer instructions, hanging on, and letting microchips get their kicks for us just leaves me feeling like I need a new source of fun and joy in my life. Yes, this car handles better, accelerates better than anything but here’s my big personal discovery: “better” isn’t always better. 🤷🏻♂️
28:45 - the Jason² vid with Fenske at the wheel was fun, i can't wait to see the tables turned. 😁🍿
concur...looking forward to listening to this, though. When I first got my S2K, I spent a lot of time thinking about why I specifically loved driving it so much. I'm very much looking forward to a detailed opinion from someone who knows a crap-ton more about driving than I do.
10:39 NOW I know why the Crosstrek I drive jolts from 2 to 10 mph almost instantaneously when I so much as think about 5% throttle in 1st gear.
Interesting discussion on EV weight. What are your thoughts on the Caterham Project V? 1190kg with about 250 miles range sounds promising
no hyphen what happened😂
I was just about to ask that
Handling has always been about rotation and body control in my humble opinion. Ie: how much is this car fighting physics to get around a corner. By this definition, the best handling cars are either light or balanced closer to a mid-engined configuration.
Having owned FF, FR, MR and RR cars. And raced most of them, I don't think it matters you can make any handle well and be quick. All have positives and negatives, mid engine certainly isn't some holy grail.
But I'd say front engine rear wheel drive offers the best bang for buck in terms of FUN on the ROAD for sure. Which is really what 99.99% of motoring enthusiasts are looking for.
@@ukwan oh for sure you can, but many of the steps to do so involve better rotation, weight reduction, or improving power to weight. That’s not to say dollar for dollar one is better than the other, but again it’s about fighting physics. FF can get real quick a lot cheaper, but plow under steer becomes its limitation. In the same way. FR can be traction limited on oversteer, MR is somewhere between (though often leaning towards understeer), and AWD has no direct drawbacks but leads to big weight and ineffeciency gains. Again it all goes back to how well does this car work with the physics it’s provided with.
Yes, of course you want the car to turn when you're asking it to! 🫶
But if someone said to me do you want to take a FWD 120hp 500kg classic racing Mini or a 105hp 500kg Caterham around a track or a Lamborghini Aventador SVJ.
I'd always take the light weight option!
@@ukwanyet ppl buy AWDs like there's no tomorrow
Don't underestimate the role that center of gravity plays in handling, and this it something at which EVs inherently excel with their heavy batteries mounted at the bottom of the chassis and their motors nestled near the axle line. I've owned quite a few performance cars, including a C6 Corvette, a Mercedes-McLaren SLR, three mid-engined Audi R8s (V8, V10 coupe, V10 spyder), a Tesla Model S P90D, and currently own a Tesla Model S Plaid and a Lucid Air Dream Edition Performance. When I traded my last R8 (the spyder) for the first Tesla (the P90D), I was shocked at how well the heavy and under-tired Tesla handled compared to the mid-engine Audi (which had dry sump lubrication in order to allow the engine to sit a few inches lower in the chassis than with an oil pan). And compared to either Tesla, the Air Dream -- which comes from the man who was once the Chief Engineer at Jaguar and the head of Advanced Engineering at Lotus (two automakers with storied suspension histories) -- is a superb handler despite its gargantuan weight. It's interesting that Lucid eschewed an air suspension for a coil spring / active damper setup (the same as used in the Audi R8s), which avoids the hysteresis lag of an air suspension yet, in the hands of Lucid, produces a more compliant ride than the Tesla's air suspension.
The mic sound was unusually bad in this episode.
It might be because you're so early. Try again in a couple hours, it might be different
Edit: just checked on Spotify and the last 4 episodes have bad quality. Weird.
For once Derek is loud and Jason is quiet
We're working on the issue, guys, sorry!
It’s really compressed. They also must please put a high pass filter on the mics. Don’t need anything below 150Hz or so. It’ll remove a ton of the boominess and the rumble from hitting the table.
Fine through headphones for me
I’ve always thought of handling as being how controllable a car was. I usually prefer it if in video games/sims that they use ”cornering” as a stat instead of handling. If I put racing slicks and a front splitter on an old Beetle I didn’t make it handle better.
FWIW, I've driven an old Beetle with a built motor, full suspension, and track tires. It was wild. Tail happy, but fun.
