What I love so much about this show is that is dives into real life problems and situations so effectively that you almost feel like you're watching real people but then characters names are Mr. Peanut Butter, Butterscotch, and Princess Carolyn
Honestly? If Hollyhock wasn't a blood relative, I could absolutely see BoJack hooking up with her after finding out she wasn't his daughter, and it would have been almost entirely because she was a female horse that was nothing like his mother. He struggles to seperate emotional vulnerability from long term sexual relationships, and continuing his friendship with Hollyhock would probably lead to him thinking he's in love with her romantically, and we all know he doesnt do non sexual romance.
I imagine Hollyhock may have come to the same conclusion after seeing the interview. Bojack says Sarah Lynn was like a daughter to him, and then in the same breath admits to sleeping with her. While she probably felt vindicated in cutting contact with him, that's such an awful thing for her to realize.
I doubt it. Bojack throughout this entire show has rarely ever interact with any other horses and Hollyhock being a teenager who wasn't connected to a woman he dated in the past, wouldn't be on his radar. He's dated young women but they were always young women with Penny being the exception because she looked like Charlotte... That doesn't make it better, but he's not actually going out to high school's banging teenagers. But the man is a massive screw up.
That moment where we cut to PC’s reaction when Bojack states Sarah Lynn was different from all the other women he had sex (before he Admitted to have sex with Sarah) and that he “loved her” is begging the question, what does PC think of this? Is PC hurt when Bojack simply disregards her relationship with him? Is she concerned that Bojack did take advantage of her being his agent? Does she feel creeped out at how Bojack says “I loved Sarah Lynn?” Mind you he does say “she was like a daughter to me,” but PC had that eyes wide open followed by looking down when Bojack said the first lines. Is she thinking “Do I really know Bojack?” Before the second interview, PC was willing to defend Bojack and made up excuses for him, but when Bojack confessed to Diane (who was the one who cornered Bojack on what exactly he did) and her that he did give drugs to Sarah and that he did delay calling the police, she is genuinely shaken. Diane is both angered and deeply sad, PC I don’t think said anything. Perhaps PC’s job as an agent, and her own highly personal relationship with Bojack, gave her the incentive to not delve further?
I think it was more about the addition of "She wasn't like those other girls" tbh, since that's when it cuts to her. It almost implies that "those other girls"-herself included-were meaningless. Despite how much she's done for him, despite how much they've been through, despite everything. She's just another one of Those Girls.
@@citriosis thats highly likely. Here is bojack throwing her under the bus. How many times did she keep him in hollywoo when he fucked everything up? The secretariat movie, Philbert? These were admittedly near guarantee success for BoJack if he actually did his job. She even slept with the guy. And she was there for him and vice versa. And he literally to a public audience said "Yeah that didn't matter." Also, we could speculate that this is running through PC's mind. , PC has a kid now-a daughter-the way bojack is treating these women he had relations with, what if it were her daughter? What example does she set for her daughter if she defends this guy who doesn't care about the women he hurts?
@@bradhorowitz2765all that on top of bojack telling her “I do love you, as much as someone like me can” back in the restaurant fight episode, which I feel is implied to be the first time PC has ever heard those words out of his mouth. for it all to be essentially void is I think what cut the hardest - 23 years and no love to show for it.
Tbh I think it was both. To hear Bojack saying I loved SL making her one of those people he didn’t really care for or respect or love would’ve been hard to hear especially because she spent 25yrs truly loving and looking out for him. On the other hand I think the “do I really know Bojack” thing is valid. PC is not a stranger to the knowledge that Bojack took advantage of her for years and disregarded her, didn’t appreciate her. Heck a few of their earliest interactions was him demeaning her even though she got him a part and came to the set to support him as he’d asked. She knows Bojack is deeply selfish. But I don’t think she had ever known that Bojack delayed calling for help for SL. I think there’s an element of realizing Bojack claimed to love a woman he got hooked on drugs and slept with because he felt like in the moment, and then delayed getting help for co tributing to her demise… that’s a realization that maybe Bojack truly can’t love anyone properly, including her.
Its crazy how its 2024 and people still make videos about bojack horseman.. I need to rewatch it again for the 4th time to remind myself how good it was.. great content
When Diane continues after she said she "kept thinking", there's a very subtle shattering noise, like the veil had been broken, she stopped denying her gut feeling, and she would never see him the same way again.
Xerox of a Xerox is the most underrated episode of the show I think. It's always been a favourite of mine but it gets overshadowed by the penultimate episodes and other favourites like the underwater one, free churro, the episode with the fly guy and the flashbacks and piece of sbit (all 10 out of 10s!) but Xerox of a Xerox is like the ozymandias of bojack in terms of everything coming together and collapsing the house of cards. It's brutal to watch but so on point and real and recontextualises the whole show. Love these retrospectives by the way
One of the most toxic friends I’ve had in my life thought that the almost sexual encounter between Bojack and Penny wasn’t Bojack’s fault because it was technically legal. Because he was a groomer himself and projected himself on Bojack.
Bojack shouldn’t have left his door open given her the opportunity to come in. Penny shouldn’t have told him the legal age of consent in Nevada. Told him she knows how to put a condom on. Came back after he turned her down the first time. She’s old enough to also be held accountable for her actions. Bojack didn’t groom her. He isn’t the one who even initiated a sexual encounter it was her l. He should of had self control and is an awful person but the way y’all absolve everyone else actions and place all blame on bojack is crazy
@@brettjohnson536 when I was a teenager I had a, to understate it, abusive father, and this friend basically forcibly inserted himself into my life as father figure and it was a weird grooming thing. He basically wanted his own weird cult family because he was into Charles Manson in a weird way. Guy was a manipulative worm.
@@tarikd25 yeah we maybe shouldn’t completely infantilize Penny but a 50 something having sex with a teenager isn’t okay and this former friend I had thought it was okay because it was technically legal.
I appreciate the complex characters in BoJack Horseman because they feel so real. I also love how the show doesn’t excuse people’s hurtful actions and still holds characters accountable. This show also understands that just because a character is relatable or sympathetic, it doesn’t mean that it absolves them of their moral responsibility. Great video!
Except that some people don't get called out as much in the show as others. We all know Bojack is a screw up and he does bad things, but look at the times that pc, or todd, or Diane or Mr peanut butter have done terrible things and don't get called out as hard as he gets. Do they sometimes suffer for their actions? Sure, but the cold fact of the matter is that sometimes these guys do worse things in Bojack and they don't get anywhere near its punished
I think this show is rather optimistic about how effective "cancel culture" really is against male celebrities. Many have gotten away with way way worse than Bojack. However, he did have a hand in the death of a beloved pop star, so that may have increased vitriol against him. If he was more famous than Sarah Lynn, no one would have cared.
I think it’s cause we see bojack stumble into scenarios in which he can take advantage of someone instead of seeking them out, which is honestly pretty accurate to the real world a lot of predators don’t seek out victims but if someone “lets” them take advantage they don’t see it as predatory behaviour.
This is such an important conversation to be had because, in real life, we underestimate the impact our “point of view” has, not only when it comes to public figures, but when it comes to personal relationships as well. We have a harder time letting go or being objective when it comes to people we know and care about- despite how awful their actions can be. Because of that, the same actions you would scrutinise a stranger for, you allow into your own life. And that can be pretty dangerous.
Honestly if Bojack was a real person I'd probably think he was just another asshole in hollywood. Only because of the show do we know just destructive he is as a person. Most of his crimes even after the interview would be unknown to us, so it would just be rumors. And the fact he has toxic relationships with women would be typical and not really surprising. Bojack is a criticism of real people in hollywood that act that way, so he wouldn't particullary stand out. Honestly I think if Bojack was real he'd probably never go to prison or ever be held accountable.
