Reminds me of the south park clip where the goth kid says "All you have to do to be a non conformist is dress like us, act like us, and listen to the same music as us."
Which reminds me of being in a punk band in high school. Our singer told me not to wear metal merchandise because "that's not punk". Fuck off Mikael, I'll wear what I want!
Further back in time, Monty Python expressed the same idea in their movie Life of Brian. Brian is mistaken for a prophet and unintentionally attracts followers. Brian says to the crown in one famous scene; you are all individuals. The crowd repeats; yes WE are all individuals except for one who says I'm not.
as much as I love South Park, they get it wrong on their depiction of goth and emo being the same. Goth's enjoy the darkness, celebrate it. Don't wallow in suburban teenage depression.
I'm 67 years old and have been into punk ever since I first heard the Sex Pistols on FM radio back in 1977. When I say I was into punk I mean the music & the lyrics and not the "scene." Where I lived and at my age, I didn't know anyone into punk rock. And I am the type of person who didn't have many friends and still don't. In fact, I don't have any real friends now apart from family and my fiancee but I'm okay with that. The thing about punk rock is that there are so many different flavors and I like that. There's some flavors I don't care for and some I really love. To each his/her own and nobody should be criticized about what flavors they're into.
We are a lot alike, except I'd go further. People thought I was into punk, but I was into the Pistols. They were the only band for me that said a no that sounded like a yes. There was no dogma of specific politics laid down. John was a working class freak, and Steve was a useless theif, and they led by example their way out of their fate. That is the appeal of punk to me, not an ethos of being violent and negative and defeatist.
I once saw Finn respond to a troll with “of course it isn’t punk, nothing is punk. Only you are punk.” And it was one of the best direct hits I’ve ever seen. This fkn scene man 😂😂😂
I wore cargo shorts and a Vans shirt to a NOFX show once (I was already in my 20s by then) and was glared at by 16 year olds in spiky leather jackets and ripped up thrift store jeans. It was like 90 degrees outside and these kids really cared about "looking the part" over their own comfort. Long story short, I had an awesome time and guess who else was wearing cargo shorts and a Vans T-shirt? Fat Mike.
This is exactly the kind of video that made me fall in love with this channel, this mix of criticism, music history and psychology just feels special, like I have not found another channel that feels like that and I'm glad I can start watching the main channel again for other reasons than supporting you and your family ❤️
Straight facts. When I got into punk I thought it was an inclusive thing. And maybe 25% of it was. But the other 75% or so was just the same as every other group of people, judging and trashing everyone who didn't look like them or had money or didn't party. Straight facts Finn
Right on man. I think we humans get involved in anything we do for that 25%of good wheat. The rest is chaff that you fine in anything. Being able to glean that wheat from the chaff is the difference from finding joy in what we do, and always being miserable.
I once got into it with some "skinheads" who got upset that people who weren't familiar with it thinking they were neo-nazis. Ultimately they admitted it was all about the "fashion" and that I was a "poser" because I didn't wear shitty clothes and wasn't a junkie lol
I also dislike the hostility towards other styles of music. I loved punk, but I also love classic rock, blues rock, metal, etc. It got annoying when friends acted so dramatic because I "wasn't being punk" when they found me listening to ZZ Top lol
Hey man I’m 38 and I had this exact thought the other day. Literally was on my mind all day “ if I didn’t get into punk would I have done better in life instead of being where I’m at now?” I also wasn’t active in social life at school because I was “too punk” to go to prom or fall dance or care about graduation. Delayed college ( have only taken a couple semesters ) and surrounded myself with likeminded negative outlook people. Up until my early 30s did I finally stop listening to punk and started having a different outlook on life. Much like in the way you described in the video. Thank you for this.
Oh man , you lived my same experience. Yeah man I was punk. Boots. Jeans. Black T shirts. Loser friends. Smoking cigarettes . Giving my parents hell. Obsessing with how I looked at all hours.mynhairb.. my hair... I had to "hate preppy kids'. A coworker told me he was going to study to be an accountant. I thought he was such. A square, a loser. Turns out I was the loser !!
@@My_knob on a genre that promotes a negative outlook. Yes I’m going to put at least some blame on that. You surround yourself with negative it’s going to have an effect on your thinking and outlook then eventually your decision making. You missed the entire point of this video didn’t you.
I listened to punk when I was younger. I never got Into the scene or dress like people said I should. I listened to the bands went to the shows and then went home. I never had friends that listened to punk or any form of rock music so to me. I always did things on.my own.
Remember that video you did a few weeks ago about not knowing where to take the channel, and whether or not you should insert your personal opinions into videos? This video is how you should do it. This one ruled.
I don't always agree with everything Finn says but I usually learn something and sometimes change my mind. Only the mentally weak won't consider a different opinion.
To quote a certain punk "Punk's not dead, it just deserves to die When it becomes another stale cartoon A closed minded, self-centered social club Ideas don't matter, it's who you know" It saddens me that I do agree with everything you've said. I was raised on punk, it's still my favorite genre of music, but i also know just how cliquey it can be.
Lol I just replied with the same quote. It's crazy that one of the most punk rock songs is completely anti-punk. Only Jello and DK could have pulled something like that off.
Bingo. If the views you espouse are also endorsed by the MSM, mega corporations, the banking sector, academia, the entertainment industry and entire wings of government then you aren't some brave rebel clapping back at the establishment. You are a pawn of the establishment.
No such thing as "left wing corporations" they are Neo-liberals and are center right leaning, the values of the true left are personal freedom, workers having an equal share in the method of production and it's benefits, civil rights and justice for all, not just the wealthy. Punk/alt music has always been politically left leaning, but corporations have appropriated the imagery and optics of subcultures and minorities while doing nothing to support their actual struggles or progress.
There's a classic Finnish punk song called "What is Punk?" from 1978 which already called out the whole punk culture. Here's a loose translation: *Verse:* "Make yourself a punk-shirt With instructions from a magazine. Put a safety pin through your cheek Though it hurts Cut yourself a green mohawk Kick everything down Bite, spit, riot Pick a fight and destroy." *Chorus:* "What is punk? Not this. Forget about teenage trends made by business men. Real punk is about fighting for yourself. Don't be like others, just be yourself." *Pelle Miljoona & N.U.S - Mitä on Punk?*
We have a similar song in Czechia, Visací zámek - Známka punku (the sign of Punk) "He wore his gumboots inside out, he thought it was a sign of punk He walked around chewing on a chicken claw, he thought it was a sign of punk He would always let the bus go when it was full, he thought it was a sign of punk He did not take care of the flowers in his garden, he thought it was a sign of punk. But girls said that punk was elsewhere But girls said that punk was elsewhere But girls said: Are you kidding me?" It's less preachy and more comedic, it does not critique alt-consumerism, the message is more "Trying to be an utter fuckup does not make you punk" It was one of only three or five huge punk-mainstream crossover hits here, so the message was heard loud and clear.
Punks don't have a problem with that though. But they do criticize when bands sell themselves through the very corporate music industry that DIY punk opposes.
@@xbfdx988unfortunately there are a LOT of punks like that. Just like any community you have 50% of people who don't get it, aren't inclusive and just kinda suck
@xbfdx988 if you want to make music your career, you are going to have to "sell out" in some way or another. Playing underground shows to 30 people isn't a sustainable business model.
@@skilldeadly8888 punk bands obviously are rarely interested in making music a career and it's not a business to them. But some do like the subhumans and still never have their music released by corporate labels. It's something worth doing it the artists value things besides money.
It's crazy hearing this in 2024. 30 years ago Lagwagon wrote one of my all time favorite songs called Know It All "the bands are good till they make enough cash to eat food and get a pad, then they've sold out and their music's cliche, cause talents exclusive to bands without pay." I would show this to all my southern California punk friends who thought every punk band except theirs were sellouts. The ending of the movie SLC Punk also seems to sum this up the same way. Love that you're shining light on it, Finn. Keep up the good work, Brother.
Oh wait so by intentionally not labelling yourself, you're more punk than people that label themselves punk? I wish I had concerned that in high school, as I've always been kind of slow to embrace the commercialization of that stuff.
I've been wrestling with this cognitive dissonance around punk for quite a while. I love the music, and love the idea of what punk states to stand for, but I was never accepted by scene kids because I didn't want to dress or act like they did. The self-defeating flagellation that a lot of punk people fall into is exhausting, and I didn't really want any part of that. I guess what I'm saying is thank you for speaking things I've been feeling for a while. I'm glad I'm not alone in how I feel about it all.
I remember getting called a poser at a Bad Religion show back in the day because I was wearing khaki's or something similar. I guarantee I knew and loved that band so much more then then they did. That's always stuck with me.
One time I was at a punk show chilling outside the venue with my friends. A punk rock girl all dressed up punk rock gear asked me why I was there. I was like I'm here for the music. She just looked at me crazy. I wasn't all decked out in Punk rock Wear. I was wearing a polo with jeans and boots. Then she realized I actually was serious. I never thought I had to look like xyz person. I'm my own person and dress how I want. That to me is punk.
Most of the California punk bands that I loved dressed like normal dudes. Circle Jerks, Agent Orange, DK, Pennywise, and Bad Religion all didn’t look “punk.” So the style gatekeeping from the fans always perplexed me.
@@devenscience8894 The weirder thing is that there are plenty who insist all those who dress the part are posers "because punk isn't a uniform", and that people should all dress like normal people like how their scene dresses, not realising that's just as much a uniform as the classic punk look.
I used to be a correction officer at a medium security prison. The inmates there followed the "thug life" and many were convinced they were the next hip hop superstar. Thug life is shallow and materialistic, yet the inmates thought they were living by a deep philosophical street code. It also has a harsher and more immediate dead end than punk ever did.
I know what you mean here. The strange thing is that there are a lot of rappers giving positive messages if you look, but they don't get the same success. Negativity sells.
"so we all keep dreamin' / we aint alive as long as theres a prison guard still breathin. so we all keep schemin, we dont get tired we get even. (quote from folk punk pioneer Pat the Bunny, and things like the stanford Prison Study give it creedence )
@@Rock_Bottom_DenizenI can’t sleep anyway Wolves haunt my living room They keep me up all night Howling at the moon And I’d still be on the outside Of the community we’re building But that could never change Any society’s a prison To me ❤
Thank you for your bold and nuanced opinion. As a fanatical metalhead who's developed a taste for literally any and every form of music, I deeply relate. Gatekeeping elitism is so beyond juvenile and prevents us from reaching our full potential. Open wide and embrace. This universe is vast.
there's no way you could have a taste for any and every form of music. in particular, religious and tribal groups have forms of music that no outsider is allowed to hear. you can't have a taste for the secret initiation-into-manhood songs of a New Guinean tribe, unless you are a male member of that tribe of sufficient age.
@perfectallycromulent I mean I guess you're right. l'm human. 🤷♂️ I was just trying to say that I've found there to be a season and mood for everything I've heard and you can grow to appreciate almost anything.
1:01 I realized exactly that after seeing Adam Curtis' documentary, Century of the Self. In the third part he talks about how counterculture (hippies) of the 60s were anticorporation, which to that point had essentially produced mass good for a world that young people felt disconnected from; the world of their parents. Not long after, the corporations figured out they could actually sell personal identity to the hippies, and oh did they. I never looked at a Hot Topic the same way.
wait till you figure out that even the first wave of rebellion was also just a product hand-crafted to subvert their societies, no different from the "corporate" flavor of 2nd wave.
maybe because they take Punk not as just a mere form of self-expression or subculture, but more as a philosophy and way of life. A youth subculture is obviously less serious than a profound philosophy. So if older punk rockers look at punk as a way of life, then they will naturally take it very seriously. I assume you think of punk as a mere subculture, and if so, I'd disagree because even subculture (as all cultures do) develop philosophies and ways of life that can be very profound. Punk Rock is absolutely no exception to this, especially after having a little under a half-century to develop a philosophical way of life. In fact, Punk Rock has been philosophical since the beginning. It's like Socrates but a post-modern socially-critical music genre.
@@dalime605 fun for fun's sake only satisfies ones lower qualities of psyche (IE the appetites/passions, and emotions/spirited attribute of soul). Pro*fun*dity is better, because it's not just fun for fun's sake, but also is intellectually and logically engaging (IE it engages all 3 faculties of soul, uniting it in harmony within the contemplation of profound truths).
It's funny because criticism of gatekeeping is popular in the scene today, but only in reference to clothes or subgenre. Gatekeeping for opinions, even the most insignificant culture issues, has skyrocketed. SOOOOO many people are out there deeming themselves the arbiters of what does or doesnt disqualify you from being punk. So really nothing's changed.
I feel like the British anarcho-punk scene from the late 70s/early 80s is weirdly positive especially bands like subhumans etc. Spreading the message you don't have to follow the 'system' but still promoting ways to be kind to each other in terms of wealth and being mindful about where your clothes are made and the food you consume. It's almost positive but negative at the same time??? These kind of bands definitely didn't promote violence etc either which was a good way to somewhat peacefully spread a message. Bands like crass etc are still very much relatable to this day too
Anarcho-punk scene was very inspiring for me in terms of opening my mind to new ways of thinking. There's definitely a lot of gems throughout punk and hardcore that aren't so pessimistic. Upright Citizens "Open Eyes, Open Ears, A Brain To Think & A Mouth To Speak" always comes to mind when I think of positive punk.
