🎁 Free Diagrams: cleversolarpower.com 📖 My Best-Selling book on Amazon: cleversolarpower.com/off-grid-solar-power-simplified Recommended 12V 100Ah lithium battery: cleversolarpower.com/go/litime12v100ah use code 'cleversolarpower' for 6% off.
That's right. The first three years, I'm running on the cheapest Lead Acid batteries I could buy. 12 x 115 AH for €130. I replaced 4 over the time, because they degraded very quick. Now I bought 16 LiFePo4 3.2 Volt, 320 Ah, for €1100. The difference in the usage of capacity is significant.
5 - Fire concerns. Living in the foothills of California, if the lithium battery decides to self detonate you cannot put it out and may burn the forest down. I have dug into the side of a hill and poured a cement bunker for the lithium batteries. I have a bank of Trojan lead acid batteries inside a storeroom attached to my house. Each set of batteries has it's own solar panels, charge controllers, and inverters. For safely and cost, I have two completely independent systems that can be transferred switched to any circuits of the property. I retired as an engineer aboard merchant ships and know 1st hand about fire hazards.
LiFePO4 batteries cannot catch fire. They can only off-gass during a short circuit. You are talking about a different chemistry called li-ion. Lead-acid can actually be more dangerous because the gasses can cause explosions if not properly vented (flooded types).
It's a fallacy that lead acid storage only allows one to use 50%. They are spec'd to go down to 'flat' however the life cycle count at that point is dismal - 200 for most, 400 for a really good quality one (which is hard to find these days).
we went for a agm battery to replace our standard lead acid leisure battery as buying a lithium would involve changing the whole charging system in the motorhome so it's not always the case with lithium. We had to get a smart charger for the agm's higher charge rate but apart from that , it was the best move for us.
I am doing AC coupling now. When it comes to voltage spikes, which one is better, Lead Acid or Lithium? Will the sudden shutdown of the BMS cause more problems?
@@cleversolarpower Not sure why this is happening. I have configured the Zero feed-in and frequency shift and ramp control as required, and the parameter settings seem to be correct, but I still get a high voltage alarm when the water heater suddenly stops. I guess it is because the PV inverter needs a certain response time to reduce the output, but this response time is still too long. In this case, if it is an AGM battery, even if the battery is full, it can still absorb a certain amount of power. If it is a fully charged lithium battery, will there be any problems? I heard that when the lithium battery is fully charged, the BMS will not accept current.
@@cleversolarpower I currently have AGM batteries and I am considering whether to switch to lithium batteries. However, good brands of lithium batteries cost 4 times as much as AGM. According to your calculation, it is still cost-effective.
@@pppidsn647 Yes, it will stop charging when the battery is full. However, seems like you need to fix the voltage spike first before getting lifepo4. Define good brands of lithium batteries. The one i showed is quite good and have good BMS'es.
@@cleversolarpower Yes Thank you so much. I learned a lot from your videos.And I am looking for an electrician to help me with this particular problem.
Very good video. Something else you might consider showing, mathematically, is the total number of watt-hours each battery can be expected to put out during its normal lifespan. As your calculations showed, it is 8x higher for LFP batteries.
Lifepo4 is good for inverters only. AGM is better as starting plus inverter. Been thinking about replacing my single starting battery with 2 AGM batteries. I have a second battery tray
There are lifepo4 batteries out there correctly designed and spec'd to act as starting batteries. AGM starter batteries, and that includes 'deep cycle' batteries, are usually a poor choice for energy storage use. Likewise AGM storage batteries usually make poor starter batteries.
@@retrozmachine1189 I think both of you make good and fair points. It is important for the viewer to understand that Nick is coming from the perspective of solar power systems only, whereas considerations mentioned in the video might be much different for different types of projects.
