Ending the Debate
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- Опубліковано 15 кві 2024
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#Overwatch - Ігри
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They need to bring back 6v6 the game feels terrible now almost every match in ranked feels like a throw match and this match maker needs to be fixed its really terrible. Almost every game i get a dps main on my team that gets 3-5elims all game this is not good match making. 99% of the time i can watch any pro streamer and predict the games they are gonna lose and the games they are gonna win before the match even starts and i been doing this for yrs now even winning $500 from someone because i bet them that the match maker is trash and forces wins and loses. great video Samito keep it up man its rediculous people want 5v5 to stay.
im pretty sure microsoft might try to force them to go back to what they had in ow1 bc they made more money and thats what they want so ig just wait guys are they will open they eyes soon like how long is bliz gonna pull the wool over ur eyes to realize they will do it again look at classis wow its better than retail and has more players . also why tf did they get rid of group finder shit was good tbh
Please keep talking Sam. All these kids have no idea what they are talking about. Us OGS KNOW WTF IS GOING ON
I think you need to yell more in your videos. It's so entertaining. haha
Poor SVB.
Bro is speaking factual
The only logical move at this point is 4v4. Can’t have a bad tank experience if there’s no tank experience
Or low-key 1 tank 2 dps 1 sustain squads lol
Make the game 3 teams battling each other last team standing haha
I know they sorta have 4v4 in arcade but it's so bad you can't see what your teammates picked and you can't change out the whole match so if your teamnates just happened to pick 3 healers and a DPS and the other team is 4 tanks good luck
Thats sadly what will happen. Either we are going back to 6v6 or they just remove the tank role.
They didnt even do the work to adjust all the heroes for 5v5 before releasing the game. They rushed it out, ripped out a tank to make it look like they did something, then canceled what they had actually been working on the whole time. NOBODY asked for 5v5.
Double tank, double friendships 🤝
Facts
Never have truer words been spoken
I miss my other big buddy :(
a buddy to experience the pain with u!
solo q'ing tank tho your other tank was ALWAYS toxic as shit
Game of the year;6v6
Worst reviewed game on steam;5v5
Discussion ended
@@FGPlus hero design issue?¿ cough cough sigma
@@FGPlus Double shield became a problem when they decided to abandon for almost 3 years to work on OW2. Orisa rework could have happened in OW 1 if the game wasn't abandoned. They could have easily made changes at the time and put an end to the problem, but they preferred to let the game die and blame the lack of balance they caused on the fact that it was a 6v6 problem and not because they were they were putting out 1 balance patch every 2-3 months if we were lucky
@@FGPlus double shield would have ended on the day the orisa rework happened, aka when overwatch 2 released. And that change could have been made in the 18 months of zero content updates
@@FGPlus doesnt exist without orisa
well I think there's a lot more to the discussion, but you're not wrong
I stg samito the only content creator with a top down view of the whole 6v6 5v5 debate, everyone else is just arguing with pieces of the puzzle
#bringback6v6
What pisses me off is that these content creators literally lie out their mouth slandering 6v6. Like 5v5 if you want but don’t sit here and lie to my face saying “if your two tanks didnt synergies you auto lose.” In 5v5 the tank is the deciding factor on which team loses or not and even when the tank is doing everything right you never have carry potential. You cannot convince me that 5v5 is sustainable for the game no matter how much you shake it up.
those content creators are just blizzard puppets, knowing well that 6v6 was by far the superior format. All of them say that 5v5 is better and try to gaslight their viewers
Very true. The game becomes, “which tank can be counted the most” and is sucks so much. Like it’s a guaranteed win if the opposing team doesn’t swap comps to counter the your comp
Yep, literally do you guys notice that 6v6 EVERY GAME was winnable? NOW in 5v5 literally half of your games are auto lost, and most are because of your tank. And theres no way to come back at all. Its so much worse man
You ain't wrong. I think rein is the best example. He was built around having the second tank, he was able to dmg but he was kinda the main target while the other tank was able to fight, but with only having 1 tank, your still the target, getting shot at by all 5 people, but now you don't have ur back up and it's either u damage or shield. I'm a rein main and I can admit, 6v6 was getting boring. But I'm gonna be honest, most of the tanks struggle cuz they weren't meant to be the single tank. I can't complain about the other roles, maybe support but honestly it's just the norm at this point so I can't complain. We need a overhaul
Seriously. Like Sam said, it Seriously shows that these people haven't played 6v6 in forever because half the shit they say is objectively incorrect.
As a casual player of overwatch at that time, we did not see an unkillable tank. in fact double shield was hardly ever an issue except for on specific maps. the problem for the average player was… basically non existent. we didn’t deal with goats, we didn’t deal with queue times. we didn’t deal with unkillable tanks, as a tank player i was very killable. no double shields. supports were a problem for us, bap was still strong for the average player. brig was still insanely strong if someone knew the fundamentals, which is all you really needed. it was basically just remembering to put your shield up. after he nerfs, she did lose relevancy for us tho. moth mercy meta is oppressive at our ranks and in qp. moira healing and being hard to kill. mercy pocketing dps. all of that was the problem.
EXACTLY. But of course content creators wanna keep gaslighting us
This. The supports were absolutely the problem. Tanks were killable and I would say that the tank busters they overbuffed to countered GOATS were more of a problem outside of GM and top 500.
It was an awful time because you had to deal with 30%/40% lifesteal reaper and aoe freeze Mei that popped her ult so often.
The supports being overtuned just made tanky DPS so annoying to deal with to the extent where you only had 2 tanks or none unless you had an orisa.
I just had a moment of clarity right now that you brought that up, yes, the only characters I simply hated to see every time were moira, brig, bap and sometimes hog, but it exception, I only played genji and still hated these significantly even more than zarya, cree or pharah, and I mostly played arcade and ffa
Honestly going f2p making queue times better is so understated. Every multiplayer game that goes f2p has an insane increase in the playerbase & decrease in queue times. OW has been the ONLY game where I don't see people talk about going f2p at all. It's very sad.
F2P cause who was gonna buy the same game twice
Mondern day triple aaaf2p game where you can't actually unlock the content/ cosmetics without paying. Even fortnite gives f2p actual items. Blizzard gives you 2 sprays and a skin if you play for weeks. If overwatch was 1 f2p you'd unironically unlock more stuff because lootboxes acftually gave you things once in a while.
man i fucking love sam and his passion for the game. all he wants and i think everyone else if for goty overwatch to come back, i dont get whats so hard to understand about it. he's a fucking real one and ever community needs someone like him in it
He is a great dude
He’s the only one keeping me remotely involved with overwatch. Everyone of the past is gone. He’s literally the last one. Calvin, seagull, shadow burn, shader 2k, I can go on. Sam is the only one carrying the echos of goty ow. And everyone else is trying to shut him down. What’s ironic he’s literally the best of them all. More accolades than all of these goobers combined. But their egos won’t let them just shut tf up and listen to the last remaining goat of this franchise. Seagull tried once to fix ow. And they didn’t listen to him. And he was arguably the founding father of the community.
