I think an interesting counterpoint to this is the concept of the "simple meal made well." Ideas, whether they be in media, food, art, or other forms, are come up with, attract attention, and then people put their own spin on them. And they become so ubiquitous and varied in quality that folks get bored with them, but then one comes along every so often that gets the fundamentals down really well and gets a lot of positive attention because the basics are so good and reminds people of the original games that gave them that original hedonistic adaptation.
Came to say this. The endless drive for uniqueness and novelty seems like it would come at the cost of iteration on a solid foundation. I know what I like and I tend to pursue it aggressively. I'm not looking to have my mind blown when I visit the ice-cream section of the supermarket - I'm looking for my favourite treat. If someone comes out with a new variation on that favourite - yay! If not, the usual is right there and I'll enjoy it as always.
Although I also love the "simple done well" mentality, I think it is not a good counter point to hedonic adaptation. I might be wrong but I assume this refers to things like, for example, having a plain bowl of oatmeal with no sugar and learning to enjoy it anyways even though it's bland and boring. Is this what you are talking about? If not, then my mistake. The "simple done well" idea just means you're showing appreciation and gratitude for the level of enjoyment and pleasure you are capable of receiving AFTER hedonic adaptation has occurred. Note that after hedonic adaptation has occurred, there is still a baseline level of enjoyment and pleasure that you are capable of having. Showing gratitude and appreciation for that will not increase the pleassure received, but instead will make you a happier, calmer, more content person overall. So appreciating the simple things is a very good thing!!! It just doesn't change anything about hedonic adaptation, which is ok since the baseline level of pleasure after adaption occurs is perfectly fine. With that said, if you "hedonically adapt" to video games, they should still be pleasurable to some degree even after fully 100% adapting. So this doesn't seem like the reason why someone would stop enjoying video games.
This video gave me an idea for a story for a game... A sci-fi future where you can save your memories onto a drive of some kind and then wipe them from your mind to enable you to experience things for the first time again. The intent of course being that you'd put them back later. Then there could be a scenario where someone's memories are stolen, or even you get someone else's memories put into your head and you have to solve a mystery related to it.
You always trying to introduce new features is probably the main reason your games are so memorable. I've looked at the article called "List of video games considered the best" on Wiki, and in the 90s there were like 8-10 great games released per year, while in 2010s it is only 2-3 per year. And, IMO, this because back then the developers were more frequently introducing new gameplay (either via design ideas or new technologies), while now it is just sequels with more or less the same gameplay.
This is exactly why I think good modding capabilities and a dedicated community are essential for a game to survive. In XCOM 2, my most played game, I have spent more than half my time playing with dozens to hundreds of mods.
I looked at my Alternative Mod Manager and I have 250 mods, either for visuals (taken from other gamer running on Unreal Engine) or voice-packs. Out of 300+ hours in game (per Steam information) I spent roughly 40+ in Character creation.
Comedy writers who I like have spoken about no longer being able to laugh at things, even though they do know they're funny. Or, horror writers who are able to write excellent horror but no longer find horror fiction all that scary. We reckon with things, solve creative puzzles, and then, they lose that point of interest for us. Like, I used to draw very disturbing and surreal images because I was working through some issues, but I'm much happier now, so I can no longer draw them anymore. Perhaps the focus should shift from "new" to "craft." Once one knows what works, then focus on the craft. You may make the same thing, but the level of quality is what separates them. Twilight and I Am Legend are both vampire stories, but only one of these truly shines in how well crafted it is.
i feel like with bigger timelines of development and subsequently bigger budgets all these companies are less and less willing to risk it (which is understandable from a financial standpoint) so they opt for the tried and tested game mechanics and so many games feel so similar. Compared to the sheer scale of unique and innovative games we were getting in early 2000s nowadays its not the same (although games are bigger and prettier now which is good, but they often repeat the same formula to avoid risks and try to appeal to everyone).
I think this is part of why I find myself gravitating to indie titles more. I find that lots of smaller teams (usually teams of 5-20) tend to make games that are both unique enough to keep me engaged and large enough for me to really sink my teeth into.
I guess you can call it a new twist on the formula rather than brand new ideas, but the way you are playing with and against your character's brain in Disco Elysium felt very novel to me and actually got me super excited in a way other RPGs haven't in a long time. Combine that with the exquisite dialogue, setting, and music and it's definitely my favorite game in years!
@@Pavel-wj7gy It's much easier to be experimental with indie games, but I think the idea that only indies are innovative falls on its face in the aftermath of Baldur's Gate 3. This game had a massive budget and a ton of time spent on it, and although it's a familiar type of game, it did innovate in various areas and is insanely popular.
@@kevinjohnson495 To me, Baldur's Gate 3 is not innovative. It's just a CRPG made with an unprecedented amount of resources and budget. Simply having a massive amount of resources and budget at your disposal is not innovative or creative, it's just being lucky enough to have those things. The game is good don't get me wrong but it is not anything fresh or new that blows my mind.
@@DraftMatters Well, it's not reinventing the genre necessarily, but a creative work can be a masterclass of an established formula rather than completely new. However, the extra actions in BG3 like jump (verticality), throw object, and other PNP-type immersive environmental interactions are truly innovative -- on top of their existing DOS innovations in surfaces, which plenty of CRPGs don't even have (e.g. being able to burn oil/acid surfaces, freeze water surfaces, etc.) . They really came closer than any other CRPG I've played to recreating that PNP level of freedom of action. I also don't think there has ever been a D&D 5e game done on this scale, so that alone is unprecedented. They actually reworked the 5e systems to something that they believed to be more fun, and given that 5e is not a very popular system yet BG3 is insanely popular, they seem to have succeeded big time.
I have a very loving and friendly female cat, and my eyes get full of hairs everyday, to the point I have generated some kind of defense/resistance to hairs/eyelashes/dirt/sand and mostly won't notice it until I see a mirror and my eyes are like a dirty cat sandbox.
Thank you for this video, really interesting stuff, very educational. I’ve got depression and sometimes I get what’s called anhedonia which is the clinical term for being unable to find things enjoyable. It’s been a good long time since I really enjoyed playing a computer game, the initial enjoyment fades fast. I do have one idea for a game I’d like to make, a game that’s sort of like if you took the old Kubrick movie Barry Lyndon and turned that into a game. But I don’t think anyone would want to risk any money on it, and I’m not sure if it’s anything someone other than me will enjoy. It would be a game where the goal is to lie and trick people and use social interaction instead of physical violence to destroy your enemies.
Hedonic Adaptation is a cool way to describe a set of decisions for a video and could absolutely describe your own mind as a useful idea. You are also describing getting older and having to confront a rapidly corporatizing work space with an even higher drive for profit. (I'm old, this isn't ageism). Its cool that you want to branch out. I don't make games so I obviously don't have your level of expertise and experience. As a simple player I tend to try throw myself into different genres as often as possible. I play a lot of games and I've found that constantly engaging with things that work differently helps to stop me feeling jaded. That is partly because my moods aren't that stable so having more than one game on the go at once (not literally at the same time) can really fit well. Separately I wish I had one, my mood flies around on an hour to hour basis.
I have to say that to a degree I share your view on modern games, at least in the AAA space. They all look very shiny, but so many at the core are just different skins of the Unreal Engine. That's why almost all new games I've played in years are indie games from people who in lieu of a big team and publisher backing have to rely on being clever to get noticed. Lucas Pope is a prime example; Papers Please and Return Of The Obra Dinn are prime examples of excellent new ideas executed incredibly well. Other than him, Baba Is You is another relatively recent quite unique title. Then with a slightly bigger team and budget we have Outer Wilds, which to be frank put the rest of the gaming industry to shame. Wholly unique, intriguing, innovative and breathtaking. And then they did it again in the DLC Echoes Of The Eye, just to make sure everyone knew it wasn't a fluke. If you haven't played, Tim, please do!
There are only so many original and novel things to make. People have been saying there's nothing original under the sun for years, yet sometimes new things pop up from the aether. Making completely fresh things is very hard and rare. Lightning in a bottle. I've never heard of hedonic adaptation before, it is realpy interesting. Could be the reason some people my age feel like they've grown out or are sick of video games. Thanks Tim for the new information.
Have you ever played Rimworld or Dwarf Fortress? And if you have, what’s your opinion on those games, particularly their use of extreme amounts of generated content?
Great video as always, Tim! You pointed out that some features you put in your games are features or mechanics you hadn't seen before in computer games specifically, which makes me wonder: would you ever want to work on tabletop RPGs? Going back, in a way, to where it all started for you?
I came up with the idea for a game but when I put together the GDD, I became overwhelmed by how ambitious it was. So I decided to do a scaled back version earlier in the story, so the less ambitious game I'm making is a prequel to my dream game. That way, I'm pretty sure I'll be making two games in the same IP.
Q: are there any ambient songs that can move you to tears? Not only do I enjoy it for work, but Brian Eno's "The Big Ship" always taps into something primal and can move me to tears each time I hear it. Would be cool to hear you gab about your love of ambient music. Here's another song that just came on from my library with a similar feel, it's by the Nine Inch Nails "Hope We Can Again"
Kenshi (an indie game by Lo-Fi Studios) I believe is a game that breaks out of Hedonic Adaptation. It's one of the most original RPG sandboxes I've seen in a long time, both mechanically, and its setting. I would pay money to watch Tim do a playthrough of it, and talk about the mechanics in real time. It was also inspired by the origianl Fallout both gameplay wise, and tonally.
Would you consider either 1) an arrangement like what Stephen King does with his dollar babies, where you can adapt a story of his for $1, or 2) some kind of educational challenge, where you post one of your game ideas and a bunch of people jam it out? Could be a really cool use for your ideas. Some kind of game incubator. I think you would be a great mentor for up and coming devs to bounce their ideas off of.
