Sodium ion batteries don't have to be produced at a large scale. Just the fact that they exist and work is enough to keep lithium prices down. That's why we need many types of batteries, it's just to keep the price of any one type of material from getting out of control. Even if they are not used in cars that keeps grid scale batteries from using up all the good car batteries.
Yeah exactly and right now Lithium prices have tanked like 70% since 2022 but if it starts going up again, Sodium will make more sense again. Mainly for lower-range cars as mentioned in the video
If sodium ion batteries work then why would you use lithium ion batteries? You wanted to keep the burning EV video tirades from the fossil fuel PR troll farms going? Or maybe since it's a huge environmental nightmare to extract lithium... you could still invest in it anyways like "who cares"... because the price is really low right now?
@@jb5music This is a "bring everything" moment. We can't be nit picking about every type of battery, we need them all. Each will be good for something even if it's not cars.
Great to see sodium coming through to market. From what I've read, Sodium batteries are also a lot less toxic to produce than lithium. Imagine this helps a lot for their green credentials.
Not to mention the socioeconomic benefits that come from ditching lithium mining. Salt is easy to mine compared to lithium. I think sodium ion or zinc ion will eventually replace lithium. Even at this early stage, probably where lithium was devopment wise 20 years ago, sodium is showing itself to already be an economically viable alternative.
Sodium ion batteries are perfectly adequate for cheap city runabouts and any static battery installation where energy density isnt such a big deal. Less lithium in those applications means more lithium for other applications.
Diversifying battery chemistries is a good thing. This will be especially useful for smaller cars that are mostly used for shorter drives such as trips to the local shops, to park at a train station and local deliveries and errands. This also frees up lithium for use cases that require higher energy densities. The biggest impact of chemistries such as sodium ion will come for replacing lithium ion in status energy storage for grid, community and home batteries where volumetric and gravimetric entity are not important but cost is of primary importance. This will free up a lot of lithium that will be directed towards transport applications.
The catching fire part isn´t even the big issue, it´s still rather rare even so increasing infrequency. The real issue is the battery pack burning at 2000+C which easily melts steel and the huge problem to extinguish a burning battery pack. Literally any sort of energy storage that doesn´t burn that hot or can at least be extinguished quickly is a massive improvement.
Sodium Ion batteries have the added benefit of avoiding major conflict materials like cobalt or manganese. A lot of consumers at least where I live in the USA are starting to be more conscious of their consumption especially when it comes to these conflict materials.
Yep despite the new reserves the real problem is the time and polluting technology of its processing. Even the US was sending raw materials to china for processing ... as they had invested the most in the technology. Save to say current technology is problematic in that it requires a lot of water energy and secondary materials.. producing a lot of CO2 and other pollutants.
Not sure what the big mystery is here. Nearly 300 km range? Cheaper car? 80% charge in 20 minutes?? Sounds like a perfectly fine car for most of the people in the world. Even in the US, the average suburbanite has a daily commute that is way under this.
Please Electric Viking, "Watt Hours per Kilogram", not "Watts per kilogram". I know you know but it helps lessen the confusion within the masses. That being said, I love your videos.
I would love to see Sodium Ion Batteries... but because of there lower power density i think they will work better in static storage more than in cars. If you can have a clone power wall for less money but 20% bigger for the same power output.. it is not a problem. the problem is they just dont have the density but they are really good about not being able to catch fire even when punctured and crushed , Not for cars.. yes for static storage.
Sodium batteries are the future of mass produced cars for: 1, no rare earth metals needed. 2, essy and cheap access to Sodium and iron for all developed countries all developing countries and most(not all) other countries. 3, Most important of all the sum of reson 1 and 2 makes them non Geopolitical
Excited for sodium ion just for static battery installations. At scale they will have significant cost savings. By the time you can buy home batteries, solar panels will be even cheaper.
It took 30 years for lithium ion to become mainstream in cars. Don't expect sodium ion to replace lithium ion so quickly. But yes, in the long term, I agree with you, sodium will replace lithium for a pure cost reason
Say Ellie ta muh litta fren ever changin checkmate battery chemistry…… it’s game over indeed ( grid ~ home an work stationary storage). Vehicles maybe so
120wh/kg at the pack level doesn't seem really far off LFP. More concerning is that a 25kwh pack can only produce peak 75kw power, which means a 3C peak discharge current from the cells. At 200kg for such a small pack, that doesn't bode well for use in larger vehicles -- a 75kwh pack would weigh 600kg and only produce 225kw peak power for the motors. An LFP pack at 75kwh might weigh only 450kg and produce 375kw peak, and a ternary pack only 350kg and produce 600kw peak. For example, replacing the Cyber truck 123kwh pack with these Sodium-Ion packs would mean 1000kg battery weight that would peak at only 400kw power -- in effect, adding 400kg weight and cutting power in half.
Assuming your math checks out, lets remember Sodium batteries would be used for low cost cars and you're worried about it "only" having 225kw peak power? Since when has this started to be considered low power? I think people are getting jaded by cars like the Model S Plaid, most people don't need anywhere near that kind of power.
@@itekani It said the base car has a 25kwh battery pack and has 75kw motor power. That is 3C discharge rate for a 25kwh pack to produce peak 75kw. So, apparently, this sodium ion battery is not like other chemistries that can discharge faster than charge. The larger battery can produce 100kw power but I think the same motor, so it is a battery discharge limit.
Thanks for covering this. There was quite a bit of hype at the beginning of this year about na-ion. Unless mass production kicks in and lowers the price, this battery tech appears to be waiting in the wings.