THE PROBLEM WITH FINN: "Punk is about making the world a better place" Say's who? MBA you're not, dude. Misfits, Fear, Dead Kennedys all had different vibes and messages, but if they don't fit Fin's 5th grade idealism, like the way Green Day and Blink 182 do, who's politics are totally inline with schools and media, then Fin has a problem with them because they must be close minded, unlike Finn..I understand.
@@RIVALContentJammerz As far as I'm concerned the defining factors of punk are fast-paced simplistic rock music and a DIY ethic. Everything else is just gravy. You have nihilisitic bands, hopeful bands, political bands, apolitical bands, drunk bands, sober bands, hateful bands, peaceful bands. All of those things have been expressed in punk. I don't like each type of band equally but I'm not gonna be out here deciding who is and isn't punk beyond the two criteria I stated at the top, and even then that's just MY definition, and the one I find the most consistent with the historical record. But I'm a nerd like that. Funnily enough, I think Tim Armstrong said it best when asked "Who's a punk?", he said: "I dunno, I'm not a cop." As far as punk being measured by what's consistent with the media and academia, that's a horrible metric for anything. You might as well give away your brain and let others do the talking for you. Ideas and practices should stand on their own merit, not whether they're adopted by some organization I'm supposed to be for or against. That's an inversion of the 'appeal to authority' logical fallacy. It reeks of a total lack of critical thinking.
@feathersmcgraw4090 Questioning authority was a HUGE a element of punk, remember? To come at me with the clichés of "logical fallacy" and "lack of critical thinking" is beyond weak. It's what critical thinking IS.
@@RIVALContentJammerz I'm telling you to be more rigorous about how you question authority. This is what I mean by a lack of critical thinking. That's okay though, I'm happy to clarify.
Punk was supposed to be about fighting for freedom of expression and thought against the hierarchy but instead it turned into a status and costume 🤦♀️
@@archiemisc no, it wasn't - the 'uniform' and the jockeying for position on the 'scene' started after punk came to the attention of the mainstream media, circa late 1976 / early 1977.
@@replicant_7774 Like everything else in society, like those who try too hard to look normal, to fit in with the current IDGAF how I look street look and terrified someone might not think they are heterosexual enough.
When I was a teen in 2006, my friends and I were into punk rock. One day, I shared that I liked Coldplay, Maroon 5, and other popular bands, and I got made fun of. I found this reaction very un-punk. Now at 33, my young cousin is getting into alternative music. I advise him to explore all kinds of music and not limit himself. I'm glad for my time in punk rock - it taught be how to look at things differently and to think creatively - but I'm even more glad I didn't get so deep into it that I'd end up as a shitty person lol
First example I thought of was Nirvana. Weren't considered a punk band after Nevermind. Kurt even struggled with this image of not being "punk rock" enough.
Kurt was like the ultimate misfit growing up and in his personal life. Can't even imagine what it's like to be idolized or reviled by pretty much everyone in the world with that background.
Attaching your identity to some music genre is basically like attaching your identity to which ikea table you like. It's just not likely going to work out in figuring out who you really are yourself, detached from all the (music) categories
I’ve found it’s a double edge sword. I’ve meet some of the most inspiring and motived people from the larger umbrella of punk. I’ve also met some of the most defeatist negative people to. The positive ones take the concept of DIY, hard work and run with it, achieving amazing things in their lives. The negative ones stay stuck. You gotta know when artists are letting off steam when they write a negative song. Don’t base your life around the lyrics of someone venting their issues. Take the positive messages of the culture and apply that to your life.
I remember being in a band with a dude who ran a punk house back in the 00s. The guys who lived there were all in bands, put on shows, organized events. They were able to accomplish so much, but on a personal level, none of them had their shit together at all and none of them ever used that same energy to build any kind of decent life for themselves. It's a weird dynamic and while I'm happy I was part of that scene, I'm also happy I never let it become a guiding force in my life
@@thiev__v5398 sure. The guy in my band bounced around between minimum wage jobs, never went to college, and spent every single night drunk and/or high. He eventually just up and left to move to California to move in with a girl he only knew online. They'd never even met. The rest of them had similar issues with drinking, and looked down on anyone who was trying to find success within the framework of society. Everything they approved of had to be underground, and nothing in pop culture was ever acceptable. They even considered bands like Bane or Strung Out to be sellouts because you could actually find their albums in stores. None of them seemed to consistently hold down a job because they just didn't care about anything but the punk scene, so they were awful employees. It's one thing to go through a phase where you live that way, but some of these guys were around 30 years old
@@thiev__v5398As someone who's been in bands since I was 17 and is just now getting his life together in his 30's, it usually means heavy addiction issues, drinking all night sleeping all day, rotating jobs often cause youre just there to earn a paycheck to pay rent and buy beer. Actual relationships fall apart cause you just don't have your shit together and you're not taking care of your health. If you can't take care of yourself how can anyone expect you to help take care of them type deal. No school, dead end jobs, and failed relationships have been my personal life til now and I'm absolutely not alone. I did make some cool music and travelled around and saw some dope shit though. I've certainly got stories to tell. But it's not sustainable. Nobody wants to be the dude at 40 who never fucking changed, you just become a burden to other people.
@@Ant-gu6vz I totally agree, but the guys I'm talking about were struggling in every aspect of their lives outside of being leaders in the punk scene. If they were cool with trying to get by on a part time minimum wage job then good for them. But they were all drinking and using drugs because they were miserable in every other aspect of their lives
GenXer, too. I remember us just arbitrarily deciding punk died in 1985, and anything after that point wasn’t really punk, just poser crap. It’s nonsense obviously, but a lot of us got really worked up over the idea
Irony is from what you said is that punk made me a more "normal" person. It helped me explore myself and society. It didn't cut me off but helped me grow.
I really feel ya on the "uniform" of punk aspect. I always enjoyed the variety of styles that the alternative scene created. I was consistently bummed that, despite spending time going to basement shows and playing in punk bands and having a lot of punk friends, I never got to "be in the club" because I liked goth and emo and dressed very feminine(bizarre considering how important that was for me finding my identity in a scene supposedly all about that, and also because it was macho bullshit) As for the negativity aspect regarding having a political or social message I think what is missing is balance. Identifying and speaking out about things wrong with the world is a great thing, but you have to offer another vision and encourage people to pursue it, not just wallow in the injustice of it all. I'm often reminded of Chumbawumba(bear with me!). They were a band with strong political convictions who followed those throughout their career. They were often participating in protests and activism and they regularly took major label money and spent that on supporting independent music despite those labels objections. They flew the black and red over the BRIT awards and even poured water over the Prime Ministers head. They played a wide and weird variety of music and managed to be very successful while doing so. They are also best known for writing a dumb, silly, and very fun drinking song that was a pop hit. Probably pretty popular with the kinds of folks you wouldn't expect the band to see eye to eye with on things. And who cares? Its a fun song, they were successful doing what they want and writing hits at the same time. They got tons of crap from "real punks" who never achieved half of the political work they did *and* never wrote a massively successful pop hit. Why can't ya do both? There is absolutely *nothing* anarchist about not being able to write a stupid, catchy drinking song or to have said song be popular. The people who complain likely don't do much of anything besides complaining and they should be forgotten
A mate of mine knew a few of the members of Chumbawumba and I ended up being introduced to them at a gig...Danbut Nobacon walked away from me cos I introduced myself as Ackbut Nomeatpie...Alice was very nice though 😜
Theres a small club of punks in my area of which I am a part of (abt 100 of us), which still upholds the original views of punk, but sadly the majority of modern "punks" don't sadly follow that lifestyle anymore. It is honestly sad. We're constantly growing, our group, and we actively encourage people to join up no matter what subculture you belong to, metalhead, emo, hippie, goth, scene, grunge, classic punk, etc, I think all punk scenes should be like that.
Thanks Finn, this is the content I've been waiting for you to create! I've shared the video with all my old punk friends and we all agreed with your vision. We still enjoy punk rock, but it doesn't mean we have to put up with the bullshit and the gatekeeping.
Punks are supposed to be independent thinkers who pave their own way, but instead they are often highly sensitive and unstable adult children a la William Joseph Armstrong and Henry Rollins
I feel like the exact same thing can be said about the metal scene as well. We get so full of greasy dogmatic losers who are all consistently racing to the bottom and be edgier than thou. And I was no different there. Midlife has offered me the chance to look back and be embarrassed that it took me some 15ish years to pry my head from my ass. I’m grateful for all the friends and experiences that I had in the scene but i too often wonder how happy and different I’d be if I when I heard it back in the nineties I just thought like a normal person “Why are they screaming? Can we listen to that new 3rd eye blind?”
Great video. As a Dad who's made his living teaching guitar and recording bands for cheap, I took my kids to punk shows when they were still in grade school. My daughter now 21 plays in bands and puts on and plays house shows with diverse acts, and she's happy. The value of punk is in what you take from it. For many of us it was the courage to find happiness outside the norms. Now that Warped is gone, the commercialism withering, it will be left to those who embrace that spirit. It just gets derailed every dozen years when it becomes marketable.
@@thehorriblebright it's punk to not know your instrument and play like you do know. Metal is about being tight and precise. And that's why it's basically illegal to add fills or make 4 minute punk songs.
I can relate to a lot of the grievances punk comments on, but for how much the scene revolves around social commentary, there's not much talk about solutions. Punk is basically the "anger" stage of grief and rarely moves past that.
I want to start a band thats still fun and angry about how fucked everything is but also raise awareness of solutions at shows and through social media. I'm near seattle if this ever becomes a reality or anyone is interested LOL. I play drums
This made me remember my best friend from high school, a punk goth who loved painting, punk rock, and booze. We grew apart when I started my Philosophy undergrad, and I never heard from him again. He's an absolute ghost with no digital footprint whatsoever except scattered comments ("an extremely talented, but sorely bitter alcoholic," "a broken genius," and stuff like that) on blogs or tweets mentioning him by people who have met him over the years. I still miss him, but his negativity was toxic on every conceivable level.
Bro, thank you for making this video. In my experience being from Savannah, GA where there used to be a decent size punk/hardcore scene I used to think all those kids were so cool. One day, I ended up being around a lot of them because of a girl I was dating and holy shit… everything they believed in was backwards. Being a homeless alcoholic was somehow more virtuous than having a stable job, sleeping with random people 3-4 nights a week and being in a first name basis with the nurses at the free clinic was cooler than being married with a family and etc. There is a lot I love about many many different subcultures and was a part of (to some degree) but some of the worst people I’ve ever met in my life were punk kids and EDM/festival kids (wooks and hippies). There are plenty of terrible people from all walks of life and great people from punk/EDM scenes but I mention those two specifically because they both preach things that are VERY different than what they practice. I’m at a red light and typing fast so forgive any typos or incoherency lol
I love all the genres of punk! My favorite is folk punk. I found people who can relate to me. Addicts and homelessness and loneliness. There’s a bond in that loving community.
Finn I am LOVING your most recent vids on the main channel! Love that you are breaking the mold and making content with your personality as the driver again. I hope you keep doing it.
I used that issue of MaximumRocknRoll, "Should Bands Sign to Major Labels", for an essay in college. R.I.P. Steve Albini. Short answer: For probably most bands, signing to a major label was a mistake.
@@mike04574 thanks for mentioning Steve Albini. I had to look him up. I wasn't as much into grunge or bigger bands. But, that guy's story is a great one and he knew what he was doing.
I was really into punk music when I was younger, but I wasn't a punk. And I wasn't part of the scene because there was no scene where I grew up. What appealed to me with punk was the DIY attitude and aesthetic, and just the raw power and energy of the music. All other genres of music just seemed way too produced and contrived. It was also very empowering to know that people who were a year or two older than me were in bands with records out, that teenagers were putting out records and touring. Seeing a DIY punk band's record on display at the local record shop right next to a Bruce Springsteen or Michael Jackson record was awe-inspiring. I felt nothing could be more punk than that right there.
@@paravan2000 minimalism, diy ethic, practicing and facilitating mutual aid, social activism, disconnecting from Money as much as possible in the present, etc etc
tbf, Johnny Lydon is notoriously difficult to get along. He's been very active and vocally right-wing so I think that is why a lot of posters on here keep referencing him. I'm not sure if that's a factor for you. Lydon is good at being controversial. That's unchanged.
Funny considering how Pete Townsend reacted to first seeing The Sex Pistols, you would think they would have learned something about how not to handle that.
@@frankfinnsweenryan Does the name 'Rotten' mean anything to people in the USA? If you know anything about him is that he hates Tories You can always trust Johnny to live up to his name, his songs are always the cold hard truth and no flowery BS. He will always say things to upset people and why he is so hated by the establishment, after all no member of parliament or congress has threatened to have any members of Green day hung at traitors gate, or beaten up by razor gangs.
A lot of those “fuck the conformity” songs were written by kids. Punk music is filled with juvenile thinking. Enjoy the sentiments but don’t much it your road map for life.
45yrold here. I've mainly listened to punk since my early teens. I was deep in it. I always say it ruined my life. Now, I know it's all on me, but it definitely contributed to my mentality for all these years. There still some good to it with political awareness, but the lowlife low class lifestyle is what I leaned on as a cruch being from an impoverished background. I kept this attitude for most of my life. It's hurt me and the people around me. I still listen to some, and I do get nostalgic. I also think it's weird that the older bands are still trying to make music, (what are they so mad about), but I'd still go see them. 😂
Being a loser = punk was always punk rocks' achilles heel and doomed it to self destruct eventually. Eventually, people figure out that being a pessimistic quitter and loser kinda sucks.