Interesting this figures and calculations. Living in RSA, where we had loadsheddings for almost 8 years straight. In 2022, we had an average of 4 power cuts per day, where it's off for 2 hours and on for 4 hours, continuously for 4 years and 8 months. We have also sub-station blown-ups which brings an average of 3-4 days no power (once every 3 months), sometimes 15 to 21 days no power (2023)! 1st: I had a nice 130 aH Lithium battery for CCTV and some lights. It holds up approx 4 months and it died completely. 2nd: I replaced this with a marine deep cycle 120 aH. It died a few months ago - 2 years (25 months). On the auto gates I had replaced all the lead acid batteries with lithium. A big mistake. (after a few hours gates crawl and just died in half-opening stages) I replaced the main entrance gate with lithium. Also a big mistake. (magnets hold and gates can not be used) No matter what the "stats" says, the lead acid batteries just keep going. The cost: Lithium loses big time. 3rd: 150 aH lead acid x 2 at the same cost of the 120 aH marine for all CCTV, and some lights. Previous setup: Keep power on for 4 - 5 hours, permanent recording 24/7/365.4 Setup: 1000W inverter, Auto switch 240V to 12V, battery charger 12V auto, keep power on for 7 - 9 hours (depending on weather darkness/winter), permanent recording 24/7/365.4 Period? Still counting 2 months +...
I dont know where you can get that lithium battery for that price! Here in UK that battery would much more than $190 ( uk equivalent about £170) probably nearer to 50-70% more.
In Ireland much the same, Lithium Batterys are more than double AGM Cheapest 48V 100Ah Lithium 1838.85 Euro ( 1.04$ = 1 Euro) Cheapest 48V 200Ah AGM 1600.00 Euro
Also, do not forget that battery prices vary widely between brands. It is more realistic to compare SLA and Lifepo4 prices within the same brand. And also to not use unreliable local sales event pricing.
i have a brand new 280AH lifepo4 battery and a brand new 3000 watt inverter by renogy . new victron mppt 100/30 smart charge controller. my battery doesn't last for 3 hours without the inverter beeping loudly at me. what is going on.
@@cleversolarpower I agree with you, but this is only for good brands. A brand called greenbank, 12V/200AH , the BMS has no user interface, and the capacity result from victron shunt test is 50% when the bms shutdown. May be due to bad cells. and also many renogy battery fail within 1~2years on productreviews website. Therefore, I suggest choose a good brand, otherwise use AGM🙂
Did they use the batteries in parallel or serial Connection? Voltage Spikes in These setups can significantly reduce lifespan of your Equipment. Make sure, the bms do not have to Disconnect. Its a Protection System, Not a Charge Indikator. Disconnection is causing load dumps and will damage your devices including other batteries in parallel or serial Connection. On a sunny/cloudy day wirh a repeating cycle of charge to 100%, dischrge to 98%, repeat, there can be hundreds of load dumps/ voltage Spikes per battery per day if you don"t take care. My guess is, that this is the n Most common cause for early degradation. If used correctly, lifepo works for decades.
@@cleversolarpower Useable capacity and efficiency are not multipliers on purchase cost, but on recharge cost, and perhaps the cost difference arising from different recharge rates required. For some projects other than solar power systems lifespan is not a consideration, since 1k cycles exceeds the lifespan of the project. Battery costs vary widely between brands. Within a given brand, and using regular prices rather than unreliable sales event prices between different brands, the cost difference is much greater, especially for the types of projects using smaller amp hour batteries. Considering these things I am not convinced that the real world total usage cost ratio of SLA to Lifepo4 is anywhere near 7.5, but is actually much less than 1.0.
And gravity have +200% efficiency if you tweak and tune a bit, and can become perpetual or overunity if you will. If you are in into wind, windmill style is much more efficient than those normal wind energy harvesters because it's mostly mechanical and can be used as mechanical or to harvest energy. 😂 You don't need 12 volt battery to harvest energy, unless you want to use it external.
Very enlightening video, but here the cheapest led acid 12v costs 50 euros +and the cheapest lithium 300+euros,if i make a very big battery bang with 2v and only use 20 or 30% of the capacity the batteries will last for years with the proper maintenance.
It matters what kind of lead-acid battery, you cannot use every lead-acid battery (especially not a car starting battery). I highly doubt that €50 will give you a good new battery. If the lead-acid battery is 8 times cheaper than lithium it's worth it.