I highly recommend finding a local on-track "driving school." Generally they can supply the car. Whatever car you take you will have fun and learn more than from a game. It's all about feel.
Is someone of the BMW M GmbH listening?
37:57 that’s why Lucid is dead already. And no one caught up because consumers couldn’t care less about what’s underneath if they like the looks, the price is right and it has CarPlay and the seat heater buttons are conveniently placed.
Dont talk too fast, the Gravity is out ready to be mass produce. So not dead at all.
While you dream of a Lucid hot hatch, I dream of a small Lucid sedan, perhaps the same size from stem to stern as the 2nd Gen Dodge Neon (SRT-4 size) but with Lucid's excellent packaging.
Ugh, I'm soooooooo tired of we have to live with 5,000 lb EVs as the future. I hope Caterham actually builds the Project V for production and makes you eat your words!! Something like 1,150 kg, 286 hp single motor, no unnecessary computers (hell not even an actual radio, just Apple Car Play so you can play music from your phone) No Frunk, No Trunk, No 50" iPad in the dash board (OK no 14" touch screen) 0-60 in 4.2 because, and I quote "Going 0-60 in 1.9 seconds on Pit Road is pointless and dangerous". And all of that for a projected cost to consumer of $80,000. OK, so it costs 95% of what I paid for my house and I can't afford one, but it looks like Sex and has personality for DAYS and is a the direction EVs will have to go for me to remotely consider giving up my daily driver economy "rental car" Ecoboost Mustang (that I bought cause I think they look a hell of a lot like an Aston Martin. And yes mine's a 6 sp manual cause the automatic Ecoboost felt like a dog on the test drive.) to drive an EV.
The best handling road legal car I have driven so far is the current GT3 RS… by a huge margin… the breaking feel and the precision while cornering - awesome. how it is „eating“ corners is exceptional. If you have the chance to drive one - especially on track - go for it - you will not regret it…
Can't wait to get a Sapphire when they're half price in 2 years!
Half? You rich SOB...I will have to wait until they are down to something more reasonable like 1/10th the price.
So far Lucids have no resale value. They lose half of their value almost instantly
So I have had a deposit on a RWD Lucid Pure since February 2022. Why RWD - because I'm even older than hyphen and very pig headed. With all of Lucid's tricks should I be upgrading (which Lucid keeps offering good discounts to do) to a Lucid Pure AWD. Or is the addition of AWD in the cheap package of the Pure not offset by the purity of RWD. Or am I living in the past insisting on RWD? I am unwilling to spend the coin to get the GT much less the Shaphire.
Shoutout to Engineering Explained's video on the packaging of the Lucid.
I just returned from a weekend at Sonoma. First time ever seeing that track. Jason describing the Scandi flick on the back stretch is terrifying with how tight the proximity is there.
I spoke to Lucid's Derek Jenkins (Lucid's chief designer, did the Mazda MX-5 ND) about Lucid making a 2-door roadster/sportscar. He said they have to make SUVs and high volume cars first to make some $$$. Still, Peter's history at Lotus, Jag, making his own stuff. Then there is the team and their history. It is inevitable that it will happen.
Love my Air GT. I've taken it to Texas Hill Country, the Ozarks, and Colorado front range canyons to flog it. Was very impressed, but clearly not Sapphire level handling. Still, it's comfy on the freeway and has enough range to get me across the country to seek out fun roads with enough power left to play. That's Lucid's real difference. It doesn't give up on usability to get driving dynamics.
Jason, You should go drive the very base Lucid Pure RWD. Peter says it's a hoot and I fully expect it to be. RWD dynamics w/o having to fake it, and more range than any Tesla for $77k. Check it out.
Have you found much material comparing the experience of driving the Touring vs Sapphire? I'm aware of the extra motor for the rear, allowing for more power to be put out during hard acceleration, but beyond that, when it comes to braking and cornering, is there any difference?
@@coma13794 Assuming you watched the thing above. I keep getting banned is I'm too specific but jason talks about what he said to the other jason on their drive called two jasons. There they talk about all the things that make the Sapphire so good. All Lucids handle very well. Sapphire is next level they say.
my theory: the german car industry is wholly engineered by suppliers and not the OEMs themselves. That's what makes them not have the capacity to innovate and come up with in house solutions. It also makes them slow.
Porsche still might have a chance with their Rimac involvement. BMW, Mercedes, Audi & VW are screwed once their brand won't be enough to sell.