I have a suspicion that sodium ion packs might play a significant role in futire cheaper battery pack replacements for current EVs on the market. Certainly if the are quite safe and perform reasonably at different temperatures even with no active thermal cooling systems. I couldsee a whole slew of ice cars being converted to electric at affordable install prices. I think that could change the EV landscape on the whole.
When you say "whole slew of ice cars being converted to electric..." what do you mean exactly? Do you mean the manufacturer updates the newest model to be an EV instead of ICE? Or you mean actual retrofits on existing, already sold, ICE vehicles?
I have a funny thought. In Germany.... Okay but your car has less power than before!!! You can't drive that! Or you make all the tests the manufacturer did for this car again. But prepare.... You may get many new cars for the costs.
CATL believes Sodium-Ion will eventually make up almost 20 percent of the EV market. That may be true but personally I'm waiting for lower cost home storage using sodium. If we can get 5.2kw rack batteries down in the $600 to $800 range that would really change things, especially here in California where NEM 3.0 makes solar a bad investment for most people.
Same here in Netherlands. We have the most solar panels per capita in the world right now. But the advantages will soon be gone. And then you need batteries. Thats where sodium-ion comes to play.
whats great about sodium is that you can discharge them 0-100 over and over and it doesnt hurt the battery... so that should translate to less range anxiety... but as it is i think they will remain pretty niche
Thats quite possible... Motors use a lot of Cu and rare earths if permanent magnet types ... So logic states that the AEM 🇬🇧 type compressed Cu free Al windings and permanent magnet free type motors will be cheaper as well as longer life as they can run hotter and dont loose their magnetic strength through it or vibration. Wiring systems of buzzbars also reduces the amount of copper required and finally a bright spark has figured out that a Cu wire with a graphene carbon core can carry a significantly higher load and weighs less... Also if you switch up your traditional 12v devices to a 24 or 46 v you can save tons of copper and Wt. 🧙♂️ One other feature of the Na cells is they can be transported flat and can be run down safely and recharged to the max. now how that will work out in the initial vehicles i dont know. The first Chinese customers are in effect the beta testers.. but if you can charge up and run down an extra 10% top and bottom without damage and it can cope with higher C rates and wider temp ranges. it could still spring a suprise on the market. If theres a breakthrough arrives in a year then the capacity might increase from the Northvolt best of 160kwh /kg to a parity with or above current LiPosphate but with a simpler battery structure. Then comes the mix and matching of S and Al with Li and other elements. Though Al is relatively abundant recycling and cheap energy are going to be needed. We may need to get away from using any metal or mostly metal from construction of structural parts and body pannels.. And the lifespan of a vehicle rolling chassis may indeed have to increase again to warrant the investment in materials and energy in their construction. Inter Swappable/updatable battery tech as per Nios.. with after market motors/ drive systems and hyper efficient off the shelf control systems ..simple control systems. VW is already getting flak for relying on touch screens..so going back to more buttons and knobs. Especially for key driving controls mainly on safety grounds. Turns out doom scrolling is a thing with todays touch screen multi function entertainment center displays...just not in the original sense. A point also made by Edison motors with their hybrid electric truck conversions. Over complication of E vehicles is basically an 🍏 type strategy to stop owners and 3parties from doing stuff without paying through the nose first and declaring them obsolete because they want to introduce a new look model every 3years. Thats got to stop ... 🙄🧙♂️🇬🇧
@@sandponics Thats the problem ... We will need huge amounts more and mining it has created some of the biggest holes in the planet... Its already being stolen from big recyclers. The mining industry is estimating on 5 more world max size mines just to keep up. Its also heavy and expensive so substituting Al makes sense where it can be done. The basic problem is too many people consuming too much. The top 1% of the population consume as much as the lowest 2/3's combined. And the anthropogenic mass has for some years exceeded the biological mass of all life on the planet. Mineable reserves of many critical materials are none renewable... so we need to learn how to recycle and substitute with renewables and substitutes. They have also done work on forming copper wire round carbon fiber cores... It lighter uses less copper and is a better conductor. Think about the miles of wire used in aircraft...buildings and other machines. You substitute basalt fiber from the Rock in the form of construction steel tie rods and meshing for example. And its impervious to chemical /salt corrosion radiation and extreme temperatures.. so causes less problems over time and is massively less polluting to make. 🤷🏻♂️ Oh and its none hazardous... You can also make recyclable composite vehicle panels and parts from it because it is so ballistically tough and cheaper to manufacture. Its also found almost everywhere Globally. You can also modify wood to replace metal's and even glass ...but you've got to grow the stuff.. fast. .. but at least that is carbon negative as long as it stays locked in the things you make from it.
I am still more exited about Sodium. They should still be a priority since they are better for the environment and the entire point of going electric was the environment it still makes more sense.
With supercharging highly saturated and widely dispersed, 160Wh/Kg is all you will need. The challenge rests now in rollout of the super charging networks.
As long as these Na batteries are long lived, the best way of increasing the availability of Li for vehicles is to use Na for static applications. Market share and continued research will bring down the price of Na batteries just as it did with Li batteries and all that lovely freed-up Li can be used in vehicles.
Functional hybrids will have a combination of Sodium and Lithium batteries, not battery and gas. Sodium is especially useful in cold countries and for homes storage.
Sodium batteries are not affected by temperature, they dont catch fire and if produced in scale a 100kw battery that charges quickly is more than enough.
Sodium ion can replace the disposable, single-use, nickel-based AA/AAA and D cells out there today, and the rechargeable lithium cells of those types can be recycled for EV battery fodder. We should certainly expand sodium ion battery production and ramp up lithium battery recycling capacity.
