Ive been writing this adventure where the story has layers that sit on top of each other. The game has a focus on exploration so it was important from the start that the story motivate adventure and for the adventure to be the key to the story. I do this by layering the story with the Past Narrative, the Parallel Narrative, and the Progressive Narrative. The Past Narrative is the bones of my story. It is not lore, but it reveals lore. It is a particular tale, like a movie or a campfire story with a beginning and a middle and a mystery that suggests a tragic end. You discover this story in pieces as you explore, like when you uncover audio logs in a horror game that tells you the fate of those who died. The adventure progresses with you in competition for the understanding of this Past Narrative by those whose agenda and plans run contemporary to your own, in the Parallel Narrative. This story has a timer, its own schedule, and so your own Progressive Narrative may arrive before/after/or during their own arrival when you discover pieces of the Past Narrative. The Progressive Narrative is what the players generate based off a need for particular resources or their own curiosity and sense of adventure, which the game elicits through almost every ability in the game being discovered through exploration.
0:38 I'm just imagining a journalist asking in that very tone and cadence "Do interviews make you long for death's sweet embrace?" and Time Cain crying out "Yes! Like nothing else!" xD I love the video!
A lot of what you said reminded me of interviews with Guild Wars 2 developers, where they tried to make chain events with some consequences for the players, and also started with personalized stories before going for the epic stuff.
I like it how you basically described the story progression of Lord of the Rings Online. First there's the hook story in the starting area aka "Something foul's afoot", then there are the zone-specific stories and the overarching world story of the Lord of the Rings
I've returned to it for the 2nd time and even with boosting a character to the highest one can, I still did the main book quests and quite a few 'zone' quests with no significant reward other than seeing the world unfold and all the work the creators spent time writing into the game.
The story is always the most important thing for me in single player, but I've never been able to make myself care about the story in an MMO. Often there is a huge disconnect between what you're being told and what you see, the story is telling you that the world is in peril and everyone is doomed, but I look around me and people are dancing, bunny hopping and doing all sorts of carefree things, I'm not going to care if those around me don't.
I'm much like you, I've tried few MMOs but I must recommend Guild Wars 2 for you, it's actually pretty damn good story wise and mechanically. Of course the disconnect is there for major setpieces but otherwise it's great!
@@JimUK Yea, and the thing is that the main quest is good but it gets even better after that once you hit the level cap and start getting into end game and play the expansion content
I was just a pirate marauder who arrived at the port of Limsa Lominsa in search of adventure. As my horizons broadened, I joined the gladiators' guild in the city state of Ul'dah, which eventually set me on the path to becoming a paladin. Little did I know where this path would take me... Their song of hope, she danced upon the wind-higher, oh, higher E'er their vows endured, and remained forever strong Standing tall in the dark did they carry on On wings of hope, I rise up through the night-higher, oh, higher Carrying their song cradled fast within my arms That its chorus might ring for all
Storytelling is why Final Fantasy XIV is both my favorite MMO and also my 2nd favorite Final Fantasy game overall. It feels like a game that is truly trying to be both an MMO and a genuine Final Fantasy single player adventure. That is not to say that it doesnt do the MMO side great, particularly when it comes to community and that sense of playing for any number of reasons whether its raiding, crafting, designing your player home, or just hanging out with other players in the main cities. Moreso what I mean is that for all the gameplay additions and tweaks they make to the game that is of course whats to be expected of an MMO, it never forgets that it is also here to tell you a fantastic plot that threads from one expansion to the next. Its the kind of game that I can resubscribe to when new patches or an expansion drops, do all of the new main story quest, and then move on to another game, knowing that the next arc of the story will be on its way in due time. While I don't do group content quite as much as I used to, I have no issue doing the required trials needed to advance the story, because to me, furthering that main plot is the reward, not whatever gear I'm going for. I get gear to further my power so I can continue to do main plot.
6:07, I don't know much about mmos, but this was my experience in a game called SWTOR. This hit me because I remember one of my first instanced zones being in a cave.
I was wondering if he was referring to SWTOR indeed! I agree it's very immersion breaking and feels underwhelming that by default people of the same class can't enter the same story instantiated area (and even if you enable it, you still have to complete the instance for every players in the group if you all want to advance). I'm pretty sure you can progress the story together on Makeb (Rise of the Hutt Cartel expansion) and that must be one of the reasons why I remember having lots of fun doing that section with friends.
Quite interesting topic that brought up few memories for me. I've spent my youth playing MMORPG called Tibia, it's surprisingly unknown in US, especially considering it's one of the oldest one still running and it was heavily based off Ultima VI (started as student project literally using sprites and mechanics straight from U6) but it used to be huge in Germany, Sweden, Poland and Brazil. It was actually quite organic with its quests. No story line was pushed on player (I remember Cipsoft, company behind it, was attempting something like that on tutorial island while they were revamping new player experience, trying to push some linear areas at very start to show basics and then actually make 'the main baddy' of their storyline show up in front of you to kinda scare you off and establish they are bad and you should deal with them but luckily they dropped that idea and revamped the starting area again). Everyone would start on newbie island called Rookgaard where you would gain experience until level 8 with option to do some quests then you would choose your vocation-class (knight, paladin (which was actually archer), sorcerer or druid) and one of the mainland cities to get teleported to. Then you were just thrown into that city and off you go, you were left to your own devices, you could travel to other mainland cities on your feet or if you had premium account (paid one) you could travel instantly via ship and you could pick up quests as you pleased. There wasn't any big overarching story, everything felt actually quite cozy, you were just one of many adventurers living in that world and quests reflected that-they could be anything from picking up item NPC claims they lost, through joining and rising through rank in organizations like Explorer Society or Royal Post Service (yep, with quests mostly focused on delivering letters and packages and rewards being mailman's hat, horn and access to mailboxes in remote locations) to bigger stories like conflict between 2 characters in charge of city slowly collapsing in absence of its original masters, one of which actually tried to solve its problems while the other one was focused on gaining as much power as they can. Many quests weren't about fighting some big bad evil, your character was doing odd jobs often just to gain access to an area or to get a new outfit so there wasn't really issue of motivations and role playing, when further down the line you were asked to actually go to some dangerous place it either came from you as you found the area in the first place and wanted to get inside it or it made sense for NPC to ask you for help and for you to accept since connection between you, these characters and this part of world was established, just as Tim described in the video. Example that is lurking in my head comes from questline on nordic-like snowy islands-you first went through tribal trials to get accepted into native society so you could live among them and get access to their net of dog sled for local travel, then you slowly worked your way by helping different members of that society with their more or less serious requests until dealing with more serious mystic/spiritual type issue arose while you were at that point heavily involved in local problems and already established yourself as part of community Last few updates before I stopped playing introduced more quests similar to other MMOs, mainly daily missions and tasks to kill certain amount of monsters. Nothing to write home about but those are still needed to keep people from boredom so I fully understand why they got the spotlight for a while to build some player retaining activities. Quests and some yearly events that require cooperation were also introduced and were quite fun, probably the best one required players to keep dozen or so lights scattered around the world lit for 2 or 3 real life days That is actually quite interesting how quests were never pushed on the player, you were never set up as the chosen one and they almost never were presented as something urgent, requiring dropping everything else and focusing on solving the issue. This must be combination of both the philosophy behind design and writing and technological limitations-Tibia doesn't have instances so you can't really make a huge set pieces in cities and other frequently visited locations since it would interfere with players passing by. More complex quests and bosses were then placed in remote locations, resulting in quests intended for high level characters to be naturally located in areas high level characters would be able to access. Somehow it all added up to quite wholesome and grounded experience that for me felt more immersive than any other MMO I've tried
This was the game that actually made me appreciate world building and work that goes into it, both when it comes to written lore found in books, letters, notes and being told to player by NPCs and details placed by mappers, it also made me appreciate working around the limitations of the engine and things like lack of special sprites since you can't have unique graphics drawn for every single location so I especially enjoyed exploring older locations (older in terms when they were created and implemented into the game), it is really impressive how much can be telegraphed to players with just few sprites they saw everywhere else but placed in certain manner. Same with engine limitations, Tibia doesn't or at least didn't (haven't really played it in more than a decade so I can't speak for its current state) have instances/cells, everything was placed inside same game map everyone else was playing at the same time even if you were teleported somewhere it still was somewhere on the same map, maybe few levels below or above the area you were just moment ago, it often helped with immersion since you almost always knew where you were in relation to something else, you knew for the fact that you literally moved to different level of the same building you were in. Even today I am still impressed with one very simple trick that was used in 2 of those older locations. Tibia is a 2D game with fairly odd perspective which I believe could be described most properly as oblique projection. Beside map consisting on X and Y axis there's also Z for each level placed above and below each other. Levels above ground (0) can be actually visible for player if they look at them from certain distance, as they get closer to the building or structure like mountain upper floors will disappear and they will see the level they are currently at. Clever map designers used this feature to simulate phenomenon of mirage-beautiful oasis players saw in the middle of desert would disappear when they came closer. Same in area haunted by all sorts of ghosts and dark magic-something that looked like lake was revealed to be a swamp or a house with people inside becomes ruins when you come closer. Yes, it is as lackluster as it sounds, I don't think it was even that cool 20 years ago when those things were mapped but somehow this very effect is permanently stuck in my head as example of small tricks and cleverness to get around the limitations. Not a line of script was needed, just using well established characteristic of the engine they were working on This is also what made me interested in behind the scenes and people involved in game development. I was especially impressed by story of one of the game content developers who goes by nickname Knightmare. He started as player, got involved in expanding the game world as volunteer and when guys behind the game formed a company he got hired. For a teenage me that was a dream story. As it happens many of my favourite locations and quests were written and designed by him and I'm not the only one who held such admiration and respect for the guy and his craft-countless discussion about Tibia lore, quests and mysteries on multiple forums, in multiple languages are usually revolving around his work since he pays a lot attention to details and perfected the art of storytelling through environment. Because of all that I've spent countless hours in map editor used by private, unofficial, community ran servers playing around with ideas and concepts, as someone remarkably untalented this was my canvas. Pretty sure I've spent more time tinkering in Open Tibia map editor and Morrowind construction set than playing majority of games Loved the mentions of NPC not willing to give you keys, that's actually what really made something click in my head and set this rambling off because in earlier days of Tibia many quests and areas were restricted by doors requiring key with specific number ID to open them, they were just items like any other that you could put in your backpack and such, worked both to unlock and lock the doors for you and others. While this system has some issues (especially with many being obtainable only once per character) it naturally created interesting scenarios and interactions between players since for example helpful players would carry them to unlock certain places for others, it would be also useful in PVP since you could trap someone inside area in hope they don't have their own key on them (reminder, they were just an item, taking up slot in your backpack) or quite the opposite-close and lock doors between you and player trying to kill you. Dying and loosing the key that was used in this video as excuse for an NPC was actually a real scenario since keys were just items and death used to be heavily penalised-including losing some of your equipment. At some point idea of keys was dropped and new quests and areas were built using scripted doors that would let player with certain level or quest flag through but still, it's just one of those quirks older and more niche games used to have Well, what started like short comment clearly escalated and I don't think there's even any point to it beside sharing my nostalgia and maybe some similarities when it comes to quest structure to what Tim was describing. Thanks for this video since it made me take a walk through memory lane I haven't visited in quite some time
This is probably the most animated you've been about anything you've talked about. The interest and excitement is palpable on this end. Some really good ideas here. 5:20 "MMOs are designed from the very beginninvg to keep you playing." Precisely why I personally despise them. They're all like, "Hey, you! Here's a virtual world. Leave the real one forever. Move in; settle down; spend your money." :) People seem to like them primarily for their social aspects: meeting new people online who share their interests when people who share our interests are highly likely to be few and far between in the real world, often even becoming life-long, real-world friends in the process. I personally preferred the online modes, e.g. JKII's, which themselves offered different modes of gameplay: FFA, Capture the Flag, Duel, etc. The online communities that grew up around them were generally kept to a reasonable size. No one was thrown onto a server with a few dozen to thousands of strangers and told, "Go make friends," in other words. (Probably why, when a playerbase is requesting a SP w/co-op mode and not a MMO, marketing executives might want to perk up and pay attention to what they're actually interested in playing.) I suspect a large part of the reason L4D was and is as successful as it was/is because people could choose between playing solo, co-op or PvP before ever entering a community server. 7:47 "Personalizing this...." This would be a boon for games, e.g. the Soulsborne series, methinks. From already does some of what you're covering, but the biggest complaint I hear about Soulsborne games is that they're too "cryptic." In fact, they're not actually cryptic; they're just designed more like puzzles with the puzzle pieces tucked away in monologue menus, item descriptions, etc. Those who care to seek them out either keep their own notes on paper or other media and kind of reverse engineer the triggers, etc., resulting in the inevitable wiki many consult while playing instead. An in-game journal the player writes themselves would be a boon for hybrid games like From Software's, imo. It's certainly technically feasible as mod authors have been creating personal journals in which players can record their thoughts while playing single players for years.