Jonathan Blow has said things of similar sentiment (though not so nicely) on many occasions; he's bored by all the samey games and always strives to make something unique. I think this massively impacts his productivity, as so far in quite a few years he's only released two games, Braid and The Witness, but in my opinion those are also two quite novel games in certain areas. The Witness is a game I adore. It doesn't have a story, just lots of different people's serious ideas about the meaning of life, science and religion, from many different parts of the world throughout history. These ideas are also sometimes in strong opposition to each other. At no point does the game provide an answer, it's just meditation. Sadly I think a lot of people didn't have the patience to genuinely digest it. Also the puzzles were just great.
Tim, I can recommend three games by the same developer: Voidspire Tactics, Alvora tactics and Horizon Gate. The developer is currently working on a new title Kingsvein and it’s on my wishlist next to Baldur’s Gate 3
However unlikely the scenario that I both finish making a game, and having Tim end up playing it, I sincerely hope my odd style of art and storytelling is engaging or at least serviceable as being unique. Not specifically for Tim, but his words have a lot of weight to me having been a fan of nearly every game I've played of his involvement.
This is the reason why I like Bethesda with what they did on Fallout 4 and incorporated building/settlement management into an RPG, it really expanded on the whole RPG element (Not in the traditional sense) But this adds something new on top of what we already have. I love the roleplaying aspect of being able to become a farmer that can cultivate your own farm then setup supply lines to other settlements. a lot of people criticize it for lacking lots of certain details, but they can always expand on it even more in future installments. People need to realize if something is missing in a game its not Bethesda's fault... lets be realistic, if they was constantly adding new ideas they would never release a new game they would be constantly forever working on peoples expectations. People should never set expectations for a new installment of a game but instead go in with an open mind and they should not follow other peoples reviews, because then there not being true to there own experiences, there just living through other peoples experiences which isn't good at all for forming your own opinion of a game. I say be happy for what it is personally. I don't understand why people hate on newer games, if they don't like it why don't they just play the old ones its not like they have overwritten them by any means. it always boggles my mind when a lot of critics say I wish this new game was more like the first game or it returned to its roots, if that's the case why don't they just play the first one? instead of trashing the new ones. i feel like some of the gaming community is grossly incompetent as well with what they want, one minute some people say they want new features and new innovations but next they want it to be the same? its contradicting sometimes and confusing.
Honestly, I think the Minecraft clone/"settlement system" of FO4 would have made more sense as a "Sims" game unto itself. It doesn't really belong in a Fallout game from many people's perspective because they want to play Fallout as "the Lone Wanderer", exploring the world and seeing what kind of trouble they can get into, not babysitting everyone in the Wasteland. That's much of the reason why Sim Settlements is such a popular mod. So many people just don't want to deal with that system. A lot of players had nothing to do with it, especially on their first playthroughs, just tossing up a couple of turrets and beds for the folks in Sanctuary and being on their way. They might have delved a little deeper into it when they got bored or realized the game was all but entirely empty of interesting content and used the building system as a kind of game unto itself just as the more prominent builders do in Fallout 76. It's what they spend all their time doing in the most recent {gulp} "Fallout" games because it provides them a bit of an outlet for their own creativity. Ergo, the better sense to make it a game unto itself. On a side note, Bethesda isn't implementing "new ideas." They're doing exactly what Todd Howard said they're doing: "We look to see what works in other games and try and build on that." That's why every "new" Bethesda game is juggling several subgames at once. They look to see what "works," i.e. has been financially successful, elsewhere and implement a version of it in their games to try and appeal to as many *wallets* (as opposed to human beings) as possible. I'll be honest with you: saying others are merely "hating on the game" when they're voicing criticism of any kind of any game is not cool, regardless how many times we've heard people say, "Stop hating on the game!"
@@lrinfi("I'll be honest with you: saying others are merely "hating on the game" when they're voicing criticism of any kind of any game is not cool, regardless how many times we've heard people say, "Stop hating on the game!"
@@sharpedog666 There is no constructive criticism to be offered to the gaming community, which is just as responsible for the sad state of affairs as the industry itself. One could call for a boycott of this or that publisher or what have you to try to put a stop to the worst of the worst industry trends, but that's about it and few, if any, would respond because too many people think everything is hunky-dory or insist that "it's just you," perhaps especially players who have yet to experience realities such as "money doesn't grow on trees" and who may actually have enablers putting up the funds as opposed to, say, parenting well. Gaming addiction is pretty obviously a very serious problem and the industry is all-in on the idea of making games as addictive as possible and attempting to disguise the mechanisms it's using, especially given that the "loot box" fiasco pretty obviously blew up in its face. I could occasionally phrase public concerns better, but it makes me angry that the industry -- as every other -- is so greedy, it simply doesn't care about the lives its ruining to make a buck and, of course, refuses to regulate itself as long as it can get away with it. That's why I think it's going to take government regulation of the industry to put a stop to it and if the industry doesn't want that, it might want to think about putting a stop to it itself.
Probably not the first one to say this but have you tried any of Fromsoft's Souls games? They've managed to change enough of the things you mention that it feels like some sort of new, at least the first time you play one. The character stories you find, especially in Elden Ring for me, were often touching or tragic, in part because they're not overwritten. It feels like player character focused, more that you're just experiencing these worlds amid their dissolution, whatever the PC's potential is to change what happens. The intensely actiony nature can be a barrier (it would be hard to fully translate it into something turn-based, but some elements could derive from it and still work I think), and they don't do much in the way of laying out what systems do what in a way that can be frustrating, especially in some of the earlier games, but I love them dearly. There's also a good deal of environmental and situational storytelling and humor that you don't often see elsewhere. But I get where you're coming from, it takes a lot more for me to want to invest part of myself into a game after many decades of playing them. A lot of the bigger name games seem like they're trying to please too many people and so I find myself withdrawing despite liking how pretty they look or whatever. When I learned that Starfield may not have a very detailed trading system my enthusiasm dropped a bit, which is good because my current machine probably can't run it anyway :) I feel like your dread of the bigger market questions seem to mean a smaller group might feel better (with those sort of questions reserved for later, maybe), but with that comes the need for funding, time, the right group alchemy, and other stuff you've talked about. Even crowdfunding isn't the panacea it seems to be. Whatever the case, your videos have been inspiring, and I'm glad you're making them!
Hi Tim, this is my first time commenting on one of your videos but you talking about hedonic adaptation (and mainly the mention of it when grieving someone who has passed) made me think of this question for you.... What do you want your legacy to be when you pass on? Of course everyone's first thought is "Fallout" but that's just too simple and too easy. What do you want to be remembered for other than fallout itself? How has that changed since you were younger? Thanks Tim!!!
I think a large part of this is growing up and experiencing a lot of what a medium has to offer, and reacting to that by trying to be more involved with any individual piece of art as a structure of systems instead of as a whole. I think people believe, somewhat falsely, that understanding a medium such as games, books, plays, or movies, and being able to deconstruct them will allow them to recreate feelings and experiences from previous media consumption, or find new media that can offer them those same experiences. Viewing a piece of media as a structure of language, scenes, systems, acts, and other component pieces requires that the viewer analyze themselves as another component piece in the structure of the larger work. Instead of interacting with a work intuitively by engaging with the piece on an emotional level, these structural viewers hold that investment hostage, only rationing it out when they perceive the work to have earned it. Instead of playing the role of an audience member, they play a designer, who instead of receiving an honest viewing of a work, attempts to inject themselves in the art in order to mold the experience to match their expectations. Nowadays, games have so many systems or have systems that are so refined that people have to learn how to interact with them. Gamers will often feel like they cannot enjoy a game until they reach a level of proficiency in their interaction with these systems. The simple and highly stylized character platformer and adventure games of the 90s and early 2000s are gone, and have been replaced with structures of systems that do not entertain as much as attempt to construct an experience around the viewer.
I've been a gamer all my life and I also feel like I've seen everything games have to offer. It's very rare to see a game do anything that's actually new, they mostly just do the same thing as the games that came before, they just do it different.
A question that relates to this to some degree: Where do you think most value is created in a game, as in, between design/mechanics, art/visual, writing/storytelling, visceral aesthetic, so on. And how has that changed over the course of several decades. When I say "value" I don't necessarily mean monetary, but even just general "good" for everything, anything that may move an individual the most, or even the medium as a whole
Yea unique things are really hard to come by. I'm always on the lookout for games that do different. Gameplay-wise, there's still stuff that surprises me. I've still not seen any game do RTS units like Impossible Creatures did. I've never seen a game do investigative mystery like Obra Dinn. There are a number of interesting mechanics, stat systems, and quest formats out there that I've mentioned in past comments. I feel like there's still a lot of innovation on that front. Narratively, however, we're in a valley, or perhaps a pit. Innovation in writing is rare, and usually focused on tropes and trends. When writing a story, people use building blocks they're already familiar with- it's hard to do different. It's why if you look at new landmark eras in media history, that's where you see new ideas- the 2000s for video games were one such period. But, inevitably, things settle down. Investors want more sure projects, creators have a harder time thinking of things outside their previous experiences. There are some that have unique settings, lore, or narrative devices; games like Kenshi and Dark Souls putting the story in the background through passive dialogue and environmental storytelling instead of forcing the player into it, or universes like w40k and NieR having so much depth their lore that most players will never see the bottom, giving a much larger sense to the world. These things give me hope for the future, and I'll do my best to bring that future a bit closer.
