B.O.B "Currahee" - Capt Herbert Sobel
Вставка
- Опубліковано 12 січ 2008
- my: www.myxpitstop.com
Herbert M. Sobel (January 26, 1912 - September 30, 1987) was an officer in the United States Army during World War II. He was initially the commanding officer of Company "E" in the 2nd Battalion, 506th Parachute Infantry Regiment of the 101st Airborne Division, the unit that is the subject of the book Band of Brothers by author Stephen Ambrose. In the BBC/HBO miniseries adaptation of the book, Captain Sobel was portrayed by actor David Schwimmer.
Promoted to first lieutenant, Sobel commanded Company E for all of their basic training at Camp Toccoa, Georgia, and was credited with having the finest company in the 506th Parachute Infantry Regiment. He was promoted to the rank of captain in recognition of his ability as a trainer. According to the book Band of Brothers, Sobel was disliked by the soldiers of Company E for his extreme strictness at Camp Toccoa, and though he was mentally strong, Sobel often had difficulties with physical activities, including combat training. His proficiency in skills critical for combat officers was somewhat lacking - for example, Sobel had difficulties in map reading (as depicted in the Band of Brothers miniseries episode "Currahee") and his grasp of military tactics was apparently poor.
After a period of training in the United Kingdom before the Normandy invasion, Captain Sobel was removed from command of Easy Company after several of the unit's non-commissioned officers refused to fight under him, believing him to be an incompetent combat commander who would get many of his own soldiers killed. He was then transferred to command the Chilton Foliat jump school. First Lieutenant Thomas Meehan replaced Sobel, and was one of several officers (including Richard Winters) to succeed him in that post before the war was over.
After the invasion of Normandy, Sobel was again moved to a combat assignment, where he was wounded by enemy machine gun fire.
Shortly before Easy Company took part in Operation Market Garden, Sobel was assigned to the 506th once again, this time as the regimental S-4 (logistics) officer.
Though Sobel was not qualified to be a combat leader, many veterans of Easy Company have stated that they believe they would not have survived the war without Sobel's hard training regimen at Camp Toccoa. There is no evidence in the public record regarding Sobel's performance as the jump school commander or as the regimental S-4. His duties in those positions would have relied on skills quite different from those needed to command an infantry company. - Авто та транспорт
![The Herbert Sobel Debacle [Part 1] - The Transfer Was Just The Start (Band of Brothers/Easy Company)](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/5rZAU8kagJw/mqdefault.jpg)
Gives him a drink, fires him with a compliment, and looks at the aide to open the door. Meeting over.
Major, not aide lol
@@LouSassol69er well, the Major is the Adjutant of the regiment, second in command (usually) to the Colonel.
In this particular position, he may very well be the Colonel's "aide de camp", so essentially - he is his "aide" ;-)
Great political way of say get the Fxck out you services are no longer needed.
I believe...I saw that silver oak leaves (O5, LTC) were on the officer by the door. He was not an “aide”. The eagles (06, COL) were on the regimental commander, so the second officer was likely the subordinate battalion commander who later appears as such in subsequent episodes. In a case like this, where a company commander’s relief was forthcoming, the regimental commander, not the battalion commander, would likely have relieved the company commander (O3, CPT). Likewise, and proportionally down a level, a battalion commander would have been responsible for relieving a platoon leader (02, 1LT) in his command.
@@brucev5493 so Winters when he was was promoted to Captain to be Battalion XO, but what was his role when he was promoted to Major? Bronze oak leaves so he still served under Strayer, the silver Oak leave officer in this video.
Never rated Schwimmer as an actor until I saw him in this series. He played an unsympathetic part brilliantly. Well done David
He was just being ross
Spot on comment
showed great acting range
Credit for that. Probably his best performance.
He played himself.
I loved it later on when Major Winter wouldn't let Sobel walk past him without saluting first...
"Salute the rank,not the man"
I am sure Winters took a lil pleasure in putting Sobel in his place .... But Sobel was an ass and was deliberately trying to walk pass a higher ranking officer without saluting ... Something, except in extremely rare circumstances, that isn't tolerated within the military and doesn't matter weather you like them or not.
@@celticlad3251 I just read the book and Winters said something to the effect that is was one of the most satisfying moments of his life when that happened.
@@celticlad3251
"past" "whether"
@@Bullski123 A phrase I heard many during my tenure in the Army and occasionally it was directed at me.
In the book this event was more complicated read the lengthy part here⬇️
"One weight that had been lifted from Winters’ shoulders was Herbert Sobel. The simmering dispute between the two had boiled over the previous October. Winters had been ordered by Sobel to inspect the company latrines an hour prior to an 11 A.M. inspection by Colonel Sink. After spending the morning, at Strayer’s direction, in the orderly room censoring the men’s outgoing mail, Winters pedaled his bicycle to the latrines, parking it outside at 10 A.M. on the dot. Entering, he found Sobel already inspecting the facility. Sobel brushed by Winters, head down, as if his lieutenant did not exist. Private Joachim Melo, the latrine orderly trailed along behind Sobel, mop in hand. Melo’s clothes were soaking wet, his face unshaven, his hair uncombed. To Winters he looked like “a man who had just finished a dirty job.” Completing his inspection, Sobel made some notations, then left without uttering a word. Winters proceeded to conduct his own inspection, finding that Melo had done an excellent job.Forty-five minutes later, as Winters prepared for the inspection, First Sergeant William S. Evans found him.“Lieutenant Winters,” Evans said, holding out a piece of paper. “Captain Sobel’s compliments, sir.”Winters took the paper and unfolded it. He couldn’t believe what he was reading.
Subject: Punishment Under 104th AWTo: 1st Lt. R.D. Winters1. You will indicate by indorsement (Author’s note: The misspelling was Evans’) below whether you desire punishment under 104th AW or trial by Courts Martial for failure to inspect the latrine at 0945 this date as instructed by me.
Herbert M. Sobel, Capt.
Commanding
Taken aback, Winters hurried to Sobel’s office to confront his commander, who told him he had changed the time to 9:45 and had both tried to phone Winters about the change and had sent a runner with the new time. Winters knew Sobel was trying to “gig” him; that no runner had been dispatched and that Sobel knew there was no phone in the orderly room. “Bullshit!” Winters told himself, anger welling up. “This is it.” After the inspection he returned to the orderly room and wrote “I request trial by Courts Martial for failure to inspect the latrines at 0945 this date” on the bottom of Sobel’s memo, signed and returned it.Next day Evans handed Winters a second note:
1. You will be denied a 48-hour pass until after Dec. 15, 1943.
2. In accordance with the procedure outlined in the Court Martial Manual you will institute your own letter of appeal with your reasons for objection and also a request for trial by courts martial.
3. Unless set aside by superior authority the above punishment will be enforced.
Relinquishing his pass was no punishment for Winters since he seldom left Aldbourne, preferring, as he wrote, to “loaf around camp on weekends” and read, run or play football. But the unwarranted attack infuriated him and he wrote in his November 4 appeal:
1. Under the provisions of Article of War 104 appeal is requested on punishment rendered by Captain Herbert M. Sobel on Lt. Richard D. Winters for failure to inspect latrines on Oct. 30, 1943 at 0945 hrs.