SWTOR did a very interesting approach where they made NPC's that were particularly likeable based on the storyline and some zones worked better than others but the approach was to make areas for everyone and let them choose which area that they really want to grind in. Secret World is one of the few that I really liked as well, where the NPC's are your 'home zone' and its more about the mystery. It had a lot of well used mechanics but the story, at least before the writers got let go, created an amazing, interconnected zones that made 'dungeon' runs really team driven and that created a lot of unusual interaction because the best gear came from 'team' content. The interactions of these two methods seem best in practice. If you get a chance, I would love to hear what you think about different types of MMOs that you haven't mentioned yet.
I think SWTOR did it brilliantly. Normally the MMORG main stories are extremely boring to do, but with SWTOR you got main stories that were made from the type of character you were. So, a bounty hunter would have a completely different main story than a sith jedi which made replayability more interesting.
Yeah - honestly, the biggest weakness of the SWTOR main stories was that they were tied to WoW style MMO mechanics. I had a lot of fun, but I was pretty much always thinking "This would be so much better if it didn't have these mechanics".
The best MMO's are the ones without a huge story IMO. Look at games like Runescape, there's a ton of little stories in the quests that build the world you are in but there's no huge story that you get dragged through while leveling. To me it's a bit naff having some big story where you are the hero in a game where thousands of people are running around doing the same. When the gameplay is fun I don't think anyone misses it.
Runescape has a massive 'main' story tho, kicked into gear by the death of Guthix. They also do fun little bottle quests, and youre free to ignore any quests and still access most content... so I guess RS is a good example of having it both ways!
@@artturihautanen Maybe RS3 does, I've not played it that much but I wouldn't say Old School does (I kinda forget RS3 exists tbh and just meant old school). I'd say RS has the best quests of any MMO i've played though, they are actually unique and fun to do unlike the usual MMO quests that always seem repetitive.
@@elobiretv I've actually not even tried Old School... Having made my character in 2004 I don't feel a specific connection to the 2007 state of the game. And since they've gone their own way with new content on OS anyway I don't even know if I'd like that version beyond nostalgic revisits to old stuff. I think the main game went the right way with upgrades to mechanics, QoL and especially the stories. I know I'll return to it again sometime like I have done every few years, and I'd quite like to check out OS too, probably as an Ironman! :)
I'm 25 now but as a kid I was obsessed with finding good MMORPGS, I wanted something like Perfect World International. My attention span was really bad, I downloaded 5+ MMORPGS a day trying them all, I've played every MMORPG from 2007-2012, never stuck with one though. Nowadays it feels a lot harder to find MMORPGS like they were back then, I liked a lot of the MMOs I played, I just was so overwhelmed by free games and wanted to try them all. If you know of any MMORPGs still going today that are like older MMORPGs I'd love to know. It's so cool you worked on an MMO as well, whether you stayed with it or not.
So getting started in 1998 would be Ultima Online or Meridian 59. I never played Meridian and I didn't try UO until after I'd started playing Everquest in 2002. Even EQ was pretty basic but they were starting to add quests and things really broke out, quest wise, with World of Warcraft in 2004. Vanilla WoW was one of my favorite MMORPG's. It had learned from the lessons of UO and EQ and had a wonderful balance of directed quests and open world exploration. Still, even with classic servers, I can still play EQ but have moved on from WoW. Star Wars Galaxies was another that I enjoyed at launch, mainly for the exploration and crafting, but it's dynamic spawning system (where more creatures would spawn in well travelled areas and fewer or even none in less travelled ones) meant that areas between cities, that had been teeming with herds and packs of animals at launch, became empty wastelands after a few months.
I think Morrowind has fantastic template for story which can be used in MMO "There is "Big Bad". Characters regularly name-drop them, expanding lore. But you can face Big Bad whenever you'll feel ready"
Only MMORPG where I got interested in the story right from the get-go was Age Of Conan, with the immediate goal being escaping slavery and then the starting island in general. The game used actual cutscenes and voiced dialog for the quest lines. Felt kind of like a console style RPG like KOTOR with the close third person perspective. Didn't feel like I was playing an MMO. Also loved the combat system balancing strategy with immersion: tab targeting (so wasn't a button masher) but at all times you had to pay attention to enemy movements and guard in different directions which kept you more engaged. The developer really tried to get you immersed and they are the only ones who succeeded in that regard, at least for me.
If you haven't already, I would definitely check out the Guild Wars series. Both games are mechanically distinct from each other, but they do a lot of the things you mentioned here. I'm most familiar with the second game, but I heavily recommend both. In GW2, your early story missions are decided entirely by the background choices you made at character creation, and then there are choices made throughout the main story that change which NPCs show up and which missions you do. Some of these carry over into the open world, as well. For example, if you choose to join the Order of Whispers faction, many NPCs throughout the world will have special info for you if you choose the right dialog option. It's convergent, so inevitably your story will end at the same place as everyone else, and the expansions have been significantly more linear, but the game retains a strong emphasis on casual and solo play, while not neglecting group content like raids, pvp, and open-world map-wide event chains and world-bosses. Every now and then, they still try to sprinkle in unique dialog for races and classes, especially because a lot of the expacs and story seasons focus on specific races in the world. If you're at all interested in exploring mmo game design further, it's a must-play.
Wildstar remains one of my favorite MMOs of all time. Everything from the worldbuilding, to the unique classes and crafting, to the incredible score by Jeff Kurtenacker. Losing that game was absolutely brutal and really marked the end of MMOs for me for several years until I got into FFXIV. It feels like a lot of modern MMOs are focused on catering to the single-player experience by making the gameplay "efficient" through mechanics like Raid and Dungeon Finders - but by doing so they nearly eliminate the reason to ever socialize with other players. They swing the pendulum too far in the direction of a single-player game at which point...is it really an MMO? Where really the balance is to focus on single-player storytelling that is *supported* by multiplayer social mechanics: requiring players to find and group up with each other to take down that terrible end-game world boss, talking in town squares to set up trades, etc. A lesson I hope upcoming MMOs like Ashes of Creation take into consideration.
RE: the cut scene thing. I'm a fairly regular player of the Elder Scrolls Online, and I think the big thing that drags down a lot of the cut scenes is that a lot of the time, it's for these bare bones stories that don't really have a lot of depth. With a single player RPG like Vampire: The Masquerade--Bloodlines or Deus Ex or whatever, the main story lasts for like 30-40 hours or whatever, but that's not really the case with ESO. Most ongoing quest lines will last 8-10 quests, which in reality is probably 8-10 hours of playtime for the average player. Sure, with the core game, a lot of these zone-specific stories will follow on from each other, but it's kind of in the same way a show like Stargate SG-1 or Buffy the Vampire Slayer would have an ongoing plot across the show or season, but every episode could be seen as a standalone thing for the most part. Because of that, there isn't really as much investment in the current quest line. Yes, the cinematic cut scene will be epic, but it doesn't feel the same way it would in a single player RPG because it doesn't feel like the scene has been earned to the same extent. Plus, I think the other thing is that quite often people will want to do a certain zone's quest line because it gives them a good armour set for their current character, so they're automatically not as invested because they're really just ticking the boxes so they can get the piece of armour they want for their set that's a reward for finishing this quest or the one after.
Just recently found out you make videos, so I've been binging them! (Yes, I live under a rock. Probably owned by Vault-Tec.) But I'm really excited to watch this video, I absolutely love MMORPGs. WoW and ESO are my personal favorites.
Yes. I really wonder what he'd think of ESO. Lot of storytelling in it. It also does what he wants in an MMO, in some aspects. A short intro to the main story (wailing prison/similar intro dungeon. Then, it's smaller self-contained zone stories related to the main one. It ends with the big preparation in CH.
I think one thing a private server of CoH I play does, which all MMO's should adopt, is having missions level to your character and allowing the player to change the difficulty. I think you shouldn't be able to outlevel content and miss it, so if you skip around zones you can always come back and do early quests even if you're at levelcap. But you can change the level of enemies you want to encounter, and the amount. If you want easier missions where you just want to get it done, you can make enemies lower level and have less of them, or vice versa up the level and amount of enemies for more challenge. Some fights should be hard, but players should have the ability to tweak quest difficulty to how they want to play. I always loved how I could be levelcap with a group of 5 other people in a supergroup, and we do +2/x4, enemies 2 levels higher, 4x more enemies. So missions or quests that are easier can still be done in a fun way with a full group, or done solo. And if a mission is too hard you can lower difficulty, but you still don't outlevel the content and risk missing it. You can always come back when you have more tools, and it's always waiting there for you.
If everything levels to me, there is no real sense of progression. Being able to "outlevel" an area, is a classic sign of growth, and why it's such a bad game design move to have everything level to you perfectly. A compromise to this, is having "Level bands" for a region, so one region might be Levels 1-15, and after that, you've exhausted the region, and can totally rip through it if you come back.
Thanks for another good video Tim! Personally I believe it helps to give the players the tools to tell their own stories within the game once the endgame is completed. And even for an MMO, you have to let the story end. Or at least shift the focus in expansions from having to fight another, bigger threat than the first one. Some games out there don't know when to stop the narrative power creep. I also believe there is a lot of untapped potential for tying narrative in MMOs to replayability. Especially when it comes to making development tools for dynamic storytelling and emergent narrative, especially now with the advent of machine learning and AI.
