The Modern Battle Rifle Concept
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- Опубліковано 28 сер 2024
- 308 as a fighting rifle, AKA the Battle Rifle.
Does it make sense for civilians? Or is the BR a Reddit Meme Setup that just needs to die.
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Some corrections.
-308 BR doesn't deflect wind nearly as much as I thought. It's probably mostly placebo. Functionally, it's very similar to 556 precision loads.
-It seems Modern, at least according to some comments, 6.5 CM barrels when comparing apples to apples to 308 (same barrel material) is very similar.
Most of my experience was on a rental range many years ago. Where the 6.5cm didn't last long at all. And numerous friends burned their 6.5cm semi autos pretty fast. This is probably due to most 308 barrels being chrome lined, while most 6.5cm I've experienced are SS. Or maybe, once again, improper/unfair remembering of anecdotes. Who knows.
But perhaps take that segment with a grain of salt. I'm not confident in my position there either way.
6.5 creed vs .308 barrel wear can be more closely attributed to the case capacity vs bore size, actually. Everytime you shoot, you have some powder that is unburnt exit the case and continue down to burn in the barrel itself, that powder effectiveness acts like a super heated, super pressured sand blaster, blasting your barrels throat everytime you fire. You can get an idea of this by basically comparing the volume of the case to the equivalent volume of bore it takes to match that. In short, 6.5 creed has almost identical case capacity to .308, but a smaller bore, so more powder ends up burning in the throat of the barrel. To take it even further, its why stuff like .22-250 or .220 Swift absolutely melt barrels, despite being fairly close to 5.56 in pressure and obviously a similar bore.
Anecdotally, you don't really see 6.5 Grendel barrels getting shot out compared to 6.5 creed, because Grendels case capacity is so much lower, even if you hotrod tf out of it to get close to 6.5 Creed performance. But then again who's shooting that much Grendel. Chrome lined vs stainless still makes a big impact too.
Consider a 12.5 build shooting hotrod .308. This is a bottom of the rabbit hole build, but you can be very effective out to 5/600, the weight penalty is lessened enough to allow you to run a can/light/maybe laser. The magic sauce here is in the buffer and adjustable gas. Lethality is best achieved with tipped or hollow point rounds. Such a rifle achieves a very specific use case with LE/MIL that overlaps with civ usage. This build is very much roll-your-own, but brings you in line with the SPEAR school of thought. Should you be facing armored opposition, it may not defeat said armor, but it will sit the wearer down for a moment of personal reflection.
If you use 175 gr SMK and it still holds true vs 77 gr mk262. .308 precision rounds are still superior to 5.56, not just in range (like 1400 meters vs 800) but external and terminal ballistics. Yes, terminal ballistics do matter at extended range. People get shot and don't even realize it... Adrenaline is a hell of a drug.
6.5 burns barrels at almost twice the rate of .308 regardless of barrel material. Whether or not that’s a concern to you depends
Does QPQing a SS barrel extend the length in any way that would make it worth it?
ALSO, you can get a MTM trigger module for the SCAR that uses standard .308 mags.
I didn’t set up a 308 BR because it’s practical. I did it because it made me feel good.
Preach brother.
The main reason the vast majority of us do what we do lol
I did it because I wanna vibe check someone's plates 😅
My HK MR762 giggled when it heard that joke.
@@BigJeezieDon't brag. I'm jealous.
Brass Facts: _"You don't really need a Battle Rifle."_
Me: _"I'm going to pretend I didn't see that."_
Heh I cant read so it doesn't apply to me
I went for the heaviest battle rifle (LMT) because everyone will eventually run out of ammo when the terminators take over and it makes the best melee weapon in its class.
Dd5 & T7 here😅
LMT Zweihander lol
@@armstrong2052 very nice sticks! Never messed with the DD but had a Scar. I miss it.
@@DTreatz YES!
@@rejectmodernity1756 I'd like an LMT grenade launcher someday, one of my favorite manufacturers.
If loving the .308 is wrong, then I don’t want to be right.
My .308 Saiga has been there for me emotionally way more than my "family" 🙄
The ability to defeat barriers or lightly armored zombies can't be overlooked.
Don't forget the deer that wear body armor.
@@TheJeremyKentBGross "Bambo isn't real, he can't hurt you."
I think most people forget US military switched from .45 to 9mm and from .308 to 5.56 because of the doctrine change from controlled pairs to overwhelming fire. An most preppers couldn't sustain that directive
Whats controlled pairs?
@@JazzerciseJustice 2 shots, then see what happens
@@JazzerciseJustice it was called double tap at one time. basically it means anything worth shooting once is worth shooting twice. But the blleding hearts thought that it was killing wounded combatants. IMHO
@@martinbaumgardner4432a double tap is a different thing. It’s when you fire two shots fast enough that it’s one sight picture. A controlled pair is two shots slow enough that the second one happens after you wait for the gun to come back to a rest.
@@MylesKillis ugh no not right
Bren 2: mentioned
Neuron: **ACTIVATED**
Cz ooga booga!
Lost patience on that , SCAR is fantastic if you factor the rail and trigger into the budget. 😂
Rumor from TFB is that the bren2 PPS is coming. But that is still up in the air.. like sr71 in the the air.
@@JohnZ556 I’d rather pay 1/2 the price for a gun that has a cheaper aftermarket rail I have to replace
Seriously, europe is allergic to long rails apparently
@@AhHereWeGo@AhHereWeGo Sure, but the problem is that it won't be 1/2 the price, and it doesn't even exist.
Plus, I'm kind of afraid CZ would screw the US version as they did to the Bren2 Carbine,that thick barrel wasn't even that accurate from my testing. I'd rather get an LMT 16" DI for that kind of money and weight, at least it will be more accurate and easier to find parts for a GPR or DMR anyways.
But I love the Bren2 11" 5.56 SBR, and I have been very happy since the NRCH version of the SCAR came out, good luck to y'all still waiting on the Bren2 PPS!😉
As a guy who lives out in Idaho a 308 battle rifle is my do all rifle. It can take the large game that fills the forests and mountains, it bucks wind much better and for close range has consitant internal balistics. Sure I cant carry more ammo but if Im being honest In reality if I want to stay alive the uses for my rifle will want to be 9 out of 10 times hunting. Yes a full loadout is heavy but if Im being honest I cant see too many scenarios in my personal case where I would be full kit and a bag patroling or walking through the woods or up and down mountains. And a 308 dedicated chest rig isnt anything too crazy unless your a really big or really small individual. If I was going full battle rattle Im most likely stationary or hopefully have a vehicle and or staging area. But then we start becoming the what if brigade, why I am running around in full battle rattle in the woods again? And if I make a bunch of bad choices or events put me in a position to have to fight I dont feel like Im losing too much capability in terms of fast follow up shots and maneuverability.
Aye, my thought process was similar. 5.56 is a great warfighter, but I'm not a warfighter. I need a rifle that gives me options, bag a deer, dussuade a truck, go through a thicker wall (without exotic ammo flavors), dissuade a roaming warband. The camp of thought for me is: if I'm in a position that I'm sweating round count I screwed up long before I got in that position. Ideally I'd like something in-between but there's no support for anything there. I'm concerned I'm going to end up using shotgun more as it gives me even more options. My reassurance (copium) is that if change my mind to go intermediate there'll be enough that aren't too hard to find if it gets that bad.
Edit, thought of this shortly after: Another big thing I got going for me to choose big bullet, I have a group that all run more traditional kits. My choice to go more exotic gives the group more flexibility.
I considered that, as I like to hunt as well. However, I came to the conclusion that I would be forcing one rifle to do two roles, neither of which it's that great at. A auto loading, magazine fed .308 is going to be bulky, and heavy, making it an absolute pain in the ass to lug around in the woods when you're trying to be quiet. In the fighting rifle role, again it's heavy, and you can only carry half the ammo. I think it's better to have a dedicated hunting rifle, and fighting rifle than to force one gun to do both. If you're hunting for survival in some SHTF sitiation, unless its winter, you're not going to be able to utilize all the meat from a large game animal before it spoils, so you're better off taking smaller game if possible, which a .308 will oblitarate.