2. On October 30, 1943 I was ordered by Captain Herbert M. Sobel to inspect the latrines at 1000 hr. Until that hour I was engaged in supervision or work relegated to me by Lt. Col. Strayer at about 0930 hr. I did inspect the latrines at 1000 hr. and never received the latter order of Capt. Sobel moving up the time to 0945 hr. as I was on detail as previously explained.
The war on paper continued. On November 8, Sobel wrote to Winters, saying:
1. Punishment for the above offense given by the undersigned will not be lifted by him.
2. You will recall that in a telephone conversation about 0915 on Oct. 30, I talked with you and told you to be here at 0940 and to have Lt. Davis be here also then.
3. When given another task to perform by a ranking officer to myself you should have delegated your task to another officer to inspect the latrine and not let it go until such time that there was little time for corrective measures to be taken before the arrival of the General Officer about 10 minutes later.
On November 11, an exasperated Strayer intervened, writing that “Punishment under 104th A.W. of Lt. R.D. Winters is hereby set aside, as per authority contained in Court Martial manual. Papers will be returned to the appellants’ commanding officer for file with the record in the case.”The argument settled for him, a disgruntled Sobel fired a parting volley at Winters:
1. You will reply by indorsement hereon your reason for failure to instruct Pvt. J. Melo in his duties as latrine orderly.
2. You will further reply why he was permitted to be on duty at 1030 this date in need of a shave.
Winters’ reply to both accusations was “No excuse.”“I’m guilty,” he thought bitterly. “So shoot me.”
Despite the “acquittal,” Strayer transferred Winters out of Easy and made him battalion mess officer. This incensed Winters, who felt mess duty was only given to men “who were goof offs you don’t know what to do with.” Winters felt crushed. It was the first time since being in the army that he was not in the field with the men.The departure of Winters and the fact that Sobel remained in command of the company stirred the deepest resentment among the noncommissioned officers. Winters discovered how deep one Saturday afternoon when he was invited to a meeting of the noncoms in the orderly room.Each noncom thereupon wrote out his own resignation: Lipton’s went as follows: “I hereby turn in my stripes. I no longer want to be a non-commissioned officer in Company E.” Lipton was C.Q. (charge of quarters, the sergeant who slept in the orderly room to be available to handle any problems that came up during the night, to wake the men in the morning, etc.) that night. He
gathered up the resignations and put the stack in Sobel’s “in” basket.
The N.C.O.s then thought further about what they were doing and decided to consult with Winters. He was invited to the orderly room, where on arrival Ranney told him what the group had done.
Sergeant Myron “Mike” Ranney led the meeting.“We have decided we’ve had enough of Sobel and his bullshit,” he told Winters.
“We don’t want to serve as NCOs in any company led by that man, so we’ve decided to write letters to Sink, turning in our stripes.”Winters considered this for a moment, realizing the seriousness of what these sergeants were contemplating.“You’re talking mutiny,” he told them. “I can’t condone that action. Sink could have you all shot. Do yourselves a favor. Don’t even think about it.”
At that moment Sobel walked in. All eyes turned to him and he stared back at the men. It was Ranney who first regained his composure.“Now, how can we improve our athletic program?” he asked.Sobel picked up a book and left, but Winters was convinced Sobel knew something was afoot.The NCOs were resolved and, despite Winters’ words of caution, they presented their letters to their commander. Sink was furious at the sergeants’ ultimatum. He immediately busted Ranney to private and had Sergeant Terrence C. Harris transferred, but the poisoned atmosphere now plainly visible within Easy finally moved Sink to action. Sobel was reassigned to the jump school at Chilton Foliat and First Lieutenant Thomas Meehan was brought in from Baker Company to take command, with First Lieutenant Patrick J. Sweeney of Able Company temporarily transferred in as executive officer. Winters was brought back to the company and put in command of 1st Platoon, reclaiming his old job as executive officer after Sweeney’s departure.When the dust had settled, Major Horton, regimental XO, stopped Winters.“You gave me one hell of a problem trying to figure out how to quash that court-martial,” he said. “Sink was on my ass the whole damned time. We had the court-martial manual out and were doing a lot of reading for a couple of days.”“Sorry to give such trouble, sir,” Winters said. “But I had all of that S.O.B. I could take.”“Well, I’m just glad to have you back,” Horton said. “And so is the colonel.”
Fantastic read. Thank you.
again i blame the higher ups for not ntoicing sooner
@@Revkor seems to be the same story time and time again. have you seen generation kill? they had the same issues with dumbass officers, constantly risking the lives of their men, giving contradictory and foolish orders, and the higher-ups don't notice until it implodes and everyone gets in trouble
Thanks for this read It all
Like in the real world the higher up don't get it until people quit their jobs etc , even then they still don't get it and make excuses to cover their own bad leadership.
What Sink says: "The war effort needs you elsewhere." What Sink is thinking: "The war effort is better off without you in command of men in combat."
It is also recognizing that he was great at training.
He is also saving his life, bad officers gets fragged by their own men accidentally on purpose.
Actually he was being honest. Sobels are very useful people. Nothing brings a group of people who don't know one another together faster than a common enemy. I'd be willing to bet most people who join the military would agree with that
Basically the Colonel's nice way of telling him he sucked as a combat leader. Sobel was a good training officer.
Nuancolar Everyone has a part and his wasn’t in combat...
Whether I like Schwimmer or not is irrelevant. He gave a great performance, setting aside any ego to breathe life into the character, Sobel. Great work.
I agree fully. He did a marvelous job.
I agree to. If an actor can make me truly despise the character, that is a good actor.
Schwimmer rocked it--a true actor.
Guy Johnson yeah managed to put a Ross spin on it
@@mcpaplus BoB will be Schwimmer's crowning achievement as an actor even though Friends will always be his most well known and high paying job he'll ever do.
"I'm losing Easy Company?"
"Just consider yourself on a break."
I see what you did there
Colonel Sink demonstrated how you relieve an officer without actually relieving him. By reassigning Sobel he solves two problems at once (morale issue in E Co and identifying a commander for the new jump school). Another great example of leadership not to be overlooked here.
He handled it in a typically bureaucratic manner, much the way a Bishop might transfer a troublesome priest.
It looked to me like Sink was weak in this case. He should have directly addressed the problem.
@@LKtube1 He spared Sobels' feelings...not that he had to.
@@balancedactguy exactly, avoided the issue. Candid feedback is hard, but it’s better in the long run.
@@LKtube1 He did. Sobel is an excellent trainer of men but a horrible leader of men. His field tactics demonstrated this time and time again. Yes his men excelled but in a combat situation Sobel was unable to effectively lead. Had he stayed in his current position it might have led to another Lt. Dyke situation in that when actual bullets started flying he would have lost his situational control. Captain Sobel was an exemplary officer and disciplinarian. Therefore instead of leading men into combat, he would continue to train men. Col. Sink recognized this, took appropriate action and everyone was better off for it.
"Captain Sobel, you cut that fence and get this goddamn platoon on the move!!"
Yee..yees sir.
Felipe Saavedra Tapia where’s my god damn wire cutters
Who is the idiot that cut that man's fence?!
@@itzyahomeboy3545 I was ordered sir
Now that dog just ain't gonna hunt!
The veterans of Easy Company hated Sobel, but they credited him with making their unit as effective as it was. Putting him in charge of a training unit was an elegant solution.
Not sure about "elegant" but it was the proper thing to do. Some people are better at teaching and training then they are at commanding combat troops in the field.
"Kicked up stairs" is not elegant, and far from complimentary.