Yeah BoJack pretty much served himself up on a platter with that 2nd interview. Most guys like him move like Hank Hippopopolous. Pay hush money, maintain good relations with big players in Hollywoo that'll make issues go away. And be on his best behavior in the public eye.
Teaaaa exactly. Things are dealt with in the shadows! All those names diane brought up in the book tour are legitimate bad guys who PR'd themselves back into the publics good grace. Its about who you know and how much you can pay to keep it quiet. We'reseeing that now with diddy and everyone lyinghiding and pretending theyre innocent @bronxishomenomatterwhereig3149
@@bronxishomenomatterwhereig3149 Yeah that was one slight criticism I had of the end of the series. Not that he didn't ultimately deserve it, but the already established with the Hank Hippopopolis episode that the world of the show is much like the real world in that celebrities who do these kind of things generally speaking don't tend to face many consequences fir their actions, so it was slightly inconsistent. Also, it kinda bothered me that there's a big emphasis on Bojack finally getting what's coming to him, but from what we know nothing happens to Hank and he probably did much worse stuff than Bojack. That being said, it is kind of implied at the end that after a year people have more or less forgotten about it and Bojack's probably not going to have much trouble getting back into the industry
11:06 Personally, i was relieved that biscuits and paige began to hold him accountable. He wouldn't have been stopped otherwise, he has no self control and very little follow through towards change. I think it's unfair, as well, for disliking the women for doing their jobs. They are good at what they do. It's pretty annoying that bojack can be good at his job and get away with murder. Why can't the women? Especially if what they do serves the greater good. And to be honest, i think reasonable people would be able to understand bojack's pain and disavow his actions in the same breath. One is not a good excuse for the other. The show portrays how a very dangerous and careless man rationalises his wrongs, and is unwilling to put in the work until he is forced to, in prison. And even then, he doesn't learn his lesson and wants to go back to hollywoo(d)(b). The show attracts people who see themselves in bojack, and to admit his hypocrisy would reveal their own - ironically, proving the point the show reiterates. Just my 2c. (I appreciate the comparison to rudabega! He was a great character for holding a mirror to bojack, for the audience's consideration. Vanessa's character twist was my fave!)
Long comment ahead I just love this topic so much. When I see criticism of this show from people who don’t understand it they always point out the ending as a message that people can’t change and that recovery is pointless when the opposite is true. The ending was more a reflection of reality and a moment to look at things from the outside. It’s a moment where Bojack is actually faced with his promise to better himself and take accountability. It’s a moment where Bojack learns that it’s not enough to just make changes with yourself and expect people to accept that. It’s a moment where Bojack needs to come to terms with actual consequences being apart of his journey to grow, complete with relapses and severed connections. The ending is so hopeful because it shows so much more vulnerability from Bojack than we usually see. We see him breaking down when his journey to self recovery isn’t what he wants and he isn’t able to just settle down and live a good life after what he did. It’s a test for him to accept everything that comes with wanting to actually change yourself. If you’ve hurt people and you want to atone for that you aren’t owed anything from anybody. Not forgiveness, care, patience, or attention. But, Bojack doesn’t understand that. He thinks he deserves that because he’s taken the first step of many to change, and when people aren’t just okay with him immediately he doesn’t know how to handle it. When people claim that they just dug up old dirt on Bojack in the last season as an excuse to ruin his new life and send a message that he can’t change, I can’t help but think about the very first season where Bojack apologizes to Herb. He can’t comprehend that Herb wouldn’t forgive him then, and can’t comprehend that the world can’t forgive him now. It’s not a past mistake being dug up, its consequences catching up to him. Bojack can put on a sympathetic face and say sorry for what he did, but he can’t handle when that apology doesn’t work on everyone. When people drift out of his life or are hostile towards him he cannot understand it despite Herb spelling it out to him in the very first season. Bojack didn’t change nearly as much as some people think he did. He made progress in so many ways, but that doesn’t absolve him of everything he’s done. We just want that for him because we’ve followed him for so long. Some people got so attached to him that any consequences he faced no matter how justifiable were blown out of proportion in their minds. Bojack deserved to be held accountable, and that is the most hopeful thing about the ending. He’s able to hit rock bottom and see that his actions will affect him for the rest of his life whether it’s his public perception or his personal relationships that got damaged. But, he doesn’t give up. He briefly relapses and falls into a vicious cycle, but he also does his time in prison and reflects not just on his past mistakes but also on his reactions and deflection. That is incredibly hopeful. I’d say even more than this fantasy idea of leaving your old life behind and starting over while still being in good standing with your past relationships, many of which you’ve actively harmed in that past you’re running from. Bojack isn’t a changed man just because he says he is, but it’s harder to understand that when we follow his perspective. A simple perspective change shows all the harm Bojack had done and all the atonement he needs for that harm. He got a gentle ending all things considered.
Ha-ha funny horse show makes you think about life in ways you never did before I think a large part is how incredible Will Arnett is. Everything hes in, he raises the bar Hes not just a good comedian, not just a good actor but when he does voice roles he puts EVERYTHING into it. Even lego batman hes giving it his all He gave bojack such a deep complexity that other actors wouldn't quite hit
I think a problem creators will always suffer with shows like Bojack is that a portion of the audience is always going to be way out of their depth when it comes to actively engaging with its themes and messaging. Which honestly has led to some of the greatest monologues in media, imo. (I genuinely adore the therapist's monologue from Rick and Morty, for example.) Also, it's more coincidental than anything I imagine, but I like how the show changes with Bojack's personal awareness of the harm he's done. Early season its all excuses and excusing, but by the end, we, and Bojack, are made very explicitly aware of his wrongdoings. I feel it mirrors the growing awareness that genuine accountability requires.
I also think like many, this show’s fanbase has a misogyny issue. Many people see themselves in bojak because bojak behaves in a way that a significant amount of people sincerely find permissible and easily absolvable for a man. People hate the women who leave him in this show because society does in fact expect women to be accountable the men around them; think Courtney Love after Kurt Cobain’s death.
What he did with Sarah Lynns was like what Ashton Kutcher did when his girlfriend got murdered, waited outside for half an hour, calling his pr instead of 911
And THIS is why having a 'male antihero' protagonist is never really "clearly not endorsing such a character". The eyes that we see a story through is what we will always empathize with first.
The only character I’ve ever outright said I hated is the horse therapist from rehab. It just felt like he used Bihari as a scapegoat for his own fall back into alcoholism and took no personal accountability for it, which was the whole lesson Bojack had to learn in rehab. Plus he breaks patient-doctor confidentiality for what feels like petty revenge. Yes, therapists are supposed to report criminal behavior, but he clearly didn’t see the need to report Bojack (as an assumed mandated reporter) during his time in rehab. It is only AFTER Bojack’s first interview that he speaks to reporters and tells them everything Bojack divulged in what was meant to be a safe setting. It came off as spiteful and petty more than attempting to do the right thing. Idk if this makes sense but I would be interested to get your perspective on the therapist horse character.
