Last year was heartbreaking. This years ending was just frustrating and stupid. When we saw Kikuchi warming up my dad and I assumed he is just getting lose because it takes him longer to get ready than a normal starter. When they made the change, I knew we were going to lose. Lost all respect for atkins and the management on this team.
I’m a Twins fan and even I couldn’t believe my ears (I was listening to the radio) when they pulled that switch. At first I thought I was missing something because I couldn’t see it, but no.
@@silmarianI wish I could say it was a good series but it really wasn’t. We were completely outmatched and u guys deserve to be in the ds. Hope u guys smack Houston. Good luck!
Such a fitting end to a shitshow of a season. The last two years have been torture for Canadians who thought a long rebuild would pay off. My level of hatred and fury for the front office and management of this franchise can not be underestimated. I’m certain that under Rogers Communications, we won’t be seeing a World Series on Canadian soil ever again. Until they sell this pain will never end. But yeah someone pour a cold one out for Berrios, no one should be more pissed than him.
@@ernesto_orozco That’s why AA left Toronto and Would up being the Braves GM thank God AA hates Toronto 😂😂 thank you Blue Jays for being a failed franchise
How can a team's power simply dry up that much over the course of a single season? The Jays were seen as a team who could mash home runs with the best of them, but this year, it felt like they were trying way too hard to just get on base. With a team possessing an absolutely abysmal baseball IQ (just look at how many boneheaded baserunning errors they committed), but with players more than capable of mashing the ball (Guerrero, Bichette, Chapman, Springer), you just have to go for the instant offense. It worked well for Atlanta this season, didn't it? Is this the famed analytics department pulling the coaching staff's strings and ordering players to hit for average rather than power?
True. This (a best of 3 series) is a situation when statistics becomes a cold indifferent specter that conveniently leaves the room when the stakes are at their highest. Stats will get you wins in the long run. We're talking about probabilities and percentages. But in the moment, stats promise nothing. It's down to pure skill against skill -- and that includes the manager!
@@danr154Last season's meltdown against Seattle broke them. They traded Gurriel & Moreno for Varsho, someone with excellent defense but a below average bat. Seems that losing Gurriel also ruined the team's mojo. The team just seemed to have a lot less fun than last year.
They didn't pull him for "one lefty." 3 of the next 4 batters were lefty which is why Toronto originally anticipated pulling Berrios at this point in the lineup. When Toronto brough in Kikuchi, the Twins brought in righty pinch hitters for lefties Kiriloff and Wallner negating the "lefty vs lefty" advantage. The Twins do this a lot and should have been expected by the Blue Jays.
5:00 - Actually, three of the next four hitters were lefties. Max Kepler, Alex Kirilloff and Matt Wallner. Kirilloff and Wallner absolutely destroy right-handed pitching, and were pinch-hit for because Kikuchi came in. This made it much easier for the Jays' righty relievers to keep the game scoreless and give the Jays offense a chance to put runs on the board for a Toronto win. Although it still would've been better to leave Berrios out there until the Twins scored a run, the move made a bit more sense than the video misleads viewers to believe. In the end, the Blue Jays not scoring any runs lost the game. Scoring 1 run in 18 innings isn't going to win a series. Blue Jays hitting strategist Dave Hudgens, who was the 2017 Astros* hitting coach, needs to seek employment elsewhere.
With all due respect man, if you’re going to put an asterisk by the Astros here, but also be a fan of either of these teams despite them having Springer and Correa respectively, you need to take a good long look in the mirror and think about your life choices.
@@Gemnist98 I'm not a fan of any of those guys. I'm just disgusted with Hudgens, who was in a position to stop what was going on, knew about what was going on, but failed to do anything about it. Instead, the situation gave a black eye to an organization with an excellent heritage going all the way back to their years as the Colt 45s, and a black eye to MLB in general. Hudgens was also caught goofing around on social media in the dugout at game time earlier in the season instead of focusing on his job, so I'm also not impressed with his professionalism and work ethic, or lack thereof.
@@BeefPapamoney doesn't solve sadness. I'm sure Berrios would have absolutely loved to continue pitching with a team advancing deeper into the postseason. Getting similar energy from this comment to "just shut up and play"
@@BeefPapa the classic "i don't see them as people anymore if they have more money than me" guy in sports discourse. there's always one in the comment sections 😂
@@BleedTheRic That's nothing like " just shut up and play", but yes players should "just shut up and play". Nobody looks to them for political opinions.
@@eodyn7 If you unironically think athletes should just "shut up and play" then you're a lousy fan that none of them would enjoy meeting. They're human beings with lives outside of being your entertainment.
Nah, everyone on the blue jays sucks, watching the WC series this year just really emphasized how unprepared they are to face any adversity. I mean, Vlad Jr getting pick off of second with a runner on third?!? I audibly guffawed watching that live with my friend.
@@fatdingo8251 he may be levels above them. he also wasted a 2021 squad with scherzer, trea turner and corey seager against an 87-win atlanta squad with no acuna. he still needs his full 162-game WS ring for his reg season success to be validated.
In 2021, Twins absolutely expected "winning in the near future." They signed Correa that offseason and led the division for most of 2022. They just knew Berrios was looking to sign a big contract and didn't feel that he was worth the money.
