I don't think competition in the indie game space works the way that some devs think. When I'm looking for a game I'm interested in, I usually have to settle for a game still in alpha, and often can't find anything at all. Most indie games are released unpolished and half working, or fail to effectively execute the core of their game. If an Indie makes a fun game that leaves a positive impression on people, it's closer to an advertisement for the indie space at large than direct competition. I really hope that people making the same genre as me succeed, it would be a big help actually. Especially since I can see what does succeed.
I think the way I said "Other developers want you to fail" should have been worded better by me, I dont think that at all really. I speak English well but it is my second language, sometimes some things can be lost in translation. I meant it more like...if you fail, they have space to succeed (but I dont think thats true either, I guess my opinion has changed).
Having done a 'my game failed video', I'd honestly say it's really good for marketing in retrospect. It does get eyes on your game and it does get you downloads. It doesn't fix the product or turn a turd into a gem, but it does let the developer get see what having 20K+ eyes on their game is like. It helps remove a lot of the 'what if it actually got attention' doubts when it comes to marketing and makes it clearer as to why the game fundamentally failed. I would recommend any developer to do a 'My Game Failed' video but combine it with a patch 1.1 update to addresses some of the major problems you were had. It's cynical but it's probably the best marketing attempt that most 1st time indie devs are going to have.
The stuff about building a community is so important. That was a HUGE part of our development. We started making a game late last year and I started posting about it everywhere, made a discord, made devlogs and by the time our kickstarter came around we were able to get funded early in the campaign. Now the snowball we started rolling has begun rolling itself, and our community and interest continues to grow and were still really early in development. Meaning now we have playtesters that are into our game, and we have time to continue to build our marketing.
That’s great to hear. I think there is a misunderstanding generally that “marketing” just means advertising something after it’s finished. It also involves identifying who the audience is during or even before development.
I'm an animator and in the first couple years of school, my dream was to make a feature film by myself. Now, I make short films for a living and it turned out for the better. I can put all my effort into making just a few shots look awesome, then move onto the next project rather than a hundred of unimpressive sloppy shots that would bore me for years, and the viewers as well.
Just completed my 1st ever elevator pitch for my SMALL scope game. (making the game dev dossier right now) title = WIZARD SQUIRE (possible subtitle: my life running errands for a mage) PITCH : "Think about what if you were the replacement for the right-hand man of the wizard protecting timespace? Think like Tiger Wood's caddy for Gandalf or for Doctor Strange! Querrying the right spell for the situation"
A lot of wargaming and boardgame designers talk endlessly about the games going through playable prototypes for 3-5 years. When talking about developing COIN, Volko Ruhnke said things like "this concept spent 3 years in prototype to iron out the ideas," and that wasn't even the finalized form of the game, just the prototype stage. I think that is a very healthy way to design games (though it's probably because there is no monetary incentive for wargames, so why rush a product lol). I come from 2000s era hobbyist programming and modding circles, where we put in hours for free for a fraction of downloads a steam game gets, and when I've watched a lot of indie devlog stuff I sort of found the environment pretty toxic. Not in the normal sense, but more that "indie games" have been sold to people as a golden ticket since that stupid documentary was made. It feels like less an interest in making something you really want to work, and more trying to SEO hack and algorithm farm views into potential customers to wishlist your game, and all of that time is diverted from making something worth playing imo.
@@MotWhinnana totally agree with you. People just make what they want, and what they’re able to, and then expect there to be a market. The issue is related to the “advertising =\= marketing” problem that I’ve seen in the space a lot. If you’re not working to identify and satisfy an audience from day 1 of development, all the advertising in the world isn’t going to sell what you’ve made.
@@IndieGameClinic Its a distinction I've thought about for 15 years and never could particularly answer or get an answer from my artist-designer peers that satisfied me.
Thank you, thank you, for this video, Dr. Joe! It was a real eye-opener! It turns out, a game prototype isn't just a diet version of your full game - it's more like a social experiment where you find out if your mechanics are the next big thing or just a fancy way to confuse your friends. As I'm knee-deep in crafting my own prototype, I'm learning that player feedback is like caffeine for game development - essential and occasionally nerve-wracking. I'm learning it's not bad marketing that sinks indie games; it's forgetting to ask players, "Are we having fun yet?" So, here's to hoping my prototype doesn't just get a polite nod, but a resounding, "More, please!" And, what to do if it does merely get that polite nod? Well, I hope I'll know enough to tweak it, pivot it, or, in the worst case, kill it and do something that's more fun. I'm so happy I stumbled across your channel. Seriously, it's inspiring. Thank you again, and please keep 'em coming! 🙌
I like the frankness, it’s healthy to not live in a bubble. Success in indie is largely by being realistic. A game could be made in a bubble, and still succeed- but that’s incredibly rare and kind of an art piece. Gamers are largely reactive and not proactive in asking for games they want to play
17:30 DAMN, thanks for that pause lmao. Really insightful vid mate and your points on shadows in streets of rage is golden and something I've never really thought of. This topic is fascinating so I'm glad you made this.
