Dismantling YourOverwatch's Pro 5v5 Argument (Overwatch 2)
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- Why The 5v5 Defenders are WRONG... (Overwatch 2)
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It greatly upsets me that we will never go back to 6v6. Not because the dev team truly thinks 5v5 is better, but because going back to 6v6 would be a PR nightmare
Also due to the fact that blizzard no longer cares about making overwatch the best game it can be. They want it to be as entry level as possible, to as many people as possible, to sell 20 dollar skins.
Blizzard is driven primarily by a horrible mix of embarrassment and pride these days. Really sad to see play out for this long
It really sucks to see what happened to it
They use to really strive to make a great game, but now they could hardly be bothered to do anything other than sell skins and make worse and worse choices
I think they've had worse PR honestly. It'd be miniscule negative PR compared to some things they've been through.
No, because it's really bad and you all falling to the rosy retrospection bias.
IMO.
I spent 2k hours going from bronze to masters on tank in overwatch 1, it was by far my favorite game. I haven't played in months because of these issues. Well said Sam
Same here, altho I'm a dps at heart but I loved flexing to both support and tank, and got near masters on both. It was fun, enjoyable, full of skill expression and knowledge of map, resource rotation, ult combos, counter moves.. Now it's just who has the better supports backing you up, and you play the counterpick game. So braindead, I stopped playing tank entirely because of it. Overtuned support abilities and no room for flair on tank has killed OW2.
Same I went from Bronze to Diamond right below you and I'm in my mid 30's and OW1 playing as a team and strategy was so much more important and fun..I can't explain the dopamine boost and fun I would get to know not only I executed but I did working together with strangers from all across the world. It's just not the same feeling with OW2 and I find myself bored with either steam rolling the other team or me getting steam rolled, it's so rare it's a close fight.
@@blesstalksDude for real. The dopamine you got as a team collaborating and executing just felt so right in OW1. And the short bond you made with the players on your team you felt like really good friends for the match when you figured out how to overcome the other team. A lot of that is destroyed with ow2. They even kick you out of the match way earlier so you don't even have a chance to talk to your team when the match ends. It's feels so soulless.
@@nathancasey7712 I was getting win after win on support last night and I was just bored even with winning. It just doesn't feel team like it's I did all this stuff on my own to help carry. I miss 6v6
Had 4000 hours in 0W1 grinded to masters. I haven't bothered with OW2 except with friends. It's so much less enjoyable and rewarding even when I win.
6v6 was a blast. Yes, it wasn’t perfect by any stretch, but the flexibility made it better.
I’ve never seen a meta form in plat and below, but here we are where if you play any other tank than Orisa and Zarya, you’re just throwing. Torbs and bastions EVERY game all the supports with so much healing nothing dies (coming from a support main). Thank you 5v5
@@TheLastEgg08 YUP. I was an OW1 plat tank main and don't play anymore because it's the most two-dimensional role in the game. Meta didn't apply to plat tanks in OW1 but now there's like 3 choices unless you're a one-trick who's basically a smurf.
Also, I was a Ball main... Now he's just a ball tickler. I'm not willing to grind out GM level mechanics to have any impact on my favorite hero.
@@ShanyeSoT I know you said you won't grind out GM level mechanics, but IMO ball and doom (but especially ball) have the most fun playstyles and if the lobby isn't too stacked against you or your team mates know dive heroes and are willing to play with you, they are still very playable. When I play the more depressing thing other than failing at pulling off your non meta hero pick is not the failing or losing part, but actually the toxic meta slave attitudes from team mates. But you can always just mute that.
If the devs used those 3 years making "OW2" to just balance the fucking game, there wouldn't be so many problems. 6v6 wasn't perfect, but they could have spent that time making the game better.
@@Real_Nutella a single sombra and you can't play ball
Yeah I'm sure all the new players LOVE being spammed with "Tank Diff" every game... It fosters such an attachment and love for playing the role...
Know that feeling tank gets blamed no matter what happens its crazy
I wish this was top comment.
Get 60+ elims on Zarya "tank diff"
My first unranked competitive game as tank in Overwatch 2 was literally just getting destroyed by the enemy tank with "tank diff" typed in chat.
If the enemy tank types "tank diff" or "mtd" to you, it's just banter between two tank players. It's never supposed to be toxic, offensive, or an insult. It's just friendly banter and tank players know this. But if dps or support players type it, they mean it.
I do want to say Sam, thanks for keeping up the fight for 6v6 and voicing everything we want to say. Keep at It
Agreed
@@dwamnationn same
I can't believe people still cope about 5v5 "being better"
More like you have no sure arguments and need someone to craft it.....just how it sounds imo
@@MegaDuke4life I have arguments, I just don't have enough of a impact as Sam does because he is a streamer and I'm not, he is big enough where he can post this video and the devs can actually pay attention.
It wouldn't matter how many arguments I would get into on either Reddit, UA-cam or OW Forums my voice would never be heard.
I love playing Rein. Rein was the character that got me in to Overwatch. I have a Rein tattoo. I have a Rein figure on my desk. I paid for a Rein Seoul skin in OW1.
In OW2, Rein is probably one of my least played tanks because it's just insanely unenjoyable due to counterwatch. Bring back 6v6. For justice, for honour.
Im in the same situation as you, but as a Zarya main. I racked up around 600hrs on Zarya in OW 1, but ever since OW2 release ive played less than 10 hours on her.
I was also a rein main who went to Dva or sig when needed or depending on map. Now if I play tank at all its pretty much just orisa zar. Super disappointing.
bringing back 6v6 wont necessarily make rein good and rein has also been good in ow1
@@killerlamas3532 Rein being “good” and “playable” are different things. We want playable
@@Boss24601exactly
Fun fact, the supports enabled the double shield meta. Double shield would not be an issue if the supports were still Lucio, mercy and zen
So just have no support diversity and go back to 6v6
What a brain-dead take 😂
Or bcuz they added orisa and sigma dum dum , everybody loves to blame support 😭🤣
@@niggachu420 huh? No one ran double shield before brig what are u talking about
Wow! I came into this thinking I would disagree because of how much I hated double shield, but you’ve actually changed my mind. Great video.
the shield in double shield or goats is the least of the problems vs the sustain skills on said poke tanks and aoe healing + the cc powercreep.