Valid. Some people in the east/middle don't have a good conceptualization of how open it is out that way. The two mule deer ive shot were initially spotted at 1.2 and 1.5 miles. Ive shot nearly 70 whitetails. My furthest shots were 300-350 yards with most being within 50 yards or closer the first time I even spotted them. A 556 is all but worthless once you get a few hours west of the crosstimbers.
@@ArchangelsSword valid critiques. However, in many cases, people have families too. One big kill on game could be a good source of nutrition for many weeks. Whereas small game, while easier to dispatch present an issue of consistent kills to provide the nutrition needed for the family, and especially the hunter who's now expected to find, dispatch and recover many more animals. Having an ar10 type rifle, an AR15, and a 10/22sbr seems like the best reality. We should all get over the idea of a single do all rifle. Sometimes, you just need more tools in the toolbox, because the jobs change.
@@thunderchild1897 Well, unless you are fighting a war or in a group, a stock, optic and experience should be enough for most real life scenarios anyway.
Head over to the @thenovagroup2 (type it in)
To get more Brass Facts today. Just dropped a Credo 1-6x SFP review over there.
I've always been a fan of the BR concept because I always imagined SHTF having a lot to do with vehicles. Being able to punch through vehicles and simultaneously stay further away from whatever nasty surprises are in them makes a lot of sense in my mind. That being said I have never pursued this concept because I would like to eat something other than ramen.
More food for though on SHTF, I'd bet a good number people running all these "special threat" plates that have gotten fairly popular are going to get a nasty surprise when they find out .308 isn't exactly a rare round in the US. Not to mention it is a far better round for larger animals, and securing food is a boring but exceedingly important aspect of living.
@@GhostlyTurtle mfw you're walking around in your $10,000 kit and you get vibe checked by some fudd with his .300 Win Mag hunting rifle.
@@ArchangelsSword Bubba’s spicy-hot .270 hand loads
@@GhostlyTurtleMy thoughts as well. Most plates out there are only rated for intermediate calibers; full rifle calibers have more than twice the energy.
With the number of hunting rifles out there, it's likely that you will be facing full-on rifle calibers and your level III plate probably isn't going to do you a whole lot of good.
This is a great reason to look towards 308. However, M855A1 does a better job at steel and concrete penetration than M80 ball. If you can spend some funds for a combat load or two of M855A1 to keep for bad times. Now, M80A1 does better than M855A1 so there’s that. But M80A1 is much harder to source than M855A1.
I bought 11k rounds of 762x51 PPU both 168gr and 140gr PPU in the plain white 20rnd boxes from Rural King last summer when they were clearencing it out for $8.99 a box..... that was an expensive but very fulfilling deal.
Holy crap I can't believe I missed that! I do love PPU.
Man singlehandedly shifted the market with that purchase
Was that the Rural King over in Charlottesville, Virginia?
@@jakesoros2376 no in IL. Ruralking has like 115 stores in 15 states now I think
@@cvillefarmer Epic. Congrats on that heck of a deal you got!
Couldn't imagine seeing 7.62x51 go for $8.99 a box around here.
That moment my .308 bros and I watch the entire video for validation for a purchase, yet willing to challenge our paradigm of .308 gigabit Chad culture.
308 giga chad lmao
One thing I've been thinking about is cheap .308 and 6.5 creedmoor bolt guns. For a few hundred bucks, we can get a reliable and accurate gun that fills most of the gap from 5.56. For having easy 600 yd capability in a car or staging area, a light-weight, cheap bolt gun seems kind of nice.
Edited for typos
308 is capable beyond 1,000 yards too kill
Bolt guns are excellent if you already have the close range capability covered by others in your team. HOWEVER, since the point of a bolt gun is that 500-1000 yard distance, you need excellent glass. It isn't a "couple hundred bucks" for the set up
Guys who type "just lift more bruh" in the comments section regarding rifles that are excessively heavy are guys who've never rucked 12 miles with a full combat load and weapon.
I don’t have combat experience but as an avid backpacker of 30 years I subscribe to the same philosophy. Sure, I can lug a 50-60 lb pack 200 miles over the course of a week but it’s so much better to choose the right gear and leave the shit behind you don’t absolutely need. Not only does it make the trip more enjoyable, you’re less likely to injure yourself.
I carried a SAW, minesweeper, and LAW overseas. An AR-10 and full battle rattle is light in comparison. When people get butt hurt because others say they should just lift more, it's most likely because they know they should.
@@Andrew85oras someone who has to carry a 35lb JTWS with all of the 5590s for it, a Panasonic ToughBook, a Harris Falcon 3 with all of 2590s for it, plus my combat load and my actual sustainment pack, it's retarded to act like carrying more weight is smart. There's a reason us guys who actually work with the Teams ride on M-Razors to infil. It's foolish to act like carrying more weight on person is smart for any scenario.
You're not a tough guy by acting like disabling your ability to break contact is "alpha".
@@SeanMurphy00 from an Army standpoint, it helps prevent injury both in the short and long term, and it helps under fire because we're able to break contact if need be. "Too heavy to run" is a real thing, and the last thing you want is to be out-maneuvered by dudes in flip-flops with 3 mags and a PKM because you brought the whole conex box with you. Even our RECCE/Scout Platoon teams on both SOF and Conventional forces side either use ATVs and M-Razors, or just don't carry a ton of weight. You can't win a gunfight when you can't move
tbf to the "suck it up" crowd, plenty of scrawny US conscripts did just fine with the M1 and M14.
Until recently, the Portuguese military was still using G3’s with Aimpoints effectively in combat and Sweden has updated their G3’s with improved stocks and modular hand guards for their home guard.
Biased as I might be as a swede, I still think it makes a lot of sense keeping the G3 updated for stuff like the home guard. A lot if the negatives (weight, ammo capacity, maneuverability, etc) mostly goes null in the intended usage scenario there, where you're mostly just expected to hold established positions rather than pushing into new ones.
The Portuguese military is severely underfunded (lots of folks were still rocking irons) and should not be looked at as an example of what to do gear-wise.
@@nawm8 contrarily, one could also argue that you don’t need the latest and greatest high speed/low drag gear to equip an effective fighting force. Knowing how to use irons or fight without whiz-bang farkles is beneficial when high tech gear shits the bed.
I like my 308 rifles, but so too for my 5.56 guns. Talking about the last wars we fought, soldiers feeling out classed in Afghanistan at longer ranges with their M4s And bringing back the M14 and SCAR H use, along with adoption of the XM7 should indicate there is good reasons to have a battle rifle in your collection.
Another tool in toolbox. Most of the time lighter calibers will get it done, but sometimes you just need to reach out and touch something.
If I'm looking at the mindset regarding modern combat equipment, people are going to be shifting even further from battle rifles in the coming future. For most of the 2000-2020s kits stateside reflected what US forces were running with in Iraq and Afghanistan where supply/support was readily available and abundant (only bare essentials, sometimes 4 mags instead of six, micro kits, minimal sustainment gear, etc). Now we're seeing a huge shift towards sustainment with what we've observed in the Ukraine/Israel war where supply may not be possible for a good amount of time due to contested airspaces/territory etc. Personally I think we should have always been focusing on sustainment as none of us stateside has the supply chain of the US Military but we eventually got there as a community it seems. My point being, with sustainment gear and more equipment we're definitely going to see people trying to shed weight where they can and I think people will 9/10 times will choose the rifle that they can carry more ammo for, is less expensive, has more readily available replacement parts and weighs less overall as a complete package. If you've got a huge group of people sure, maybe somebody has a battle rifle as a DM but I think an SPR would still be a better choice in that role.
Isn’t what you’re saying what everyone’s been saying since we dropped the M-14? I’m not being smart, I’m just asking if I’m missing something?
hard to say “people are shifting away from battle rifles” when we just adopted a battle rifle imo
@@LKaramazov I mean yeah, we’ve unfortunately had a ton of circular conversations involving gear/rifles over the last few decades, I mean look at LBE. We started with LBE in the form of belt kits, then we moved to slick armor with LBE over it, then we moved to molle plate carriers with molle and now we’re seeing people move back to belt kits/LBE/chest rigs over slick armor again. I’m sure my opinion mirrors a ton of other folks and I’m in no way shape or form stating that my opinion on this stuff if 100% original.