Drum brakes are just mechanical antilock!😂
And people compare electric cars to a microwaved steak.
For me it's never been about grip or speed, it was alway about balance, so for me Peugeot 205 Gti, it was hilarious, through it into corners too fast, tap the brakes as it understeers, the back would come around instantly which you would opposite lock and then add a boot full of throttle to balance it out on the exit, it was just so entertaining to drive, albeit a little dangerous in the wrong hands. Probably the only front drive car that usually ends up in the top handful of best handling cars.
Whoever the editor is, you had me rolling at 7:40 lol
almost spit out my food
I want a torque vectored electric gokart.
I love it when you two (especially Derek) rant about poor drivers and traffic lol
Yes and its not the Prius drive passing the truck, its the Subaru driver in the left lane tracking the rear wheels of the semi that is really messing things up.
7:40 I have no words
I have no eyes
I have two favorite handling cars that I have driven. First is the 981 Cayman GTS PDK that I raced on track and it was precise with anything that I asked of it and it is my benchmark. Second is my nb1 Miata with a hard dog roll bar, cheap tires, manual, hydraulic steering, lsd, and only weighs 2,299lbs. My miata is fun at any speed and the Cayman is precise so it all depends on what you are looking for. Great episode
As someone who's owned basically (981 Boxster S PDK) both cars, and have had the privilege to drive many other enthusiast cars with aggression, you have two excellent benchmarks. The crazy thing is that the Miata has the potential to be even sharper than the 981, because of the Boxster's strut-front suspension. With a quality set of coil-overs, modified lower ball joints, and an aggressive alignment, that Miata can turn inside its own butt.
@@MegaNardman I haven’t actually laughed loud reading a reply before, thank you for that. I definitely agree the Miata has enormous potential however I have chosen cheap tires with low grip, stock+ suspension, lsd, hard dog roll bar so that I have some chassis bracing and a little over stock suspension but low grip tires for low limits with a very progressive breakaway. This style of driving fits perfectly with how I drive in the beautiful Colorado Rocky Mountain roads.
What is your fun car now?
The problem with the Cayman is that to really use what the car can do requires a race track. It's too fast to use its potential on the classic curvy road. Hell, my 2010 Boxster S is too fast to get out of 2nd gear on most canyon roads.
@@jimiverson3085 I live in Colorado and have great mtn roads and I enjoyed the Cayman as much on mountain roads as I did on track with it.
Spent a lot of time on track on 2/4 wheels. Love them Miatas (obviously). The thing that won me over, got me to buy my Lucid GT, wasn't CEO Rawlinson's time at Lotus and Jag, wasn't their aerodynamicist poached from Red Bull F1, it was Lucid's chief designer Derek Jenkins, who was responsible for building the wonderful current generation MX-5 ND.
In the EV world, the most interesting recent announcement is the proposed Caterham. Giving up on the chase for 14 million HP, they many manage to produce a 2600 pound EV sports car. That could be the real breakthrough.
$60,000 hot hatch? Are you kidding me? How do you mass market that? Are you aware of the problems manufacturers have because they ran their prices up and dealers added even more on top of that? Now they can't sell cars or trucks. I ordered a Toyota Tundra in January 2022. It never arrived, and probably never will as they aren't calling me to apologize. They wait for me to call them every couple months.
Manufacturers are moving away from EV's because no one wants them. No one can get the materials to build them at a good price. The heavy metals used in the batteries are only mined in the countries unfriendly to the west. The US House of Representatives just passed a bill ending the date of no more ice cars.
Electric cars still have the same problems they did one hundred years ago. Sure they are quick, but my favorite cars as far as driving experience have all been older , slower cars. Some with convertible tops adding to a stimulating experience. My work vehicle is all computer screens and electronics. When I'm looking for a driving experience, I don't want a car that does the driving for me, I want a car that says have fun but it's all on you as to if you crash.
I may not reach the speeds you will, but that's ok.
S/o to the dominatrix 911 @ 7:40.
Any time we get a new Carmudgeon show makes my day.
Also...First comment!
Agree with that statement
This episode is a return to form to the original Issimi podcasts I binge watched, kudos and looking forward to more
While normally there is no other pair that dissects the meaning of all things automotive better than Jason and Derek, the discussion around handling was a bit odd. The same logic that dismissed the Stratos as good handling car was used to define traditional 911 characteristics as a mark of a good handling car? Usually handling is understood to refer to the ease of handling/manipulating of a car. By that definition, neither of them handles well, but perform very well when manipulated by an expert.