It’s funny because I don’t really like samito as a content creator his gameplay vids never spoke to me and I always just saw him as the toxic angry dude. I really like him now because he seems to be the only big 6v6 creator
The only people advocating for 5v5 are the ones who already give blizzard the benefit of the doubt whenever something new comes up. They are just Overwatch hype beasts. It’s in their self interest to shill for the current format. In their minds it’s “blizzard made the call and now we have to defend it, because the alternative is bashing it and creating more negative feeling towards the game.”
Yup haven't really seen anyone who doesn't main overwatch say ow2 is better than ow1
Exactly, which ironically means; if 6v6 came back they would be championing that too! Because it was a decision Blizzard made.
@@cl4709 yup. They won’t lose. But the community will know.
no its not just them its also typically dps because they only gained easier plays which made them feel more fun/enjoyable so they think 5v5 is better
Sam is 100% right and I didnt even play OW1 to see the problem here. The rotation for double shields had sigma doing 2 abilities compared to orisa’s 1. To say Sigma isn’t the glaring issue here is just trolling
Orisa could ALSO fortify, so she was also cycling 2 abilities
Nah how tf is this a 7 day old comment?!?
@@camerorgb6525 what the hell
@@Swagonite No tank needs 2 mitigation abilities
Orisa did have 2 problem abilities too, sam just kinda went Over it BC he was talking sig
LMAO that mobile game ad
I freaking lost it!! Haha
@@JimboTMX Dude I thought the ad was popping up for me until I saw a tiny disgusted Samito in the bottom hahahaha
this is why UA-cam is unusable with adblock
Lmao. I have UA-cam premium so I had no clue it was like this now.
Samito's reaction was perfect!!! Lmao! I came here just for these comments!
wake up babe, new Samito video
Gee I wonder what the topic is...
@@annylieseseraph6149the only one I care about. …… 6v6 superiority
@@annylieseseraph6149the same one until people wake up and change things
Also, tank was only fun to me as a dps player for the synergies, take turns holding space, protecting ur sups or pushing for a finish, way more fun then doing everything urself
The funny part is that if we keep 5v5 the only way to fix it will be removing all weaknesses from tanks and then they will actually be unkillable
And 2 main weaknesses are vertical movement and CC. The moment this abomination of a dev team will release a flying orisa - cc immune monkey, this game is done.
@@olegdusov4273to be fair tho, flying orisa would be funny 😂
But seriously, I feel the best way to fix 5v5 is to not completely remove weaknesses, but to mitigate them, leave some room to counter the counterplays. Example for another video he reacts to says to have rams block negate cc to deal with his cc weakness, but can’t move. What if instead if no movement, we add a secondary cooldown to block. What it would do is act like a perry, where for the first let’s say second or half second of block your immune to cc, enough to block a well timed sleep dart, but not enough for complete immunity. After that sec-half sec the secondary ability will be on cooldown for let’s say 5-10 sec (obviously numbers can change ofc). Not only does this give an option for counterplay, but also adds a layer of mind games and cooldown tracking. If more changes like that are made to the necessary hero’s, then it would be a lot better.
@@quiteslayer4067 ok how do you mitigate them? By adding a second tank. If you create an ability for the tanks to mitigate their weaknesses not only you will make them play similarly and therefore making them lose their uniqueness, but, that also will make the solo tank basically have almost no weaknesses.
@@JumpsOw I literally just gave u an example of how a tank could mitigate its weaknesses without eliminating them entirely.
The heroes in OW were designed on a 6v6 basis. To change the format of the game is to change the function of the heroes. If you want a 5v5, every hero needs to be heavily readjusted to fit that format.
Exactly but people still complain about hero changes
I understand the love for 6v6 but dknt criticize them for changing heros to fit a new format thats how it works
not just that game mechanics, game modes, certain dps heroes that are explicitly “tank unfriendly”, same for supp, maps, objectives, objective mechanics. literally everything
This longer than Toy Story wtf?????
Better off watching Toy Story tbh. At least it is fun to watch and listen to instead of endless ranting in a reaction video.
@@Jade_Callistotbh it would be more positive if the overwatch communities takes on 5v5 weren't so garbage, it's pretty obvious how 5v5 won't work for tanks, at least in a remotely fun way.
@@arbalest327I think spilo has good takes
@@Jade_Callistodid you watch the full vid yet?
Did he make any bad points? Was the vid boring? Was the vid lacking in substance for and against both systems?
Or are you just making a funny comment?
@@yussufkhalil5618I love his coaching but his takes make me angry tbh. He just straight up wants a different game lol
There's no need for a 'middle ground'. This ish didn't work. Role passives are dumb, just reset it all to the last ow1 patch, add the new heroes in and just balance from there.
We are gunna end up with the worst of all worlds if we go with some middle ground.
I stopped playing Overwatch 2 with two friends because of 5v5. Normally one of us would queue up for tank and the other two to dps. Our last game before i quit the game for good, my friends and we were literally asking each other, "So who wants to suffer on tank?" And before anyone says "It's only in the higher ranks." Me and my friends are GOLD! Gold ranks, where anyone could go any hero or any role, they do not want to play tank. If Golds can acknowledge that tank sucks because of 5v5 why are so many people so adamant that 5v5 is better when the balance problems literally require a full rework for most of the tanks, i.e. the Wrecking Ball rework...
plain facts lol. whenever I queue with friends I'm pretty muched forced on tank since no one else can play it and that's the only way we can win. the experience is just brainrot dogshit that I'd rather lose 10 in a row on dps before I ever play tank
My duo doesn't play OW anymore. We had fun double queuing tank. Now he plays Valorant and loses braincells on that. But losing braincells on Valorant is clearly better than losing sanity on OW.
Playing tank is a job. It’s such a downtrodden minority that they cut the number needed in half instead of improving the role to get more. And it still has the fastest queues.
Used to play OW1 with the boys quite a lot, can’t get anyone to play now lol. Can’t say I blame em cause I’m just too sucked in to get out but it’s a sad sight to see.
@@Barrnicklefunny enough, all my boys gave up overwatch cuz it just pisses us off so much. the girls are still playing cuz idk no testosterone so not as much raging? i get over it pretty easy now but fuck man, if ur going thru shit overwatch is awful to play cuz i would just get so mad at playing tank it would tilt me damn near immediately. and it didn’t matter how long of a break i took
Ending the debate... until another 17 6v6 videos come out this month :D
U wish we would stop talking about it to let it off the hook 😁
@@fullnelson4986too bad the rest of the player base is huffing the 5v5 copium that is supplied by the delusional devs and content creators
@arbalest327 more ppl will wake up and realize 5v5 is ruining the game and speak up and the devs will be forced to revert because the evidence of 6v6 being better is evident. It's only a matter of time.
@@fullnelson4986 fully agreed, there is no possible way these devs will keep the copium up long enough for the game to survive in prime condition.
That’s how games are nowadays, you think they care? Nothing will change 💀
4:00 Sam & these Hero Wars ad reactions will never not be funny LMAOOOO
31:03 pay attention to svb's wording when trying to justify an irrational argument. That's what happens when you willingly avoid common sense about something that doesn't need that much of a discussion. "You can still sorta make it work" I don't play games to make smth SORTA WORK my dude, that is a horrible game experience. The people supporting 5v5 are delusional af or they getting paid nicely, I don't see any other valid reason for this stuff.