There's no double shield anymore.
@@ghoulbuster1 can you read LMAO OP is talking about 6v6
Double shield was a support problem. Double shield in theory should've been countered by dive, but the overtuned supports were essentially undivable
I’d love to see Sam and Freedo do a one on one discussion on this.
I think this would end kind of weird, if Freedo doesnt see he is arguing against himself it would end with both of them just screaming at each other lol.
Freedo is just a shill. No point having him on any objective discussion. This video proves it
@@heiko2255that’s how debates/discussions go when there are very opposing views 😅
@@heiko2255 It can be done easily in a constructive way. Look at the State of Overwatch video, where Seagull and Surefour had drastically different views on the game, but they were able to have a constructive discussion
It'd be hard to set up actual arguments when both make the same points but Freedo reaches divergent conclusions that are centered in bias rather than understanding. If Freedo's points were actually different, there would be more grounds for arguments in a debate - but this way it'll just be one person trying to convince the other that they got the math wrong.
queen point is insane bc theres no way someone designed junker queen and decided shes a much better main tank than potential off tank
she was definitely designed when 6v6 was in mind
Also the maps, like New Queen Street. Tf you gonna do against a Widow and Hanzo spamming you from narnia across the map with absurd sight lines? Or so many open spaces for Soldier to just run around uncontested with free value lasering you down from whatever angle he desires? Imagine if you had an off tank who could help control that vast space and not just let people get value for free.. Seems like everything was made for 6v6 and the whole drop-a-tank was an afterthought cooked up by the marketing team or some shit.
@@Real_MisterSir facts bro
@@Real_MisterSir from "narnia" had me dying lol🤣🤣
🤣@@L0neW0lfMindset-escap3
Also, imagine saying that having to make "team-based" decisions and choices in a TEAM-BASED GAME is somehow *not* what you want to be priority in character selection....in a TEAM-BASED GAME.
Thats because even in a team based setting humans are typically selfish. Ever play an mmorpg that needs supports and wonder why you can never find one?
@@aerostrafe1075YOUR OPINION DOES NOT MATTER, you reply alot for being completely wrong and dont even read the paragraphs sent to you on why you are wrong piss off somewhere i bet you dont even play the game and if you do you are either silver or quickplay only your opinion DOES NOT matter.
@@aerostrafe1075 but in ow 1 I found it not difficult at all to get my 2nd tank to either play main tank or off tank while I played the other
@@onepieceofbbq6357 Mainly just pointing out how some people tend to just play for themselves in team based games. I remember before role que how rough it was getting anything going at character select.
Right? Like let's make it 1v1 at this point!?
Since you get so much control over exactly who's going to win the game! Surely that's a good idea right!?
counter picking refered to as strategy is like comparing the differently shaped toy blocks to be put in differently shaped holes for toddlers to driving a car
Imagine if we went back to 6v6. The 2 in OW2 would be hilariously unjustified. No PvE and back to 6v6 XD
Why else do you think they won't switch to 6vs6, they know they'll get flamed for it as they deserve
@@Glizzymanexactly they dug their own hole. Now accept it and apologize. We the real players will accept the apology of course you will have haters who cares. Atleast the game survives the next 3 years instead of becoming a completely dead project. Be humble admit you were wrong, we know it was all about money, we arent stupid. We dont care anymore we just want a playable game and no more false promises. Not much to ask for.
@@WorldKeepsSpinnin I'm ngl I though you were saying for me to apologize but I reread it to make sure
But yes someone said it, they came out with pve and were truthful and while obviously we were and still are shitting on them for it it's better now then before, they need to suck it up and come out with 6vs6 atleast for arcade or preferably qp so everyone isn't running bullshit stuff and boom, we can see which one is truly better or at the very least we have 6vs6 here for fun and some good content like I wanna see flat and emong run it back with double tank
5 v5 Does Not Make it Justified Either, Still the Same game with an Update
It's just people are easy to fool by putting the Number in front of the title, OW 2 Should mean pve Exclusively
5v5 helped with the Facade as well
However, not going back to 6v6 (or 7v7 2-3-2) is probably the pile-driver on a dead game
I can't believe people actually defend 5v5 when it was made as a cheap excuse to solve the easily avoidable problem of the double shield meta. I tried dismantling some stuff under that comment section too but people just can't wrap their heads around blizz making a worse game than the original which is wild because thats what they have been doing for a while now. I feel like Samito is the only one that actually knows what he is talking about anymore and is better for it because he isn't playing OW2 as much.
We never got to see the Orisa rework in OW1. I think a toned down version of that would have been fantastic in 6v6. The fix for 6v6 was right there. Now we have an overwatch where ball and hog would prob be better off in the dps category simply because they can't keep up with these jack of all trades tanks we're getting.
@@RaccoonBrigadeas a pretty average player who’s stayed around diamond low masters and high plat depending on the role I prefer 5v5 just because I feel like I have much more individual impact whether I’m playing tank or support or tank I feel like I can carry much more
Said tank twice but yk what I mean
@@RaccoonBrigadeRam/Zarya would honestly destroy double barrier if double barrier was still a thing.
I think we woulda seen Ram/Zarya/Reaper/Mei/Lucio/Ana or Bap or Kiriko. And they woulda been able to do nothing because Sigma wouldn't be able to cycle his CDs the way he could've in OW1 due to Ram forcing himself in their faces.
Even JQ/Zarya duo woulda done well vs double barrier.