Sobel was unnecessarily abusive . I don't think that's good leadership.
@@tommyhaynes9157 100% agree.
@@willerwin3201 100% disagree, all these guys were conscripts are reading up on the real life side of things it has seemed he trained his men exceptionally well.
Small thing, but the choice of the chair for Sobol to sit in is perfect. He looks small.
Even the lamp behind him. It's big enough to light a stadium.
@Cam Robertson it was a straight jacket of a chair. . .he was boxed in with sink towering over him
@@capnskiddies Yet that lamp also kept him in the dark. 1:41 That lamp lights everything around it except him. There's more light lighting up the other side of his face, but no light there other than the fire.
Shor from a down angle too.
This is a golden ticket, he avoids combat, gets a pretty easy job doing something he's good at, at least keeps his rank if not gets a promotion
He'd later try to kill himself, leaving him blind and eventually dying of malnutrition. Not saying this had anything to do with that but ... not a happy camper.
@@d-logan5280 From reading about his life during and after the war all I got was he genuinely was a very petty person all his life right up to very end. RIP i guess 😒
@@d-logan5280 Man had a sad ending, didn’t deserved to die in the VA due to malnutrition and didn’t even get military honors.
Best thing that happened to him. He would have be fragged by his own men. Then they could go onto win the war
@@karpasos People who commit or even attempt suicide should not be honored. It is the most selfish act one can commit and shows that they can't hack it. And don't @me about depression...it is still a lazy way to overcome anything.
Right when Sobel stated that "the rest are good men, I can work with them" it was game over. He's insinuating that they were bad men and he didn't take responsibility. It's all the Colonel needed to hear.
I think the Colonel already made up his mind before the talk, he may have just wanted to give Sobel the chance to explain it from his side and save face. When all NCO's from your company step down in unison something must have gone terribly wrong.
Also i love how the Colonel solved this dilemma.. removing a bad field commander who has lost the trust of his men by promoting him to a position where he can't do damage.
@@FPAlpha Yeah that makes sense too. What I would give to be a fly on the wall at the meeting in real life!
@@FPAlpha I would love to watch Sobel deny a pass to photographer at paratrooper school because "you can't film Nazis with this rusty lense"
@jeff lockaby 😂
@@FPAlpha Not sure what happened to Sobel, but today and in much of the past 60 years, to be relieved of command on the eve of combat would have pretty much been the death knell of a career. Officially it's a transfer, but any other senior officer reviewing his file would see this transfer as a CO not have faith in a field officer to lead men into combat.
When the Colonel pours you a drink, it is never a good sign!!
And when the Lieutenant offers you a cigarette, well...
Drink...don't think😆🤣
Its medicinal at that point.
@@takeusernname
Damn, you beat me to it.
Nope.
I’ll never forget the first time I saw this scene.The way Sobel says, “I’m losing Easy Company ?” Has a lot of weight to it. Awesome scene, great acting.
Schwimmer had to play his part with a huge curse, that he would not enjoy the commeraderie of the other actors during the movie, and for the fact that he did this and still did a fantastic job, hat's off to him!
The fact that Meehan was already named as replacement commander of Easy before Sobel even left the room also says a lot.
I think I read somewhere that no Easy company member went to Sobel's funeral. That means he was hated by everyone from Easy companmy even many years after world war 2. And most likely Sobel hated Easy company for the rest of his life as well.
TBF I think this one's just military chain of command rather than any comment on how eager they were to get rid of Sobel (not that they weren't necessarily eager to get rid of Sobel) -- you need a clear line of succession regardless of whether the CO's a prick just so everyone knows who's in charge if anything happens to the guy at the top (such as them getting shot in battle), and Meehan is simply the next ranking officer in the company.
@@cyberperson53 Indeed. The replacement with the most senior subordinate is automatic.
Meehan is just next in line
The One Where Ross Loses Easy Company
They were only on a break.
This made me laugh more than it should've.
Lmfao
No one told him life was gonna be this way.
unsexynstupid When he was Ross, he only inspired the urge to punch him out. Now, it’s time for some “friendly fire.”
"You salute the rank, not the man, Sobel"
Loved that part
and as a superior officer, you are required to return every salute that you receive.
@@andyalford7487 exactly.
@@andyalford7487 as far as i know you are not supposed to salute while being in a driving car.
So in this car scene atleat he did nothing wrong
@@JustAPintOfMilk In the "we salute the rank" scene Winters is sitting in a vehicle with the engine off and Sobel walks past. A salute would be required.
This scene is reminiscent of something from, “The Godfather” with the dark lighting, the alcohol, and an offer that you can’t refuse.
Michael Corleone served in the US Army Or Marine Corps during WW2
Swimmers line” Im losing Easy Company “ …the look in his eyes when he said that then after drives past Winters ..what a fucking performance
No wordless gesture ever spoke louder than when the aide opens the door at 2:18.
Your services are no longer required here LMAO
Didn’t even get to finish his drink
@@jonnybirchyboy1560 it was probably the good stuff too.
Yeah, now get your ass out of here.
2:18 🚪
Colonel Sink is being VERY smart here.... When Sink saw that many of Sobel's NCO wanted to resign. He realized there was a big problem (Sure he made a big scene with them but that had to be done it is the military after all).
He decided to award Sobel by transferring him to a jump school and removing him from Easy Company in the process.
you can't disrespect the chain of command regardless of the situation. One NCO became a private, another got booted out of the paratroopers and the others he couldn't bother to do anything about because they were irreplaceable. That was as far as Sink could go. had Sobel killed someone or caused injury and harm ,yes he would have drummed him out altogether.
so insightful!
All hail captain obvious.
@@SantomPh You can replace officers.
You can't replace NCOs.
Officers are the electrical components. They make the machine move.
But NCOs are the screws, nails, and rivets that hold it all together.
@@SantomPh but Sink failed to act till they did this. by reports he should have seen the growing issue. they fact he didn't means HE FAILED
This mini-series is chock full of one great scene after the other. Characters, writing, acting, scenery . . . all spot on.
The "Band Of Brothers" book portrays Sobel as basically a dedicated officer who tried his best, the best way he knew how...but the best way he knew how sucked, although in many respects, his conduct as the CO and the way he dealt with his men really wasn't too far from the norm in the 1940s.
The account of Sobel's performance (or lack thereof) culled from the recollections of the original Easy Company "Taccoa" men is riddled with contradictions; one moment, he's a bombastic, incompetent martinet who couldn't organize a trip to the bathroom to take a piss, and a demanding, stern, but fully capable training officer in another. The consensus is that for better or worse, his training methods turned Easy Company into a fit, well-prepared, cohesive, and all-around combat-effective group. At one point it's mentioned that the entire company was forced to do their annual Physical Fitness Test *twice,* the second time while under direct observation of regimental officers; it turns out that their original PFT scores were so uniformly and astonishingly high that the commanders suspected they were bogus.
It was as if nobody could make up their mind whether they respected him, or hated his guts. But they all seemed to agree that Sobel's training made them an outstanding group of warriors, and was reflected in how well they fought. In fairness, Sobel wasn't an entirely inept and incapable officer; he just wasn't the kind of officer he desperately aspired to be.
Alas, it doesn't end their. After the war Sobel transitioned back to civilian life, got married, had kids, and built up a pretty good white-collar career. Still, he was depressed and bitter, presumably because he felt humiliated over losing his company due to a de facto mutiny by his NCOs, and the fact that instead of leading fighting men in combat, he was teachers doctors and priests how to jump out of a perfectly good plane.