I think it was an exaggerated stereotype more than anything else. Punk = loser, Harvard degree, white coats and big houses = winner. Of course, then along came Dexter Holland with his private jets :)
Being punk or HC is also about never giving up. I looked up one day and saw it was up to me You can only be a victim if you admit defeat - Descendents - Coolidge The kids have gone their own way. Seems that they have nothing to say. On the outside, beaten and sore, but what’s inside is the heart of the core. Leeway - Stand For
This is the most accurate depiction of the punk scene, and I couldn't agree more. It hasn't changed or evolved since. I've met great people through it, found a place that gave me a sense of belonging as you had mentioned where I encountered diy, but with time realized that most are toxic and carry an elitist mentality that censors true open-minded thinking. I've stepped away from it and am happy to have done so, as thankfully I am now sober because of it and realized how much I need to get my life together. Thanks for sharing this video, as it is most truthful yet enlightening. Keep up the good content, my friend.
Personally I don't care if a punk band makes money, the problem is when they're all about the money, ripping people off, posing as poor while they have trust funds etc.
First , I grew up and I defined punk as "it's mean, sloppy, and everybody knows, the bassist isn't playing" now I think punk is just rock minus a stable format as to how you gotta write it out. There are still definitions about punk but they are lesser and lesser to me at least. *Just to any bassists, most of the time as a bassist you're allocated to follow the root note and you're done.
That's a load of bollocks. Most classic Rock and Metal has bass players pumping out roots, or following the guitar riff, which is the main event. A lot of punk has the guitar just chugging 8th note power chords, often with harmonic rhythms that span bars. This opens up a lot of space for the bass and I can name a lot of virtuoso bass players that came out of punk. Because the guitar has a more limited role, punk mixes well with other bass forward genres. There is ska punk, but there is no ska metal.
"Punk is just rock minus a stable format" misses the whole social and political reasons why punk came into life in the first place. Keeping in mind that "punk rock" is just one of the means of expression of the punk culture, so there's got to be some ideals within the music.
Thank you for talking about this and other similar subjects. Videos where you talk about these types of things are my favorites. No one seems to talk about this stuff and its super important that someone starts. Nothing will change otherwise.
This hit so close to home. I often lament that I let my punk friends shame me for being interested in philosophy, economics, and history. I was so worried about losing what I thought was my only support network in a small town that I hobbled myself, and I’ve had to do a lot of catching up in adulthood. Glad I’m making my way now, but often reflect on how this scene was a net negative in my life.
Great video. Jim Adkins said "The Middle" was written (in part) in response to an email he got from a teen girl who said that she was feeling left out and ostracized by the punk clique at her school who said she wasn't punk enough.
I used to turn up to DIY punk shows wearing tees from many other genres from Sepultura to Beastie Boys to Peter Gabriel and none of the people who were actually "maintaining the scene" (actually putting on show, running distros, writing 'zines) cared (they would just look and go, "oh, that's just Grant") but the people who did nothing and were playing at being punker than everyone complained.
I'm 45 now and have really grappled with some of this too. I came out of more the anarcho/crusty scene and alcoholism is just so rampant and promoted to so much of the scene outside of hardcore. I got into punk because I felt like an outsider in my country town, and it opened up my world in some ways, but then led me down maybe not the greatest path from there. Somewhere along the way it stopped being about fun and I had to step back and take a look at what I loved about punk in the first place and re-embrace the dumb fun sweaty dancing days and te DIY spirit.
This is all so true. I got into ‘punk’ through discovering Green Day when I was 14 in 2009. So definitely a long time after they made it big and broke through into the mainstream. They are the reason I started playing guitar and joined bands in my teens and paved the way for my future passion for music throughout my life. Through them I discovered Punk/ other punk bands and what Punk stands for. The DIY BELIEF is what I believe is the most important part of the scene.
As someone in the the punk scene for the last 25 years playing in bands I can safely say the punk scene is the most toxic music scene of any. This is even more true the last decade. This was a great video by the way.
As an artist, this is a very healthy take on the music industry as a whole. Disclaimer: no one has ever thought of me and what I do as punk. That said, any artist who has ever created music, has dreamted of supporting themselves and their family simply by making music. Of the flip side, songs like story of my life are important too. They are often just honest thoughts set to music. Love your channel and your take on music as a whole.
Never ever referred to myself as a punk rocker but it’s almost always been around me for as long as I can remember. I was 12 in ‘76 London when my mate played me Sex Pistols NMTB. 7 years later I was 19 in Fullerton, O.C., CA discovering Social Distortion. I recently turned 60 and, I realised, I just never cared about money or power or material crap. No kids but never wanted them and would have been a useless GenX parent - the same people who sowed the seeds of the current cultural quagmire. Otherwise, happy with no regrets; I have lived, and nearly died, a lot.
Exactamundo! Finn's values seem to skew heavily materialistic-- success, career, marriage, money. I dunno that he ever learned the punk ethos at all. But then, we the ambition-impaired are the way we are regardless of any ethos. I just never gave a shit about money & status symbols possessions. I'm 50, I live in a room, I'm busted flat & I am happier now than I ever was when I hadda bit of money & was attempting to fit myself into the conventional bourgeois mode of living.🦃✊🦃✊🦃✊🦃
The term “PUNK” is ridiculous in the first place… All the classic bands like Sex Pistols, the damned, CBGB bands and Ramones never considered themselves “PUNK”, they really just wanted to play like the rockabilly artist in the 50s and early 60s. Reject the 70s yacht and 7 minute songs and just play stripped down rock n roll. 🤷🏽♂️
This seems to happen a lot, grunge for example- explain to me how the hell Mudhoney and Alice In Chains are the same genre. Outside of being dirty looking and using distorted guitars they’re completely different styles of music, but people lump them together when they don’t have another ready made category. The Sex Pistols and Ramones, same thing. The only real similarity is that they both played fast, simple songs, but the Sex Pistols were fashion mannequins full of champagne anarchy and the Ramones were making songs about going to the beach. (I know they did do some political songs like “Bonzo goes to Bitburg” but I think my point stands)
I mean it’s retroactive naming. Tony Iommi of Black Sabbath said the band wasn’t Heavy Metal but it certainly fits all the criteria. When you’re the first to do it, you don’t know what to call yourself.
Good insights, Finn! And just so you know; you were wondering if you would've been better off never being a part of the punk scene, but because of it, you have something incredibly valuable now: wisdom with a story to back it up. Because of your experience and your realizations, you have a story to tell so that others can avoid some of the stumbles and pitfalls you had to go through; your advice can be an incredible blessing to others.
Don’t often comment - but I love your take on this. Too much group think and woe is me going on for sure. I admire you got yourself out of the bullshit and created a life you’re happy to live.
@@dr.juerdotitsgo5119 because now is very difficult to 'stay in the streets' when all that streets are gentryfied now. Raybeez lived at the times when NY was a f---ed up and cheap place to live and play, now Lower East Side is not a rough place anymore, CBGB is closed, and even NYHC veterans have their own businesses to stay on the road and they are far, far away from the street life now. Also punk veterans who still playing since the 80's now talk that to be in a punk band now is harder then in their youth - everything became expensive, rent became expensive too, they have families to fed, so they now try to keep more money as possible.
@@pengvin86 Valid points. But regardless of how many bands are on their "anniversary/reunion tour" era, it doesn't change the true nature of punk/hardcore. Finn also made some valid points, although it's a mistake to approach "punk" the way he did, as if it was this one big thing; there are many different scenes, from different places and different eras. Furthermore, certain "dogmas" are necessary; it's what give something its own identity. Otherwise we end up with "always question everything", which is a paradox.
I'm 23 and I play in a punk/garage band and I just don't come to the same conclusions as Finn. I'm tired of all this debate. I love rockNroll but I feel that its spirit is more and more buried and at this point I just want to have fun and enjoy myself. I hate gatekeeping and the rockstar attitude. We don't owe anything to anyone, we sound and dress how we like. Some will say that it is a very simplistic conclusion but you know what? Sometimes things are that simple. I just want to wear my leather jacket and rock.
I wasnt around for the original punk movement. Never cared too much for punk music or style. But I was in and around every alternative subculture. As I've gotten older, and I still look for new music or the study about music movements, I cant help but I have an endearing respect for punk. If anything, its ethos lives on (or the idealized / romanticized version of it). Good things will always be ruined by bad people over time. Doesnt make the original goodness of the thing any less good. Either start over or pass the torch. And I think we still have people with a punk mindset out here today :)
And its funny, like with the Offspring, listen to their self titled, then Igniition, then Smash and tell me anything changed about their style. Same with Green Day. Dookie is a perfectly reasonable progression from their first two albums. They didn't change a damn thing, they just got better over time.
what a great video! As a 1978 born myself, I too went through many of the stages you presented in your video. In high school, I went from gang to gang because I listened to punk, thrash, prog, folk, grunge, alternative, industrial, trip hop (etc) in both French and English ... I never found found I fitted anywhere. There was always a lot of gatekeeping and not just from the punks ... metalheads where the same
Im the 90s kid that got into punk through Green Day and Rancid, but then i went deeper and found the Dead Kennedys and they changed my life. DK , well Jello really, help form my political veiws that i still hold 30 years later, dont always agree with him, but we dont always have to. And i do hate the "oh you're a sellout you signed to even a small label" why wouldnt you want your music heard? Just dont change your ethics. And also James Hetfeild said it best years ago, yeah we sold out, we sold out every show on this tour, and i know they arent punk, but thrash and punk are close cousins
Yeah, 90s punk who got really into the Epitaph/Fat bands (Bad Religion is still my favorite band today). With all due respect to Finn, I don’t relate to this at all. If anything, punk showed me that through education and engagement, we can make a difference. This video completely missed the mark for me
As a punk musician from San Francisco, I completely agree with you on so many levels. Thank you for being real, and having original thought. I have always seeked out individuals rather than groups or cliques. If I can be candid that's exactly how the scene here in the Bay Area has felt for the last 6 years, like the Mean Girls that I can't sit with at lunch. Thank you for all that you do Finn!
Finn, that first 2 minutes mirrors my experience, and a LOT of other people's. In my case it was moreso metal music, but there has always been that overlap between the two subcultures, especially post 2001. Don't even need to watch the entire video. Growing up is realizing that your counterculture is most likely a secular religion, and was/is quite literally part of normal mainstream culture. Nothing is new under the sun, yknow?
Just wanna say that this video is a slam dunk. I never thought to put some of this into words, as I felt I just naturally moved onto other music/scenes (although I definitely still enjoy punk/hardcore sometimes) but hearing someone else say this is hugely validating. Its hard to separate whats what when you're looking between the cool forward thinking groups of people in any scene from the permanent high schooler groups of people that seem to be all too common. Great video, instant sub
@IcoOst dude, the protestants were a punk-like movement in opposition to catholicism. Think about it. The catholics got too proggy and convoluted with their dogma so the protestants simplified the whole stuff and introduced the world to the "three-cord" doctrine. Lol
To anyone who says "I'm too punk to go to prom" or do XYZ: I literally went to no less than 6 different proms, and all but one of them I sported a mohawk, nail polish and black eyeliner. Just because you consider yourself "punk" doesn't mean you have to miss out on certain experiences in life. You can absolutely do non-punk things, just bring your own flavor to them.
I’ve always thought I was somewhat weird as I can go from listening to folk in the morning, punk at lunchtime , metal for late afternoon and chilled indie in the evening. I grew up thinking you were meant to only listen to one genre of music
So it isn't just me who changes their music taste for different times of the day. I like metal, metalcore, some punk, a bit of hip-hop/rap, folk, rock, electronic music, singer-songwriter acoustic stuff. I usually start with something more chill, then by the afternoon I'm ready for the heavy hitters, and then winding down in the evening again.
I learned to appreciate dub and reggae through bands like the clash/bad brains, rockabilly through X/the cramps, funk through gang of four/minutemen etc etc., i’ve never understood the notion that being into punk means you can’t listen to anything else, if anything it broadened my horizons more than they would be without it.
I was a punk. I am 60 now and have a successfyl corporate america job. I still love & listen to punk. I never did hard drugs, committed crimes or hurt myself.
I was born in 93, so my generation's outcast scene was the emo/scene shows. I feel similarly to you. I grew up with drug addict parents & while at first, emo music felt like something I could relate to, that felt like home, it became something that influenced me down a dark path. Self-harm, suicidal ideation, depression were all romanticized by these bands that I loved & my impressionable teenage brain wanted to emulate that. All my friends were depressed emo kids who cut themselves & it wasn't cool to find things that made you happy. It was cool to live in your anger & sadness. It had a profound effect on me & led me to doing things I don't think I would have otherwise done. It was a detour in my life that cost me precious time & I'm now 31 years old & a sophomore in college. Would I have already been well into my career by now if I hadn't taken that detour? I'll never know. But I did also learn some valuable lessons & skills from that detour. Those experiences shaped me & made me who I am & I don't take that for granted.
This is exactly why I stopped caring what others thought. I used to be that close-minded punk jerk and missed out on so much. Made a change when my friends played their music while dressing me down on why people just didn't like me. Now seeing the bs that happened with Eric Micklow, just reminds me on why I moved on
There’s a video out there called “Pop Punk Band Pick Their Favorite Blink 182 song”. While most bands are quick to answer, The Offspring act like they are “too cool” to actually like a Blink song, or don’t know any. I mean not everyone actually likes Blink, but to act unfamiliar/unsupportive of one of the most successful acts of your own genre seemed a little petty to me.