@@antpassalacqua the DOD is run by corrupt politicians - and I am referring to the generals - who've been trying and failing to replace the Stoner design and 5.56 for decades. The new Sig is heavier, shoots heavier ammo that runs at 50% more pressure than the 5.56 in environments that are already tough on firearms, and fielded by people who 1) cannot shoot the cartridge or platform to its capabilities and 2) are legendary in their ability to break and or lose things. TL;DR: the DOD is run by people who haven't stood in battle, let alone humped a weapon on patrol or fired a shot in anger. Don't follow their guidance.
@@dw5523 i find it significantly more probably that the army is correct about where they need to go with their weapons systems than you
For the money the S&W MP-10 308 has been very reliable and accurate. I have three of them and are set up for different applications. Now I do have a Noveske and a ZEV AR-10 308's and those will be my first pick.
The M&P 10 is a great platform. Mine is incredibly accurate. I just wouldn't take it in to the field because it is very....very heavy. Especially loaded.
I got psa pa10 gen 3 16inch for my 308
Zevs are pretty sexy, nice choice.
Zevs are overpriced, Id rather buy an Armalite for half the price.
great content lately my guy
love ya
I love this channel. It's like watching a grad student doing research on his thesis of what it means to be and infantryman. Keep up the great work @BrassFacts
Amidst the battle rifle craze, it feels like people have forgotten why the US military (and militaries of the world) made the switch to 5.56 & 5.56-like cartridges to begin with. More ammo is more better, and most gunfights in most environments take place at surprisingly close ranges. To me the battle rifle is more of a specialist tool for very specific applications in very specific environments, rather than a generalist "everyone gets issued one" firearm.
Well the issue these days is the existence of armor that can stop 5.56 and you want to at least have enough power to knock your opponent down with what you’re shooting. 5.56 doesn’t have that but .308 will knock you down armor or no
Some countries like Greece and Turkey still use Battle rifles.
Oh boy. I’m glad to see gun tubers catching onto battle rifles for civilians. It’s been a thing I’ve been saying for most people since you’re not a US infantryman as a civilian, and you likely only have 1-4 other people in your group anyways so you need to make your shots count if you do shoot. This also goes with your other video on focusing on accuracy over volume of fire, 308 and other full sized rifle cartridges lend themselves very well to this obviously. Plus most people talk about engaging a near peer force and just ask yourself why would you do that? And furthermore why would you as a civilian play into their strengths of 0-300yds where you will be overwhelmed and destroyed very easily by a larger and more well supplied force?
I like your ideas, but I would like to bounce this off you: why start the other force hunting you (ie combing the area and mapping your escape routes, even if it takes a while) by engaging at long range when you can go undetected?
It starts to sound at that point like you would rather have an easily concealed 5.56 pistol, ideally with QD suppressor, to engage only if you are detected and closed with and have to break contact. When not being engaged, keeping a low profile would be priority number one.
@@45calibermedic So the idea started when I was talking with other people in this sphere and I had noticed the general trend of really everyone was get a few people and form a sort of militia. This militia would then conduct foot patrols and such over a territory in the US after some catastrophic event and either come across or actively look for enemy forces like they were US infantry in Vietnam or Afghanistan and Iraq. They would look for fights with potential near peer forces and engage them with 5.56 rifles, which just so happens to be what most nations use or similar that are near peer.
So in essence they’re trying to be a guerrilla force acting like US infantry, so I thought wait why would we do that? Because most people don’t have a platoon or even a full sized squad. So why are we getting into gunfights with uniformed armies in the distances their doctrine is centered around, that sounds like a losing battle. So I thought for a little while and went wait a minute, the Taliban didn’t do that, they engaged with PKMs, RPGs, DSHKs, and SVDs/PSLs at very long range, it’s why the Army is adopting the M7.
So I thought some more and went ok so what if they applied that doctrine instead of US ones, especially since there’s no resupply of equipment in that scenario, why would we expend hundreds of rounds per person per engagement? And then I thought some more too and went well also in the US most people don’t travel anywhere unless it’s by vehicle, and that’s what SF did in Afghanistan. They fought as dismounted infantry instead of light infantry, so then I went well what if we shortened down the rifle a little so it works around vehicles better and went to a round like 308 so you out range most infantry and don’t actively look for engagements with them. Any engagement is a target of opportunity and you shoot a few rounds accurately and leave before fire support comes in. And for shortening it that was after an observation that most people in the US have relegated 308 to which is that it must be a DMR or sniper because that’s what the military’s doctrine is and not necessarily what works best for them. And 308 is a better cartridge all around for civilians on average
@@ThrashTillDeth85why do you want a civil war anyways?
@@ThrashTillDeth85 Yeah, civilians get wiped in close distance conflict so stand off distance and barrier penetration are king.
Yep to all of this.@@ThrashTillDeth85
Just picked up an M1 for my first rifle and I am setting up my kit. 192rds of 30-06 is no joke. Super heavy!
Make sure ur ammo is speced to m2 ball. Also, Greek surplus m2 ball has corrosive primers; so make sure to clean ur rifle after shooting. U can shoot modern 30-06 out of ur m1, but u need an adjustable gas plug.
@@jeanvaljean341PPU has a couple of weights of 30-06 meant for Garands; might be a good bet
lift more, use it to do bench press
Do the gas mod to use modern ammo
The comments about commercial ammo are fudd lore btw. If your springs are good to go and the gun is greased any commercial
30-06 that isnt loaded crazy hot like hornady super performance will do.
@@Bender_B._Rodriguez did morning exercise with my Lee Enfield no.1 this morning, Garand is still on my wishlist.
New brass facts? Immediately like it before watching
A large portion of 4 cylinder cars used around the world are using aluminum engine blockswith steel sleeves. A 308 will absolutely crack the block or damage it enough that the heat and pressure of the running engine will crack it.
I was under the impression that almost all newer engine blocks are aluminum these days. Iron blocks began to go out of fashion in the 90s I believe.
While yes, a 308 can easily penetrate the block itself, a lot of the resistance the round runs into in this scenario comes from all of the sheet metal and parts around the engine itself that deform the meplat and cause the projectiles to tumble, reducing its penetrative capability.
That’s before the bullet even reaches the block itself. Just go for the driver. In Minecraft, of course.
You’d be better off targeting wheels or the driver. In Minecraft obviously
@@BillyJoeBob3691 in Minecraft the front grill and radiator provide virtually zero resistance
The BR I have is a PSA 10. I got it even with a smaller budget because of its multi purpose utility. I can use it for both hunting and use. The PSA barrels are cheap and I can make it work on my budget. 308 is just more usable for feeding yourself and killing a person. That and I did the math, yeah round per round me as a civilian, it doesn't make sense to follow accuracy through volume of fire. A 308 has double the punch in footpounds, which means every 1 308 per weight is worth 2 bullets. That and if I am engaging I do not want to be indoors for this rifle. My CQB is my home gun in a different caliber. I am gonna be using the PSA 10 for literally everything else outside the home. That and I'm not training in small unit tactics and I for myself cannot engage or sustain anything more than single shot picking off at a time tactics. It's the stalking and hunting role with the flexibility of more confrontational engagements. Which is why for my needs the battle rifle concept works better.
Personally, I use an AR-10 as my do everything gun. I like the versatility, increased terminal performance, and jack of all trades/master of none concept of .308. Training with it makes me a better shooter and I can reliably expect high performance on target. As a big guy who played football in college, as long as I make weight conscious decisions regarding the set up, the weight is manageable (mine is 11.1 lbs loaded w/ accessories). Is it the perfect load out, eh maybe not but it’s perfect for me
What ammo would you run?
@@12monkey57 depends on availability for the most part. I hunt with it so primarily all copper or soft points, M80 ball for training, and I’m tempted to try some of the more niche loads at some point!
I run an AR-10 as well. I have two separate uppers for it, one 16in and one 20in, for tactical carbine and DMR roles, respectively.
@@je2848 I had planned to do the exact same thing but there was a deal on a 18-inch, Rifle gas length system that was too good to pass up. I think I’m going to eventually get a longer 6.5 Creedmore upper and do long range stuff with that.