Still remember when Flats was saying they don't get paid to promote overwatch. Then a couple of months later there was a creator summit and they all were able to record early footage to post later. Sounds like theirs a benefit to promoting the game.
Yeah they're not paid to shill 5v5 but they get benefits from sucking off the devs and 5v5 which turns into exclusive content (dev interviews) and therefore extra income.
@@Dingle.Donger haven't seen it that way, considering what this game has become that doesn't sound crazy at all. It's sad af tbh.
@@fractalized3 SVB, Emongg, Flats, ML7, etc. all get to talk to devs and put that up on their channels. They don't publicly criticize the game / devs like Samito. They'll make comments here and there about the status of the game but they all know not to bite the hand that feeds them.
In early OW1 days Seagull was known as the "good boy" of the community because he was so positive most of the time. Eventually he dropped the act, but back then that was part of what helped xQc grow in the community. He was the complete opposite. He constantly trashed the game, and it was no secret that they hated xQc. Even Flats said there was an OWL meeting where the management said they were glad xQc was finally gone.
@@Dingle.Dongergetting XQC blackballed from OWL for typing TriHard7 in OWL chat was blatant character assassination. The brass wanted any excuse to get him out of the spotlight.
I remember when Baptise was teased as a new hero, I thought that immortality field would be a great ult. 😂😂. That’s when they did a teaser vod for each hero with out explaining much to build hype. The imo field was the one ability you could clearly tell what it did and most of the vod reviewers at the time assumed it would be the ult. 😂😂😂
Immort and window should definitely be swapped with some adjustments
The 5v5 change was clearly the final nail in the coffin for jeff kaplan.
Jeff was still apart of the team when 5v5 was in development. He literally talked about changes to PVP in the Blizzcon 2021 video. He didn’t explicitly say "we’re doing 5v5" but he talked about changes that came with 5v5. We don’t know why Jeff left, so don’t say this like you’re spitting facts.
Sorry but you really don't know that. Good old Jeff is spinning in his metaphorical grave over 5 vs 5, so it proves its bad aint a great argument for it, there were probably a number of different reasons.
@@Phobie_2008 Bobby Kotick has to be the one to blame for OW2 being 5v5. He knew they weren't going to deliver on the PvE at all on OW2's launch, and so he looked at Overwatch's competitors that are 5v5 and made the devs develop the game around it, when in reality 2-2-2 is the best format for the type of game Overwatch is. The blizzcon 2021 video shows the early inklings of 5v5 even though they did not announce it during this Blizzcon. Jeff Kaplan left Blizzard just 2 months after that Blizzconline 2021, which shows his dislike of 5v5, showing that it was Bobby Kotick who forced it on the devs.
@@Phobie_2008 2-2-2 is better than 1-2-2. In 2-2-2, random death from spam occurs less often, and the added complexity of having 2 tanks simply adds to the replay-ability of PvP. Things are too 1-dimentional in 5v5, and many players have left because of these 2 reasons I gave.
@@lukeaustin4465Nicoli Tesla is spitting facts
Why does no one believe you about this? You have the most concrete argument about this. And season 8 where supports were gods was the least fun season ever and they had to add a dps passive to make the role useful.
Everything you've said is absolutely correct.
Hero design is a problem. If we looked at these characters, then people would know they are flawed. Because whatever format we are on. There's characters that just have too much.
Stylosa is a big truth speaker. This is why he doesn't get invited to Blizzard stuff anymore...
Stylosa was one of the biggest reasons we got moth. Mercy was fine before rework. At worst she needed an ult charge increase or a LIGHT rework to how mass rez was executed.
@@Rays326 How? I would like to know.
Best way to beat any 5v5 arguement is just to ask who, what or why? Why were queue times bad in 6v6 in comparison to 5v5 and what are the differences between the games, what caused double shield, why are tank synergies and any synergies bad when they only became bad under certain metas. Who or what enabled "certain" meta. What characters were the strongest under that meta and for what reasons. Why is fundamentally changing everything about the game better than just adding a tank and nerfing characters. For me it always comes down to 6v6 as a format not being an issue but certain things that were an issue but were never resolved because the devs never cared about balancing it.
The same can be said about 5v5. However, everyone thinks that this team is doing a better job, when they really arnt. They are just doing the same garbage on faster cycles so it doesnt get stale like it did before. Thats why this whole argument is dumb.
They have yet to balance tank. They just keep moving shells so people don't notice what the real problem.. they are idiots and so are the all the content creators.
People also don't realize there are/were way more dps heros so of course they are going to have more demand overall on the dps role. Like the fix is not format but add more tanks and supports. And the old team kept releasing more dps than other roles. New team is trying to balance out the quantity which is good.
Bro, what made double shield suck was grasp and fortify, people r so silly
Dont forget Brig and Bap too
@@zzzdee1980This. Busted backline for that pair of tanks.
double shield still wouldn’t have worked without immortality and brig. there were windows where tanks cooldowns were down and they had no shield but they still wouldn’t die cuz of immo
@@justinmaheelzay9650 right, the downside of double shield was that the tanks were TERRIBLE dealing with flankers and dive, double shield tanks are good fighting a straight fight on the front. The problem was the backline was too good at living and punishing dive, bap and brig had too much survivability and sustain.
IF the backline was zen and ana or mercy ana, they are much more vulnerable to dva, winston, ball, tracer, genji, sombra and/or doom
Only the pros know how to play meta comps properly, people in top 500 don't even play the meta comps properly.
top500 ppl saying that counterswapping is a real thing is what is ruining the experience. Most of them have no clue how to play a hero in multiple different styles. They only find half the roster "acceptable" and then get rolled by a one-trick they thought was bad design and blame the balance team for allowing them to be good.
Most of them are elitist idiots imo.
The whole Tank Synergies argument never made much sense to me. If at the same SR, why should the team with better synergy and communication lose?
the probs with tank synergies are the same problems sam mentions with support synergies. They both make it so that the window to punish is too small and its not fun because nothing dies when it "should"
Just imagine if Winston jumped in and bubbled, then when you break the bubble he instantly gets fortify, lives, then jumps out. That's what Sigma basically is
Before jumping out, he sucks in the incoming damage
Monkey flip makes him immune to cc
@IncredibleMet which also heals him for the damage he ate !
????
He has no mobility and has counters.
People called Samito toxic.
People said he was stupid/crazy
Many pushed what he said to the wayside…
Looks like he was dead right..
And still people deny it
People still live in denial…especially devs
Another thing that pisses me off about camp 5v5 is that they think when 6v6ers ask to bring back 6v6, they want all of Overwatch 1 back. No, that's not it at all.
For example, that comment about the stuns and CC'S. Yes those sucked, but we aren't asking for those back. We aren't asking to give Orisa her shield back or bring back 2 CP. We literally just want the format change to 6v6, a lot of the other good changes that OW2 brought we want to keep.