Neither are forgiving, which is IMHO also a characteristic of a well handling car. As the Lucid was per Jason´s surely unpopular, but accurate testimony. My best experiences are with light mid-engined cars with longitudinally installed engines (for ex. my Esprit S2). They are not twitchy and can be corrected mid corner, unlike transverse installations, where the polar moment is bigger and the center of gravity of the engine is usually also quite high. Perhaps, instead of talking about handling one should break this down to aviation terms: Maneuverability, controllability and stability.
To come back to the Stratos and the classic 911: Due to short wheelbase and high mounted transverse mid/rear engine, the Stratos has great maneuverability, poor stability and demanding controllability. The classic 911 has the the same general traits, due to the short wheelbase and the polar moment of a light, low mounted rear engine.
In any case, love the show. And still waiting for the Piëch episode.. 😀
44:30 Don't drive I-5. Drive 101 with Ka detection and JBV1 and 1) make better time 2) enjoy better scenery 3) not lose your mind. 28 years, 100+ trips, average speed 95-100, 1 pullover, no tickets. Take the 154 cut at SB as a time saving mountain road bonus
@33:40 this is exactly like every story of every legendary car pre 1970 (ish) of a conglomerate of 22 year olds, who just walked in with a cool idea and no exp (but end up being the moto-geniuses of their time) just to come out with a car that wins le Mans for 3 years and forces a rule/category change. Just the coolest shit ever, its chilling.
Autonomous driving modes are the future of the tuning industry, hacking the car and loading difference modes
1. Drive it like you stole it
2. Drive it like you have the Queen on board
3. Drive it like an Old School taxi driver
4. Drive it like a fanatical Hyper miler
5. Drive it like a .......
Loving the Lucid reviews but just can't afford that stuff.
Great episode, again,
31:00 The answer is yes. We reached beyond responsible means to put a Lucid in our garage (first home charge happening right now) and help get them down the path. I expected to drive B58s for the next decade but this episode among a very few others motivated us to help the seismic shift happen the right way. Also, the car is amazing. Bye bye Germans until you can beat our local bay area kids at the German game lolol
This is largely why I saw electric motors as superior to ICEs while I was still in high school in the mid 2000s. I recognized then that you could put a motor at each wheel and get superior handling than you could ever get with an ICE. I then saw that electric motors were being developed that went inside the wheel and, in my opinion, I saw the future of the perfect practical car. Motors inside the wheel maximizes space for batteries, or any other energy storage system to provide power to the electric motors, while also providing maximum internal space for passengers and cargo. Sure, electric motors inside the wheels can't provide anywhere near the power of the larger electric motors that Lucid is using but you don't need more than around 300hp in a practical car.
Also I wish I had been at that dinner as I would have spoken up with exactly what you had said here. Yeah, ok. A near 700hp motor at each wheel has the potential to be interesting but you are in a position right now to make a ~30k car to compete with a base Tesla Model 3 and/or Y and blow it/them out of the water in excellence in every metric. Why aren't you doing that and making a properly game breaking electric car for everyone? Make the modern equivalent to Issigonis' Mini.
I want to love this show, but I can’t. And this one me is the perfect example. I came to listen and learn about handling. Instead I got a 1 hour advertisement about a super car I’ll never see or drive.
These two, whom I like, too easily fall into a pompous and pretentious conversation about esoteric European cars in their conversations.
If you’ve got an encyclopedic knowledge of BMW and Mercedes, this is the show for you .
Lancer Evo VI up to IX had anti-yaw system in its central diff that could control how much agility you wanted, so that marvelous tool that they had back then was as much revolutionary as torque vectoring in Lucid. Just my opinion.
Like your content. Would you think about giving personal accounts of driving the alpha romeo 115 and 105 cars. I have read numerious accounts but its all about speed runs. I need somthing that can do 80 all day and not beat the hell out of me. I despise anything new. I mean anything.
Computers compensate for shortcomings in chassis, suspension, etc. Not unlike AI compensating for shortcomings in humans.
These guys again!!! Awesome. Hope one day I run into them when they film some reviews.