Recently read a great article (from 2012) about how "Mystery is a lost art in videogames". Publishers and devs push more and more towards known systems and heavy handholding so that the players can experience as much content as possible and have an easy onboarding experience. I think this contributes to that feeling of "I've seen this before" as there's not even room now for players exploring the systems and world of a game on their own. Its like the game is afraid of being missunderstood or having a voice of its own. Ofc this is all tangential to Hedonic Adaptation, specially in regards to stuff like reused NPCs, but I think it contributes a bit towards players growing tired at a faster rate and creativity in general in the AAA industry being at a low point.
Hi Tim. That’s interesting. The strongest reactions I had to in recent years were Dark Souls and Outer Wilds - precisely because they provided me with a very new experience. I don’t think I am kind of personality who gets bored - I could play the same genre and see the same designs over and over again. But it irks me when I see stuff that I have sen done better I otherwise a decent title. Baldur’s Gate3 is my most recent example (and Elden ring before that) - good games, exceptional in some aspects, but there are bits of those games that I have seen done better before. I think that’s why I favour smaller, focused titles. Give me one thing that’s the best I have ever seen, rather than wide choice of fine/serviceable mechanics - I played enough games to simply not be impressed by those.
I would like to see you play some of your games. You probably have already said no. But it would be nice. I feel like you playing it is going to trigger some fun memories that you could share.
Hey Tim, really like your games and i appreciate your stories, insights and suggestions. Hope all goes well for you. One thing i wonder, in case you still rummage through the comments, is your perspective on Chris Avellone as a person and as a writer/designer. How were your interactions with him on a personal and professional level? What was your reaction to the allegations about him which were retracted earlier this year? Would you consider having a chat with him on this channel like you did with some of your past co-workers? Considering your past and present ties with Obsidian and Chris Avellone's less than cordial seperation from the company I'm not really expecting much but I'll take my chances. Thanks in advance.
Tim, have you considered making mods for existing games, e.g, Fallout, Elder Scrolls? I know - why make mods when you make GAMES! But it would be a wonderful way to add new unique things you want to see in games, without the fuss and investment (time & money) of full on game dev.
I can see Tim puttering around with mods, maybe when he's a little further past the "semi-retirement" stage or even before. It's like the old saying, "You can take the boy out of the mountains, but you can't take the mountains out of the boy." Well, you can take Tim away from furnaces of creativity, but you can't take the creativity out of Tim. :)
It's funny you mention games with new features, concepts etc. most of what I see (mainly on Steam) is the same ideas repeated over and over and something that is literally the same as a previous iteration has as much, if not more success than the thing it took from. It's amazing. Not necessarily complaining because just because something has old ideas doesn't mean it can't be enjoyable, but some of these games are surpassing an identical game more than the original. A lot of that has to do with UA-cam influence of the big gaming channels. I'm rambling.
Do you think this sometimes has to do with the new game just doing it better in terms of UI, story, character progression, etc? I'm thinking of CRPG games, but I think this also applies to turn based wargames on hexagonal maps. There is a basic formula, but sometimes one game's execution is better than other, older games because they slightly tweaked the genre's formula in a way that improved game play.
@@ProfBoggsI think Steam is just so over saturated with genres that they bleed into one another at a glance. That's why it's so hard for me to find interesting games to try. It doesn't help that a lot of highly reviewed games on Steam are memes. Can you suggest a good place to find quality games? I'm at a loss. I want to find obscure and interesting indie games.
Whenever games begin to feel rote to me, I try to seek out games that boil down some particular interaction I enjoy. For example, visual novels for the pure narrative kick or early access games with placeholder everything but intricate mechanics and gameplay.
Tim, I don't know how to break this to you, but 2023 has already been one of the best years for CRPGs in history. If Starfield and the Cyberpunk rework/DLC are as good as they're rumoured to be, then I think it might even be the best year for CRPGs ever. If you don't enjoy Baldur's Gate 3, Jagged Alliance 3, or Diablo 4, then not only does the genre not have a niche for you, I think you may just be burnt out on computer roleplaying games altogether :) 37-year-old here, by the way. I remember other great years for games in the past. This has been a truly historic year.
Surprisingly, I'm more excited for games with time, especially this year. I think Age of Wonders 4 and its race creation and race transformation mechanics is very novel (talk about that technological enablement) and the game shapes up to be the best 4x ever. BG3 despite some challenges is the best rpg experience probably ever, carried by great bold writing and content ocean (it loosely reminds me of Arcanum in this regard). Finally there are games that challenge the greatest even in well established genres. When it comes to deep mechanical innovations, the indie scene has some good offerings. I'm still amazed by a little known title Unexplored 2, but there are many really cool titles available.
I understand! It was at least an interesting journey playing a game like Fallout 1. I had a lot of fun, and it influenced me a lot. It was kind of unreal to see it grow into an AAA title. It was an honor to play your game, and I'm glad to know that you developed it with a great team. I wish you a fulfilling and peaceful life, Tim. I have to move on, goodbye.
Interesting topic and thank you for sharing. My two cents on the matter: I'm not sure what you're referring to about not being too excited about current games is quite the same as hedonic adaptation. What you seem to be saying - and I apologize if I'm getting that wrong - is that you're not really excited by games to the same extent as you used to be, because they're not doing much in terms of being genuinely innovative or fresh. Games are becoming overly familiar - as genres and design paradigms are established and increasingly commercialized. As you mentioned, hedonic adaptation is about slowly returning to a "baseline" after whatever event that pulls you above or below has lost its initial impact. That's not really the same thing, from my perspective. I'm 46 years old - and I've been quite the gamer ever since I was about 6 years old. I, too, was always more excited about "the next big thing" than simply replaying similar games over and over - though there are genres that will satisfy me with less innovation - because I love them so much (immersive sims might be my number one genre - which is just typical, as there are so few of them, and they tend to not do well commercially). On the other hand, I have several friends that seem very different in that way, at least to me. They seem quite satisfied with either replaying the same games over and over (some have thousands of hours in a handful of games and that's basically all they play) - or they just stay within a very narrow spectrum in terms of genre or feature-set. Seems to me they like certain feature-sets more than the actual games themselves - though that might not be accurate or fair. It's just my perspective, limited by my own preferences and ways of looking at whatever it is that games are or have to offer. However, for me, having probably "peaked" in terms of passion and pure enjoyment of games around the age of 18-20 (mid-late 90s - where so many of my favorite design tenets seem to have originated, including some you were definitely involved with) - I'm still chasing the next big title with some great difficulty. So I'm lucky if I get a single game each or every other year that even approaches giving me the kind of enjoyment I was fortunate enough to experience - seemingly more frequently - all those years ago. I consider it to be less about hedonic adaptation, and more about oversaturation - and likely a natural part of growing older and having seen and cared so much in such a focused way. Games were always "the thing" for me - even if I've enjoyed other things as well, naturally. I've consumed and consumed - and it's really no surprise that it takes more and more to satisfy. I don't know if that's true for you - or others - but I just wanted to add to the discussion. Thank you again for your interesting videos. Oh, and Starfield is probably "the one" game for me this year. Well, it's the game that has the biggest chance of bringing me back to the kind of experience that got me so hooked in the first place. That, or possibly Phantom Liberty :)
Interesting video Tim. Have you considered making smaller one-person games Tim? Seems like it would be easier to explore new features ideas with something short like the old Flash games that used to be everywhere.
Hi Tim :) I have found the same thing with music lately, and it's hard to get inspired as a result. I had two questions if they're interesting enough: The first is if you feel there's a way (as developers and players) to reset those expectations we all grow into - I've found this is doable with music by hopping genres, but can't get the same effect with games. The second was about how to challenge players with unconventional ideas, but keep them on board for the ride? Arcanum and Fallout really threw some conventions and genre tropes out the window, but I never felt it was antagonistic to me as a player. I'd love to hear if you have an ethos on how far you can push things, or if it's trial and error, learning from mistakes etc. :) Thank you as always, I always learn or come away with something. :)
9:40 In regards to some of the critics or other folks pointing out similarities to previous games, that sounds similar to literary criticism as well but perhaps the medium of video games is so different compared to prose/novels which are usually a solo affair compared to Games' team and large organization collaborations to produce games it makes it a bit more disappointing? I tend to play games a little differently, though. Games I gravitate towards in the last 15 years will have me playing them for years trying to find extra nooks and crannies or just enjoy the story so much I will outright replay over and over.
Just for sake of trying to highlight some positive examples from the last five or so years, I wonder how many of us would say that there was something genuinely new or fresh in titles like Return of the Obara Dinn or Disco Elysium.
In a sense, it actually is. The use of the word within terms like "hedonic treadmill" is actually closer to the word's original meaning than people's general use of the word is. The ancient Greek philosophers *were* more focused on mental gratification than on "debauchery": en DOT wiktionary DOT org/wiki/hedonism#Noun
Have you branched out into indie games at all? I've found that the games on sites like Itch can afford to take really wild risks because their teams are so small. RPGs are less popular there than puzzle or shoot-em-up games, but there are still plenty!
Disco Elysium is the game every rpg developer should play, I strongly recommend as I love most of your work and I've watched every video on this channel -- you'll like it (apart from the trop in the very beginning)
It's a very good use of that trope at least. It's connected to the character's identity and there's tons of interactions where you have to reckon with what your character did before the game started. But instead of being weirdly detached from that relationship (a la Ulysses in New Vegas) it emphasizes your actions and puts more of an onus on you to tell the story you want from that earlier experience
I do have to agree a lot of games these days are just "X but with Y". See roguelikes, card mechanics, etc. But I do still see wonderful games with innovative mechanics like that one with the photos-turn-into-real-objects mechanic. Would be neat if you could ever go over that idea book you have, new perspectives are always great.