Just another instance of 5v5ers putting words into the mouths of 6v6ers
It's funny how nobody talked about 5v5 before OW2's trailers and its whole existence is rooted not in sincere concern with balance but in being a hasty marketing point for Overwatch 2. Here's my dumb take on the complete narrative
>CEO Kotick catches wind that the company is gonna be bought soon meaning he's eventually gonna walk
>Jeff announces OW2 with dreams of making PVE a reality and proving everyone wrong about Overwatch having no story
>Development is challenging with an intimidating workload, but it's going nonetheless
>Bobby gets a great idea
>Execs force devs to cripple OW1 with one last patch, leave it long enough for the iteration to become disliked and stagnant in preparation
>push OW2 as fresh and exciting with a brand new PVE and an all new 5v5 format
>During this time Bobby Kotick constantly shuffles dev manpower between random OW projects because he's stupid (Or he's trying to see what else gets shareholders horny and what doesn't) and the game gets delayed, hype withers
>Bobby's incompetence makes employees rage quit etc, the PVE team's integrity suffers and the project's scope becomes too much
>Interestingly none of this info leaks
>Bobby doesn't care, still wants the bullet point for the game's launch to run up numbers
>Devs scramble to make SOMETHING so they can't be sued for false advertising in the months to come
>Bobby gets a taste of that diablo immortal microtransaction money, decides PVE is old news anyway
>Game launches with negative actual content/features besides a few heroes and overpriced shop cosmetics, zero mention of PVE (for several seasons)
>Bobby warns the team responsible for Steam rollout to get ready to explode months in advance
>Team 4 decides to break the news on a "good season" (Season 6) to try to minimize the fallout, Bobby hides behind them. Jingle glorified archives missions in front of our faces
>Right on schedule the steam release happens, gets promptly review-MOAB'd as expected
>Bobby is too busy drowning in recycled-skin shop money to care
>Seasons 6, 7, and 8 have a "worst season ever" contest
>Story missions are bad as expected
>To make matters worse the devs let Mauga happen
>By this point Bobby is gone and laughing to the bank
>Microsoft comes in and sees the sick diseased dog that is Overwatch 2, wonders what in the world transpired
>Notices sales sucked, instantly decapitate the entire PVE team and more
>Team 4 is now flopping and choking in the wind perpetually trying to fix an effectively vestigial game format (with highly questionable degrees of success) for no good reason other than it'd be PR/marketing work
>newcomer players think things are just supposed to be this way
>What is even next
No seriously, a new game mode and a steady flow of cosmetics is cool, but... 6V6 is the only "BIG" and interesting thing I could see them doing. Just as 5v5 was, it does kind of feel like the most readily available and feasible marketing move. otherwise, It almost feels like the stage has been set for OW2 to just slowly fizzle out into cult obscurity if things keep going like this.
I'm gonna stop following 5v5 influencers now. enough is enough. i don't even like playing the game anymore. nothing is lost when you have nothing. samito fighting the good fight over here. 99 percentage of ow2 streamers have officially given up. we are just going to rebalance and rework every hero, again, for the second time. ow2 is only lucky no one has made a better team game, and even most people, sane people, would rather play valorant first.
The issue with 5v5 Open Queue which is capped at 2 per role is that the majority of people queuing will insta lock dps, sup should be fine, but holy crap NO ONE, and I mean NO ONE would want to play solo tank against two tanks on the other team. And goats playstyle could likely come back with 2 sup, 2 tanks and sombra.
In comp open 5v5 it's 4 tanks 1 support or 3tanks 2 supports
Never have I seen a dps that does anything even with the passive
10:46 LOOOOOL
Had me weak😂
LMFAO
I almost cried laughing at his reaction
Jumpscare
Dat ass so good you brand it. What did I just see?? lol
Samito, be our Overwatch president 👑
6v6 was just much better. It’s time to go back. 5v5 with giga buff tanks ain’t it.
or... nerf tanks so they arent giga tanks and keep 5v5 omfg
@@puck2694what are u talking about?? Tanks are ass rn😂💀
@@CesarCaballero-ui8tp So, if you take a tank.. and try to 1v1 any other hero, you will lose to them? Or is it your expectation of the playstyle of tank that makes them FEEL bad?
Q times is the worst argument because going Free 2 Play would have fixed that...
bad take. It wouldnt. Tank is just not fun to play to most people. It wouldn't of been helped by f2p because most transient players gravitate to familiar dps characters. Queue times would actually become worse because there would be even MORE dps players.
Sam's laughable point about 2020 queue times was because at that point, a lot of dps players had left the game by then because of queue times. It wasnt because more people felt the game was better.
Its a bad argument that can be easily debunked by player numbers continuing to drop during that time. There was no spike in tank players returning to the game.
@@puck2694
You're assuming that going f2p wouldn't have helped based on what?
I am a 6v6 enjoyer and would love 6v6 to come back BUT lets be real, if we did the devs would not be any better now at balancing the supports and tanks; to prove this I look at exhibit A: Kiriko exists....F Kiriko... Exhibit B: Horse...Why has horse been Meta for sooooooooooo loong... I hate her so much, she sucks aaaaaa555
Funny thing is that on brig it was not simply pressing one button to deny the value, it was having the ability to press any one of three buttons to do that. Bash, whip and pack, and that does not even take into consideration wether inspire was just passively up because you did damage 6s ago. FACT
26:45 and onward was the reference btw
Whats even funnier, is goats was only a thing in pro play. Bastion/Symm destroyed top500 idiots trying to run goats. Everyone else just hated those characters and refused to play them and flamed anyone that did.
But heck, that part of the player base never goes away huh? Its the same garbage players complaining about counterswapping today.
Queue times per role changes overtime. Tank in OW2 beta had long queues, support had short queues. It’s fixable based on how fun the role is.
I don't get people advocating 5v5. They try to make it sound like Overwatch 1 with 6v6 was a completely different game. Everyone i talked to at the beginning of Overwatch 2 straight up told me "yeah every match feels like Team Deathmatch now". People basically play an Arcade mode from Overwatch 1 now.
Samito, if I’m being honest with you.
I’ve never necessarily liked you, and same goes for some of you’re takes, but for once, I’m outright on you’re side with this, as im generally happy that someone is actually talking about 6v6, and why it needs/should come back.
As 5v5, at least from day 1 and right now, is outright grilled doodoo cheeks with a side of rotting cheese and some salt sprinkled on top.
It’s soo goddamm hard to wanna play OV2 now, and even then, it’s hard to even wanting to keep on playing it, to the point where I’d honestly rather watch the Movie, Wallace and Grommet: Curse of the WereRabbit, on a VR headset on loop, all day, every day.
OW fell off during 6v6 when they ruined Symm and started to head further down the fps route instead of the mixed fps/rts route that made the game great at the start.
6v6 was just as much hot trash as 5v5. Its just going down a road the devs just cant make work because they are fundamentally coming at balance the wrong way.
But ppl are dumb and can't see the easy solution to making 5v5 work.