Ammo cost and availability stay a very real issue, but I’d love to see a 6ARC video. It works well for a SASS or a BR and essentially resolves the weight issue. Ammo cost and availability are still an issue, but you can supplement close range training with 5.56 as recoil is more similar. I think it has real potential if you can swing the ammo.
Did you watch the video? He basically argues .308 is relatively unreasonable relative to .556, because of cost, weight, usability. Sure arc outperforms .556 is nearly every aspect, but it still comes down to cost, and long term sustainability. People don't choose military cartridges due to their performance alone, it comes down to cost, and long term sustainability/availability.
If you think of Battle Rifles as tools like Carbines or even Pistols, they all have their place and their role. This is not a if you have one firearm for the rest of your life question. Battle Rifles definitely have their place and Brass Facts did a fair job on the pros of that.
Long story short it seems, a good application of the 7.62x51 NATO battle rifle in a civillian context is gonna be closer to that of the Soviet DMR. Act in lieu of a machine gun basically. No you don't have the full auto capability but a precise suppression shot is gonna make someone want to keep their head down.
There is a f auto possibility now with the reset safety from that history larper kid. 308 with drum mags.
@@josephroach9793 What the fuck even is this comment and what are you responding to specifically?
I've been wrestling with this concept a while too. Everyone knows that fire and maneuver is the fundamental principle of modern small arms fighting. This category of tactics expends ammunition to fix the enemy in exchange for time and safe avenues to maneuver.
You are not likely to be able to gain (and retain) fire superiority over a squad of armored young people at their physical peak carrying explosives and crew served weapons and access to armored vehicles and fire support, if the enemy is a state level actor (all of the things that the US govt won't let you have).
A civilian context in a tactical role by necessity requires outranging and outshooting an enemy rather than trying to win a stand up fight. You state at the end that you may be maneuvered on by an experienced enemy force. I believe you almost certainly will, and battle rifles help provide longer available range, barrier penetration, likelyhood of defeating armor/helmets at distance, etc, that will make it more difficult for the enemy and cost them more blood to make that happen.
I definitely agree that the AR15 should definitley be higher on the procurement list than a battle rifle for all the reasons you mentioned. Parts, ammo availability, expense, etc. The availability of a current issue service rifle analogue like the modern sporting rifle market is unprecedented and people definitely should take advantage of that first.
But battle rifles definitely have their place in the toolbox and it's right beside the 5.56 gun.
In a disaster or personal defense context though, none of those enemy considerations apply and 5.56 is still the absolute king.
Pretty much, a militia would be better suited to IEDs, guerilla tactics and long range precision shooting, only ever engaging the enemy (foreign or domestic) at ranged thresholds that 5.56 probably won't be effective at.
Keep the videos coming. One thing I'd like to see is something similar to the rapter 50 (single shot 50bmg bolt action upper for the ar15), but chamber it in 308, so then u can carry a lighter rifle with a normal loadout. Carry a handful of 308 and the upper. when u need to reach out and touch something far away u can by just switching out.
Colt actually made something similar to what you’re describing (Modular Rifle or something) back in 2012. I guess they didn’t do well because they stopped making them.
@@Tonymontanayayo That was a SCAR program entry, it's not at all similar to what he's asking for.
I remember seeing part of an interview with someone who served in the Middle East. No one in his unit ever wanted to be the guy carrying a .308 on patrol when the rest got m4s. Unless someone started shooting at them from more than 500 meters away. Then they were very glad it was there, since they didn't trust 5.56 out of their m4s to be effective or accurate at that range.
To me the lesson is where do you think you will be? The kind of low foliage mountains we see on your channel might justify the need for longer range. But in urban, suburban, or forested areas the chances of an engagement at that range are negligible.
If you’re going to carry a .308 it’s (and your) effective range needs to be a lot further then what a common 556 can reach. Think semiauto precision not dmr or battle rifle.
Same, like needing some eyes on 600-800m, good for overwatching
That tumble-frag effect that happens AFTER the target with 5.56 M855 is the reason I set my combat rifle up with a 20 inch barrel in order to use 55gr M193 as Eugene intended. Dumps 3300fps consistently with that frag effect, due to a lack of steel penetrator. Very interesting to see the cavities be marginally smaller with 5.56 vs 308. Very surprising.
Great breakdown of a topic with a strange amount of emotion around it.
Stoner’s first invention was the AR-10, which is chambered in 7.62 X 51.
Curious, did you go with a 1-12 barrel like Eugene? I've heard Uncle Freedom (great YT channel) talk about the original m16 and that was a surprising bit to me, according to him that 1-12 barrel was a large part of what made that barrel length and m193 effective. Made the bullet unstable enough to yaw reliably in a target.
Damn good video bro. I appreciate the perspectives on differening rifle calibers! Cheers!
If you have a group of buddies, having one carry a "BR" or "DMR" makes sense to me. If you're just a household or 2-3 that can be trusted with a gun, then shared ammo types makes sense.
Depending on how many a group means, I don’t think it makes sense.
@@BoredAmerican2 or more lol
@@ccompson2 then it definitely doesn’t make sense. Commonality of spare parts and ammunition is key as there isn’t really resupply or a “I need a new firing pin let me just order one”
This channel is one of my favorites. I recently dumped Garand Thumb b/c it's man-children bro hour nowadays. Thanks for making humorous entertainment with topics that I really am interested in learning more about. Z-sauce on!
Today in my infinite autism adventures I figured out a build that uses a ADM UIC receiver set, V Seven magnesium handguard, JP 14.5” barrel and the usual Magpul furniture and it was hyperlight for a .308 by my math. Handguard is 8oz with barrel nut, barrel is like 30oz, figure a PLXc at 17oz and I think a 6-7lb AR10 fighting rifle is feasible.
That's a spicy meatball, going to check it out for sure. Though, I'd go for a longer barrel
Love your work. The detail and logic are really enjoyable. Very few reviewers or hosts argue at this level.
Please talk about 6mm arc. It has arguably better long range performance than either 308 and 5.56. Just needs a new upper and mags.
yeah I should buy one huh.
@BrassFacts pssh, you think 6.5CM is a barrel burner, 6mm ARC is atrocious, 6.5 Grendel is probably the best, all around, other AR cartridge on paper, but like every other AR cartridge out there not based on the .223 Rem case, there's pretty significant issues once you actually stuff it into an AR-15.
@@BrassFactsyou might wanna hold off, 6mm max just spontaneously popped into existence. It uses 5.56 bolts and has extremely similar ballistics to 6mm arc, but it feeds more reliably than 6mm arc because of the shape of the cartridge. SOLGW just built a gun in 6mm max too.
@@grif5447you only burn barrels with either chambering if you try to push the cartridge too hot.
6.5 Grendel tho
On 6.5… Dropping recoil by 30(ish) percent, and shaving 10% off cartridge weight are meaningful upgrades. But I think the real benefit is that, for a variety of factors, most shooters can expect their groups to shrink by half at distances past 400m. If you’re shooting at things that can shoot back, getting first round hits is a big deal. And if you’re the one initiating contact it’s a very big deal. Just my thoughts on another really great video.
the issue is barrel life.
Do 1 react to contact drill with 6.5 and your barrel life has double digit percentages knocked off of it.
@@BrassFacts you’re doing 300 round react-to-contact drills?
If you can afford to do that, you can afford a 6.5 replacement barrel to have handy. You won’t see noticeable accuracy loss until at least 3k rounds, and you won’t lose “battle accuracy” until closer to 5k **correction, probably more like 4k after some reading**. Barrel-life with 6.5cd is blown way out of proportion.
That’s fud lore based on PRS guns. Hornady 143gr has the same muzzle velocity and chamber pressures as 308 (M80) but has better drop and drift characteristics and more consistent loading. 6.5 creed CHF chrome barrels wear at the same rate as 308 and run cleaner.
@@ElBandido_1 to me, that's not a lot.
Recall I actually want train with my rifle, not just shoot it in SHTF. 3k is a really low round count by 308/556 standards.
@@jackjmaheriii
This has not been my experience.
I'm not saying it's a 2000 round barrel burner.