Solo instances is the biggest reason I dropped fallout 76 (before anyone asks, I didn't play it until well after launch, I know there were plenty of reasons to not play at launch lol)
One of the most popular MMORPGs at the moment, Final Fantasy XIV, has a very long, linear and mandatory storyline which gates every single piece of content in the game. And the people who love the game love it for the story. Which proves that there isn't a single right answer to MMO stories, because MMO players aren't in any way a homogenous group, they have different preferences just like players of any other genre.
Pretty much agreed, but what are core things that keep player to play and enjoy the game, even if all content is consumed. From my experience: it is the community, freedom, roleplaying elements, inventing new tactics or testing new character builds. For someone it can be collecting certain items, or can be game pvp that gets very competive, then it can keep up the interest. Few things in mmos general that are hard to balance: economy, time spending to get certain loot, loot statistics, power gap of maximed and more casual player (too big cap reward nolife grinders). Also any thought about providing endless progression (in a way that it wont make player overpowered)? Should there be forced (skippable) tutorial at the beginning? I think usually best would be not too much handhelding, but just directing player into direction/locations where he can learn more and progress, but keep it as optional.
The more sandboxy ones revolving around things like fighting over stuff with opposing factions make me wonder what the future of dynamic/evolving stories might look like, I noped out of Planetside quickly but loved that concept so much. I wonder if carefully (And continually) currating an AI could be what gets closest to something infinitely compelling, I've got a feeling we're gonna see some stuff previously thought to be forever overambitious. It's probably gonna be super rocky, there will be formulaic things, ones without cohesion, ones that just feel vapid and uninspired, gameplay aspects and writing etc. alike, but I think it's gonna be a matter of time before it all gets refined. Things are certainly different when AI is involved, but as someone who makes music, I've always been obsessed with this idea that stuff is kinda just out there in the aether, and even if it's an AI that stumbles upon it, it can still have meaning to the observer. As someone who feels that way, through the plentiful issues, I mostly see a personally positive future where AI helps us explore more of that aether, even in ways we couldn't realistically do ourselves. It helps that I don't financially depend on getting noticed in what is ALREADY a sea of other things trying to get noriced. I've been exploring that aether in all sorts of ways that are compelling to me in their own ways, ranging from deliberate to haphazard, often a continuous back-and-forth between the two... This is like sending a drone out there to see what it'll find, that blows my mind. All that knowledge and experience means I can even direct it, and when it spits out a result, I can have it iterate. Again, this just absolutely blows my mind.
@4:16 Yes, but isn't it the case that RPGs have to be linear to some degree in the sense that there is predetermined ending and you have to meet certain conditions to get there?
I'd love to see Tim work on a looter shooter. Watching his channel has made me more aware the design similarities between action rpgs and mmos. Looter shooters fit this vin diagram nicely, but so far most examples have weak stories besides maybe Borderlands.
How have you been able to invest yourself in multiple MMOs? I play one and I don't have it in me to get invested in another one because the time commitment to build just one good character is already such a massive time sink. I barely have additional time to play standard games.
That's the problem for me too, just getting to the level cap in 1 MMO takes way too much time. In most mmo's I've quit long before the end of the story.
I was REALLY into MMOs for a long time, from 1998 to about 2013 or so. Also, since I was making one from 2005 to 2011, I played them as much for research as for fun.
@@CainOnGames Ah ok that makes more sense when considering the research element. Thank you Tim for all these videos. I don't even work in game development but there's something so relaxing and heartwarming about listening to you speak. If I ever met you irl I'd want to give you a hug (fat chance of running into you in Ireland!). Love you man. :)
The only MMO I have a great deal of experience with has been the Elder Scrolls Online. I've always found it way less intimidating when playing due to the make-up of the world. Each new expansion and addition to the world feels like a new game which I can engage with even if I've taken a break. There is never that fear that I've missed something and am going to have to spend hours catching up to engage with the content I came back for! I also loved your idea for an in-game newspaper. That would be so awesome and help make the world feel so much more alive! P.S. Loving the Videos!
I've player ESO a bit as well, but the business practices of the company and the quality of stories wasn't there for me. After all the MMOs I've tried I must say Guild Wars 2 is absolutely worth trying!
Well, concerning you never made an MMO(RPG) and you couldn't finish Wildstar/get your ideas into that game: Do you know that there's a small (private server) community out there trying to rebuild it? And afaik they struggle a lot (?) with reengineering the backend/code and other aspects of basic functionalities. I think they'd be happy just for an experienced opinion or two concerning this or that... 😉
Hi Tim, big fan of the stuff you've been putting out! I showed my friend your stuff and he's fallen in love just as much as I have with your storytelling and wit! He brought up to me a question that I don't think you've answered yet! What are your complete thoughts on the current state of Fallout or, rather, how Fallout has evolved since your work on the original?
You ever play The Secret World? That was 2012, so it was contemporary to your time on Wildstar, though near the end. I think story in MMOs is still not a totally solved problem, but that game really set a new bar when it came to multiplayer storytelling and general pacing. But even though a decent chunk of people loved it, it highlighted an audience clash: Players who rush to the endgame, and players who take their time leveling up. It's hard to satisfy both, because the main story can only be put in one of those two places - and the ratio of player types is apparently becoming quite skewed these days. It makes me think a lot of your ideas are probably outdated, now. I've yet to find an MMO that fully recaptures that old feeling.
I don't agree that backloading a linear story will make the players any more engaged with it. I think trying to tell anything like that at all conflicts with the MMO audiences' expectation of the game. The best structured, lengthy stories people remember from these games either take place outside of actual play, like books and set dressing, are told as group experiences, like your own MMO stories, or are enjoyable *in spite* of the type of game they're in, like FF14. If you set up the standard sandbox and quest to quest play during the leveling process and the player keeps enjoying the game this way, that's the type of content that will continue to appeal to them. They're just gonna chase after the carrot you're pressured to hand at the end of it, ignoring the storyline presented, like the example with the key, or avoid it completely. That's what you've taught them to do up to that point. The entire structure of the setting decays when you put in hundreds of players through it, you can't present it in a believable way while keeping the integrity of the genre. The best storylines in WoW and many of the games you've personally played in the past are the ones told through player to player interactions.
I could not get into MMO's. It wasn't because of the story or gameplay... it's because of the grind (and the usual monthly cost or battle pass schedule involved too). I am playing D4 now and it has the grind of an MMO but the gameplay ARPG. Still trying to figure out how I feel about it. I do like your take about having the bulk of the story at the end. In open world games, I tend to explore and try to find stuff on my own and circle back to the main story later (or when I have to). And games like Ark has too much chaos for me and like no story (from what I can figure out). So having a goal at the end and figuring out your own way to get there sounds like the perfect marriage of the two. PS. How many popsicle button downs do you have? I that a "Tim-ism" or a happy coincidence? Thanks again :)
The worst stories in MMO's seem to be ones that treat you as "Chosen One" not taking into account the immediate immersion break when you see everyone else in the world with the same title. Seems easy to me to write MMO stories that prize the idea of groups making things happen in the world. You could have region spanning events, like an invasion (or the players being the invaders) into a region, and trying to repel/take over their territories. Like the "Raids" of Pokemon GO, could have like a meter that needs to be filled up by the community to repel the invaders, and fills by taking down dungeons they're in, "Capture the flag", taking down mobs, defending towns, and of course successful raids that require tons of players to do.
Mr. Cain, I have a question regarding the inspiration from the Outer Worlds franchise. Did Robert Heinlein's book "The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress" serve as a piece that helped inspire the idea of lunar colonies and corrupt corporations as a main theme throughout the series?
Just keep the scope down and you can have it done within a few years or less. It won't be on the scale of WoW, but a fun and addictive MMO can be made.
How about players becoming boss or mid-boss fights themselves in instances? You conquer a dungeon and then your avatar becomes part of the instance until defeated in one-on-one combat by another player. Players could then compete for control over areas, and the longer they control an area the greater their fame or fortune grows.
I like environments where you can set your own goals athat are sort of long term with interlocking requirements that maybe have multiple solutions (these don't have to be huge but they might create a PC's track record that comes into play later). I don't think it strays from the formula of needing people to stick around, but if there's the keep on the mountain sort of thing, and you need to work your way up to that, your character's sort of progression is based on assailing that place, and if there are like several endgame sort of goals like that, alongside rumblings from powerful people (i.e. players and powerful NPCs who are in these locations making decisions) that affect the world's timers, events, with some sort of understanding that the players are exploring the environment and lining up these goals for themselves (or, of course, people start making how-to guides. I sort of wonder what MMOs are like before an authoritative FAQ is available). I feel like creators settled into formulas. When I hear old stories about the weirdness of Everquest it makes me wonder if there are still other design possibilities. Thanks, this got me thinking
Most of the MMO players I know would hate this. Getting them to do quests just to level up is like pulling teeth. I know so many who will do nothing but run group instanced (dungeons) content over and over or go to spots and just grind out XP killing the same mobs over and over. They don't care about story or lore and are only there for the loot rewards. Even when you force them to do quests they don't read the quest text or listen to voice overs. And you better have the quest location marked on the map so they can find it fast, go kill something quickly and come back to turn it in. I used to play MMOs but have given up and only play old single player RPGs any more. I would play Tim's MMO, it sounds fun.
I'm a big MMO fan and more than the story itself, my biggest issue with MMO story telling is how that story is told. I completely bounced off FFXIV since the gameplay of the story boiled down to 'go place, watch cutscene, repeat' with a bit of filler combat and the odd instance between. After the 20th cutscene I just couldn't care anymore. On the other hand, I think my favourite bit of MMO story telling is the Defias story in vanilla WoW. As a human character, you start off dealing with bandits harassing people around Elwynn, then learn about their attempts to undermine Stormwind as you progress through Westfall, Deadmines, and Stockades, and then it culminates a hundred hours later with the Onyxia storyline. It's all told in a way that's very lowkey and players can be as invested as they want, but regardless of your investment, has the player go through a variety of content and characters, and gives context to one of the first major end-game encounters you'll have. It has a subtlety to the 'how' that feels so magnetic.