@@puck2694 yeah, 6v6 was a little bad sometimes, but then again, that was mostly because of the amount of effects going on, the Symmetra Rework, and more so double shields with Orisa and Sigma, but Orisa doesn’t have her shield anymore, and even then, they could try and implement a system where there can only be 1 shield Tank on the team if everyone really is that afraid of 6v6.
but logically, how can they even make 5v5 work specifically for Tanks, in a stable format, without nerfing characters into the ground, or buffing Tanks soo much that they are unfairly strong, and there’s also the fact that there’s no real way of stopping what Tank is now because of 5v5, as all of the pressure is specifically put onto the Tanks, it’s all ways ether a intense game of Rock Paper Scissors between both Tanks, or it’s a game of how long can you last before switching Tanks, because of that Tanks hard counters... at least with 6v6, there was less pressure out onto the Tanks, Tanks playing Rock Paper Scissors was less, or if not, equal to how much times the other roles like Damage or Healer/Support played Rock Paper Scissors, the Tanks didn’t get as hard countered as they do in 5v5, and there’s also the fact that some Tanks don’t necessarily feel like they even belong in a 5v5 format, especially when some of the Tanks where created to specifically be Off-Tanks instead of Main-Tanks...
@@_DatDaft_ nerfing tanks into the ground will actually make them feel better to play and give you more impact. The reason tank feels so bad is just like you said, the pressure everyone puts on the one character. In order to kill them, they have to be the focus of all the attention. This is the only part of Sam's rant he gets right. If they are just an equal hero, the psychological factor of "the only way this thing dies is if everyone shoots it" or "the only way we win is if we hard pocket them" goes away. When that happens, the pressure gets redistributed and people playing them get to have more fun.
Prob is people think you need to add power to make it feel better. That seems more natural, right? But it actually has the opposite effect. 6v6 felt better because each tank was weaker. You don't need to go back to 6v6 to weaken each tank and remove the pressure on them.
When you remove the pressure on them to survive, it becomes more fun to play.
Now, if all these idiot content creators could see anything besides their own face on camera and started pushing a real solution instead of crying til they are blue in the face over stupid failed ideas like 6v6 and gigachad tanks.. we'd actually solve both sides' issues.
@@puck2694 but you do realise, even if they where to nerf Tanks in 5v5, it wouldn’t make it better, it would more so make it worse for playing Tank.
as now it’s easier for them to get hard countered by their counters, if the Tank leaves, it’s a automatic loss, Tanks getting pressured would be worse, and when I say pressure, I mean on the Tank itself, as the Tank gets hard focused by literally everyone, and the Player playing the Tank, as they have all this pressure thrown onto them to do good, and to try and not let the team down, and Tanks playing Rock Paper Scissors 24/7 will still be big issues that would just get worse...
6v6 fixes most of that, as again, there won’t be as much Rock Paper Scissors for Tanks in 6v6, just look at OV1, there was barely any of that, until OV2 made it very big, the pressures on Tanks would be cut in half, as now there’s 2 Tanks taking an equal amount of focus, and the pressure for the Tank Players would be basically be gone, if a Tank leaves, it’s not that much of a big issue, as you still have a fighting chance, and Tanks would/could still be countered, but the Tanks wouldn’t get hard countered anymore, as again, there’s now 2 Tanks, you can’t hard counter 2 Tanks, you could probably hard counter 1 of the Tanks, but then you’ve got another Tank who ether has 1 counter or no counters at all...
@@puck2694 also, I never said “nerfing Tanks into the ground” I meant as in other roles like Damage or Support getting nerfed into the ground, just so Tanks wouldn’t be countered as hard as they already do, but even then, that would cause more problems, as now Tanks would be more powerful.
27:10 Samito is right. It wasn’t an automatic loss when your tanks picked 2 tanks with no synergy. My friend and I ran rein /ball almost every game and won most of them. But for people who still want to die on this hill and still think that tank picks determined whether you lost or won, this exact argument can be said about the other two roles too. If team A is running lucio zen, and team B is running bap Ana, team B will win almost Everytime. If team A is running double hitscan, and team B is running junk pharah, team A wins every single time.
the whole argument is dumb and proves neither right. Tanks picking wrong isnt an automatic loss in 5v5 either. Its exactly the same. It all depends on if you have a team that will work together or throw because they dont like their teammates' pick. It happens with the same frequency in 5v5 as it did in 6v6.
Anyone who makes an argument other than that is showing extreme bias and is gaslighting.
@@puck2694 Don't have any data on this to prove anything for sure (as far as I'm aware, anyway), so we don't know for certain which angle is correct here. With this in mind, I'd be a little more conservative in saying things like one side must be gaslighting.
Here's the problem with SVB's Open Queue idea. Tanks would have to be balanced back to essentially the same as a 6v6 format so that two on one team would not be oppressive. That means a solo tank would be far weaker than they currently are. This would make tanks get destroyed without a tank duo (see: OW1 open queue in many matches).
Sam was speaking so much facts. I started getting flashbacks to pre brig overwatch 😢
I almost understand why people are on copium and self-gaslighting because remembering all of this in such detail actually hurts🥹😭💔
Sam is gaslighting. He's almost there with the tanks being too strong. His solution is dumb though. He's made is bed on the 6v6 train and is too obsessed with being right at this point that he's missing the easy solution and still keep 5v5. Thus he will constantly keep feeding into this stupid debate that he will never be able to win.. because he can only acknowledge queue times and completely gaslights his fans into believing that 6v6 was any better than the 5v5 is now.
So what is the real solution?
SVB is wild for that comment about Bap not getting dps medals in 6v6. I was consistently getting damage medals on Bap and Zen in OW 1 while maintaining the healing medals. It wasnt uncommon at all in the higher ranks. I was like masters peak doing that stuff lol.
Again right at the start Sam hits the nail on the head. If they made fun tank characters then people would have played tank. Of course everyone wanted DPS in overwatch 1, there were double the characters
OVERWATCH ENDED UP 6V6 ROLE QUEUE FOR A REASON!!!!! IT DID NOT COME OUT OF A VACUUM!!!!! 5V5 EFFECTIVELY CAME OUT OF A VACUUM
Why they not do a 6v6 weekend or week ?? Whhyyyy??!!
Cuz they know it's better and they would be forced to implement it to stay
It wouldn’t work well, because it would require a patch to tune down these overpowered and over-kitted tanks. Tbh it would be such a fake attempt and a slap in the face ‘cause I know the 5v5ers would use an unbalanced 6v6 trial as an excuse to say that it’s the worse format.
That’s admitting defeat and these boneheads rather roll in their own filth than admit they were wrong
@@Suicidalsheepthat's so fucking true. Ive been playing games since 5 years old (I'm 24). I ve never hate a single company, but blizzard is literally the worst company (on the last 8 years) I have ever seen. It's so insane how they not only didn't know how to fix the ow1 issues like brig being op or double shield but going into a downgraded version of the game by removing one tank and all the synergys with it. Wow, just wow... We literally should just not play the game unless they bring 6v6 back. And I think that will never happen
@@ISMAELAMENGUAL I feel you, been playing blizzard games since 2007 and I’m kinda used to being in this toxic relationship with them lol. It happened with world of Warcraft it happened with Diablo it happened with heroes of the storm and it happened with overwatch. After seeing the bunch of skins they released the last seasons I’m convinced PVE was fixable but why sell one piece of the game for 60-70 bucks when you can strip every single thing out of it and sell it for 20+ a skin. It’s not just corporate blizzard but also this dev team still think their some rock and roll celebrities convinced they are doing and okay job. If they were truly do great they would’ve left OW1 up for the people wishing for that but we all know which game would’ve been the most played out of 1 and 2 and it ain’t the f2p cash shop with the 5v5 minigame attached to it.