Later on, in an incident that would be hilarious if it was made up, but was instead terrible and sad because it wasn't, Sobel attempted suicide by shooting himself in the head; he lived, but the bullet wrecked his optical nerves, leaving him blinded for the rest of his life. He wasn't invited to Easy's first of many large-scale reunions, but his son crashed it unannounced. While there, he mentioned how his that both and his father were saddened over the snub; I think he may have even asked them collectively to explain what he did that made him so a bad guy as to be forgotten or excluded.
I'd say his portrayal in the "Band Of Brothers" mini-series may not have been unfair, but perhaps a bit one-sided for the sake of dramatic/narrative effect and expedience. Sobel isn't alone in that regard.
Lt. Norman Dike was by no means an inspired, brilliant leader; his performance as a small-unit leader was half-stepping and unimpressive to say the least. However, prior to ending up with Easy Company, he took part in the D-Day invasion (the "BOB" series gave me the impression they just took him from behind a desk somewhere, trucked him out to the field, and dumped him on Easy) and won a Bronze Star by cobbling together a couple of platoons consisting of displaced stragglers from a number of units that got scattered in the initial drop, and organized the defense of a critical crossroads along the Allied axis of advance which successfully halted the efforts of a couple of Wehrmacht units to seize it.
Also: while his leadership (or lack thereof) certainly botched much of the initial attack on Foy, the depiction of him as having fallen apart into some sort of catatonic state is by some accounts incorrect. The mini-series makes it look like he just cracked under pressure and "froze," but some Easy Company troopers who followed him in that morning have said he froze after catching a rather large chunk of shrapnel in his shoulder.
I love this series but highly disturbed a year ago when I learned Stephen Ambrose is an unapologetic plagiarist, makes you unable to trust ANYTHING he wrote.
Thank you for your comments. They illustrate that history is very subjective. I recently reconnected with someone I served with over 40 years ago. Our recollection of events and people often aligns perfectly but I'd say at least 1/3 of the time it is completely different. Sometimes this is a matter of personal perspective, but other times it's because he or I knew something then that the other did not, that explains someone's motives or actions.
My Basic Training instructor was a psychopath with a violent temper, but he knew how to teach young men to wear the uniform. He was removed after throwing a stapler at one of my guys. Not for attacking the man, but for damaging the wall locker behind him when it missed.
Now that I'm a lot older, I think it's strange that the psychologists in charge of Air Force Basic training put such deranged people in charge of the recruits still.
Hey, everybody has mixed feelings with that one dickknob boss. Either way, Winters' approach was pretty much the best way to deal with that noise. Salute the rank, not the man. You're a team at the end of the day, but Sobel ultimately didn't see it that way.
With your point with dike. What I can deduce is that he was a shell of the man he used to ve like buck compton. Seeing your friend die or get injured in front of you, 24/7 shelling, and other horrors of war can break any man. The only question is when will anyone break.
I've seen lots of leaders like this, incredibly book smart, but without a lick of common sense. Sobel had no clue that he was going over the line on his harshness. You can't just arbitrarily punish a group like that all the time.
ffjsb Clearly he wanted the army to become the Marines
Uh, NO.
haha, yeah seems very Marine-ish, reminds me of life on 29 palms.
I can tell you it's not unique to the Marines, every branch has their share of moron officers. I have had some great CO's, one of the best ones was a Ranger, about 6'3, but looked like Opie on steroids...
is Opie that dog from garfield comics>
Sobel should have considered himself lucky since Meehan's plane was a total loss. Had Sobel not been reassigned and survived his jump things might have gone awry as his navigational skills were severely lacking.
He probably would've wound up a POW and given his Jewish background, he would have been sent to a concentration camp
Unlikely. Think of it as Sobel being reassigned that got Meehan killed.
@matrix49A + His family avoided him too. He certainly didn't deserve such a fate.
The real Sobel did actually jump in to Normandy, just not with Easy Company.
@@Subcomandante73 into*
Thank goodness the full bird figured out Sobel would be a disaster in battle.
Took him long enough.
he knew. He wouldn't miss Sobel's war game performances. he's just looking for a good timing.
"The war effort needs you elsewhere. Like selling shoes at Sears."
You know the meeting is over when the ADC opens the door lol!
We don't want you to go away mad, son. Just go away.
ADC = Aide-de-camp?
It was Lieutenant Colonel Robert Strayer. Battalion commander at the time.
Asshole Sobel woulda got fragged on the first day of combat
Didn't even get to finish his drink.
The hatred he showed for Winters (trying to have him court martialed being only the most obvious example) shows exactly how petty Sobel really was, not a good trait for either a leader or a manager. Incredible jealousy and willingness to break the rules to pursue it even at the detriment of the objective.
Rolf Hartmann l
I do not believe he thought Winters would elect for courts martial. His death of a thousand cuts strategy, by trying to get Winters to accept non-judicial punishment was meant to keep his actions from being noticed by upper echelon brass. Winters decision to elect the courts martial prevented him from doing that, and brought the affair to the attention of the ranking officer. His petty nature was revealed when the trial showed no evidence of improper conduct on Winters part. Sobel effectively removed himself from his position.
Winters insisted on the court martial. Sobel was just playing fuck-fuck games up to that point.
Like the rest said, Sobel never intended for court-martial. He was expecting Winter to take punishment is after all its just weekend pass revoke. So he can make Winter look bad, The whole thing backfire when Winter call his bluff by accepting court martial.
A true leader wants all the people in his team to succeed. He encourages talented team members to rise. If he's trying to sabotage the career of one of his best just to save his own career and sooth his ego that is just one of the worst betrayals a leader can make.
Winters always understood leadership was a duty to his people and the mission. Sobel thought his people should serve him.
See how Sobel asked who was replacing him. It shows how vindictive Sobel was to winters. He hated the fact that winters could take command easy and you can see some relief when he hears Mehann taking over. But he is still dejected.
3:37 Major Winter made Captain Sobel salute.
He saluted the rank (Captain), not the man (Sobel).
A man like that can never be portrayed fairly. Many of the men of Easy Company said they only survived due to the training they received under his command. Sobel was charged with training a huge bunch of guys for a task that had never been done before. These were the first US paratroopers. Winters did not like him. That is no secret. But Herbert Sobel played a big part in the success of the 101st airborne and no doubt about it. This was well before Stanley Kubric and Lee Ermey. Nuff S.
No one disagrees with that. But it's definitely more interesting that Sobel was all that and a world class putz simultaneously.
@@mortalclown3812 A world class trainer, but not a "leader".
Despite him getting moved to trainer role and later S4(logistics) He still jumped into Normandy as apart of the headquarters company, got his combat infantryman badge and Bronze star....thats a better ribbon stack than most soldiers. Making him a part of the regimental staff was a compromise....he didn't do anything wrong by being a hardass but they needed to move him out of a combat role
@@Keepgoing42 👍👍👍👍👍👍
Reminds me of Corporal Himellschtoss in All Quiet on the Western Front. The German troops all hated him in training camp, but the protagonist said that training taught them to be resourceful, vengeful and tough. And a good thing too, cos that was exactly what they needed to survive in the trenches.