Yeah, but it's a lot easier to do something never-done-before when your medium only has a 10-year history than it is when your medium has a 50-year history.
If it took you this many years to feel as you do about games, I would consider yourself better than most. I feel like a lot of people are jaded in terms of playing, myself included (Im only 26).
i know you've said you werent gonna review games but i have been curious to hear if you played daggerfall, the scope of that game continues to blow my mind, too bad its one of those things where they really could only be that experimental in the 90s and they didnt have the tech to back up their ambitions side note for anyone reading this, check out daggerfall unity :)
I know you don't review games or talk about other peoples games really, but I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on Death Stranding and its mechanics.
Wow i didnt know there was an actual term for this human adaptness to stuff. As someone who tries to enjoy and appreciate the most out of any kind of entertainment , this has been easily the biggest enemy of mine. I detest how easily and often i get used to graphics or big fantastic video game worlds , amazing art styles and even the simplest jokes in comedies.
Im curious about like massive games in call of duty when theres an outcry in change but then when they change stuff its “too much” change and they want the older systems back. Why does that happen?
I never dislike a game because it's not original or doesn't have anything new in it, but I do notice it and it can be a talking point. I don't think it's fair to criticise a game for not being original or not having new features - unless it's bad in terms of actual gameplay, or the graphics are terrible, or it's somehow cynical - because there are only a limited number of ideas and techniques that can be used in a game. For example: I really liked the Legend of Grimrock games, which were not very original, but advances in technology allowed them to be more atmospheric than previous tile-based Dungeon Master clones. They also had very well thought-out control systems which made them very quick to play, and the sequel expanded on those features a great deal. I find that I can play any kind of game - old or new - as long as it's responsive and absorbing. If a game does have something new, then of course that gives it extra brownie points, but expecting something new every time, and complaining about it when that isn't the case isn't fair. What I do like about sequels, though, is that it gives the devs a chance to refine a game even more.
In my case I am very selective about the games in wich I'm gonna invest my time, for example in the last 10 years I can probably name a list of 10 games that have come in that period wich I like to play and there is nothing else outside of it. That been said, my problems start when at the story / world level, developers reuse and repeat the same argument over and over again. I'll give ya two examples of games I have problems (yet still play) and games that I will never have a problem: The problematic ones 1) Fallout 2: Is the same story all over again, your place is goin' "bye-bye", find the shenannigan, kill the evil overlord with an evil (and way more stupidier) plan. Despite the vastness of the game itself, the fact that the main structure at world level is tied to this premise, means that you are FORCED to travell thru it if you wanna complete the game. 2) Elder Scrolls 4 - Oblivion: Leaving aside the constant bugs, crashes, defective aliased LODs and the requirement of at minimum 20 mods to make it work, feel and give somewhat the same experience that the previous games did, here we are with the same problem, the main arc. While at the side quest level is all good.... for the most part, the main story (specialy that overly forced beginning) is rushed so hard that there is no chance to actualy take your time to contemplate it. In Morrowind you had your time to stop and think, even the characters told ya to take it slow, but here is all about finishing it so fast that by the time you think there is something o value into it, it already finishes in one broken scripted sequence that I can only reffer as a "blue balls moment" considering all the build up. A bonus to this can be Neverwinter Nights 2: Seriously, 10 minutes into the game and I already know the name of the main villain?... give me a break. If it wasn't for Neeshka I wouldn't have finished (let alone replay) that train wreck. The non-problematic ones 1) Darklands: Yes is old, yes is cumbersome, cryptic, obscure and constantly shows how much it hates you, still it has a story that isn't forced down your throat, based on folklor that was belived to be the real world, in an historical fidelity that takes you in if you give it a chance. I love how punishing yet rewarding it can be and while is hard, there is no cheap moves on it, if you get yourself in a bad spot, is your fault. 2) Septerra Core - Legacy of the Creator: A lost gem of a game, it is one of those strange experiments to mix JRPGs with CRPGs of the late 90's and it works really well. Of course the protagonist if neutral good, of course the villain is chaotic stupid, but the world building, man... Septerra is a place that can give Arcanum a run for its money at that level, specialy becasue is so alien that when your reach the ending you realize that you are seeing the final cinematic of something that you didn't knew was there all the time, still it makes all the sense in the world once you roll back your thoughts off the travel you just did. Long story short, I like challenging ideas, even if the game is broken I will find a way to experience them, but the overall point is that I am SOOO TIRED of the "save the world" motivation, specialy when is forced so hard that everything else feels 200% more fluent and belivable (lookin at you Pillars of Eternity 2).
Hedonic adaptation sounds very much like the concept of homeostasis in healthcare. Homeo = human, stasis = static, as in, the tendency and search for balance or stability by humans. Lets say, knock on wood, somebody gets an illness that really affects their life, in due time, through homeostasis, they will establish a new livable normality.
There are tons of indie devs making great and unique games. I gave up on AAA games, specially multi-player. Last one I played was Doom and the one before that Skyrim.
Tim! Discovered you recently. Have you played any horror games? I'm trying to find new interesting games too... I recently played Signalis, and it was fun spooky! I'm squeamish about horror, but it gave me a new and interesting take on a genre I hadn't touched on. You sound like you're burnt out on RPGs. If you haven't already, You should touch on genres and developers you'd initially reject. I'm really glad that I got to play something outside of my comfort zone.
Hey Tim can you speak on the atmosphere of a game development studio during post-launch of a new game? What does the team work on or prioritize at that point? Thank you!
Even if you dont "review" or share your thoughts on it, I'd love to encourage you to play LISA: The Painful RPG Talk about a reactive, completely innovative RPG...
Daggerfall Unity is a good way to experience TES: Daggerfall now. It is basically feature complete with the original version, along with bug-fixes. TES: Arena is... well... kind of a proto-Daggerfall. The randomly generated overworld is interesting to roam around in for a bit and the main dungeons are kind of neat to mess around in with the Passwall spell to remove walls but other than that I found it kind of meh now. My favourite is still TES: Morrowind. I think Strategy games suffer a lot from this. There was an interesting development with "Supreme Commander" and it's huge battles with production lines, splitting the screen up into multiple views, adjacency bonuses and so on but no other game really took it further.
If you're looking for novel games: have you played these games? Disco Elysium (Don't let the amnesia trope scare you off. _Everything_ this game does is unusual for the RPG genre - _especially_ the amnesia.) Pathologic 2 (Pathologic 1 is not bad, but I think Pathologic 2 is a better starting point: it keeps all of its predecessor's Eurojank weirdness while improving on the writing, voiceovers and gameplay) Fallen London and its spinoffs (A browser MMO, which has decent writing in its earliest content and got exceptionally well-written content in the last few years. Its setting is as compelling as it is unusual - but you'll have to dig _really_ hard and _really_ deep to figure out what its setting _is_ . It doesn't spoon-feed exposition to players. The downside is that it is terribly slow-paced. Glaciers move faster than that game's plot.) Invisible Inc (The story is stereotypical cyberpunk, but the gameplay in Invisible Inc is unlike any other tactical game that I've seen before or since. It's turn-based tactical stealth, and it _rocks_ that genre. It doesn't have a lot of replayability once you've figured it out completely, but on the first few playthroughs it feels very hardcore and constantly drops something new on you.)
The freshest game of recent years that I can recommend for hardened veteran gamers is the Outer Wilds (note: not Outer Worlds!) This is something of an adventure game, best played as blind as possible.
Even indie games lost their luster. Yep pixel games and primitive jRPGs from the 90s were cool, we get it. I think the problem today is actually too many people trying to relive their childhood and throwing a fit when a game doesn’t do it for them
Tim’s giggles let me know its about to be a good video 😂
I think an interesting counterpoint to this is the concept of the "simple meal made well." Ideas, whether they be in media, food, art, or other forms, are come up with, attract attention, and then people put their own spin on them. And they become so ubiquitous and varied in quality that folks get bored with them, but then one comes along every so often that gets the fundamentals down really well and gets a lot of positive attention because the basics are so good and reminds people of the original games that gave them that original hedonistic adaptation.
Came to say this. The endless drive for uniqueness and novelty seems like it would come at the cost of iteration on a solid foundation. I know what I like and I tend to pursue it aggressively. I'm not looking to have my mind blown when I visit the ice-cream section of the supermarket - I'm looking for my favourite treat. If someone comes out with a new variation on that favourite - yay! If not, the usual is right there and I'll enjoy it as always.
Although I also love the "simple done well" mentality, I think it is not a good counter point to hedonic adaptation. I might be wrong but I assume this refers to things like, for example, having a plain bowl of oatmeal with no sugar and learning to enjoy it anyways even though it's bland and boring. Is this what you are talking about? If not, then my mistake.
The "simple done well" idea just means you're showing appreciation and gratitude for the level of enjoyment and pleasure you are capable of receiving AFTER hedonic adaptation has occurred. Note that after hedonic adaptation has occurred, there is still a baseline level of enjoyment and pleasure that you are capable of having. Showing gratitude and appreciation for that will not increase the pleassure received, but instead will make you a happier, calmer, more content person overall. So appreciating the simple things is a very good thing!!! It just doesn't change anything about hedonic adaptation, which is ok since the baseline level of pleasure after adaption occurs is perfectly fine.
With that said, if you "hedonically adapt" to video games, they should still be pleasurable to some degree even after fully 100% adapting. So this doesn't seem like the reason why someone would stop enjoying video games.
This video gave me an idea for a story for a game... A sci-fi future where you can save your memories onto a drive of some kind and then wipe them from your mind to enable you to experience things for the first time again. The intent of course being that you'd put them back later. Then there could be a scenario where someone's memories are stolen, or even you get someone else's memories put into your head and you have to solve a mystery related to it.