Nothing will end the debate, can't wait for next weeks video about 6v6 🤝
Plat players never synergized, they always just instalocked hog and fed
they always locked in Genji and thought they were Shatter2k or Widow cause they wanna be Kephrii
Always is a strong word. I played in diamond for a long time myself and yes, people didn't synergise often... but it did happen occasionally.
The way Sam talks about 6v6 makes me feel like I was there for it, hopefully we get it back someday
That mobile game ad and Sam's reaction had me on the FUCKING FLOOR LMAOOOO 😂
I largely agree with Sam except for his opinions on ball’s design as a character. He keeps lumping wrecking ball in with Sigma and Orissa as poorly designed characters, but ball should not be in that group. He’s designed very fairly and easily counterable. That’s why Sigma translates well into 5v5 and is always Meta, while Ball has been mostly terrible in 5v5 along with Rein. Ball works great as a flex/off tank in 6v6 and I don’t think he was ever oppressive because of how counterable he was with stuns and CC.
He put them together when he was saying OW1 tank releases were bad. Ball is fun (I’m a true baller), but you have to admit he is niche and hard to get into. Sigma is OP, and Orisa is boring but also slightly OP
@@pphaver871 Sigma and Orissa I agree were badly designed because they had too much sustain, but ball I think was fairly designed. And I agree ball is more niche, but he’s also a really fun and unique movement based hero. I just don’t view him as poorly designed in the way Orissa or Sigma were with too much sustain and boring playstyles. If I remember correctly, ball was not as unpopular in OW1 as he is in OW2.
ball was extremely hard to kill in overwatch 1 with his movement and adaptive shields. a good ball would run a lobby because of his survivability only thing that shut him down was sombra.
I am so tired of people like svb trying to gaslight me that 6v6 was worse. I as a tank player cannot have fun because you die in half a fucking second or I get to play against a guy who I kill once and they instantly go to a fucking counter. If you somehow manage to kill their supports once you’ll never to it again because, you’re a tank you can’t kill anything. This is so unhealthy for the game and I have genuinely hated every second of playing tank in overwatch 2. I used to love to play tank and have fun but now I either play orisa, sig, Mauga or lose the game. But 6v6 was the issue right blizzard?
11:30 while trying to say that tanks were the issue, said that the main support line would have been moira lucio brig. Weird that there isn’t any single target healing
I seriously don't understand the tanks could not be countered argument. It does not take genius to just look at the stats, Zarya had 200 less health, only 1 bubble and didn't have immortality giving supports bailing them out of any situation. How does anyone look at that and say they weren't killable. Tanks now casually have over 800hp with damage reduction, healing, hard cc. Then we look at over-watch 1 zarya with half the health and none of this over-watch 2 bloated kits. It's actually insane, if you were to tell an early over-watch 1 player hey in the future there is going to be tanks with 800 health, they would call you insane, now it's just normal. The damage reduction is pretty much makes them have over 1,000 effective health, and it gets healed fully within seconds because supports are more brain dead and op then ever.
I spent 180$ buying 3 copies of the original game on different platforms just to have the game become free to play. It feels like i ordered a family sized bag of my favorite snacks off the internet and instead got a snack sized bag, and the packaging and flavor are just completely different and the toy at the bottom of the bag is melted alibaba plastic figurines. On top of it all you have everyone around you gaslighting saying its better now because its easier to ship and more people have access to it. They refuse to admit it tastes more stale, and some of them never even experienced the original. Or they're like "oh you just remember it being sweeter" while they chug a 120oz jug of copium.
reminder we never had role queue WITHOUT SIGMA BRINGING DOUBLE BARRIER, tank queue was not the problem we tank players got bored of only playing 2 heroes
Sam got the point about sigma sooooooo wrong. Sigma's design has never been his problem, only his power. A hero that can do a lot, should be weak in everything he does. Utility should be the strength and more specialized heroes should have the power in a respective skill with an even heavier weakness elsewhere.
Sam's takes on hero design is just dumb and gaslighting. Hog and Ball were hated in 6v6 because they didnt protect their teammates, which was necessary in 6v6. Characters like Queen (who is just a modern hog) would have been just as flamed as Hog was in 6v6. And his take that Hog was an acceptable tank by the community in 6v6 was laughable.. the devs buffed him all the time because of all the creators crying that Hog was unplayable and an insta loss if a teammate picked him in role queue.
I couldnt believe he said that stuff in seriousness and ppl actually let him gaslight them on it.
@@puck2694mad coincidence that im replying to you again, i just disagreed and felt like needing to reply lmaoo it just happened to be you again
I think sigmas design is inherently trash, because you make a good point that a hero that can do a lot should be weaker.. but how can you make sigmas whole kit weaker without him being useless. Hes a type of hero where he is a jack of all trades, rock that stuns, grasp that mitigates, m1 that has decent range and zoning, m2 that zones snipers and mitigates again. They are all baseline strong abilities, only way to effectively nerf them is to nerf him to the ground so no one picks him. He generally always has a cooldown up that can save him, every other tank in ow1 (other than horse) could not say the same.
I love this drama so far cause the ones defending 5v5 dont bring anything valuable that says 5v5 is superior to 6v6 cause in during their defense their mentions is just giving more value to 6v6 and not 5v5, (me n few friends did some test has casual and the only we found 5v5 playable was 2 tanks 1 dps n 2 healers, was the only way we found somehow to make balance, cause with 1 tank the matches too fast n ther were barely n fighting).
The 5v5 argument only brings 1 good argument. Queue times, which can be fixed by adding fun tanks (Not Orisa or Sigma, but your JQs and Doomfists). The other arguments they bring to the table are just brain dead and it just goes of the basis of "Double Shield bad" which just isn't true, Sigma & Orisa BAD (even though low ranks didn't even have to worry about it and it took a SHIT TON OF CO-ORDINATION). "GOATS BAD and tanks caused that", NOOOOOO supports caused that. Everyone for 5v5 do not touch tank, 5v5 is TDM which benefits the DPS and support players. Tank has been in the gutter for the majority of OW2, eventually we will have the Queue time problem because no one will be playing tank even with only 2 tanks needed for a game. Even the recent patch notes show they don't care about tank, cuz IMO they were pathetically small and didn't change much.
The only negative from adding a 6v6 gamemode would be a blow to blizzards ego, idk how brainwashed people have to be to believe 6v6 wasnt the best version of the game. Like if youre so adamant 5v5 is better put your money where your mouth is and add a 6v6 gamemode and let it play out.
Never stop fighting for us Sam, the end goal is worth fighting for.
Ow2 5v5 wouldn’t survive 3 years with no new content and ow1 6v6 did. I stopped playing tanks a few seasons ago, the pressure to perform is just too high. And I ain’t getting pay for playing this game. Can’t even play the tank you want anymore without being called a thrower. Eventually ow2 is going to run out of tank players unless they bring back 6v6.