@@mattc6015 There are countless games where you personally can go make an impact. Go do it. Overwatch was never that. Brutalizing a beloved team based shooter in this way has been disgusting. You want maximum impact? Go play a 1v1. What you are doing is saying "I wish LoL would just remove a player so that I can have more impact". At that point why not just keep doing that untill EVERY GAME is a 1v1 and everyone can have maximum impact. There is a reason there are a variety of games. Taking the one game that was a team focused shooter and turning into generic fps trash heap 284 is not good. There are 283 other trash heaps. Go pig out in one of those.
I actually found Sigma very fun, he’s my favorite tank. That being said, as one of the very few remaining tank mains, 6v6 is objectively better, I miss it :(
Sigma is also one of the few tanks that is consistently viable in 5v5 due to his diversity and stacked ability set. He is indeed very fun tho
Sig legit does everything so he is the perfect tank for 5v5
Honestly I used to not be a big Samito fan. I didn't dislike him but I felt he was sorta confrontational and/or whiny at times but I realize now why he was so confrontational. It was to try to avoid things like 5v5.
I've pretty much done a complete 180 since knowing he was arguing for 5v5 (go figure when I agree with someone I like them more) because he's really good at putting arguments into words that I wouldn't be able to think of. I was also playing Mineplex when there was 150 players at peak hours so him reviving my favorite server also gave him a big up in my books LOL.
I doubt you'll see this Sam but if you do, from semi-disliker (not hater) to fan, I'm proud of you :) Keep fighting the good fights ❤
W
and they say chivalery is dead.
co-signed
Relatable
@@babousk7593 Blizzard Killed it I swear
Tanks used to be the ones that complained the most about 2CP, with the reason being that they needed to play perfectly to stand a chance of winning. Now every game feels like it's 2CP and you have to play perfectly as the tank otherwise you stand no chance at all.
Never agreed more with your point about counterpicking. I like to play Winston. I’m just okay at the game. I don’t like Orisa. If they counterswap me, I hate having to switch to a play style I find boring. Sometimes it’s after one fight. I could counterswap them, but then it’s just a cycle and we have to eventually swap to the meta tank to bypass the issues. Very grating. No strategy. Enforces the meta even more in a boring way. And I find it kind of insulting that we have this bad balance philosophy right now and some arguments are just about balancing the game better. Come on.
The only monke orisa counter play is evading her afaik. Lame af
Yeah, that’s the lamest part. You can’t be aggressive anymore unless you have full coordination. And you never do so you have to play this slow, attritional game while also avoiding the Orisa.
Yep in 6v6 you could be countered on monkey too but having that synergy with a Zarya or a dva could help you still be successful playing monkey against your counters in a lot of scenarios. Now there's no recourse. Monkey has no way to protect himself against cc or burst damage really.
Yeah, exactly. You could get away with hitting the backline too and playing more flanky. Now supports can just out-heal you or TP/Fade/boop you away.
Winston works in OWL because they have full coordination. When you don’t, and especially when your team doesn’t understand dive (and they especially don’t), he’s really exploitable. Very frustrating.
ah yes. winston. my go to pick in overwatch 1, when the snipers got too oppressive. It was not even remotely surprising that snipers became a problem in overwatch 2. you just don't have the second tank that can focus them anymore.
Frankly I don't understand how anyone could think the game would be better 5v5 - the core group of heroes were designed for like a decade in a 6v6 environment, with 6 heroes on each team. Losing a hero on each team - especially with role restriction now - means that the original group of heroes and how they were carefully balanced at the origination point of the game, all of the factors and fine tuning that went into their kits before OW was a thing, it's just all out the window now. You don't plan on building a house and buy a plan for a 6 bedroom and then build a 5 bedroom house instead. People really don't understand how planning and development of products that interact with each other (like hero kits in this game) function if they think you can change a massive component like 'quantity' and it'll have minimal to no impact. That's just not how things work in anything where the numbers are important; bridges, game balance, car engines, you name it - there's a reason that stuff is measured and weighed and not just eyeballed!
Pretty much this. 5v5 eventually may reach where 6v6 was at but at its core the game was designed and balanced around 6v6 for the longest time.
Its also the reason why people get steamrolled on
they were planned for 6v6 but not for 2-2-2. Most early ow teamcomps you would see around before brig were basically 1-4-1 or 1-3-2, rarely 2 tanks since they were fewer and dps was more enjoyable overall.
Also lol, "carefully balanced" is a huge overstatement, specially for this game, as it has always been poorly managed to this day.
The one thing Frito is forgetting about is this: people do not want to swap. They want to play the hero they like and want to play. It is not better to force people to have to swap. I'm sure Frito and some others like the interaction of being forced to counter pick and such but the majority of players just want to play the hero they like and have fun. Simple as that. People don't want to be forced to swap off the hero they like.
Just don't swap. You're not trying to get in overwatch league, who cares if you're 3 ranks below what you could get? If like rein, just rein do or die.
@@lukasg4807it’s not the ranks. It’s that first of all. The act of losing itself is an immediate downside. Secondly and more importantly how you lose; you,basically get shat on all game and don’t even get to play how you wanted to play. SO WHY PLAY. If I lose a close game where everyone shone then it’s all good. If I lose a game for playing rein and I didn’t get 20 swings in and my shatter got suzu’d how the fuck am I going to enjoy myself
@@t_dappa Just get better at Rein. It's not fun playing someone meta at a middling ability, it's far more fun playing who you want to as well as you can. Every tank is perfectly viable, you just have to figure out how to play them into bad matchups.
@@lukasg4807 the problem is that you’re merely providing a way to derive fun in spite of a faulty game design philosophy. Yes this is how most people play the game believe it or not your idea isn’t brand new. Anyone who still plays overwatch 2 and doesn’t play meta characters knows that they are playing the game to be challenged. But this doesn’t directly address my point which posits that this is not the solution to the problem but rather that the game itself should reward skill expression and characters who have the potential to bring forth skill expression over those that provide a baseline easier value. No genji and tracer should not be broken heroes but they should also not have to lose to kiriko and baptiste simply because these supports are designed to have no downsides.