When Bojack started in 2014 I was a college student going through the motions of life and mostly come over my hump of destructive behavior I had done…mostly. As someone who had an abusive childhood, PTSD, and coming out of my period of extreme drug and alcohol use (not perfect now but sooo much better) it’s crazy how this show has kind of evolved for me in the way I perceive it. I almost commiserated with it back then, and related to Bojack in certain ways. Mainly because I had some of his characteristics (I’m more of a Diane) and because I surrounded myself with people like him. I don’t know if I was necessarily rooting for him, because in my mind I was convinced back then people cannot change. Full stop. But have learned in time since then they can, and life can be ever evolving for us as individuals - because people around you, at least one, is going to change for the better. I think Bojack’s stunted mindset alongside his trauma and fame made him pretty much indifferent to how he treated those around him. In survivor mode, you will take whatever you can to feel “better” I don’t think you really consider others. At least in my experience. But you have to see at some point that cannot be the excuse anymore because someone out there is going to hold you accountable. We are all flawed, even Mr.PB who had the perfect life so to speak had his toxic traits. When the drinking the partying, the drugs the sex end, you have to look at yourself and realize damn I haven’t dealt with anything and in his case he’s 50, and he still needed to work through his shit. You can run for a long time, but it always catches up. Anyway. Thanks for allowing the rant 😅
I watched the show again and I did'nt related to Bojack as much as I did before (I was depressed and tought We were the same even if the worst thing I did was probably fighting with a friend at the time). And I genuibely hated hin for a while, but it's imposible, they make you feel what he feels, they make you understand, hell I can't even hate Beatrice! i do think that Bojack needed to be canceled, and I'm also glad that he did'nt died at the end of the show because that would have ruined everything.
One bit of writing on this show I've always liked is that BoJack never says "she came onto me" about Penny. He eventually tells Diane she kissed him, but not as a defense of what happened but a matter of fact retelling of why he sucks. Technically she did make the first move. But he turned her down twice knowing it was wrong. We the audience don't know who made the third and final move, but it doesn't matter. And the writers know it doesn't matter if it was Penny or BoJack the third time, because no matter what the end result is wrong. He manipulated and groomed an entire family without meaning to, and that's what makes BoJack such a danger. As Biscuits points out he has this power over people, but he doesn't even realize it.
I think it's possible to relate to Bojack but not be the same or even close but into some aspect have gone through something similar or something that made you feel the same way
Remember; if someone’s personality reminds of of Bojack Horseman in any way, that’s a huge red flag. Source: I ignored it and it was a mistake. Fun fact; the person was a woman. Not a man.
I think it's possible to relate to Bojack and not be the same Or close like having gone through something similar or something that made you feel the same way .
All you'd have to do is make Bojack a side character with no background information. Every person would loathe Bojack more and more with every appearance. Bojack's greatest strength as a main character IS being the main character. His POV gives him that cover of protection. The nuance here comes with how we, the audience, see Bojack as the protagonist. We see where ALL the horrible, rancid and depravity of Bojack's worst aspects come from. It's not an excuse for his actions. Just a fact of what Bojack is.
Just a minor correction about the age of consent thing for Penny. The law does matter for her case, not in a defense of Bojack however, it's actually as a case against him. When it comes to states and their ages of consent, if someone travels across state lines for someone that isn't of age in their state but is in another, that's actually illegal and the FEDERAL government would step in. In certain cases, it would be considered trafficking. (if he took her to a different state)
3rd time watching the show , it took me a third time watching the episode to realize how creepy he was when it came to Penny, but i truly believed he rejected the advances and her mom walked in at the wrong possible moment.. It was the one line that he could have done it later in the series .. that if her mom didn't walk in Penny would've slept with him .. consent or not .. so it's her freind dying of alcohol poisoning and the scary scenario of what if Penny went through with it .. that's terrifying to her .. I went into a situation where I went to a boys house at night and I thought we were just gonna hang out , he brought alcohol.. I didn't know that he was trying to get me drunk to sleep with me , we had a 5 year age gap and I just graduated high school and didn't see the power difference and internalized it was my mistake and he could've ruined my life - I'm lucky I didn't get pregnant.. at 30 years old it hit me , that was rape - I had no full understanding nor in my right mind to consent- he knew better and had every intention- this was suppose to be my freind. So I can see why Penny was terrified of bojack and the perspective of is he gonna pursue her again sortive thing. In my situation yeah I could've not been in his room alone with him - however I was alone with most of my freinds and nothing like that ever happened.. which made me very nieve .. i was inconsolable for weeks when the realization hit and that was 10 years ago . I came out and said it and he already always had his suspicion
It's fascinating seeing people with the opposite reaction than me. Some will relate to bojack and use that as proof he's not that bad, but to me it was proof that I'm not that good (mostly for the stuff like the self-loathing in Stupid Piece of Sh%t)
17:50 although we are told, more than once, that they are the good guys we are shown, more than once, that they are not, specially Rutabega, he is a cheater, he is shown as a terrible parent, and Geko is also shown as a bad parent, but not so directly, she neglects her family, similar to Rutabega, more in the time aspect, we are shown she is good otherwise, meanwhile PC was shown as bad, and Juda, well, he is the best boy in every scenario, even his one mistake is, ultimately, positive, based on how much he trusts PC can do it, and probably he didn't understood at the time the reason behind that was irrational.
I think this maybe says more about how we should change how we treat people irl than how we should see bojack. Not forgive them for these actions, but recognise they are people and sympathise that they aren't intentionally being evil, just really really misinformed, and need to learn how to behave respectfully to others.
I have limited sympathy for Rutabega Rabbitowitz. He cheated on his wife, we do not know if he ever reveals this to her or their therapist. He expect kids to fix his marriage. He straight up tells PC she is undesirable and needs to settle for whoever will have her. As far as we can tell, he's a manipulative amoral scumbag. That episode doesn't make me feel bad for PC. She 100% screwed the pooch. She had her client's interests in the bag and tossed them out for more money - something she wanted but her client did not. I actually find Bojack the most sympathetic in that episode because he is actually starting to get it, that satisfaction comes from within, and that money and awards and fame dont provide the same joy of creating something you're proud of with people you respect. And of course, I feel the worst for Kelsey Jannings, who has her dreams crushed. but I am also extremely sensitive to the fact that PC led Kelsey to believe Bojack's greed killed the project, not her own. Kelsey and Bojack's professional relationship ends permanently over something that isn't even his fault. I think it would not have been fair for Bojack to fire PC over fumbling his opportunities. But the fact that she ruined any future opportunity with Kelsey, and she lied that it was Bojack holding out for more money and not her, thereby falsely defaming his character - that is the betrayal I wouldn't be able to get over. Not only would I have fired PC, I would have ended my friendship with her. I can accept a friend putting their interests ahead of mine at my expense, but if a friend lied to others about what I did, said, or wanted, and the people who heard the lie believed it, I don't think I could recover from that.
It's amazing how effective the storytelling was that leads us to believe Vanessa Gecko is evil. It's mostly PC talking about her derisively to set our expectations. But the only true bitch moment from Vanessa is when she hears PC doesn't have kids yet and she says, patronizingly, "aww, it will happen, you're still...." And deliberately trails off instead of using the expected word "young" so as to say she isn't young anymore and her time is almost run out, if it hasn't already. It's a deliberate stab right in the insecurities, and the way she delivers it, it seems outright sadistic. She clearly comprehends the anxieties women face regarding the choice between career and family that men so rarely have to make, and the anxieties of becoming sexually and romantically undesirable as they age. And she obviously knows PC is insecure about these things. That moment is not PC projecting ill will in Vanessa, it is an act of sadism. But quite literally everything else, even Vanessa bragging about how being a mom helped her career, how she can have it all, or how her life has all come together as she planned it, this is not neccesarily aimed at PC. It is only through the lens of PC's jealousy and insecurities that Vanessa's successes feel like insults.
Call me crazy, but I didn't root for Princess Carolyn to get BoJack the Pegasus role, because he flat out told he didn't want it. BoJack wanted to do Kelsey's movie, and was kinda too old and out of shape for Pegasus. I just wanted PC to focus on securing BoJack the role he actually wanted.
Even knowing about his past, and having a lot of empathy for him I still think he is a disgusting character. I completely stopped rooting for him after what he waited 17 minutes to save Sarah Lynn. He is so sorry for HIMSELF, but every single time he has a chance to do something good for someone else he blows it in worst possible ways.