You always trying to introduce new features is probably the main reason your games are so memorable. I've looked at the article called "List of video games considered the best" on Wiki, and in the 90s there were like 8-10 great games released per year, while in 2010s it is only 2-3 per year. And, IMO, this because back then the developers were more frequently introducing new gameplay (either via design ideas or new technologies), while now it is just sequels with more or less the same gameplay.
Thank you for Publishing New Novel videos daily to meet my Hedonic Needs Tim!! ❤
They have become my baseline for my morning coffee and happiness.
Indie games is where all the innovation is happening since like 2007.
7:23 is where the Baldur's Gate 3 review starts.
This is exactly why I think good modding capabilities and a dedicated community are essential for a game to survive. In XCOM 2, my most played game, I have spent more than half my time playing with dozens to hundreds of mods.
I looked at my Alternative Mod Manager and I have 250 mods, either for visuals (taken from other gamer running on Unreal Engine) or voice-packs. Out of 300+ hours in game (per Steam information) I spent roughly 40+ in Character creation.
Nice haircut, Tim!
disgustingly baller haircut
we are not ready
This is why I love the indie scene, where small studios create games just for the sake of exploring new ideas.
Comedy writers who I like have spoken about no longer being able to laugh at things, even though they do know they're funny. Or, horror writers who are able to write excellent horror but no longer find horror fiction all that scary. We reckon with things, solve creative puzzles, and then, they lose that point of interest for us. Like, I used to draw very disturbing and surreal images because I was working through some issues, but I'm much happier now, so I can no longer draw them anymore.
Perhaps the focus should shift from "new" to "craft." Once one knows what works, then focus on the craft. You may make the same thing, but the level of quality is what separates them. Twilight and I Am Legend are both vampire stories, but only one of these truly shines in how well crafted it is.
i feel like with bigger timelines of development and subsequently bigger budgets all these companies are less and less willing to risk it (which is understandable from a financial standpoint) so they opt for the tried and tested game mechanics and so many games feel so similar. Compared to the sheer scale of unique and innovative games we were getting in early 2000s nowadays its not the same (although games are bigger and prettier now which is good, but they often repeat the same formula to avoid risks and try to appeal to everyone).
Totally agree and would add that indie developers are where the majority of gameplay innovation is coming from these days.
I never liked games becoming prettier. My eyesight is bad enough not to appreciate half of the things those 3D artists are doing.
Your career so far has been incredible. Thanks so much for sharing your experiences.
I think this is part of why I find myself gravitating to indie titles more. I find that lots of smaller teams (usually teams of 5-20) tend to make games that are both unique enough to keep me engaged and large enough for me to really sink my teeth into.
I guess you can call it a new twist on the formula rather than brand new ideas, but the way you are playing with and against your character's brain in Disco Elysium felt very novel to me and actually got me super excited in a way other RPGs haven't in a long time. Combine that with the exquisite dialogue, setting, and music and it's definitely my favorite game in years!
Disco Elysium is an indie game though. That's where innovation is going, as someone mentioned here in the comments.
@@Pavel-wj7gy It's much easier to be experimental with indie games, but I think the idea that only indies are innovative falls on its face in the aftermath of Baldur's Gate 3. This game had a massive budget and a ton of time spent on it, and although it's a familiar type of game, it did innovate in various areas and is insanely popular.
@@kevinjohnson495 To me, Baldur's Gate 3 is not innovative. It's just a CRPG made with an unprecedented amount of resources and budget. Simply having a massive amount of resources and budget at your disposal is not innovative or creative, it's just being lucky enough to have those things. The game is good don't get me wrong but it is not anything fresh or new that blows my mind.
@@DraftMatters Well, it's not reinventing the genre necessarily, but a creative work can be a masterclass of an established formula rather than completely new.
However, the extra actions in BG3 like jump (verticality), throw object, and other PNP-type immersive environmental interactions are truly innovative -- on top of their existing DOS innovations in surfaces, which plenty of CRPGs don't even have (e.g. being able to burn oil/acid surfaces, freeze water surfaces, etc.) . They really came closer than any other CRPG I've played to recreating that PNP level of freedom of action.
I also don't think there has ever been a D&D 5e game done on this scale, so that alone is unprecedented. They actually reworked the 5e systems to something that they believed to be more fun, and given that 5e is not a very popular system yet BG3 is insanely popular, they seem to have succeeded big time.
Removing the "Is this fun" question from game design actually explains a lot about modern games.
00:14 as someone whose family breeds retrievers, I connect to the "oh god the fluff is everywhere" on a spiritual level.
And a golden no less!
I have a very loving and friendly female cat, and my eyes get full of hairs everyday, to the point I have generated some kind of defense/resistance to hairs/eyelashes/dirt/sand and mostly won't notice it until I see a mirror and my eyes are like a dirty cat sandbox.
Thank you for this video, really interesting stuff, very educational. I’ve got depression and sometimes I get what’s called anhedonia which is the clinical term for being unable to find things enjoyable. It’s been a good long time since I really enjoyed playing a computer game, the initial enjoyment fades fast.
I do have one idea for a game I’d like to make, a game that’s sort of like if you took the old Kubrick movie Barry Lyndon and turned that into a game. But I don’t think anyone would want to risk any money on it, and I’m not sure if it’s anything someone other than me will enjoy. It would be a game where the goal is to lie and trick people and use social interaction instead of physical violence to destroy your enemies.
How can Tim be so cute in every video? I love his facial expressions, voice and the sophisticated way he talks about things.
He is definitely a person I'd love to have lunch and talk about things with
Hedonic Adaptation is a cool way to describe a set of decisions for a video and could absolutely describe your own mind as a useful idea. You are also describing getting older and having to confront a rapidly corporatizing work space with an even higher drive for profit. (I'm old, this isn't ageism). Its cool that you want to branch out.
I don't make games so I obviously don't have your level of expertise and experience. As a simple player I tend to try throw myself into different genres as often as possible. I play a lot of games and I've found that constantly engaging with things that work differently helps to stop me feeling jaded. That is partly because my moods aren't that stable so having more than one game on the go at once (not literally at the same time) can really fit well.
Separately I wish I had one, my mood flies around on an hour to hour basis.
I have to say that to a degree I share your view on modern games, at least in the AAA space. They all look very shiny, but so many at the core are just different skins of the Unreal Engine. That's why almost all new games I've played in years are indie games from people who in lieu of a big team and publisher backing have to rely on being clever to get noticed. Lucas Pope is a prime example; Papers Please and Return Of The Obra Dinn are prime examples of excellent new ideas executed incredibly well. Other than him, Baba Is You is another relatively recent quite unique title.
Then with a slightly bigger team and budget we have Outer Wilds, which to be frank put the rest of the gaming industry to shame. Wholly unique, intriguing, innovative and breathtaking. And then they did it again in the DLC Echoes Of The Eye, just to make sure everyone knew it wasn't a fluke. If you haven't played, Tim, please do!
There are only so many original and novel things to make. People have been saying there's nothing original under the sun for years, yet sometimes new things pop up from the aether. Making completely fresh things is very hard and rare. Lightning in a bottle. I've never heard of hedonic adaptation before, it is realpy interesting. Could be the reason some people my age feel like they've grown out or are sick of video games. Thanks Tim for the new information.
Have you ever played Rimworld or Dwarf Fortress? And if you have, what’s your opinion on those games, particularly their use of extreme amounts of generated content?
Great video as always, Tim!
You pointed out that some features you put in your games are features or mechanics you hadn't seen before in computer games specifically, which makes me wonder: would you ever want to work on tabletop RPGs? Going back, in a way, to where it all started for you?
I came up with the idea for a game but when I put together the GDD, I became overwhelmed by how ambitious it was. So I decided to do a scaled back version earlier in the story, so the less ambitious game I'm making is a prequel to my dream game. That way, I'm pretty sure I'll be making two games in the same IP.
Q: are there any ambient songs that can move you to tears? Not only do I enjoy it for work, but Brian Eno's "The Big Ship" always taps into something primal and can move me to tears each time I hear it. Would be cool to hear you gab about your love of ambient music. Here's another song that just came on from my library with a similar feel, it's by the Nine Inch Nails "Hope We Can Again"
Hi Tim. Could you make a video discussing the new features you’ve put in each game you’ve worked on?
Kenshi (an indie game by Lo-Fi Studios) I believe is a game that breaks out of Hedonic Adaptation. It's one of the most original RPG sandboxes I've seen in a long time, both mechanically, and its setting. I would pay money to watch Tim do a playthrough of it, and talk about the mechanics in real time. It was also inspired by the origianl Fallout both gameplay wise, and tonally.
My only solution when I feel this way is to play more indie games, look for works that are personal, and imperfect in new and fun ways.
Would you consider either 1) an arrangement like what Stephen King does with his dollar babies, where you can adapt a story of his for $1, or 2) some kind of educational challenge, where you post one of your game ideas and a bunch of people jam it out? Could be a really cool use for your ideas. Some kind of game incubator. I think you would be a great mentor for up and coming devs to bounce their ideas off of.
Jonathan Blow has said things of similar sentiment (though not so nicely) on many occasions; he's bored by all the samey games and always strives to make something unique. I think this massively impacts his productivity, as so far in quite a few years he's only released two games, Braid and The Witness, but in my opinion those are also two quite novel games in certain areas.
The Witness is a game I adore. It doesn't have a story, just lots of different people's serious ideas about the meaning of life, science and religion, from many different parts of the world throughout history. These ideas are also sometimes in strong opposition to each other. At no point does the game provide an answer, it's just meditation. Sadly I think a lot of people didn't have the patience to genuinely digest it.