@@t_dappa yeah, some heroes get too much value just for existing, but my point was just you're not forced to swap. Maybe a torb turret and spamming down a choke is optimal in the situation, but I'm also trying to play an FPS not balloons tower defence.
I wasn't a big fan of Samito at the beginning but after experiencing much of a hell tank season, I wanted to find videos or someone within the community who shared the same frustrations; other than players and a couple of streamers who say "tank is not fun atm" . Most of the them just blow it off or just "accept" that 5v5 is the new normal, again frustrated they just accept the game as it is until I stumbled across Samito's video, he was the outlier. He IS the ONLY content creator who actually made the effort to explain why 6v6 was better for the game compared to 5v5 and for that. Samito has my biggest respect, for continuing to voice our opinions over and over again makes me look forward for a day when the ow devs will realize how important 6v6 was the fundamental aspect of OW and it is what made the game so great in the beginning, to instill it in future seasons.
absolutely
As a support main who’s been playing Overwatch since 2018, I can confirm that there were way more tank players in OW1 and way fewer support players, while it is the exact opposite in OW2. In OW1, 50% of my friends list was tank players. Now, 50% are support lol. Nobody wants to play tank because it’s miserable, myself included.
I just never wanted to be frontline. I was fine as backup tank since I could stay back a bit and see the team. But I definitely won't play OW tank now that I'll always be forced to be up front, which is the lonliest place in OW since all DPS want to run their own way to "help carry them out of silver/gold".
As a tracer player having landed some really skillful and sick pulse bombs in OW2 just seeing them get cleansed by Kiriko was really disheartening and that above all else is probably what made me quit the most.
not baiting enough XD
true i was a tracer otp and hovered around 3900-4100 and i dont play tracer at all right now. It is too difficult to take 1v1s in this game and when you play it right snd kiriko suzus I just give up. I play Sojourn and Echo now.
skillful would mean you baited out or waited for suzu to be used first. skill issue
@@BeckieAmIRiteyou realize a kiriko can hold Suzu indefinitely, or exploit her ult to get it again faster, or bro anything else could happen to stop the pulse. It isn't skill issue he didn't get pulse to kill, it's the fact it's a terrible ultimate that needs desperate buffs
@arbalest327 a guaranteed kill on an ult isn't a bad design. It's the immortalities off a regular ability that are so prevalent that makes it feel bad. And those abilities affect a lot more than tracer. I.E. queen's carnage.
I think the design of two tanks, having those two anchors, makes the game feel more like a team game, especially for the tank role. For the entire team, but especially tank, it creates a natural tendency to turn around more often towards the other anchor point, and naturally, by its very design, encourages more of a team-sense among the players. In OW2, tank feels a lot lonelier, with so much going on behind you that you can't frequently participate in visually.
5v5 is more team-based. Now it's not just encumbant upon the tank to take space. You all need to push up and tank space.
5v5 is more team-based. Now it's not just encumbant upon the tank to take space. You all need to push up and take space.
@@ReaveIdono"Theoretically".. Reality wise tho, it ended up with tank contesting while the other 4 being a deathmatch wild west..
@@crustypaff452 Ummm so the other roles go up and take space by landing their abilities. Landing their abilities will result in death of the enemy team... This is what's supposed to happen in a shooting game.
@@crustypaff452I interpret what you’re saying is that there’s a lack of communication. If the tank is 1v4 the enemy team. Their tank is doing the same thing. That means you’re both trading resources to gain control over space. But someone should go in with the tank anyway.
Lack of communication happened in overwatch as well
Jeff's vision for Overwatch was the correct one. The only reason we're not in a golden age is because of corporate interests. 5v5 never would have been a thing, the game wouldn't be a greed hellscape, and we'd be playing a kickass PVE mode with all our casual friends.
Hey, I don’t think I’m alone when I ask you if we can get more videos like this? More long formed contacts with you speaking your opinion a lot of us agree with exactly what you’re saying and we want to get the word out there we want to hear somebody articulate our thoughts better than we can Thanks for such a long video.
THANK YOU!!
Nothing worse than seeing one-sided videos in favor of "the Pros" experiences vs the "average Joe's". The professional player that seems to go to continuous boot camps to play Overwatch at its professional competitive level for money with a team that's going to cooperate 100% is going to be the determining factor of how my non-pro gameplay experience is to be and making the average Joe's gaming experience a lot worse.
I don't see why there can't be a compromise here. Give the "boomers" what they want. Set up one of the modes to be 6v6. Or, is it too much of a risk to do because the mode may actually be more popular than the current 5v5 state of the game.
Keep it up! Dont stop fighting for 6v6! Overwatch was designed for 6v6! And there would be more tank players if we had more tanks from the start of the game release and more variety in playstyle designs
This is so true. People say 5v5 was necessary because there were so many people queuing for dps. You know what there was also so much of? DPS characters to play. Give us more new tanks in ow1 and see the player count go up.
My Overwatch 2 game ended with the enemies healers get over 30k healing combined. We almost couldn't ever win a fight because they were more optimized in their healing
samito cooked so hard and he was so right here all the way through
The funniest shit is when I pick a tank like Rein or Orisa and my supports pick Mercy and Zen. Then my supports keep blaming me because I keep dying. I then tell them politely to pick at least one support hero that can keep a tank alive and they're like "it's not a support problem, it's just a tank diff". I play in low GM btw. I have no idea how these people have made it to GM. I'm convinced support is the most braindead role and support players are the most braindead players in the game. And I'm never even toxic towards them in-game.
Freedo's trying to land himself a job at Activision Blizzard with how tone deaf he is. 😂
The whole issue with why people got pissy over double tank in my opinion was the double barrier shit. which they basically demolished ( before ramattra ) when they changed orisass kit. Also they have us playing 5v5 on maps that were originally intended for 6v6...