Honestly, yes I probably wouldn't like Bojack if I saw that interview, but I don't think I'd quite violently hate him as much as the public in the show did, as there are irl celebrities who've done significantly worse things than Bojack and are still working and generally liked. I also think it's kind of a stretch to say he kickstarted Sarah Lynn's addiction. If anything an experience like that as a child would put you off drinking/drugs in your adult life. Sarah Lynn's addiction was due to her becoming a huge celebrity at a very young age and seeking out ways to deal with the immense pressure. We see that a lot with child stars. I also do think that with the benefit of having seen the show some of the incidents Biscuits is talking about are deliberately being made to sound worse than they were (the fact nobody is completely good or bad in the show is something that makes it brilliant imo). For example, she makes out that Bojack and Wanda was predatory, when it's pretty clear in the show that she was an adult before going into the coma, he doesn't meet her until after she's woken up, and what initially attracts him is that she doesn't know who he is and treats him like a normal person rather than a celebrity, not her "naivety". It was honestly one of the only genuinley non-problematic relationships he had in the entire show. One more thing that slightly irked me was the scene where all the aa members turn on him. I've never been to aa myself, but I know people who have and from what I've heard, the way they behave after the second interview is a big no no in those places. They have really strict group rules about letting your personal opinions of people like thaf affect how you interact with them in the space, and you just wouldn't (and shouldn't) act the way they did irl
I think that the AA group turned on him because Sharona stopped showing up after he threw her under the bus. Not to mention, she is also the one who was hurt by the vodka on set incident. It’s a bit of a stretch to presume that the accidental ingestion of a “grown up drink” triggers a lifetime of poly substance abuse; Sarah Lynne was nowhere near the first or last child to have done so. But Sharona had to take the blame and lose her job. And despite expressing remorse for that, Bojack didn’t even hesitate in sacrificing her to save himself all over again.
Okay, bit of a hot take here: am I the only one who doesn't like the "17 minutes" reveal? Like, not in a "this was so unforgivable" way, but in a "this was a narrative ass pull" way. Up to that point, I just assumed everyone already knew BoJack was involved. It's not exactly like they were hiding the fact that they were on a massive bender. I feel like it only exists to push this idea that Sarah Lynn was some tragic victim of BoJack's abuse and not an adult who was responsible for her own decisions.
This was a _GREAT_ video essay!!!! 😁. I _wish_ I could donate to your Patreon, but _I don't have enough MONEY!!!_ 😭. And that makes me _SAD,_ man!!!! 😭.
In my personal opinion, I feel like people shouldn't cancel others because it's good for them to get canceled. Peoples main priorities should be the victums. Not the abuser.
Honestly I dont like the idea of cancelling forever. If someone commited a crime then they should go to jail. That's what the justice system is for, and it's not always perfect but as a catholic I believe in forgiveness. It's an important question thats asked but never once answered in this show but once someone has been outed for a misstep or crime and taken steps to apologise and learn what more can they do? We see that jerk who shes petitioning against and while we dont see his redemption arc we cant know for sure hes not actually working on it. But diane never answers, she just says she doesnt know. So is one public disaster just it? One strike and your out? Dont we all say we want prison to be more about rehabilitation than punishment? Bojack deserves prison for what he did and he would probably be a lot happier if he wasn't in hollywood. But he doesnt really have anything to fall back on. Its like when Tonya Harding got expelled from olympic figure skating, but at least she had boxing and other things to fall back on, although I don't even know if I consider that fair either. People should serve their time if they commited a crime. But celebrities are mostly awful people so I don't expect much from them on a moral ground. If it isnt a crime then exiling them likely isnt the answer
The thing that annoys me about biscuits and the reporter, is that a lot of people ignore how evil those 2 women are. They don't actually care about any of the women they mentioned. We kno this, because bojack factually did not groom sarah. Her stepdad did. And neither of those witches are stupid. Any idiot can tell what was happening behind closed doors with that bear. Yet they, essentially let a monster walk so they could dump his crime on to the pile of still real crimes bojack committed as a massive finishing blow. He was a catch. Nothing more to them.
No. I'm 25, a woman and still think penny and probably her parents for the way they raised her are at fault more. He should have said no, but she pushed for it, and he only caved in a weak moment. She wouldn't stop. She ignores basic rules of consent. He even told her "you don't know what you want". If she really saw him as a fatherfigure, he would have to exploit those feelings but her dad is there and bojack showed no interest, even shock and being uncomfortable when she asked him that. She is nearly an adult and inbetween even had time to think about it as he turned her down. Being nice to someone is not grooming, only when you have intentions. Ffs I have uncles in my family that were close to me, I don't try to fuck them. She has no boundaries and then when she gets caught suddenly has a trauma. That's weird as shit. There are people who actually were groomed and molested as kids and not teenagers running after old people for no fucking reason.
I completely agree, but feel like no one wants to look at how much diane benefits from POV. She is absolutely awful, and keeps intentionally hueting people around her. However bc we look through both her pov and bojacks, a lot of those awful things she does arent judged as harshly.
@ same, she does bad stuff to everyone she meets, never apologizes, and just does it all over again. We never see her break that cycle, though the show implies it. She never makes amends for it. She just goes “we are all just people, bad people dont exist” which is really convenient when you are doing the stuff she is
No it's not impossible for Penny to force herself on Bojack. Power isn't this static thing that stays consistent and someone can use the power someone has over them against them as well. Multiple people have done it before it's not this "impossible" feat. Does that mean thats what happened? Fuck no but it's not impossible
This is such a toxic take. Penny was groomed, end of the story, she had no power over him and due to her age there was no way for her to have any sense of power and force Bojack to make that decision. Very scary to see that people think that minors/victims have any power over their abusers.
@@nissie5199I think they just mean it's hypothetically physically possible. If Bojack had gotten drunk and passed out and Penny had assaulted him while he was unconscious. She would be the one in the wrong, regardless of age. That's not what happened on the show, but it is possible for a deranged teen to have power over an adult.
Trainspotting was a good example of that. She tricked Renton and he had to keep seeing her or else she'd tell on him but even then he did manage to get away
What I love so much about this show is that is dives into real life problems and situations so effectively that you almost feel like you're watching real people but then characters names are Mr. Peanut Butter, Butterscotch, and Princess Carolyn
not even talking about how they look
Wot @@milannovotny2085
And Cutie Cutie Cupcake (PC's mom)
FR though.
Don't forget about Socket light a human boy 😂
Honestly? If Hollyhock wasn't a blood relative, I could absolutely see BoJack hooking up with her after finding out she wasn't his daughter, and it would have been almost entirely because she was a female horse that was nothing like his mother.
He struggles to seperate emotional vulnerability from long term sexual relationships, and continuing his friendship with Hollyhock would probably lead to him thinking he's in love with her romantically, and we all know he doesnt do non sexual romance.
Thank you! Well said. 👏🏼
I hate thinking about this but you're so right.
I hate this so so much, but thought the exact same thing. Well said.
I imagine Hollyhock may have come to the same conclusion after seeing the interview. Bojack says Sarah Lynn was like a daughter to him, and then in the same breath admits to sleeping with her. While she probably felt vindicated in cutting contact with him, that's such an awful thing for her to realize.
I doubt it. Bojack throughout this entire show has rarely ever interact with any other horses and Hollyhock being a teenager who wasn't connected to a woman he dated in the past, wouldn't be on his radar.
He's dated young women but they were always young women with Penny being the exception because she looked like Charlotte... That doesn't make it better, but he's not actually going out to high school's banging teenagers.
But the man is a massive screw up.