I don't like that MMO's feel so database-driven. Enemies stand around in a certain location waiting for you to kill them. Once they are killed, they spawn back in a minute or two. I'd like to see a dynamic persistent world where everything and everyone has it's goal and the world can change around it. The MMO Wakfu does a little bit of it, depending on how many plants are planted, the region stat changes. (An example of this could be that if players harvest all the trees in an area, it becomes a desert, and players will have to manually replant some trees to get it back to forest type) For example let there be an Enemy NPC sorcerer who roams around the world, constructing spawner locations and infects the world. When players clean them, it stays clean and maybe villagers will start to settle villages again. Maybe a Blacksmith needs Iron to make weapons, so players bring the NPC iron so he can upgrade his shop and make better weapons for the players. But if the players don't protect the village, the blacksmith could be attacked and destroyed by the invading enemies. Dynamic storylines can be created like this too... a son has been kidnapped by a roaming bandit horde. A villager tells you it's last location, and you have to hurry up there or they might have relocated again. Another person around could maybe tell you where they went next. Another example of a dynamic storyline is that the villagers have sent out a few of their own into the mountains to kill the animals there, because they keep hassling the village, except they didn't return yet. Maybe the group is still working on it and you can join them and help them out. Or if you are too late... they're probably already dead. Like this, these quests can be given to only some players and not all. Every players will have it's own adventure but groups will dynamically form for a common goal. And if a quest is done, it's no longer relevant for other players to complete. It's a bit weird in MMO's that there's this big monster that a group of players kill... but then the next group comes and kills it again.... nothing ever changes except the player's experience level. Since MMO's are database-driven, I don't understand why they don't use their database entities as morphing entities instead of static ones. Let the enemies roam around the world and zones, don't levelgate areas. This way, there won't be a beginner zone that experienced players don't need to come back to. If a certain part of the world is left alone for too long by the players, the enemies will invade it and it'll be a more dangerous zone. And just spawn all new players in a random town in the world instead of a "noob-zone". (Of course an optional separate tutorial island or introduction part could be done to introduce players to the game.)
This video has made me decide to try an MMO for the first time. I think I would prefer one either with a lot of story content, or a freindly community that helps build their own fun organic stories, ideally both. Do y'all in the comments have any recommendations. My PC is fairly weak, so I cant do super high end stuff either
Idk I've only played FFXIV and only the ARR main quest at that, so since It has a free trial just try that if you can run it. You can also play heavensward which is apparently much better but the Inbetween quests killed my enjoyment LoTR online is completely free I think, so that too
I heard that Star Wars Galaxies has some fan made servers, and that game at least used to be incredible for player-to-player stories. As long as your PC or even laptop came out in the last 10 years you should be able to run it no problem. For more scripted story I can also say I had a blast with the starting zone of Age of Conan, as a fun multi-hour long Conan rpg adventure. The rest of the game sadly doesn't keep to that level of quality, but if that had a stand alone release I think it would've done well. Sadly it's been too long since I played any to suggest others myself but you might look into Final Fantasy 14, and Guild Wars 2, as I've heard those are great if you have the time and computer good enough to get to where the games really shine
Well, I've made other comments describing my feelings about Tibia and its quest and vibe in general, it's quite a rambling but may interest you since it has backlog of 25 years of adding content. But be warned that my experience also ended decade ago so some things surely have changed and I can't speak of quality of newer content but what was there when I left should still be there almost untouched When it comes to "build their own fun organic stories", not sure if any MMO offers it but if you're interested in smaller scope there's a game called Space Station 13 that allows you and few dozens of players to work on space station. I can't even begin to describe how flexible this game is, amount of things players can do, jobs they can have and things that can go wrong is staggering. Each round lasts usually 1-2 hours, few of crew members are assigned antagonist roles with certain objectives to fulfill and rest is up to you, both antags and regular crew members can influence the game and no round is the same. I would recommend checking the reviews of SS13 at least for the entertainment sake
Are you at all familiar with Final Fantasy XIV? It's quite different to what you described regarding a sort of main end-game scenario in that the story in XIV is mandatory and follows you throughout the entire game, from level 1 to cap and then even more story in additional end-game patches that lead up to the next expansion. Despite that, the game is arguably the most popular MMO right now and it's story is one of its most highly praised things about it. I recommend checking out Noclip's documentary on the game and its original failed 1.0 version if you haven't seen it, its an incredible turn-around. Coincidentally, the next expansion for the game is due to be announced tomorrow.
Ha, I just commented about FFXIV too. But... really? They're announcing the next expansion tomorrow!? I haven't played since I finished the Endwalker MSQ, so I'm kind of out of the loop :P
I'm guessing Final Fantasy 14 would be absolutely antithetical to your design/gameplay sensibilities, it breaks most/all of the things you listed as disliking in MMOs, and pretty much all the things you said MMO players hate are big selling points that FF14 players love (Cinematics, forced dungeons, forced events, linearity of zones etc). But I also feel like it has to be the starting point of any discussion about MMO stories because it's so far ahead of any other MMO story that it practically eclipses the entire genre in itself, with FF11 being the sole exception. When it comes to MMO Stories, FF14 is the WoW, or the Fornite, or the Dark Souls, or the Hollow Knight. It's the apex that defines the conversations and conventions in a very similar way to how Terry Pratchett talked about Tokein and Mt Fuji.
As the game adds new areas and ups the level limit, then more end game storyline is added as part of the new content. That's why I mentioned leaving some unsolved mysteries and loose ends in the story, to be followed up on later.
6:08 That's the worst thing a mmo can do. I hate when they force a solo content into a game that I'm playing for the main reason of being able to play with friends.
FFXIV: way too much story, but good GW2: way too much story, but bad SWtoR: way too much story, but good WoW up to WotLK: perfect amount of story New World: what story?
The issue I see saving the main story for the endgame is that the overwhelming majority of your players are never going to make it that far. Which means you're putting all these narrative resources towards telling a story that a tiny percentage of your players are ever going to experience.
Since I value player agency above all else in my games, your argument is true for anything that I add. The player is free to ignore whole areas of the game, or to avoid picking up companions, or to skip conversations and just run around killing things. But I still add those features. I think all players will experience the background and zone stories, where a lot of NPC and lore information is provided. If they choose to skip the end story, that's no different than the majority of WoW players who skip raids. I am fine with it.
please try FFXIV I don't know if you're a big gamer at the moment, but even if it's just for the first expansion or two, I highly recommend giving it a try for the story alone. You may hate it, you may like it, but the community is super lovely and I loved the story personally
Im not surprised you quit the mmo that put you and your mate in diffrent caves. Mmos live on the interaction between people. It is their strength. And just like a healthy person using a crutch it cripples them in the long run. Without people an MMO is garbage because the format itself isnt very good. Interaction between people can always be interesting though. But as games they are weak (crippled). Played a lot of WoW back in the day. Had so much fun. Good memories. All of the memories are about playing arenas with lots of fun mates etc. Im sure blizzard spent a lot of money on writing, gameplay, mechanics and all of those were decent. Ive played hundreds of decent games (pillars, outer worlds, vandal hearts, knockout kings etc etc). None of them make a lasting impression like WoW did. Why? Because of the people. Now how does WoW stack up against Fallout? Very poorly. Fallout has captured my imagination since i first played it. Years before i played WoW i played fallout 1 and fallout 2. And when i played WoW i still played Fallout. Then i played f3 and New Vegas and i was absolutely amazed by the world of Fallout. One day i was bored of WoW and never played again. The world means nothing to me. I still play f1-4 and nv and the world is the best thing in entertainment. Arcanum i also played before WoW and still do. The world also has that special something. Sadly it never got an Fallout 3, NV and F4.
Final Fantasy XIV has, IMO, the best storytelling of any game, ever. Of course, that comes with two major disclaimers... a) you have to be into the whole JRPG style of game, and b) the cohesion and momentum of the narrative comes at the cost of ignoring (kind of... see paragraph 2) a lot of what makes an MMORPG what it is. In many ways FFXIV and its expansions are like single-player FF games bolted onto the framework of an MMO. And as time goes on, they've only increased the single player nature of the game. It's now almost possible to go through the entire thing and only be required to interact with other players at a handful of key moments. So in that sense FFXIV has made a lot of concessions to ensure the story is as strong as possible. The thing is, though, that they really haven't ignored the MMO elements at all, they've just made them separate from the main narrative. There's a strong and vibrant community, and if you choose to dive into it, there are so, so many things to do with that community. It really is an amazing game.
Provactive question - what went wrong during Outer Worlds development? I hope you do not consider this as an insult. Im a big fan of your previous works, especially Arcanum and Bloodlines, but Outer Worlds is baaaad.
Hey Tim, just wanted ask if you think the idea of Fallout 76 could of been executed well enough to be accepted in the fallout community, or just that the idea of a MMO/multiplayer Fallout game is pretty much a failed premise?
Tim has said multiple times that he's not going to comment on other development studios' games. I can, though. :) Personally, I think 76 very well could have been among the best Fallout games ever made...under vastly different circumstances than those in which it was developed. Were players alllowed to play through the base game content as a SP; actually meet the members of the factions struggling through the aftermath and struggle through it with them, all the factions being kept unique to the original vision of them; and allowed to romp through W. Va. in a MP co-op mode free of the Fallout theme park mood and atmosophere that's plastered over all that potential greatness. As it is, I'm personally saddened beyond measure or words that it's truest potential likely will never be realized.
"Even BioWare, which built its success on a reputation for good stories and characters, slowly turned from a company that vocally valued its writers to one where we were... quietly resented, with a reliance on expensive narrative seen as the 'albatross' holding the company back." ~ David Gaider Hopefully, this is a passing trend in the industry and we can get back to interacting with memorable, meaningful stories and characters soon. It's fascinated with AI-generated content, atm.
@@lrinfi quite frankly, the only bioware games i ever played were the first two baldur's gate games. and i loved them, especially the second game. bought several copies cause the disks would be unreadable from too much use. these games were definitely not sandbox titles. can't say anything about what came after that.
Chosen One mmo stories are awful. The best MMOs have stories that appreciate the significance of players as individuals, allowing players to drive the story where possible. They're living worlds, not movies.
Hi Tim, big fan of the stuff you've been putting out! I showed my friend your stuff and he's fallen in love just as much as I have with your storytelling and wit! He brought up to me a question that I don't think you've answered yet! What are your complete thoughts on the current state of Fallout or, rather, how Fallout has evolved since your work on the original?
Ive been writing this adventure where the story has layers that sit on top of each other. The game has a focus on exploration so it was important from the start that the story motivate adventure and for the adventure to be the key to the story.
I do this by layering the story with the Past Narrative, the Parallel Narrative, and the Progressive Narrative. The Past Narrative is the bones of my story. It is not lore, but it reveals lore. It is a particular tale, like a movie or a campfire story with a beginning and a middle and a mystery that suggests a tragic end. You discover this story in pieces as you explore, like when you uncover audio logs in a horror game that tells you the fate of those who died.
The adventure progresses with you in competition for the understanding of this Past Narrative by those whose agenda and plans run contemporary to your own, in the Parallel Narrative. This story has a timer, its own schedule, and so your own Progressive Narrative may arrive before/after/or during their own arrival when you discover pieces of the Past Narrative.
The Progressive Narrative is what the players generate based off a need for particular resources or their own curiosity and sense of adventure, which the game elicits through almost every ability in the game being discovered through exploration.
0:38 I'm just imagining a journalist asking in that very tone and cadence "Do interviews make you long for death's sweet embrace?" and Time Cain crying out "Yes! Like nothing else!" xD I love the video!
A lot of what you said reminded me of interviews with Guild Wars 2 developers, where they tried to make chain events with some consequences for the players, and also started with personalized stories before going for the epic stuff.
Those ArenaNet folks know their stuff
I like it how you basically described the story progression of Lord of the Rings Online. First there's the hook story in the starting area aka "Something foul's afoot", then there are the zone-specific stories and the overarching world story of the Lord of the Rings
IMO it's still THE best MMO anyone's come out with since Ultima Online.