But it's also not reaching 10k rounds. Not even close. At least with the samples I've seen that were treated similarly to fighting rifles (not PRS rifles).
Sample size of 3.
I'm into .308 because of a mindset that I want to avoid an icepick situation, I was distraught at how much deflection that foliage can cause, and how m43 Soviet doesn't have the range for the mountains around me
Not sure if it’s on purpose, but the background music gives me a between-missions-RDR2 yet SpongeBob SquarePants theme-y ASMR feel. Quite Relaxing.
Appreciate the take and research put into the video.
Didn't the guy who won Finnish Brutality do so with a 308?
yeah. But, they did divisions there.
Ziga, yes
@@BrassFactshe won first overall.
He did, but they only needed single round hits so caliber didn't matter a ton except with spinners, which the .308 slaps lmao
@@wolfgang_h3ti think single round hits are more realistic with rifles in general.
A big part of caliber selection is location, location, location. I absolutely love the Battle Rifle concept, and if you're in the mid west or the south west with these nice open fields that stretch as far as the eye can see then chamberings rifle cartridges may be worth wild consideration. Here in Virginia, the argument for these calibers start to fall flat, of course these calibers will always have a niche in the DMR role, but you are lucky if you get a shot opportunity even at 300 meters, little lone 800.
I think one of the biggest appeals to .308 is that it checks so many boxes because it's a 30 cal, it's the "Do all" slug, the "Jack of all trades, master of none" caliber... but when your range is limited by either urban or tropic(ish) environment... it's harder to justify, you can drop down to .300 Blkout, 7.62x39 or other intermediate rounds above .244 and keep the bulk of those boxes checked, while having all the benefits of a intermediate cartridge with ease of access to the 5.56x45 round if needed.
Though other than the obvious logistical benefits to 5.56, on sheer performance I'm not sure it is optimal for Virginia either.
I think the BR 308 is more of a master & jack of all trades. But you pay for it in weight.
308 is good at mostly everything to a pretty high level. But it's not efficient.
300y is handgun range
I never wanted a 308 except for a bolt gun, but i dont have the outdoor range to stretch that at all, so it stays at the bottom of the list.
Good video, curious how it does in public given the length and meatiness
My “BR” is just in case the aliens are bigger than we think they are. Or the t800s
.308 is absolutely the way to go for a civilian f8ghting cartridge. The ONLY draw back is weight. But in SHTF, you not rucking miles to intentionally get into firefights, your not likely to be moving with an entire platoon, you dont have assets like the military does. Civilian fighting doctrine is NOT a military fighting doctrine. You will likely be moving with your wife and kids. Do you really want to find yourself in firefights all the time? How fast do you think youll want to move with a rifle behind every blade of grass that can see your body heat in the dark?
You will want to move low and slow and avoid firefights like the plague. You want to increase survivability but also maximize lethality. Dont be dumb. Youll want to stay outside the max effecrive range of 5.56. You also need a specialty 77gr 5.56 ammo to be effective within just 600m. The most common 5.56 is 55gr ball which is what most have stockpiled. The worst ammo, that has proven itself to suck even on targets not wearing armor. With .308 you dont need specialty ammo to be effective out to 1000yrds. 147gr can do the job and you just 1 well placed round to the touroso or leg to be catastrophic and garuntee a winning edge in a fight.
5.56 is good, great even.. for the military. Good for CQB too. But, people are wearing modern body armor and historicaly we have not faught adversaries with modern plates. 5.56 impacts on plates wont really do much. A .308 impact on a plate, can potentially fracture ribs even at distance, giving you a winning edge.
You dont want to just injure someone if they're trying to kill you. You want to kill them as fast as possible so there is no chance of them firing rounds at your wife and kids trying to run to cover. In the real world, even a "lucky shot" can mean life and death. 1 lucky shit from 5.56 to your wifes gut, will probably lead to infection which would kill her instead of the actual 5.56 round.
You dont need a bunch of ammo on you for SHTF. You need just the very bear essential. The dude with 5.56 will try to supress you at 1000yrds and waste all his ammo while you could return much better accurate fire EVEN in inclement weather and vegetation. This is the real world. Weather isnt going to be perfect like your used to on the range. You will be at a significant advantage in rain, snow, hail, sleet, and wind. .308 is also significantly more powerful in terms of terminal ballistics in every aspect. Period. Its the better round in every single way in that.
Recoil. If you cant handle the recoil of a .308, either get to the gym or make necessary adjustments to make your weapon even more lethal.
Redundancy. .30 cal is the MOST common caliber probably on earth. You can find .300blk, 30-06, 7.62x39, etc and be able to pit it in a .308 casing and reload it. You cant say the same about 5.56.
Cost. You really want to cheap out on you and your families SHTF life insurance policy? Use 5.56 as a training round for your .308 rifle and turn the gas all the way up with no muzzle device.
Red dots are dumb for SHTF. They need batteries. LPVOs dont (most). LPVOs also give you more options.
To end. 5.56 is absolutely not the way to go for a civilian fighting cartridge period. That means your mk18 5.56 clone you spent 3k on. A 16" AR10 in .308 is the best civilian fighting cartridge for SHTF period. Your not military and you will want to avoid firefights like its black mold. Move low and slow, stay outside max effective range of 5.56, observe, engage from a far, survive.
As much as I like my little MK18 12.5" bastard sword build, I've always maintained the idea of being a door kicker is an absolute lark and waste of money and time, and in a real SHTF scenario, as Sun Tzu says, "The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting".
My point? To be offensive in any conflict is borderline suicide if you're alone, or even if you're with your buddies. You are not the US Military, you are not Seal Team 6, you are Johnny come marching home, so fucking fight like him and do not let yourself think for a second that you should fight like a conventional force.
The US military values lightweight ammunition because you can move a lot of it, cheaply, and it works well in suppression during firefights. But why would you get into firefights in the first place? The US military has a near endless supply of resources, you don't. Make every shot count. This isn't to say 5.56 isn't of some value, quite the opposite, but your method of approach MUST be different, your tactics MUST be different, and thus, so too must your equipment.
A BR or a SPR will make you infinitely more capable with the right training, once you break from the conventional force mentality.
I very much agree with the bulk of your post, but I don't see how a BR as described in this video with any amount of training is "infinitely more capable"? A SASS type setup with training and tactics, sure, but not a BR.
@@snek9353 All a DMR is, is a BR with a smart degree of precision work done. The M110, even the M110a1 is grossly overkill for what it should be, and a BR chosen as a baseline will do better with cheaper .308 and 6.5 creedmoor loads that would be preferential because you're not reaching out and touching someone out to 800-1000m.
That said, while 6.5 creedmoor performs better than .308 out of a 16" barrel, its not that much better.
Basically, you're trying to maximize 2 things. Price, not just of the rifle, but ammunition, and weight. We're getting performance out of the .308 cartridge, compared to the 5.56 but that itself has two different aspects depending on the load you use.
The ultimate "troll the military" loadout would probably be something like a SFAR, with a 16" barrel, chambered in .308, a reflex style of suppressor to reduce the length as much as possible, with a 3-15 optic. You have a rifle that can be taken down into 3 parts, is seriously light, has the capabilities to engage far more consistently where 5.56 cannot, and because of the 1:10 twist rate, you're going to have a barrel that stabilizes 147 grain M80 about as well as something like 155 grain which tends to the more accurate budget loading I've had luck with.
If you want a dedicated DMR, go for it, but a BR, in the case if you have to ditch it, is going to be a much greater financial risk, is going to make you stick out more, is going to be heavier, and is going to be honestly, way more rifle than you need. At that point, buy a Howa 1500 action, put it in a MDT chassis, and get really good at making extremely long range shots because that alone is more viable than a BR, but isn't going to be accessible to the majority of people.
@@UMADBRO64 I built my .308 SASS type rifle years ago and have another more GP 16" .308. Both are LR308 pattern. The SASS I put some $$$ in it. 20" CF barrel, titanium goodies, capable powerful optic, silencer, etc. It'd be rather light if it wasn't for the extras mostly the optic, there's just no such thing as a capable light weight scope.