You know the front office's analytic logic is flawed because you can't use analytics for just one game, because if you did then you might as well have 6 lefthanded and 6 righthanded pitchers and go with a bullpen day everyday and use multiple pitchers every day because if you can't trust any pitcher to go more than 3 innings then you would burn out your pitchers before the end of the year. Most teams have a couple of good starters and a couple of good relievers who can usually get Left or Righthanded batters out on a regular basis probably for 5 innings, if your logic is no more than 3 innings for any pitcher then you are taking a huge gamble that your analytics alone will win you a game. Experienced coaching staffs including the pitching coach can see when a pitcher is on his game or struggling a little or a lot and make the appropriate changes with a balance of analytics and how the new pitcher is pitching lately meaning ( Hot or Not) For example analytics would say Romano is your 9th inning guy which I would normally agree, but over the last 3 or 4 weeks he's given up hits, runs, and blown saves and has basically sucked. Normally I would say give him a pass but that's where the Manager or pitching coach would make an educated guess that someone else who is pitching great lately might be a better option especially in a playoff game, a hard decision to make but to me if you go by analytics alone and he blows the game you would probably be second guessing yourself after the loss of such an important game. So to sum it all up Let the manager manage and let the math nerds do their thing and between the both of them come up with a game plan thats a guide and not written in stone. You can't tell me that Kikuchi was a better option in such an important game when your starter has gone 3 innings with 5 strikeouts and no runs. You have to live and die with what got you to the playoffs.
I always hate that onel road to the show, I'd give up a hit in the 7th or 8th and the manager would pull me with the runner still on base and I'd end up with that earned run. Really frustrating.
This is also why I look more at WHIP than ERA on relievers. The reliever allowing those runners to score hurts the previous pitcher's ERA, but not his own.
Selfies in the dugout, dancing like little kids on the bases, being best friends with the opposing team, hugging all the time. Over the top celebrations when they didn't accomplish anything yet, baseball, just like the NBA, is being ruined by the new generation
Berrios aint letting that happen to him again. If the manager comes out with his pitch count low, he’s gonna have to fight the manager to take him out.
been a Blue Jays fan since 1985 and the 2023 team was by far the most boring. Ross Atkins let Manoah/Vladdy and Kirk into camp out of shape. They let them talk shit about other teams & players making them look immature. Analytics was rammed up the players & coaches. Fire Ross Atkins and the rest will follow except Pete Walker. 2023 was immature and sucked
Vlad Jr said he’d never be a Yankee and I’m starting to wonder if part of that is because he wants to be above criticism, accountability, and expectations.
come on gang, we're better than this. Let's get em next year. Chilllllll, we sucked in general. talking pitching and management? Listen, obviously we have Don Mattingly for a reason, that reason is that he will be the manager next year. That aside, pitching was fine. Even if they left Jose in, so what. We literally scored no runs. We literally scored one run in two games. You still need to score a run to win a game. No game has ever ended with a 0, and that team winning. You're getting picked off at second and again, are 1-10000000 with RISP. Nothing else matters. And now you have to watch Arizona, and a catcher who's going to be the best in baseball for years to come, play in the playoffs his first year, with the other one we traded there, and the other two we trade to Texas. Seriously man
I'm not a fan of John Schneider, but before you blame him you have to know the Jays organization. They hired back to back rookie managers to be expendable order takers. I doubt Schneider wanted to pull Berrios but he wasn't going to veto upper management's decisions.
The fact that so many chuds dont understand is depressing. It wasnt Schneiders choice to do that. its the analytics department, that have never played a sport in their life.
@@trevoravery9270thats the exact time to actual manage a team and say to his pitcher not even 50 pitches in to cook. Nah, he’s got a hand up his ass, a puppet.
Dumbest move in the history of postseason baseball. Anyone involved in the decision to remove Jose Berrios after 47 electric pitches in Game 2 of the Jays/Twins series should be fired. Finally, after all the idiots that entered into the decision to remove Jose Berrios from Game 2 have been fired and banned from baseball , in the best interest of the sport, MLB should force the Jays to move to Montreal. Stupidity HAS to have consequences equal to that of the stupidity.
While I agree removing Berrios what absolutely stupid, it’s not the dumbest move in playoff history. Kevin Cash removing Blake Snell and losing the 2020 World Series is the worst move I’ve ever seen. Yeah I know, you were just making a point but as a Hays fan I have to take my frustrations out somewhere lol
Whose to blame? Def not analytics. Analytics can tell you that IN A WIDER SPREADSHEET, what the blue jays did was actually correct. What is stupid is to do it in a situation where it’s a one game elimination, where your sp has not had issues on the mound, where your lead is relatively small, where it’s early in the game, and you bring in a pitcher who has been one of your worst starting pitchers. This is an embarrassing moment for the blue jays, for analytics gurus who actually study the games, for the manger who I would absolutely Fire right now. The blue jays have not success in the postseason despite their core. And now? I suspect much of how they train their players is incorrect because of how badly they managed this situation. The video is correct, Jose has been humiliated by the rays, they have played down to everything they are supposed to be.
At first i thought Jose got taken out cause he got injured or something but now we know Blue Jays just were dumb didn't show up in the playoffs and that's it
Has it been long enough to where we can say vlad jr is kind of a tool? Just a feeling but he comes off as the type of player that acts like all he has to do is show up to be great.
The jays hitting did show up. They outhit the twins in both games, worked counts, and had good at bats. They just couldn’t cash in the runners, which was a problem throughout the regular season for the jays. It felt like every inning we had a runner in scoring position, but the timely hit continues to elude us. I’m interested to see what we do next year
He probably felt like Snell after Cash pulled him and I wonder if part of his trade to the padres was because he wanted it. If so, Berrios should be traded to a team with a manager that has a longer leash
I remember when Charlie Montoyo told Matt Shoemaker he was done after throwing a no-hitter after 3 innings in a similar situation. Matt Shoemaker was pissed and he wasnt afraid to show it. It was his contract year, and he didnt come back to the team (and did terrible afterwards).
It's the playoffs! Your starters are supposed to step up and be the superstars of the pitching staff! Ride their wheels until they fall off. Give them a shot at going 7+ innings or even a complete game!