Managers are respected for their position; leaders are respected for their character. Sobel was a great manager, but he never earned the respect of a leader because he was -- in the vernacular of the military -- a "Bravo Foxtrot" who would blame everyone around him for his own mistakes instead of just owning up to them. As a vet, I can say there is a big difference between "it was so-and-so's fault, sir" and "it was my fault, sir, not that of my men."
Yeah...that sort of thing will definitely lose you some measure of esteem from your superiors **and** your subordinates.
In the military, when a ranking SNCO or officer calls a junior leader onto the carpet and demands to know "HOW THE FUCK DID THIS HAPPEN?!?!" they don't actually give a damn about the identity of whatever lower-ranking snuffy (or group of same) directly screwed it up. It doesn't really matter who did or didn't do what, since the very fact that it happened invariably amounts to a lapse in competent leadership on the part of the guy in charge.
Any attempt to try and throw one or more of their men under a bus to cover their own asses just makes the senior guy look like a weasal who doesn't quite get what the essence of effective leadership is supposed to be.
As my Dad (who spent 31 years in the Army, starting as a Private, leaving as a Lieutenant Colonel) explained to me oh so long ago during my time in: *"You can delegate authority, but not responsibility."*
Some people think that's a bit harsh-- and it kinda is-- but a leader who knows that of his men drop the ball, he can just throw blame on them and carry on. On the other hand, if a leader expects to be held to account for every screw-up, gaffe, or bonehead play that happens within the scope of their responsibility, they're going to be extra vigilant in making sure it doesn't happen in the first place.
Hence the all-encompassing justification for any order or set of orders I must've heard a few thousand times when I was in the Corps, with minor variations:
*"I don't give a shit if you like it or don't like it or see the point of it. It's gonna be **MY** ass the Old Man chews off if we don't make it happen...NOT yours. So how about you just shut the hell up and do what I told you to do, goddammit!!"
I believe “Blue Falcon” is the term - “buddy f***er”.
It's Blue Falcon...never in my time in 10yrs did I hear Bravo Fox lol
@@robwest9592 Are you implying that the vet BloodofPatriots is lying? And I just gave him a "like" too, damn SOB
@@gregrock7451 "You can delegate authority but not responsibility".
Contrast that with those in a position of power that want all of the authority and take none of the responsibility. Think of those in power that talk about how much power they have, but have also publicly said they take no responsibility.
Don't think I ever noticed Winters saluting Sobel as he goes by in the jeep when watching the full episode. Makes the scene in the last episode where the two are in reversed positions that much sweeter. Always did love Winters "Captain Sobel, we salute the rank not the man" and then that little exchange of looks between him and Dixon after Sobel has saluted. This just makes that scene all the sweeter.
What makes it better is that Winters actually did say that to him in real life
Not sure how it is in the US, but usually you dont salute from a driving vehicle. (atleast that is what i can remember)
@@JustAPintOfMilk All I can add to that is, back in the 70s or early 80s, we were driving through the US Air Force Academy. My mother was driving. The sun was in her eyes, so she put her hand up to shade it. A car full of cadets, going the opposite direction, saluted her.
@@JustAPintOfMilk - most of the time, it's regarded as saluting the vehicle, especially if it flies an officer's flag. An open jeep, driving slowly by? Sobel insulted Winter.
Sobel’s personal issues are typical of when someone simply pushes the boundaries of their authority. It will break and you will be exposed for your weaknesses. It happens in the workplace all the time.
2:04 He just went from Captain Sobel to Ross Geller.
ha
Let's not forget that Ross was banging Rachel extensively.
Howell which says a lot about Rachel's judgement and taste in men...😁
thurston howell we can all only dream of that...
We had excellent instructors during my service, 30 years ago. All but one lieutenant, played too badass and hard man. During winter training (3 weeks, average temp -20celcius) he went down. When we waited for the last 7 man unit to come to gathering on skis trough the forest, with Lt Colonel and Major there watching. A buddy of mine wore the lieutenants backpack on his chest. Must have been mild hypothermia...bad fluid balance. Very important in swedish winter to get enough fluid down. All units watching and i remembered to feel a little sorry for the man. Maybe he learned...
David Schwimmer is such an amazing actor from a lovable character from a sitcom to a jealous annoying man with both performances on point cheers to the guy.
He was actually playing ross in the military.jealous and annoying less lovable compared to ross and under heavy pressure,so bitter😂😂😂
Jimmy Falon showing up at Bastogn was a surprise too.
Schwimmer nails this. Underrated actor.
The door opening is the most brutal part. And Sobel asks for permission to speak AFTER the door is opened. The meeting's over, the decision is made, he is finished, he KNOWS he's finished, and yet he sort of begs. It's a testament to David Schwimmer that even after making us hate him so much, you actually feel awful for Sobel at this moment.
Reminds me of how Joachim Phoenix portrayed Comodus in the movie Gladiator. A bad guy sure, but a tragic figure. You don't know whether to hate him or feel sorry for him.
As hard as I try, I couldn’t find any sympathy for him in this moment. The way he commanded his troops, him being relieved was him getting off easy. He deserved worse. At least his troops gave him credit in the end though. A shame the way his life ended too.
The thing about Sobel is that his pettiness made him an excellent _training_ officer. There’s a degree of sadism that actually improves training as E Company’s results demonstrate, and he probably would have been decent in higher command-just look at FADM Ernest King, who could be as petty and judgmental as any chickenshit infantry officer. Sobel was useless in the field in large part because of those qualities; the ability to be a total jerk is of use in training or in a management position, but it is of severe detriment when you’re actually trying to accomplish things on the ground. Sobel couldn’t turn off “training mode,” and it’s probable he didn’t even know he needed to. To my knowledge, Sobel never understood why he was so hated by his men, and I would imagine that’s part of what drove him to attempt suicide later in life.
The man had a decisive hand in training what was undoubtedly one of the finest military formation in the US military. Captain Sobel had every reason to be proud of that.
So Winters would testify.
The trouble is that testimony is not reliable. Winters is too good of a man to tell the truth, which is that Sobel was a disaster and if Easy Company wasn't insulated from his leadership by the highly competent Platoon leaders, things likely would have went to hell a lot sooner than that.
It's not the CO of a company's job to band his command together in hatred of him out of sheer survival instinct. Sobel was not actually preparing his men for war. Sobel was training his company to be parade soldiers. Sobel was really picky about making his company look good when being reviewed in formation. He was instilling the outward appearance of fighting men in his company, and making presentation to leaders to stupid to know the difference between looks good on parade and looks good in the field. He was in fact in over his head.
The only reason Easy Company could perform in the field was due to the leadership of the Platoon commanders. We see this suggested in several scenes, such as the night march were Winters easily deflects the men's dissatisfaction with their Company CO while still maintaining military bearing.
And the trouble is that Sobel knew that he was incompetent and that his junior officers were better leaders than he was. He was suffering from the fact he knew he was an imposter, and all his actions were to try to cover up that.
@@celebrim1 Sobel was a combat veteran and leader at Normandy. He eventually achieved the rank of lieutenant colonel. He wasn't especially liked by the men of Easy Company, but his training of this unit of the 2nd battalion, 506th regiment of the 101st Airborne Division led to one of the leading US units in the Second World War. Many of the officers of that unit credit him as such.
Against that we have your opinion. Thanks for sharing your input, such as it is.