The lithium was perfect for phones that had to fit on cellphones, but cars don't have the space constraints of cellphones, so a heavier or larger battery is not a problem, and other materials may be suitable if they can fit the needed number of cells on the car.
Electrifying the Future are looking Great ! Another safer sodium - ion batteries to choose from ! Eventually Range and Density will improve over the later years ! 😉💖⚡️🔋⚡️💖💯👍 😉💖⚡️🌎✌️
The fact that sodium batteries can be charged tob100% without degradation and last far longer than other battery tech while being cheap means we may have batteries that last longer than the cars they are in and reduce the cost of the cars. Imagine a car battery that lasts so long you can move it from car to car. Just buy a shell and swap the battery. Will be much safer to do battery repairs too. I'm very excited about this tech.
If sodium ion battery energy density improves and are cost competitive to LiFePO4, they’ll displace Li batteries from fixed/solar/off grid storage. I would purchase a battery with the least incendiary likelihood if I’m setting up fixed storage for a home or business. And the abundance of sodium will keep that raw material from causing price volatility.
The unit used for battery specific energy sensity is Wh/kg, not watts-per-kilogram. I know you know this, but you keepsaying it and it keeps sounding (and being) wrong.
One point to consider is where we are on the S-curve. Even if we have plenty of lithium, there will probably be a second price rise just because capacity planning for the steep part of the s-curve is extremely difficult and risky. Dodging that tightness might be a smart move even if they switch later.
I understand that sodium-iron batteries don't suffer intrinsic thermal runaway issues so I think they will take over the market. No doubt insurance companies and car owners will be much relieved that such cars won't suddenly burst into flames?
JAC combines the characteristics of a contract manufacturer and an ODM. The joint venture with VW doesn't really change that although having the JV do the custom design work might moderate the costs of producing finished custom vehicles made in limited production runs for one client (that is what the JAC-VW joint venture appears to be about). The JAC-VW JV is also probably meant to further hedge against the risk of VW's other China based JVs and business partnerships, including those with SAIC, X-Peng and Leapmotor, becoming a serious burden should any of them fail as business endeavours.
Thanks for sharing the new car design. The world expected to see a JAC E10X face first with the HiNa cells. Thus, I am delighted to see now a face lift for better distinction to the LFP Versions of E10X! The data tells us, it’s still the same platform.
Curiously never mentions the giant elephant in the room. SAFETY! Would I rather have an extinguishable battery in an accident or one that takes hours upon hours to extinguish. I think car manufacturers will include the costs of lesser lawsuits and shipping costs (lithium batts cost more to ship due to safety regs) when looking at battery costs as well as the enormous impact safety has on a car company reputation.
A possible problem with sodium-ion batteries is that it may not be economically viable to recycle them because the recovered materials may not cover the recycling costs. This may also be true for LFP batteries.
It's going to depend on the materials, which fluctuate a lot. But lithium will probably always be more expensive and very recyclable, and valuable. Sodium, I dunno, but today even plain glass is recycled and sold.
Biggest problem is not cost of battery itself, it will come down whatever the technology. The problem is construction and fitting the battery, which requires costly inefficient procedure for repairing and application/access to software and tools. Cost of repair and insurance can damage ev revolution. Swapping at the point of repair should be mandatory for all the manufacturers.
375m vehicle worth of lithium at Salton Sea sounds like a lot, but how much is really extractable, and what about the other 80% of the world's cars ? Not to mention all the lithium needed for energy storage batteries. So there had better be 20 other similar sized lithium deposits around the world. Or a more economical way to extract lithium from seawater. On the good side, Salton Sea is probably enough to replace every vehicle in North America with an EV and all our energy storage needs, as long as all used batteries are recycled. Not enough to export, though.
This is interesting, because if this have less loss in the cold and heat and a wltp of 250 km meaning 250 km. Heck, even if it's "only" 200km real range it beats the old 24 kwh Nissan leaf. With a fast charging capacity and a lower price this could be a winner. But I have heard it "only" is about a 10% reduction in costs, so I will give a good guess this is a $20 000 car, best case scenario a $15 000 car. I'm commenting on the promise of this technology, I don't really believe it before I start seeing som real world testing.
A contributing factor to lithium prices falling is that demand diminishes for it - when there is now a cheaper alternative. Even if there in theory is enough lithium (counting brine, new extraction technologies)... there is far from enough mines and production capacity. If EV sales will go from 10% of the market to 95% - and if all other industrial / agricultural / construction vehicles should be electrified - there is certainly new pressure coming on lithium prices.
❤sodium batteries are more environmentally friendly does not need large volumes of water to produce, does not contaminate rivers or lakes ,does not harm fish or wildlife wildlife
No quantity of lithium will ever compete with sodium. Just as soda ash, also known as sodium carbonate, the world reserves are estimated at 25 billion metric tons. There is about 283 times as much sodium as there is lithium in the earth crust, Estimates for lithium are 26 million tons world wide. Furthermore, it appears that sodium batteries are less sensitive to temperatures and do not tend to combust, at least not as easily as lithium ones do. I suspect lithium technology will eventually go the way of NiCad and NiMH.
Easier to recycle, less costly to source and produce, easier to recycle, more ecological and safe to source, produce, and recycle. No fire risk and resist cold temperatures not needing pre conditioning for charging. Yes, less cycles and storage density now, but the same as the early lithium batteries, so with some tech work.. the solution for the future. Sodium is available evrywhere and does not require nearly as much water to source, so.... not the same explotation of a few places on earth.
252km range on sodium battery option and 505km range on LiFePO4 suggests the power density of each option is not similar despite what you tuber states at 6:25. At this stage sodium batteries make the most sense for stationary storage batteries for grid power systems.
