The Herbert Sobel Debacle [Part 1] - The Transfer Was Just The Start (Band of Brothers/Easy Company)
Вставка
- Опубліковано 14 тра 2024
- When Captain Herbert Sobel got booted from Easy Company, everyone breathed a sigh of relief. But the ramifications of the transfer spread well beyond the Jump into Normandy.
Part 2 - • The Herbert Sobel Deba...
*There have been some comments regarding the photo of Sobel at the 2.12 mark. According to the Easy Company scrap book I have the photo is credited to him. He Retired a Lieutenant Colonel which is his rank in this photo. There can always be mistakes however so if anyone knows any more on this please let me know.
![The Herbert Sobel Debacle [Part 2] The Chain Reaction (Band of Brothers/Easy Company)](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/reCGMsxQLPA/mqdefault.jpg)
![The Herbert Sobel Debacle [Part 2] The Chain Reaction (Band of Brothers/Easy Company)](/img/tr.png)
Everyone keeps confusing a good drill sergeant for a good company commander. Sobel probably would have been a fine drill sergeant, but an officer is not a drill sergeant, that is the job of an experienced Noncom. The fact that Sobel and others in this comment section don’t understand that astounds me. Sobel had no business being in command and was rightfully relieved. A commander like him in the field would have gotten many men killed and would have led the company to ruin.
Thanks, I've been trying to explain exactly what you posted to BoB fanboys for the past 20 years. I'm a former Marine & my company commander in PI wouldn't be screaming at me like the DIs did. Both tours in Iraq, I barely saw my company co. But they were USMC officers & we knew they were making proper decisions. No doubt in our young minds.
I shudder when I think about Sobel's map reading problems. I wrote this same comment in another place. The landings were miles off, and elements of Easy were all over the place. There is no telling what would have happened if Sobel had attempted to figure out where he was. Don't even get me started on Brecourt Manor, had Sobel led that attack those big guns may still be firing!
You are spot on.
I waited a day to make this reply. I wanted to find the right words. Here is the issue. You are right about the Drill SGT. I recently learned that Ft Eustis recently brought back drill SGTs for their AIT students. ( I live near Ft Eustis). The problem is a Company Commander getting Troops ready for the rigors of Airborne warfare and a drill SGT are NOT mutually exclusive things. A very good friend has a daughter who is married to Lt Colonel currently stationed at HQ XVIII Airborne Corps. I had a chance to speak to this man last Christmas. Over a beer, we got on the subject of Capt Sobel. I am a magnet for these discussions because I grew up under the shadow of Currahee Mtn. This guy after a short pause started to tell me about an incident that happened to him a few years back when he was a Platoon Leader at Ft Campbell. What had happened was some of the men in the Battalion were not finishing physical conditioning as they should have. This has always been a common problem, but according to this guy, the higher-than-normal percentages were getting up to Division. An Officer was reassigned and a new Battalion CO was brought in. Then he went on to say one morning the Battalion CO and the Battalion SGT Maj were standing near where his company was assembled. He stood and watched his Company CO get screamed at so loud he could be heard 1/4 mile away. It was all about physical conditioning and it was going to improve. When it was over the Company CO told all his Officers you heard the man. After that, the Capt was around during all physical training. This Capt rode the Officers and the NCOs until the better results got back to Division. Then later that Capt made Major before their brigade deployed. Again I agree with you. Sobel was a petty martinet who most likely would have been a disaster as a combat Officer.
A Company commander should not be doing this sort of thing. If he wants to make the recruits miserable he tells his Sgts to do it, or ask his JOs to tell the Sgts to do it. His leadership was a real issue
Luz actually pulling that prank is honestly hilarious
This is ultimately the fault of Colenels Strayer and Sink. They knew they had an incompetent company commander, but it took a mutiny to get them to do what needed to be done. Good leaders don't have mutinies.
In the military crap rolls downhill, but accountability goes up the chain of command.