@@DrCruel I'm not offering my opinion, but the consensus of opinion from the men of that unit. While it is true that Sobel had a lasting impact on 101st Easy Company, it was by unifying them together in absolute hatred of their CO. As Winter's put it, "[His] desire to lead by fear rather than example.. He'll get us all killed." Again, it's not the CO of a company's job to band his command together in hatred of him out of sheer survival instinct. This is behavior that is suited only to the first few weeks of boot camp when you are trying to weed out the uncommitted and break down civilian thinking. But Sobel did it not as some calculated affectation, but because he really was a petty sadist.
It's like you're always stuck in second gear
When it hasn't been your day, your week, your month
Or even your year....
ha cute
The men of Easy were there for each other.
I'll be there for youuuuuuu
Sneaky!
Or even your war!!!
When I was in the ARMY, 91BRAVO, I had NCOs and OFFICERS that had no business in leadership power, But I had NCOs and OFFICERS I would follow down a barrel of a cannon
I'm assuming you mean you were a combat medic? Or was that 91A? At any rate, I too was in the army. 95B, stationed at Ft Bliss. And I agree. Some were nothing but spoiled brats and no leadership abilities at all. Others, I would run into a burning building with. One Capt in my unit was prior enlisted. So he knew how to lead and be a real soldier. We became very good friends and we spent alot of time at the base gun club. As well as being invited to his home for Thanksgiving and other special holidays. He was a great leader and soldier. Some are good...some are bad. Hell I've served with women I would rather go into combat with than some of the men!?!?
@@idunno4891 91B is a wheeled vehicle mechanic. Combat medic is 68W. My unit recently changed leadership (CPT. & 1SG) & boy are these new leaders on top of everything for us. They are always making sure we get things done, talking to us as friends not bosses, & showing care. It really reflected the leadership we had before..
@@theboingster6947 hahaha. When I was on active duty, 91B was a medic 🤣
@@idunno4891 how times have changed haha.
Amen. And I will remember those officers and NCO’s (Major Babyak, TSgt Watson) for the rest of my life.
I always loved the way the major opens the door after sink drops the bombshell, basically saying "get the f outta here", without saying anything 😆
This was without doubt schwimmers zenith of his acting career to date , never rated him before this but it's a role he can be rightly proud of .
The story od Captain Herbert Sobel is a very complicated one. I've read the book. I've watched mini-series.... probably 25 times. I'm basically obsessed with it. LOL I am also reading as many of these Soldiers' individual books as I can. Some hard-cover. Some on audio. I really like to listen to them as I drive. I can back it up if I lose concentration, due to traffic patterns, or whatever.
Recently, I have listened to "We Who Are Alive and Remain," by Marcus Brotherton. In fact, I just listened to it twice in a row. Fascinating stories about many of the other soldiers from Easy, who were not as recognized in the book or mini-series. Or who did not write their own books, as some of the others did. Stories about their lives before the war. About growing up. Stories from during the War, and then what Life was like for them, in coming home. Really, really good stuff. And a LOT of information regarding Herbert Sobel, and his Life. A truly tragic tale. And I couldn't stand the guy, after the mini-series. But after studying up more on this situation, I realize that I just don't know. I wasn't there. And I really think there are multiple sides to this story - and to this Man's Life. Sad. It made me think - a lot. Check it out, if you are really interested.
David Schwimmer did such a good job with this role. His casting was awesome. He totally looks like the actual historical CO too
Interesting that after breaking the bad news the door to the room is opened for Sobel to leave almost immediately. I think it show's how well the scene was written as it adds to the impact on Sobel.
This reminds me of General George B. McClellan. He was a great administrator, and greatly improved and reorganized the Army of the Potomac, but proved too cautious in actual combat.
Terrific comparison - I think GM had that George Armstrong Custer thing - ego, flamboyance, etc - that Sobel didn't, but the inadequacies and failure to see his part in it was spot on.
I thought of McClellan, too!
@@mortalclown3812 Custer was actually good at his job. During the US Civil War at least. After the war he failed to adapt and his ego got the better of him. sm
McClellan was too arrogant and cautious. He didn't even see Lincoln when the President came to visit his house and even ran against him in the 1864 election. He ran the disastrous Overland Campaign into the ground when Richmond was in sight. He was definitely not missed at the major battles of Gettysburg and Vicksburg.
I don't believe that comparison is particularly appropriate - McClellan was beloved by the troops, he just didn't have what it took to lead an army on the battlefield.
That action of reassignment him probably saves his life.
And the lives of his own men considering his poor leadership
It did the lead aircraft carrying headquarters platoon was shot down on dday
It literally saved his life the plane he was supposed to be on was shot down
Judging by events, Sink just saved Sobel's life here. I wonder if Sobel ever thought about that.....
From the sounds of it Sobel dying in France may have been a mercy compared to his actual death
He more than like drank himself to death
Click on the story titled, simply "Herbert Sobel".There is so much more to his story. Amazing.
Sobel, the most unfortunate person ever. He survived a suicide attempt in 1970 that left him blind. He went on to live for another 14 years and was found dead basically from starvation.
When the cause of death of a soldier is listed as neglect and malnutrition in a VA home - that's sheer horror.
Schwimmer plays this role perfectly, particularly with the stammer. Telegraphing his unease. Perfect.
David Schwimmer was perfect in this role I hated his guts lol
He nailed it
I really must commend Colonel Sink in his decision to relieve Sobel of his command. After dealing with all of his NCO’s signing a vote of no confidence in their leader, which is considered and act of mutiny, he had to make a decision. And it worked.
I'm sure Col. Sink got a lot of information from the "referees" about Sobel's ability to command his troops in combat situations that lead to his decision to relieve him of command of Easy Company. The sergeants' resignments were another factor. Sink knew how important the NCOs were to the company.
@@johnleeson6946 frankly Sink should have acted sooner
I have seen a interview with the late Maj. Winters, I think done not to terribly long before his death death that's pretty damning of Sobel, and I'd be inclined to take his word for it over other anecdotes.
@John Deez I was unaware of that. If so, it's too damn bad to leave that way, especially since he was held in high regard. Paul Fussell, in his great book, "Wartime", described the necessity of being in a "chickenshit" organization like the Army to go and fight the biggest chickenshit of all: fascism. His humility and love for the country were such commanding traits. He complained about the virtual permanence of "SNAFU", but I'm pretty sure he didn't say things about individuals. It impressed me then and even more so now. RIP, Capt. Fussell. (Btw, if anyone's interested, he also wrote one of the funniest books I've ever read: "Class" circa '76. It's about class distinction in America and is even relevant now.)
@Dodadeus he was a dick. Nobody remembered him, nobody cared about him. You don't get that way in a vacuum
@James Nuttes Well, provide proof of your claims.
@@mortalclown3812 Don't take his word for it. I've never heard anything disparaging of Winters. You can always find people who dislike anyone.
What he got was he shot himself in the head but failed to kill himself. He blinded himself in both eyes and died of malnutrition in a veterans home.
The door is open. YOU'RE DISMISSED!!
One of my favorite moments in the whole series.
Col. Sink was saddled with an extremely difficult situation, which he read well and resolved just as well. He was as harsh as he needed to be with his mutinous NCOs without depriving Easy Company of capable leadership at a time when it was most desperately needed.
As for Sobel: Sink clearly knew that whatever else he thought of Capt. Sobel as an officer and a leader, he was simply not fit to command troops in the field...certainly not during the mission and under the circumstances that lay ahead. I can only assume he also figured that sparing Sobel's feel-feels wasn't worth killing a couple dozen elite paratroopers; I'm guessing he would have been on the plane Lt. Meehan was in during the drop, and thus Sink spared Sobel's life as well. Plus, Sink couched his decision in a way that credited his skills as a training officer without disparaging his obvious deficiencies as a combat leader...a reward that recognized the former, not a reprimand for the latter.