Love this video and topic. I'm a 34 year old woman who grew up in the punk scene and who has been struggling with identity a bit over the past couple of years for all of the reasons you spoke about. I've had a hard time vocalizing it and putting words to my feelings, so I really appreciate this
All hero worship too. I can name a dozen famous people who have fan bases that will not tolerate a single word said against them. Uncritically worshiping some guy because you like him and his work is not a good idea. For instance, I like Zappa, but I'm not going to pretend that he was perfect or that he didn't shit on many, many people throughout his life. But try telling your average Zappa fan that he cheated Bruce Bickford out of his life's work or that he cheated Beefheart out of money or that he cheated the original Mothers or that he kept some woman he was screwing in the basement of his family's home or that he was willfully ignorant of anything outside his comfort zone. And where are all those "unrealized manuscripts," by the way? Trunks full of them, FZ claimed.
Finn - Sooooo many thoughts on what you laid down here, I'll see if I can get a coherent comment out of them. TLDR: Generally I agree with your comments and applaud you for taking your shot at capturing the flaws in the "punk ideal." The issue I have with your analysis is that you're still stuck on the superficial. The punk "scene" was and is shallow but punk as art represented something much more broad than what the scene wanted to accept hence the gatekeeping. Look deeper to grasp the bigger picture man... Like you I'm a fan of music generally. I listen to most anything that I either identify with or enjoy the sound. Art is like that, very subjective. I listen to hardcore, ska, bubblegum/pop punk, country, bluegrass, jazz, hip hop, "nu metal" (what I call urban metal), hard rock/heavy metal, surfer punk, classical, oldies, industrial, electronica, the list goes on.... but I'm very very picky about those artists I consider "good" and those that are merely making commercial music that is bland and meaningless (ahem... Taylor Swift, any boy band). You're talking about the "scene" when it sounds like you were never really part of it in spirit even though that's what you wanted. You tried so hard to fit in but felt and feel rejected... Now you're complaining about "punk" because of something that was always a part of it... the scene. Stop trying to be like other people or wishing you were. Here's some more truth about the scene, it's mostly full of angry people who express their anger through Bolshevism, Fascism, Racism, and Atheism/Agnosticism. These collectivists and zealots hate religion and religious people; they live dead lives of anger and spite because they can't rise above their petty grievances and superficial analysis. They're just angry at how phony people are and want to express that anger. I took from "punk" what I wanted and left the rest. I am a Christian and was a Christian when I was attending underground shows here on the East Coast. I wasn't part of the red lace skinhead nazi crowd that showed up at unity core shows and started fights. I wasn't part of the unity core commies or the straight edge terrorist crowd either. I thought punks were fools for ragging on capitalism, religion, etc. and their scene bullshit irritated me to no end. What they were really raging about was "polite society" and the banality of it all. The conventions that they raged at were as much window dressing for polite society as the punks thought but the punks applied their rage even to sincere believers who were and are outside of polite society. In rejecting phony banality they They saw all these people they raged against as inauthentic phonies who played dress up to fit in and that angered them because they embraced who they were or couldn't escape it. Maybe West Coast punk and the associated scene is different but I think the premise holds true. Goths reflected the same sentiments in a more passive aggressive (feminine) format, which is why punks had so much antipathy for Goths. My philosophy teacher in high school called it "existential angst." I didn't get along with lots of people in "the scene" but I met a lot of friends there, like you. So what did I get out of "punk"... mostly I identified with the gritty, blue collar, rough around the edges sentiment portrayed in their songs. I, literally, grew up on the wrong side of the tracks (kid you not). I'm from a family that is forever divided by social status - one side consists of rich Germans well established in East Coast polite society - the other side consists of hillbillies/rednecks/Appalachian Americans that ventured out of the mountains in the 50s looking for work. Neither side accepts the other. The blend resulted in a local family dynamic that saw my grandparents, parents, and my family as never really accepted by either side. In the hills, we were "the brats from Baltimore" and at home we were "those damned hillbillies." I'm an intellectual redneck that lives and works in one of the tougher blue collar cities on the East Coast. The punk scene offered a haven of sorts because I could identify with their sentiments ("I miss the old New York!") where survival on the streets, feeling rejected by polite society, and making an altruistic living amongst all of the phonies and materialists was the ideal (look at the music made by Dropkick Murphy's, Agnostic Front, Sick of It All, etc). They wanted what religion had to offer but hated religion for it (irony alert) so they replaced it with other -isms that filled that void - something to believe in (H/T The Offspring). That is the macro punk perspective and what you were pining for but lost by getting caught up in scene politics. Instead of whining about "punk" and calling it bullshit, try to see the bigger picture. Embrace the art form for what it offers (to you) and discard the rest; accept it for what it is. F*** all of the scene bullshit politics. There is always a scene. As an adult in my 40s, the scene is now the corporate sphere where DIE, ESG, and political correctness are all the rage. Man... it's a struggle to fit in there as well because its all fake. These initiatives are nothing more than window dressing to achieve alternate, more nefarious goals: namely displacing producers who can expose the credentialed class for the frauds they are with grateful useful idiots that won't challenge the established hierarchy or, at least, will challenge it in the right way (getting rid of "undesirables" while promoting the "right kind" of people - sound familiar). Very few in leadership care about doing a good job or excellence in a craft. Go along to get along types who won't laugh and tell the emperor he has no clothes on; if you dare expose the regime for what it is, you're PNG just like back in the punk scene. :sigh: SMH In closing, a fair exposition on your part but I encourage you to look deeper and think in the macro or super-macro next time.
Whoa, mate…! I may not necessarily agree with your main point (at least as I see it, more on that anon). Yet, full chapeau bas for writing such a thoroughly thought, well-composed comment on an UA-cam video. You seem to be a dinosaur, bro. Good to know there’s at least two of us :) To the merit, then: I’m a Christian, too. And “think in the macro!” is exactly what I tell my apostatic, agnostic or flat out atheist friends. See the bigger picture. Embrace the core values. Still, it’s a friggin’ hard thing to do when yet again you hear of another priest who raped a bunch of pre-teens. Or another bishop who sold his soul for (admittedly) a bit more that thirty pieces of silver. Or another self-proclaimed worshipper of our Lord who - instead of spreading love, kindness and compassion - spits out hate and vitriol. It’s kinda similar with punk, isn’t it? BTW, I did with punk just what you did: grabbed what I found worth it, long ceased to give a fuck about the rest. As 40-odd-year-olds, we’re sorta privileged, aren’t we? We’re old and experienced. We no longer feel obliged to constantly prove our cred to our punk crew (or our parish, for that matter). What about younger and less experienced ones, though? See, what drew me to the PRMBA in the first place was the channel’s educational value. I mean, Wikipedia summaries aside, Finn has an uncanny ability to present and explain entertainment business phenomena. Moreover, he seems to be on a mission to educate younger scene members. To help them avoid the mistakes he himself has made. Unironically, I think it’s a noble cause. So, what about switching from macro to micro for a change and seeing that hypothetical punk lad, stuck in punk negativity, surrounded by and drawing inspiration from all the wrong kinds of attitudes? I guess Finn is speaking much more to him than to us, 40-odd years old geezers ;)
I grew up to become an engineer. My background as a drummer touring in a punk band is a double-edged sword. I work harder than most, I can always make things work, photoshop, videos, etc. The DIY ethics have been huge for me. The catch is I tend to clash with almost everyone who has any kind of authority and approach everything purely from an altruistic standpoint. I have a reputation of being the go to guy for almost anything except furthering a business agenda which makes entering management or progressing my career further pretty challenging. I'll still continue because I think it's the right thing, but have become aware that I don't know how to manage management vs. engineering decisions because I choose engineering 95% of the time.
Punk isn't a sound, and it certainly isn't a look, it's a state if mind. That's why I consider Tiny Tim, Public Enemy, and Phil Ochs to be "more punk" than, say, Green Day, Blink 182, or Sum 41.
Blink 182 said "we are going to do this shit, this way, be successful and not give a solitary shit what you think about it." Few bands are more punk rock that Blink.
![[UA] NAVI vs MOUZ | BO5 | IEM Rio 2024](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/CMBYk0cbGoA/mqdefault.jpg)
Reminds me of the south park clip where the goth kid says
"All you have to do to be a non conformist is dress like us, act like us, and listen to the same music as us."
Which reminds me of being in a punk band in high school.
Our singer told me not to wear metal merchandise because "that's not punk". Fuck off Mikael, I'll wear what I want!
Yes!😂😂😂
Conformist 🙄
Further back in time, Monty Python expressed the same idea in their movie Life of Brian.
Brian is mistaken for a prophet and unintentionally attracts followers. Brian says to the crown in one famous scene; you are all individuals. The crowd repeats; yes WE are all individuals except for one who says I'm not.
as much as I love South Park, they get it wrong on their depiction of goth and emo being the same. Goth's enjoy the darkness, celebrate it. Don't wallow in suburban teenage depression.
But here’s the thing: bands don’t need to support themselves or their families. They need to just stay underground to support my need to gatekeep
HERE'S THE THING
*It ain’t much but it’s honest work*
Newsflash people!
Exactly!
How else will the normies know their taste is trash and beneath you? 😂
I'm 67 years old and have been into punk ever since I first heard the Sex Pistols on FM radio back in 1977. When I say I was into punk I mean the music & the lyrics and not the "scene." Where I lived and at my age, I didn't know anyone into punk rock. And I am the type of person who didn't have many friends and still don't. In fact, I don't have any real friends now apart from family and my fiancee but I'm okay with that. The thing about punk rock is that there are so many different flavors and I like that. There's some flavors I don't care for and some I really love. To each his/her own and nobody should be criticized about what flavors they're into.
100 percent
I'm 45 and always loved punk rock, and hated punks.
We are a lot alike, except I'd go further. People thought I was into punk, but I was into the Pistols. They were the only band for me that said a no that sounded like a yes. There was no dogma of specific politics laid down. John was a working class freak, and Steve was a useless theif, and they led by example their way out of their fate. That is the appeal of punk to me, not an ethos of being violent and negative and defeatist.
It's understanding that punk at its core was all about aggressive rebellion against fascist authority.
Punks used to say fuck the police. Now they say do as the police tell you and put on your woke mask before you offend someone
I once saw Finn respond to a troll with “of course it isn’t punk, nothing is punk. Only you are punk.” And it was one of the best direct hits I’ve ever seen. This fkn scene man 😂😂😂
Hahaha
I once saw Finn eating a candy bar with a fork
@@RumoursOfFamine I once saw Fin with a man who was wearing a cape
I once saw Finn.
@@coltennial9513
Touché
I wore cargo shorts and a Vans shirt to a NOFX show once (I was already in my 20s by then) and was glared at by 16 year olds in spiky leather jackets and ripped up thrift store jeans. It was like 90 degrees outside and these kids really cared about "looking the part" over their own comfort. Long story short, I had an awesome time and guess who else was wearing cargo shorts and a Vans T-shirt? Fat Mike.
That's literally what kids wear in the hard core scene now
@@anthonyrivas4743 Yeah this would have been in like 2002 maybe. I'm almost Finn McKenty old.
The look is very meaningful and important to a 16 year old. If they're doing it in their 20s, then I'd be concerned lol
Yeah but Fat Mike is probably one of the most hated people in the punk world
Haha I loved reading this story…I can relate, I was fired from a gig once for just doing load in with gym shorts on. 😂
This is exactly the kind of video that made me fall in love with this channel, this mix of criticism, music history and psychology just feels special, like I have not found another channel that feels like that and I'm glad I can start watching the main channel again for other reasons than supporting you and your family ❤️
Not nearly enough likes on this comment.
Straight facts. When I got into punk I thought it was an inclusive thing. And maybe 25% of it was. But the other 75% or so was just the same as every other group of people, judging and trashing everyone who didn't look like them or had money or didn't party. Straight facts Finn
Right on man. I think we humans get involved in anything we do for that 25%of good wheat. The rest is chaff that you fine in anything. Being able to glean that wheat from the chaff is the difference from finding joy in what we do, and always being miserable.
There is a reason why the word ‘punk’ is used as an insult. Enough said.
No one was more status conscious than punks! 😂😂😂 Bro, punks I knew were ALWAYS complaining about who was punk enough and who was not. 😂😂😂
I once got into it with some "skinheads" who got upset that people who weren't familiar with it thinking they were neo-nazis. Ultimately they admitted it was all about the "fashion" and that I was a "poser" because I didn't wear shitty clothes and wasn't a junkie lol
I also dislike the hostility towards other styles of music. I loved punk, but I also love classic rock, blues rock, metal, etc. It got annoying when friends acted so dramatic because I "wasn't being punk" when they found me listening to ZZ Top lol
The most punk thing you can do is just be yourself.
No, it is not, and please stop saying this inane cliché.
@@jimrustlewow you disagree with another person’s perception yet do not state anything to explain your view. How punk of you.
@@thesean3194 jim is just being himself 🤷 who are we to question his punk credentials
@@jimrustleit is tho. Capitalism doesn't want you to be yourself so when u are it's badass
facts
Hey man I’m 38 and I had this exact thought the other day. Literally was on my mind all day “ if I didn’t get into punk would I have done better in life instead of being where I’m at now?” I also wasn’t active in social life at school because I was “too punk” to go to prom or fall dance or care about graduation. Delayed college ( have only taken a couple semesters ) and surrounded myself with likeminded negative outlook people. Up until my early 30s did I finally stop listening to punk and started having a different outlook on life. Much like in the way you described in the video. Thank you for this.