@@dulthomas I was so happy to stumble across your channel doing research for this: I think you both had good lessons but yours was particularly insightful and amusing too
Susan Cummings, CEO of Tiny Rebel Games had given a conference about "ethical transactions in games". She was running the Doctor Who Legacy game at the time, and this was the most fan friendly micorstransaction game i ever played. You could choose what you wanted for the currency. OR you could run a cheaper gamble machine but NEVER got a double, always a character you didn't have. They were ethical!
@@Waeric Thanks. I’d love to just be able to post positive content without having to play mind games, but it just seems to be the nature of the platform at the moment.
@@IndieGameClinic I 100% respect that, Veritasium's video years ago on the algorithm makes me appreciate the "game" you're playing =) Just know some of us are around for the content not needing click-bait!
It's the same for everything really. I see music youtubers who turn themselves into educators, then have 5k on their educational videos and 400 when they post a song. If you want to entertain people with your art, you have to attract an audience which wants that, and not one which wants a tutor.
I've thought of doing an "anatomy of a failure"-kinda devlog recently, but realistically; since I haven't made anything successful, I think it would either be unuseful speculation at best and a pity party at worst. I do think the second devlog was a better presentation and I think I'll consider doing something more like "in hindsight; this is what I would of done, so I'll consider this with my next project" for a devlog... but with a less verbose title? Either way, I'm probably not doing it for a while because I've recently found out the free game I released contains a glitch in the collision code... probably going to hide my head until I sort that out, just to avoid additional embarrassment. :/ Good video. I was noticing this was a trend and trying to get my head around it. The comment from "BrannoDev" was also very illuminating. Very different way of looking at it.
This is a great observation that many channels actually target game developers based on their content, or even worse, they mix different types of content in one channel. Do you have an example of a game development channel that focuses on players without including development content? Also what do you suggest on how or what is the best platform to collect feedback to initial mechanic or hook or short gameplay ? Thanks very good channel by the way
Great video. I'm a solo developer and have been very fatigued by poor quality of information circulating. Thank you for bringing your education and experience to these topics, I value it highly. Great read recommendation for anyone also is "The Art of Game Design, a Book of Lenses," by Jesse Schell. When I was much younger, I think I sort of thought that cool games just "happen," or "grow out of an idea," or something. It's very empowering to look into the growing body of art, science, and information which reveal _how_ we can actually make great games. 👍
Thanks for your encouraging words. The Schell book is great - and it’s something I take for granted because I read it a while back. It’s hard to get people to pay attention to design theory, people are very resistant to things because they think design success is just about having good taste and replicating a set of good things. It is that, to a degree, but the larger % of their time someone spends having to learn technicals, the less time they can spend playing and analysing games, too. It’s why successful solo devs are extremely rare and it’s probably best for most people to collaborate.
I don't get how people spend hours planning recording and editing youtube videos and then in that very video say they hate marketing. What do they hate? Writing copy? Posting on reddit? Sending emails? All easier and require less personal vulnerability than youtube. Posting on reddit does suck though. They're savage over there.
This exactly. Also, if you look at a lot of the big indie successes who were solo devs or leading a small team, they all had studio jobs first. They "WENT" indie from being regular game developers. Can you imagine someone setting up a bricks and mortar business like a car mechanic or plumber without working for someone else first? There's so much you learn from being an employee (both about how to do things and how not to do things) which courses and self-tuition just can't give you.
I don't know if you've watched that video by Eastshade Studios (I believe their name is) about why marketing is not why indies fail. They have a similar sentiment about people blaming their marketing skills for their game not selling but it might be because the game isn't up to par with the quality of top sellers or even midlist sellers.
@@astoldb yes! It’s a very good video. People really think “having an idea you like and making an ok technical/artistic implementation” of it is the same thing as making something which is going to be able to sell. I think a lot of the problem lies in the fact that the people who learn design aren’t making any games; because they are non-technical and need someone else to do that part, which the people with the practical chops don’t realise their creative aspects aren’t up to scratch. This is why games are generally made in teams. Expecting every (any?) indie dev to be fantastic at everything is like a musician expecting to be the next Prince.
Scope Creep: I really appreciate your advice to make a non-procedural map for a vertical slice of a game that absolutely depends on procedural world generation. What a burden off! I haven't heard anyone else say that.
@@blarvinius ah yeah. A level is ultimately a place for your gameplay to happen, and generally speaking we know how most things in levels work even before we start. Early prototypes for games should be about testing concepts. We don’t really need to build a full level Gen algorithm to test a concept like “sometimes the room will be big and sometimes it will be small”.