Sodium battery technology is still progressing, in the future Wh/kg will continue to increase and become feasible for EVs, the first ev with a first generation technology sodium battery was the byd seagull and that was quite decent for an ev
my biggest issue with EV is how damn expensive it is to replace them. A 10 year old Tesla with 50% battery life will cost 15k to get a new battery, outrageous price.
Storing hydrogen in MOF eliminates fire, explosion or compression. Any type of water can provide hydrogen on demand not with electrolysis but Energetic Cavitation Impact, by Prof Marc Ramsey, Vanderbilt University and replicated by @EirexTech the 5 year old cavitation company using any type of water is ideal for Keyou GbmH for trucks that can travel 650 miles using cryogenic hydrogen storage tanks right now in China.
I will never understand why people ‚hype‘ the Lithium production issues. This is all ‚peanuts‘ compared to all the damages from oil, coal and Uranium; also and especially during production.
I bet they will mix two kinds of batteries in an EV. Optimize for a daily 50 mile that can be replaced easily at a low cost and occasional 250 mile battery that lasts 500,000 miles because it doesn’t get used much.
Lithium only accounts for about 10% of the battery's weight though, the rest is everything needed to make lithium work and all of the protection it requires. While Na-ion may never beat Li-ion on cell-wise energy density, pack-wise density could be a different story with Na-ion batteries requiring less power management, less thermal management, less physical protection, less fire protection, etc.
Seems perfect for a compact urban runabout - but unfortunately none of the carmakers seem to want to supply such EV's to the European market. Maybe car parks and other places banning lithium EV's on the grounds of fire safety will give sodium ion batteries a boost.
I'd love to be able to buy these little EVs here in the USA but the Gov't is protecting the automotive industry and they refuse to even attempt to compete. They're intentionally building terrible and overpriced EVs nobody wants just to "prove" that nobody wants them.
Lithium batteries don't have to be cheap to make sodium a better alternative. Lithium batteries have a propensity to explode - which is rather off-putting. But as I understand it, new laws in the US will prohibit vehicles made in China, and several European countries want something similar.
well we wait, so far what I see for my next car is to keep my current Kia, but anyway good luck to VW and other brands selling new cars to millionares and billionares, we normal people will use metro or taxis sooner or later!
If it does succeed in being the battery of choice at least another three to five years before reaching mass market and hopefully EV car prices being comparative to regular fuel. The waiting game continues...
Sodium ion batteries don't have to be produced at a large scale. Just the fact that they exist and work is enough to keep lithium prices down. That's why we need many types of batteries, it's just to keep the price of any one type of material from getting out of control. Even if they are not used in cars that keeps grid scale batteries from using up all the good car batteries.
Yeah exactly and right now Lithium prices have tanked like 70% since 2022 but if it starts going up again, Sodium will make more sense again. Mainly for lower-range cars as mentioned in the video
If sodium ion batteries work then why would you use lithium ion batteries? You wanted to keep the burning EV video tirades from the fossil fuel PR troll farms going? Or maybe since it's a huge environmental nightmare to extract lithium... you could still invest in it anyways like "who cares"... because the price is really low right now?
@@jb5music because life is more then cars, density matters, weight matters, performance matters
@@jb5musicsodium battery cars still have less range. But if charging infrastructure built out range won't be as important. I'm all for sodium
@@jb5music This is a "bring everything" moment. We can't be nit picking about every type of battery, we need them all. Each will be good for something even if it's not cars.
Great to see sodium coming through to market. From what I've read, Sodium batteries are also a lot less toxic to produce than lithium. Imagine this helps a lot for their green credentials.
Not to mention the socioeconomic benefits that come from ditching lithium mining. Salt is easy to mine compared to lithium. I think sodium ion or zinc ion will eventually replace lithium. Even at this early stage, probably where lithium was devopment wise 20 years ago, sodium is showing itself to already be an economically viable alternative.
Lithium is not that toxic. Many take it as a supplement.
Sodium ion batteries are perfectly adequate for cheap city runabouts and any static battery installation where energy density isnt such a big deal. Less lithium in those applications means more lithium for other applications.
As, as sodium-ion batteries are much less flammable, they would provide for a much safer home energy storage as well.
Watch CATL they are making a sodium battery with 700km of range that costs 1/7 of an LFP.
Diversifying battery chemistries is a good thing. This will be especially useful for smaller cars that are mostly used for shorter drives such as trips to the local shops, to park at a train station and local deliveries and errands. This also frees up lithium for use cases that require higher energy densities. The biggest impact of chemistries such as sodium ion will come for replacing lithium ion in status energy storage for grid, community and home batteries where volumetric and gravimetric entity are not important but cost is of primary importance. This will free up a lot of lithium that will be directed towards transport applications.
I think any battery which won't catch fire has a huge advantage over the current ones.
The catching fire part isn´t even the big issue, it´s still rather rare even so increasing infrequency. The real issue is the battery pack burning at 2000+C which easily melts steel and the huge problem to extinguish a burning battery pack. Literally any sort of energy storage that doesn´t burn that hot or can at least be extinguished quickly is a massive improvement.
Breathy voice -Ultrifiiiiiiiiiiiiiiire
Sodium Ion batteries have the added benefit of avoiding major conflict materials like cobalt or manganese. A lot of consumers at least where I live in the USA are starting to be more conscious of their consumption especially when it comes to these conflict materials.
This is an underrated comment. It's not just the lithium but the other materials as well.
As I understand sodium batteries work better in a wider range of temperatures and are has lower risk of fire.