Kikuchi was in the bullpen bent to the ground breathing into his mitt in visible dread of the situation, Schneider standing at the top of the dugout had the look of a married man on the steps of a whorehouse about to do something regrettable, the announcer Buck Martinez was saying “I wouldn’t take Berrios out here, why would you do that?” on live tv… then they proceeded to make the most predictably bad call in living memory. Brutal. If the same people are calling the shots next year I’ll be watching zero blue jays games
"The front office" is a term that people use and often is taken negatively. Why should the GM be telling the manager what to do? Every team, and I mean every team. has a philosophy. It is discussed by the teams braintrust, which consists of the GM and his staff, along with the manager and his coaches. It takes input from analytics, scouts, and the minor league system. It is an evolving philosophy that is always subject to analysis and change. Once it is agreed on, it becomes the rudder to all on field decisions. When the manager makes a decision like this, it is influenced by this philosophy and he has as much freedom as the system gives him. When it works, no one really notices. But when it doesn't, all hell can break loose from those watching. Sometimes it appears they should have ignored it. But if you do that and then it doesn't work, you have trouble. We are not privy to the conversation. In this case I didn't see the game, but was surprised when I saw the boxscore. But I'm generally more forgiving than most.
This is one of the best definitions of a heartbreak moment in the MLB. But Berrios took this in stride in the way he confronted the team around him. Still, I KNOW it had to hurt. We had a guy who was overzealous and advanced to third on a short hop to the outfield into the game tying run. He was tagged at home. The next hitter singled but the following batter flied out to end a game that sends the winner to championship
I feel for the guy. Pitching probably his best game all year (and undoubtedly the most important) only for him to get pulled early and for the offense to let everyone down. This offense this season was absolutely woeful. I don't know where they start, is it the approach? Overall hitting philosophy? Something is terribly off in that clubhouse for the entire offense to be as bad as they were this season. I don't know if that's down to coaching and hitting coach Guillermo maybe? But something is off. That pitching staff was good enough to win a World Series this year. And it's shameful how bad the offense has been.
When have these analytics ever actually worked? Teams that live and die by it like the Rays fail in the postseason every year. It's always better to pay for talent than cheap out and put formula players on the field.
Schneider seems to have no sense when managing the bullpen, and overall, I've really wondered what has been going on with the coaching of this team. You have people like Varsho who started the season with record bunts... Then he completely stops bunting? You got Bichette, Vladdy, and even Kirk who were so hot at bat last year, and now their swings stink? Albeit I saw improvement in Bo pulling back on swinging at garbage, but then he was asleep on the field! Then we had Schneider leaving in every single pitcher for over 100 swings early in the season; for what? Have the coaches been so technically focused that they've diminished some of our boys' pure talent? Kikuchi didn't impress me much this year either despite him seemingly switching souls with Manoah; it feels like outfield just played more defensively for him to appear better. And don't even get me started on the drama this team faced this year. Kiermaier's baby blues couldn't even save this season, nor could Babe Schneider's amazing early start. Such a shame.
As a Twins fan that was at the game, Blue Jays fans are making excuses. The Twins are one of the worst teams against lefties and teams have been making those kinds of moves against them all season, they came through plain and simple. Also the Blue Jays didn't score any fucking runs. how tf can you blame Kikuchi pitching when you lost 2-0
Man I feel bad for you Canada, what a crappy way to go out. And its not like the Jays weren't hitting - I think they actually got more hits than the Twins? - just couldn't quite bring anyone home. Piss poor decision taking Berrios out. Gonna be a long winter.
OMG….As I was watching the game with my friend I was saying to him that Bichette was being selfish with those swings, that at bat where Vladdy got picked off. There was no reason to swing that hard and it’s rare you have success. He thought I was crazy. All Bo had to do was find some green and at least 1 run would score with probably a runner moving to 3rd. He did not have to swing for the moon.
This Blue Jays core continues to shit their pants in the playoffs despite MLB trying to push the narrative that they’re the next big thing. 0-6 in wild card series games since 2020. They don’t have what it takes.
Honestly at least he can feel good he had a great season and redeemed himself even though the org failed him in the end, wish him and his family the best.
Schneider heavily implied there were other factors such as numbers and opinions in the decision. Atkins washes his hands of it and said it was Schneiders decision alone. Atkins spent all press conference not accepting any responsibility, even going so far as to say their grand plan and strategy was effective. It is pretty clear where the problems lay in this organization and it is these two (Shapiro and Atkins) clowns from the Cleveland Indians org. I hope to see Alex Anthopoulos back one day. Glad to see he won a WS with Atlanta but his time here made me proud to buy tickets to see games. With these two clowns, not so much.
The blue jays were struggling massively on offense for weeks going into the playoffs so it wasn’t a surprise to anyone following them they exited early.
As a blue jays fan, that was the stupidest thing I’ve ever seen. I want Schneider and Atkins fired. Anyone saying Schneider was just a puppet and didn’t actually have a say is high. All Schneider had to do was stand still. No one forced him to walk out there. He’s done this 2 years in a row and I’m not going thru another one with his incompetent a$$. Dude can’t make a single decision for himself he’s been doing this ever since he became manager. That was the worst blue jay postseason game they’ve ever played
The Blue Jays have AMAZING players; problem are 100% their manager and coaches. John Schneider has no business managing a major league team, not only did he pulled Berrios too soon, but he burned every single bullpen arm available. And I don't know who needs to hear this.....but no, the Blue Jays' FO had nothing to do with that, do you really think there was a direct line between Rogers Center and the Visitors dugout at the Twins stadium? GTFOH. That move where Vladdy was picked up was just idiotic when we all know he is one of the least athletic in that team (along side Kirk), coaches should've known better. Not to mention they couldn't fixed his batting problem the whole season. Oh and let's not talk about Manoah's mess. If they don't revamp their whole staff, they'll become the "cheaper version of the Padres"
Yeah rays pulling Snell was the dumbest shit you could of ever done and idk why coaches don’t let a pitch just ride it out especially berrios situation like dude hadn’t given up a run yet I’m starting to think these managers betting on the side took pitching outs under 😂 cause there’s no other explanation for this bs
Three of the next four hitters were lefties. The move forced the Twins to take two dangerous lefty bats out of the lineup so that they wouldn't destroy the righty relievers who would be coming into the game. The Twins were held scoreless after the inning of the switch, so that part of the plan worked. The Jays pitching staff only gave up two runs the entire game. I'd expect a win when a pitching staff does that.