I like your opinion much more when your not getting interrupted constantly. . .
I gotta say, your analysis of the tank and support role are spot on. Nobody wants to play tank because it’s all counter-picking. The other day, I saw that damage queue times were about 3 times longer than the other roles, and I knew there was a big problem. Supports were never designed for a 5v5 environment, so they are way too strong, and tanks are forced into a rock paper scissor play style. I love the fundamentals of this game but man is their design ever flawed
So it seems that the general takeaway is this: "5v5 is better, because now there's more counter potential for an individual player. The tank role has been pretty much shafted entirely to get to this point, so the other 4 players can do whatever they want now. But that's fine, because tank players make up the far minority of the playerbase anyways."
Yes support and dps feel a lot better to play now there aren’t two tanks dominating the match…some of the counters are annoying but I can actually play the game even when I’m losing. Overall much better experience for the average player.
Sam brings up the casual player when it benefits his point but other than that usually forgets we exist
@@mastergroob4843 I mean, the game 'feels' much better to play as DPS and Support because the game has gotten a lot easier for those roles. It sounds kind of bad but it's true. Overpowering a single tank is pretty easy even as a single DPS. Misstakes won't get punished nearly as much, and there is a lot more room for incredibly easy, no-skill value. The main thing is that 5v5 is absolutely miserable to play for the Tank, and queue times tell the same story as even with only a single Tank required to fill a match, queue times are still vastly longer for the other roles, like they were in 6v6. The game is out of your hands as a Tank player, and all you are there to do is to hold up a shield or to stand on point and eat as much damage and CC as you can before you inevitably die. Right now, the game wouldn't be much different if you had a 'veteran' difficulty bot on each team as a Tank.
@@dark_matter8420 couldn’t disagree more 🤷♂️ I have a lot of fun playing tank still
@@mastergroob4843 Then I deeply envy you, because for me (and it seems a lot of other tank players), the role has basically died. All the fun heroes aren't viable, and instead I'm forced to play Orisa and survive infinitely on point while my team gets to play the game. I mained Sigma and Ball to GM in season 2, but now I hardly play Tank at all anymore. It's incredibly boring, oppressive and just generally not fun. The role is incredibly one-dimensional and lost all nuance.
@@dark_matter8420 yeah I'm a little more casual, my highest role is masters support but I mess around in tank and dps and have fun. At higher ranks I can definitely see it being less enjoyable.
As you were talking around 25:45 about the super tanks being less interactable - spot on.
In ow1, as a reaper/sym/soldier/torb, almost every dps and some supports, a character like dva was fodder in a 1v1 in metal because her damage was low. If she was midrange on her own, she lost.
Now, she would get me with her tuning up, or simply be bailed by a kiriko tp and cleanse, buffed mercies, or lifeweaver/illari appearing from nowhere.
When every support has immorts and stupid high movement, and often good damage now, playing dps is unsatisfying. The only good matchups are dps vs dps, because supports can bail themselves out in most situations, they can bail out tanks (which are unkillable until they are alone and their supports are dead) so the only killable people are other DPS without pockets.
Freedo loves anything blizzard does. Anything.
idk about that one LOL
For real
@@SamitoFPS ok ok ok ok not ANYTHING 😅
52:38 Yeah, as a Bronze 1 player, when my tank doesn't feel like playing that game it's really frustrating because there is just nothing I can do to make up for their lack of performance. In 6v6 if one of the tanks decides he doesn't want to play, the other tank could at least go super hard and we might have a chance.
12:16 - This hits it. A game in which the hero select screen has such an impact on wins and losses isn't a legitimate game.
Damn (45:36) “playing tank at the average tier of play and playing tank at the top tiers of play the gap is much shallower”. I would never have thought to hear this coming from freedo. Who wants to play a role we’re the bronze player and the master players skill is the same or closer to each other. I remember hearing this man say that a bigger skill gap for a competitive game the better.
As a masters/gm tank (Now mid dia because I despise the ow2 ranked system), Tank was doing just fine in ow1, when there was only a couple situations in which I could be completely erased from a game that were outside of my own performance, but now with tank rock paper scissors, every support being able to outheal your dmg unless you dps try to work with you (they usually don't), and all of the hotpicks that can erase tanks from the game, like som/cass/ana every single time I try to play ball, who used to be my favorite tank in the game, but now feels like absolute shit to play because I just either do enough to deadlift the game, or I just get countered into oblivion, there is never any in between. There is no worse feeling than getting counterpicked just when you were doing so well on tank, and then the enemy tank just starts doing nothing but counterpicking, swapping their pick around you over and over and over, its what Someone on the Florida Mayhem abused to win the season, and I do not respect it in any way, and has ruined tank play for everyone no matter what rank.
It’s funny I love Frito, but I think you are 100% on point with what you are saying. You spell it out very clearly, and make very relevant points. I go through small phases where I’m like, I should try playing tank, then immediately realize nah, I have WAY more fun playing dps or support! Even though I wouldn’t have been able to put my finger on it, but you explained the reasons why!
I miss old orisa, now she might as well be a different character entirely :(
Though I will say I do see why she had to be changed, but this new one is oppressive to say the least
Even though Orissa was boring to play at times, that's what made picking here fun. It may seem odd, but she was a change of pace when my Rein or Ball wasn't working. Thats what made tanks fun, you dropped into a room and majority of the time it was the other tank that had the Mic and you would ask them what tank they're playing. Wether they were a main tank, Hog one trick, or an off tank main you had yourself a partner who would work by your side. Then when you'd get that road hog one trick and you said you'll play Orissa and he'd be happy like a pig in slop.
I think you guys are finally realizing how much importance the depth loss has. I ve been calling it pretty much since the night they announced 5v5. I have been hating playing 5v5 the all time and screaming about how dumb it is, but finally you are getting there… Jesus I am happy you guys are catching on, thx Sam. Finally I am hearing some words like « 1 dimensional » « people don’t like that you make it all simple for them » and so on. Who knows, maybe overwatch will one day be the game it was destined to be, the greatest.