Every year I see campers burnt out on camp sites with lithium..never seen a camper burnt out with lead acid...installs are safer & for normal use far cheaper I have 2 lead acid now 3 years on still strong & thousands of miles in travels & use...like all this nonsense with lithium they never perform as the should unless your in a climate that has consistency in temp...it's funny watching the lithium warriors & their cars struggling here in Scotland when it's cold they get half or less than manufacture miles that are already exaggerated because the batteries simply aren't as good as claimed a well looked after lead acid will last for years & easily brought back to life if looked after
Catching on fire! Would not trust a lithium in vehicle i am living and sleeping in,and in the cold weather we experience here in the UK,lithium batteries do not live up to anywhere near manufacturers claims.
Because lifepo is extremely unsafe...and all.them wanna save penny's... ridiculous..get LTO cells and they are safest in the world with loads loads loads of power... You pay what you get .. And people don't so research..lifepo I would never get in car ever... stupid
@@ktd2956wrong wiev sir... LTO is the safest ever..lifepo is dam fire hazard..and if you poor water it burn more 😂 Peo🎉are stupid with saving few dollars..they go for lifepo...never do that.. Run LTO cells Check online testing I use this for long time they amazing And takes 25000 cicles ..
🎁 Free Diagrams: cleversolarpower.com
📖 My Best-Selling book on Amazon: cleversolarpower.com/off-grid-solar-power-simplified
Recommended 12V 100Ah lithium battery: cleversolarpower.com/go/litime12v100ah use code 'cleversolarpower' for 6% off.
That's right. The first three years, I'm running on the cheapest Lead Acid batteries I could buy. 12 x 115 AH for €130. I replaced 4 over the time, because they degraded very quick. Now I bought 16 LiFePo4 3.2 Volt, 320 Ah, for €1100. The difference in the usage of capacity is significant.
5 - Fire concerns. Living in the foothills of California, if the lithium battery decides to self detonate you cannot put it out and may burn the forest down. I have dug into the side of a hill and poured a cement bunker for the lithium batteries. I have a bank of Trojan lead acid batteries inside a storeroom attached to my house. Each set of batteries has it's own solar panels, charge controllers, and inverters. For safely and cost, I have two completely independent systems that can be transferred switched to any circuits of the property. I retired as an engineer aboard merchant ships and know 1st hand about fire hazards.
LiFePO4 batteries cannot catch fire. They can only off-gass during a short circuit. You are talking about a different chemistry called li-ion. Lead-acid can actually be more dangerous because the gasses can cause explosions if not properly vented (flooded types).
It's a fallacy that lead acid storage only allows one to use 50%. They are spec'd to go down to 'flat' however the life cycle count at that point is dismal - 200 for most, 400 for a really good quality one (which is hard to find these days).
Yes, and whatever the useable capacity, it is not a multiplier on purchase cost.
we went for a agm battery to replace our standard lead acid leisure battery as buying a lithium would involve changing the whole charging system in the motorhome so it's not always the case with lithium. We had to get a smart charger for the agm's higher charge rate but apart from that , it was the best move for us.
I am doing AC coupling now. When it comes to voltage spikes, which one is better, Lead Acid or Lithium? Will the sudden shutdown of the BMS cause more problems?
A better question to ask is why do you have voltage spikes?
@@cleversolarpower Not sure why this is happening. I have configured the Zero feed-in and frequency shift and ramp control as required, and the parameter settings seem to be correct, but I still get a high voltage alarm when the water heater suddenly stops. I guess it is because the PV inverter needs a certain response time to reduce the output, but this response time is still too long. In this case, if it is an AGM battery, even if the battery is full, it can still absorb a certain amount of power. If it is a fully charged lithium battery, will there be any problems? I heard that when the lithium battery is fully charged, the BMS will not accept current.
@@cleversolarpower I currently have AGM batteries and I am considering whether to switch to lithium batteries. However, good brands of lithium batteries cost 4 times as much as AGM. According to your calculation, it is still cost-effective.
@@pppidsn647 Yes, it will stop charging when the battery is full. However, seems like you need to fix the voltage spike first before getting lifepo4. Define good brands of lithium batteries. The one i showed is quite good and have good BMS'es.