Oh man , you lived my same experience. Yeah man I was punk. Boots. Jeans. Black T shirts. Loser friends. Smoking cigarettes . Giving my parents hell. Obsessing with how I looked at all hours.mynhairb.. my hair... I had to "hate preppy kids'. A coworker told me he was going to study to be an accountant. I thought he was such. A square, a loser. Turns out I was the loser !!
Punk rock is for losers.
Bros blaming his life decisions on a genre of music rather than accepting that he could still be punk and not miserable
@@My_knob on a genre that promotes a negative outlook. Yes I’m going to put at least some blame on that. You surround yourself with negative it’s going to have an effect on your thinking and outlook then eventually your decision making. You missed the entire point of this video didn’t you.
I listened to punk when I was younger. I never got Into the scene or dress like people said I should. I listened to the bands went to the shows and then went home. I never had friends that listened to punk or any form of rock music so to me. I always did things on.my own.
Remember that video you did a few weeks ago about not knowing where to take the channel, and whether or not you should insert your personal opinions into videos? This video is how you should do it. This one ruled.
i thought the same thing. I feel like this video is all the stuff nobody is talking about and needed to be said.
As I ve just posted, I think that s probably one of the best Vids he´s ever made.
Totally agree
I don't always agree with everything Finn says but I usually learn something and sometimes change my mind. Only the mentally weak won't consider a different opinion.
Hell yeah brother!!!! This video sent those vibes!!! The return of the punk mba!!! Congrats to Finn!!!
To quote a certain punk "Punk's not dead, it just deserves to die
When it becomes another stale cartoon
A closed minded, self-centered social club
Ideas don't matter, it's who you know"
It saddens me that I do agree with everything you've said. I was raised on punk, it's still my favorite genre of music, but i also know just how cliquey it can be.
And that was written in the 80s. That's 40 years or so it's been around and nobody fucking listens
Lol I just replied with the same quote. It's crazy that one of the most punk rock songs is completely anti-punk. Only Jello and DK could have pulled something like that off.
Lol from Jello the hypocrite who did the left wing bidding during covid.
@@RickyRicardoRuiz Crass released this song in 1978: ua-cam.com/video/DcIOTRDswF8/v-deo.html
@@nickudeschini4812I listened, agreed, took what I enjoyed with me through life, and moved on. Imagine Sid Vicious at 35. 🤢
What pisses me off the most is how the punk scene turned into corporate left wing shilling basically.
Bingo. If the views you espouse are also endorsed by the MSM, mega corporations, the banking sector, academia, the entertainment industry and entire wings of government then you aren't some brave rebel clapping back at the establishment. You are a pawn of the establishment.
No such thing as "left wing corporations" they are Neo-liberals and are center right leaning, the values of the true left are personal freedom, workers having an equal share in the method of production and it's benefits, civil rights and justice for all, not just the wealthy.
Punk/alt music has always been politically left leaning, but corporations have appropriated the imagery and optics of subcultures and minorities while doing nothing to support their actual struggles or progress.
Amen,
Even in my land Germany like die Totenhosen and die Ärzte!
I admit i dont know much about punk!
They got full pro state and system!
There's a classic Finnish punk song called "What is Punk?" from 1978 which already called out the whole punk culture. Here's a loose translation:
*Verse:*
"Make yourself a punk-shirt
With instructions from a magazine.
Put a safety pin through your cheek
Though it hurts
Cut yourself a green mohawk
Kick everything down
Bite, spit, riot
Pick a fight and destroy."
*Chorus:*
"What is punk? Not this.
Forget about teenage trends made by business men.
Real punk is about fighting for yourself.
Don't be like others, just be yourself."
*Pelle Miljoona & N.U.S - Mitä on Punk?*
What you have described reminds me of a song called "Part Time Punks" by the Television Personalities. Check it out!
Can't forget this goldie:
"You're not a punk, and I'm telling everyone" -Jawbreaker
Kinda their version of Punk Is Dead by Crass
We have a similar song in Czechia, Visací zámek - Známka punku (the sign of Punk)
"He wore his gumboots inside out, he thought it was a sign of punk
He walked around chewing on a chicken claw, he thought it was a sign of punk
He would always let the bus go when it was full, he thought it was a sign of punk
He did not take care of the flowers in his garden, he thought it was a sign of punk.
But girls said that punk was elsewhere
But girls said that punk was elsewhere
But girls said: Are you kidding me?"
It's less preachy and more comedic, it does not critique alt-consumerism, the message is more "Trying to be an utter fuckup does not make you punk"
It was one of only three or five huge punk-mainstream crossover hits here, so the message was heard loud and clear.
"Teenage trends made by business men"
Great fuckin line!
Punks: we have a DIY attitude
*punk band gets famous writing and playing music themselves that people enjoy*
Punks: no, not like that
Punks don't have a problem with that though. But they do criticize when bands sell themselves through the very corporate music industry that DIY punk opposes.
@@xbfdx988unfortunately there are a LOT of punks like that. Just like any community you have 50% of people who don't get it, aren't inclusive and just kinda suck
@xbfdx988 if you want to make music your career, you are going to have to "sell out" in some way or another. Playing underground shows to 30 people isn't a sustainable business model.
@@skilldeadly8888 amen to that
@@skilldeadly8888 punk bands obviously are rarely interested in making music a career and it's not a business to them. But some do like the subhumans and still never have their music released by corporate labels. It's something worth doing it the artists value things besides money.
It's crazy hearing this in 2024. 30 years ago Lagwagon wrote one of my all time favorite songs called Know It All "the bands are good till they make enough cash to eat food and get a pad, then they've sold out and their music's cliche, cause talents exclusive to bands without pay." I would show this to all my southern California punk friends who thought every punk band except theirs were sellouts.
The ending of the movie SLC Punk also seems to sum this up the same way.
Love that you're shining light on it, Finn. Keep up the good work, Brother.
Some dude once said "There's nothing less punk than putting a label on something" and "punk" is a label. Don't label shit.
Nothing is more punk than talking about what punk is on the Finn McKenty show.
HahahahaHhahah
Oh wait so by intentionally not labelling yourself, you're more punk than people that label themselves punk?
I wish I had concerned that in high school, as I've always been kind of slow to embrace the commercialization of that stuff.
Keep in mind that describing things in terms of labels is how language works :)
How can you use an explicit label as a metric for the non use of a label? And who gets to establish the "rule" all labels are bad?
"Destruction By Definition" 😁
I've been wrestling with this cognitive dissonance around punk for quite a while. I love the music, and love the idea of what punk states to stand for, but I was never accepted by scene kids because I didn't want to dress or act like they did. The self-defeating flagellation that a lot of punk people fall into is exhausting, and I didn't really want any part of that. I guess what I'm saying is thank you for speaking things I've been feeling for a while. I'm glad I'm not alone in how I feel about it all.
I remember getting called a poser at a Bad Religion show back in the day because I was wearing khaki's or something similar. I guarantee I knew and loved that band so much more then then they did. That's always stuck with me.
One time I was at a punk show chilling outside the venue with my friends. A punk rock girl all dressed up punk rock gear asked me why I was there. I was like I'm here for the music. She just looked at me crazy. I wasn't all decked out in Punk rock Wear. I was wearing a polo with jeans and boots. Then she realized I actually was serious. I never thought I had to look like xyz person. I'm my own person and dress how I want. That to me is punk.
Most of the California punk bands that I loved dressed like normal dudes. Circle Jerks, Agent Orange, DK, Pennywise, and Bad Religion all didn’t look “punk.” So the style gatekeeping from the fans always perplexed me.
@@devenscience8894 The weirder thing is that there are plenty who insist all those who dress the part are posers "because punk isn't a uniform", and that people should all dress like normal people like how their scene dresses, not realising that's just as much a uniform as the classic punk look.
You’ve seen ‘SLC Punk’, right?
I used to be a correction officer at a medium security prison. The inmates there followed the "thug life" and many were convinced they were the next hip hop superstar. Thug life is shallow and materialistic, yet the inmates thought they were living by a deep philosophical street code. It also has a harsher and more immediate dead end than punk ever did.
I know what you mean here. The strange thing is that there are a lot of rappers giving positive messages if you look, but they don't get the same success. Negativity sells.
"so we all keep dreamin' / we aint alive as long as theres a prison guard still breathin. so we all keep schemin, we dont get tired we get even. (quote from folk punk pioneer Pat the Bunny, and things like the stanford Prison Study give it creedence )
@@Rock_Bottom_DenizenI can’t sleep anyway
Wolves haunt my living room
They keep me up all night
Howling at the moon
And I’d still be on the outside
Of the community we’re building
But that could never change
Any society’s a prison
To me
❤
Thank you for your bold and nuanced opinion. As a fanatical metalhead who's developed a taste for literally any and every form of music, I deeply relate. Gatekeeping elitism is so beyond juvenile and prevents us from reaching our full potential. Open wide and embrace. This universe is vast.
there's no way you could have a taste for any and every form of music. in particular, religious and tribal groups have forms of music that no outsider is allowed to hear. you can't have a taste for the secret initiation-into-manhood songs of a New Guinean tribe, unless you are a male member of that tribe of sufficient age.
@perfectallycromulent I mean I guess you're right. l'm human. 🤷♂️ I was just trying to say that I've found there to be a season and mood for everything I've heard and you can grow to appreciate almost anything.
Amen. The world is vast: Go explore. What you find and experience might surprise you given preconceived notions.
you wouldn't know the importance of gatekeeping until your niche gets ruined. just look at gaming and movies.
@@angel_of_rustso gatekeeping those things did f*ckall, is that what you are saying
1:01 I realized exactly that after seeing Adam Curtis' documentary, Century of the Self. In the third part he talks about how counterculture (hippies) of the 60s were anticorporation, which to that point had essentially produced mass good for a world that young people felt disconnected from; the world of their parents. Not long after, the corporations figured out they could actually sell personal identity to the hippies, and oh did they. I never looked at a Hot Topic the same way.
More people need to watch that.
wait till you figure out that even the first wave of rebellion was also just a product hand-crafted to subvert their societies, no different from the "corporate" flavor of 2nd wave.
The problem with 'punk' is, that it's adherents take it and themselves too seriously.
exactly. it's not fun anymore.
You're doing the same thing but I guess you're not punk then
maybe because they take Punk not as just a mere form of self-expression or subculture, but more as a philosophy and way of life. A youth subculture is obviously less serious than a profound philosophy. So if older punk rockers look at punk as a way of life, then they will naturally take it very seriously. I assume you think of punk as a mere subculture, and if so, I'd disagree because even subculture (as all cultures do) develop philosophies and ways of life that can be very profound. Punk Rock is absolutely no exception to this, especially after having a little under a half-century to develop a philosophical way of life. In fact, Punk Rock has been philosophical since the beginning. It's like Socrates but a post-modern socially-critical music genre.
@@dalime605 fun for fun's sake only satisfies ones lower qualities of psyche (IE the appetites/passions, and emotions/spirited attribute of soul). Pro*fun*dity is better, because it's not just fun for fun's sake, but also is intellectually and logically engaging (IE it engages all 3 faculties of soul, uniting it in harmony within the contemplation of profound truths).
@@martiendejong8857 I'm not even taking you seriously.
It's funny because criticism of gatekeeping is popular in the scene today, but only in reference to clothes or subgenre. Gatekeeping for opinions, even the most insignificant culture issues, has skyrocketed.
SOOOOO many people are out there deeming themselves the arbiters of what does or doesnt disqualify you from being punk.
So really nothing's changed.
What is exactly gatekeeping in metal?
I feel like the British anarcho-punk scene from the late 70s/early 80s is weirdly positive especially bands like subhumans etc. Spreading the message you don't have to follow the 'system' but still promoting ways to be kind to each other in terms of wealth and being mindful about where your clothes are made and the food you consume. It's almost positive but negative at the same time??? These kind of bands definitely didn't promote violence etc either which was a good way to somewhat peacefully spread a message. Bands like crass etc are still very much relatable to this day too
Anarcho-punk scene was very inspiring for me in terms of opening my mind to new ways of thinking. There's definitely a lot of gems throughout punk and hardcore that aren't so pessimistic. Upright Citizens "Open Eyes, Open Ears, A Brain To Think & A Mouth To Speak" always comes to mind when I think of positive punk.
THE PROBLEM WITH FINN: "Punk is about making the world a better place" Say's who? MBA you're not, dude. Misfits, Fear, Dead Kennedys all had different vibes and messages, but if they don't fit Fin's 5th grade idealism, like the way Green Day and Blink 182 do, who's politics are totally inline with schools and media, then Fin has a problem with them because they must be close minded, unlike Finn..I understand.
@@RIVALContentJammerz As far as I'm concerned the defining factors of punk are fast-paced simplistic rock music and a DIY ethic. Everything else is just gravy. You have nihilisitic bands, hopeful bands, political bands, apolitical bands, drunk bands, sober bands, hateful bands, peaceful bands. All of those things have been expressed in punk. I don't like each type of band equally but I'm not gonna be out here deciding who is and isn't punk beyond the two criteria I stated at the top, and even then that's just MY definition, and the one I find the most consistent with the historical record. But I'm a nerd like that. Funnily enough, I think Tim Armstrong said it best when asked "Who's a punk?", he said: "I dunno, I'm not a cop."
As far as punk being measured by what's consistent with the media and academia, that's a horrible metric for anything. You might as well give away your brain and let others do the talking for you. Ideas and practices should stand on their own merit, not whether they're adopted by some organization I'm supposed to be for or against. That's an inversion of the 'appeal to authority' logical fallacy. It reeks of a total lack of critical thinking.