But L it lost to fortnite Ratio LLLL 💀💀💀🤡😱😱🥵
The ''we did not have the players'' claim made me audibly go ''WHAT!''. Such an absurd argument. Overwatch at it's PEAK was one of the most popular games of that whole era. It was a phenomenon even when it wasn't F2P. I swear, Freedo loves the sound of his own voice so much that he constantly waltzes himself into making insane, logically inconsistent, bad faith arguments without ever realizing it. It's either that, or he knows it's all bs and doesn't care because ya boy has got to get paid.
If OW1 kept getting updates, content and balance patches, we'd never happen upon this 5v5 concept at all. They killed their own game, then pretended like the format was the issue. Abandoning the game in a terrible state did it. OW2 devs have always had serious problems with identifying the underlying issues with their games balance which is precisely why people constantly ask themselves: ''Do they even play their own game?''.
5v5 killed both tank and dps:
1- Tanks are not fun anymore because you get counter picked right after the first fight and like you said they are 1 dimensional
2- dps a lot of the time feel underwhelming and can barely compete with support and tank for kills.
I swapped from dps to illari lol. Facts
Thank you Samito, keep up the 6v6 fight! I can only hope they bring back OW1, and just leave it as is, adding new characters just make more problems than they solve
I hadn't played with another tank on my team since OW1, and recently went into an open queue match with another tank player. It's 1000% more fun to tank with 2 tanks, even with the nerfed tank stats in open queue.
it’s crazy looking back on this video and seeing how wrong freedo was. everything he said either didn’t come true or was 10x worse than what he made it out to seem like counter picking. i think sam’s right i think if we don’t get 6v6 in the next year this game is cooked
its even crazier because sam has been CONSISTANT with all his points even after 8 months of posting this vid
the power creep pushed the TTK
Great video! I was liking 5v5 at the beginning because it was something different. I started climbing up the ranks for the first time on PC and then tanks just stopped trying it feels like. Now almost every game I get a doom fist on my team when no one else on the team are on dive characters and we just get rolled. Had my worst loss streak on DPS in my entire time playing PC this season where I fell from low plat/high gold all the way to mid silver and yet I que support and climb to plat in 1 session. This tank 5v5 lottery ticket is making DPS unplayable for the ranks that your overwatch is trying to advocate for and since they paused new heros for DPS it just feels like the roll in low to mid ranks are just falling further and further behind. I am now forced in low ranks to play junkrat and bastion so I can try to overwhelm the enemy with damage before my tank gets picked every single fight and since there is not a second tank in the game 9 times out of 10 we just get rolled because doom went in too far.
Overwatch was best in it's first year, when immortality & oneshots were ULTIAMTE abilities, NOT cooldown abilities. It made the game pretty forgiving/casual friendly at low elos (where players don't earn their ult very often, so they didn't have to deal with oneshots/immortality very often), while being appropriately punishing at high elos (where players are much faster at farming ult charge, so they had to deal with more frequent (but not _too_ frequent) big bursts of damage/sustain).
Immortality & one-shot kills also feel much less frustrating to play against when they're restricted to ultimates, since ults are so heavily telegraphed that they're easy to plan around _and_ they normally give players a fair window of time to react.
one person dies, fight is over. thats 5v5
i was a tank player in OW1 and synergy with your other tank was part of what kept me on the ga,me. I haven't even touched OW2 and i played OW1 since launch
Dude please keep fighting for 6v6. Im literally just waiting for it to come back. I stopped playing when 5v5 came out.
Fr 5v5 is horrible
it's never coming back sadly. Worst part is if they nerfed AOE heals back in 6v6 the game would be saved lol
I have played tank in top 500 for 7 years and it is the worst it's ever been, I even have swapped to dps now because of it.
Great and informative content, thanks Samito!
The "getting value on the flank" in question: "tracer sitting behind a corner getting chased because she can't kill the support duo, and they can pop her instantly"
I saw someone saying 6v6 feels like chess while 5v5 feels like rock paper scisors (don't know how to spell that english is not my primary language)
And this is why I keep saying Overwatch 2 feels more like Overwatch Lite edition. We had more combinations of tanks to play with instead of this lite version. And another bit factor having one tank is when you get for example a countered doomfist in the team that refuse to swap it drags down his entire team because of it. 5V5 is a mistake and should never had happened.
And what even pissed me off the most is that the OW devs didn't communicate about this change. Instead they changed it a month or so for release and said trust us, you gonna love it.
I feel like we spend more time complaining about the game than actually playing the game. That is definitely something new with overwatch 2
Bro, I paid for 6v6. Literally enjoyed that game, bought it multiple times, convinced friends to get it. I uninstalled 2, it's butt. I just hate that they took away the version I enjoyed (which I actually think is one of the best team based competitive shooters ever) with this subpar version of that same game, which only changes make it more annoying and less than the previous version which was taken from me and many other people.
and yes I preferred the tank synergy style gameplay, which is why I bought that game. I and many others paid for a teamplay heavy competitive shooter, for all of the faults that would bring, I really enjoyed it. I really dislike 5v5 and find it to not be fun at all.
52:35 "I will take rock paper scizors over scizors paper rock"
Support always has been and always will be the most powerful role in overwatch
@@kassandraofodyssey6475 except every wire detonates the device xD
Factually false, a tank has single handedly a third of the team’s ressources…
But you could argue it is unfair that one support can go brig and you have 2 tanks against one, that I would agree with.
@@basilenordmann7356 no, a tank would have a fifth of a team's resources, similarly to how a support would have a fifth of the teams resources and how a DPS would have a fifth of the teams resources, but I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about how the support role disproportionately affects the overall game more than any other role
@@fadetoblackened4407 Well yes but a tank has 500 hp, and shields/overhealth/speedboosts (wich makes you dodge bullets + travel through defended space).