Better performance on the cold climate
0 risk of fire
Need no warming up conditions bc they tolerate up to -20C... plus a lot other advantages
Sodium ion batteries will be environmentally cleaner , so thats a tick from me
Yep despite the new reserves the real problem is the time and polluting technology of its processing. Even the US was sending raw materials to china for processing ... as they had invested the most in the technology.
Save to say current technology is problematic in that it requires a lot of water energy and secondary materials.. producing a lot of CO2 and other pollutants.
I've read sodium ion might work really well in cold temps, might be a good chemistry for cold areas.
Not sure what the big mystery is here. Nearly 300 km range? Cheaper car? 80% charge in 20 minutes?? Sounds like a perfectly fine car for most of the people in the world. Even in the US, the average suburbanite has a daily commute that is way under this.
Please Electric Viking, "Watt Hours per Kilogram", not "Watts per kilogram". I know you know but it helps lessen the confusion within the masses. That being said, I love your videos.
Sam doesn't appear to read replies to his videos. I have told him the same thing many times...
Fire safety is always on my mind.
But won't the salt cause the cars to rust out from the inside?
I would love to see Sodium Ion Batteries... but because of there lower power density i think they will work better in static storage more than in cars. If you can have a clone power wall for less money but 20% bigger for the same power output.. it is not a problem. the problem is they just dont have the density but they are really good about not being able to catch fire even when punctured and crushed ,
Not for cars.. yes for static storage.
Exactly these would be great for static storage and would free Li ion for vehicles and other uses where energy density is important.
The sodium battery has been used in the BYD Seagull car and seems to work without any problems
Sodium ion battery is very good for Stationary Grid scale storage.
Energy Density is not a concern there.
Gravity Energy Storage is more efficient than any chemical battery.
I commented on another YT video asking if you could cover this. So glad to see you have!
Sodium batteries are the future of mass produced cars for:
1, no rare earth metals needed.
2, essy and cheap access to Sodium and iron for all developed countries all developing countries and most(not all) other countries.
3, Most important of all the sum of reson 1 and 2 makes them non Geopolitical
Excited for sodium ion just for static battery installations. At scale they will have significant cost savings. By the time you can buy home batteries, solar panels will be even cheaper.
This type of EV may be really successful in large urban centres with a dense charging infrastructure.
This would cover 100% of the driving I do with the smaller of our 2 cars. The other is a highway cruiser.
It took 30 years for lithium ion to become mainstream in cars. Don't expect sodium ion to replace lithium ion so quickly. But yes, in the long term, I agree with you, sodium will replace lithium for a pure cost reason
Congratulations BYD
First sodium Battery.
Ok, I'm gonna say it: Game Changer 🎉😮😂 Thanks for this update, Sam , staying ahead of the curve!
Say Ellie ta muh litta fren ever changin checkmate battery chemistry…… it’s game over indeed
( grid ~ home an work stationary storage). Vehicles maybe so
no it's not. LFP this year are going to reach
120wh/kg at the pack level doesn't seem really far off LFP. More concerning is that a 25kwh pack can only produce peak 75kw power, which means a 3C peak discharge current from the cells. At 200kg for such a small pack, that doesn't bode well for use in larger vehicles -- a 75kwh pack would weigh 600kg and only produce 225kw peak power for the motors. An LFP pack at 75kwh might weigh only 450kg and produce 375kw peak, and a ternary pack only 350kg and produce 600kw peak.
For example, replacing the Cyber truck 123kwh pack with these Sodium-Ion packs would mean 1000kg battery weight that would peak at only 400kw power -- in effect, adding 400kg weight and cutting power in half.
Did I miss something or wasn't the 3C rating just for charging? Discharging rate surely must be higher?
LFP is evolving too. Geely's "Golden" LFP battery has reached the specific energy density of the best NMC batteries: 255 Wh/kg!
No batteries have a chance against the upcoming next generations of Sodium-Ion batteries on the long run.
Assuming your math checks out, lets remember Sodium batteries would be used for low cost cars and you're worried about it "only" having 225kw peak power? Since when has this started to be considered low power? I think people are getting jaded by cars like the Model S Plaid, most people don't need anywhere near that kind of power.
@@itekani It said the base car has a 25kwh battery pack and has 75kw motor power. That is 3C discharge rate for a 25kwh pack to produce peak 75kw. So, apparently, this sodium ion battery is not like other chemistries that can discharge faster than charge. The larger battery can produce 100kw power but I think the same motor, so it is a battery discharge limit.
Really cool car and concept. I hope it is successful, because those cheap cars might be what will drive up EVs demand in the third world.
First world too! I'll buy one !
Especially Australia!
Thanks for covering this. There was quite a bit of hype at the beginning of this year about na-ion. Unless mass production kicks in and lowers the price, this battery tech appears to be waiting in the wings.
If you like the sodium-ion batteries it's because you haven't tried the Vegemite-ion batteries yet.
I have a suspicion that sodium ion packs might play a significant role in futire cheaper battery pack replacements for current EVs on the market. Certainly if the are quite safe and perform reasonably at different temperatures even with no active thermal cooling systems. I couldsee a whole slew of ice cars being converted to electric at affordable install prices. I think that could change the EV landscape on the whole.
When you say "whole slew of ice cars being converted to electric..." what do you mean exactly? Do you mean the manufacturer updates the newest model to be an EV instead of ICE? Or you mean actual retrofits on existing, already sold, ICE vehicles?
I have a funny thought. In Germany.... Okay but your car has less power than before!!! You can't drive that! Or you make all the tests the manufacturer did for this car again. But prepare.... You may get many new cars for the costs.
Always great watch mate, love the information but down to earth approach with not too many negatives 👍. Oh yeh and nice bike in the background 🤟
Sodium batteries do better in cold climates.