Three things need to happen in the off season: Mattingly needs to replace Schneider, hitting coach needs to be given his walking papers, and the Jays need to get someone RELIABLE in the cleanup spot. The bad baseball IQ on display this entire season was mind numbingly frustrating. And its not even the players! It's all in the dugout and in the front office. The wildcard games were just a microcosm of what the team has been dealing with all year. Given how weak the Yankees and Sox were this season, this could've been the Jays' year.
John Schneider failed him. Not the fans or the players. I was surprised that he was pulled after 3 innings. John Schneider has a trust issues with his pitcher. I loved the pitching staff and what Pete Walker did for the Starting picture. Jose you are a hero!
WOW! A trust issue with Berrios? Quick, google up Berrios' numbers for 2023, and what do you see? A 29 year old, sub .500 pitcher (11-12) with a 3.65 ERA (lifetime 4.15). If all Jays pitchers had his record, then Jays wouldn't be in the post season. How much trust would Schneider have with a record like that, and with Jose going much beyond 3 innings?
has the desk jockeys in the analytics department ever play one game of baseball?? Fire them, fire Atkins & Schneider! Analytics are good to get info but can't rely on it or die by it.
How does Berrios ever trust this team again? 'Even if I do my job, i can't rely on this team to have my back'. FIRE ROSS ATKINS & JOHN SCHNEIDER. If they remain in place next April, I have watched my last Blew Jays game.
Baseball is finished. I grew up a die hard baseball fan from about 1993 to 2016. Haven’t watched even a half inning since. The nerds won. Baseball fans lost.
Last year was heartbreaking. This years ending was just frustrating and stupid. When we saw Kikuchi warming up my dad and I assumed he is just getting lose because it takes him longer to get ready than a normal starter. When they made the change, I knew we were going to lose. Lost all respect for atkins and the management on this team.
I lost respect when they forgot how to swing at the baseball.
I think every fan was thinking “wait they aren’t going to pull him are they?” And when it happened millions of voices started screaming at their tv’s.
Dude, it's been so stuuuuupid. Managerial decisions: stupid. Baserunning: stupid. Hitting: can't.
I feel so bad for our pitchers.
I’m a Twins fan and even I couldn’t believe my ears (I was listening to the radio) when they pulled that switch. At first I thought I was missing something because I couldn’t see it, but no.
@@silmarianI wish I could say it was a good series but it really wasn’t. We were completely outmatched and u guys deserve to be in the ds. Hope u guys smack Houston. Good luck!
Such a fitting end to a shitshow of a season. The last two years have been torture for Canadians who thought a long rebuild would pay off. My level of hatred and fury for the front office and management of this franchise can not be underestimated.
I’m certain that under Rogers Communications, we won’t be seeing a World Series on Canadian soil ever again. Until they sell this pain will never end.
But yeah someone pour a cold one out for Berrios, no one should be more pissed than him.
Hey you’re here, love your posts
@@ernesto_orozco That’s why AA left Toronto and Would up being the Braves GM thank God AA hates Toronto 😂😂 thank you Blue Jays for being a failed franchise
I wouldn’t blame rogers … they will spend … the issue here lies in management
They played the Twins. They had no shot.
@@ernesto_orozco Sup my dude. Yeah I'm a long suffering Jays fan. Sucks but what are you gonna do?😅
The blue jays just failed in general
How can a team's power simply dry up that much over the course of a single season? The Jays were seen as a team who could mash home runs with the best of them, but this year, it felt like they were trying way too hard to just get on base. With a team possessing an absolutely abysmal baseball IQ (just look at how many boneheaded baserunning errors they committed), but with players more than capable of mashing the ball (Guerrero, Bichette, Chapman, Springer), you just have to go for the instant offense. It worked well for Atlanta this season, didn't it? Is this the famed analytics department pulling the coaching staff's strings and ordering players to hit for average rather than power?
Mashing potatoes instead of mashing baseballs. Kirk, Vladdy, Menoah? How bad do you want to win when you're morbidly obese?
That’s what piss-poor management and coaching does to a team.
True. This (a best of 3 series) is a situation when statistics becomes a cold indifferent specter that conveniently leaves the room when the stakes are at their highest. Stats will get you wins in the long run. We're talking about probabilities and percentages. But in the moment, stats promise nothing. It's down to pure skill against skill -- and that includes the manager!
The Varsho trade was a disaster. They miss Gurriel baaadly.
@@danr154Last season's meltdown against Seattle broke them. They traded Gurriel & Moreno for Varsho, someone with excellent defense but a below average bat. Seems that losing Gurriel also ruined the team's mojo. The team just seemed to have a lot less fun than last year.
They didn't pull him for "one lefty." 3 of the next 4 batters were lefty which is why Toronto originally anticipated pulling Berrios at this point in the lineup. When Toronto brough in Kikuchi, the Twins brought in righty pinch hitters for lefties Kiriloff and Wallner negating the "lefty vs lefty" advantage. The Twins do this a lot and should have been expected by the Blue Jays.