Also the puzzles were just great.
Tim, I can recommend three games by the same developer: Voidspire Tactics, Alvora tactics and Horizon Gate. The developer is currently working on a new title Kingsvein and it’s on my wishlist next to Baldur’s Gate 3
However unlikely the scenario that I both finish making a game, and having Tim end up playing it,
I sincerely hope my odd style of art and storytelling is engaging or at least serviceable as being unique.
Not specifically for Tim, but his words have a lot of weight to me having been a fan of nearly every game I've played of his involvement.
This is the reason why I like Bethesda with what they did on Fallout 4 and incorporated building/settlement management into an RPG, it really expanded on the whole RPG element (Not in the traditional sense) But this adds something new on top of what we already have. I love the roleplaying aspect of being able to become a farmer that can cultivate your own farm then setup supply lines to other settlements. a lot of people criticize it for lacking lots of certain details, but they can always expand on it even more in future installments. People need to realize if something is missing in a game its not Bethesda's fault... lets be realistic, if they was constantly adding new ideas they would never release a new game they would be constantly forever working on peoples expectations. People should never set expectations for a new installment of a game but instead go in with an open mind and they should not follow other peoples reviews, because then there not being true to there own experiences, there just living through other peoples experiences which isn't good at all for forming your own opinion of a game. I say be happy for what it is personally.
I don't understand why people hate on newer games, if they don't like it why don't they just play the old ones its not like they have overwritten them by any means. it always boggles my mind when a lot of critics say I wish this new game was more like the first game or it returned to its roots, if that's the case why don't they just play the first one? instead of trashing the new ones. i feel like some of the gaming community is grossly incompetent as well with what they want, one minute some people say they want new features and new innovations but next they want it to be the same? its contradicting sometimes and confusing.
Honestly, I think the Minecraft clone/"settlement system" of FO4 would have made more sense as a "Sims" game unto itself. It doesn't really belong in a Fallout game from many people's perspective because they want to play Fallout as "the Lone Wanderer", exploring the world and seeing what kind of trouble they can get into, not babysitting everyone in the Wasteland. That's much of the reason why Sim Settlements is such a popular mod. So many people just don't want to deal with that system. A lot of players had nothing to do with it, especially on their first playthroughs, just tossing up a couple of turrets and beds for the folks in Sanctuary and being on their way. They might have delved a little deeper into it when they got bored or realized the game was all but entirely empty of interesting content and used the building system as a kind of game unto itself just as the more prominent builders do in Fallout 76. It's what they spend all their time doing in the most recent {gulp} "Fallout" games because it provides them a bit of an outlet for their own creativity. Ergo, the better sense to make it a game unto itself.
On a side note, Bethesda isn't implementing "new ideas." They're doing exactly what Todd Howard said they're doing: "We look to see what works in other games and try and build on that." That's why every "new" Bethesda game is juggling several subgames at once. They look to see what "works," i.e. has been financially successful, elsewhere and implement a version of it in their games to try and appeal to as many *wallets* (as opposed to human beings) as possible.
I'll be honest with you: saying others are merely "hating on the game" when they're voicing criticism of any kind of any game is not cool, regardless how many times we've heard people say, "Stop hating on the game!"
@@lrinfi("I'll be honest with you: saying others are merely "hating on the game" when they're voicing criticism of any kind of any game is not cool, regardless how many times we've heard people say, "Stop hating on the game!"
@@sharpedog666 There is no constructive criticism to be offered to the gaming community, which is just as responsible for the sad state of affairs as the industry itself. One could call for a boycott of this or that publisher or what have you to try to put a stop to the worst of the worst industry trends, but that's about it and few, if any, would respond because too many people think everything is hunky-dory or insist that "it's just you," perhaps especially players who have yet to experience realities such as "money doesn't grow on trees" and who may actually have enablers putting up the funds as opposed to, say, parenting well.
Gaming addiction is pretty obviously a very serious problem and the industry is all-in on the idea of making games as addictive as possible and attempting to disguise the mechanisms it's using, especially given that the "loot box" fiasco pretty obviously blew up in its face.
I could occasionally phrase public concerns better, but it makes me angry that the industry -- as every other -- is so greedy, it simply doesn't care about the lives its ruining to make a buck and, of course, refuses to regulate itself as long as it can get away with it. That's why I think it's going to take government regulation of the industry to put a stop to it and if the industry doesn't want that, it might want to think about putting a stop to it itself.
It kind of feels like you have to rummage through the indie scene to find truly new and innovative game features.
i didnt know about this term, but i had an inkling of it! thanks for the amazing vids tim
Probably not the first one to say this but have you tried any of Fromsoft's Souls games? They've managed to change enough of the things you mention that it feels like some sort of new, at least the first time you play one. The character stories you find, especially in Elden Ring for me, were often touching or tragic, in part because they're not overwritten. It feels like player character focused, more that you're just experiencing these worlds amid their dissolution, whatever the PC's potential is to change what happens. The intensely actiony nature can be a barrier (it would be hard to fully translate it into something turn-based, but some elements could derive from it and still work I think), and they don't do much in the way of laying out what systems do what in a way that can be frustrating, especially in some of the earlier games, but I love them dearly. There's also a good deal of environmental and situational storytelling and humor that you don't often see elsewhere.
But I get where you're coming from, it takes a lot more for me to want to invest part of myself into a game after many decades of playing them. A lot of the bigger name games seem like they're trying to please too many people and so I find myself withdrawing despite liking how pretty they look or whatever. When I learned that Starfield may not have a very detailed trading system my enthusiasm dropped a bit, which is good because my current machine probably can't run it anyway :)
I feel like your dread of the bigger market questions seem to mean a smaller group might feel better (with those sort of questions reserved for later, maybe), but with that comes the need for funding, time, the right group alchemy, and other stuff you've talked about. Even crowdfunding isn't the panacea it seems to be. Whatever the case, your videos have been inspiring, and I'm glad you're making them!
Between this vid, and the vid on making your channel; this is prolly the most educational channel I follow. I'm glad to know this term 👍
Well, and the tons of other info you have uploaded here lol
Hi Tim, this is my first time commenting on one of your videos but you talking about hedonic adaptation (and mainly the mention of it when grieving someone who has passed) made me think of this question for you.... What do you want your legacy to be when you pass on? Of course everyone's first thought is "Fallout" but that's just too simple and too easy. What do you want to be remembered for other than fallout itself? How has that changed since you were younger? Thanks Tim!!!
I think a large part of this is growing up and experiencing a lot of what a medium has to offer, and reacting to that by trying to be more involved with any individual piece of art as a structure of systems instead of as a whole. I think people believe, somewhat falsely, that understanding a medium such as games, books, plays, or movies, and being able to deconstruct them will allow them to recreate feelings and experiences from previous media consumption, or find new media that can offer them those same experiences. Viewing a piece of media as a structure of language, scenes, systems, acts, and other component pieces requires that the viewer analyze themselves as another component piece in the structure of the larger work. Instead of interacting with a work intuitively by engaging with the piece on an emotional level, these structural viewers hold that investment hostage, only rationing it out when they perceive the work to have earned it.
Instead of playing the role of an audience member, they play a designer, who instead of receiving an honest viewing of a work, attempts to inject themselves in the art in order to mold the experience to match their expectations.
Nowadays, games have so many systems or have systems that are so refined that people have to learn how to interact with them. Gamers will often feel like they cannot enjoy a game until they reach a level of proficiency in their interaction with these systems. The simple and highly stylized character platformer and adventure games of the 90s and early 2000s are gone, and have been replaced with structures of systems that do not entertain as much as attempt to construct an experience around the viewer.
Trope fatigue. As I expected.
Fortunately, there is a cure...
We learned all the tropes for a reason.
I learned them to not be a living meme.
I wanted to be more than just a "fictional character" in real life...
I've been a gamer all my life and I also feel like I've seen everything games have to offer. It's very rare to see a game do anything that's actually new, they mostly just do the same thing as the games that came before, they just do it different.
I'd be happy with more new indie games that simply met the standard of the 90s and 2000s classics! Retro graphics and text dialog are fine with me!
Well, when you put it like that... *development effort intensifies!*
A question that relates to this to some degree: Where do you think most value is created in a game, as in, between design/mechanics, art/visual, writing/storytelling, visceral aesthetic, so on. And how has that changed over the course of several decades.
When I say "value" I don't necessarily mean monetary, but even just general "good" for everything, anything that may move an individual the most, or even the medium as a whole
Yea unique things are really hard to come by. I'm always on the lookout for games that do different.
Gameplay-wise, there's still stuff that surprises me. I've still not seen any game do RTS units like Impossible Creatures did. I've never seen a game do investigative mystery like Obra Dinn. There are a number of interesting mechanics, stat systems, and quest formats out there that I've mentioned in past comments. I feel like there's still a lot of innovation on that front.
Narratively, however, we're in a valley, or perhaps a pit. Innovation in writing is rare, and usually focused on tropes and trends. When writing a story, people use building blocks they're already familiar with- it's hard to do different.
It's why if you look at new landmark eras in media history, that's where you see new ideas- the 2000s for video games were one such period. But, inevitably, things settle down. Investors want more sure projects, creators have a harder time thinking of things outside their previous experiences.
There are some that have unique settings, lore, or narrative devices; games like Kenshi and Dark Souls putting the story in the background through passive dialogue and environmental storytelling instead of forcing the player into it, or universes like w40k and NieR having so much depth their lore that most players will never see the bottom, giving a much larger sense to the world.
These things give me hope for the future, and I'll do my best to bring that future a bit closer.
Uncle has spoken - Hear, hear!
Recently read a great article (from 2012) about how "Mystery is a lost art in videogames".