I built it in part as a support rifle. My brother is all setup with a nice 338LM setup, no need to duplicate that. But this rifle pairs well with it, I put enough optic on it that I can spot for him with the rifle scope and should things get hairy I can lay more volume of fire at medium ranges.
I'm not going to be running and gunning with a .308 I just don't think that makes any sense. There's better tools for that type of thing.
Remember, "Single-Shot Freddy" suppressed a whole fire team with a Lee-Enfield.
@@pavelthefabulous5675how do you know it was a lee enfield?
338 Federal would make a badass BR; sane capacity as 308 but with more energy and velocity, so itd be good out of a 16" barrel. There's a reason most big game hunters won't take a .223 into the field, but will grab a .308 for everything from Blacktail to Caribou.
Tourist hunters may not take a 223.
Well, 338 has a noticeable more curved trajectory than 308. If one of the main objectives of a 'battle rifle' is to be able to comfortably reach out and touch something past 600 yards, then in that regard 338 fed might not be the best choice for an all aspect BR cartridge.
@@7ElevenTruther yep. Tradeoffs to both.
My take: I would never do a traditional battle rifle (i.e. a .308 rifle accessorized the same way as a GPR) If I felt the benefits of 1st round hit consistency, barrier penetration, and terminal performance were worth the cons on a personal or fireteam level, I'd much rather go the small step further and do a CSASS concept, preferably in 6.5CM.
next on my plate.
Big thumbs up on 6.5. recoil is less than .308, but still 2x the weight of 5.56 with a fantastic BC. And with the options we've got with projectiles, it's certainly capable of devastating wounds.
I’m not rich enough to buy enough 308 for a general rifle. If i buy 308 every round counts, it’s gotta be a DMR style rifle.
@@rl1271 to be fair, the dmr role is simply that of a longer range, rifle, with increased hit probability. The neat part is that even the PSA pa-10's are quite accurate and consistent. The latter being the truest measure of accuracy afterall. As I've stated in many comments, the Adams arms sf308 short stroke piston rifles have done things few would ask. Like consuming steel case Russian ammunition. Everything else ran too. Pistons seem to operate more reliably when you increase powder charge and carbon output.
@@PureCountryof91interesting point. I’ve heard good things about the Adams 308 but I’m fine with DI 308. Less moving parts and weight. I’m not shooting enough 308 to notice any cleaner operations with a piston. Now if we’re talking .223 then I’m 100% a short stroke piston guy
I thought about this concept a lot as well and the only real POU I found for it is a defensively oriented stationary system. Like a militia defending a specific location, i.e. you and your friends defending your house. Here, the downsides of weight and bulk aren't that significant since you're not hiking anywhere and you don't have to carry all your ammo on your person. And it would give you the edge in firepower over whoever has hiked towards the place you're defending.
The worse the weather gets and the longer the engagement distance is the bigger your advantage will be. However, as a civilian, target identification and rules of engagement become an issue.
Another thing is that given how this scenario is very specific and based around long range fighting, a 6.5CM might make more sense because it performs even better at range and defies wind better and the idea is to only use this thing close range if necessary / in an emergency, so the overall round count stays low during practice. So depending how you wanna lay this out and how much you wanna focus on long range engagement you might justify the price.
Idk, I want one because it's the stronger sicker round but it makes no sense to invest in one.
I think a lot of the battle rifle craze is due to all these gun tubers living out west where you can see someone coming a mile away. For most Americans, 300 yards is the longest realistic shot. Also, we see military engagements at long range and assume we'd have the same needs... unless we're literally rebelling against the Govt, the goal is to survive a WROL situation. That means avoiding engagements entirely is plan 1... at ranges beyond what a 5.56 is capable of, you can hide and avoid detection 90% of the time or use 5.56 to suppress and big out another 8%. Only 2% of the time would you actually need accurate hard hitting power. But needing fast follow up shots at close range is faaaar more likely, therefore 5.56 makes the most sense.
A 308 battle rifle is also capable of ethically bringing down basically every type of North American game animal. Which makes it actually useful in a non-SHTF situation.
I set up a DD5v3. Yes it’s 13lbs fully setup. Yes it fills all roles I personally need and/or foresee. I won’t be changing it anytime soon. I run a 10mm handgun on me and a 10mm PCC in my backpack as EDC. When I need to grab the Hercules bag, my pack, and the two loaded alu-boxes and head out, I’m pretty sure I’ll be ok. If not, then I reckon it isn’t going to matter anymore.
I like the way you think
"what caliber is everyone else running? I'll have whatever is bigger."
@@constantk8780 yup, youre opponent is most likely to have a g19 and M4, why not out gun him?
@@constantk8780, I personally don’t care what anyone else has. I use what works without getting overly complicated and/or redundant. For the way I see it happening, where I live, and where I’ll be heading, I’m right on target. I think most smart folks will do what works for them. The sheep can larp it up in the city with their 10.3’s loaded with M855.
Clutching My SCAR close to my heart while watching
It all changes when taken a little further with more barrel, optic, etc. When plussed up to a SASS/DMR roll a semi-auto .308 makes a lot more sense.
yep, next video
A 16" .308 can do both if you have quality return to zero QD mounts for multiple optics.
@@Kinetic.44 RTZ mounts are +/- 1moa at best. Not acceptable for a CSASS Imo
@@Kinetic.44 There's more to it than optic, of course putting more optic on a 16" BR pushes it in that direction. But to really plus up, we're talking more like a 20" CF barrel, match chamber, fixed stock with comb, good bi-pod, etc.
So my take, maybe for prepared citizen perhaps a bolt gun would a better option if you really need the extra performance of a 308/6.5. Unless your looking to have a general purpose machinegun role using a BR (which is thing in militaries across the world ) then yeah its worth the cost and weight.
I get genuinely excited whenever a brass facts video shows up in the feed
Incorporating a .308 rifleman into a small unit brings few pros and a whole lot of cons. If you're in a group that is already committed to AR's (or AK's), then getting that one guy to carry a .308 rifle and have him be a proficient rifleman in order to take advantage of the additional firepower that the .308 brings can be a real endeavor for the team.
Whatever .308 rifle you choose will always be proprietary with its own distinct manual of arms, spare parts, magazines and _of_ _course_ ammunition.
The .308 rifleman will have to stand alone, he cannot share mags and ammo with his fellow team members and if he is not a good shot then any advantage the .308 offers is wasted, and I would personally argue that the advantage of the .308 over the .223 (or 7.62 AK) is marginal at best.
Members of a small unit who are training and practicing together need to have _commonality_ _of_ _arms_ so that they can simplify their fire regimen and focus on other tech like communications, drones, first aid, intelligence, logistics, navigation, etc.
If a team member wants to bring his .308 rifle and is good with it, then thats great for the team. But, trying to force feed a .308 rifle onto an unwilling team member and expecting solid results is going to result in a whole lot of disappointment.
I think the area where the .308 "battle rifle" fills better is the SDMR role. Most of the negatives when attributed to the system generally don't exist as ammo weight is less important because you aren't carrying a full load at most maybe 4 magazines and weight of the rifle with an LPVO, suppressor, and bipod isn't an absurd amount heavier than an intermediate dedicated SPR build. The trade off in weight is made up for in hard barrier penetration, wind deflection, and terminal performance at ranges past 300 meters.
Before watching...Every time I think about grabbing a BR, I just can't get behind it. a 16"+ AR with 77gr ammo really reaches out pretty far. If I need actual "stopping power" at ranges where a 77gr falls off, I'll just grab a bolty
but bolt guns suck though
But this is a semi auto bolty 💀
Bolt guns are extremely reliable and are by far the best for distance/ accuracy
@@gregorypatzelt6964 a 308 bolt rifle is less capable than a 308 br
Good idea it saves lots of ammo and the frustration if building your own.
6:13
I struggle to build muscle, but I've been rucking with a 65 pound pack on hills pretty much every day for a few months, and my pack now just feels like an extension of my body. (More than that and my spine starts to get crushed at around mile 5)
Exercise is more important than caliber selection in my dumb opinion.
Man, I just love that you are a Utah guy and also your music has Aldecado's vibes lol (STG desert rat here myself) Unlike Garand Thumbs BF4 vibes. It's a nice subscription balance.