Wait what is that article "Ignore him at your own peril". Did you write that just for this video? 😂 Or is that from one of your game making streams Great assesment of (part of) the youtube gamedev space. There is a lot of healthy advice in here that bears repeating over and over. Your advice will definitely help me talk about important topics such as design documents, playtesting, prototyping and vertical slices with my peers. And like always scoping, can't get enough of that scoping :')
Well, that's the problem Doc, where to get playtesters? I know they are needed but I rarely get one to test my games. And I couldn't wait too long so I had to go on with my games.
@@DarkBloodbane start with the real world and local gamer groups. Target gamers, not game devs. If you must test with other game devs then do it on a mutual aid basis.
I will say there is a lot of hostility in the indie game dev scene. If you haven't experienced it then yay for you I guess. But if people are telling you that they have experienced negativity I doubt they are making it up. I find this is especially true for those in the top 5% of a university degree or are operating at a peak above the mean. There are absolutely people that want to see you fail, both developers and potential consumers. Especially if you are working on something experimental. For reasons beyond me, the first reaction I usually see is personal offense. The old "I don't understand this therefore bad" response. Usually a few years down the track you see those same people ripping your implementation off in their own projects. Again, if this hasn't happened to you then 👏
Oh, I understand where that sentiment was coming from. But at the same time, I think the issue of inter-dev negativity only really matters if you've built up the idea that devs are the audience for your game. Devs aren't the audience for your game; they are too busy making games to play them (and that's often why their designs aren't as good as they should be).
@@IndieGameClinic Man do you ever sleep? :D Yeah fair enough. I really, really wish some of the things I have seen first hand in game dev... just weren't. There are definitely golden handshakes and an underbelly to the industry.
It’s not my area - at least not marketing specific to indie games - but it’s something I’ll cover in future. I think a lot of people want some “magic bullet” advice when really it’s just learning skills and principles and applying them. The best place for most people to start is to search/Google the difference between marketing and advertising.
For the first game, the feedback you had: lack of hit reaction, color palette, testing etc might be valid but you should've tried to see beyond the video that the dev made to see their marketing efforts. It felt to me like you're prescribing the problem of "you didn't show your game to anyone so that's why it failed" without doing the necessary due diligence. I'm unsure if this is to market your own services, but I'll assume good intent. I also would love to see if you have published your own game before?
Hi Sam. I'm not an indie developer, I'm a senior game designer working contracts at larger studios, and I've also been a studio creative lead. I make games as a hobby but my job and UA-cam take up all of my time currently. I'm not marketing anything besides wanting this channel to grow - I don't really believe in "selling courses" in the didactic" watch and copy" sense. I might sell some silly merch when I can, but my intent here is really to cut through the noise of "my game failed because [list of reasons which don't identify what's lacking about the actual game]" - because I'm a game designer and that's my expertise. I'm not going to focus on marketing when I don't think a game in question is actually ready for market [although I have worked in a marketing capacity for some quite large brands/clients]. I believe the popularity of marketing-focussed content on gamedev UA-cam is because people are more willing to accept that they are bad at marketing, than to accept that their game itself could be better. I've looked at other creative sectors like music and the same is true there. Yes, these fields are hard. Yes, marketing is hard. But often it's a copy for product which isn't up to the standard of its competition.
Cool this is great context. I'm not trying to give negative feedback for the sake of it, I have personally worked in games and tech startups for a long time and have a different take on why a game like that may not sell well. I would argue the game failed in concept before it even got to hit reactions etc. This type of game is tough to sell well on steam. Thanks for clarifying, not trying to be mean just have a different take and when I see superficial feedback it makes me want to dig deeper!
Your closing statement is only partially correct. In the end, you have to look and listen to those, who failed successfully - which means, they turned something around afterwards. Simply failing contains no evidence of learning or future success. But - being successful in the first place may be a bad teacher as well, as you often can't pin point the real reasons of that success. This is called survivor bias.
@@SunSailor when I talk about learning from successes, I’m not necessarily talking about UA-camrs. Indie studios like Klei or Inkle, who have managed to make successive successful games, are a good example of what I’m talking about. I think UA-cam is great for feeling part of a community, but the amount of people who would rather hear from someone who is good at UA-cam-ing - rather than someone who is necessarily good at making games and explaining how they made them well - is quite high.
@@IndieGameClinic Fair, but I‘m talking in general as well. Survivor bias is a thing and can lead you in very wrong directions. Look for the common example about it, warplanes from WWII. There is a good Wikipedia page about survivorship bias, you’ll see, what I mean. Even successful AAA studios are prone to not exactly know, what made a game a success. Believe me, been there…
@@SunSailor I know what survivor bias is. I also know that a lot of (majority of?) starting developers using UA-cam as a resource get all of their information from technical hobbyists and do not pay enough attention to game design experts, or even to doing their own game design analysis. They just tinker and hope that the thing they made can be magically transformed into a product at the end of the process.