Publishers and devs push more and more towards known systems and heavy handholding so that the players can experience as much content as possible and have an easy onboarding experience. I think this contributes to that feeling of "I've seen this before" as there's not even room now for players exploring the systems and world of a game on their own. Its like the game is afraid of being missunderstood or having a voice of its own.
Ofc this is all tangential to Hedonic Adaptation, specially in regards to stuff like reused NPCs, but I think it contributes a bit towards players growing tired at a faster rate and creativity in general in the AAA industry being at a low point.
Could you provide a reference to the "Mystery is a lost art in videogames" article?
@@bilharziaaeetes UA-cam keeps removing my msg... Just lookup "Tevis Thompson - We are explorers" :)
Hi Tim. That’s interesting. The strongest reactions I had to in recent years were Dark Souls and Outer Wilds - precisely because they provided me with a very new experience. I don’t think I am kind of personality who gets bored - I could play the same genre and see the same designs over and over again. But it irks me when I see stuff that I have sen done better I otherwise a decent title. Baldur’s Gate3 is my most recent example (and Elden ring before that) - good games, exceptional in some aspects, but there are bits of those games that I have seen done better before.
I think that’s why I favour smaller, focused titles. Give me one thing that’s the best I have ever seen, rather than wide choice of fine/serviceable mechanics - I played enough games to simply not be impressed by those.
I would like to see you play some of your games. You probably have already said no. But it would be nice. I feel like you playing it is going to trigger some fun memories that you could share.
Hey Tim, really like your games and i appreciate your stories, insights and suggestions. Hope all goes well for you.
One thing i wonder, in case you still rummage through the comments, is your perspective on Chris Avellone as a person and as a writer/designer. How were your interactions with him on a personal and professional level? What was your reaction to the allegations about him which were retracted earlier this year? Would you consider having a chat with him on this channel like you did with some of your past co-workers?
Considering your past and present ties with Obsidian and Chris Avellone's less than cordial seperation from the company I'm not really expecting much but I'll take my chances. Thanks in advance.
Tim, have you considered making mods for existing games, e.g, Fallout, Elder Scrolls? I know - why make mods when you make GAMES! But it would be a wonderful way to add new unique things you want to see in games, without the fuss and investment (time & money) of full on game dev.
I can see Tim puttering around with mods, maybe when he's a little further past the "semi-retirement" stage or even before. It's like the old saying, "You can take the boy out of the mountains, but you can't take the mountains out of the boy." Well, you can take Tim away from furnaces of creativity, but you can't take the creativity out of Tim. :)
It's funny you mention games with new features, concepts etc. most of what I see (mainly on Steam) is the same ideas repeated over and over and something that is literally the same as a previous iteration has as much, if not more success than the thing it took from. It's amazing. Not necessarily complaining because just because something has old ideas doesn't mean it can't be enjoyable, but some of these games are surpassing an identical game more than the original. A lot of that has to do with UA-cam influence of the big gaming channels. I'm rambling.
Do you think this sometimes has to do with the new game just doing it better in terms of UI, story, character progression, etc? I'm thinking of CRPG games, but I think this also applies to turn based wargames on hexagonal maps. There is a basic formula, but sometimes one game's execution is better than other, older games because they slightly tweaked the genre's formula in a way that improved game play.
@@ProfBoggsI think Steam is just so over saturated with genres that they bleed into one another at a glance. That's why it's so hard for me to find interesting games to try. It doesn't help that a lot of highly reviewed games on Steam are memes. Can you suggest a good place to find quality games? I'm at a loss. I want to find obscure and interesting indie games.
Well, I don't want something new :D Same engine, same gameplay, same rules just new story and I am happy.
Whenever games begin to feel rote to me, I try to seek out games that boil down some particular interaction I enjoy. For example, visual novels for the pure narrative kick or early access games with placeholder everything but intricate mechanics and gameplay.
5:40 what happens when a industry/scene becomes managerialized, becomes subservient to charts and diagrams
They become Isabel Cruz. ;) I've honestly wondered if Bethesda's devs weren't blowing off a little steam with that DLC. Guess I'll never know.
Tim, I don't know how to break this to you, but 2023 has already been one of the best years for CRPGs in history. If Starfield and the Cyberpunk rework/DLC are as good as they're rumoured to be, then I think it might even be the best year for CRPGs ever.
If you don't enjoy Baldur's Gate 3, Jagged Alliance 3, or Diablo 4, then not only does the genre not have a niche for you, I think you may just be burnt out on computer roleplaying games altogether :)
37-year-old here, by the way. I remember other great years for games in the past. This has been a truly historic year.
Surprisingly, I'm more excited for games with time, especially this year. I think Age of Wonders 4 and its race creation and race transformation mechanics is very novel (talk about that technological enablement) and the game shapes up to be the best 4x ever. BG3 despite some challenges is the best rpg experience probably ever, carried by great bold writing and content ocean (it loosely reminds me of Arcanum in this regard). Finally there are games that challenge the greatest even in well established genres.
When it comes to deep mechanical innovations, the indie scene has some good offerings. I'm still amazed by a little known title Unexplored 2, but there are many really cool titles available.
I understand!
It was at least an interesting journey playing a game like Fallout 1.
I had a lot of fun, and it influenced me a lot.
It was kind of unreal to see it grow into an AAA title.
It was an honor to play your game, and I'm glad to know that you developed it with a great team.
I wish you a fulfilling and peaceful life, Tim.
I have to move on, goodbye.
Interesting topic and thank you for sharing.
My two cents on the matter:
I'm not sure what you're referring to about not being too excited about current games is quite the same as hedonic adaptation.
What you seem to be saying - and I apologize if I'm getting that wrong - is that you're not really excited by games to the same extent as you used to be, because they're not doing much in terms of being genuinely innovative or fresh. Games are becoming overly familiar - as genres and design paradigms are established and increasingly commercialized.
As you mentioned, hedonic adaptation is about slowly returning to a "baseline" after whatever event that pulls you above or below has lost its initial impact. That's not really the same thing, from my perspective.
I'm 46 years old - and I've been quite the gamer ever since I was about 6 years old. I, too, was always more excited about "the next big thing" than simply replaying similar games over and over - though there are genres that will satisfy me with less innovation - because I love them so much (immersive sims might be my number one genre - which is just typical, as there are so few of them, and they tend to not do well commercially).
On the other hand, I have several friends that seem very different in that way, at least to me.
They seem quite satisfied with either replaying the same games over and over (some have thousands of hours in a handful of games and that's basically all they play) - or they just stay within a very narrow spectrum in terms of genre or feature-set. Seems to me they like certain feature-sets more than the actual games themselves - though that might not be accurate or fair. It's just my perspective, limited by my own preferences and ways of looking at whatever it is that games are or have to offer.
However, for me, having probably "peaked" in terms of passion and pure enjoyment of games around the age of 18-20 (mid-late 90s - where so many of my favorite design tenets seem to have originated, including some you were definitely involved with) - I'm still chasing the next big title with some great difficulty.
So I'm lucky if I get a single game each or every other year that even approaches giving me the kind of enjoyment I was fortunate enough to experience - seemingly more frequently - all those years ago.
I consider it to be less about hedonic adaptation, and more about oversaturation - and likely a natural part of growing older and having seen and cared so much in such a focused way. Games were always "the thing" for me - even if I've enjoyed other things as well, naturally.
I've consumed and consumed - and it's really no surprise that it takes more and more to satisfy.
I don't know if that's true for you - or others - but I just wanted to add to the discussion.
Thank you again for your interesting videos.
Oh, and Starfield is probably "the one" game for me this year. Well, it's the game that has the biggest chance of bringing me back to the kind of experience that got me so hooked in the first place. That, or possibly Phantom Liberty :)
Interesting video Tim. Have you considered making smaller one-person games Tim? Seems like it would be easier to explore new features ideas with something short like the old Flash games that used to be everywhere.
also sounda similar to why the taste of connoisseurs can diverge so far from the general publics
You may like Eastshade. It's like a break from the typical games of the last thirty years
Well hopefully if my dreams & efforts manifest themselves into a game someday you & many others will have that game & have a lovely time with it❤
Hi Tim :) I have found the same thing with music lately, and it's hard to get inspired as a result.
I had two questions if they're interesting enough:
The first is if you feel there's a way (as developers and players) to reset those expectations we all grow into - I've found this is doable with music by hopping genres, but can't get the same effect with games.
The second was about how to challenge players with unconventional ideas, but keep them on board for the ride? Arcanum and Fallout really threw some conventions and genre tropes out the window, but I never felt it was antagonistic to me as a player. I'd love to hear if you have an ethos on how far you can push things, or if it's trial and error, learning from mistakes etc. :)
Thank you as always, I always learn or come away with something. :)
9:40 In regards to some of the critics or other folks pointing out similarities to previous games, that sounds similar to literary criticism as well but perhaps the medium of video games is so different compared to prose/novels which are usually a solo affair compared to Games' team and large organization collaborations to produce games it makes it a bit more disappointing? I tend to play games a little differently, though. Games I gravitate towards in the last 15 years will have me playing them for years trying to find extra nooks and crannies or just enjoy the story so much I will outright replay over and over.
Just for sake of trying to highlight some positive examples from the last five or so years, I wonder how many of us would say that there was something genuinely new or fresh in titles like Return of the Obara Dinn or Disco Elysium.
It helps when I switch it up by playing Japanese games like Atelier Ryza, Elden Ring, Nioh, Persona, etc.