I think Jason fell in love with the company... Because this level of fanaticism is borderline crazy
Eh.. just give me something simple and well tuned. I’ll even take that tuning in different flavors. Most time is spent on the road below the limit anyways.
LET'S GOOOOOOOOOO LUCID✨️ FAMILY ❤💯🙆♂️🙋♂️🫡🥳🥳🥳🥳🎉🎉🎉🕺🕺
Traditionally minimizing weight was the method of achieving good handling but since that's gone out the window they've found ways to engineer handling into ultra heavy cars. It's impressive but it's also impressively expensive.
All I can say is tires have come a long way. How they can make these heavy cars move around is mind blowing.
Jason you’re not the only one to think that about the Merc cosworth…. Martin Brundle said something very similar.
I will never EV… regardless of driving or handling characteristics. It’s a valid perspective, so why shit on it?
Just in time for the Sapphire to make its way into Forza Horizon 5. I look forward to that being totally and definitely representative of the real thing!
Keep it up you guys. I really want that Lucid hatch now.
I'm sorry, but until I start seeing lap times, I have a hard time believing a 5k lb + vehicle will beat a 911 GT3 around a proper track.
It will beat it around the track *for a short amount of time*
How is a GT3 supposed to keep up with a 1200hp torque vectoring monster?
Not does it really matter but e.g., the latest 525hp GT3 RS beats the 2000 hp torque vectoring Rimac Nevera around the Nürburgring. Straightline speed isn’t everything… „handling“ does matter.
@@wolfganghimmelsbach6929huh. I stand corrected then. I didn't expect the Nivera to have such slow cornering speeds. On the Nurburgring a huge factor is the probably Porsche's downforce. I still think the EV's could win on a smaller track, since weight is less of a factor with a proper setup.
If it came down to which one we'd want I think we all know the answer to that.
honestly, the lucid can be the best handling, fast as hell and plenty luxurious and I still will continue to automatically write it off as any level of enthusiast car because its electric. Ill take damn near anything with a manual over that.
Give me a self driving car that can run the I5 in a convoy with other cars. Like a bullet train?
I heard a great driver once say that handling is the conversation between the driver and the car.
Guys get Rimac Nevera and Lucid on track day together 😊❤
Jason - I don't know if I'm ever going to be able to experience a Sapphire. Either from just an availability, or price to rent one. But I can get into a normal Lucid GT. How much of what you communicate about - the behavior, the tractability, the chassis balance and communication translate onto the normal cars? I'm not looking for at the limit handling because I don't drive cars like that, but for a canyon road or a 24hr experience.
I've only driven a "regular" Air once, very briefly - just the Dream (which is effectively GTP) and Sapphire for extended time. What's common to all 3 is a sense of perfect chassis tuning - responsive and natural steering, wonderful damping with no harshness or float. The regular (2-motor) Dream was... a dream on a back road. I suspect a GT will be, too.
@@TheCarmudgeonShow I only have access to what's available on Turo, so, beggars can't be choosers. Thank you! Your initial praise, plus this podcast really has influenced me to get some seat time in the Lucid any way I can.
I've been driving my Air GT for over a year now. Texas Hill Country, Ozarks, Colorado. "Only" 800hp, but even in smooth mode it just takes a stab of the 'gas' while passing to be well into 3-digit territory. highway travel is full-on Luxe, smooth and quiet. Dial up a quicker mode and everything tightens up a bit and full power becomes available. Mid-corner roll is limited but it will understeer safely at the limit of traction, not spin. Accelerating away from the apex is exhilarating and may disturb unprepared passengers. This full size car has no business handling this well. Around town and when travelling I just leave it in Smooth and cruise. It's a wonderful car.
@@Miata822 awesome review! The line that keeps getting repeated over and over from people who drive it is how well everything is tuned to deliver an amazing experience. It doesn't appear to be lacking on any front. What a treat it must be to drive. The acceleration out of a turn is where you just can't be the raw power. I drive a Honda S2k from time to time, and while it has incredible braking and cornering, and is very well balanced, all the action is in second and third gear, topping out at 89mph. You have to keep the RPM high to get any action whatsoever. It's fun, in its own way...but if you're driving somewhat casually and would like to increase your speed quickly, it's simply NOT happening without a dropping 2-3 gears and doing a couple of redline shifts as you accelerate out. That is a completely and utterly different experience. I'm looking forward to trying the Lucid way, having effortless power in reserve.
ur description just means the vectoring is tuned to ur tastes
Whole episode is a Lucid advertisement.