To be fer I'm one of those game developer's I the difference is that I know my project is big scope at the binging and I also know I need a lot time and effort to make. For example the game I'm working now it's multiplayer PvP fps game. On that game I will have the option to play 4 player's on same computer and the option to play lan or online. On top of that I will have multiple maps weapons game mode doula wilding ECT. I know that game is big scope 😎 need a lot time and effort to make it playble, However the only way I game like this to create is for my to make that game even if needed a lot time and effort.
Right now the game is playble on local multiplayer only the don't have the networking system and many mekanics it's not implement it yet. But don't worry I will send Mail in the order to give some feedback wean I return from vecetion.
Don't worry like said right now my game don't have networking at all. The only way to play is with 2 people on the same device (split screen) one with controller 🎮 and one with keyboard ⌨️ and mouse. However even if you don't have second person to testing the game you still able to try some bugs and glitch. Either way I already have people who play testing the game for time to time event if you are not able to play I still have people who give my feedback.
I just don’t have enough money to use anything other than a webcam at the moment. I’ve tried running my iPhone through a thing to use the camera as a direct input but it’s still not much of an improvement - takes too long to setup and can’t be in airplane mode and work at the same time. Unfortunately I have a lot of debt and I’m not independently wealthy like a lot of folks on YT seem to be before even starting 😂. As soon as this starts monetising the first £500 will go on a decent cam.
@@IndieGameClinic Ah, I meant the screen capture. The camera footage is fine with me. Anyway, you could call all of it a stylistic choice and crack on. :) I'd rather you "spent" the 500 quid on your debt. Much love. And thanks again. ❤
@@IndieGameClinic You might want to check your recording resolution in OBS. I appreciate the video itself, but the low quality for the screen recording makes it harder to watch than it really should be.
Your camera and recorded footage seems to be a little out of sync. For example 6:32 - you start saying "look at spider lacking impact" while spider impact footage is only shown at 6:38, it is kinda confusing.
Yeah sorry about that - can't overwrite the video now it's up. To be able to fade myself in and out on greenscreen I have to record in a double-wide screen setup with the game one side and myself on the other side of the file - nightmare to sync sometimes! Thanks for the catch though.
@@FictitiousCtrlGames right. “The industry is over” etc etc. To an audience for whom this is largely irrelevant because they’re never going to finish their massive unoriginal unappealing game.
@@IndieGameClinic Yes! I avoid video's like that like the plague. They aren't very constructive and I have my suspicions that they were just making such a video because at the time it was a trending topic.
i have send you my game for review to day if you have any questions about the project please tell me on discord or eny other platforms that let's communicate freely because my mail it's hell in regrates off mail i have so many mails on my mail box even if sending back reply i will probably not seen that back.
![The Secret to GOOD Game Ideas 💡 [Practical Ideation Methods Explained]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LMOCQNcMleg/mqdefault.jpg)
![The Secret to GOOD Game Ideas 💡 [Practical Ideation Methods Explained]](/img/tr.png)
I don't think competition in the indie game space works the way that some devs think. When I'm looking for a game I'm interested in, I usually have to settle for a game still in alpha, and often can't find anything at all. Most indie games are released unpolished and half working, or fail to effectively execute the core of their game. If an Indie makes a fun game that leaves a positive impression on people, it's closer to an advertisement for the indie space at large than direct competition. I really hope that people making the same genre as me succeed, it would be a big help actually. Especially since I can see what does succeed.
What indies are you playing?! They release with more polish, support and creative vision than 90% of AAA. And on a regular basis as well…
I think the way I said "Other developers want you to fail" should have been worded better by me, I dont think that at all really. I speak English well but it is my second language, sometimes some things can be lost in translation.
I meant it more like...if you fail, they have space to succeed (but I dont think thats true either, I guess my opinion has changed).
Having done a 'my game failed video', I'd honestly say it's really good for marketing in retrospect. It does get eyes on your game and it does get you downloads. It doesn't fix the product or turn a turd into a gem, but it does let the developer get see what having 20K+ eyes on their game is like. It helps remove a lot of the 'what if it actually got attention' doubts when it comes to marketing and makes it clearer as to why the game fundamentally failed.
I would recommend any developer to do a 'My Game Failed' video but combine it with a patch 1.1 update to addresses some of the major problems you were had. It's cynical but it's probably the best marketing attempt that most 1st time indie devs are going to have.
@@BrannoDev fascinating insight, thanks.
PHANTOM HOURGLASS !!!!!!!!!!!! I LOVE LINEBECK
The stuff about building a community is so important. That was a HUGE part of our development. We started making a game late last year and I started posting about it everywhere, made a discord, made devlogs and by the time our kickstarter came around we were able to get funded early in the campaign. Now the snowball we started rolling has begun rolling itself, and our community and interest continues to grow and were still really early in development. Meaning now we have playtesters that are into our game, and we have time to continue to build our marketing.
That’s great to hear.
I think there is a misunderstanding generally that “marketing” just means advertising something after it’s finished. It also involves identifying who the audience is during or even before development.