@@cleversolarpower Yes Thank you so much. I learned a lot from your videos.And I am looking for an electrician to help me with this particular problem.
Have you any experience using solar panels with microinverters? Can they be used for offgrid solar systems?
Very good video. Something else you might consider showing, mathematically, is the total number of watt-hours each battery can be expected to put out during its normal lifespan. As your calculations showed, it is 8x higher for LFP batteries.
perhaps, but does this change the cost and how and by what magnitude?
Lifepo4 is good for inverters only. AGM is better as starting plus inverter. Been thinking about replacing my single starting battery with 2 AGM batteries. I have a second battery tray
There are lifepo4 batteries out there correctly designed and spec'd to act as starting batteries. AGM starter batteries, and that includes 'deep cycle' batteries, are usually a poor choice for energy storage use. Likewise AGM storage batteries usually make poor starter batteries.
@@retrozmachine1189 I think both of you make good and fair points. It is important for the viewer to understand that Nick is coming from the perspective of solar power systems only, whereas considerations mentioned in the video might be much different for different types of projects.
Interesting this figures and calculations.
Living in RSA, where we had loadsheddings for almost 8 years straight.
In 2022, we had an average of 4 power cuts per day, where it's off for 2 hours and on for 4 hours, continuously for 4 years and 8 months.
We have also sub-station blown-ups which brings an average of 3-4 days no power (once every 3 months), sometimes 15 to 21 days no power (2023)!
1st: I had a nice 130 aH Lithium battery for CCTV and some lights. It holds up approx 4 months and it died completely.
2nd: I replaced this with a marine deep cycle 120 aH. It died a few months ago - 2 years (25 months).
On the auto gates I had replaced all the lead acid batteries with lithium. A big mistake. (after a few hours gates crawl and just died in half-opening stages)
I replaced the main entrance gate with lithium. Also a big mistake. (magnets hold and gates can not be used)
No matter what the "stats" says, the lead acid batteries just keep going.
The cost: Lithium loses big time.
3rd: 150 aH lead acid x 2 at the same cost of the 120 aH marine for all CCTV, and some lights.
Previous setup: Keep power on for 4 - 5 hours, permanent recording 24/7/365.4
Setup: 1000W inverter, Auto switch 240V to 12V, battery charger 12V auto, keep power on for 7 - 9 hours (depending on weather darkness/winter), permanent recording 24/7/365.4
Period? Still counting 2 months +...
I dont know where you can get that lithium battery for that price! Here in UK that battery would much more than $190 ( uk equivalent about £170) probably nearer to 50-70% more.
The same battery on amazon.co.uk is £212.
In Ireland much the same, Lithium Batterys are more than double AGM
Cheapest 48V 100Ah Lithium 1838.85 Euro ( 1.04$ = 1 Euro)
Cheapest 48V 200Ah AGM 1600.00 Euro
Also, do not forget that battery prices vary widely between brands. It is more realistic to compare SLA and Lifepo4 prices within the same brand. And also to not use unreliable local sales event pricing.
Nice calculation! 🥰
Thanks for considering us as reference.
i have a brand new 280AH lifepo4 battery and a brand new 3000 watt inverter by renogy . new victron mppt 100/30 smart charge controller. my battery doesn't last for 3 hours without the inverter beeping loudly at me. what is going on.
not every bms can last 10 years. I saw many cheap Lithium bms failed around 2~3 year. capacity reduced to 50% after 2years.
It's my expected average lifespan for a decent BMS. 50% with prismatic lifepo4 cells after 2 years is impossible. Bad cells or bad measurement.
@@cleversolarpower I agree with you, but this is only for good brands. A brand called greenbank, 12V/200AH , the BMS has no user interface, and the capacity result from victron shunt test is 50% when the bms shutdown. May be due to bad cells. and also many renogy battery fail within 1~2years on productreviews website. Therefore, I suggest choose a good brand, otherwise use AGM🙂
good to know, thanks
Did they use the batteries in parallel or serial Connection? Voltage Spikes in These setups can significantly reduce lifespan of your Equipment. Make sure, the bms do not have to Disconnect. Its a Protection System, Not a Charge Indikator. Disconnection is causing load dumps and will damage your devices including other batteries in parallel or serial Connection.