I read somewhere that Col. Sink literally broke down and cried when he received word after the end of the war that the 501st PIR was set to be deactivated. That's not hard to believe; I get the sense that Sink was not just a commander, but a father figure to his men, especially the original "Toccoa Men" who were with Easy Co. from Day #1.
Colonel Sink turned down two promotions throughout the war in order to stay with the 506th (affectionately nicknamed the Five-Oh-Sink) regiment through the end. The only regimental commander in the 101st to do so.
@@kyungruscitti7253 2 promotions to be a general?
@@rogoznicafc9672 Correct. Robert Sink would eventually go on to be promoted after World War 2 ended and retired as a Lieutenant General.
@@rogoznicafc9672 The promotions Colonel Sink turned down during the war were to become a staff officer at the Division or Corps headquarters. He felt he owed it to his regiment and men to maintain command continuity. Similar to the dilemma Richard Winters faced when he was promoted from Easy Company Commander to Executive Officer of 2nd Battalion.
Love that the next time they meet, _Sobel_ has to Salute *Winters* and to add to the Just Desserts, Winters had to point out you salute the *Rank* not the *Man*
Winters was basically telling Sobel to get his priorities straight.
This was a good reflection upon the command. Everyone has their value. We always believe we can choose our team. However, life deals us a hand we must play...like it or not. Sobol excelled as a training commander. His style would have been disastrous, in combat.
I still find it hard to believe he died from severe malnutrition in a VA assisted living facility. In my book, he's still a hero just as anyone else that was a part of ww2
it doesn't necessarily mean he was starved to death, he did have a failed suicide attempt, and at the point where he was dying in the VA he could have had other problems and his body was just shutting down. I agree though, it's not for us to judge the man, none of us knew him.
He was a Hero, no doubt.
A great Trainer saves lives.
Albeit in the future.
He attempted suicide and failed. Shot himself in the head and made himself blind. Lol. He was so incompetent he couldn’t even kill himself!
An look what your country has become! Storm trooper police that beat soliders as well as civilians on a whim. Banks and corporate business with politicians in their pockets, if your poor not white or get sick America is a living hell. The generation that fought the war and died to defeat tyranny would never believe it ended. America is a lost nation.
I took it to mean that he had by then required a feeding tube and all of that and had been taken off of it and given hospice care until death. My stepmother went out like that. stopped the feeding tube and just kept her comfortable with painkillers and sedatives until her body gave out. Her choice.
“I will not follow that man into combat.”
Sobel was the right man to train them. Winters was the right man to lead them in combat.
You can get superb training without ass-hole-ery... Sobel's non coms ID'ed his flaws and couldn't live with them.
Remarkable history. Remarkable acting. Top grade in every way.
As neat a dismissal as ever I witnessed.
When I was in the army in the early eighties we had a first sergeant that served in World War II Korea and Vietnam, He was a very decorated man, We had a dress greens inspection our captain showed up and Only had 2 ribbons on his uniform, The 1st sergeant looked at his uniform and laughed, The captain got pissed, And threatened 1st sergeant with disciplinary action, The 1st sergeant looked at him and said I have less than 2 months until I retire so do your worst..lol
When I was in the Air Force, there was an E-7 getting ready to retire and had moved into the barracks since he was so close to separation. I can't remember exactly what happened, but there was something that happened that prompted the Captain to pin responsibility on him, so the Capt issued a Letter of Reprimand on him. A senior NCO with less that 3 months getting one of those. It seems so petty, but I don't know the whole story. Maybe it was the best way for him to show giving disciplinary action and not having it impact someone else who was going to remain on active duty for a while.
I was standing an admiral's inspection when he came across an E-5 Gunnersmate. The E-5 was a Vietnam vet and heavily decorated (he'd had two gunboats shot out from under him). The admiral asked the Captain if those decorations were real? The Captain affirmed it. The admiral said "And he's just an E-5?" The guy was promoted in the next go around.
@Gert Bonk assuming he’s 18 in 1945, he’d be 53 in 1980. Plenty of old NCOs around that age.
Sadly if that 1SG tried that in today’s Army they would probably court-martial him, or even worse make him do a training on pronouns and inclusion and shit 🤦🏽♂️
And that First Shirt probably had a HELL of a lot more friends on call than the captain did!
This actually saved Sobels life. His replacement Meehan was killed when his aircraft was shot down on D-day.
Good point.
and he would be behind enemy lines with a bunch of NCOs who hate his guts. I don't think i need to finish that sentence
@@DeadManWalking-ym1oo His ego over the lives of his children?
@@DeadManWalking-ym1oo So you’re saying that because he had bad characteristics it’s better that he should have been killed in action than his children being born?
History doesn't follow a set script. You can't change one thing and have everything else stay exactly the same. Everything that follows is affected (ala the Butterfly Effect). There's no guarantee that that particular plane would have been shot down. It would have taken off at a different time, flown a slightly different route, etc.
He is definitely one of the best trainer out there that really helped the paratroopers survived the war. However, he wasn't a "leader".
Sobel wanted to be everything that Winters became. It's tragic that someone who has the desire and dedication can't be what they want. Sobel is a tragic figure.
Kudos to Colonel Sink. He walloped the NCOs for their mutiny, BUT he was a good enough man to know that Sobel needed to be replaced and did so.
@Mark Grudt lol you replied to a comment that was made 8 years ago, @Darth Belal could be dead by now.
The real Sobel wasn't a tragic figure. Winters was a good field officer but not so great as a training officer. Sobel was the opposite.
Together, they made Easy company what it was.
You cant deny Sobels training of easy company. He may have been petty but he made some hearty men. Hard training prepared them for the worst
He can't read a damn map. If he can't read a map, how the hell would he know how to set up an ambush or defensive position? He rode the coattails of the other officers and nco's.
@Stuart Coker Odd. Normally that's the LT and the Plt Sgt is the one fixing the situation..
He was a fine administrator, but a walking disaster as a leader.
Sobel would have been an unwitting asset to the Axis.
You can bet they were individually questioned, where the dumbass details were gathered for the brass
Herbert Sobel had spent a great deal of time training men before and during the war... he was very good at that... he made Easy Company the unit they were. He just wasn’t the man to lead them in combat...
Can you imagine being a chaplain or a doctor going through jump training with Sobel? "Why is this chaplain's canteen not full?! You drank from your canteen, didn't you!"
Chaplains, doctors would usually match or surpass Captn Sobels rank, and not be in Sobels chain of command so be largely immune from his pettiness.
The bowl is missing Holy Water? Weekend pass revoked !
@@tomelder2358 Some would have told him to go pound sand or worse. You can be a great trainer while still treating the troops right. Not rocket science. Also less work to treat people right, from personal experience.
One can be an outstanding trainer but that does NOT automatically mean he/she is an outstanding leader.
Herbert sobel did jump into Normandy but with another unit,
506th Regimental Staff.
The royal lancashire regiment
@Dark Light guy earned two bronze stars and then fought in korea, he was a dick but unfairly portrayed
Capodecamper well his portrayal in the series was based on what the men of Easy Company thought of his
@@Capodecamper
NOT according to his wiki page
"For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself." -Galatians 6:3 KJV
That was the most respectful demotion I've seen
...it's not a demotion...it's a transfer.