I'm an animator and in the first couple years of school, my dream was to make a feature film by myself. Now, I make short films for a living and it turned out for the better. I can put all my effort into making just a few shots look awesome, then move onto the next project rather than a hundred of unimpressive sloppy shots that would bore me for years, and the viewers as well.
Just completed my 1st ever elevator pitch for my SMALL scope game. (making the game dev dossier right now)
title = WIZARD SQUIRE (possible subtitle: my life running errands for a mage) PITCH :
"Think about what if you were the replacement for the right-hand man of the wizard protecting timespace?
Think like Tiger Wood's caddy for Gandalf or for Doctor Strange!
Querrying the right spell for the situation"
A lot of wargaming and boardgame designers talk endlessly about the games going through playable prototypes for 3-5 years. When talking about developing COIN, Volko Ruhnke said things like "this concept spent 3 years in prototype to iron out the ideas," and that wasn't even the finalized form of the game, just the prototype stage. I think that is a very healthy way to design games (though it's probably because there is no monetary incentive for wargames, so why rush a product lol).
I come from 2000s era hobbyist programming and modding circles, where we put in hours for free for a fraction of downloads a steam game gets, and when I've watched a lot of indie devlog stuff I sort of found the environment pretty toxic. Not in the normal sense, but more that "indie games" have been sold to people as a golden ticket since that stupid documentary was made. It feels like less an interest in making something you really want to work, and more trying to SEO hack and algorithm farm views into potential customers to wishlist your game, and all of that time is diverted from making something worth playing imo.
@@MotWhinnana totally agree with you. People just make what they want, and what they’re able to, and then expect there to be a market.
The issue is related to the “advertising =\= marketing” problem that I’ve seen in the space a lot. If you’re not working to identify and satisfy an audience from day 1 of development, all the advertising in the world isn’t going to sell what you’ve made.
well said
Thank you for the great videos. Just the thought of you reviewing my game is quite motivating for me to finish my prototype
dude - you have forthright, clear, and honest feedback without being a dick. I love it.
@@protobeing3999 might have to put this quote on my LinkedIn! 🙏🏻
@@IndieGameClinic go ahead - I meant it
Explaining the difference between art and design in one idea is brilliant.
@@QuillColor it’s a distinction that lots of people don’t think of
@@IndieGameClinic Its a distinction I've thought about for 15 years and never could particularly answer or get an answer from my artist-designer peers that satisfied me.
Thank you, thank you, for this video, Dr. Joe!
It was a real eye-opener! It turns out, a game prototype isn't just a diet version of your full game - it's more like a social experiment where you find out if your mechanics are the next big thing or just a fancy way to confuse your friends.
As I'm knee-deep in crafting my own prototype, I'm learning that player feedback is like caffeine for game development - essential and occasionally nerve-wracking. I'm learning it's not bad marketing that sinks indie games; it's forgetting to ask players, "Are we having fun yet?"
So, here's to hoping my prototype doesn't just get a polite nod, but a resounding, "More, please!" And, what to do if it does merely get that polite nod? Well, I hope I'll know enough to tweak it, pivot it, or, in the worst case, kill it and do something that's more fun.
I'm so happy I stumbled across your channel. Seriously, it's inspiring. Thank you again, and please keep 'em coming! 🙌
@@Colin_MacLeod thank you! And the caffeine metaphor is perfect.
I like the frankness, it’s healthy to not live in a bubble. Success in indie is largely by being realistic. A game could be made in a bubble, and still succeed- but that’s incredibly rare and kind of an art piece.
Gamers are largely reactive and not proactive in asking for games they want to play
Maybe I should change my name to Doctor Frank...
17:30 DAMN, thanks for that pause lmao.
Really insightful vid mate and your points on shadows in streets of rage is golden and something I've never really thought of.
This topic is fascinating so I'm glad you made this.
@@dulthomas I was so happy to stumble across your channel doing research for this: I think you both had good lessons but yours was particularly insightful and amusing too
@@IndieGameClinic thanks man, likewise. I can tell I'll be binge watching your stuff 😁
Susan Cummings, CEO of Tiny Rebel Games had given a conference about "ethical transactions in games". She was running the Doctor Who Legacy game at the time, and this was the most fan friendly micorstransaction game i ever played. You could choose what you wanted for the currency. OR you could run a cheaper gamble machine but NEVER got a double, always a character you didn't have. They were ethical!
someone need to stop her parents from cooking ever again lmao
Also, cool info. Thanks.
Very much appreciate your closing arguments!
@@Waeric Thanks. I’d love to just be able to post positive content without having to play mind games, but it just seems to be the nature of the platform at the moment.
@@IndieGameClinic I 100% respect that, Veritasium's video years ago on the algorithm makes me appreciate the "game" you're playing =)
Just know some of us are around for the content not needing click-bait!
I like what you said about: Is your dev log for players who will play your game or for other developers who will most likely not buy your game?