WTF are these inserts? 911 Punisher?! hahahah
Some time ago/in the future😂
You don’t role down the window to listen to an EV.
Autonomous cars are stupid, we need trains.
Train? After traveling 300 or 400 miles, how do you then go the last 25 miles to your ultimate exurban or rural destination?
@@williamgechtman9287 you do know that there are rural areas served by trains and there this thing called a bus that exists.
@@PLxFTW I know that there are many towns that do not have train stations. Actually, virtually *all* towns don't have train stations. The number of towns *with* train stations, divided by the *total* number of towns in the United States, gives you a ridiculously small number.
Even if you were going to one of the vanishingly small percentage of towns with a train station, "bus?" You do know that a bus does not stop at every house, right?
In exurbs and rural areas, there aren't even many bus stops. Sometimes one per small town. So how do you get from where the bus drops you off to your final destination, in the rain, in the dark, with luggage?
The last few miles are the hardest for any transportation system. Cars don't have that problem. That is why it is so difficult in to persuade people to part with them. That is why you have to come up with a solution beyond "take a bus" for the dozens of miles from the train station to that bus stop, and then you're on your own. That will never convince anyone to give up their car.
@@williamgechtman9287and somehow robot taxis are actually the answer???? sure
I've seen all your footage of the Lucid, and I want one. The problem is they cost an exorbitant amount. The base is 85k, about double the average new car price and about double the median American income. Who can afford this? (not to speak of the Sapphire trim) There are always lawyers and doctors with money, but I just don't know if there are enough of them to keep a company with one product alive.
The trickle down effect that will make EV’s fast, lightweight, and more affordable doesn’t come cheap. Hyphen was right… Lucid proves what they can design and achieve, now they just need to “print” E-SUV money to make some good electric sport cars the mid-priced market can afford, has a good range (250+ miles), and has good performance and handling.
There are more rich people than doctors and lawyers
When Jason say the EQS is top 3 terrible car, does he mean the sedan or the suv or both?
Sedan. Haven't driven the SUV yet.
I LOVE the new editing!
handling is multidimensional with an open scale.
when you talk about cars like Stratos and Carrera GT it's about character/behaviour close to, at and over the limit of heir handling, if they are gutmütig or sketchy, if they can catch or will kill you.
handlimg can be anything: easy, fast, rough, devious, hard, forgiving, sensitive, neutral, aggressive, shifty, telling, deaf, mute, tricky, transparent, contradictory...
My Monday just got a lot better as always!
Very much agree with that statement
Regarding the Corvair I would point to Julian Edgar's book "Car suspension - 120 years of ride and handling". Basically the Corvair got cost-cut the very last minute to the point where they took out components like sway bars. Then they offered something like 5 different suspension versions, fixes, variants etc. in short periods of time to fix the bad reputation. So there's more than just the "one" Corvair.
It’s funny my cousin works for Tesla and he was saying the same thing about lucid. Their car is a handling monster but it’s not as accessible as a model s or model 3. That’s where lucid needs to go. A semi affordable suv most likely to bring in money for sports cars. The way Enzo Ferrari did it. Sell cars Monday to Friday and race on the weekend
Are yall excited about the Hyundai Ioniq 5 N? My next car was going to be a GTI BUT the N seems promising for what i want/need in a daily.
Modern cars with electronic stability control systems handle wonderfully well and don't punish you for mistakes, as Jason described. I remember being absolutely floored by a 1997 BMW 740i (with 'Automatic Stability Control'), in which I felt I could do no wrong on a twisty Appalachian mountain road. So these electronic systems have now been available for over 25 years. Today, the systems are so comprehensive that, combined with electronic power steering, cars don't communicate much of anything about what is actually going on at the tire's contact patch on the road.
In contrast, a BMW e30 (for one example) is a wonderful _driver's_ car, in which you have to apply just the right combinations of steering and pedal inputs to keep it in line at the limit. The car is talking to you the whole time, giving you the confidence to proceed. If you learn how to drive it well, it's magic in the sense that the car will deliver the dynamics you are looking for and you're making it look easy to an observer in the passenger seat.