5:00 - Actually, three of the next four hitters were lefties. Max Kepler, Alex Kirilloff and Matt Wallner. Kirilloff and Wallner absolutely destroy right-handed pitching, and were pinch-hit for because Kikuchi came in. This made it much easier for the Jays' righty relievers to keep the game scoreless and give the Jays offense a chance to put runs on the board for a Toronto win.
Although it still would've been better to leave Berrios out there until the Twins scored a run, the move made a bit more sense than the video misleads viewers to believe.
In the end, the Blue Jays not scoring any runs lost the game. Scoring 1 run in 18 innings isn't going to win a series. Blue Jays hitting strategist Dave Hudgens, who was the 2017 Astros* hitting coach, needs to seek employment elsewhere.
With all due respect man, if you’re going to put an asterisk by the Astros here, but also be a fan of either of these teams despite them having Springer and Correa respectively, you need to take a good long look in the mirror and think about your life choices.
@@Gemnist98 I'm not a fan of any of those guys. I'm just disgusted with Hudgens, who was in a position to stop what was going on, knew about what was going on, but failed to do anything about it. Instead, the situation gave a black eye to an organization with an excellent heritage going all the way back to their years as the Colt 45s, and a black eye to MLB in general.
Hudgens was also caught goofing around on social media in the dugout at game time earlier in the season instead of focusing on his job, so I'm also not impressed with his professionalism and work ethic, or lack thereof.
the pitching change didn't even matter 1 run across the two most important games of they year, pathetic
Gotta be painful for him Watching his former team advance and celebrate against him
Yeah, he's wiping away those tears with hundred dollar bills.
@@BeefPapamoney doesn't solve sadness. I'm sure Berrios would have absolutely loved to continue pitching with a team advancing deeper into the postseason. Getting similar energy from this comment to "just shut up and play"
@@BeefPapa the classic "i don't see them as people anymore if they have more money than me" guy in sports discourse. there's always one in the comment sections 😂
@@BleedTheRic That's nothing like " just shut up and play", but yes players should "just shut up and play". Nobody looks to them for political opinions.
@@eodyn7 If you unironically think athletes should just "shut up and play" then you're a lousy fan that none of them would enjoy meeting. They're human beings with lives outside of being your entertainment.
The hitting was inconsistent all year. One of the more frustrating Blue Jays teams to watch
There were two lefties coming up, Kepler and Kiriloff, Salono came in for Kiriloff
Wallner also.
Nah, everyone on the blue jays sucks, watching the WC series this year just really emphasized how unprepared they are to face any adversity. I mean, Vlad Jr getting pick off of second with a runner on third?!? I audibly guffawed watching that live with my friend.
Bichette is a beast. I’d love him on my team
@@bigpictureguys8415 bozo Bichette? Psssh he is somehow a worse fielder than his dad
Fire Schneider and Atkins.
The Jays deserved better than incompetence from the management team
kevin cash and dave roberts approved of john schneider yesterday.
Dave roberts took a team with a bunch of rookies and a beat up rotation to 100 wins. He’s levels above them
@@fatdingo8251 he may be levels above them. he also wasted a 2021 squad with scherzer, trea turner and corey seager against an 87-win atlanta squad with no acuna. he still needs his full 162-game WS ring for his reg season success to be validated.
As a Yankee fan not invested in an October this year I’m glad the twins got to exercise some of the demons. They’re a fun team to watch.
I thank you from Minnesota
As a Jays fan I agree. They deserved it much more than the Jays after this season.
i think what you're trying to say is exorcise*
@@xaevius5319 They were taking their demons for a walk on leashes. :)
Those demons going to the gym?
Sick of the analytics
As a jays fan I feel so bad for Jose and this entire pitching staff the just wasted
In 2021, Twins absolutely expected "winning in the near future." They signed Correa that offseason and led the division for most of 2022. They just knew Berrios was looking to sign a big contract and didn't feel that he was worth the money.
Cost them the series? The hitting cost them the whole year. Completely atrocious!
You know the front office's analytic logic is flawed because you can't use analytics for just one game, because if you did then you might as well have 6 lefthanded and 6 righthanded pitchers and go with a bullpen day everyday and use multiple pitchers every day because if you can't trust any pitcher to go more than 3 innings then you would burn out your pitchers before the end of the year. Most teams have a couple of good starters and a couple of good relievers who can usually get Left or Righthanded batters out on a regular basis probably for 5 innings, if your logic is no more than 3 innings for any pitcher then you are taking a huge gamble that your analytics alone will win you a game. Experienced coaching staffs including the pitching coach can see when a pitcher is on his game or struggling a little or a lot and make the appropriate changes with a balance of analytics and how the new pitcher is pitching lately meaning ( Hot or Not) For example analytics would say Romano is your 9th inning guy which I would normally agree, but over the last 3 or 4 weeks he's given up hits, runs, and blown saves and has basically sucked. Normally I would say give him a pass but that's where the Manager or pitching coach would make an educated guess that someone else who is pitching great lately might be a better option especially in a playoff game, a hard decision to make but to me if you go by analytics alone and he blows the game you would probably be second guessing yourself after the loss of such an important game. So to sum it all up Let the manager manage and let the math nerds do their thing and between the both of them come up with a game plan thats a guide and not written in stone. You can't tell me that Kikuchi was a better option in such an important game when your starter has gone 3 innings with 5 strikeouts and no runs. You have to live and die with what got you to the playoffs.
Blue Jay's Failed their fans too. I would t pay for a ticket until they get ross Atkins out of the operation.
And he was saddled with the loss even though the reliever gave up the runs. Cruel.
I always hate that onel road to the show, I'd give up a hit in the 7th or 8th and the manager would pull me with the runner still on base and I'd end up with that earned run. Really frustrating.