I've returned to it for the 2nd time and even with boosting a character to the highest one can, I still did the main book quests and quite a few 'zone' quests with no significant reward other than seeing the world unfold and all the work the creators spent time writing into the game.
Yeah, LOTRO is still amazing, in that regard. It feels a bit bloated and unfocused these days, but that underlying core is still intact.
The story is always the most important thing for me in single player, but I've never been able to make myself care about the story in an MMO.
Often there is a huge disconnect between what you're being told and what you see, the story is telling you that the world is in peril and everyone is doomed, but I look around me and people are dancing, bunny hopping and doing all sorts of carefree things, I'm not going to care if those around me don't.
I'm much like you, I've tried few MMOs but I must recommend Guild Wars 2 for you, it's actually pretty damn good story wise and mechanically. Of course the disconnect is there for major setpieces but otherwise it's great!
@@TheLazyFinn I did play that back in the day, not for long but it did seem to be a lot better than the others.
@@JimUK Yea, and the thing is that the main quest is good but it gets even better after that once you hit the level cap and start getting into end game and play the expansion content
I love your profile picture, I've really been into New Vegas lately and love the storytelling and choices.
@@DangItRed It's a classic, so many games claim to have meaningful choices but New Vegas is one of the few that deliver on it.
I was just a pirate marauder who arrived at the port of Limsa Lominsa in search of adventure. As my horizons broadened, I joined the gladiators' guild in the city state of Ul'dah, which eventually set me on the path to becoming a paladin. Little did I know where this path would take me...
Their song of hope, she danced upon the wind-higher, oh, higher
E'er their vows endured, and remained forever strong
Standing tall in the dark did they carry on
On wings of hope, I rise up through the night-higher, oh, higher
Carrying their song cradled fast within my arms
That its chorus might ring for all
I love it!
Storytelling is why Final Fantasy XIV is both my favorite MMO and also my 2nd favorite Final Fantasy game overall. It feels like a game that is truly trying to be both an MMO and a genuine Final Fantasy single player adventure.
That is not to say that it doesnt do the MMO side great, particularly when it comes to community and that sense of playing for any number of reasons whether its raiding, crafting, designing your player home, or just hanging out with other players in the main cities. Moreso what I mean is that for all the gameplay additions and tweaks they make to the game that is of course whats to be expected of an MMO, it never forgets that it is also here to tell you a fantastic plot that threads from one expansion to the next.
Its the kind of game that I can resubscribe to when new patches or an expansion drops, do all of the new main story quest, and then move on to another game, knowing that the next arc of the story will be on its way in due time.
While I don't do group content quite as much as I used to, I have no issue doing the required trials needed to advance the story, because to me, furthering that main plot is the reward, not whatever gear I'm going for. I get gear to further my power so I can continue to do main plot.
6:07, I don't know much about mmos, but this was my experience in a game called SWTOR. This hit me because I remember one of my first instanced zones being in a cave.
I was wondering if he was referring to SWTOR indeed! I agree it's very immersion breaking and feels underwhelming that by default people of the same class can't enter the same story instantiated area (and even if you enable it, you still have to complete the instance for every players in the group if you all want to advance). I'm pretty sure you can progress the story together on Makeb (Rise of the Hutt Cartel expansion) and that must be one of the reasons why I remember having lots of fun doing that section with friends.
I totally thought of that when he mentioned it.
Quite interesting topic that brought up few memories for me.
I've spent my youth playing MMORPG called Tibia, it's surprisingly unknown in US, especially considering it's one of the oldest one still running and it was heavily based off Ultima VI (started as student project literally using sprites and mechanics straight from U6) but it used to be huge in Germany, Sweden, Poland and Brazil.
It was actually quite organic with its quests. No story line was pushed on player (I remember Cipsoft, company behind it, was attempting something like that on tutorial island while they were revamping new player experience, trying to push some linear areas at very start to show basics and then actually make 'the main baddy' of their storyline show up in front of you to kinda scare you off and establish they are bad and you should deal with them but luckily they dropped that idea and revamped the starting area again). Everyone would start on newbie island called Rookgaard where you would gain experience until level 8 with option to do some quests then you would choose your vocation-class (knight, paladin (which was actually archer), sorcerer or druid) and one of the mainland cities to get teleported to. Then you were just thrown into that city and off you go, you were left to your own devices, you could travel to other mainland cities on your feet or if you had premium account (paid one) you could travel instantly via ship and you could pick up quests as you pleased.
There wasn't any big overarching story, everything felt actually quite cozy, you were just one of many adventurers living in that world and quests reflected that-they could be anything from picking up item NPC claims they lost, through joining and rising through rank in organizations like Explorer Society or Royal Post Service (yep, with quests mostly focused on delivering letters and packages and rewards being mailman's hat, horn and access to mailboxes in remote locations) to bigger stories like conflict between 2 characters in charge of city slowly collapsing in absence of its original masters, one of which actually tried to solve its problems while the other one was focused on gaining as much power as they can.
Many quests weren't about fighting some big bad evil, your character was doing odd jobs often just to gain access to an area or to get a new outfit so there wasn't really issue of motivations and role playing, when further down the line you were asked to actually go to some dangerous place it either came from you as you found the area in the first place and wanted to get inside it or it made sense for NPC to ask you for help and for you to accept since connection between you, these characters and this part of world was established, just as Tim described in the video. Example that is lurking in my head comes from questline on nordic-like snowy islands-you first went through tribal trials to get accepted into native society so you could live among them and get access to their net of dog sled for local travel, then you slowly worked your way by helping different members of that society with their more or less serious requests until dealing with more serious mystic/spiritual type issue arose while you were at that point heavily involved in local problems and already established yourself as part of community
Last few updates before I stopped playing introduced more quests similar to other MMOs, mainly daily missions and tasks to kill certain amount of monsters. Nothing to write home about but those are still needed to keep people from boredom so I fully understand why they got the spotlight for a while to build some player retaining activities.
Quests and some yearly events that require cooperation were also introduced and were quite fun, probably the best one required players to keep dozen or so lights scattered around the world lit for 2 or 3 real life days
That is actually quite interesting how quests were never pushed on the player, you were never set up as the chosen one and they almost never were presented as something urgent, requiring dropping everything else and focusing on solving the issue. This must be combination of both the philosophy behind design and writing and technological limitations-Tibia doesn't have instances so you can't really make a huge set pieces in cities and other frequently visited locations since it would interfere with players passing by. More complex quests and bosses were then placed in remote locations, resulting in quests intended for high level characters to be naturally located in areas high level characters would be able to access. Somehow it all added up to quite wholesome and grounded experience that for me felt more immersive than any other MMO I've tried
This was the game that actually made me appreciate world building and work that goes into it, both when it comes to written lore found in books, letters, notes and being told to player by NPCs and details placed by mappers, it also made me appreciate working around the limitations of the engine and things like lack of special sprites since you can't have unique graphics drawn for every single location so I especially enjoyed exploring older locations (older in terms when they were created and implemented into the game), it is really impressive how much can be telegraphed to players with just few sprites they saw everywhere else but placed in certain manner. Same with engine limitations, Tibia doesn't or at least didn't (haven't really played it in more than a decade so I can't speak for its current state) have instances/cells, everything was placed inside same game map everyone else was playing at the same time even if you were teleported somewhere it still was somewhere on the same map, maybe few levels below or above the area you were just moment ago, it often helped with immersion since you almost always knew where you were in relation to something else, you knew for the fact that you literally moved to different level of the same building you were in.
Even today I am still impressed with one very simple trick that was used in 2 of those older locations. Tibia is a 2D game with fairly odd perspective which I believe could be described most properly as oblique projection. Beside map consisting on X and Y axis there's also Z for each level placed above and below each other. Levels above ground (0) can be actually visible for player if they look at them from certain distance, as they get closer to the building or structure like mountain upper floors will disappear and they will see the level they are currently at. Clever map designers used this feature to simulate phenomenon of mirage-beautiful oasis players saw in the middle of desert would disappear when they came closer. Same in area haunted by all sorts of ghosts and dark magic-something that looked like lake was revealed to be a swamp or a house with people inside becomes ruins when you come closer. Yes, it is as lackluster as it sounds, I don't think it was even that cool 20 years ago when those things were mapped but somehow this very effect is permanently stuck in my head as example of small tricks and cleverness to get around the limitations. Not a line of script was needed, just using well established characteristic of the engine they were working on
This is also what made me interested in behind the scenes and people involved in game development. I was especially impressed by story of one of the game content developers who goes by nickname Knightmare. He started as player, got involved in expanding the game world as volunteer and when guys behind the game formed a company he got hired. For a teenage me that was a dream story. As it happens many of my favourite locations and quests were written and designed by him and I'm not the only one who held such admiration and respect for the guy and his craft-countless discussion about Tibia lore, quests and mysteries on multiple forums, in multiple languages are usually revolving around his work since he pays a lot attention to details and perfected the art of storytelling through environment.
Because of all that I've spent countless hours in map editor used by private, unofficial, community ran servers playing around with ideas and concepts, as someone remarkably untalented this was my canvas. Pretty sure I've spent more time tinkering in Open Tibia map editor and Morrowind construction set than playing majority of games
Loved the mentions of NPC not willing to give you keys, that's actually what really made something click in my head and set this rambling off because in earlier days of Tibia many quests and areas were restricted by doors requiring key with specific number ID to open them, they were just items like any other that you could put in your backpack and such, worked both to unlock and lock the doors for you and others. While this system has some issues (especially with many being obtainable only once per character) it naturally created interesting scenarios and interactions between players since for example helpful players would carry them to unlock certain places for others, it would be also useful in PVP since you could trap someone inside area in hope they don't have their own key on them (reminder, they were just an item, taking up slot in your backpack) or quite the opposite-close and lock doors between you and player trying to kill you. Dying and loosing the key that was used in this video as excuse for an NPC was actually a real scenario since keys were just items and death used to be heavily penalised-including losing some of your equipment.
At some point idea of keys was dropped and new quests and areas were built using scripted doors that would let player with certain level or quest flag through but still, it's just one of those quirks older and more niche games used to have
Well, what started like short comment clearly escalated and I don't think there's even any point to it beside sharing my nostalgia and maybe some similarities when it comes to quest structure to what Tim was describing. Thanks for this video since it made me take a walk through memory lane I haven't visited in quite some time
This is probably the most animated you've been about anything you've talked about. The interest and excitement is palpable on this end. Some really good ideas here.
5:20 "MMOs are designed from the very beginninvg to keep you playing." Precisely why I personally despise them. They're all like, "Hey, you! Here's a virtual world. Leave the real one forever. Move in; settle down; spend your money." :)
People seem to like them primarily for their social aspects: meeting new people online who share their interests when people who share our interests are highly likely to be few and far between in the real world, often even becoming life-long, real-world friends in the process. I personally preferred the online modes, e.g. JKII's, which themselves offered different modes of gameplay: FFA, Capture the Flag, Duel, etc. The online communities that grew up around them were generally kept to a reasonable size. No one was thrown onto a server with a few dozen to thousands of strangers and told, "Go make friends," in other words. (Probably why, when a playerbase is requesting a SP w/co-op mode and not a MMO, marketing executives might want to perk up and pay attention to what they're actually interested in playing.) I suspect a large part of the reason L4D was and is as successful as it was/is because people could choose between playing solo, co-op or PvP before ever entering a community server.
