RC Car Extreme Aerodynamics
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- Опубліковано 3 лис 2021
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Attach an accelerometer to measure peak lateral g-force with and without aero.
A good idea for next time
@@Project-Air If you do not have an accelerometer you could also run car flat out and than corner it at full speed. If the cars corners tighter...you have more grip (provided you get the balance right between front and rear wing).
@@stephandelaat are slows the car down so it circles better because it reduces the full speed but that idea can be used with some modifications
Export the data into MoTeC
Thats what i was thinking.
remember, aerodynamic forces are generated almost primarily on the low-pressure side of the surface -- flow detachment on the bottom of your wings isn't just creating drag, it's also severely limiting the amount of downforce you're generating. less angle of attack on those wings might actually generate more downforce since they wouldn't be stalling. if you wanted to keep the aggressive angle of attack, you should upgrade to a multi-element setup to keep flow attachment.
Yea you have like 100kN of force per square meter maximum available, makes sense
Interesting, I never would have thought that the majority of the force is generated from the low pressure side. Now I think about it it makes sense too
Came here to say this, tried to warn him on the picture he posted a few weeks ago of the car.
yup, if a wing begins to deflect air, energy is being wasted. You want smooth laminar flow across as much of the surface of the wing as possible. This creates that desired pressure differential between the top and bottom surface of the wing.
@@davecurlett2227 not exactly. Part of the downforce comes from this air deflection. Also, you actually do want turbulent flow on the wing surface if you want your flow to stay attached at high angles of attack, since turbulent flow carries more energy and stays attached better. Most airplane wings transition from laminar to turbulence at only 10% chord length.
The good old trick of sticking some bits of yarn all over the car would probably reveal a lot of the possible aerodynamic issues.
Also, for a more consistent test, drive in a circle as fast as the car can go, and measure how fast the car can go around a circle with a certain radius. The benefit of this is that you can use quite simple physics to figure out if the aerodynamics is providing a meaningful downforce to assist the car - namely, if the centripetal acceleration in a corner is continuously higher than 1.0g, then you have conclusively demonstrated the presence of downforce.
Wouldn't really need to use any serious math beyond an overview shot with a drone at a set height and calculating the radius of the circle. Bring a broom, sweep the area free of debris and draw a set of uniform chalk circles using a string for an easy point of reference. The understeering would make a dramatic impact on the size of the circle and the differences would be visualized quite clearly.
Lmfao a guy copied your whole fucking comment, I can see it over your comment
wish UA-cam had the option to upload pic as a comment, I'd have replied to his comment with the ss of your comment and bully that fucker
@@urgesurfing Wow, you're right. Word. For. Word. Lol
His name is Dark, looks to be some anime pfp, and has a checkmark.
@@urgesurfing There are a lot of UA-cam bots going around these days doing exactly that. They take an existing comment and copy it as their own, it's a cheap way to make them look like "real" people because they're posting comments that are made by real people instead of cheap Markov chain generator or some shit like that.
Though usually those bots have pictures of scantily clad Russian ladies as their profile picture and their names are like "Click Me If Your Horni" or something, which makes it easy for us to see what's going on. This "Dark" channel might be related but evolved to be more stealthy like.
It's usually best to just report things like this, and then ignore it. Bullying people never results in anything good and if it's a bot, you're just spending your effort for nothing.
Suggestion: use a multi flaps wings like the current f1 cars instead of the shovel, you can get a lower profile front wing with an increased surface area
I can tell you right now, Im gonna rip off the fan in front of the smoke machine idea
Thief! 😛
Didn't you do it before? :D
(I love both your videos!) Just be aware that a fan puts out incredibly turbulent air flow... Oh no? That means it's like an inverted golfball, instead of the dimples on the ball creating turbulence in the boundary layer helping it stay attached, the turbulent flow over a smooth object helps the air stay attached (either way highly inaccurate for irl situations unless your use case is in front of a fan or you regularly race in a hurricane...)
So what can we do? Wind tunnels use fans, and their air flow is fine! Recirculating tunnels use methods to linearise the flow, (google is great) or simply... Use the Fan on 'suck mode' instead of blow. This brings its own challenges but in an enclosed environment it can be far more reliable
Good luck, love your work, I wish I had the time to do everything you two do!