The right tool for the right job.
Modern lightweight battle rifles have a LOT of advantages over smaller carbines performing certain duties. Mainly double the range and single shot LETHALITY at extended range, which 5.56 drops off fairly quickly and loses a lot of ass past a couple hundred yards. Could be a problem if you're shooting at someone wearing armor, behind cover, or a larger animal.
Not saying 5.56 can't kill at long range. But according to a lot soldiers who served in Afghanistan, it was lacking in the lethality dept, especially when you're up against machine guns and rifles with a range of 700m.
Being a civilian who can only realistically own semi autos, It only makes sense to me to focus on precision shooting. Also, if you're a hunter, .30 caliber makes way more sense for a general purpose rifle.
You're not going to want an AR15 in a gunfight anyway. I'd rather have a belt fed with 250 rounds on tap for suppressive fire. AR15's really shine at being a rifle that can do everything well, but kind of suck at any one specific job.
Use the tool that's right for you, or have several. Just practice for God's sake.
Having had to carry a fighting load. More bullets is more better in a fight and it's hard to carry more 308. If you want to kill at distance that's what the 240 or M2 on your truck is for.
The army shouldve seen this video before switching to 6.8
The original FN FAL was chambered in .280, but some pon headed Lieutenant Colonel in charge if the US Ordnance department insisted that nothing but a .30 caliber will do. So we stayed with a .308 in the M14. So now we are going to the 6.8, basically a .280. So it came around full circle.
@@ms.annthrope415 Stoner got it right the first time with the AR10. The cope about carrying more rounds and lightweight AR15/AR18 platforms for the last 40yrs basically getting dumped for a 20rd mag and heavier weight platform has to hurt OOF😂😂
Great vid. I'd really looked at .308 for a while but you almost went right down the list of why I wanted one and why I passed.
Yep perfectly stated. Built an aero M5 from a builders kit I won. All nice premium parts but they didn’t play will and the gun felt like it had excessive recoil.
Changed some stuff and made it a 6.5cm and that was a fantastic decision.
I ended up with a LMT MARS-H complete rifle for about 2/3rd current market(long story) and I have a standard 16in & 13.5 light weight barrel for it. I think you did a good job summing up that ammo price is cost prohibitive for training, the gun cost of a good BR is prohibitive, and they have some big short comings when you add cans, lights and the practical accessories. That was super evident to me when I used it for my first match that required about 155rd and 10k of cross country movement between shooting stages and I had a 16in barrel and a sandman S on that gun. It was absolutely miserable and shooting times on stages were definitely longer than any of my 5.56 or 6.5G times would be. For most intermediate to long distances once I feel I’m leaving the effective range of 5.56 I’m switching to 6.5G then 6.5CM and my LMT sits in my safe as the grail gun of my youth that I will never sell but sadly don’t use much.
I really needed this video. I'm in the market for a battle rifle and to be honest I'm stuck between SCAR, Spear, KAC, HK mr762 or maybe even a NEMO or Noveske. On the cheap end: at least a Tavor 7 or XCR-M by Robinson arms. So many choices! And it really comes down to if you want a DMR/ SASS or a CQB setup. I'm having a hard time finding one that is great at both. Keep coming to the SCAR or Spear even tho I want to stray to something more exotic at times. I wish the damn Ruger SFAR was reliable haha expensive options
If you can/will build, I think doing a LR308 pattern build is a no brainer. It's the closest thing to the universal nature of the AR15.
@@snek9353 thanks for the info! I've never built a rifle so idk if it would be good to start on my SHTF "go to" rifle but I appreciate the knowledge and will keep it in mind.
I would not sleep on the LMT MWS/MARS H platform.
It's not nearly as glamorous as something like the scar or hk, but they shoot great, are somewhat affordable (around 3k,maybe 2500 on sale) bomb proof reliable, accurate, and have parts support from LMT, especially considering the quick swap barrels and ability to change caliber or even run the piston or DI barrels.
Monolithic upper reciever as well.
LMTs barrels are durable as fuck, the gas systems are improved over the base designs, and LMTs enhanced 308 bolts with dual ejectors just run and run and run.
Only downside is that a 16 inch 308 DI with the Mlok rail weighs nearly 10 pounds unloaded but that's the price you pay for having all those features married with the reliability of a KAC SR25 at less cost than any other Gucci tier 308 on the market.
This is what I bought for my first battle rifle.
20s trust 💯 😎
Should check out the PWS MK216. I've yet to have any malfunction with the long stroke piston system and it shoots sub MOA with good ammo. It IS 8 something pounds naked but I'd take it over any other 308 rifle on the market right now.
Yell me more. Accessories, how you trained with it, max distance etc. I have the mk111 and mk116 I'm looking into the mk216
Absolutely love my mk216. Also have a Mk116 pro and a Mmlk114 mod 2 but the 308 is my favorite. Though she a heavy girl, even with an ACOG.
Sold my PWS MK216 for several reasons, mainly because it would not run steel case (its a match chamber, not meant for such but wanted to try). After I sent it off for service, I was told it's not designed to run steel. Well then it starts having issues running m80 ball. I start seeing corrosion around the gas regulator. Sent it off to PWS for service again, and sold it as soon as I got it back.
I have long since returned to just running a 308 DI setup with a quality adjustable gas block.
@@308supremacist I'm thinking a bolt action is good enough, and running 308 like I run my ar I couldn't afford at the moment
@Jasonator15 that's completely understandable. Not everyone can even afford to run 5.56 as a fighting rifle nowadays. If you're just using it as a game/target rifle, I'd almost say to just build a 10. There are exceedingly few factory 308 AR options that I'd recommended for under 2k.
For 1500 you can build a VERY capable 308 AR, that outperforms even some of the 2500+ dollar options across the metrics of weight, reliability, and even MOA/Sub-MOA capability. M80 ball is roughly 10 cents per round cheaper than the cheapest 77gr 5.56, and still has a significant increase in terminal performance.
I've been building and running 308 rifles for about 10 or 11 years now, it has gotten much better than it used to be haha
I think they're at the end you summed it up pretty well. Myself I have a 300 Black set up a 556 general purpose and my 308 is the use case you summed up combined with situations where like you said signature matters and it's more a fire and maneuver or a situation of deflection matters suppression matters or I'm simply trying to shut down an area where a secondary or third shot might not be super realistic and I'm assuming that at range obviously. But as you said general purpose do all gun 556 is king of and no one can touch it. Suppressed CQB 300 Black is the absolute king of. 308 is probably the king of something lol. And it gave me a good reason to build a new rifle.
That all being said. For everyone who talks about really high-end 556 ammunition or really high-end match grade barrels. If you yourself do not have a high stockpile of either ammunition or actually have a match competition barrel capable of reaching out past 700 and still holding moa (not many exist). You're living in a fantasy world. You can dream up all your capabilities and you can dream up shooting whatever you want but if you don't have those on hand now you won't have it. Odds are most of you are like me. You have a pretty well-built AR that hold a pretty good group especially compared to a lot of general ARs. However most of you like me probably have a large stockpile of IMI FMJ or some hunting quality soft points. You might have a couple hundred rounds or less of "combat ammunition" but as anyone who is actually been in a bog down gunfight we'll tell you. A couple hundred rounds is a gunfight's worth after that you're out. Even on the chance that you had the spare mags loaded in your bag and that you had all your ammo with you. Obviously the way to survive a gunfight is not getting a gunfight. But be realistic when you're comparing 556 and 308. Anyone who is saying 308 is better as an overall gun is ignorant or slow in the head or just on the educated on firearms/combatives. However at significant range to claim that 556 in general is as capable as 308 is extremely misleading. I'm a vet, gunsmith, I have my own FFL, and I have hundreds of thousands of rounds on 556 platforms and tens of thousands of rounds on 7.62x51/308 ( Yes obviously I understand They are different rounds and have different head spaces and pressures. But they are close enough for this conversation) platforms on close range shooting, dynamic shooting, and long-range shooting I've also seen what they do to flesh. Obviously only anecdotal but there is a clear difference between the two calipers. That being said a round to the fatal dumbbell or to the hip is probably going to stop the fight regardless so 556 for most people's use case and capability of shooting is what they need.