7:47 "Personalizing this...." This would be a boon for games, e.g. the Soulsborne series, methinks. From already does some of what you're covering, but the biggest complaint I hear about Soulsborne games is that they're too "cryptic." In fact, they're not actually cryptic; they're just designed more like puzzles with the puzzle pieces tucked away in monologue menus, item descriptions, etc. Those who care to seek them out either keep their own notes on paper or other media and kind of reverse engineer the triggers, etc., resulting in the inevitable wiki many consult while playing instead. An in-game journal the player writes themselves would be a boon for hybrid games like From Software's, imo. It's certainly technically feasible as mod authors have been creating personal journals in which players can record their thoughts while playing single players for years.
SWTOR did a very interesting approach where they made NPC's that were particularly likeable based on the storyline and some zones worked better than others but the approach was to make areas for everyone and let them choose which area that they really want to grind in. Secret World is one of the few that I really liked as well, where the NPC's are your 'home zone' and its more about the mystery. It had a lot of well used mechanics but the story, at least before the writers got let go, created an amazing, interconnected zones that made 'dungeon' runs really team driven and that created a lot of unusual interaction because the best gear came from 'team' content. The interactions of these two methods seem best in practice. If you get a chance, I would love to hear what you think about different types of MMOs that you haven't mentioned yet.
I think SWTOR did it brilliantly. Normally the MMORG main stories are extremely boring to do, but with SWTOR you got main stories that were made from the type of character you were. So, a bounty hunter would have a completely different main story than a sith jedi which made replayability more interesting.
Yeah - honestly, the biggest weakness of the SWTOR main stories was that they were tied to WoW style MMO mechanics. I had a lot of fun, but I was pretty much always thinking "This would be so much better if it didn't have these mechanics".
The best MMO's are the ones without a huge story IMO. Look at games like Runescape, there's a ton of little stories in the quests that build the world you are in but there's no huge story that you get dragged through while leveling. To me it's a bit naff having some big story where you are the hero in a game where thousands of people are running around doing the same. When the gameplay is fun I don't think anyone misses it.
That's the best part of stories in MMOs or RPGs. You are free to ignore them, and in the best games, you can and will have lots of fun doing so.
Runescape has a massive 'main' story tho, kicked into gear by the death of Guthix. They also do fun little bottle quests, and youre free to ignore any quests and still access most content... so I guess RS is a good example of having it both ways!
@@artturihautanen Maybe RS3 does, I've not played it that much but I wouldn't say Old School does (I kinda forget RS3 exists tbh and just meant old school). I'd say RS has the best quests of any MMO i've played though, they are actually unique and fun to do unlike the usual MMO quests that always seem repetitive.
@@elobiretv I've actually not even tried Old School... Having made my character in 2004 I don't feel a specific connection to the 2007 state of the game. And since they've gone their own way with new content on OS anyway I don't even know if I'd like that version beyond nostalgic revisits to old stuff. I think the main game went the right way with upgrades to mechanics, QoL and especially the stories. I know I'll return to it again sometime like I have done every few years, and I'd quite like to check out OS too, probably as an Ironman! :)
just to add: needless to say the pay-to-win and battle pass stuff can kiss my
I'm 25 now but as a kid I was obsessed with finding good MMORPGS, I wanted something like Perfect World International. My attention span was really bad, I downloaded 5+ MMORPGS a day trying them all, I've played every MMORPG from 2007-2012, never stuck with one though. Nowadays it feels a lot harder to find MMORPGS like they were back then, I liked a lot of the MMOs I played, I just was so overwhelmed by free games and wanted to try them all. If you know of any MMORPGs still going today that are like older MMORPGs I'd love to know. It's so cool you worked on an MMO as well, whether you stayed with it or not.
will you be playing baldur’s gate 3, tim?
Definitely
So getting started in 1998 would be Ultima Online or Meridian 59. I never played Meridian and I didn't try UO until after I'd started playing Everquest in 2002. Even EQ was pretty basic but they were starting to add quests and things really broke out, quest wise, with World of Warcraft in 2004. Vanilla WoW was one of my favorite MMORPG's. It had learned from the lessons of UO and EQ and had a wonderful balance of directed quests and open world exploration. Still, even with classic servers, I can still play EQ but have moved on from WoW.
Star Wars Galaxies was another that I enjoyed at launch, mainly for the exploration and crafting, but it's dynamic spawning system (where more creatures would spawn in well travelled areas and fewer or even none in less travelled ones) meant that areas between cities, that had been teeming with herds and packs of animals at launch, became empty wastelands after a few months.
I think Morrowind has fantastic template for story which can be used in MMO
"There is "Big Bad". Characters regularly name-drop them, expanding lore. But you can face Big Bad whenever you'll feel ready"
What a grand and intoxicating innocence.
Only MMORPG where I got interested in the story right from the get-go was Age Of Conan, with the immediate goal being escaping slavery and then the starting island in general. The game used actual cutscenes and voiced dialog for the quest lines. Felt kind of like a console style RPG like KOTOR with the close third person perspective. Didn't feel like I was playing an MMO. Also loved the combat system balancing strategy with immersion: tab targeting (so wasn't a button masher) but at all times you had to pay attention to enemy movements and guard in different directions which kept you more engaged. The developer really tried to get you immersed and they are the only ones who succeeded in that regard, at least for me.
i just wanted to say i love these videos, thanks for making them.
If you haven't already, I would definitely check out the Guild Wars series. Both games are mechanically distinct from each other, but they do a lot of the things you mentioned here.
I'm most familiar with the second game, but I heavily recommend both.
In GW2, your early story missions are decided entirely by the background choices you made at character creation, and then there are choices made throughout the main story that change which NPCs show up and which missions you do.
Some of these carry over into the open world, as well. For example, if you choose to join the Order of Whispers faction, many NPCs throughout the world will have special info for you if you choose the right dialog option.
It's convergent, so inevitably your story will end at the same place as everyone else, and the expansions have been significantly more linear, but the game retains a strong emphasis on casual and solo play, while not neglecting group content like raids, pvp, and open-world map-wide event chains and world-bosses.
Every now and then, they still try to sprinkle in unique dialog for races and classes, especially because a lot of the expacs and story seasons focus on specific races in the world.
If you're at all interested in exploring mmo game design further, it's a must-play.
Wildstar remains one of my favorite MMOs of all time. Everything from the worldbuilding, to the unique classes and crafting, to the incredible score by Jeff Kurtenacker. Losing that game was absolutely brutal and really marked the end of MMOs for me for several years until I got into FFXIV. It feels like a lot of modern MMOs are focused on catering to the single-player experience by making the gameplay "efficient" through mechanics like Raid and Dungeon Finders - but by doing so they nearly eliminate the reason to ever socialize with other players. They swing the pendulum too far in the direction of a single-player game at which point...is it really an MMO?
Where really the balance is to focus on single-player storytelling that is *supported* by multiplayer social mechanics: requiring players to find and group up with each other to take down that terrible end-game world boss, talking in town squares to set up trades, etc. A lesson I hope upcoming MMOs like Ashes of Creation take into consideration.
RE: the cut scene thing. I'm a fairly regular player of the Elder Scrolls Online, and I think the big thing that drags down a lot of the cut scenes is that a lot of the time, it's for these bare bones stories that don't really have a lot of depth. With a single player RPG like Vampire: The Masquerade--Bloodlines or Deus Ex or whatever, the main story lasts for like 30-40 hours or whatever, but that's not really the case with ESO. Most ongoing quest lines will last 8-10 quests, which in reality is probably 8-10 hours of playtime for the average player. Sure, with the core game, a lot of these zone-specific stories will follow on from each other, but it's kind of in the same way a show like Stargate SG-1 or Buffy the Vampire Slayer would have an ongoing plot across the show or season, but every episode could be seen as a standalone thing for the most part.
Because of that, there isn't really as much investment in the current quest line. Yes, the cinematic cut scene will be epic, but it doesn't feel the same way it would in a single player RPG because it doesn't feel like the scene has been earned to the same extent. Plus, I think the other thing is that quite often people will want to do a certain zone's quest line because it gives them a good armour set for their current character, so they're automatically not as invested because they're really just ticking the boxes so they can get the piece of armour they want for their set that's a reward for finishing this quest or the one after.
Just recently found out you make videos, so I've been binging them! (Yes, I live under a rock. Probably owned by Vault-Tec.) But I'm really excited to watch this video, I absolutely love MMORPGs. WoW and ESO are my personal favorites.
Yes. I really wonder what he'd think of ESO. Lot of storytelling in it. It also does what he wants in an MMO, in some aspects. A short intro to the main story (wailing prison/similar intro dungeon. Then, it's smaller self-contained zone stories related to the main one. It ends with the big preparation in CH.
I think one thing a private server of CoH I play does, which all MMO's should adopt, is having missions level to your character and allowing the player to change the difficulty. I think you shouldn't be able to outlevel content and miss it, so if you skip around zones you can always come back and do early quests even if you're at levelcap. But you can change the level of enemies you want to encounter, and the amount. If you want easier missions where you just want to get it done, you can make enemies lower level and have less of them, or vice versa up the level and amount of enemies for more challenge. Some fights should be hard, but players should have the ability to tweak quest difficulty to how they want to play. I always loved how I could be levelcap with a group of 5 other people in a supergroup, and we do +2/x4, enemies 2 levels higher, 4x more enemies. So missions or quests that are easier can still be done in a fun way with a full group, or done solo. And if a mission is too hard you can lower difficulty, but you still don't outlevel the content and risk missing it. You can always come back when you have more tools, and it's always waiting there for you.
If everything levels to me, there is no real sense of progression. Being able to "outlevel" an area, is a classic sign of growth, and why it's such a bad game design move to have everything level to you perfectly. A compromise to this, is having "Level bands" for a region, so one region might be Levels 1-15, and after that, you've exhausted the region, and can totally rip through it if you come back.
Thanks for another good video Tim!
Personally I believe it helps to give the players the tools to tell their own stories within the game once the endgame is completed. And even for an MMO, you have to let the story end. Or at least shift the focus in expansions from having to fight another, bigger threat than the first one. Some games out there don't know when to stop the narrative power creep. I also believe there is a lot of untapped potential for tying narrative in MMOs to replayability. Especially when it comes to making development tools for dynamic storytelling and emergent narrative, especially now with the advent of machine learning and AI.
Solo instances is the biggest reason I dropped fallout 76 (before anyone asks, I didn't play it until well after launch, I know there were plenty of reasons to not play at launch lol)
One of the most popular MMORPGs at the moment, Final Fantasy XIV, has a very long, linear and mandatory storyline which gates every single piece of content in the game. And the people who love the game love it for the story. Which proves that there isn't a single right answer to MMO stories, because MMO players aren't in any way a homogenous group, they have different preferences just like players of any other genre.