@feathersmcgraw4090 Questioning authority was a HUGE a element of punk, remember? To come at me with the clichés of "logical fallacy" and "lack of critical thinking" is beyond weak. It's what critical thinking IS.
@@RIVALContentJammerz I'm telling you to be more rigorous about how you question authority. This is what I mean by a lack of critical thinking. That's okay though, I'm happy to clarify.
Punk was supposed to be about fighting for freedom of expression and thought against the hierarchy but instead it turned into a status and costume 🤦♀️
It was ALWAYS a status and costume. Since the beginning
@@archiemisc no, it wasn't - the 'uniform' and the jockeying for position on the 'scene' started after punk came to the attention of the mainstream media, circa late 1976 / early 1977.
A costume. That’s exactly how I look at it now.
@@lilotaku3801 All before 1980.
@@replicant_7774 Like everything else in society, like those who try too hard to look normal, to fit in with the current IDGAF how I look street look and terrified someone might not think they are heterosexual enough.
Best Punk Rock MBA vid yet. The truth about punk that nobody talks about.
When I was a teen in 2006, my friends and I were into punk rock. One day, I shared that I liked Coldplay, Maroon 5, and other popular bands, and I got made fun of. I found this reaction very un-punk. Now at 33, my young cousin is getting into alternative music. I advise him to explore all kinds of music and not limit himself.
I'm glad for my time in punk rock - it taught be how to look at things differently and to think creatively - but I'm even more glad I didn't get so deep into it that I'd end up as a shitty person lol
I love coldplays x and y heard it a few years after it came out
Coldplay has some great early records . Maroon 5 is garbagio though
Dude, those bands objectively suck
Bro, you like Coldplay. Pshhh, weaksauce.... jk
@@davidsaroea5530 no
First example I thought of was Nirvana. Weren't considered a punk band after Nevermind. Kurt even struggled with this image of not being "punk rock" enough.
You could make the argument that that's what made him pull the trigger
Kurt was like the ultimate misfit growing up and in his personal life. Can't even imagine what it's like to be idolized or reviled by pretty much everyone in the world with that background.
@johnkirby8939 The people he derided and hated, loved his music, completely missing the point.
I'd kill myself too.
Attaching your identity to some music genre is basically like attaching your identity to which ikea table you like. It's just not likely going to work out in figuring out who you really are yourself, detached from all the (music) categories
Almost like punk goes beyond just a style of music
Juggalos have entered the chat
"You could say I ha e somewhat if a JOKKMOKK 4 chair bundle type personality"
It's really not like identifying with a piece of furniture. I feel like this is obvious
....but I love Mörbylangå!
One of my favorite youtubers Brian Zane (Wrestling with Wregret) would always say, "Like what you like and don't be a dick about it."
So much of what Finn is saying here applies to the modern wrestling fandom that it hurts.
@@nickudeschini4812 there's nothing wrestling fans hate more than wrestling.
@@darthsmolin that applies to fandom in general really. nobody hates a thing more than the fandom of said thing
Love that channel
I love Wrestling With Regret. Brian Zane rules.
Started my punk road in 1984. Been thinking about this a lot lately. Thank you for allowing me to hear it in someone else's voice for a change.
I’ve found it’s a double edge sword. I’ve meet some of the most inspiring and motived people from the larger umbrella of punk. I’ve also met some of the most defeatist negative people to. The positive ones take the concept of DIY, hard work and run with it, achieving amazing things in their lives. The negative ones stay stuck. You gotta know when artists are letting off steam when they write a negative song. Don’t base your life around the lyrics of someone venting their issues. Take the positive messages of the culture and apply that to your life.
I remember being in a band with a dude who ran a punk house back in the 00s. The guys who lived there were all in bands, put on shows, organized events. They were able to accomplish so much, but on a personal level, none of them had their shit together at all and none of them ever used that same energy to build any kind of decent life for themselves. It's a weird dynamic and while I'm happy I was part of that scene, I'm also happy I never let it become a guiding force in my life
As a youngster, could give examples of how they didn't have their lives together?
@@thiev__v5398 sure. The guy in my band bounced around between minimum wage jobs, never went to college, and spent every single night drunk and/or high. He eventually just up and left to move to California to move in with a girl he only knew online. They'd never even met. The rest of them had similar issues with drinking, and looked down on anyone who was trying to find success within the framework of society. Everything they approved of had to be underground, and nothing in pop culture was ever acceptable. They even considered bands like Bane or Strung Out to be sellouts because you could actually find their albums in stores. None of them seemed to consistently hold down a job because they just didn't care about anything but the punk scene, so they were awful employees. It's one thing to go through a phase where you live that way, but some of these guys were around 30 years old
@@thiev__v5398As someone who's been in bands since I was 17 and is just now getting his life together in his 30's, it usually means heavy addiction issues, drinking all night sleeping all day, rotating jobs often cause youre just there to earn a paycheck to pay rent and buy beer. Actual relationships fall apart cause you just don't have your shit together and you're not taking care of your health. If you can't take care of yourself how can anyone expect you to help take care of them type deal. No school, dead end jobs, and failed relationships have been my personal life til now and I'm absolutely not alone. I did make some cool music and travelled around and saw some dope shit though. I've certainly got stories to tell. But it's not sustainable. Nobody wants to be the dude at 40 who never fucking changed, you just become a burden to other people.
if you're alive, somewhat healthy and doing something you love I say you're doing a pretty good job
@@Ant-gu6vz I totally agree, but the guys I'm talking about were struggling in every aspect of their lives outside of being leaders in the punk scene. If they were cool with trying to get by on a part time minimum wage job then good for them. But they were all drinking and using drugs because they were miserable in every other aspect of their lives
I'm an old GenX'er. I remember the "Punk Panic" as well as the "Satanic Panic" from the 80s. Good times.
My mom broke all my records. It sucked when I had to rebuy all of them.
GenXer, too. I remember us just arbitrarily deciding punk died in 1985, and anything after that point wasn’t really punk, just poser crap. It’s nonsense obviously, but a lot of us got really worked up over the idea
Satanic panic was great. It made metal very interesting.
@@brianmeen2158it was real except they blamed the wrong people for it
The PMRC and Just Say No. 😂
Irony is from what you said is that punk made me a more "normal" person. It helped me explore myself and society. It didn't cut me off but helped me grow.
I really feel ya on the "uniform" of punk aspect. I always enjoyed the variety of styles that the alternative scene created. I was consistently bummed that, despite spending time going to basement shows and playing in punk bands and having a lot of punk friends, I never got to "be in the club" because I liked goth and emo and dressed very feminine(bizarre considering how important that was for me finding my identity in a scene supposedly all about that, and also because it was macho bullshit)
As for the negativity aspect regarding having a political or social message I think what is missing is balance. Identifying and speaking out about things wrong with the world is a great thing, but you have to offer another vision and encourage people to pursue it, not just wallow in the injustice of it all. I'm often reminded of Chumbawumba(bear with me!). They were a band with strong political convictions who followed those throughout their career. They were often participating in protests and activism and they regularly took major label money and spent that on supporting independent music despite those labels objections. They flew the black and red over the BRIT awards and even poured water over the Prime Ministers head. They played a wide and weird variety of music and managed to be very successful while doing so. They are also best known for writing a dumb, silly, and very fun drinking song that was a pop hit. Probably pretty popular with the kinds of folks you wouldn't expect the band to see eye to eye with on things. And who cares? Its a fun song, they were successful doing what they want and writing hits at the same time. They got tons of crap from "real punks" who never achieved half of the political work they did *and* never wrote a massively successful pop hit. Why can't ya do both? There is absolutely *nothing* anarchist about not being able to write a stupid, catchy drinking song or to have said song be popular. The people who complain likely don't do much of anything besides complaining and they should be forgotten
A mate of mine knew a few of the members of Chumbawumba and I ended up being introduced to them at a gig...Danbut Nobacon walked away from me cos I introduced myself as Ackbut Nomeatpie...Alice was very nice though 😜
Theres a small club of punks in my area of which I am a part of (abt 100 of us), which still upholds the original views of punk, but sadly the majority of modern "punks" don't sadly follow that lifestyle anymore. It is honestly sad. We're constantly growing, our group, and we actively encourage people to join up no matter what subculture you belong to, metalhead, emo, hippie, goth, scene, grunge, classic punk, etc, I think all punk scenes should be like that.
Sounds great :-)
Thanks Finn, this is the content I've been waiting for you to create! I've shared the video with all my old punk friends and we all agreed with your vision. We still enjoy punk rock, but it doesn't mean we have to put up with the bullshit and the gatekeeping.
Punks are supposed to be independent thinkers who pave their own way, but instead they are often highly sensitive and unstable adult children a la William Joseph Armstrong and Henry Rollins
"highly sensitive and unstable adult children"
exactly
Woah! What's Henry Rollins sensitive and unstable about?? He seemed normal!
I feel like the exact same thing can be said about the metal scene as well. We get so full of greasy dogmatic losers who are all consistently racing to the bottom and be edgier than thou. And I was no different there. Midlife has offered me the chance to look back and be embarrassed that it took me some 15ish years to pry my head from my ass. I’m grateful for all the friends and experiences that I had in the scene but i too often wonder how happy and different I’d be if I when I heard it back in the nineties I just thought like a normal person “Why are they screaming? Can we listen to that new 3rd eye blind?”
But they are very successfull adult children. Worse if all adult children looked like Sid Vicious, Darby Crash or even GG Allin.
I think Billie Joe Armstrong was actually christened Billie Joe
Great video. As a Dad who's made his living teaching guitar and recording bands for cheap, I took my kids to punk shows when they were still in grade school. My daughter now 21 plays in bands and puts on and plays house shows with diverse acts, and she's happy.
The value of punk is in what you take from it. For many of us it was the courage to find happiness outside the norms. Now that Warped is gone, the commercialism withering, it will be left to those who embrace that spirit. It just gets derailed every dozen years when it becomes marketable.
Punk: I've got a message to get across
Metal: I've learned how to play this instrument better than anyone ever
Too reductive. That only applies to a small sub section of metal.
@@thehorriblebright it's punk to not know your instrument and play like you do know. Metal is about being tight and precise. And that's why it's basically illegal to add fills or make 4 minute punk songs.
@@thehorriblebright applies to the majority of metal
@@RocknJazzer Not my experience. Making the best songs possible, yes, technical skill no.
As a jazz guitarist, I think it's cute you guys think metalheads are talented.
I can relate to a lot of the grievances punk comments on, but for how much the scene revolves around social commentary, there's not much talk about solutions. Punk is basically the "anger" stage of grief and rarely moves past that.
I think Finn is at the "acceptance" stage of grief now.
I want to start a band thats still fun and angry about how fucked everything is but also raise awareness of solutions at shows and through social media. I'm near seattle if this ever becomes a reality or anyone is interested LOL. I play drums
What's sad is honestly.ALOT of movements sadly have that problem.
nu metal is all anger, no healing or acceptance
It’s a lot harder to write a song about tax policy or the benefits of walkable spaces; and even harder than that to get people to listen to it.
This made me remember my best friend from high school, a punk goth who loved painting, punk rock, and booze. We grew apart when I started my Philosophy undergrad, and I never heard from him again. He's an absolute ghost with no digital footprint whatsoever except scattered comments ("an extremely talented, but sorely bitter alcoholic," "a broken genius," and stuff like that) on blogs or tweets mentioning him by people who have met him over the years. I still miss him, but his negativity was toxic on every conceivable level.
Bro, thank you for making this video. In my experience being from Savannah, GA where there used to be a decent size punk/hardcore scene I used to think all those kids were so cool. One day, I ended up being around a lot of them because of a girl I was dating and holy shit… everything they believed in was backwards. Being a homeless alcoholic was somehow more virtuous than having a stable job, sleeping with random people 3-4 nights a week and being in a first name basis with the nurses at the free clinic was cooler than being married with a family and etc.
There is a lot I love about many many different subcultures and was a part of (to some degree) but some of the worst people I’ve ever met in my life were punk kids and EDM/festival kids (wooks and hippies). There are plenty of terrible people from all walks of life and great people from punk/EDM scenes but I mention those two specifically because they both preach things that are VERY different than what they practice.
I’m at a red light and typing fast so forgive any typos or incoherency lol
Punk rock is wearing a cowboy hat to a hip hop show. Punk rock is no rules and that means anyone can do whatever the fuck they want.
Conforming to noncomformity....
Structure vs No Structure choose your lifestyle.
That's a rule bro lol
Punk is definitely talking about what punk is on Finn Mckentys show
**Dan Framton has entered the chat**
I love all the genres of punk! My favorite is folk punk. I found people who can relate to me. Addicts and homelessness and loneliness. There’s a bond in that loving community.
Finn I am LOVING your most recent vids on the main channel! Love that you are breaking the mold and making content with your personality as the driver again. I hope you keep doing it.
I think Patricia from HorrorPops said it best- "Freaks in uniforms, creating norms. It's misguided unity!"
Great reference, to a great song!
That’s why hardcore is my place. Most of it is about surviving hard times. It’s mostly about being strong and bettering yourself.
I used that issue of MaximumRocknRoll, "Should Bands Sign to Major Labels", for an essay in college. R.I.P. Steve Albini. Short answer: For probably most bands, signing to a major label was a mistake.
Probably was a mistake, unless they controlled a stake in their rights. Not likely with a major label.