But, its semi-trailing arm rear suspension will seem evil and produce scary results if you get it wrong. Put the engine in the _back_ of the e30, and you basically get a classic, analog 911. Even more responsive, playful, and 'adjustable' dynamically if you get it right, and significantly more treacherous if you get it wrong.
So, what are you after? A car that makes you _look_ like a master, or a car in which you can actually _be_ a master? To the observer in the passenger seat, the difference will not be obvious.
@Jason and Derek: are you guys into offroading?
Matts offroad recovery is planing to do some "offroad games" and they ask viewers for suggestions for "youtubers" they'd like to see taking part in the comments.
I did write a comment suggesting you two among some others (like Jason from engineering explained), and maybe if enough people here in the comment section read this and do the same there could be some chance for that to happen?
So just in case: Sorry, it's my fault 😉
So can someone make rear axle, two-motor retrofit kit for my FWD shit box pls. with tuning
Wow Lucid, food for thought. Finally some flavour in a proposed EV world of iPads on wheels.
On “handling”, in the times of old handling was always quantified by how good the mechanicals are without electricity and cars like the GTR or Evo were not considered because of this. It would seem the method is irrelevant.
Not that I can attend but come on his birthday is this coming Sunday. Pick the spot. Or just have everyone show up at HQ in Atlanta.
Wish I could go to the Sacco event in my W123 but unfortunately my new auto insurance policy kicks in the day after. The CA auto insurance market really is fucked right now.
39:04 It adds sticktion?
I can't believe I just spent an hour of my time listening to you guys talk about some unobtainum appliance. I understand you like this dishwasher but surely an episode on handling merits mention of more than one car
46 mins of 52 min video, when Jason asks, "Ok, what do you think is the best handling car, ever?"
Handling is the characteristic that defines how pleasurable it is to take a car through a corner quickly. Good handling requires a base level of grip/adhesion but it is not fully defined by that measure. A car that is fun to toss into corners and that provides great feedback to the drive has better "handling" than a numb 1G+ grip monster with poor feel and unpredictable reactions to inputs.
Maybe this, now, is the automotive industry discovering the real advantage of electric drivetrains: it is not one or two G acceleration, it is the advantage of fine, per-wheel, control that was never before possible.
The best handling car I ever drove was a BMW 2002. It was also the lightest car I ever drove. Not a coincidence!
I'd like to listen to a discussion about the variation of handling among mid-engine cars. I've only driven porsche 987 cars, and not really at the limit, but I recall them seeming pretty friendly. Is that true? And how do they compare to MR2s, Evoras, etc.?
Would love to see a comparison of the Lucid with the NEVS Emily GT
Thx for the car pics
Nice episode and quality work as always! It would be nice if we could get an episode on the current state of Modern Mercedes Benz
I had to rewatch the punished part because I thought I was seeing things, that was hilarious, hell yeah video editor! 7:35
Fingers crossed Gravity becomes Lucid's Cayenne.
44:30 Damn, I sure do enjoy the Rechtsfahrgebot in Germany.
How long to replace the batteries? I feel like the book time for this should be stated for all electric cars.
Just in time for my evening beer! Cheers!
Lol what time zone are you in? I can start drinking now, but will mess with my morning soberness.
@@MidnightBenz eastern EU (Romania) - it's 7 p.m here, adequate time for cracking a cold one. 🍻
@@mistreku Bunã frate!
@@MidnightBenz Hai noroc! You were right about the morning. 🥴
@@mistreku hahaha, o cafea sau douã ajutã.
Please tell me there's video for Jason's Lucid lap.
noone should need speedlimits on the motorway under the right conditions
As much as I have zero enthusiasm for it, hey, enthusiast company, wish them well. That said, they *really* have to start getting them out there before they shut down and none of it matters. Taycan might be worse (to be fair, it's a little older) but in most major cities you'll see 20+ of them a day. I see one or two Plaids daily. Does Lucid even sell outside of the US, because I have never seen one.
They're a smaller company and they're just getting started to comparing with Porsche and Tesla is a bit unfair but I get your point; Tesla started not long ago and are now everywhere. FWIW I've gone from seeing none until a few months ago, to seeing one occasionally, but when I went out yesterday I saw 3 or 4 of 'em. I know they've been pushing their base model prices lower relatively recently; seems to be starting to work. How it will all scale remains to be seen.
Oh boy Jason has such a talent keep listening to the story. 🎊
We're gonna need to see a video of that T9 chicane action...