Pretty much agreed, but what are core things that keep player to play and enjoy the game, even if all content is consumed. From my experience: it is the community, freedom, roleplaying elements, inventing new tactics or testing new character builds. For someone it can be collecting certain items, or can be game pvp that gets very competive, then it can keep up the interest. Few things in mmos general that are hard to balance: economy, time spending to get certain loot, loot statistics, power gap of maximed and more casual player (too big cap reward nolife grinders). Also any thought about providing endless progression (in a way that it wont make player overpowered)? Should there be forced (skippable) tutorial at the beginning? I think usually best would be not too much handhelding, but just directing player into direction/locations where he can learn more and progress, but keep it as optional.
The more sandboxy ones revolving around things like fighting over stuff with opposing factions make me wonder what the future of dynamic/evolving stories might look like, I noped out of Planetside quickly but loved that concept so much. I wonder if carefully (And continually) currating an AI could be what gets closest to something infinitely compelling, I've got a feeling we're gonna see some stuff previously thought to be forever overambitious. It's probably gonna be super rocky, there will be formulaic things, ones without cohesion, ones that just feel vapid and uninspired, gameplay aspects and writing etc. alike, but I think it's gonna be a matter of time before it all gets refined.
Things are certainly different when AI is involved, but as someone who makes music, I've always been obsessed with this idea that stuff is kinda just out there in the aether, and even if it's an AI that stumbles upon it, it can still have meaning to the observer. As someone who feels that way, through the plentiful issues, I mostly see a personally positive future where AI helps us explore more of that aether, even in ways we couldn't realistically do ourselves.
It helps that I don't financially depend on getting noticed in what is ALREADY a sea of other things trying to get noriced. I've been exploring that aether in all sorts of ways that are compelling to me in their own ways, ranging from deliberate to haphazard, often a continuous back-and-forth between the two... This is like sending a drone out there to see what it'll find, that blows my mind.
All that knowledge and experience means I can even direct it, and when it spits out a result, I can have it iterate. Again, this just absolutely blows my mind.
@4:16 Yes, but isn't it the case that RPGs have to be linear to some degree in the sense that there is predetermined ending and you have to meet certain conditions to get there?
I'd love to see Tim work on a looter shooter. Watching his channel has made me more aware the design similarities between action rpgs and mmos. Looter shooters fit this vin diagram nicely, but so far most examples have weak stories besides maybe Borderlands.
You basically described Destiny 1. Especially the flying mount part lol
How have you been able to invest yourself in multiple MMOs? I play one and I don't have it in me to get invested in another one because the time commitment to build just one good character is already such a massive time sink. I barely have additional time to play standard games.
That's the problem for me too, just getting to the level cap in 1 MMO takes way too much time. In most mmo's I've quit long before the end of the story.
I was REALLY into MMOs for a long time, from 1998 to about 2013 or so. Also, since I was making one from 2005 to 2011, I played them as much for research as for fun.
@@CainOnGames Ah ok that makes more sense when considering the research element. Thank you Tim for all these videos. I don't even work in game development but there's something so relaxing and heartwarming about listening to you speak. If I ever met you irl I'd want to give you a hug (fat chance of running into you in Ireland!). Love you man. :)
@@CainOnGames Before the troubles started in earnest, in other words?
The only MMO I have a great deal of experience with has been the Elder Scrolls Online. I've always found it way less intimidating when playing due to the make-up of the world. Each new expansion and addition to the world feels like a new game which I can engage with even if I've taken a break. There is never that fear that I've missed something and am going to have to spend hours catching up to engage with the content I came back for!
I also loved your idea for an in-game newspaper. That would be so awesome and help make the world feel so much more alive!
P.S. Loving the Videos!
I've player ESO a bit as well, but the business practices of the company and the quality of stories wasn't there for me. After all the MMOs I've tried I must say Guild Wars 2 is absolutely worth trying!
Well, concerning you never made an MMO(RPG) and you couldn't finish Wildstar/get your ideas into that game: Do you know that there's a small (private server) community out there trying to rebuild it? And afaik they struggle a lot (?) with reengineering the backend/code and other aspects of basic functionalities. I think they'd be happy just for an experienced opinion or two concerning this or that... 😉
Hi Tim, big fan of the stuff you've been putting out! I showed my friend your stuff and he's fallen in love just as much as I have with your storytelling and wit! He brought up to me a question that I don't think you've answered yet! What are your complete thoughts on the current state of Fallout or, rather, how Fallout has evolved since your work on the original?
You ever play The Secret World? That was 2012, so it was contemporary to your time on Wildstar, though near the end. I think story in MMOs is still not a totally solved problem, but that game really set a new bar when it came to multiplayer storytelling and general pacing.
But even though a decent chunk of people loved it, it highlighted an audience clash: Players who rush to the endgame, and players who take their time leveling up. It's hard to satisfy both, because the main story can only be put in one of those two places - and the ratio of player types is apparently becoming quite skewed these days.
It makes me think a lot of your ideas are probably outdated, now. I've yet to find an MMO that fully recaptures that old feeling.
I don't agree that backloading a linear story will make the players any more engaged with it. I think trying to tell anything like that at all conflicts with the MMO audiences' expectation of the game. The best structured, lengthy stories people remember from these games either take place outside of actual play, like books and set dressing, are told as group experiences, like your own MMO stories, or are enjoyable *in spite* of the type of game they're in, like FF14.
If you set up the standard sandbox and quest to quest play during the leveling process and the player keeps enjoying the game this way, that's the type of content that will continue to appeal to them. They're just gonna chase after the carrot you're pressured to hand at the end of it, ignoring the storyline presented, like the example with the key, or avoid it completely. That's what you've taught them to do up to that point.
The entire structure of the setting decays when you put in hundreds of players through it, you can't present it in a believable way while keeping the integrity of the genre. The best storylines in WoW and many of the games you've personally played in the past are the ones told through player to player interactions.
Where has THAT shirt been? My favorite so far!!
Have you ever played Suramar in Legion WoW? Its the best story I've played in WoW
Hey, Tim! The Mutants at the water shed need dirt naps. Makes my shadow grow. If you slice 'em rewards run to you. Info, too.
I could not get into MMO's. It wasn't because of the story or gameplay... it's because of the grind (and the usual monthly cost or battle pass schedule involved too). I am playing D4 now and it has the grind of an MMO but the gameplay ARPG. Still trying to figure out how I feel about it.
I do like your take about having the bulk of the story at the end. In open world games, I tend to explore and try to find stuff on my own and circle back to the main story later (or when I have to). And games like Ark has too much chaos for me and like no story (from what I can figure out). So having a goal at the end and figuring out your own way to get there sounds like the perfect marriage of the two.
PS. How many popsicle button downs do you have? I that a "Tim-ism" or a happy coincidence?
Thanks again :)
I own just 2 popsicle shirts. I am repeating them.
@@CainOnGames You should get a PO box for the channel. Might be fun for future content and stories.
love the LED shirt!
The worst stories in MMO's seem to be ones that treat you as "Chosen One" not taking into account the immediate immersion break when you see everyone else in the world with the same title. Seems easy to me to write MMO stories that prize the idea of groups making things happen in the world. You could have region spanning events, like an invasion (or the players being the invaders) into a region, and trying to repel/take over their territories.
Like the "Raids" of Pokemon GO, could have like a meter that needs to be filled up by the community to repel the invaders, and fills by taking down dungeons they're in, "Capture the flag", taking down mobs, defending towns, and of course successful raids that require tons of players to do.
Mr. Cain, I have a question regarding the inspiration from the Outer Worlds franchise. Did Robert Heinlein's book "The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress" serve as a piece that helped inspire the idea of lunar colonies and corrupt corporations as a main theme throughout the series?
You still can make an MMO. There's nothing stopping you. Do it if that's what you want to do!
Just keep the scope down and you can have it done within a few years or less. It won't be on the scale of WoW, but a fun and addictive MMO can be made.
Actually there's a lot of things stopping him, it's not that simple
How about players becoming boss or mid-boss fights themselves in instances? You conquer a dungeon and then your avatar becomes part of the instance until defeated in one-on-one combat by another player. Players could then compete for control over areas, and the longer they control an area the greater their fame or fortune grows.
I like environments where you can set your own goals athat are sort of long term with interlocking requirements that maybe have multiple solutions (these don't have to be huge but they might create a PC's track record that comes into play later). I don't think it strays from the formula of needing people to stick around, but if there's the keep on the mountain sort of thing, and you need to work your way up to that, your character's sort of progression is based on assailing that place, and if there are like several endgame sort of goals like that, alongside rumblings from powerful people (i.e. players and powerful NPCs who are in these locations making decisions) that affect the world's timers, events, with some sort of understanding that the players are exploring the environment and lining up these goals for themselves (or, of course, people start making how-to guides. I sort of wonder what MMOs are like before an authoritative FAQ is available).
I feel like creators settled into formulas. When I hear old stories about the weirdness of Everquest it makes me wonder if there are still other design possibilities. Thanks, this got me thinking
You should make an MMO.
Most of the MMO players I know would hate this. Getting them to do quests just to level up is like pulling teeth. I know so many who will do nothing but run group instanced (dungeons) content over and over or go to spots and just grind out XP killing the same mobs over and over. They don't care about story or lore and are only there for the loot rewards. Even when you force them to do quests they don't read the quest text or listen to voice overs. And you better have the quest location marked on the map so they can find it fast, go kill something quickly and come back to turn it in. I used to play MMOs but have given up and only play old single player RPGs any more. I would play Tim's MMO, it sounds fun.
Thanks for saying so,
I love your happy lil face
6:11 definitely talking about fallout 76 lmao
SWTOR did the same thing. Could be that too
I think the best expample of storytelling in mmorpg is on Swtor
I'm a big MMO fan and more than the story itself, my biggest issue with MMO story telling is how that story is told. I completely bounced off FFXIV since the gameplay of the story boiled down to 'go place, watch cutscene, repeat' with a bit of filler combat and the odd instance between. After the 20th cutscene I just couldn't care anymore.
On the other hand, I think my favourite bit of MMO story telling is the Defias story in vanilla WoW. As a human character, you start off dealing with bandits harassing people around Elwynn, then learn about their attempts to undermine Stormwind as you progress through Westfall, Deadmines, and Stockades, and then it culminates a hundred hours later with the Onyxia storyline. It's all told in a way that's very lowkey and players can be as invested as they want, but regardless of your investment, has the player go through a variety of content and characters, and gives context to one of the first major end-game encounters you'll have. It has a subtlety to the 'how' that feels so magnetic.
Good stuff!
I don't like that MMO's feel so database-driven. Enemies stand around in a certain location waiting for you to kill them. Once they are killed, they spawn back in a minute or two. I'd like to see a dynamic persistent world where everything and everyone has it's goal and the world can change around it. The MMO Wakfu does a little bit of it, depending on how many plants are planted, the region stat changes. (An example of this could be that if players harvest all the trees in an area, it becomes a desert, and players will have to manually replant some trees to get it back to forest type)
For example let there be an Enemy NPC sorcerer who roams around the world, constructing spawner locations and infects the world. When players clean them, it stays clean and maybe villagers will start to settle villages again.