I was never “don’t bring back 6v6 because it’s unbalanced” I was “let’s make 5v5 work” but I’m past that now. I’m writing a paper on business ethics and hoping 6v6 makes a comeback with an extreme overhaul and rebalance of all characters.
When people in ow1 said they hate orisa because of her shield. Now in ow2, she has no shield and people really hate her.
It’s almost like the shield wasn’t the biggest problem in her kit and maybe it was fortify.
Orisa wasnt a problem at all. The devs were just dumb and wanted to remove her barrier for the PR because all these content creators complained about her barrier and felt she was "unfun" to play.
They ruined her just like they convinced the devs to ruin Symm. I only watch this garbage to get my rage out yelling at these idiots. The fact that the devs listen to these guys is why the game is garbage. Sam wants you to think he wasnt one of them... but he was and they still listen to him. He's just as misguided as everyone else.
I have yet to hear any one of these talking heads address the solution to EVERYONE's problem. They are all dumb. But, i guess that is also why they are sitting there talking to cameras instead of actually being good at fixing things in the real world.
This! OMG IT DRIVES ME INSANE.
OW1 Orisa apparently killed the game but OW2 Orisa is apparently the Devil incarnate and when she gets nerfed it’s the second coming lmao what is the logic!
@@puck2694
What's the solution?
You should put together a compilation of all the times steamers said it was the supports. I remember watching flats vids ranting about it, we need to remind the streamers that they said this in the past. I think they actually forgot.
One side has people who are consistent and coherent in their argument they stick to through out. The other side often tends to fire a scatter gun and preach their philosophy degrees instead of gameplay experience and try and force their ideology like it’s better for the game cough cough, mr you want counter picking freedo
Freelo*
Counter picking has ALWAYS been a thing. Its stronger in ow2 because of ult charge retaining and the fact that tank is overpowered. Both can be fixed for 5v5 to work. You dont need a 2nd tank for that to be the case.
Id rather wait 30mins every time than play 5v5
I do hope the devs see this it’s harsh but it’s the truth and I have more confidence in the newer dev team to actually make a more balanced version of 6v6 based on the recent improvements the the game now
SVB: "Supports in 6v6 don't have enough options to do damage"
Awkward (who was called by SVB once as a coach, duh): *playing UR2GM Ana in 6v6* "Damage, damage, damage."
Luv u SVB, but were you high when u shoot the video?
As someone who is known as “Dilly Doomfist” in my friend group due to how many hours I’ve spent maining Doomfist, I have completely quit playing doom. I refuse to play tank anymore, but man am I excited for venture.
Imagine how fun Tank Doom would be in 6v6 tho
@@wayfer7243 he would be gas, I actually really like tank doom, it’s just that the role blows.
@@Freesliterature For sure, as a Rein main my pain is immeasurable playing OW2.
Venture new DPS DF
@@primus_03 Yeah but as a fighting game player, I enjoy Doom's characteristics more.
The solution svb suggested would probably go like this in lower ranks
A mix of 5 DPS / support players queue up
"Give me DPS or I'm throwing"
"You be tank or I'm throwing"
Also, you run into the issue where you can have 0 tank players on your team, and the enemy has 1 or 2, and then you lose because your tank isn't a tank player - basically the equivalent of roadhog on priority pass. This is an unavoidable issue when putting everyone in the same player pool. Match quality will severely decrease with the benefit of reduced queue times
Im going to kiss you samito
Not if I kiss him first
Nah I'll kiss him first 😘
Gay
Guys chill out... I already kissed him
@@OGamelon you can kiss your homie , must not have homies
Sam's reaction to the fake game ad sent me man..😂🤣
They definetly need to do something to Sig. His uptime is so high. Simply add bigger cd on his shield reposition like at least 6 sec. He is boring to play against and with. He only struggles against dive, but with new update they make his shield move faster so he will able to deal with ppl ignoring him.
The opportunity for more active and aggressive engagements is way higher now for ALL ROLES. Everyone forgets the games when your team simply cannot break a choke or couldn’t take the off angle that could create the needed pressure to win the fight because there was another player there who won because they overpowered you with stats. This happened constantly in lower ranks. This resulted in teams solely winning fights with ultimates by stand still and shooting the two meat blocks in front of them. This extra focus on shooting tanks then made the whole game a battle of attrition and didn’t incentivize supports to do anything but heal bot and build their ults too. The switch to 5v5 and free to play has introduced a whole gen of players who have been playing the version of the game that rewards more active decision making and better positioning. Now we expect people to be happy when we slow the pace of the game back down and remove more of the fps aspects that so many of these new players have been enjoying and replace it with the much less satisfying MOBA aspects that people complained about in OW1? I just don’t buy it for a second. I’m perfectly happy with trying to rework the tanks to offer more counterplay and decision-making options to be proportional to that of the other roles but in 1 player. Setting up an engagement for my team without the necessity of another player is perfectly fine for me.
Sincerely, a maintank player.
I’m so tired of being gas lit by the people talking about this. Samito you’re one of the few people I see hit the nail on the head when it comes to the argument. Being in high masters and low gm in ow 1 I know about “tank synergies” and most of the time you had 1 good tank and other just kinda doing there own thing but even still I remember winning games when my tanks were clearly not as good as theirs. It really did come down to how well the supports were keeping everyone up. the biggest problem hero’s was bap brig. I think a lot of people forget that ow1 tanks were a lot different than ow2 tanks, they’ve been buffed up because there is only one. No, the problem wasn’t the tanks, the problem was once you got a tank low boom immortality field, and oh do you want to get close to a tank to engage a fight BOOM I’m stunned by the best CC in the game brigs bash. Like that thing used to go through Riens shield she was almost like a third tank.
When it came to double shield yes that was rough, but what was double shield, most of the time that was Orissa and sig two of the most annoying tanks to play against in the game, add a 500 hp brig shield might ass well call that triple shield. But again when you would hear people complain about rough matches it wasn’t, ooo man I wish there was only one tank, the tanks are way too powerful of a role, no it was complaining about how strong some of these broken hero’s were. That’s a balance problem not a format problem never was a 6v6 problem and I’m tired of being gas lit into thinking so.
Take a look at what we have today, shoot I don’t even play tank on my main because why would I? That role is fundamentally not rewarding at all. Who wants to spend most of the game swapping counters because someone lost the fight. You win the fight, enemy tank swaps, you lose, time for you to swap, how and in what world is that a better gameplay loop. You as a tank are set up to failure as soon as you que, you’re in the complete mercy of your backline and what the tank match up is. That’s why ever since season 1 I don’t type tank diff that’s the last thing a tank wants to here after getting throttled all match. If our tank is getting out swapped or is getting diffed because he doesn’t play a counter I don’t even blame them, they were set up to lose before the game even started, and now the whole team has to suffer because of an inferior format. That’s why tank Que times in every rank is instant no one wants to play that role now more than ever, because no one wants to play counter watch and then get flamed because they don’t know how to play as good on a counter to the opponents tank.