Steve albini..
Iron Maiden got it right.
@@mike04574 thanks for mentioning Steve Albini. I had to look him up. I wasn't as much into grunge or bigger bands. But, that guy's story is a great one and he knew what he was doing.
I was really into punk music when I was younger, but I wasn't a punk. And I wasn't part of the scene because there was no scene where I grew up. What appealed to me with punk was the DIY attitude and aesthetic, and just the raw power and energy of the music. All other genres of music just seemed way too produced and contrived. It was also very empowering to know that people who were a year or two older than me were in bands with records out, that teenagers were putting out records and touring. Seeing a DIY punk band's record on display at the local record shop right next to a Bruce Springsteen or Michael Jackson record was awe-inspiring. I felt nothing could be more punk than that right there.
7:18 punk is not anti-success, it's anti-commercialist and often anti-capitalist too
And how that theory goes in practice?
@@paravan2000 minimalism, diy ethic, practicing and facilitating mutual aid, social activism, disconnecting from Money as much as possible in the present, etc etc
@@paravan2000organizing
Punk is not anti-capitalist, just anti-consumerism.
@@josuev9728 and where did punk say that ? wtf
When John Lydon, back in the late 90's, complained about the disrespect the Pistols were receiving from Green Day, I was out.
Green day is the reason that i said f🤬ck punk.
tbf, Johnny Lydon is notoriously difficult to get along. He's been very active and vocally right-wing so I think that is why a lot of posters on here keep referencing him. I'm not sure if that's a factor for you. Lydon is good at being controversial. That's unchanged.
Funny considering how Pete Townsend reacted to first seeing The Sex Pistols, you would think they would have learned something about how not to handle that.
@@frankfinnsweenryan Does the name 'Rotten' mean anything to people in the USA? If you know anything about him is that he hates Tories
You can always trust Johnny to live up to his name, his songs are always the cold hard truth and no flowery BS.
He will always say things to upset people and why he is so hated by the establishment, after all no member of parliament or congress has threatened to have any members of Green day hung at traitors gate, or beaten up by razor gangs.
A lot of those “fuck the conformity” songs were written by kids. Punk music is filled with juvenile thinking. Enjoy the sentiments but don’t much it your road map for life.
Well said
And support for marxist corporations
@@Ishidanfarded2370 Name one marxist corporation. Every corporation is capitalist by definition.
Like Will Smith said "Parents just don't understand"
@@Ishidanfarded2370"marxist corporation" is the biggest oxymoron I've ever read 😂😂😂😂😂 good one!
45yrold here. I've mainly listened to punk since my early teens. I was deep in it. I always say it ruined my life. Now, I know it's all on me, but it definitely contributed to my mentality for all these years. There still some good to it with political awareness, but the lowlife low class lifestyle is what I leaned on as a cruch being from an impoverished background. I kept this attitude for most of my life. It's hurt me and the people around me. I still listen to some, and I do get nostalgic. I also think it's weird that the older bands are still trying to make music, (what are they so mad about), but I'd still go see them. 😂
Being a loser = punk was always punk rocks' achilles heel and doomed it to self destruct eventually. Eventually, people figure out that being a pessimistic quitter and loser kinda sucks.
I think it was an exaggerated stereotype more than anything else. Punk = loser, Harvard degree, white coats and big houses = winner. Of course, then along came Dexter Holland with his private jets :)
Being punk or HC is also about never giving up.
I looked up one day and saw it was up to me
You can only be a victim if you admit defeat -
Descendents - Coolidge
The kids have gone their own way.
Seems that they have nothing to say. On the outside, beaten and sore, but what’s inside is the heart of the core.
Leeway - Stand For
Didn't harm Richard Branson or Malcolm McClaren, many others did well out of it who might have done nothing with their lives.
This is the most accurate depiction of the punk scene, and I couldn't agree more. It hasn't changed or evolved since. I've met great people through it, found a place that gave me a sense of belonging as you had mentioned where I encountered diy, but with time realized that most are toxic and carry an elitist mentality that censors true open-minded thinking. I've stepped away from it and am happy to have done so, as thankfully I am now sober because of it and realized how much I need to get my life together. Thanks for sharing this video, as it is most truthful yet enlightening. Keep up the good content, my friend.
Personally I don't care if a punk band makes money, the problem is when they're all about the money, ripping people off, posing as poor while they have trust funds etc.
First , I grew up and I defined punk as "it's mean, sloppy, and everybody knows, the bassist isn't playing" now I think punk is just rock minus a stable format as to how you gotta write it out. There are still definitions about punk but they are lesser and lesser to me at least.
*Just to any bassists, most of the time as a bassist you're allocated to follow the root note and you're done.
That's a load of bollocks. Most classic Rock and Metal has bass players pumping out roots, or following the guitar riff, which is the main event. A lot of punk has the guitar just chugging 8th note power chords, often with harmonic rhythms that span bars. This opens up a lot of space for the bass and I can name a lot of virtuoso bass players that came out of punk. Because the guitar has a more limited role, punk mixes well with other bass forward genres. There is ska punk, but there is no ska metal.
*Matt Freeman has exited the chat*
Sid wasn't playing.
"Punk is just rock minus a stable format" misses the whole social and political reasons why punk came into life in the first place. Keeping in mind that "punk rock" is just one of the means of expression of the punk culture, so there's got to be some ideals within the music.
@@simongunkel7457 That's why many kids ditched heavy rock in the late 1970's. got into more bassy music.
Thank you for talking about this and other similar subjects. Videos where you talk about these types of things are my favorites. No one seems to talk about this stuff and its super important that someone starts. Nothing will change otherwise.
This hit so close to home. I often lament that I let my punk friends shame me for being interested in philosophy, economics, and history. I was so worried about losing what I thought was my only support network in a small town that I hobbled myself, and I’ve had to do a lot of catching up in adulthood. Glad I’m making my way now, but often reflect on how this scene was a net negative in my life.
Great video. Jim Adkins said "The Middle" was written (in part) in response to an email he got from a teen girl who said that she was feeling left out and ostracized by the punk clique at her school who said she wasn't punk enough.
I used to turn up to DIY punk shows wearing tees from many other genres from Sepultura to Beastie Boys to Peter Gabriel and none of the people who were actually "maintaining the scene" (actually putting on show, running distros, writing 'zines) cared (they would just look and go, "oh, that's just Grant") but the people who did nothing and were playing at being punker than everyone complained.
I'm 45 now and have really grappled with some of this too. I came out of more the anarcho/crusty scene and alcoholism is just so rampant and promoted to so much of the scene outside of hardcore. I got into punk because I felt like an outsider in my country town, and it opened up my world in some ways, but then led me down maybe not the greatest path from there. Somewhere along the way it stopped being about fun and I had to step back and take a look at what I loved about punk in the first place and re-embrace the dumb fun sweaty dancing days and te DIY spirit.
This is all so true. I got into ‘punk’ through discovering Green Day when I was 14 in 2009. So definitely a long time after they made it big and broke through into the mainstream. They are the reason I started playing guitar and joined bands in my teens and paved the way for my future passion for music throughout my life.
Through them I discovered Punk/ other punk bands and what Punk stands for.
The DIY BELIEF is what I believe is the most important part of the scene.
As someone in the the punk scene for the last 25 years playing in bands I can safely say the punk scene is the most toxic music scene of any. This is even more true the last decade. This was a great video by the way.
As an artist, this is a very healthy take on the music industry as a whole. Disclaimer: no one has ever thought of me and what I do as punk. That said, any artist who has ever created music, has dreamted of supporting themselves and their family simply by making music. Of the flip side, songs like story of my life are important too. They are often just honest thoughts set to music. Love your channel and your take on music as a whole.
Never ever referred to myself as a punk rocker but it’s almost always been around me for as long as I can remember.
I was 12 in ‘76 London when my mate played me Sex Pistols NMTB. 7 years later I was 19 in Fullerton, O.C., CA discovering Social Distortion. I recently turned 60 and, I realised, I just never cared about money or power or material crap. No kids but never wanted them and would have been a useless GenX parent - the same people who sowed the seeds of the current cultural quagmire. Otherwise, happy with no regrets; I have lived, and nearly died, a lot.
Exactamundo! Finn's values seem to skew heavily materialistic-- success, career, marriage, money. I dunno that he ever learned the punk ethos at all.
But then, we the ambition-impaired are the way we are regardless of any ethos. I just never gave a shit about money & status symbols possessions.
I'm 50, I live in a room, I'm busted flat & I am happier now than I ever was when I hadda bit of money & was attempting to fit myself into the conventional bourgeois mode of living.🦃✊🦃✊🦃✊🦃
I’m glad to see more of these personal takes coming from you again
Yeah, but you basically describe American Punk only. In Germany and UK it was a whole different story back then.
The opening line in "Boxcar" by Jawbreaker has suddenly aged wonderfully: "YOU'RE NOT PUNK AND I'M TELLING EVERYONE..."
Save your breathe, I never was one.
@@frankfinnsweenryan who's punk? what's the score?
The term “PUNK” is ridiculous in the first place… All the classic bands like Sex Pistols, the damned, CBGB bands and Ramones never considered themselves “PUNK”, they really just wanted to play like the rockabilly artist in the 50s and early 60s. Reject the 70s yacht and 7 minute songs and just play stripped down rock n roll. 🤷🏽♂️
This seems to happen a lot, grunge for example- explain to me how the hell Mudhoney and Alice In Chains are the same genre. Outside of being dirty looking and using distorted guitars they’re completely different styles of music, but people lump them together when they don’t have another ready made category. The Sex Pistols and Ramones, same thing. The only real similarity is that they both played fast, simple songs, but the Sex Pistols were fashion mannequins full of champagne anarchy and the Ramones were making songs about going to the beach. (I know they did do some political songs like “Bonzo goes to Bitburg” but I think my point stands)
I mean it’s retroactive naming. Tony Iommi of Black Sabbath said the band wasn’t Heavy Metal but it certainly fits all the criteria. When you’re the first to do it, you don’t know what to call yourself.
How is it anymore ridiculous a name than "ROCKaBILLY' or 'HIP HOP'?
Good insights, Finn!
And just so you know; you were wondering if you would've been better off never being a part of the punk scene, but because of it, you have something incredibly valuable now: wisdom with a story to back it up.
Because of your experience and your realizations, you have a story to tell so that others can avoid some of the stumbles and pitfalls you had to go through; your advice can be an incredible blessing to others.
Don’t often comment - but I love your take on this. Too much group think and woe is me going on for sure. I admire you got yourself out of the bullshit and created a life you’re happy to live.
"We feel that hardcore music should stay out of big business, and stay in the streets where it belongs" - Raybeez
І doubt Raybeez could repeat it, if he was alive now.
@@pengvin86 Why?
straight facts
@@dr.juerdotitsgo5119 because now is very difficult to 'stay in the streets' when all that streets are gentryfied now. Raybeez lived at the times when NY was a f---ed up and cheap place to live and play, now Lower East Side is not a rough place anymore, CBGB is closed, and even NYHC veterans have their own businesses to stay on the road and they are far, far away from the street life now. Also punk veterans who still playing since the 80's now talk that to be in a punk band now is harder then in their youth - everything became expensive, rent became expensive too, they have families to fed, so they now try to keep more money as possible.
@@pengvin86 Valid points. But regardless of how many bands are on their "anniversary/reunion tour" era, it doesn't change the true nature of punk/hardcore. Finn also made some valid points, although it's a mistake to approach "punk" the way he did, as if it was this one big thing; there are many different scenes, from different places and different eras. Furthermore, certain "dogmas" are necessary; it's what give something its own identity. Otherwise we end up with "always question everything", which is a paradox.
I'm 23 and I play in a punk/garage band and I just don't come to the same conclusions as Finn. I'm tired of all this debate. I love rockNroll but I feel that its spirit is more and more buried and at this point I just want to have fun and enjoy myself. I hate gatekeeping and the rockstar attitude. We don't owe anything to anyone, we sound and dress how we like. Some will say that it is a very simplistic conclusion but you know what? Sometimes things are that simple. I just want to wear my leather jacket and rock.
I wasnt around for the original punk movement. Never cared too much for punk music or style. But I was in and around every alternative subculture.
As I've gotten older, and I still look for new music or the study about music movements, I cant help but I have an endearing respect for punk. If anything, its ethos lives on (or the idealized / romanticized version of it).
Good things will always be ruined by bad people over time. Doesnt make the original goodness of the thing any less good. Either start over or pass the torch. And I think we still have people with a punk mindset out here today :)
That's have been always the Story. Once someone from the scene get's a ticket to main stream everybody bashes them as posers or sellouts.
They get high off of Jealousy and hypocrisy.
And its funny, like with the Offspring, listen to their self titled, then Igniition, then Smash and tell me anything changed about their style. Same with Green Day. Dookie is a perfectly reasonable progression from their first two albums. They didn't change a damn thing, they just got better over time.