Maybe a Blacksmith needs Iron to make weapons, so players bring the NPC iron so he can upgrade his shop and make better weapons for the players. But if the players don't protect the village, the blacksmith could be attacked and destroyed by the invading enemies.
Dynamic storylines can be created like this too... a son has been kidnapped by a roaming bandit horde. A villager tells you it's last location, and you have to hurry up there or they might have relocated again. Another person around could maybe tell you where they went next.
Another example of a dynamic storyline is that the villagers have sent out a few of their own into the mountains to kill the animals there, because they keep hassling the village, except they didn't return yet. Maybe the group is still working on it and you can join them and help them out. Or if you are too late... they're probably already dead.
Like this, these quests can be given to only some players and not all. Every players will have it's own adventure but groups will dynamically form for a common goal. And if a quest is done, it's no longer relevant for other players to complete. It's a bit weird in MMO's that there's this big monster that a group of players kill... but then the next group comes and kills it again.... nothing ever changes except the player's experience level.
Since MMO's are database-driven, I don't understand why they don't use their database entities as morphing entities instead of static ones. Let the enemies roam around the world and zones, don't levelgate areas. This way, there won't be a beginner zone that experienced players don't need to come back to. If a certain part of the world is left alone for too long by the players, the enemies will invade it and it'll be a more dangerous zone. And just spawn all new players in a random town in the world instead of a "noob-zone".
(Of course an optional separate tutorial island or introduction part could be done to introduce players to the game.)
Did you play WoW?
he's said he did
This video has made me decide to try an MMO for the first time. I think I would prefer one either with a lot of story content, or a freindly community that helps build their own fun organic stories, ideally both.
Do y'all in the comments have any recommendations. My PC is fairly weak, so I cant do super high end stuff either
Idk I've only played FFXIV and only the ARR main quest at that, so since It has a free trial just try that if you can run it. You can also play heavensward which is apparently much better but the Inbetween quests killed my enjoyment
LoTR online is completely free I think, so that too
I heard that Star Wars Galaxies has some fan made servers, and that game at least used to be incredible for player-to-player stories. As long as your PC or even laptop came out in the last 10 years you should be able to run it no problem.
For more scripted story I can also say I had a blast with the starting zone of Age of Conan, as a fun multi-hour long Conan rpg adventure. The rest of the game sadly doesn't keep to that level of quality, but if that had a stand alone release I think it would've done well.
Sadly it's been too long since I played any to suggest others myself but you might look into Final Fantasy 14, and Guild Wars 2, as I've heard those are great if you have the time and computer good enough to get to where the games really shine
Well, I've made other comments describing my feelings about Tibia and its quest and vibe in general, it's quite a rambling but may interest you since it has backlog of 25 years of adding content. But be warned that my experience also ended decade ago so some things surely have changed and I can't speak of quality of newer content but what was there when I left should still be there almost untouched
When it comes to "build their own fun organic stories", not sure if any MMO offers it but if you're interested in smaller scope there's a game called Space Station 13 that allows you and few dozens of players to work on space station. I can't even begin to describe how flexible this game is, amount of things players can do, jobs they can have and things that can go wrong is staggering. Each round lasts usually 1-2 hours, few of crew members are assigned antagonist roles with certain objectives to fulfill and rest is up to you, both antags and regular crew members can influence the game and no round is the same. I would recommend checking the reviews of SS13 at least for the entertainment sake
Please @CCP, bring this guy aboard as consultant for Eve Online... Like, PLEASE DO IT.
Sounds a lot like Guild Wars 2 quests.
I wonder what he'd think of Elder scrolls Online.
Are you at all familiar with Final Fantasy XIV? It's quite different to what you described regarding a sort of main end-game scenario in that the story in XIV is mandatory and follows you throughout the entire game, from level 1 to cap and then even more story in additional end-game patches that lead up to the next expansion. Despite that, the game is arguably the most popular MMO right now and it's story is one of its most highly praised things about it.
I recommend checking out Noclip's documentary on the game and its original failed 1.0 version if you haven't seen it, its an incredible turn-around. Coincidentally, the next expansion for the game is due to be announced tomorrow.
Ha, I just commented about FFXIV too. But... really? They're announcing the next expansion tomorrow!? I haven't played since I finished the Endwalker MSQ, so I'm kind of out of the loop :P
I think he very much described that he does NOT like mmos like XIV lol
A lot of what Tim describes sounds very similar to how storytelling is done in Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom.
That's not a mmo
Cool shirt
I'm guessing Final Fantasy 14 would be absolutely antithetical to your design/gameplay sensibilities, it breaks most/all of the things you listed as disliking in MMOs, and pretty much all the things you said MMO players hate are big selling points that FF14 players love (Cinematics, forced dungeons, forced events, linearity of zones etc).
But I also feel like it has to be the starting point of any discussion about MMO stories because it's so far ahead of any other MMO story that it practically eclipses the entire genre in itself, with FF11 being the sole exception.
When it comes to MMO Stories, FF14 is the WoW, or the Fornite, or the Dark Souls, or the Hollow Knight. It's the apex that defines the conversations and conventions in a very similar way to how Terry Pratchett talked about Tokein and Mt Fuji.
I like the idea, but "end game" in MMOs is usually undefined, as they need to evolve and add new levels and content. Is there a solution to this?
As the game adds new areas and ups the level limit, then more end game storyline is added as part of the new content. That's why I mentioned leaving some unsolved mysteries and loose ends in the story, to be followed up on later.
Why did you stop playing MMOs?
I’ve stopped playing multiplayer games altogether. I’ll do a video.
Among mmos that i played, only SWTOR had interesting story.
6:08 That's the worst thing a mmo can do. I hate when they force a solo content into a game that I'm playing for the main reason of being able to play with friends.
FFXIV: way too much story, but good
GW2: way too much story, but bad
SWtoR: way too much story, but good
WoW up to WotLK: perfect amount of story
New World: what story?
If players hate forced content... why, is FFXIV one of (I think THE most now?) popular MMORPG?
The issue I see saving the main story for the endgame is that the overwhelming majority of your players are never going to make it that far. Which means you're putting all these narrative resources towards telling a story that a tiny percentage of your players are ever going to experience.
Since I value player agency above all else in my games, your argument is true for anything that I add. The player is free to ignore whole areas of the game, or to avoid picking up companions, or to skip conversations and just run around killing things. But I still add those features.
I think all players will experience the background and zone stories, where a lot of NPC and lore information is provided. If they choose to skip the end story, that's no different than the majority of WoW players who skip raids. I am fine with it.
Hi Tim :P
please try FFXIV
I don't know if you're a big gamer at the moment, but even if it's just for the first expansion or two, I highly recommend giving it a try for the story alone.
You may hate it, you may like it, but the community is super lovely and I loved the story personally
Im not surprised you quit the mmo that put you and your mate in diffrent caves. Mmos live on the interaction between people. It is their strength. And just like a healthy person using a crutch it cripples them in the long run. Without people an MMO is garbage because the format itself isnt very good. Interaction between people can always be interesting though. But as games they are weak (crippled).
Played a lot of WoW back in the day. Had so much fun. Good memories. All of the memories are about playing arenas with lots of fun mates etc. Im sure blizzard spent a lot of money on writing, gameplay, mechanics and all of those were decent. Ive played hundreds of decent games (pillars, outer worlds, vandal hearts, knockout kings etc etc). None of them make a lasting impression like WoW did. Why? Because of the people.
Now how does WoW stack up against Fallout? Very poorly. Fallout has captured my imagination since i first played it. Years before i played WoW i played fallout 1 and fallout 2. And when i played WoW i still played Fallout. Then i played f3 and New Vegas and i was absolutely amazed by the world of Fallout.
One day i was bored of WoW and never played again. The world means nothing to me.
I still play f1-4 and nv and the world is the best thing in entertainment.
Arcanum i also played before WoW and still do. The world also has that special something. Sadly it never got an Fallout 3, NV and F4.
Linear story is exhausting, story should be broken down into pieces that you can go through in nonlinear fashion. Love baldurs gate
Nice shirt Tim
Final Fantasy XIV has, IMO, the best storytelling of any game, ever. Of course, that comes with two major disclaimers... a) you have to be into the whole JRPG style of game, and b) the cohesion and momentum of the narrative comes at the cost of ignoring (kind of... see paragraph 2) a lot of what makes an MMORPG what it is. In many ways FFXIV and its expansions are like single-player FF games bolted onto the framework of an MMO. And as time goes on, they've only increased the single player nature of the game. It's now almost possible to go through the entire thing and only be required to interact with other players at a handful of key moments. So in that sense FFXIV has made a lot of concessions to ensure the story is as strong as possible.
The thing is, though, that they really haven't ignored the MMO elements at all, they've just made them separate from the main narrative. There's a strong and vibrant community, and if you choose to dive into it, there are so, so many things to do with that community. It really is an amazing game.
Yeah that and Lord of the Rings Online are two of the best MMO's ever.
XIV’s story is absolutely NOT that good sorry man
Provactive question - what went wrong during Outer Worlds development? I hope you do not consider this as an insult. Im a big fan of your previous works, especially Arcanum and Bloodlines, but Outer Worlds is baaaad.
Hey Tim, just wanted ask if you think the idea of Fallout 76 could of been executed well enough to be accepted in the fallout community, or just that the idea of a MMO/multiplayer Fallout game is pretty much a failed premise?
Tim has said multiple times that he's not going to comment on other development studios' games.
I can, though. :) Personally, I think 76 very well could have been among the best Fallout games ever made...under vastly different circumstances than those in which it was developed. Were players alllowed to play through the base game content as a SP; actually meet the members of the factions struggling through the aftermath and struggle through it with them, all the factions being kept unique to the original vision of them; and allowed to romp through W. Va. in a MP co-op mode free of the Fallout theme park mood and atmosophere that's plastered over all that potential greatness.
As it is, I'm personally saddened beyond measure or words that it's truest potential likely will never be realized.
Yeah maybe if it wasn’t just a Fallout 4 dlc except worse
sandbox = fallout 4 :)
"Even BioWare, which built its success on a reputation for good stories and characters, slowly turned from a company that vocally valued its writers to one where we were... quietly resented, with a reliance on expensive narrative seen as the 'albatross' holding the company back." ~ David Gaider
Hopefully, this is a passing trend in the industry and we can get back to interacting with memorable, meaningful stories and characters soon. It's fascinated with AI-generated content, atm.
@@lrinfi quite frankly, the only bioware games i ever played were the first two baldur's gate games. and i loved them, especially the second game.
bought several copies cause the disks would be unreadable from too much use.
these games were definitely not sandbox titles. can't say anything about what came after that.
>sandbox
>WHERES MY SON???
Chosen One mmo stories are awful. The best MMOs have stories that appreciate the significance of players as individuals, allowing players to drive the story where possible. They're living worlds, not movies.
Hi Tim, big fan of the stuff you've been putting out! I showed my friend your stuff and he's fallen in love just as much as I have with your storytelling and wit! He brought up to me a question that I don't think you've answered yet! What are your complete thoughts on the current state of Fallout or, rather, how Fallout has evolved since your work on the original?