What about in hot climates like 50 degrees C?
If I were in the insurance business . I would not write a policy on a lithium powered vehicle .
CATL believes Sodium-Ion will eventually make up almost 20 percent of the EV market. That may be true but personally I'm waiting for lower cost home storage using sodium. If we can get 5.2kw rack batteries down in the $600 to $800 range that would really change things, especially here in California where NEM 3.0 makes solar a bad investment for most people.
Same here in Netherlands. We have the most solar panels per capita in the world right now. But the advantages will soon be gone. And then you need batteries. Thats where sodium-ion comes to play.
Who would have though that the salt you used to put on your fish and chips would one day power your car?
For your family best regards and wishes with thanks
✨
whats great about sodium is that you can discharge them 0-100 over and over and it doesnt hurt the battery... so that should translate to less range anxiety... but as it is i think they will remain pretty niche
probably the lack of copper is more important for the price advantage of the SIB chemistry than the lack of lithium.
Thats quite possible... Motors use a lot of Cu and rare earths if permanent magnet types ... So logic states that the AEM 🇬🇧 type compressed Cu free Al windings and permanent magnet free type motors will be cheaper as well as longer life as they can run hotter and dont loose their magnetic strength through it or vibration.
Wiring systems of buzzbars also reduces the amount of copper required and finally a bright spark has figured out that a Cu wire with a graphene carbon core can carry a significantly higher load and weighs less... Also if you switch up your traditional 12v devices to a 24 or 46 v you can save tons of copper and Wt. 🧙♂️
One other feature of the Na cells is they can be transported flat and can be run down safely and recharged to the max. now how that will work out in the initial vehicles i dont know. The first Chinese customers are in effect the beta testers.. but if you can charge up and run down an extra 10% top and bottom without damage and it can cope with higher C rates and wider temp ranges. it could still spring a suprise on the market.
If theres a breakthrough arrives in a year then the capacity might increase from the Northvolt best of 160kwh /kg to a parity with or above current LiPosphate but with a simpler battery structure.
Then comes the mix and matching of S and Al with Li and other elements.
Though Al is relatively abundant recycling and cheap energy are going to be needed.
We may need to get away from using any metal or mostly metal from construction of structural parts and body pannels..
And the lifespan of a vehicle rolling chassis may indeed have to increase again to warrant the investment in materials and energy in their construction.
Inter Swappable/updatable battery tech as per Nios.. with after market motors/ drive systems and hyper efficient off the shelf control systems ..simple control systems.
VW is already getting flak for relying on touch screens..so going back to more buttons and knobs. Especially for key driving controls mainly on safety grounds. Turns out doom scrolling is a thing with todays touch screen multi function entertainment center displays...just not in the original sense.
A point also made by Edison motors with their hybrid electric truck conversions.
Over complication of E vehicles is basically an 🍏 type strategy to stop owners and 3parties from doing stuff without paying through the nose first and declaring them obsolete because they want to introduce a new look model every 3years.
Thats got to stop ... 🙄🧙♂️🇬🇧
You can easily recycle copper, and we have already extracted vast amounts of it from the earth.
@@sandponics
Thats the problem ... We will need huge amounts more and mining it has created some of the biggest holes in the planet...
Its already being stolen from big recyclers. The mining industry is estimating on 5 more world max size mines just to keep up.
Its also heavy and expensive so substituting Al makes sense where it can be done.
The basic problem is too many people consuming too much. The top 1% of the population consume as much as the lowest 2/3's combined. And the anthropogenic mass has for some years exceeded the biological mass of all life on the planet.
Mineable reserves of many critical materials are none renewable... so we need to learn
how to recycle and substitute with renewables and substitutes.
They have also done work on forming copper wire round carbon fiber cores... It lighter uses less copper and is a better conductor.
Think about the miles of wire used in aircraft...buildings and other machines.
You substitute basalt fiber from the Rock in the form of construction steel tie rods and meshing for example. And its impervious to chemical /salt corrosion radiation and extreme temperatures.. so causes less problems over time and is massively less polluting to make. 🤷🏻♂️ Oh and its none hazardous... You can also make recyclable composite vehicle panels and parts from it because it is so ballistically tough and cheaper to manufacture. Its also found almost everywhere Globally.
You can also modify wood to replace metal's and even glass ...but you've got to grow the stuff.. fast. .. but at least that is carbon negative as long as it stays locked in the things you make from it.
I am still more exited about Sodium. They should still be a priority since they are better for the environment and the entire point of going electric was the environment it still makes more sense.
Lithium still must be mined, not a "green" process. Sodium is in ocean water, and only needs to be refined. Sodium will be a cleaner element to use.
With supercharging highly saturated and widely dispersed, 160Wh/Kg is all you will need. The challenge rests now in rollout of the super charging networks.
I would purchase a smaller car with low range at $15,000 as a backup car. Like an extra car. I would use it only for city driving.
As long as these Na batteries are long lived, the best way of increasing the availability of Li for vehicles is to use Na for static applications. Market share and continued research will bring down the price of Na batteries just as it did with Li batteries and all that lovely freed-up Li can be used in vehicles.
Functional hybrids will have a combination of Sodium and Lithium batteries, not battery and gas. Sodium is especially useful in cold countries and for homes storage.
Sodium batteries are not affected by temperature, they dont catch fire and if produced in scale a 100kw battery that charges quickly is more than enough.
Sodium ion can replace the disposable, single-use, nickel-based AA/AAA and D cells out there today, and the rechargeable lithium cells of those types can be recycled for EV battery fodder.
We should certainly expand sodium ion battery production and ramp up lithium battery recycling capacity.