It's the same for everything really. I see music youtubers who turn themselves into educators, then have 5k on their educational videos and 400 when they post a song. If you want to entertain people with your art, you have to attract an audience which wants that, and not one which wants a tutor.
I've thought of doing an "anatomy of a failure"-kinda devlog recently, but realistically; since I haven't made anything successful, I think it would either be unuseful speculation at best and a pity party at worst.
I do think the second devlog was a better presentation and I think I'll consider doing something more like "in hindsight; this is what I would of done, so I'll consider this with my next project" for a devlog... but with a less verbose title?
Either way, I'm probably not doing it for a while because I've recently found out the free game I released contains a glitch in the collision code... probably going to hide my head until I sort that out, just to avoid additional embarrassment. :/
Good video. I was noticing this was a trend and trying to get my head around it.
The comment from "BrannoDev" was also very illuminating. Very different way of looking at it.
@@kalaherty yeah I think Branno nailed it. The most effective marketing doesn’t look like marketing.
you're putting out content like mad and I'm all for it.
There will be lazier weeks; just doing it as and when I have the time.
This is a great observation that many channels actually target game developers based on their content, or even worse, they mix different types of content in one channel. Do you have an example of a game development channel that focuses on players without including development content?
Also what do you suggest on how or what is the best platform to collect feedback to initial mechanic or hook or short gameplay ?
Thanks very good channel by the way
@@whiletrue1-wb6xf can’t think of any great examples off the top of my head, but I’ll try and make sure I big them up - as and when I notice them
I've been working to understand the game development process from a gamer's perspective and found this video very helpful. Subscribed!
That's great to hear, thanks!
Great video. I'm a solo developer and have been very fatigued by poor quality of information circulating. Thank you for bringing your education and experience to these topics, I value it highly. Great read recommendation for anyone also is "The Art of Game Design, a Book of Lenses," by Jesse Schell. When I was much younger, I think I sort of thought that cool games just "happen," or "grow out of an idea," or something. It's very empowering to look into the growing body of art, science, and information which reveal _how_ we can actually make great games. 👍
Thanks for your encouraging words. The Schell book is great - and it’s something I take for granted because I read it a while back. It’s hard to get people to pay attention to design theory, people are very resistant to things because they think design success is just about having good taste and replicating a set of good things. It is that, to a degree, but the larger % of their time someone spends having to learn technicals, the less time they can spend playing and analysing games, too. It’s why successful solo devs are extremely rare and it’s probably best for most people to collaborate.
@@IndieGameClinic Thank you back and I'll keep watching!!
Valuable advice, thank you :)
Glad you found it useful, thanks!
Some great insights here, thank you!
I don't get how people spend hours planning recording and editing youtube videos and then in that very video say they hate marketing. What do they hate? Writing copy? Posting on reddit? Sending emails? All easier and require less personal vulnerability than youtube.
Posting on reddit does suck though. They're savage over there.
Likely and mostly a defensive mechanism, I presume.
This exactly.
Also, if you look at a lot of the big indie successes who were solo devs or leading a small team, they all had studio jobs first. They "WENT" indie from being regular game developers.
Can you imagine someone setting up a bricks and mortar business like a car mechanic or plumber without working for someone else first? There's so much you learn from being an employee (both about how to do things and how not to do things) which courses and self-tuition just can't give you.
I don't know if you've watched that video by Eastshade Studios (I believe their name is) about why marketing is not why indies fail. They have a similar sentiment about people blaming their marketing skills for their game not selling but it might be because the game isn't up to par with the quality of top sellers or even midlist sellers.
@@astoldb yes! It’s a very good video.
People really think “having an idea you like and making an ok technical/artistic implementation” of it is the same thing as making something which is going to be able to sell.
I think a lot of the problem lies in the fact that the people who learn design aren’t making any games; because they are non-technical and need someone else to do that part, which the people with the practical chops don’t realise their creative aspects aren’t up to scratch. This is why games are generally made in teams. Expecting every (any?) indie dev to be fantastic at everything is like a musician expecting to be the next Prince.
This is another great video
Well done
Awesome
Before even playing the video, I see the doc I just drop a like and a comment 😂❤
as always - if you like the look of the projects, do go and subscribe to and support the developers. Links in the video description. 🤝
Scope Creep: I really appreciate your advice to make a non-procedural map for a vertical slice of a game that absolutely depends on procedural world generation. What a burden off! I haven't heard anyone else say that.
@@blarvinius ah yeah. A level is ultimately a place for your gameplay to happen, and generally speaking we know how most things in levels work even before we start. Early prototypes for games should be about testing concepts. We don’t really need to build a full level Gen algorithm to test a concept like “sometimes the room will be big and sometimes it will be small”.
Great channel
Appreciated, thanks!