That moment where we cut to PC’s reaction when Bojack states Sarah Lynn was different from all the other women he had sex (before he Admitted to have sex with Sarah) and that he “loved her” is begging the question, what does PC think of this? Is PC hurt when Bojack simply disregards her relationship with him? Is she concerned that Bojack did take advantage of her being his agent? Does she feel creeped out at how Bojack says “I loved Sarah Lynn?” Mind you he does say “she was like a daughter to me,” but PC had that eyes wide open followed by looking down when Bojack said the first lines. Is she thinking “Do I really know Bojack?” Before the second interview, PC was willing to defend Bojack and made up excuses for him, but when Bojack confessed to Diane (who was the one who cornered Bojack on what exactly he did) and her that he did give drugs to Sarah and that he did delay calling the police, she is genuinely shaken. Diane is both angered and deeply sad, PC I don’t think said anything. Perhaps PC’s job as an agent, and her own highly personal relationship with Bojack, gave her the incentive to not delve further?
I think it was more about the addition of "She wasn't like those other girls" tbh, since that's when it cuts to her. It almost implies that "those other girls"-herself included-were meaningless. Despite how much she's done for him, despite how much they've been through, despite everything. She's just another one of Those Girls.
@@citriosis thats highly likely. Here is bojack throwing her under the bus. How many times did she keep him in hollywoo when he fucked everything up? The secretariat movie, Philbert? These were admittedly near guarantee success for BoJack if he actually did his job. She even slept with the guy. And she was there for him and vice versa. And he literally to a public audience said "Yeah that didn't matter." Also, we could speculate that this is running through PC's mind. , PC has a kid now-a daughter-the way bojack is treating these women he had relations with, what if it were her daughter? What example does she set for her daughter if she defends this guy who doesn't care about the women he hurts?
@@bradhorowitz2765all that on top of bojack telling her “I do love you, as much as someone like me can” back in the restaurant fight episode, which I feel is implied to be the first time PC has ever heard those words out of his mouth. for it all to be essentially void is I think what cut the hardest - 23 years and no love to show for it.
@@abbababba8186YES! That’s what I thought of immediately, the “did you ever love me at all?” Moment at Elephante
Tbh I think it was both. To hear Bojack saying I loved SL making her one of those people he didn’t really care for or respect or love would’ve been hard to hear especially because she spent 25yrs truly loving and looking out for him.
On the other hand I think the “do I really know Bojack” thing is valid. PC is not a stranger to the knowledge that Bojack took advantage of her for years and disregarded her, didn’t appreciate her. Heck a few of their earliest interactions was him demeaning her even though she got him a part and came to the set to support him as he’d asked. She knows Bojack is deeply selfish.
But I don’t think she had ever known that Bojack delayed calling for help for SL. I think there’s an element of realizing Bojack claimed to love a woman he got hooked on drugs and slept with because he felt like in the moment, and then delayed getting help for co tributing to her demise… that’s a realization that maybe Bojack truly can’t love anyone properly, including her.
Its crazy how its 2024 and people still make videos about bojack horseman.. I need to rewatch it again for the 4th time to remind myself how good it was.. great content
So real 🎉emotional support horse sometimes !
When Diane continues after she said she "kept thinking", there's a very subtle shattering noise, like the veil had been broken, she stopped denying her gut feeling, and she would never see him the same way again.
I suppose so. Not like it wasn't that obvious
Xerox of a Xerox is the most underrated episode of the show I think. It's always been a favourite of mine but it gets overshadowed by the penultimate episodes and other favourites like the underwater one, free churro, the episode with the fly guy and the flashbacks and piece of sbit (all 10 out of 10s!) but Xerox of a Xerox is like the ozymandias of bojack in terms of everything coming together and collapsing the house of cards. It's brutal to watch but so on point and real and recontextualises the whole show. Love these retrospectives by the way
It's so damning and empowering at the same time
One of the most toxic friends I’ve had in my life thought that the almost sexual encounter between Bojack and Penny wasn’t Bojack’s fault because it was technically legal. Because he was a groomer himself and projected himself on Bojack.
Please tell me you told him off and explained how Bojack was in the wrong
Hope you don't mind if I ask, but were there other reasons you say he was a groomer? Or just because of what he said about the show?
Bojack shouldn’t have left his door open given her the opportunity to come in. Penny shouldn’t have told him the legal age of consent in Nevada. Told him she knows how to put a condom on. Came back after he turned her down the first time. She’s old enough to also be held accountable for her actions. Bojack didn’t groom her. He isn’t the one who even initiated a sexual encounter it was her l. He should of had self control and is an awful person but the way y’all absolve everyone else actions and place all blame on bojack is crazy
@@brettjohnson536 when I was a teenager I had a, to understate it, abusive father, and this friend basically forcibly inserted himself into my life as father figure and it was a weird grooming thing. He basically wanted his own weird cult family because he was into Charles Manson in a weird way. Guy was a manipulative worm.
@@tarikd25 yeah we maybe shouldn’t completely infantilize Penny but a 50 something having sex with a teenager isn’t okay and this former friend I had thought it was okay because it was technically legal.
I appreciate the complex characters in BoJack Horseman because they feel so real. I also love how the show doesn’t excuse people’s hurtful actions and still holds characters accountable. This show also understands that just because a character is relatable or sympathetic, it doesn’t mean that it absolves them of their moral responsibility. Great video!
Except that some people don't get called out as much in the show as others. We all know Bojack is a screw up and he does bad things, but look at the times that pc, or todd, or Diane or Mr peanut butter have done terrible things and don't get called out as hard as he gets.
Do they sometimes suffer for their actions? Sure, but the cold fact of the matter is that sometimes these guys do worse things in Bojack and they don't get anywhere near its punished
I think this show is rather optimistic about how effective "cancel culture" really is against male celebrities. Many have gotten away with way way worse than Bojack. However, he did have a hand in the death of a beloved pop star, so that may have increased vitriol against him. If he was more famous than Sarah Lynn, no one would have cared.
Oh well, the vitrol is pretty much gone after a year or so.
yeah, the show somehow ends up being both extremely optimistic and extremely pessimistic in this regard
Right? Like damn predators actually lose their careers. God I wish
JK Rowling straight up saying she's been "cancelled" five times
I think it’s cause we see bojack stumble into scenarios in which he can take advantage of someone instead of seeking them out, which is honestly pretty accurate to the real world a lot of predators don’t seek out victims but if someone “lets” them take advantage they don’t see it as predatory behaviour.
This is such an important conversation to be had because, in real life, we underestimate the impact our “point of view” has, not only when it comes to public figures, but when it comes to personal relationships as well. We have a harder time letting go or being objective when it comes to people we know and care about- despite how awful their actions can be. Because of that, the same actions you would scrutinise a stranger for, you allow into your own life. And that can be pretty dangerous.
Honestly if Bojack was a real person I'd probably think he was just another asshole in hollywood. Only because of the show do we know just destructive he is as a person. Most of his crimes even after the interview would be unknown to us, so it would just be rumors. And the fact he has toxic relationships with women would be typical and not really surprising. Bojack is a criticism of real people in hollywood that act that way, so he wouldn't particullary stand out. Honestly I think if Bojack was real he'd probably never go to prison or ever be held accountable.
Yeah BoJack pretty much served himself up on a platter with that 2nd interview. Most guys like him move like Hank Hippopopolous.
Pay hush money, maintain good relations with big players in Hollywoo that'll make issues go away. And be on his best behavior in the public eye.
True
He only went to prison for b&e not for hurting others
Teaaaa exactly. Things are dealt with in the shadows!