I thought this video was going to be about finding new ways to be hedonistic. 🤷♂️
In a sense, it actually is. The use of the word within terms like "hedonic treadmill" is actually closer to the word's original meaning than people's general use of the word is. The ancient Greek philosophers *were* more focused on mental gratification than on "debauchery": en DOT wiktionary DOT org/wiki/hedonism#Noun
Have you branched out into indie games at all? I've found that the games on sites like Itch can afford to take really wild risks because their teams are so small. RPGs are less popular there than puzzle or shoot-em-up games, but there are still plenty!
Hey tim, could you possibly do a video on map design
This video explains the lessons I learned about making game maps.
ua-cam.com/video/MiAEBpXlelk/v-deo.html
@@CainOnGames thankyou
Disco Elysium is the game every rpg developer should play, I strongly recommend as I love most of your work and I've watched every video on this channel -- you'll like it (apart from the trop in the very beginning)
It's a very good use of that trope at least. It's connected to the character's identity and there's tons of interactions where you have to reckon with what your character did before the game started. But instead of being weirdly detached from that relationship (a la Ulysses in New Vegas) it emphasizes your actions and puts more of an onus on you to tell the story you want from that earlier experience
I do have to agree a lot of games these days are just "X but with Y". See roguelikes, card mechanics, etc. But I do still see wonderful games with innovative mechanics like that one with the photos-turn-into-real-objects mechanic. Would be neat if you could ever go over that idea book you have, new perspectives are always great.
Yeah, but it's a lot easier to do something never-done-before when your medium only has a 10-year history than it is when your medium has a 50-year history.
I realize that the older I get, the more and more bored I am of chosen one narratives, or even "save the world" plots.
If it took you this many years to feel as you do about games, I would consider yourself better than most. I feel like a lot of people are jaded in terms of playing, myself included (Im only 26).
Verticality (Solasta early game is a good example)
''appeal to the widest demographic''
What a sad sentence to hear, read or have to deal with.
I think you need to hit the indie sphere, theres some great games out there like OFF, Lisa, Omori, Undertale being my prime favorite.
5:26 This hits my soul hard. My mom can almost only talk in that kind of language. I hate it.
i know you've said you werent gonna review games but i have been curious to hear if you played daggerfall, the scope of that game continues to blow my mind, too bad its one of those things where they really could only be that experimental in the 90s and they didnt have the tech to back up their ambitions
side note for anyone reading this, check out daggerfall unity :)
Tim, I have that exact same colorful spinny globe thing
I know you don't review games or talk about other peoples games really, but I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on Death Stranding and its mechanics.
Wow i didnt know there was an actual term for this human adaptness to stuff. As someone who tries to enjoy and appreciate the most out of any kind of entertainment , this has been easily the biggest enemy of mine. I detest how easily and often i get used to graphics or big fantastic video game worlds , amazing art styles and even the simplest jokes in comedies.
Im curious about like massive games in call of duty when theres an outcry in change but then when they change stuff its “too much” change and they want the older systems back. Why does that happen?
I never dislike a game because it's not original or doesn't have anything new in it, but I do notice it and it can be a talking point. I don't think it's fair to criticise a game for not being original or not having new features - unless it's bad in terms of actual gameplay, or the graphics are terrible, or it's somehow cynical - because there are only a limited number of ideas and techniques that can be used in a game. For example: I really liked the Legend of Grimrock games, which were not very original, but advances in technology allowed them to be more atmospheric than previous tile-based Dungeon Master clones. They also had very well thought-out control systems which made them very quick to play, and the sequel expanded on those features a great deal. I find that I can play any kind of game - old or new - as long as it's responsive and absorbing. If a game does have something new, then of course that gives it extra brownie points, but expecting something new every time, and complaining about it when that isn't the case isn't fair. What I do like about sequels, though, is that it gives the devs a chance to refine a game even more.
In my case I am very selective about the games in wich I'm gonna invest my time, for example in the last 10 years I can probably name a list of 10 games that have come in that period wich I like to play and there is nothing else outside of it. That been said, my problems start when at the story / world level, developers reuse and repeat the same argument over and over again.
I'll give ya two examples of games I have problems (yet still play) and games that I will never have a problem:
The problematic ones
1) Fallout 2: Is the same story all over again, your place is goin' "bye-bye", find the shenannigan, kill the evil overlord with an evil (and way more stupidier) plan. Despite the vastness of the game itself, the fact that the main structure at world level is tied to this premise, means that you are FORCED to travell thru it if you wanna complete the game.
2) Elder Scrolls 4 - Oblivion: Leaving aside the constant bugs, crashes, defective aliased LODs and the requirement of at minimum 20 mods to make it work, feel and give somewhat the same experience that the previous games did, here we are with the same problem, the main arc. While at the side quest level is all good.... for the most part, the main story (specialy that overly forced beginning) is rushed so hard that there is no chance to actualy take your time to contemplate it. In Morrowind you had your time to stop and think, even the characters told ya to take it slow, but here is all about finishing it so fast that by the time you think there is something o value into it, it already finishes in one broken scripted sequence that I can only reffer as a "blue balls moment" considering all the build up.
A bonus to this can be Neverwinter Nights 2: Seriously, 10 minutes into the game and I already know the name of the main villain?... give me a break. If it wasn't for Neeshka I wouldn't have finished (let alone replay) that train wreck.
The non-problematic ones
1) Darklands: Yes is old, yes is cumbersome, cryptic, obscure and constantly shows how much it hates you, still it has a story that isn't forced down your throat, based on folklor that was belived to be the real world, in an historical fidelity that takes you in if you give it a chance. I love how punishing yet rewarding it can be and while is hard, there is no cheap moves on it, if you get yourself in a bad spot, is your fault.
2) Septerra Core - Legacy of the Creator: A lost gem of a game, it is one of those strange experiments to mix JRPGs with CRPGs of the late 90's and it works really well. Of course the protagonist if neutral good, of course the villain is chaotic stupid, but the world building, man... Septerra is a place that can give Arcanum a run for its money at that level, specialy becasue is so alien that when your reach the ending you realize that you are seeing the final cinematic of something that you didn't knew was there all the time, still it makes all the sense in the world once you roll back your thoughts off the travel you just did.
Long story short, I like challenging ideas, even if the game is broken I will find a way to experience them, but the overall point is that I am SOOO TIRED of the "save the world" motivation, specialy when is forced so hard that everything else feels 200% more fluent and belivable (lookin at you Pillars of Eternity 2).
I thought that white statue on your shelf was some fluff you talked about.
Hedonic adaptation sounds very much like the concept of homeostasis in healthcare. Homeo = human, stasis = static, as in, the tendency and search for balance or stability by humans. Lets say, knock on wood, somebody gets an illness that really affects their life, in due time, through homeostasis, they will establish a new livable normality.
There are tons of indie devs making great and unique games. I gave up on AAA games, specially multi-player. Last one I played was Doom and the one before that Skyrim.
Tim! Discovered you recently.
Have you played any horror games? I'm trying to find new interesting games too... I recently played Signalis, and it was fun spooky!
I'm squeamish about horror, but it gave me a new and interesting take on a genre I hadn't touched on. You sound like you're burnt out on RPGs. If you haven't already, You should touch on genres and developers you'd initially reject.
I'm really glad that I got to play something outside of my comfort zone.
Hey Tim can you speak on the atmosphere of a game development studio during post-launch of a new game? What does the team work on or prioritize at that point? Thank you!
Even if you dont "review" or share your thoughts on it, I'd love to encourage you to play LISA: The Painful RPG
Talk about a reactive, completely innovative RPG...
Would love to hear your thoughts on Baldur's Gate 3 :)
Daggerfall Unity is a good way to experience TES: Daggerfall now. It is basically feature complete with the original version, along with bug-fixes.
TES: Arena is... well... kind of a proto-Daggerfall. The randomly generated overworld is interesting to roam around in for a bit and the main dungeons are kind of neat to mess around in with the Passwall spell to remove walls but other than that I found it kind of meh now. My favourite is still TES: Morrowind.
I think Strategy games suffer a lot from this. There was an interesting development with "Supreme Commander" and it's huge battles with production lines, splitting the screen up into multiple views, adjacency bonuses and so on but no other game really took it further.
ever try oneshot? it has some really unique ideas i havent seen done well in other games
The wow factors these days are happening in the more 'indie' areas of development, especially with how Steam works.
If you're looking for novel games: have you played these games?
Disco Elysium
(Don't let the amnesia trope scare you off. _Everything_ this game does is unusual for the RPG genre - _especially_ the amnesia.)
Pathologic 2
(Pathologic 1 is not bad, but I think Pathologic 2 is a better starting point: it keeps all of its predecessor's Eurojank weirdness while improving on the writing, voiceovers and gameplay)
Fallen London and its spinoffs
(A browser MMO, which has decent writing in its earliest content and got exceptionally well-written content in the last few years.
Its setting is as compelling as it is unusual - but you'll have to dig _really_ hard and _really_ deep to figure out what its setting _is_ . It doesn't spoon-feed exposition to players.
The downside is that it is terribly slow-paced. Glaciers move faster than that game's plot.)
Invisible Inc
(The story is stereotypical cyberpunk, but the gameplay in Invisible Inc is unlike any other tactical game that I've seen before or since.
It's turn-based tactical stealth, and it _rocks_ that genre.
It doesn't have a lot of replayability once you've figured it out completely, but on the first few playthroughs it feels very hardcore and constantly drops something new on you.)
The freshest game of recent years that I can recommend for hardened veteran gamers is the Outer Wilds (note: not Outer Worlds!) This is something of an adventure game, best played as blind as possible.
Even indie games lost their luster. Yep pixel games and primitive jRPGs from the 90s were cool, we get it. I think the problem today is actually too many people trying to relive their childhood and throwing a fit when a game doesn’t do it for them