@@mtoy42twin Not even that but you could pitch 8 perfect innings, give up a walk and then take the loss because it ends 0-1!
It's a glitch that pitching stats have always had. It gives more weight to what they call "quality starts".
This is also why I look more at WHIP than ERA on relievers. The reliever allowing those runners to score hurts the previous pitcher's ERA, but not his own.
@@Dulcimerist, OPS against is even more revealing.
As a Jays fan, I will not be watching another jays game ever again if John Schneider and Ross Atkins remain at the helm.
Many others won't either.
They DID NOT make any decisions, the analytics department did. You are BEYOND out of touch how modern baseball is "plated".
@PatrickS.Tomlinsonno one asked you
@@trevoravery9270no one asked you either
@@Golfman489no one asked you either
Selfies in the dugout, dancing like little kids on the bases, being best friends with the opposing team, hugging all the time. Over the top celebrations when they didn't accomplish anything yet, baseball, just like the NBA, is being ruined by the new generation
That move was down right disrespectful
Berrios aint letting that happen to him again. If the manager comes out with his pitch count low, he’s gonna have to fight the manager to take him out.
been a Blue Jays fan since 1985 and the 2023 team was by far the most boring. Ross Atkins let Manoah/Vladdy and Kirk into camp out of shape. They let them talk shit about other teams & players making them look immature. Analytics was rammed up the players & coaches. Fire Ross Atkins and the rest will follow except Pete Walker. 2023 was immature and sucked
Vlad Jr said he’d never be a Yankee and I’m starting to wonder if part of that is because he wants to be above criticism, accountability, and expectations.
the two people that deserve the most blame are schnider for that brutal move and vladdy for taking a nap at second and ate dogshit at the plate.
come on gang, we're better than this. Let's get em next year. Chilllllll, we sucked in general. talking pitching and management? Listen, obviously we have Don Mattingly for a reason, that reason is that he will be the manager next year. That aside, pitching was fine. Even if they left Jose in, so what. We literally scored no runs. We literally scored one run in two games. You still need to score a run to win a game. No game has ever ended with a 0, and that team winning. You're getting picked off at second and again, are 1-10000000 with RISP. Nothing else matters. And now you have to watch Arizona, and a catcher who's going to be the best in baseball for years to come, play in the playoffs his first year, with the other one we traded there, and the other two we trade to Texas. Seriously man
I'm not a fan of John Schneider, but before you blame him you have to know the Jays organization. They hired back to back rookie managers to be expendable order takers. I doubt Schneider wanted to pull Berrios but he wasn't going to veto upper management's decisions.
The fact that so many chuds dont understand is depressing. It wasnt Schneiders choice to do that. its the analytics department, that have never played a sport in their life.
@@trevoravery9270 That's what bothers me most, nerds who think they know more about sports than actual jocks
Schneider really overthink things like that coach from the chargers that ended up costing his team wins
"Moneyball" really went to some heads.
@@trevoravery9270thats the exact time to actual manage a team and say to his pitcher not even 50 pitches in to cook.
Nah, he’s got a hand up his ass, a puppet.
Shapiro, Atkins, and Schneider gotta go
Can’t win games when you score 0 runs
Dumbest move in the history of postseason baseball. Anyone involved in the decision to remove Jose Berrios after 47 electric pitches in Game 2 of the Jays/Twins series should be fired. Finally, after all the idiots that entered into the decision to remove Jose Berrios from Game 2 have been fired and banned from baseball , in the best interest of the sport, MLB should force the Jays to move to Montreal. Stupidity HAS to have consequences equal to that of the stupidity.
While I agree removing Berrios what absolutely stupid, it’s not the dumbest move in playoff history. Kevin Cash removing Blake Snell and losing the 2020 World Series is the worst move I’ve ever seen.
Yeah I know, you were just making a point but as a Hays fan I have to take my frustrations out somewhere lol
If I were Berríos, I would request a trade.
Yeah they could trade him for some offence
Over use of analytics is killing baseball
Whose to blame? Def not analytics. Analytics can tell you that IN A WIDER SPREADSHEET, what the blue jays did was actually correct. What is stupid is to do it in a situation where it’s a one game elimination, where your sp has not had issues on the mound, where your lead is relatively small, where it’s early in the game, and you bring in a pitcher who has been one of your worst starting pitchers.
This is an embarrassing moment for the blue jays, for analytics gurus who actually study the games, for the manger who I would absolutely Fire right now.
The blue jays have not success in the postseason despite their core. And now? I suspect much of how they train their players is incorrect because of how badly they managed this situation.
The video is correct, Jose has been humiliated by the rays, they have played down to everything they are supposed to be.
I greatly miss having Berrios in Minnesota. I wish we could be moving on in the playoffs with him on the Twins.
Schneider needs to be fired
I would demand a trade
At first i thought Jose got taken out cause he got injured or something but now we know Blue Jays just were dumb didn't show up in the playoffs and that's it
I always found his stuff to be filthy well above average. Just needed some adjustments and confidence.
AL wins leader (2023) is Jose Berrios 16 wins three-year, $63 million contract with the Toronto Blue Jays
Vladdy's quote still sticks with me, I'm still waiting on the movie to start bruh. Only previews so far.
Yeah this has been the longest pre movie trailer showing I've ever seen
Has it been long enough to where we can say vlad jr is kind of a tool? Just a feeling but he comes off as the type of player that acts like all he has to do is show up to be great.