It by definition makes them have more ressources than any other rôle. Support have also very *potentially* high resources, with the condition that somebody is in the situation where your refueling/lifesaving extra ressource, is appropriate and deliverable. Dps just have higher kill potential, but lower resources than the rest of the field. Does that makes them weaker? No, only in the times where kill potential is neglected by too high hp bars to be able to secure a kill, or when mobility makes the people you are trying to kill out of your reach. Is support op because they can generate extra resources? Well, as long as they are not guaranteed of it, and not overprotected against being killed, no. Does having straight up a third of the team's resources at your disposal on the press of a button makes tank better than the rest of roles? Yes, no question about it. And supports rarely define metas, as a result. The only exception so far was this winston meta that was defined by brig's brokeness and the inability of junkerqueen to jump on highrounds. Other than that, it's all tank. Always has been.
I'm a metal rank and almost every comp game goes like this Mercy, bap or illari heal bot the orisa that just kills everything and if she dies mercy resurrects her. two tanks also gave supports more to focus on and led to more windows of opportunity.
The only way 6v6 could work, is if they broke the roles into a 1,1,2,2, Main tank role, off tank role, 2 dps, 2 supports. This means that you would have to split tanks into two roles, and do some balancing.
Not really, they reworked Orisa, they nerfed Shields across all heroes and many other heroes like Mauga could easily deal with shields.
You could even just enable a Passive that reduced everyones Shield HP by 25% if you have 2 Shield Tanks.
There are many ways to fix 2x Shield the devs just didnt give a fuck, and i for one im extremly mad about it because 5v5 is actually horrible compared to 6v6.
People would literally just run rein sig all day and mauga does not apply his crit damage to shields. Rein sig would be aids, not to mention sig counters mauga. @@heiko2255
10:20 I find it fucking hilarious how Sam mentions junkerqueen and my brain immediately went to the fact that JUNKERqueen is one of the worst tanks for JUNKERtown
Can’t wait for the second tank to come back behind a paywall that comes back every game
I used to be a tank and even scrimmed on a team as a tank. I very quickly swapped roles to support and we've rotated tanks like 2-3 times since. They never last and if they arent good then our team is gg
I am a tank players with over 1000 hours tanking in Overwatch Original. I refuse to tank in what Overwatch has become. It is no longer playing a role, it's swapping when needed to fulfill a need of counter swapping on demand.
I feel like when your overwatch is referring to "the average player" he's talking about top 500 because as someone who played all the roles between silver and diamond depending on fluctuations during the dead years of overwatch 1 or 'the average level' he is on crack he is wrong about everything everytime he says "this is how the average player feels" or "this is the average player experience" it is the exact opposite.
I'll be honest. The "Double Shield" that everyone keeps complaining about, from OW1, was a non-issue in the metal ranks because most people didn't play it & continued to play Rein/Zarya, most of the time.
The biggest problem that plagued OW1 was the chain stuns/stun stacking onto a single player.
That single issue was brought up by Support players, Tank players, & even DPS players.
But playing as a tank is where you would feel the chain stuns the most, since you have to be positioned between the enemies & teammates most of the time.
Many players are looking at OW1 with rose-tinted glasses, but at the same time, that misremembered feeling of OW1 is skewing everyone's perception of what truly made, not just tanking unfun to play, but also any other role.
Role Queue with Stun Stacking.
==================================
In Open Queue, there wasn't a guarantee that the enemy team would play a comp with multiple stuns on the team, since most random group of players don't know how to synergize different types of abilities.
But Role Queue took that complexity of using your brain a bit, filtering out those types of players that just autopilot, and forced players into the 2-2-2 format, where they are guaranteed a higher chance of ending up with a team comp with multiple stuns to chain a single enemy with.
Tired of double shield argument, I quit the game when double shield came out but when I played after a year it was counterable. It was an insufferable comp but to act like you were unable to play the game is complete bullshit
I think with the tank changes for ow 2, if they implement that in 6v6, that double shield meta wont even be a thing.
Bingo I think you would see a return to hogs hitting off angles and jq being more of a back line demon I think many of the problems wouldn’t be there, besides support would need extreme nerfing. But you never know endless the devs would let us get our hands on 6v6
Casual player but halfway decent (upper plat-low diamond tank) and I can remember seasons playing monkey/zarya with a buddy and that being some of the most fun and synergistic gameplay of all. Many seasons I had a 6 stack during Covid and the double tank comps we could play were the best part of the game. I loved tank- I queued several hundred hours and I really felt like I could be effective and win games. In Overwatch 2 that feeling has been completely gutted and all my friends have since abandoned the game. It’s really tragic and the argument that “only a few hundred players are actualizing synergy…” is complete bs- you don’t have to reach peak actualization for it to be fun. Even rein/zar in gold was consistently a more fun experience. No doubt about it 6v6 was better for the casual player.
Another point- to the “my other tank has picked a bad tank for this comp/map” as a casual player but somehow who had spent some time learning- I could run a horse down main if my other tank was way off in the back line getting torn to shreds and because I was good at horse we could stand a chance. If my rein was running off leaving his back line I could run a hog or a dva/monkey and swat the genji/tracer in my back line. I don’t have that freedom as a tank player anymore. If I’m running rein or zar and the other guy is better than me at brawling or his supports are just better- whelp- guess we’re losing this one boys. There’s little I can do- like I need more synergy from my team to sway a game than I did as tank in OW1. I agree entirely Samito- they turned the casual player from tank. I’d also agree now for the casual player 80% of the time your tank is a doom one trick or someone queing all roles for the challenges. This means most of the time you don’t have someone who enjoys tank and is trying as your tank player so it leads to getting rolled often. When tank was fun and had dedicated players the chance you got competent tanks and therefore a fun match in quick play was so much higher.