On a sunny/cloudy day wirh a repeating cycle of charge to 100%, dischrge to 98%, repeat, there can be hundreds of load dumps/ voltage Spikes per battery per day if you don"t take care. My guess is, that this is the n Most common cause for early degradation. If used correctly, lifepo works for decades.
the math is misleading
Howcome? Please explain.
@@cleversolarpower Useable capacity and efficiency are not multipliers on purchase cost, but on recharge cost, and perhaps the cost difference arising from different recharge rates required. For some projects other than solar power systems lifespan is not a consideration, since 1k cycles exceeds the lifespan of the project. Battery costs vary widely between brands. Within a given brand, and using regular prices rather than unreliable sales event prices between different brands, the cost difference is much greater, especially for the types of projects using smaller amp hour batteries. Considering these things I am not convinced that the real world total usage cost ratio of SLA to Lifepo4 is anywhere near 7.5, but is actually much less than 1.0.
And gravity have +200% efficiency if you tweak and tune a bit, and can become perpetual or overunity if you will.
If you are in into wind, windmill style is much more efficient than those normal wind energy harvesters because it's mostly mechanical and can be used as mechanical or to harvest energy. 😂 You don't need 12 volt battery to harvest energy, unless you want to use it external.
Its not best comparison sir:) you misleading people
Very enlightening video, but here the cheapest led acid 12v costs 50 euros +and the cheapest lithium 300+euros,if i make a very big battery bang with 2v and only use 20 or 30% of the capacity the batteries will last for years with the proper maintenance.
It matters what kind of lead-acid battery, you cannot use every lead-acid battery (especially not a car starting battery). I highly doubt that €50 will give you a good new battery. If the lead-acid battery is 8 times cheaper than lithium it's worth it.
now compare lithium to electric forklift battery...
I expect you mean secondhand forklift batteries? Forget it, they are getting rid of them for a reason.
Pricing is not the same in NZ.
249-479 for agm 100amp hour
800-1000 for liFeO.
The video uses local sales event pricing between two different brands. Your point is a good one.
😂... i kada ti auto ili kuća izgore zbog litijskih baterija zaključiš da su ipak preskupe...😂
And....and, the WEIGHT too!!! 🙂
Every year I see campers burnt out on camp sites with lithium..never seen a camper burnt out with lead acid...installs are safer & for normal use far cheaper I have 2 lead acid now 3 years on still strong & thousands of miles in travels & use...like all this nonsense with lithium they never perform as the should unless your in a climate that has consistency in temp...it's funny watching the lithium warriors & their cars struggling here in Scotland when it's cold they get half or less than manufacture miles that are already exaggerated because the batteries simply aren't as good as claimed a well looked after lead acid will last for years & easily brought back to life if looked after
What do you mean burnt out
Catching on fire! Would not trust a lithium in vehicle i am living and sleeping in,and in the cold weather we experience here in the UK,lithium batteries do not live up to anywhere near manufacturers claims.
@@ktd2956 lithium what? Iron phosphate? Carbon? Silicon what lithium type ??
Because lifepo is extremely unsafe...and all.them wanna save penny's... ridiculous..get LTO cells and they are safest in the world with loads loads loads of power... You pay what you get ..
And people don't so research..lifepo I would never get in car ever... stupid
@@ktd2956wrong wiev sir... LTO is the safest ever..lifepo is dam fire hazard..and if you poor water it burn more 😂
Peo🎉are stupid with saving few dollars..they go for lifepo...never do that..
Run LTO cells
Check online testing
I use this for long time they amazing
And takes 25000 cicles ..
🎉
I NEVER FINNISH HIGH SCHOOL AND I KNOW THIS COMMON SINCE SHIT LOL IF YOU DONT KNOW THIS BY NOW THEN YOU DESERVE TO LOOSE MONEY
First comment❤.
Lead acid batteries don't catch fire🤔
should be top comment.