The jays hitting did show up. They outhit the twins in both games, worked counts, and had good at bats. They just couldn’t cash in the runners, which was a problem throughout the regular season for the jays. It felt like every inning we had a runner in scoring position, but the timely hit continues to elude us. I’m interested to see what we do next year
well part of hitting is scoring the runs lmao
@@chrisstevens4912 true
He probably felt like Snell after Cash pulled him and I wonder if part of his trade to the padres was because he wanted it. If so, Berrios should be traded to a team with a manager that has a longer leash
I remember when Charlie Montoyo told Matt Shoemaker he was done after throwing a no-hitter after 3 innings in a similar situation. Matt Shoemaker was pissed and he wasnt afraid to show it. It was his contract year, and he didnt come back to the team (and did terrible afterwards).
It's the playoffs! Your starters are supposed to step up and be the superstars of the pitching staff! Ride their wheels until they fall off. Give them a shot at going 7+ innings or even a complete game!
47 pitches, no runs , 5 k's and they pulled him. Makes no damn sense
Dude their offense scored 1 run in 18 Innings and everyone's talking about a pitching change mistake? Lol what?
Both things can be bad at the same time.
I tell ya
Why even have starters
i get the lefty lefty thing if its like the 7th inning or later in a close game but in the 4th inning in a scoreless game? very strange..
Kikuchi was in the bullpen bent to the ground breathing into his mitt in visible dread of the situation, Schneider standing at the top of the dugout had the look of a married man on the steps of a whorehouse about to do something regrettable, the announcer Buck Martinez was saying “I wouldn’t take Berrios out here, why would you do that?” on live tv… then they proceeded to make the most predictably bad call in living memory. Brutal. If the same people are calling the shots next year I’ll be watching zero blue jays games
"The front office" is a term that people use and often is taken negatively. Why should the GM be telling the manager what to do? Every team, and I mean every team. has a philosophy. It is discussed by the teams braintrust, which consists of the GM and his staff, along with the manager and his coaches. It takes input from analytics, scouts, and the minor league system. It is an evolving philosophy that is always subject to analysis and change. Once it is agreed on, it becomes the rudder to all on field decisions. When the manager makes a decision like this, it is influenced by this philosophy and he has as much freedom as the system gives him.
When it works, no one really notices. But when it doesn't, all hell can break loose from those watching. Sometimes it appears they should have ignored it. But if you do that and then it doesn't work, you have trouble. We are not privy to the conversation. In this case I didn't see the game, but was surprised when I saw the boxscore. But I'm generally more forgiving than most.
Hefty price. 😂
That’s funny. It was a steal looking back. Berrios is the only one in that trade that will be a MLBer.
This is one of the best definitions of a heartbreak moment in the MLB. But Berrios took this in stride in the way he confronted the team around him. Still, I KNOW it had to hurt. We had a guy who was overzealous and advanced to third on a short hop to the outfield into the game tying run. He was tagged at home. The next hitter singled but the following batter flied out to end a game that sends the winner to championship
Twins were winning the game either way that crowd would have carried them through anything
I feel for the guy. Pitching probably his best game all year (and undoubtedly the most important) only for him to get pulled early and for the offense to let everyone down. This offense this season was absolutely woeful. I don't know where they start, is it the approach? Overall hitting philosophy? Something is terribly off in that clubhouse for the entire offense to be as bad as they were this season. I don't know if that's down to coaching and hitting coach Guillermo maybe? But something is off. That pitching staff was good enough to win a World Series this year. And it's shameful how bad the offense has been.
When have these analytics ever actually worked? Teams that live and die by it like the Rays fail in the postseason every year. It's always better to pay for talent than cheap out and put formula players on the field.
Schneider seems to have no sense when managing the bullpen, and overall, I've really wondered what has been going on with the coaching of this team. You have people like Varsho who started the season with record bunts... Then he completely stops bunting? You got Bichette, Vladdy, and even Kirk who were so hot at bat last year, and now their swings stink? Albeit I saw improvement in Bo pulling back on swinging at garbage, but then he was asleep on the field! Then we had Schneider leaving in every single pitcher for over 100 swings early in the season; for what? Have the coaches been so technically focused that they've diminished some of our boys' pure talent? Kikuchi didn't impress me much this year either despite him seemingly switching souls with Manoah; it feels like outfield just played more defensively for him to appear better. And don't even get me started on the drama this team faced this year. Kiermaier's baby blues couldn't even save this season, nor could Babe Schneider's amazing early start. Such a shame.
The game is too analytical
As a Twins fan that was at the game, Blue Jays fans are making excuses. The Twins are one of the worst teams against lefties and teams have been making those kinds of moves against them all season, they came through plain and simple. Also the Blue Jays didn't score any fucking runs. how tf can you blame Kikuchi pitching when you lost 2-0
yep id be asking for a trade
Man I feel bad for you Canada, what a crappy way to go out. And its not like the Jays weren't hitting - I think they actually got more hits than the Twins? - just couldn't quite bring anyone home. Piss poor decision taking Berrios out. Gonna be a long winter.
Champman sucks, Vladdy sucks, Bichette is selfish and they are all going to want big contracts
OMG….As I was watching the game with my friend I was saying to him that Bichette was being selfish with those swings, that at bat where Vladdy got picked off. There was no reason to swing that hard and it’s rare you have success. He thought I was crazy. All Bo had to do was find some green and at least 1 run would score with probably a runner moving to 3rd. He did not have to swing for the moon.
Personally I think they having the jacket was helping and no time clock. Seee how well we hit with hernandez or gurriel back things would change
This Blue Jays core continues to shit their pants in the playoffs despite MLB trying to push the narrative that they’re the next big thing. 0-6 in wild card series games since 2020. They don’t have what it takes.
Only 50 pitches? What kind of thinking is that? That manager single handedly destroyed any chance for the Jays.
Big brain move knowing the offence won't score at all, let Kikuchi pitch for some extra Japanese viewership
However bad that move was our dead offence is to blame for these losses.