Love ur vids 😎🇺🇸
Integza i need a 3d printer man come on i have been posting ideas :(
Lift does not increase with the area squared, but rather the speed squared. Area is just A^1
what he means is if you doulbe the diemensions the area gets squared
He said that bit wrong, but what he said immediately following that is correct
Velocity is a bit different than speed but yeah
@@spookz2837 in this context, its not, velocity here is the free stream velocity component that is normal to the chord, by definition direction doesnt change, therefore "speed" is not incorrect
You definitely should test with the kit body. Aero makes a big difference, at least in 10th scale racing. We notice the handling difference by just changing the body and leaving the wings the same!
That F1 edit at the end was phenomenal!
Great project, maybe on a smoother track, like inside a sport arena, you could experiment more with the ground-effect.
This is what I've been thinking since finishing my experiments! Great suggestion. Maybe a ground effect fan car?
@@Project-Air That sounds realy interesting.
@@Project-Air Like the Brabham BT46 F1 car? That would be cool
I second the fan car idea! And getting an indoor roller rink or something haha
@@Project-Air if you go the fan car route, I can offer some info as to what's worked best for me so far. When I get a new motor setup I'll be going for round 3 looking to drop another .5s off my 0-60 time.
ua-cam.com/video/32zCMaGEY8I/v-deo.html
Very interesting stuff. Having had a tiny role in some F1 aero (I once mechanically designed a blade antenna that went on the 2002 Williams) I know how much effort the teams put into the TINIEST details to gain miniscule improvements. I was impressed with William's input and care and totally shocked by Jaguars lack of it (also did their antenna).
Eyo u worked in the V10 era! Thats mental. Did u worked in 04 w williams too?
So how was it working with them and how many years did you work with them but man i would have been jumping around if i got that offer
God, working at motorsport would be my dream job! I'm working at a Baja SAE team right now, hopefully I'll get there
This man.
This man right here has worked a job that many will only ever dream of
What a achievement! I am an aerospace engineering student, wishing to be like you. Ah hopefully.
This video really helped me on my Speedrun project! My car kept flipping up at the front at high speed, saw this video and made a front spoiler and it worked!!
Thank you 🙏🏾
Those bumps were killing that thing! I will be attempting something similar to this thank you for the info and tips! Also, that editing with the old engine sound at 9:22 was awesome!
A selfmade wind tunnel would be An interesting project in itself and a nice tool in the development of future builds.
I second this idea!
There's a reason why wind tunnels are worth a lot of engineering times, you can "design" one and homebuild it but there's a lot to it. There are different tunnels for different flow regimes, different sizes and different applications.
The Wright brothers approve this post.
This would be a good place to start.
ua-cam.com/video/Sx5BQjKvElk/v-deo.html
I made one using straws and a fan in the rear so laminar flow isn’t disturbed. I used some dry ice in warm water as smoke and a small air foil. It was pretty incredible
Some suggestions:
Testing each change individually, and periodically re-testing the base no aero setup, and documenting how each change affected the car positively/negatively. I know it's a lot of work, but would be fun to watch I think, as we could follow the progress in detail with you.
I think this could be an interesting ongoing project to follow over time, with further experimentation as time goes on, maybe one day have active aero for a more varied track.
Comparing the stock aero from the factory could also be something interesting to see.
As for suggestions, I would go with softening the rear shock absorbers a bit, maybe with a lighter oil, as it looks like the car is getting thrown around from those big bumps without absorbing them.
3D printing aero parts might also be a way to have lighter parts that are also precise.
Anyway, definitely please continue this project. =)
The onboard camera footage was ace, can really see how any small bump in the road really messes those things up
The crash was like an how an actual F1 car would crash but instead it would break into pieces COOL!!! Love your work man.
Yeah, this is really cool, but definitively needed to be more scientific. Even without the wings, the car could go full speed through the corner. At that point, the only thing the wings can do is slow the car down with drag. You need to find a corner that the bare-body version can't get around without slowing down, and then see if the wings improve it. Pointing the camera at the suspensions and seeing it pushed down would also be a really good indicator
he is rc youtubes what do you expect xD jk
I'd reccomend a better testing track
Its hard to control the car at those speeds
He wanna have fun not build a fucking racecar
@@shukriwafiq5220 I fail to see the relevance. Are you proposing you can't have fun doing science?
Hope you enjoyed this month's video! Let me know what you want to see me build next!
Correction to the lift calculations -the full lift formula is L = Cl * A * .5 * r * V^2
More info here www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/airplane/lifteq.html
For ground effect to work your suspension needs to be perfect as well as the surface you drive on.