@@dclark142002 Sure, he stayed a captain, but it felt like a demotion to him
Not a demotion in rank, but in prestige.
@@VirtueCry That's called being 'passed over', not demotion.
There are commanders and then there are leaders. Sobel could command, but he couldn't lead.
Knew several of both types when I served.
Had a LT. that could quote you chapter and verse right down to the period at the end of the sentence. But he couldn't put that to practical use. Then we had one that understood that he needed us more than we needed him.
He knew that we knew what, when , and how and that berating us would do no good. The Skipper knew that there was a time to work and a time to play, but you made damn sure that the work portion was complete BEFORE you started to play. A little grab ass on the way back was fine, but do not go to far.
Actually that was a fair, respectable way to reassign assets. He should get the hint.
History is full of men who excelled at training soldiers but were lousy field officers. Sobel is an example of this.
Schwimmer does such a great role at sobel that you literally hate sobel when watching this series.
Man i used to wait like crazy for each episode...when internet was not a thing ..man this series got me through bad day during my college years.... Captain Winters u r the man 💪🙏
*Major
@@andymiller6661 my bad
Being good at training and being a good leader in the field can sometimes be two different things. In this case it was. Thankfully they found out before Easy had to go into battle.
They knew he'd get the men killed, so he sent him into training since he was a good trainer.
Good resolution by Sink. He knew something was wrong with Sobel's command, he wanted Sobel not to lose face by transferring him.
So many little thing in Band Of Brothers that you'd really appreciate.🙂
A man who could see everyone’s shortcomings except his own.
Elegant and to the point.
Good comment. We all have our blind spots that we fail to see, but are very evident to those who we associate with each day. Another thing that most of us don't deal with very well is then someone points out those blind spots and we get defensive, rather than learning from it.
I went through a similar situation in 2004 when I was training two classes to go to Iraq. My commander was a dick beyond belief, and I soon realized that he was treating the NCOs horribly, while trying to be buddies with the lower enlisted. Everyone cheered when they relieved him and put me in command. I'm not perfect, but I tried to help people. I get it when leaders inspect and pick out deficiencies, but finding something positive also works.
Thanks for your service Mr O'Neill, I'm a former infantryman. An 11B with the 7th ID at Fort Ord, California(back when there still WAS a Fort Ord). I know it's been 4 years but if you're still on UA-cam I'd like to pick your brain a little bit.
You there?
Thank-you for your service.
I love how he motions to his aide, who opens the door and....the discussion is over.
Herbert Sobel headed up a jump school in England and did jump into France but he worked logistics. After the war he became an accountant until recalled to duty for Korea. He stayed in earning the rank of Lieutenant colonel in the reserves. He was miserable towards the end of his life. One day he decided to put a bullet in his head. It went in side of his temple and out the other side severing his optic nerves leaving him blind. He starved to death in a VA home back in 1978 I believe. He deserved better if you ask me.
Agreed.
When your CO gives you a compliment followed by a drink, you take the compliment and pound the drink because he is about to remove the wind from your sails.
The hard and necessary training they received had less to do with Sobel’s ability and more to do with his need to dominate. It produced fit soldiers because of his ego.
It produce them
Such an amazing scene! Demoting someone without demoting them at the same time !
Winters really flipped the script on Sobel at the end of the war, “You salute the rank, not the man!” That was Winters’ mic drop moment with Sobel..
Even Winters said Soebel was a great Training officer. Winters credited Soebel for getting Easy Company ready for the horrors of war and had them in peak condition. Winters said he though the biggest problem with Soebel is that he grew up in Chicago and had no true experience in open country. Winters grew up on a farm in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, and knew his way around open country.
On one hand he didn't seem the most competent to be in the field and didn't have the respect of his men. On the other hand his harshness made Easy Company work together as team during training. He was a good trainer, not necessarily the best leader. I can imagine how much it hurt for him to train them to perfection only to find out he wasn't going to be commanding the unit.
M. Q.
Very true. Leadership is hard to cultivate. Its hard to find that balance of technical skill and natural ability to convince others to rally around you or turst you in life threatening situations.
M. Q. He continued to treat the men as boots he never changed with them and he never gave them the respect they earned right before his eyes. He was an asshole.
@Ronnie Bishop Exactly, you treat men that way when you are pushing boots. Not when you are polishing them up to follow you into combat.
However being an obnoxious unfair martinet is not a necessary part of being an effective trainer. There are plenty of tough but fair instructors that can get the same results without being a jerk about it.
There is a difference between training, and appication of training.
A few years ago, when they were here in the UK. I was lucky enough to talk a few of the guys who were still around. I asked about Sobel and how close the portrayal was. They said it was very. But, as others have pointed out, while he was an asshole, he united the unit into one with their training and hatred of him. When I asked if anyone had ever said that to him later the response was "he wanted nothing to do with us"
I used to teach computer classes and I had a few PowerPoint training sessions with military officers. One of them told me that when giving a presentation to the brass, the General had the clicker for when to move to the next slide, not the presenter. Kind of reminds of this scene.
Years before band of brothers was released I spoke to a veteran who claimed he was court martialed for mutiny because he and other member of their platoon tried to have their lieutenant removed, believing he would get them killed. They were found guilty but escaped punishment due to a legal technicality. I always believed that the truth was some one wanted to put the fear of god into them. The men were all transferred to different platoons and obviously, the man who told me the story survived.
This inadvertently saved his life, because he would have gotten shot down in the C-47 over the DZ on D-day if he stayed in command.
you know he did jump over Normandy with another unit?
@@rahulbond3m I think he means, he would have been in Lt Meehans plane.
He ended up attempting suicide in 1970 which left him blind (bullet to the head which went behind his eyes and severed his optic nerve) and needed care for the next 17 years til 1987 when he died of malnutrition so he didn't exactly end his life "lucky"
@degree7 how does it work?
@Degree7 More likely Sobel would have demanded the map and inadvertently flown them into the side of the Swiss Alps.
We can talk about Sobel a lot but Sink showed some real leadership here as well. Sobel was a good trainer-- but lacked as a combat commander. Everyone had to have some kind of purpose so shifting him to command a training school was smart leadership.
I feel like a lot of people miss the point of Colonel Sink's decision. At that point in time, it was customary for the commander of a company to be responsible for training them, presumably to get the men used to respecting their authority and to create continuity from training to the field. Sobel showed himself to be extremely capable at training his men, using techniques to shape his men into tough, hardened combat troops who could take anything thrown at them, while fostering solidarity and camaraderie between them. In the first episode, Nixon points out that Sobel is a genius at motivating his men by treating them so harshly that they will improve purely to spite him.
The qualities that made him an excellent boot camp trainer did not necessarily make him a good combat leader, so while he trained a fine company of soldiers, he was not well suited to lead them into combat. His tactics of pettiness and harshness that served him well in boot camp were detrimental once the troops were preparing to deploy. Colonel Sink recognized that while Sobel was stellar at training men, he was not suited to leading them, and moved him to a position where he could continue training troops while removing him from combat leadership.
Problems like this, where the methods for training troops and the methods for leading them are not always compatible, are part of the reason why troops today are not trained by their future commanding officers, but instead by specialized drill sergeants using techniques quite similar to Sobel's approach.
Great explanation 👍