All those names diane brought up in the book tour are legitimate bad guys who PR'd themselves back into the publics good grace. Its about who you know and how much you can pay to keep it quiet. We'reseeing that now with diddy and everyone lyinghiding and pretending theyre innocent @bronxishomenomatterwhereig3149
@@bronxishomenomatterwhereig3149
Yeah that was one slight criticism I had of the end of the series. Not that he didn't ultimately deserve it, but the already established with the Hank Hippopopolis episode that the world of the show is much like the real world in that celebrities who do these kind of things generally speaking don't tend to face many consequences fir their actions, so it was slightly inconsistent. Also, it kinda bothered me that there's a big emphasis on Bojack finally getting what's coming to him, but from what we know nothing happens to Hank and he probably did much worse stuff than Bojack. That being said, it is kind of implied at the end that after a year people have more or less forgotten about it and Bojack's probably not going to have much trouble getting back into the industry
@@brettjohnson536 Yep. He already had a movie roll lined up. A very cringe one benefiting of a miserable has been like him. But yeah.
11:06 Personally, i was relieved that biscuits and paige began to hold him accountable. He wouldn't have been stopped otherwise, he has no self control and very little follow through towards change. I think it's unfair, as well, for disliking the women for doing their jobs. They are good at what they do. It's pretty annoying that bojack can be good at his job and get away with murder. Why can't the women? Especially if what they do serves the greater good. And to be honest, i think reasonable people would be able to understand bojack's pain and disavow his actions in the same breath. One is not a good excuse for the other. The show portrays how a very dangerous and careless man rationalises his wrongs, and is unwilling to put in the work until he is forced to, in prison. And even then, he doesn't learn his lesson and wants to go back to hollywoo(d)(b). The show attracts people who see themselves in bojack, and to admit his hypocrisy would reveal their own - ironically, proving the point the show reiterates. Just my 2c. (I appreciate the comparison to rudabega! He was a great character for holding a mirror to bojack, for the audience's consideration. Vanessa's character twist was my fave!)
Long comment ahead I just love this topic so much.
When I see criticism of this show from people who don’t understand it they always point out the ending as a message that people can’t change and that recovery is pointless when the opposite is true.
The ending was more a reflection of reality and a moment to look at things from the outside.
It’s a moment where Bojack is actually faced with his promise to better himself and take accountability. It’s a moment where Bojack learns that it’s not enough to just make changes with yourself and expect people to accept that. It’s a moment where Bojack needs to come to terms with actual consequences being apart of his journey to grow, complete with relapses and severed connections.
The ending is so hopeful because it shows so much more vulnerability from Bojack than we usually see. We see him breaking down when his journey to self recovery isn’t what he wants and he isn’t able to just settle down and live a good life after what he did. It’s a test for him to accept everything that comes with wanting to actually change yourself.
If you’ve hurt people and you want to atone for that you aren’t owed anything from anybody. Not forgiveness, care, patience, or attention. But, Bojack doesn’t understand that. He thinks he deserves that because he’s taken the first step of many to change, and when people aren’t just okay with him immediately he doesn’t know how to handle it.
When people claim that they just dug up old dirt on Bojack in the last season as an excuse to ruin his new life and send a message that he can’t change, I can’t help but think about the very first season where Bojack apologizes to Herb. He can’t comprehend that Herb wouldn’t forgive him then, and can’t comprehend that the world can’t forgive him now. It’s not a past mistake being dug up, its consequences catching up to him. Bojack can put on a sympathetic face and say sorry for what he did, but he can’t handle when that apology doesn’t work on everyone. When people drift out of his life or are hostile towards him he cannot understand it despite Herb spelling it out to him in the very first season.
Bojack didn’t change nearly as much as some people think he did. He made progress in so many ways, but that doesn’t absolve him of everything he’s done. We just want that for him because we’ve followed him for so long. Some people got so attached to him that any consequences he faced no matter how justifiable were blown out of proportion in their minds.
Bojack deserved to be held accountable, and that is the most hopeful thing about the ending. He’s able to hit rock bottom and see that his actions will affect him for the rest of his life whether it’s his public perception or his personal relationships that got damaged. But, he doesn’t give up. He briefly relapses and falls into a vicious cycle, but he also does his time in prison and reflects not just on his past mistakes but also on his reactions and deflection. That is incredibly hopeful. I’d say even more than this fantasy idea of leaving your old life behind and starting over while still being in good standing with your past relationships, many of which you’ve actively harmed in that past you’re running from.
Bojack isn’t a changed man just because he says he is, but it’s harder to understand that when we follow his perspective. A simple perspective change shows all the harm Bojack had done and all the atonement he needs for that harm. He got a gentle ending all things considered.
Ha-ha funny horse show makes you think about life in ways you never did before
I think a large part is how incredible Will Arnett is. Everything hes in, he raises the bar
Hes not just a good comedian, not just a good actor but when he does voice roles he puts EVERYTHING into it. Even lego batman hes giving it his all
He gave bojack such a deep complexity that other actors wouldn't quite hit
Thank you for actually understanding the purpose of the age of consent!
I think a problem creators will always suffer with shows like Bojack is that a portion of the audience is always going to be way out of their depth when it comes to actively engaging with its themes and messaging. Which honestly has led to some of the greatest monologues in media, imo. (I genuinely adore the therapist's monologue from Rick and Morty, for example.)
Also, it's more coincidental than anything I imagine, but I like how the show changes with Bojack's personal awareness of the harm he's done. Early season its all excuses and excusing, but by the end, we, and Bojack, are made very explicitly aware of his wrongdoings. I feel it mirrors the growing awareness that genuine accountability requires.
I also think like many, this show’s fanbase has a misogyny issue. Many people see themselves in bojak because bojak behaves in a way that a significant amount of people sincerely find permissible and easily absolvable for a man. People hate the women who leave him in this show because society does in fact expect women to be accountable the men around them; think Courtney Love after Kurt Cobain’s death.
Bojack Horseman made the point itself about POV bias brilliantly, with the clip you showed in the first minute. The point being made is crystal clear.
Genuinely love your Bojack videos thank you for this content!
You've become one of my fave creators. ❤
What he did with Sarah Lynns was like what Ashton Kutcher did when his girlfriend got murdered, waited outside for half an hour, calling his pr instead of 911
And THIS is why having a 'male antihero' protagonist is never really "clearly not endorsing such a character". The eyes that we see a story through is what we will always empathize with first.
could endlessly listen to you talk about this show
Another Bojack video W
paige sinclair was hands down my favorite character in the entire show, and while i can't quite say the same of max, they were boffo together
and i love paige's sister, from fresno, questioning the over the top mid atlantic accent
of course, it totally perpetuates the stereotype that female pigs in holywood are all narcissists
pardon me, hollywoo
I loved her outfit
She's by far my favourite character in the show. Her deductive reasoning would put Sherlock Holmes to shame.
I fell asleep watching your Bojack videos playlist and I woke up to a new video. Best timing ever 🫡
im so happy u still make bojack videos bro
I was just binging these videos too lmao excited to see a new one!
feels like u packed an hours worth of content into 24 mins. love ur vids
The only character I’ve ever outright said I hated is the horse therapist from rehab. It just felt like he used Bihari as a scapegoat for his own fall back into alcoholism and took no personal accountability for it, which was the whole lesson Bojack had to learn in rehab. Plus he breaks patient-doctor confidentiality for what feels like petty revenge. Yes, therapists are supposed to report criminal behavior, but he clearly didn’t see the need to report Bojack (as an assumed mandated reporter) during his time in rehab. It is only AFTER Bojack’s first interview that he speaks to reporters and tells them everything Bojack divulged in what was meant to be a safe setting. It came off as spiteful and petty more than attempting to do the right thing.