That fan and smoke machine was cool, you should build a scale-sized venturi effect recirculating wind tunnel! That would be a cool project
Thanks for the right formula but I don’t think anyone even noticed 😂 like i would be fooled even if u said a=bxc
Thank you! That matters a lot to those of us who live it. Remember people, we’re just fish where our water is simply very thin/rare. Flow is everywhere, always.
Hi! Nice video! How about u put a upside down drone on the car. The fan/propeller are pushing the air up giving massive down Force. I would really like to see something like that! Tq.
Always enjoy seeing what you've come up with.
Dude! Nice. Probably the most interesting RC car content I've ever seen. Ive come to realize that so much can be done at this scale - affordably . Very nice work on the video and the car!
Great video James! I'm not a car guy but this was really interesting. That smoke machine + EDF worked really well to visualize the airflow!
Thank you very much!
Great video as always. I’m a little surprised you didn’t test the car with the stock bodywork installed to see if the massive wings were an improvement over the scale ones.
Awesome video, aerodynamic is really an essencial key to achieve success! Cool Casio W-86!!
I know this isn't the aerodynamics that is being used in F1 today, but it does leave you impressed about how it began and the what the basics of downforce and aerodynamics are.
I used to race RC cars nearly 20 years ago - indoor 1/12th on a reasonably large carpet track with a decent straight. I remember playing around with different body shells and rear wing combinations and there were deffinately differences to be felt - less so with shells, but a decent rear wing with end fences definately made them more stable down the long straight. That could then be balanced with better front end grip allowing good tracking down the straights, with pointy stearing response for the tight corners. Not talking huge differences here, but when you are used to running the same car on the same circuit (we did change track layouts once a month) with controlled indoor conditions, then you do start to notice the small setup changes which you can make and the small differences adding a big wing with fences can make.
Fun fact, the track used to rubber in over the course of the month - when the carpet was hoovered at track change time, the grip the first week of the new setup was awful. We didn't use tyre addatives, just the natural rubbering in of the foam tyres on the carpet. 'Marbles' (dust and general crap) off line was a thing too!
Compession of suspension components to a calibrated set point would give down force value and a split front/back , but would need a smooth running surface.
Awesome vid btw 👍👍👍
You also needed the car with the stock bodywork and underside stuff to see how it compares. It could be that with the speeds and weights involved, the body they have designed already does an OK job. Probably easier to add to that than start from scratch.
Definitely interested to see more !! Thank you it was great
maybe raise the spoiler and remove the skirts
in f1 they stopped the skirts because of increases in crashes
also, the big size with the large angles of the aero could make handling harder
also something that might help is loosening rear anti roll bars if you have any
and/or softening rear suspension dont over do it on the roll bars or suspension though
there could be too much roll and all the grip goes to 1 tire
If it's a square relationship doesn't double wing equal quadruple lift/downforce?
L = 0.5*rho*S*C_L*V² where S is the wing surface, so his statement is completely wrong...
Double the surface, double the lift force.
@@aGabay yup
No clue what he was on about
The first part he said was wrong, lift is instead directly proportional to the area. The second part about doubling the length doubling the lift was correct though
Makes more sense ;)
This video made me subscribed, honestly I was pretty impressed with the quality of this video
The quality of your videos is astronomical. You deserve at least a million subs!
If you want to learn anything from these experiments, you should be more methodical and try to isolate one factor each time, running the same test (or as similar as possible). For example, you should have tested the smaller wing at that same corner, without changing the rake angle and adding the splitter-diffuser floor.
give the guy some credit i think he knows that and is working up to it.. maybe watch all the way through.. judge when in possession of all the facts my friend.
@@griptopia I watched all the way through, and some of his other videos - he can't learn anything like that.
He's clearly learning so I don't agree .. controlling your test conditions will help for sure but I'm sure he's aware :)
@@griptopia By his reactions, he's not aware of it.
@@griptopia you cant really learn anything by changing more than one variable for each run as you wont know whats making the difference
Would love to see some active flow control applied to an RC car -- think: control surfaces and active feedback to vary grip based on commanded turn rate
Amazing work, keep going !
Another great one as usual thank you so much for sharing
DOWNFORCE!
I have a Lotus Elise Body on my 1:10 and when I remove the rear wing it becomes practically undriveable. Top speed is about a third higher than with the wing on. Also aerodynamic flow over the entire thing is super important too, not just the downforce of the wing.
Always a great video. Love the knowledge and experiments!
Wawwww, Just discovered this youtube channel. Keep up the good work!!!!!