Man you hit this nail on the head. I liked all genres but had the gatekeepers tell me what I was or wasn’t.
what a great video! As a 1978 born myself, I too went through many of the stages you presented in your video. In high school, I went from gang to gang because I listened to punk, thrash, prog, folk, grunge, alternative, industrial, trip hop (etc) in both French and English ... I never found found I fitted anywhere. There was always a lot of gatekeeping and not just from the punks ... metalheads where the same
Im the 90s kid that got into punk through Green Day and Rancid, but then i went deeper and found the Dead Kennedys and they changed my life. DK , well Jello really, help form my political veiws that i still hold 30 years later, dont always agree with him, but we dont always have to. And i do hate the "oh you're a sellout you signed to even a small label" why wouldnt you want your music heard? Just dont change your ethics. And also James Hetfeild said it best years ago, yeah we sold out, we sold out every show on this tour, and i know they arent punk, but thrash and punk are close cousins
Yeah, 90s punk who got really into the Epitaph/Fat bands (Bad Religion is still my favorite band today). With all due respect to Finn, I don’t relate to this at all. If anything, punk showed me that through education and engagement, we can make a difference. This video completely missed the mark for me
As a punk musician from San Francisco, I completely agree with you on so many levels. Thank you for being real, and having original thought. I have always seeked out individuals rather than groups or cliques. If I can be candid that's exactly how the scene here in the Bay Area has felt for the last 6 years, like the Mean Girls that I can't sit with at lunch. Thank you for all that you do Finn!
Finn, that first 2 minutes mirrors my experience, and a LOT of other people's. In my case it was moreso metal music, but there has always been that overlap between the two subcultures, especially post 2001. Don't even need to watch the entire video. Growing up is realizing that your counterculture is most likely a secular religion, and was/is quite literally part of normal mainstream culture. Nothing is new under the sun, yknow?
Put this video under the category of "We're all thinking it, I'm just gonna say it." And I love it.
Just wanna say that this video is a slam dunk. I never thought to put some of this into words, as I felt I just naturally moved onto other music/scenes (although I definitely still enjoy punk/hardcore sometimes) but hearing someone else say this is hugely validating. Its hard to separate whats what when you're looking between the cool forward thinking groups of people in any scene from the permanent high schooler groups of people that seem to be all too common. Great video, instant sub
People forget how jazz-listening zoot suits was the first punk movement.
those guys weren't punks they were pimps.
I always thought the whole beat generation thing was punk
@IcoOst dude, the protestants were a punk-like movement in opposition to catholicism. Think about it. The catholics got too proggy and convoluted with their dogma so the protestants simplified the whole stuff and introduced the world to the "three-cord" doctrine. Lol
@@IcoOstI've always felt beatniks were more like hippies. Surf-Rock, on the other hand, that felt so punk.
0:05 “Hi, I’m Shelly Duvall” 😂
To anyone who says "I'm too punk to go to prom" or do XYZ: I literally went to no less than 6 different proms, and all but one of them I sported a mohawk, nail polish and black eyeliner. Just because you consider yourself "punk" doesn't mean you have to miss out on certain experiences in life. You can absolutely do non-punk things, just bring your own flavor to them.
I’ve always thought I was somewhat weird as I can go from listening to folk in the morning, punk at lunchtime , metal for late afternoon and chilled indie in the evening. I grew up thinking you were meant to only listen to one genre of music
So it isn't just me who changes their music taste for different times of the day.
I like metal, metalcore, some punk, a bit of hip-hop/rap, folk, rock, electronic music, singer-songwriter acoustic stuff.
I usually start with something more chill, then by the afternoon I'm ready for the heavy hitters, and then winding down in the evening again.
I learned to appreciate dub and reggae through bands like the clash/bad brains, rockabilly through X/the cramps, funk through gang of four/minutemen etc etc., i’ve never understood the notion that being into punk means you can’t listen to anything else, if anything it broadened my horizons more than they would be without it.
Finn, please keep making videos like this one. Genuinely great, and the message is necessary especially for younger viewers of yours.
I was a punk. I am 60 now and have a successfyl corporate america job. I still love & listen to punk. I never did hard drugs, committed crimes or hurt myself.
Now I wanna start a band called Locusts of Control
"*Locus of control*"
@@joshuajhoyt exactly, locusts of control. that's what we're saying.
@@joshuajhoyt Did I stutter?
Looking for a vocalist/guitarist by any chance...? ;p
I was born in 93, so my generation's outcast scene was the emo/scene shows. I feel similarly to you. I grew up with drug addict parents & while at first, emo music felt like something I could relate to, that felt like home, it became something that influenced me down a dark path. Self-harm, suicidal ideation, depression were all romanticized by these bands that I loved & my impressionable teenage brain wanted to emulate that. All my friends were depressed emo kids who cut themselves & it wasn't cool to find things that made you happy. It was cool to live in your anger & sadness. It had a profound effect on me & led me to doing things I don't think I would have otherwise done. It was a detour in my life that cost me precious time & I'm now 31 years old & a sophomore in college. Would I have already been well into my career by now if I hadn't taken that detour? I'll never know. But I did also learn some valuable lessons & skills from that detour. Those experiences shaped me & made me who I am & I don't take that for granted.
This is exactly why I stopped caring what others thought. I used to be that close-minded punk jerk and missed out on so much. Made a change when my friends played their music while dressing me down on why people just didn't like me. Now seeing the bs that happened with Eric Micklow, just reminds me on why I moved on
There’s a video out there called “Pop Punk Band Pick Their Favorite Blink 182 song”. While most bands are quick to answer, The Offspring act like they are “too cool” to actually like a Blink song, or don’t know any. I mean not everyone actually likes Blink, but to act unfamiliar/unsupportive of one of the most successful acts of your own genre seemed a little petty to me.
This is necessary. I'm somewhat of a fan but never got into it much. I respect Bad Brains and the Rude boys.
Love this video and topic. I'm a 34 year old woman who grew up in the punk scene and who has been struggling with identity a bit over the past couple of years for all of the reasons you spoke about. I've had a hard time vocalizing it and putting words to my feelings, so I really appreciate this
You’re basically describing all fandoms.
All hero worship too. I can name a dozen famous people who have fan bases that will not tolerate a single word said against them. Uncritically worshiping some guy because you like him and his work is not a good idea. For instance, I like Zappa, but I'm not going to pretend that he was perfect or that he didn't shit on many, many people throughout his life. But try telling your average Zappa fan that he cheated Bruce Bickford out of his life's work or that he cheated Beefheart out of money or that he cheated the original Mothers or that he kept some woman he was screwing in the basement of his family's home or that he was willfully ignorant of anything outside his comfort zone. And where are all those "unrealized manuscripts," by the way? Trunks full of them, FZ claimed.
Finn - Sooooo many thoughts on what you laid down here, I'll see if I can get a coherent comment out of them.
TLDR: Generally I agree with your comments and applaud you for taking your shot at capturing the flaws in the "punk ideal." The issue I have with your analysis is that you're still stuck on the superficial. The punk "scene" was and is shallow but punk as art represented something much more broad than what the scene wanted to accept hence the gatekeeping. Look deeper to grasp the bigger picture man...
Like you I'm a fan of music generally. I listen to most anything that I either identify with or enjoy the sound. Art is like that, very subjective. I listen to hardcore, ska, bubblegum/pop punk, country, bluegrass, jazz, hip hop, "nu metal" (what I call urban metal), hard rock/heavy metal, surfer punk, classical, oldies, industrial, electronica, the list goes on.... but I'm very very picky about those artists I consider "good" and those that are merely making commercial music that is bland and meaningless (ahem... Taylor Swift, any boy band).
You're talking about the "scene" when it sounds like you were never really part of it in spirit even though that's what you wanted. You tried so hard to fit in but felt and feel rejected... Now you're complaining about "punk" because of something that was always a part of it... the scene. Stop trying to be like other people or wishing you were. Here's some more truth about the scene, it's mostly full of angry people who express their anger through Bolshevism, Fascism, Racism, and Atheism/Agnosticism. These collectivists and zealots hate religion and religious people; they live dead lives of anger and spite because they can't rise above their petty grievances and superficial analysis. They're just angry at how phony people are and want to express that anger.
I took from "punk" what I wanted and left the rest. I am a Christian and was a Christian when I was attending underground shows here on the East Coast. I wasn't part of the red lace skinhead nazi crowd that showed up at unity core shows and started fights. I wasn't part of the unity core commies or the straight edge terrorist crowd either. I thought punks were fools for ragging on capitalism, religion, etc. and their scene bullshit irritated me to no end. What they were really raging about was "polite society" and the banality of it all. The conventions that they raged at were as much window dressing for polite society as the punks thought but the punks applied their rage even to sincere believers who were and are outside of polite society. In rejecting phony banality they They saw all these people they raged against as inauthentic phonies who played dress up to fit in and that angered them because they embraced who they were or couldn't escape it. Maybe West Coast punk and the associated scene is different but I think the premise holds true. Goths reflected the same sentiments in a more passive aggressive (feminine) format, which is why punks had so much antipathy for Goths. My philosophy teacher in high school called it "existential angst."
I didn't get along with lots of people in "the scene" but I met a lot of friends there, like you. So what did I get out of "punk"... mostly I identified with the gritty, blue collar, rough around the edges sentiment portrayed in their songs. I, literally, grew up on the wrong side of the tracks (kid you not). I'm from a family that is forever divided by social status - one side consists of rich Germans well established in East Coast polite society - the other side consists of hillbillies/rednecks/Appalachian Americans that ventured out of the mountains in the 50s looking for work. Neither side accepts the other. The blend resulted in a local family dynamic that saw my grandparents, parents, and my family as never really accepted by either side. In the hills, we were "the brats from Baltimore" and at home we were "those damned hillbillies." I'm an intellectual redneck that lives and works in one of the tougher blue collar cities on the East Coast. The punk scene offered a haven of sorts because I could identify with their sentiments ("I miss the old New York!") where survival on the streets, feeling rejected by polite society, and making an altruistic living amongst all of the phonies and materialists was the ideal (look at the music made by Dropkick Murphy's, Agnostic Front, Sick of It All, etc). They wanted what religion had to offer but hated religion for it (irony alert) so they replaced it with other -isms that filled that void - something to believe in (H/T The Offspring). That is the macro punk perspective and what you were pining for but lost by getting caught up in scene politics.
Instead of whining about "punk" and calling it bullshit, try to see the bigger picture. Embrace the art form for what it offers (to you) and discard the rest; accept it for what it is. F*** all of the scene bullshit politics. There is always a scene. As an adult in my 40s, the scene is now the corporate sphere where DIE, ESG, and political correctness are all the rage. Man... it's a struggle to fit in there as well because its all fake. These initiatives are nothing more than window dressing to achieve alternate, more nefarious goals: namely displacing producers who can expose the credentialed class for the frauds they are with grateful useful idiots that won't challenge the established hierarchy or, at least, will challenge it in the right way (getting rid of "undesirables" while promoting the "right kind" of people - sound familiar). Very few in leadership care about doing a good job or excellence in a craft. Go along to get along types who won't laugh and tell the emperor he has no clothes on; if you dare expose the regime for what it is, you're PNG just like back in the punk scene. :sigh: SMH
In closing, a fair exposition on your part but I encourage you to look deeper and think in the macro or super-macro next time.
Whoa, mate…! I may not necessarily agree with your main point (at least as I see it, more on that anon). Yet, full chapeau bas for writing such a thoroughly thought, well-composed comment on an UA-cam video. You seem to be a dinosaur, bro. Good to know there’s at least two of us :)
To the merit, then: I’m a Christian, too. And “think in the macro!” is exactly what I tell my apostatic, agnostic or flat out atheist friends. See the bigger picture. Embrace the core values. Still, it’s a friggin’ hard thing to do when yet again you hear of another priest who raped a bunch of pre-teens. Or another bishop who sold his soul for (admittedly) a bit more that thirty pieces of silver. Or another self-proclaimed worshipper of our Lord who - instead of spreading love, kindness and compassion - spits out hate and vitriol.
It’s kinda similar with punk, isn’t it? BTW, I did with punk just what you did: grabbed what I found worth it, long ceased to give a fuck about the rest. As 40-odd-year-olds, we’re sorta privileged, aren’t we? We’re old and experienced. We no longer feel obliged to constantly prove our cred to our punk crew (or our parish, for that matter). What about younger and less experienced ones, though? See, what drew me to the PRMBA in the first place was the channel’s educational value. I mean, Wikipedia summaries aside, Finn has an uncanny ability to present and explain entertainment business phenomena. Moreover, he seems to be on a mission to educate younger scene members. To help them avoid the mistakes he himself has made. Unironically, I think it’s a noble cause.
So, what about switching from macro to micro for a change and seeing that hypothetical punk lad, stuck in punk negativity, surrounded by and drawing inspiration from all the wrong kinds of attitudes? I guess Finn is speaking much more to him than to us, 40-odd years old geezers ;)
I grew up to become an engineer. My background as a drummer touring in a punk band is a double-edged sword. I work harder than most, I can always make things work, photoshop, videos, etc. The DIY ethics have been huge for me. The catch is I tend to clash with almost everyone who has any kind of authority and approach everything purely from an altruistic standpoint. I have a reputation of being the go to guy for almost anything except furthering a business agenda which makes entering management or progressing my career further pretty challenging. I'll still continue because I think it's the right thing, but have become aware that I don't know how to manage management vs. engineering decisions because I choose engineering 95% of the time.
Just hook up with a manager with similar visions and gives you the freedom to create. I know, easier said than done - but they are out there.
Punk isn't a sound, and it certainly isn't a look, it's a state if mind. That's why I consider Tiny Tim, Public Enemy, and Phil Ochs to be "more punk" than, say, Green Day, Blink 182, or Sum 41.
Wrong. It's all those things.
Blink 182 said "we are going to do this shit, this way, be successful and not give a solitary shit what you think about it."
Few bands are more punk rock that Blink.
I mix p.e. and phil ochs into my aus-rotten and avail heavy Playlists weekly.