Idk if this makes sense but I would be interested to get your perspective on the therapist horse character.
hes not actually a therapist which is probably why
@ right, he’s a “therapy horse.” Never liked that line lol
When Bojack started in 2014 I was a college student going through the motions of life and mostly come over my hump of destructive behavior I had done…mostly. As someone who had an abusive childhood, PTSD, and coming out of my period of extreme drug and alcohol use (not perfect now but sooo much better) it’s crazy how this show has kind of evolved for me in the way I perceive it. I almost commiserated with it back then, and related to Bojack in certain ways. Mainly because I had some of his characteristics (I’m more of a Diane) and because I surrounded myself with people like him. I don’t know if I was necessarily rooting for him, because in my mind I was convinced back then people cannot change. Full stop. But have learned in time since then they can, and life can be ever evolving for us as individuals - because people around you, at least one, is going to change for the better. I think Bojack’s stunted mindset alongside his trauma and fame made him pretty much indifferent to how he treated those around him. In survivor mode, you will take whatever you can to feel “better” I don’t think you really consider others. At least in my experience. But you have to see at some point that cannot be the excuse anymore because someone out there is going to hold you accountable. We are all flawed, even Mr.PB who had the perfect life so to speak had his toxic traits. When the drinking the partying, the drugs the sex end, you have to look at yourself and realize damn I haven’t dealt with anything and in his case he’s 50, and he still needed to work through his shit. You can run for a long time, but it always catches up. Anyway. Thanks for allowing the rant 😅
Brilliant video, thank you ❤
I watched the show again and I did'nt related to Bojack as much as I did before (I was depressed and tought We were the same even if the worst thing I did was probably fighting with a friend at the time). And I genuibely hated hin for a while, but it's imposible, they make you feel what he feels, they make you understand, hell I can't even hate Beatrice! i do think that Bojack needed to be canceled, and I'm also glad that he did'nt died at the end of the show because that would have ruined everything.
The only person I rooted for in the show was Tod🤷🏻♀️
One bit of writing on this show I've always liked is that BoJack never says "she came onto me" about Penny. He eventually tells Diane she kissed him, but not as a defense of what happened but a matter of fact retelling of why he sucks. Technically she did make the first move. But he turned her down twice knowing it was wrong. We the audience don't know who made the third and final move, but it doesn't matter. And the writers know it doesn't matter if it was Penny or BoJack the third time, because no matter what the end result is wrong.
He manipulated and groomed an entire family without meaning to, and that's what makes BoJack such a danger. As Biscuits points out he has this power over people, but he doesn't even realize it.
I think it's possible to relate to Bojack but not be the same or even close but into some aspect have gone through something similar or something that made you feel the same way
I’m pretty sure dr champ told biscuits about Sarah Lynn getting drunk on horsin around
Remember; if someone’s personality reminds of of Bojack Horseman in any way, that’s a huge red flag.
Source: I ignored it and it was a mistake. Fun fact; the person was a woman. Not a man.
I think it's possible to relate to Bojack and not be the same Or close like having gone through something similar or something that made you feel the same way .
another great upload homie. keep it uppppp
Congrats on a solid outro
God I love ur videos dude
I really liked this 💙💙
THANK YOU for saying the bit about the age of consent, I have been saying this for years
All you'd have to do is make Bojack a side character with no background information. Every person would loathe Bojack more and more with every appearance. Bojack's greatest strength as a main character IS being the main character. His POV gives him that cover of protection. The nuance here comes with how we, the audience, see Bojack as the protagonist. We see where ALL the horrible, rancid and depravity of Bojack's worst aspects come from. It's not an excuse for his actions. Just a fact of what Bojack is.
Just a minor correction about the age of consent thing for Penny. The law does matter for her case, not in a defense of Bojack however, it's actually as a case against him. When it comes to states and their ages of consent, if someone travels across state lines for someone that isn't of age in their state but is in another, that's actually illegal and the FEDERAL government would step in. In certain cases, it would be considered trafficking. (if he took her to a different state)
3rd time watching the show , it took me a third time watching the episode to realize how creepy he was when it came to Penny, but i truly believed he rejected the advances and her mom walked in at the wrong possible moment.. It was the one line that he could have done it later in the series .. that if her mom didn't walk in Penny would've slept with him .. consent or not .. so it's her freind dying of alcohol poisoning and the scary scenario of what if Penny went through with it .. that's terrifying to her .. I went into a situation where I went to a boys house at night and I thought we were just gonna hang out , he brought alcohol.. I didn't know that he was trying to get me drunk to sleep with me , we had a 5 year age gap and I just graduated high school and didn't see the power difference and internalized it was my mistake and he could've ruined my life - I'm lucky I didn't get pregnant.. at 30 years old it hit me , that was rape - I had no full understanding nor in my right mind to consent- he knew better and had every intention- this was suppose to be my freind. So I can see why Penny was terrified of bojack and the perspective of is he gonna pursue her again sortive thing. In my situation yeah I could've not been in his room alone with him - however I was alone with most of my freinds and nothing like that ever happened.. which made me very nieve .. i was inconsolable for weeks when the realization hit and that was 10 years ago . I came out and said it and he already always had his suspicion
Pag and biscuits are Not enemy’s but merely flowing with the current I believe
It's fascinating seeing people with the opposite reaction than me. Some will relate to bojack and use that as proof he's not that bad, but to me it was proof that I'm not that good (mostly for the stuff like the self-loathing in Stupid Piece of Sh%t)
17:50 although we are told, more than once, that they are the good guys we are shown, more than once, that they are not, specially Rutabega, he is a cheater, he is shown as a terrible parent, and Geko is also shown as a bad parent, but not so directly, she neglects her family, similar to Rutabega, more in the time aspect, we are shown she is good otherwise, meanwhile PC was shown as bad, and Juda, well, he is the best boy in every scenario, even his one mistake is, ultimately, positive, based on how much he trusts PC can do it, and probably he didn't understood at the time the reason behind that was irrational.
hell yeah new video
the video just proves that the most horrible scumbag as the main character is always loved if the script is really good
I think this maybe says more about how we should change how we treat people irl than how we should see bojack. Not forgive them for these actions, but recognise they are people and sympathise that they aren't intentionally being evil, just really really misinformed, and need to learn how to behave respectfully to others.
we're all just guys! just little guys. silly little guys
People have been hating paige and biscuits?? How did they see the expose as anything or than the consequences of bojacks actions the entire series
I have limited sympathy for Rutabega Rabbitowitz. He cheated on his wife, we do not know if he ever reveals this to her or their therapist. He expect kids to fix his marriage. He straight up tells PC she is undesirable and needs to settle for whoever will have her. As far as we can tell, he's a manipulative amoral scumbag. That episode doesn't make me feel bad for PC. She 100% screwed the pooch. She had her client's interests in the bag and tossed them out for more money - something she wanted but her client did not. I actually find Bojack the most sympathetic in that episode because he is actually starting to get it, that satisfaction comes from within, and that money and awards and fame dont provide the same joy of creating something you're proud of with people you respect. And of course, I feel the worst for Kelsey Jannings, who has her dreams crushed. but I am also extremely sensitive to the fact that PC led Kelsey to believe Bojack's greed killed the project, not her own. Kelsey and Bojack's professional relationship ends permanently over something that isn't even his fault. I think it would not have been fair for Bojack to fire PC over fumbling his opportunities. But the fact that she ruined any future opportunity with Kelsey, and she lied that it was Bojack holding out for more money and not her, thereby falsely defaming his character - that is the betrayal I wouldn't be able to get over. Not only would I have fired PC, I would have ended my friendship with her. I can accept a friend putting their interests ahead of mine at my expense, but if a friend lied to others about what I did, said, or wanted, and the people who heard the lie believed it, I don't think I could recover from that.