Given what you know about airplanes, why are you not using the "wings" in a more traditional sense? As in, as you explained in the beginning of this video, using the wing, just upside down. Consider building an airplane that wants to climb more and more the faster you get...you'd never build an airplane with that angle of attack. I personally would love to see a video where you try to use the aerodynamics of a wing, even if protrudes beyond the base chassis, to prove that wings can push the chassis down...maybe have a scale on the front axis to try to measure?
also, why not just put one upsode down RC wing on top in the middle? way easier to experiment with different sizes, easy to mount and less weight.
I think you misunderstand "drag" and "downforce".
Of course I'm not an expert, but I'm somewhat confident that just like at an airplane, where most force gets generated at the *top* side of the wing, the majority of the downforce of your car gets generated at the *bottom* of the car's wing.
That means, if you have layer separation (=stall) at the bottom side of your wing, then this does not just increase drag, it also drastically decreases the downforce.
I was looking for this commment
Aerodynamics on rc cars is something I never thought about, very cool
Your understeer was a combination of more downforce from that wing and also the drag high up at the rear. The rear wing drag is like a lever acting on the rear wheels as a pivot. Those wings are only generating downforce by increasing pressure on the top surface. You should print a proper profile to get lower pressure on the bottom rather than just separating as you discovered
i think the rear diffuser was giving the rear tires a lot of grip and the rear wing was exceeding the needed rear downforce so i think he should reduce the angle of the rear wing to give enough downforce to the front of the car to prevent understeer
It's very interesting to see how you are in front of the same problem than full scale. The ground effect could only work on flat surface, loosing the ground effect is so dangerous that it can't really be a good option except on perfect track.
But using your smoking development aero system, you probably could test the actual F1 looking aerokit on your model. I'm impatient seeing it 😃
Ah man well-done with that real sound! Awesome and unexpected 😂😂👍❤
That car looks smooth and cool
The wing angle of attack should be in the 7° to 13° range to avoid flow separation on the back. To increase down force you can split one big wing into several smaller ones with progressively higher angle of attack, so that each is ~7° steeper than the one before it, and shallower than the one after it. Aerofoil cross section matters.
That rear wing isn’t a wing, it’s a spoiler. They work differently biggest confusion people make about car aero. The front wing is also pitched wrong. It’s making more drag than downforce.
What is it that makes it a spoiler as opposed to a wing, but the front surface is still a wing and not a spoiler? Is the original rear surface on the car (1:06) a wing or a spoiler? What about on an F1 car? What about a Formula Student rear wing which is similarly optimised for low speed downforce?
@@Leo99929 In this case the profile and how the downforce is generated. A race car wing actually generates most of its downforce from the underside via suction just like the diffuser, since these have no profile and the air is basically just hitting them rather than creating low pressure under the surface it’s a spoiler.
That's a really cool experiment, I'd love to try this out myself someday! You could also try implementing a tail-fan like the Gordon Murray T50. Also, lift increases with the square of velocity and not planform area [L = Cl * A * .5 * r * V^2].
He said square but then immediately said when you double the area you double the force lol. I think he just didn't mean to say square of the area
I'm making some aerodynamic improvements on my rc f1 project car and this video really helped me!
Project Air: makes something that will definitely not fly
I'd be interested in seeing how the aerodynamics of the wings would affect the top speed.
I think in this case, it would actually reduce the top speed 😅
@@ManuelOrtizification I agree. It would increase the drag and slow the car down.
James, a very interesting video. This type of aero is like a law of diminishing returns but seeing as how your baseline was the bare chassis with no aero then the initial gains are going to be massive, I can tell you that an 1/8 scale IC car with no body work is very unsettled, put even an average body like a Lancia LC2 an there is a huge initial difference, then the gains are smaller and much harder to find.
At one point later in the video where you had understeer, you had the car pivoting about the back axle and actually lifting the front end. I done some wind tunnel testing with Ford on their first WRC Focus in the Cologne wind tunnel and this rotating around the axles is very noticeable. Ease off on the rear down force and some to the front and away you go.
Don't listen to the doubters. Most of them have never done anything useful.
PLEASE MAKE MORE THIS KIND OF VIDEOS I REALLY LOVE IT 😍
Love this video! I used to be into RC and spent more time repairing them than I did driving them, good times. Subbed
Also you have to consider the drag force caused by big spoilers increasing the frontal surface area... There is a relationship between drag and downforce...