The lithium was perfect for phones that had to fit on cellphones, but cars don't have the space constraints of cellphones, so a heavier or larger battery is not a problem, and other materials may be suitable if they can fit the needed number of cells on the car.
Smart business by VW group.
Because of the low Wh/kg, you would rather expect sodium ion batteries to be used for stationary solutions. Also because they are less fire hazard.
Sodium battery technology is still progressing, in the future Wh/kg will continue to increase and become feasible for EVs
Electrifying the Future are looking Great !
Another safer sodium - ion batteries to choose from !
Eventually Range and Density will improve over the later years !
😉💖⚡️🔋⚡️💖💯👍
😉💖⚡️🌎✌️
The fact that sodium batteries can be charged tob100% without degradation and last far longer than other battery tech while being cheap means we may have batteries that last longer than the cars they are in and reduce the cost of the cars.
Imagine a car battery that lasts so long you can move it from car to car.
Just buy a shell and swap the battery.
Will be much safer to do battery repairs too.
I'm very excited about this tech.
If sodium ion battery energy density improves and are cost competitive to LiFePO4, they’ll displace Li batteries from fixed/solar/off grid storage. I would purchase a battery with the least incendiary likelihood if I’m setting up fixed storage for a home or business. And the abundance of sodium will keep that raw material from causing price volatility.
It’s cute as heck. I want one. But, of course, North America doesn’t get cute little cars.
The unit used for battery specific energy sensity is Wh/kg, not watts-per-kilogram. I know you know this, but you keepsaying it and it keeps sounding (and being) wrong.
One point to consider is where we are on the S-curve. Even if we have plenty of lithium, there will probably be a second price rise just because capacity planning for the steep part of the s-curve is extremely difficult and risky. Dodging that tightness might be a smart move even if they switch later.
I understand that sodium-iron batteries don't suffer intrinsic thermal runaway issues so I think they will take over the market. No doubt insurance companies and car owners will be much relieved that such cars won't suddenly burst into flames?
Sugar ion batteries are the best ❤
😅
keep up the great work
JAC combines the characteristics of a contract manufacturer and an ODM. The joint venture with VW doesn't really change that although having the JV do the custom design work might moderate the costs of producing finished custom vehicles made in limited production runs for one client (that is what the JAC-VW joint venture appears to be about). The JAC-VW JV is also probably meant to further hedge against the risk of VW's other China based JVs and business partnerships, including those with SAIC, X-Peng and Leapmotor, becoming a serious burden should any of them fail as business endeavours.
Thanks for sharing the new car design. The world expected to see a JAC E10X face first with the HiNa cells. Thus, I am delighted to see now a face lift for better distinction to the LFP Versions of E10X! The data tells us, it’s still the same platform.
Curiously never mentions the giant elephant in the room. SAFETY! Would I rather have an extinguishable battery in an accident or one that takes hours upon hours to extinguish.
I think car manufacturers will include the costs of lesser lawsuits and shipping costs (lithium batts cost more to ship due to safety regs) when looking at battery costs as well as the enormous impact safety has on a car company reputation.
A possible problem with sodium-ion batteries is that it may not be economically viable to recycle them because the recovered materials may not cover the recycling costs. This may also be true for LFP batteries.
It's going to depend on the materials, which fluctuate a lot. But lithium will probably always be more expensive and very recyclable, and valuable. Sodium, I dunno, but today even plain glass is recycled and sold.
Your lead acid battery are worth recycling.
It's always cheaper to recycle metals than mine them again and sodium batteries have a lot of metal so it's worth it.
Is the risk fire lower with sodium ion batteries?
sodium batteries are 100% safe, LFP batteries are probably 99% safe
Biggest problem is not cost of battery itself, it will come down whatever the technology. The problem is construction and fitting the battery, which requires costly inefficient procedure for repairing and application/access to software and tools. Cost of repair and insurance can damage ev revolution. Swapping at the point of repair should be mandatory for all the manufacturers.
375m vehicle worth of lithium at Salton Sea sounds like a lot, but how much is really extractable, and what about the other 80% of the world's cars ? Not to mention all the lithium needed for energy storage batteries. So there had better be 20 other similar sized lithium deposits around the world. Or a more economical way to extract lithium from seawater. On the good side, Salton Sea is probably enough to replace every vehicle in North America with an EV and all our energy storage needs, as long as all used batteries are recycled. Not enough to export, though.
This is interesting, because if this have less loss in the cold and heat and a wltp of 250 km meaning 250 km. Heck, even if it's "only" 200km real range it beats the old 24 kwh Nissan leaf. With a fast charging capacity and a lower price this could be a winner. But I have heard it "only" is about a 10% reduction in costs, so I will give a good guess this is a $20 000 car, best case scenario a $15 000 car. I'm commenting on the promise of this technology, I don't really believe it before I start seeing som real world testing.
Byd dolphin is selling for $15k in china. Guessing this will be cheaper.
A contributing factor to lithium prices falling is that demand diminishes for it - when there is now a cheaper alternative.
Even if there in theory is enough lithium (counting brine, new extraction technologies)... there is far from enough mines and production capacity.
If EV sales will go from 10% of the market to 95% - and if all other industrial / agricultural / construction vehicles should be electrified - there is certainly new pressure coming on lithium prices.
STICK WITH MY LFP, SR M3. THANKS SAM.
❤sodium batteries are more environmentally friendly does not need large volumes of water to produce, does not contaminate rivers or lakes ,does not harm fish or wildlife wildlife
Why is it the West cannot mass manufacture these cylindrical batteries for cars? It is absurd.
Sodium battery: saft & cheap
Charging time: 15 minutes
Range: 120km or more
Almost as good as an ICE vehicle.