It's amazing how effective the storytelling was that leads us to believe Vanessa Gecko is evil. It's mostly PC talking about her derisively to set our expectations. But the only true bitch moment from Vanessa is when she hears PC doesn't have kids yet and she says, patronizingly, "aww, it will happen, you're still...." And deliberately trails off instead of using the expected word "young" so as to say she isn't young anymore and her time is almost run out, if it hasn't already. It's a deliberate stab right in the insecurities, and the way she delivers it, it seems outright sadistic. She clearly comprehends the anxieties women face regarding the choice between career and family that men so rarely have to make, and the anxieties of becoming sexually and romantically undesirable as they age. And she obviously knows PC is insecure about these things. That moment is not PC projecting ill will in Vanessa, it is an act of sadism. But quite literally everything else, even Vanessa bragging about how being a mom helped her career, how she can have it all, or how her life has all come together as she planned it, this is not neccesarily aimed at PC. It is only through the lens of PC's jealousy and insecurities that Vanessa's successes feel like insults.
Call me crazy, but I didn't root for Princess Carolyn to get BoJack the Pegasus role, because he flat out told he didn't want it. BoJack wanted to do Kelsey's movie, and was kinda too old and out of shape for Pegasus. I just wanted PC to focus on securing BoJack the role he actually wanted.
and, um, just out of left field, how many times did he throw that one woman's babies on the ground?
Even knowing about his past, and having a lot of empathy for him I still think he is a disgusting character. I completely stopped rooting for him after what he waited 17 minutes to save Sarah Lynn. He is so sorry for HIMSELF, but every single time he has a chance to do something good for someone else he blows it in worst possible ways.
Honestly, yes I probably wouldn't like Bojack if I saw that interview, but I don't think I'd quite violently hate him as much as the public in the show did, as there are irl celebrities who've done significantly worse things than Bojack and are still working and generally liked. I also think it's kind of a stretch to say he kickstarted Sarah Lynn's addiction. If anything an experience like that as a child would put you off drinking/drugs in your adult life. Sarah Lynn's addiction was due to her becoming a huge celebrity at a very young age and seeking out ways to deal with the immense pressure. We see that a lot with child stars. I also do think that with the benefit of having seen the show some of the incidents Biscuits is talking about are deliberately being made to sound worse than they were (the fact nobody is completely good or bad in the show is something that makes it brilliant imo). For example, she makes out that Bojack and Wanda was predatory, when it's pretty clear in the show that she was an adult before going into the coma, he doesn't meet her until after she's woken up, and what initially attracts him is that she doesn't know who he is and treats him like a normal person rather than a celebrity, not her "naivety". It was honestly one of the only genuinley non-problematic relationships he had in the entire show. One more thing that slightly irked me was the scene where all the aa members turn on him. I've never been to aa myself, but I know people who have and from what I've heard, the way they behave after the second interview is a big no no in those places. They have really strict group rules about letting your personal opinions of people like thaf affect how you interact with them in the space, and you just wouldn't (and shouldn't) act the way they did irl
I think that the AA group turned on him because Sharona stopped showing up after he threw her under the bus. Not to mention, she is also the one who was hurt by the vodka on set incident. It’s a bit of a stretch to presume that the accidental ingestion of a “grown up drink” triggers a lifetime of poly substance abuse; Sarah Lynne was nowhere near the first or last child to have done so. But Sharona had to take the blame and lose her job. And despite expressing remorse for that, Bojack didn’t even hesitate in sacrificing her to save himself all over again.
Okay, bit of a hot take here: am I the only one who doesn't like the "17 minutes" reveal? Like, not in a "this was so unforgivable" way, but in a "this was a narrative ass pull" way.
Up to that point, I just assumed everyone already knew BoJack was involved. It's not exactly like they were hiding the fact that they were on a massive bender. I feel like it only exists to push this idea that Sarah Lynn was some tragic victim of BoJack's abuse and not an adult who was responsible for her own decisions.
This was a _GREAT_ video essay!!!! 😁. I _wish_ I could donate to your Patreon, but _I don't have enough MONEY!!!_ 😭. And that makes me _SAD,_ man!!!! 😭.
Egoism is hard but we have to see the problems of others and help them.
Great video.
In my personal opinion, I feel like people shouldn't cancel others because it's good for them to get canceled. Peoples main priorities should be the victums. Not the abuser.
Honestly I dont like the idea of cancelling forever. If someone commited a crime then they should go to jail. That's what the justice system is for, and it's not always perfect but as a catholic I believe in forgiveness.
It's an important question thats asked but never once answered in this show but once someone has been outed for a misstep or crime and taken steps to apologise and learn what more can they do? We see that jerk who shes petitioning against and while we dont see his redemption arc we cant know for sure hes not actually working on it. But diane never answers, she just says she doesnt know. So is one public disaster just it? One strike and your out?
Dont we all say we want prison to be more about rehabilitation than punishment?
Bojack deserves prison for what he did and he would probably be a lot happier if he wasn't in hollywood. But he doesnt really have anything to fall back on. Its like when Tonya Harding got expelled from olympic figure skating, but at least she had boxing and other things to fall back on, although I don't even know if I consider that fair either.
People should serve their time if they commited a crime. But celebrities are mostly awful people so I don't expect much from them on a moral ground. If it isnt a crime then exiling them likely isnt the answer
The thing that annoys me about biscuits and the reporter, is that a lot of people ignore how evil those 2 women are.
They don't actually care about any of the women they mentioned.
We kno this, because bojack factually did not groom sarah.
Her stepdad did.
And neither of those witches are stupid. Any idiot can tell what was happening behind closed doors with that bear. Yet they, essentially let a monster walk so they could dump his crime on to the pile of still real crimes bojack committed as a massive finishing blow.
He was a catch.
Nothing more to them.
No. I'm 25, a woman and still think penny and probably her parents for the way they raised her are at fault more. He should have said no, but she pushed for it, and he only caved in a weak moment. She wouldn't stop. She ignores basic rules of consent. He even told her "you don't know what you want". If she really saw him as a fatherfigure, he would have to exploit those feelings but her dad is there and bojack showed no interest, even shock and being uncomfortable when she asked him that. She is nearly an adult and inbetween even had time to think about it as he turned her down. Being nice to someone is not grooming, only when you have intentions. Ffs I have uncles in my family that were close to me, I don't try to fuck them. She has no boundaries and then when she gets caught suddenly has a trauma. That's weird as shit. There are people who actually were groomed and molested as kids and not teenagers running after old people for no fucking reason.
13 hours ago
I completely agree, but feel like no one wants to look at how much diane benefits from POV. She is absolutely awful, and keeps intentionally hueting people around her. However bc we look through both her pov and bojacks, a lot of those awful things she does arent judged as harshly.
I high key hated her by the end. She's one of the worst people on the show. I don't even like the idea of her ending up with Guy, Guy deserves better
@ same, she does bad stuff to everyone she meets, never apologizes, and just does it all over again. We never see her break that cycle, though the show implies it. She never makes amends for it. She just goes “we are all just people, bad people dont exist” which is really convenient when you are doing the stuff she is
No it's not impossible for Penny to force herself on Bojack. Power isn't this static thing that stays consistent and someone can use the power someone has over them against them as well. Multiple people have done it before it's not this "impossible" feat. Does that mean thats what happened? Fuck no but it's not impossible
This is such a toxic take. Penny was groomed, end of the story, she had no power over him and due to her age there was no way for her to have any sense of power and force Bojack to make that decision. Very scary to see that people think that minors/victims have any power over their abusers.
@@nissie5199I think they just mean it's hypothetically physically possible. If Bojack had gotten drunk and passed out and Penny had assaulted him while he was unconscious. She would be the one in the wrong, regardless of age.
That's not what happened on the show, but it is possible for a deranged teen to have power over an adult.
Trainspotting was a good example of that. She tricked Renton and he had to keep seeing her or else she'd tell on him but even then he did manage to get away
Well yes, anyone can assault anyone. But this is not the case with Bojack and Penny soooo kinda unnecessary to bring it up.
thank you for still making bojack-videos, I wait for more of them happily