Last point I’ll make- to some degree it’s an insult to me they have to make the tanks easier. Do you think I’m too stupid to figure out that walking at hog as rein is not going to get me far? Or standing far away in an open field against snipers will get me killed? The average player isn’t a complete idiot and this design for scooptydoo tank have lot health and cool never die abilities and giga healing that takes no brain and no plan is an insult. I used to be able to make intelligent decisions that mattered- and my opponents were doing this too. Mind you there were bad players but this was in gold most the time- the average person isn’t dumb. If this is what blizzard thinks designing accessibility to the average person looks like I think they’ve incredibly misrepresented the average person in their minds.
“Don’t like the stress of solo tanking” that’s honestly my whole argument.
I agree with Sam 100%. Im just a casual player and In OW1 i was a rein main, i loved working with another tank especially to help pick up where i was slacking like peeling or dealing with snipers or pharah.
But in OW2 i hate playing tank because if we are losing it feels like automatically ppl blame the tank. And when 1 or 2 characters are soooo OP it makes it way too hard to deal with then. And when one is a tank it greatly reduces the charcuterie that are viable. So swapped to dps main and much happier now.
All they needed to do was nerf shields and CC they didn't need to gigabuff tanks and remove a player.
I just want to play ball in 6v6 again. It was so much fun.
LMFAOOOOO I love Freedo and he’s the only OW guy I’ve watched consistently since the game came out, but you’re 100% right. That copium has been STRONG😭
the best part of this was going to the original video and seeing ALL of the comments disagree with him
10:40 exactly this, it's what lead to me not only quitting tank, but playing the game. I coach it but I cannot bring myself to suffer this game anymore and it hurts. This being only one symptom, if I want to maximize valu then I have to play slow until there's opportunity or a big enough mistake to go fast, which depends on follow-up. Often something that doesn't happen due to people having to be afraid and respectful of the enemy team in 5v5 because one less tank to mitigate mistakes
53:30 freedo saying he's had so many moments in OW1 where he thought about quitting. I've thought of quitting a total of 3 times during the entirety of OW1. I have actually quit in OW because my main role isn't fun. The fun has been optimized out or so heavily structured in everyone else's favor that what I can accomplish to team fights is: don't die, stop your team from dying, and occasionally stop their team from keeping their team from not dying. Incredible. And I have to do all that while being counter swapped so fun is optimized out
I think the main issue with Freedos argument is that he is purely talking about the topic from a high level player that plays to win first and have fun second, the main issue with only one tank in the game is that it makes the game less fun for most people, and that is the absolute worst trait a video game can have.
The rock paper scissors problem hurts my experience so much. I love winston in ow1 but in ow2 everytime i play after first team fight i get hard countered by then swapping and i cant play my favorite charcter.
It’s more work to fix the 5v5 issues than to re-add 6v6. This is the first Blizzard game I’ve really loved to this level, but in time I’ve grown to understand that Blizzard does not take criticism well. They rarely make the changes that the game need.
They could have patched double barrier in 2 seconds if they added a passive where if you have two barrier tanks the each barrier has 50% less health
100% agree supports have ruined the tank role.
Supports fundamentally, originally did 2 things. Heal and Buff/Debuff.
Tanks fundamentally took/controlled space and PROTECTED the team. Main tanks with shields dives with peeling… and matrixes.
But there are only a finite number if buffs/debuffs to use with out them becoming redundant. So protecting spilled over to support. That’s why we have lamp, pull, suzu, even sleep dart. As support abilities. All while continuing to buff and over buff their healing and self sustainability.
And shifted tanks from protectors to battering rams.
Mauga would not have been such a big shakeup on release in 6v6 vs 5v5, and I think that applies to all new heros being added that not everyone has access to without paying.
Wow, Sam be spitting the fires of hard truth. I wish they'd throw 6v6 in arcade and see how much more fun it is.
I was a casual tank player in overwatch 1 and absolutely loved playing Zarya. Zarya is great in overwatch 2. She unfortunately is not great on her own. Whenever I encounter a Zarya mirror match, the best Zarya will always be the one with the better supports keeping her alive. I rarely play tank in overwatch 2 now.
I played rein till the end and I still miss when shatter actually mattered
In a post Mauga release world, this video was hilarious.
If you say Tank is better in 5v5, you’re objectively wrong.
As a Dva main, in OW1 my other tank could go Monkey/Zarya/Sigma to help me against the inevitable Zarya tank but now I’m borderline throwing the second the enemy tank swaps to Zarya and has more than room temperature IQ. It’s annoying af.
Thanks for talking about this. Just having less pressure as a tank made it so much more fun to play. Arguably that should be more important for the casual group. Personally 5v5 basically eliminates an entire role I'd want to play.
I usually enjoy Freedo's videos, but I disagreed with most of his points.
11:45 - 12:10 truer words were never spoken
I loved playing main tank in 6v6. The issue in 5v5 is all the abilities are used on you. If you are doing tank well, you will be CC'd, debuffed, displaced, and focused - especially if the enemy team has a zen in the background.
It isn't fun to be the middle of all the unfun parts of the game. And if you are getting messed up from that, your team flames you. So you have both all the unfun gameplay and the unfun socials.
Was GM for most of OW1 rolling with my other tank friend and diving backlines together, role Q made me play way less and less. 5v5 made me completely quit
Bro actually said Your OW is one of his favorite YT channels LMFAO
Tanks have always been dps with higher health pools and with 5v5 blizz decided they needed to do the job of two tanks in one. With 2 dps and a raid boss running the then glass cannon healers were upset and so made many immortal. Which is where we are currently. The worst periods of the game have always been the ones where killing seemed impossible. 5v5 or 6v6 doesn't matter as much as removing immortality and finding a reasonable balance of healing/damage per second and the health pools. I do know one thing for sure, in overwatch 1 killing healers or an overextended dps first was a good suggestion, in overwatch 2 killing dps first is the only possible option without bastion or sniper.
The maps feel less cluttered with one less tank which was usually a very large character- overall it seems more cleaner imo