This great 👍. I really needed this wake up call. My beta playtest will be releasing today
Wait what is that article "Ignore him at your own peril". Did you write that just for this video? 😂 Or is that from one of your game making streams
Great assesment of (part of) the youtube gamedev space. There is a lot of healthy advice in here that bears repeating over and over. Your advice will definitely help me talk about important topics such as design documents, playtesting, prototyping and vertical slices with my peers. And like always scoping, can't get enough of that scoping :')
The article is from an ancient prophecy.
Well, that's the problem Doc, where to get playtesters? I know they are needed but I rarely get one to test my games. And I couldn't wait too long so I had to go on with my games.
@@DarkBloodbane start with the real world and local gamer groups. Target gamers, not game devs. If you must test with other game devs then do it on a mutual aid basis.
First dev problem was obviously to make a game on their own alone and never make any playtest with actual players.
It's quite common. The majority of hobby-developers need to 1. make smaller games and 2. remember the games are for people.
nice vid bro
Looking at a cubic kiliometer of Marble and seeing the human size venus sculpture inside!
Looking at a cubic kilometer of Marble and seeing Marble Madness inside
I will say there is a lot of hostility in the indie game dev scene. If you haven't experienced it then yay for you I guess. But if people are telling you that they have experienced negativity I doubt they are making it up.
I find this is especially true for those in the top 5% of a university degree or are operating at a peak above the mean. There are absolutely people that want to see you fail, both developers and potential consumers. Especially if you are working on something experimental. For reasons beyond me, the first reaction I usually see is personal offense. The old "I don't understand this therefore bad" response.
Usually a few years down the track you see those same people ripping your implementation off in their own projects. Again, if this hasn't happened to you then 👏
Oh, I understand where that sentiment was coming from. But at the same time, I think the issue of inter-dev negativity only really matters if you've built up the idea that devs are the audience for your game. Devs aren't the audience for your game; they are too busy making games to play them (and that's often why their designs aren't as good as they should be).
@@IndieGameClinic Man do you ever sleep? :D
Yeah fair enough. I really, really wish some of the things I have seen first hand in game dev... just weren't. There are definitely golden handshakes and an underbelly to the industry.
Hey, you could bring examples of good indie marketing!
It’s not my area - at least not marketing specific to indie games - but it’s something I’ll cover in future. I think a lot of people want some “magic bullet” advice when really it’s just learning skills and principles and applying them. The best place for most people to start is to search/Google the difference between marketing and advertising.
For the first game, the feedback you had: lack of hit reaction, color palette, testing etc might be valid but you should've tried to see beyond the video that the dev made to see their marketing efforts.
It felt to me like you're prescribing the problem of "you didn't show your game to anyone so that's why it failed" without doing the necessary due diligence. I'm unsure if this is to market your own services, but I'll assume good intent. I also would love to see if you have published your own game before?
Hi Sam.
I'm not an indie developer, I'm a senior game designer working contracts at larger studios, and I've also been a studio creative lead. I make games as a hobby but my job and UA-cam take up all of my time currently.
I'm not marketing anything besides wanting this channel to grow - I don't really believe in "selling courses" in the didactic" watch and copy" sense. I might sell some silly merch when I can, but my intent here is really to cut through the noise of "my game failed because [list of reasons which don't identify what's lacking about the actual game]" - because I'm a game designer and that's my expertise.
I'm not going to focus on marketing when I don't think a game in question is actually ready for market [although I have worked in a marketing capacity for some quite large brands/clients]. I believe the popularity of marketing-focussed content on gamedev UA-cam is because people are more willing to accept that they are bad at marketing, than to accept that their game itself could be better. I've looked at other creative sectors like music and the same is true there. Yes, these fields are hard. Yes, marketing is hard. But often it's a copy for product which isn't up to the standard of its competition.
@@IndieGameClinic Also to be fair to you, I didnt even really market this at all, so you wouldn't have found much.
Cool this is great context. I'm not trying to give negative feedback for the sake of it, I have personally worked in games and tech startups for a long time and have a different take on why a game like that may not sell well. I would argue the game failed in concept before it even got to hit reactions etc. This type of game is tough to sell well on steam.
Thanks for clarifying, not trying to be mean just have a different take and when I see superficial feedback it makes me want to dig deeper!
This was great
Glad you found it helpful!
Your closing statement is only partially correct. In the end, you have to look and listen to those, who failed successfully - which means, they turned something around afterwards. Simply failing contains no evidence of learning or future success. But - being successful in the first place may be a bad teacher as well, as you often can't pin point the real reasons of that success. This is called survivor bias.
@@SunSailor when I talk about learning from successes, I’m not necessarily talking about UA-camrs. Indie studios like Klei or Inkle, who have managed to make successive successful games, are a good example of what I’m talking about. I think UA-cam is great for feeling part of a community, but the amount of people who would rather hear from someone who is good at UA-cam-ing - rather than someone who is necessarily good at making games and explaining how they made them well - is quite high.