No quantity of lithium will ever compete with sodium. Just as soda ash, also known as sodium carbonate, the world reserves are estimated at 25 billion metric tons. There is about 283 times as much sodium as there is lithium in the earth crust, Estimates for lithium are 26 million tons world wide. Furthermore, it appears that sodium batteries are less sensitive to temperatures and do not tend to combust, at least not as easily as lithium ones do. I suspect lithium technology will eventually go the way of NiCad and NiMH.
Let us hope that they are smart enough to make the battery packs serviceable .Probably asking to much . Lithium is history.
Easier to recycle, less costly to source and produce, easier to recycle, more ecological and safe to source, produce, and recycle. No fire risk and resist cold temperatures not needing pre conditioning for charging. Yes, less cycles and storage density now, but the same as the early lithium batteries, so with some tech work.. the solution for the future. Sodium is available evrywhere and does not require nearly as much water to source, so.... not the same explotation of a few places on earth.
252km range on sodium battery option and 505km range on LiFePO4 suggests the power density of each option is not similar despite what you tuber states at 6:25.
At this stage sodium batteries make the most sense for stationary storage batteries for grid power systems.
Sodium battery technology is still progressing, in the future Wh/kg will continue to increase and become feasible for EVs, the first ev with a first generation technology sodium battery was the byd seagull and that was quite decent for an ev
Starting 2024 the minerals used in the battery packs MUST be sourced in America for the tax credit.
Nice move Mr. President 👍
Damn, that’s way earlier than I expected.
Cost of lithium plummeted because sellers wanted to compete with Sodium. But is not sustainable, lithium will shoot back up.
Why put a JAC e-js1 as the thumbnail, though. That car was released like 3 years ago globally
Push harder for stewardship of lithium battery recycling.
One tiny advantage of sodium batteries is that don't tend to turn into a raging fireball at the drop of a hat.
my biggest issue with EV is how damn expensive it is to replace them. A 10 year old Tesla with 50% battery life will cost 15k to get a new battery, outrageous price.
Do the sodium-ion batteries catch fire with water? Is that an issue?
Good news, keep them coming Sam.
Storing hydrogen in MOF eliminates fire, explosion or compression. Any type of water can provide hydrogen on demand not with electrolysis but Energetic Cavitation Impact, by Prof Marc Ramsey, Vanderbilt University and replicated by @EirexTech the 5 year old cavitation company using any type of water is ideal for Keyou GbmH for trucks that can travel 650 miles using cryogenic hydrogen storage tanks right now in China.
So, when is VW Wolfsburg going to close down?
I will never understand why people ‚hype‘ the Lithium production issues.
This is all ‚peanuts‘ compared to all the damages from oil, coal and Uranium; also and especially during production.
I bet they will mix two kinds of batteries in an EV. Optimize for a daily 50 mile that can be replaced easily at a low cost and occasional 250 mile battery that lasts 500,000 miles because it doesn’t get used much.
Why does the interior and shape reminds me of the new introduced id2? 😆
Lithium batteries are a huge problem for pollution as well as for thermal runaway 🤔🤔
Periodic table:
1. Hydrogen (1.008)
2. Helium (4.026)
3. Lithium (6.94) = Very light as well…
11. Sodium (22.99)
don't confuse things with facts and science . LOL. (from a chemistry major )
You can get sodium(na) from table salt(nacl). Extremely cheap, extremely accessible.
The mitochondrion is the powerhouse of the cell.
how long till they have bio-batteries with mitochondria ?
@@incognitotorpedo42
Lithium only accounts for about 10% of the battery's weight though, the rest is everything needed to make lithium work and all of the protection it requires. While Na-ion may never beat Li-ion on cell-wise energy density, pack-wise density could be a different story with Na-ion batteries requiring less power management, less thermal management, less physical protection, less fire protection, etc.
VW?
I already did this at school, I didn't do any of my homework and they put my name.
But you recently said legacy automakers were going down the shitter, but now VW has a ground breaking new battery, and will be saved?
I don't like Lithium in cars because of the stability issues. I think they would be great for homes though and it's nice the prices are coming down.
Salt is abundant, but what do we do with the Chlorine? Oh, I know, swimming pools!
Seems perfect for a compact urban runabout - but unfortunately none of the carmakers seem to want to supply such EV's to the European market. Maybe car parks and other places banning lithium EV's on the grounds of fire safety will give sodium ion batteries a boost.
LFP type batteries are the safest type of lithium battery currently
I'd love to be able to buy these little EVs here in the USA but the Gov't is protecting the automotive industry and they refuse to even attempt to compete. They're intentionally building terrible and overpriced EVs nobody wants just to "prove" that nobody wants them.
Ok for in the city, but if you have to travel any distance, battery tech is just not up to it yet, unfortunately.
Lithium batteries don't have to be cheap to make sodium a better alternative. Lithium batteries have a propensity to explode - which is rather off-putting.
But as I understand it, new laws in the US will prohibit vehicles made in China, and several European countries want something similar.
Let us see how they price these vehicles
Let's see how much the stealerships mark them up.
well we wait, so far what I see for my next car is to keep my current Kia, but anyway good luck to VW and other brands selling new cars to millionares and billionares, we normal people will use metro or taxis sooner or later!
If cars can sell for $25K, sooner or later they will show up on the used market.
I think I might get a donkey and cart.
If it does succeed in being the battery of choice at least another three to five years before reaching mass market and hopefully EV car prices being comparative to regular fuel. The waiting game continues...
By the sound of things? Really just means less people will die not digging out heavy metals for your new venture
Do they have any "sodium software" solutions to go with this?
Good news..for city cars