I’ll end with this little bit too do you guys remember how fights used to play out? I feel like in ow1 you used be able to have longer engagements in fights, there was a lot more dynamic play in each engagement and that’s what I thought was so interesting about ow. Even if you lost a tank you still had another one up there that could at least keep the fight some what going, sometimes you could even win the engagement if you got a nice pick after your tank died. Now if your tank died first, alright everyone back up and twiddle our thumbs for the next 10-30 seconds because our tank needs to come back from spawn.
Samito-wan Kenobi, your my only hope, to get rid of this shit play style of 5v5 and bring back 6v6.
I don't think tank Doom has a playstyle that translates well to DPS players. He's literally a DPS hero that converted to a tank and therefore his loyal playerbase followed by proxy. But the point still stands for Queen, Ram and Mauga.
Honestly, the main reason I miss 6v6 is the tank duo's with friends. Had such good fun times playing dive and rein/zarya etc. Now I just play the qp open queue all the time so I can play whatever I want.
All you have to do is ask people what is more fun.
When he said supports weren’t dishing out damage I wheezed. To this day my highest kill support game was Zen, I think it was late 2019, maybe early 2020, I got a 37 elim game, it was comp too I remember our lobby absolutely crumpled the enemy team. I was just bordering the entry into GM at the time. I remember talking with a few other supports at the time in the ranks. This is a lie, absolute gaslighting. Bap, Zen, Brig, Moira hell even good Lucio’s were putting in just disgusting damage stats. Good times in 6v6.
SAMITO REACTION UA-cam ADS ARE ALWAYS GOLDEN 😭😭
1:08:00 this rant hit home because even in MASTERS people would play double shield and me and my tank duo would play some dumb shit like Orisa Hog or Zarya Ball and still ROLE because no one played those "OP synergies" optimally below the 1% of top players so i HATE these people like Jake and Avrl, love those dudes and their content but using that as an excuse is so small minded like yes in OWL its oppressive but who CARES??? its now oppressive to have an op tank like Mauga for not just top ranks but my masters games and my friends gold games
Like him or hate him Samito Stands on business
Not only did tank feeling bad at the start of role queue (because we were instantly in double shield and all the AOE healing) cause the long DPS queue times, but players were also STARVED of getting to play DPS in a proper match due to GOATS. Like at high level GOATS was so prevalent it was a throw to be in a GOATS mirror lobby and pick DPS, but even lower down in the ranks people would just abuse Brig or any of the silly GOATS era power creep and it made DPS feel awful. So once people got a consistent 222 experience they flocked to DPS, and anyone interested in tank quickly realized that unless they were about to have OWL level coordination with their random duo on an honorable tank pair (any combo of Rein, Winston, Dva, Zarya), it was far easier to just lock double shield even without coordination since it basically played itself.
Like as Rein/Zarya you have to min max the Rein shield and trade resources efficiently to work an advantage and push in then bubble timing was crucial to squeeze out max value, same goes for Monkey bubble and “stretching” the value with Dva DM. Then with double shield, sure you could get absurdly maxed out value by perfectly alternating shields and covering eachother with fortify/grasp, but in plat or quickplay people could just select those heroes and plop their shields on main and individually get the value of a Rein/Zar pair without any input. It just played itself. That was the big issue, and it’s because Sigma was an OW2 tank design put in OW1 and was way overkitted and Orisa still had stupid GOATS era buffs with no headshot in fortify etc. Let alone having better brawl abilities than the brawl tanks and being backed up by Bap/Brig who were egregiously unhealthy support designs. Those 4 heroes being changed could have easily pushed OW to the top again, but Blizzard was insistent on having heroes that can play themselves for accessibility, even if it hurts the game for even semi-competent players.
Funny enough, this is the same design philosophy in 5v5, release heroes without weaknesses and patch any existing weaknesses out so that everyone can get value, and 5v5 also forces this design philosophy because the solo tank can’t have a weakness, supports need to just be better DPS to fend of flankers/tanks since they are unprotected, and DPS then need the passive to remain relevant at all. The ONLY way we can pull ourselves out of this slow downfall (which IMO has been a consistent trend since 2018) is if we go back to 6v6 so they can change the balance philosophy and stop overkitting all the heroes and adding free win buttons. That is the only reason 6v6 ever felt bad during role queue. People say they hate shooting shields, but why didn’t Blizzard design a game where you could beat them by just going around them? It used to be that way, but that stopped being a thing once an OWL Tracer could get stomped by a gold Brig. That is fundamentally the issue, they could have two 5,000hp shields and if the AOE/immo supports weren’t so absurd you could just dive behind them or brawl through them to win. We just keep going down this same path because Blizzard refuses to change this balance philosophy and was willing to trash the game by converting it to 5v5 in order to not change this. They do not want a healthy skill/reward curve and that is fundamentally why we have 5v5 and why they always avoid problems and do something different instead, because somehow they think it’s good game design for some players to bypass the learning curve of the game and get free value. 6v6 allows us to finally make that change and have a healthy game, it doesn’t fix it overnight but it’s the better format for sure. 5v5 locks us into this poor balance we’ve always had and doesn’t allow us to make this fix that’s like 6 years overdue.
Absolute facts and somehow im the third like of this comment. Underrated af
Dude’s rage justifies the ads every 5 mins
I guess the only thing that will make people debating 5v5 happy is to get rid of all the tanks and just make it three dps and two supports. Problem solved, right? 🤷
Then mei, reaper, bastion and etc become the new pseudo tanks LMAO.
Why they ever swapped 2 tanks I'll never know. They could've made overwatch so good.
10:47 The mobile game ad breaks are always the real content on Samito's vids lol
I can end the debate in one sentence. "6v6 was more fun". And if something is more fun, thats what the game should be
Healing should be easy but MUST NOT be strong, that's the issue here. It's not hard to heal tanks with Ana, but she wasn't an issue because she doesn't have hard denial abilities. Look at Lucio, he has constant AOE heals but isn't freakin busted like brig, bap, moira and kiriko. Combined with denial abilities like lamp, suzu and grip, supports just break the game.
Health in an equal skilled team fight must always result in a net loss, skills should not be a press button to gain UNPUNISHABLE advantage. If a team is losing, they must retreat early to heal or face major losses. Healing should be easy so supports can play the game and shoot enemies too, where mechanical skill actually matters. Otherwise just go play a different game to heal bot.
I'm sorry but I watched this video from SVB last week and I kinda hate it because it titles itself and tries to behave like it's goal is to "end the debate" but it comes nothing close to doing that. It's like a conglomeration of the cliff notes regarding peoples arguments and doesn't even go very far into many of them followed by a single format idea, loosely investigated, that may or may not improve the gameplay cycle of Overwatch.
To truly look into "ending the debate" would take a lot more work than this. Pull the vods. Dig into the past of these creators, these ex and current pros. SHOW how these things worked or didn't work. It might honestly be an undertaking too big for one person. A few people may need to work on it but it's all there. Scrims, OWL vods, content updates and reports of the past, interviews, if someone wanted to they could really put together an actual presentation that highlights the details of where we are, where we were, and where we should be with Overwatch.
I'd love to see it.