@@IndieGameClinic Fair, but I‘m talking in general as well. Survivor bias is a thing and can lead you in very wrong directions. Look for the common example about it, warplanes from WWII. There is a good Wikipedia page about survivorship bias, you’ll see, what I mean. Even successful AAA studios are prone to not exactly know, what made a game a success. Believe me, been there…
@@SunSailor I know what survivor bias is. I also know that a lot of (majority of?) starting developers using UA-cam as a resource get all of their information from technical hobbyists and do not pay enough attention to game design experts, or even to doing their own game design analysis. They just tinker and hope that the thing they made can be magically transformed into a product at the end of the process.
The urge to share survivor bias and its airplanes.
i hope someone makes a tutorial on how to a proper design document....
@@erkling5865 I’m planning one ☝🏼 I’m not sure how tutorially it’ll be though, but watch this space
closest? you were assaulted. another person might’ve driven his teeth into his lungs.
Excuse me?
To be fer I'm one of those game developer's
I the difference is that I know my project is big scope at the binging and I also know I need a lot time and effort to make.
For example the game I'm working now it's multiplayer PvP fps game.
On that game I will have the option to play 4 player's on same computer and the option to play lan or online.
On top of that I will have multiple maps weapons game mode doula wilding ECT.
I know that game is big scope 😎 need a lot time and effort to make it playble,
However the only way I game like this to create is for my to make that game even if needed a lot time and effort.
@@watercat1248 build it for 2 first!
Right now the game is playble on local multiplayer only the don't have the networking system and many mekanics it's not implement it yet.
But don't worry I will send Mail in the order to give some feedback wean I return from vecetion.
@@watercat1248 it’s the sort of thing you’ll have to test locally a lot first; it’s quite difficult for me to set up multiplayer play tests over here
Don't worry like said right now my game don't have networking at all.
The only way to play is with 2 people on the same device (split screen) one with controller 🎮 and one with keyboard ⌨️ and mouse.
However even if you don't have second person to testing the game you still able to try some bugs and glitch.
Either way I already have people who play testing the game for time to time event if you are not able to play I still have people who give my feedback.
Why not put them in the thumbnail?
What do you mean by "them"?
Yeah. Putting the reacted videos and or games upfront is more useful than just a face thumbnail. Good video, btw.
@@ultimaxkom8728 unfortunately, designing thumbnails which people will actually click on isn’t about usefulness
Do you give feedback on games using their demo too? If so would be interested in sending you info on mine.
@@OneTrue yes but only if it’s still in active development.
@@IndieGameClinic Okay great, I'll contact you in the next few days.
I’m commentator on a video of a commentator commenting on another commentator 🎉
if we keep going we can create an infinite UA-cam recursion
Great content! But I have a question why is the video so blurry/lowres? Is that some kind of joke/commentary that I'm not getting? 😅
I just don’t have enough money to use anything other than a webcam at the moment. I’ve tried running my iPhone through a thing to use the camera as a direct input but it’s still not much of an improvement - takes too long to setup and can’t be in airplane mode and work at the same time.
Unfortunately I have a lot of debt and I’m not independently wealthy like a lot of folks on YT seem to be before even starting 😂. As soon as this starts monetising the first £500 will go on a decent cam.
@@IndieGameClinic Ah, I meant the screen capture. The camera footage is fine with me. Anyway, you could call all of it a stylistic choice and crack on. :)
I'd rather you "spent" the 500 quid on your debt. Much love. And thanks again. ❤
@@pohyart I think some of it’s a bit blurrier when it’s zoomed, but some of that might be from OBS too
@@IndieGameClinic You might want to check your recording resolution in OBS. I appreciate the video itself, but the low quality for the screen recording makes it harder to watch than it really should be.
If you put the "$" at the end of the number you shouldn't be a game dev, you should be going back to 1st grade.
Your camera and recorded footage seems to be a little out of sync. For example 6:32 - you start saying "look at spider lacking impact" while spider impact footage is only shown at 6:38, it is kinda confusing.
Yeah sorry about that - can't overwrite the video now it's up. To be able to fade myself in and out on greenscreen I have to record in a double-wide screen setup with the game one side and myself on the other side of the file - nightmare to sync sometimes! Thanks for the catch though.
The worst ones are the doomer-eee videos.
@@FictitiousCtrlGames right. “The industry is over” etc etc. To an audience for whom this is largely irrelevant because they’re never going to finish their massive unoriginal unappealing game.
@@IndieGameClinic Yes! I avoid video's like that like the plague. They aren't very constructive and I have my suspicions that they were just making such a video because at the time it was a trending topic.
i have send you my game for review to day if you have any questions about the project please tell me on discord or eny other platforms that let's communicate freely because my mail
it's hell in regrates off mail i have so many mails on my mail box even if sending back reply i will probably not seen that back.
@@watercat1248 I don’t think I’m equipped to test multiplayer things at the moment, but I’ll put it in the queue and try to give it a look.
@@IndieGameClinic ok np
i already have people that try the game and give my feedback so don't worry about it.