I built a SHTF GPR 308 cause i live in the west and i had hunting in mind with defense capabilities. Now with the SFAR available(provided yours is reliable), its a no brainer to have a 308 GPR built for SHTF.
A 308 BR also doubles great as a hunting gun, same cannot be said of a sbr 556
Why not?!
@@Aurora4804 Because he can't hit his shots
As some one who lives in the near jungle of the South east a 100 yard shot is extremely rare. Guess that means I'll continue rocking something small and light as I slog around the hillsides.
In the north GA mountains I kinda agree... but at the same time, 308 will also maintain trajectory better through thick brush than 556... does that mean 300blk or 762x32 is ideal for these areas? Idk. But there's something to be said for punching through the brush.
@@calebnation6155 you can carry a lot more, 5.56, 300blk and 7.62x39 then you can 308. If you are in a fire fight a lot of the shooting is suppressive fire so more ammo is better. Given that the vast majority of engagements are under 300m theres a reason battle rifles faded away for rifles like the M-16/4, AK-47 and ak74 as the do all guns for fighting in any environment.
My personal rifle of choice is my ptr91 (a3s) with bipod fore grip and carry handle and a burris ar332 (for now) its not bad but weighs 16lbs, its sooo good to shoot but is quite a chunky girl
men will see a 34 minute BrassFacts video and think “Hell Yah”
Battle rifles are kind of a solution looking for a problem these days. 30hate is amazing when pressed into a high quality static position precision rifle. Doing that project it’s due justice will cost you. If you want a “battle rifle” type idea.. a .30 cal rig pressed into an assault role, just AK akordingly 👍
sucks cuz i feel you so much, i feel your comment whole heartedly. but finding decent x39 is getting harder ever damn day and it really pisses me off cuz i spent a ton on a badass gun 3 years ago only to have the friggin ammo dry up when it used to be sub 30c a round
I wonder if bullpup battle rifles (such as the 7.62mm MDRX) would make that big a difference on your thoughts with regards to weight and manoeuvrability?
Seeing as the weight is concentrated more at the back so it may be just as heavy but it feels more wieldable…
was thinking the same, and almost wanted to sell some things to afford one of these, if even for only a little bit. reviews are pretty poor though from what ive watched/read so far. cool af concept though
practical because this
>M24O recovered from a APC of [opposition forces]
>M240 is damanged
>take its belt of 149gr m80 ball off the belt
>put it in FAL
>adjust gas regulator
Would love to see the future SASS M110 type series and civ pou. The ability to out range an enemy force at great distance and keep them pinned down for an extended period of time while your element can maneuver is a huge asset when you don’t have any ability to call for fire.
Galil 308 doesn’t get enough love.
Keltec RFB is the ultimate battle rifle. Seriously.
My goal in SHTF is to create the dopest battlefield pick up ever when I get smoked. That's why I choose a Gucci battlerifle while carrying so much ammo I can't get up stairs.
You better not disparage Zapplesauce! That's one of my favorite finds in the field
Just started the video, but imo Battle Rifles have more of a place now than they did 30 years ago. As a fighting rifle, it has the best shot at penetration against body armor (especially ‘special threat’ plates) while providing more stand off in an era of increased proliferation of advanced optics and drones
Your 308 still won't penetrate plates with one shot
Best answer award goes to you my friend
no, it's not tarkov. You don't have incidental damage. You either pen the plate or not. And all modern hard plates are really good against 308 (308 is inherently a bad AP round).
everything else I agree with.
@@BrassFacts 7.62 NATO has more options for loading AP rounds, and while I wouldn’t bank on one clearing through a ‘special threat’ plate, they’re still not rated for it
My feeling on a .308 or 7.62×51 semi auto is that it's fine if you're part of a team and you get the job of overwatch/long range support. There's a reason modern militaries have gone with intermediate cartridges for their main fighting rifles, and it's not because .308 is ineffective. .308 is definitely an effective round, but you can't carry as much ammo, and I wouldn't want to clear a room with a 14.5 inch .308 rapid fire flashbang concussion machine. Mag dumping .308 just isn't as realistic as putting high volume of fire out with a 5.56. I would only run one if i was in a team of 4-5 other individuals who are all running squared away 5.56 rifles and there's a need for long range support. They're fine marksman weapons, but they shouldn't be your main fighting system.
I lean this direction as well, I don't think the BR has much if any real roll at all. I do however think a .308 DMR/CSASS has several very important use cases a couple of which he mentions in the video.
How many wars has 5.56 won?
US military: Yea naw we going back to 20rd Mags and Heavier guns 😂😂😂
This is why I'm surprised 6 ARC didn't become more popular. Higher bullet weight, better bc for distance, etc., while still maintaining the lower weight of an ar-15 frame...
Good vid. Thanks for expanding a bit on Garand Thumb mentioning that a battle rifle could be used to achieve fire superiority in his react to ambush vid.
I'm currently in the process of wasting money on trying to make an FAL compete in today's modern world. So far it's just a range toy, magazine reliability has become annoying since most are 50+ years old. But man is it fun, could be a little bit lighter though.
I love my FAL but it is really heavy to be honest
@@mikepaz8385 mine is a 16" "fluted" barrel and is 10lbs unloaded with just an eotech on it😅
I have the STG from when they were still building them with surplus parts. I put an ACOG on it.
I’m not sure 308 and 5.56 are as close as you are implying, bullet for bullet. I think the real culprit is just how abysmal 150 gr ball is in 308. It makes zero sense how inaccurate 7.62x51 ball is unless it’s just really really badly designed. Compare TSX to TSX or BTHP to BTHP I bet it would look exactly how conventional wisdom would lead you to believe.
sure, but at that point the price calculus is even more fucked.
@@BrassFacts just checking SG Mk 262 is the same price as 175 SMK and gold dot is the same price for both. I think the price discrepancy is at its worst with ball ammo.
@@K-bob_45 mk 262 is vastly overpriced tbh.
77gr with SMK bullets are going for 60-70pr.
@@BrassFacts where? I saw some 68’s but all the 77’s I’ve seen are right at a dollar for factory new
@@BrassFacts
That's why you reload
Came for .308 pew pew. Stayed for The Abyss...
Good work. I agree with the 1 rifle for 1 person or team of 2 idea. If you can get the right ammo it also can defeat body armor. If you want to hunt with your “1” rifle it is a better choice than 5.56, but so is 6.5 Grendel.
The weight is the big issue. Except when hunting, if I’m going to carry a rifle more than shoot it, I’ll take an AR-15.
If you want to stage a rifle for potential response to active shooters (you won’t be carrying it on patrol) and can get the right ammo, it is a great choice.
If I was a police officer and had the option of an AR-10 in my trunk instead of a 5.56, I would pick AR-10.
I got my pa-10 mostly because I just wanted it and it's fun. But in the prepared civilian context, either you or someone you are working with should have a machine gun or battle rifle. The intermediate cartridge meta relies upon the idea that you have external support. And like Garand Thumb said regarding carrying a lot of ammo with his recce rifle video, if you get in trouble, no one is coming to save you.
It also by nature puts a greater emphasis on marksmanship, which is shockingly and shamefully lacking in our community.
Prepared to learn yall spent a year to learn that socom was right to reject the scar-h and be glad i didn't get into this
SOCOM didn't reject the SCAR-17, they rejected the SCAR-16. The 17 was actually issued and used in service unlike the 5.56 version.
@@GhostlyTurtle they use neither
I can tell you some experience with a POF rogue…. Runs great unsuppressed falls the fuck apart with a suppressor. Maybe an oss style can would work but we could not get the gun to cycle reliably with a can. Tried a rifle speed gas control, improved it a bit.. contacted POF and they suggested polishing the chamber and some ridiculous 500 end break in. The customer gave up and sold his rifle, ended up with a super nice 300bo
gotcha good to know. Weird that they basically ghosted me.
Got my hopes up seeing the Desert tech in the beginning!
Sponsor segment was good enough to make me want to order some MREs for when I have to take in house call at the hospital lol
I went with the LaRue 308 predatar. 7.25 lbs without Optics. It is a reliable sub-moa gun that I love taking on walk and stalk hunting trips.