I loved Jose while he was in Minnesota and, as much as I wanted the Twins to win, I felt really bad the Jays did him like that.
Honestly at least he can feel good he had a great season and redeemed himself even though the org failed him in the end, wish him and his family the best.
I 100% agree with iTalk Studios, The blue jays failed Berrios.
Schneider heavily implied there were other factors such as numbers and opinions in the decision. Atkins washes his hands of it and said it was Schneiders decision alone. Atkins spent all press conference not accepting any responsibility, even going so far as to say their grand plan and strategy was effective. It is pretty clear where the problems lay in this organization and it is these two (Shapiro and Atkins) clowns from the Cleveland Indians org. I hope to see Alex Anthopoulos back one day. Glad to see he won a WS with Atlanta but his time here made me proud to buy tickets to see games. With these two clowns, not so much.
Hey at least it’s nice to see him recover
Lotsa MLB managers are Mr. Burns managerial experts.
The blue jays were struggling massively on offense for weeks going into the playoffs so it wasn’t a surprise to anyone following them they exited early.
As a blue jays fan, that was the stupidest thing I’ve ever seen. I want Schneider and Atkins fired. Anyone saying Schneider was just a puppet and didn’t actually have a say is high. All Schneider had to do was stand still. No one forced him to walk out there. He’s done this 2 years in a row and I’m not going thru another one with his incompetent a$$. Dude can’t make a single decision for himself he’s been doing this ever since he became manager. That was the worst blue jay postseason game they’ve ever played
The Blue Jays have AMAZING players; problem are 100% their manager and coaches. John Schneider has no business managing a major league team, not only did he pulled Berrios too soon, but he burned every single bullpen arm available. And I don't know who needs to hear this.....but no, the Blue Jays' FO had nothing to do with that, do you really think there was a direct line between Rogers Center and the Visitors dugout at the Twins stadium? GTFOH.
That move where Vladdy was picked up was just idiotic when we all know he is one of the least athletic in that team (along side Kirk), coaches should've known better. Not to mention they couldn't fixed his batting problem the whole season. Oh and let's not talk about Manoah's mess.
If they don't revamp their whole staff, they'll become the "cheaper version of the Padres"
I dont even want to sports anymore...
Can we all agree that these teams leaning too heavily on analytics has proven to be a pox on them?
Hey, um, would you mind sending him back to Minnesota?
Jays manager blew it
Whats what happens when you pick analytics over manalytics.
Yeah rays pulling Snell was the dumbest shit you could of ever done and idk why coaches don’t let a pitch just ride it out especially berrios situation like dude hadn’t given up a run yet I’m starting to think these managers betting on the side took pitching outs under 😂 cause there’s no other explanation for this bs
It’s called over managing. The post season will always suss out mediocre managers.
Got to be a follow up video on how Atkins and the upper management are gaslighting the fanbase now shortly
Berrios, you were awesome at the mound
I was so fucking angry when coach took Berrios out I celebrated them being eliminated.
As a xmas present I want that coach to be fired..
Damn straight they did
Its Toronto sports
As a jays fan I’m really disappointed
Sorry but in Minnesota we’re kind of used to Rocco Baldeli making stupid moves You guys made Roccos year
The last slurve I’ve seen move that much was Jose Fernandez RIP
it was actually 2 lefties coming up but the twins subbed out kirriloff for solano
Which is something the Jays should have obviously knew was gonna happen haha. Just a dumb move overall
@@iTalkStudios oh yeah absolutely a stupid move im just trying to get that out there because most people wont see that at a glance
Three of the next four hitters were lefties. The move forced the Twins to take two dangerous lefty bats out of the lineup so that they wouldn't destroy the righty relievers who would be coming into the game. The Twins were held scoreless after the inning of the switch, so that part of the plan worked. The Jays pitching staff only gave up two runs the entire game. I'd expect a win when a pitching staff does that.
@@Dulcimerist berrios would have given up 0 tho...
@@andyluce7871 Which would have won the game 0-0?
Three things need to happen in the off season: Mattingly needs to replace Schneider, hitting coach needs to be given his walking papers, and the Jays need to get someone RELIABLE in the cleanup spot. The bad baseball IQ on display this entire season was mind numbingly frustrating. And its not even the players! It's all in the dugout and in the front office. The wildcard games were just a microcosm of what the team has been dealing with all year. Given how weak the Yankees and Sox were this season, this could've been the Jays' year.
John Schneider failed him. Not the fans or the players. I was surprised that he was pulled after 3 innings. John Schneider has a trust issues with his pitcher. I loved the pitching staff and what Pete Walker did for the Starting picture. Jose you are a hero!
The issue is NOT Pitching...and there are some defensive acrobats as well(Springer and Biggio).
WOW! A trust issue with Berrios? Quick, google up Berrios' numbers for 2023, and what do you see? A 29 year old, sub .500 pitcher (11-12) with a 3.65 ERA (lifetime 4.15). If all Jays pitchers had his record, then Jays wouldn't be in the post season. How much trust would Schneider have with a record like that, and with Jose going much beyond 3 innings?
has the desk jockeys in the analytics department ever play one game of baseball?? Fire them, fire Atkins & Schneider! Analytics are good to get info but can't rely on it or die by it.
How does Berrios ever trust this team again? 'Even if I do my job, i can't rely on this team to have my back'. FIRE ROSS ATKINS & JOHN SCHNEIDER. If they remain in place next April, I have watched my last Blew Jays game.
All companies fail their employees
Baseball is finished. I grew up a die hard baseball fan from about 1993 to 2016. Haven’t watched even a half inning since.
The nerds won. Baseball fans lost.
Blake Snell would like a word.
Hope he asks to be traded
That sweeper is nasty AF