I have always wondered about active Aero. Wings flatten out in a straight line, sensors pitch them up for more downforce in turns and turn them right up for braking. Also like to see the old fan car design that sucked the vehicle onto the road with engine power. They built one like this but it was so quick they banned it after one race. Always wish they Built a Demo car with all the tech like active aero, fans, turbos etc and see how much faster it could go round a track than the " legal" cars. I bet it would be a LOT faster.
Try the red bull car in the gran turismo games, its got what you are looking for. And it still is far from a "clean sheet" unregulated design, more like what it could look like if the regulations were still 1975-1980-ish.
I hear Ron Dennis encouraged the design to be banned in the US... probably because it was about to cause all race cars to adopt the "door-stop" shape, as well as the danger inherent in any loss of suction while cornering.
Sweet RC body modifications! and love the F1 sounds 😂
I'd love to see more like this
Huge issue with ground effect is that the scale of the RC car compared to the scale of the smoothness of the road is a much bigger issue than with a full-sized car, and they work HARD to make F1 tracks grippy enough for turning but smooth enough to not vibrate the hell out of the vehicles.
Active aero could have potential but you'd need a fast computer on board to control it accurately.
Would be cool if you did some hard engineering as opposed to just tinkering. Interesting video regardless!
My thoughts too.
love the old Williams livery.
RIP Sir Frank Williams
More like this please 👏🏻👍🏻
Companies spend millions in researching this.
I'd suggest you mimic them and see why they've chosen what they have.
Having a snow-plow in the front and back, won't do anything meaningful.
I love this video. Well done 🎉
Would definitely love to see more videos on this!
just discovered your channel. dope stuff. SUBSCRIBED
fun time 9:21 , good work, nice acceleration timing. "from Brazil
wowww i want another video like this trying some of f1 similar technologies 🏎
thanks for this one actually a really cool video
You’re an excellent scientist / engineer. You tried hard to develop a quantifiable test and continued to evaluate your hypothesis. You also acknowledged that correlation did not guarantee causation.
With the f1 sound it was epic!
Good job kid, (I'm old, probably 3x or 4x your age). I hope my 10 year old kid with get interested with engineering and physics stuff like this. Subscribed!
Great to see you are applying Haas’s wind tunnel testing
This video was awesome
Wonderful and informative vid
Would be super interested in more videos on experiments with ground effect RC cars! And I suggest doing some constant steering test to objectively compare maximum cornering speed on equal cornering radius. Ideally clean road, and loop around a constant radius circle to remove other variables like gravel, weight shifting, etc. :)
Great video, very smart young lad!
Great video!
Super interesting video I will definitely continue to watch this channel. 👍
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this is really great
i need to see more small scale car aero stuff its super interesting
9:22 love the V10 F1 sound
Lovely vw up btw👌
Just some tips: Gurney flaps are very useful (basically flexing the very end of the wing more drastically, producing more downforce with less drag). Placing skirts on the side of the floor (obviously not made of a thick material) would also inprove ground effect. You can also wider the front wing, because turned tires can disturb air flow. This solution might also work: placing the rear wing on a shark fin by its upper side as the rear wing's lower side produces the more downforce, and as the shark fin ends in the rear wing, it doesn't create such a big vortex.
That box on the top will be creating such a lot of drag, it’s like a pocket for the air to suck into
That bump on the turn is killing me
I wish I had seen this sooner or knew you were working on it. Because believe it or not slot cars are still a thing and are great for aero experiments. They also have winged cars that are insanely fast and use a very simple form of active aero.
This is a fantastic video, well done and great work on the car. I hope some car manufactures or racing teams see this video, I reckon you would make a good apprentice for Adrian Newey or Gordon Murray.
Dude this is awesome. I actually looked at this for my science fair project.
the V10 sound it's awesome
Love that the two images of an F1 car with aero were both Ayrton Senna!
It's incredible! Just found out your channel and I really enjoy it! Keep going, new subscriber.
I want to se more! And you actually did well because you gained one sec in only one corner: it’s quite impressive.
I would like to see you nail this! 👍
Amazing video
Use a split front scoop to allow more air to pass over the front center of the car pushing down the rear.
I did similar experiments with a Traxxas Jato 3.3. Full front scoop overheated the engine due to air deflection as I ran gas.
With split scoop there was still a considerable difference in stearing ability against a stock Jato. Both had upgraded Road Rage tires and not the garbage stock Anacondas.
Keep up the good work
You earned a subscriber 💛
This is so interesting!
Ground effect car sounds interesting!