That's a valid argument. But if you look with clear eyes at our military, civil and corporation leadership in America, you will see that roughly 60% of these people are marginally competent. At least 20% of them are unsuited to their positions, and more or less incompetent. Leaders are extremely rare. Leaders who have the right intentions, the right ideas, the ability to put these into use, are almost non-existent. This is what made Dick Winters, and some of his company so exceptional.
@@TheChonaman - I agree. That is probably because in organizations like the ones you mention people get promoted to their level of incompetence. I think that is called the Peter Principle.
Problem was he created an incredible Company, the best in the regiment, maybe best in the Division. Add in that the Army was building up and Officers were in short supply.
@@Gabryal77 I think that idea is well represented in the film There is never any doubt cast upon Herb Sobel in terms of his organzanal, or training skill. In fact, he was given a new appointment, making the most of these skills. He was not demoted.
@@Gabryal77 Maybe, but he would have gotten them killed in combat. He did get them killed in a war game where he made a fatal blunder.
Had a similar incident at my unit when I first got in the army. We had this one CO who would just start screaming one liners from war movies during training exercises and kept us at the Company area well after 1800 most days even though we ran out of stuff to do by lunch time. The guys even called him Captain America, ala Generation Kill.
We all thought he was a terrible leader and would probably cause a lot of deaths during dpeloyment, both on our side and among the civilians in Afghanistan. I honestly believe even the company 1SG disliked the guy. Fortunately, a few months before deployment, we got a replacement CO who turned out to be an amazing leader and actually cared for the guys.
Captain Gold, wherever you are, thank you for your leadership. The dude is probably a Colonel by now as this was in 2010.
I hear you. I served under a few of those commanders. Always training to time, not the standard. There's nothing worse in a soldiers eyes than wasting their free time, just because you can. Being deployed myself several times, it's an incredibly stressful time, especially with all the additional training, and troops need some downtime to deal with it. If you show concern for your troops, they'll respond accordingly.
You were also a shit soldier
@@klungemagnet you're either a troll or you were another Sobel.
shut up boot
I never thought about it in this way, the transfer actually saved Sobel's life and tragically ended Lt Meehan's. The Universe moves in mysterious ways. Thank you for this video
I always wondered if this incident (the plane crash) affected Sobel more than anything else. Survivor’s guilt.
I always felt sorry for the doctors and chaplains of the 101st when they showed up for jump training after this episode.
But the probably survived because of Sobel's training.
I'm researching Sobel's time between the parachute school and then transfer to supply officer. There isn't a lot written about it.
The picture of Sobel, doesn’t look like other historical pics?
Those doctors and chaplains would likely have outranked him though
It was after WW2 when he was a Lieutenant Colonel.
I met officers like Sobel when I was in the Navy. They usually got theirs in the end - from other officers. The good ones would eventually get the word to the top levels that would do something about it.
CPT Sobel was the type of officer, who, had he gone into combat, would have been the victim of an "accidental" weapons discharge.
He made the jump, he did fight, he did fight good. He was apparently competent logistician once put to that job. And Lord knows how many paratroopers he saved by training the doctors to jump status.
Not a great officer, but Herbert Sobel went all nine yards to remove Hitler from my country,
Glad to have him on the team.
@@michalsoukup1021 He was a scumbag pos with how he was. A complete power tripping tyrant that had no clue how to lead. He might have been good in training officer but thats it.
He would have just been dead. His replacement and the HQ team were all killed before they could jump. He would have been killed June 5th instead of Meehan
Thank you for presenting this. I would truly love and respect you citing your sources which I am confident are reliable- as it’s not just professional but provides resilient authenticity and protection personally as a researcher and relator of historical data.❤
My information only comes from Veterans Memoirs. Malarkey, Winters, Speirs, Shames, Webster to name a few all have books where the majority, if not all of the content has come directly from them. I also use after action reports, citations and the company scrap books which were written by the men themselves at the time. I don't like to give away the sources as I spend a lot of time researching it.
I don’t in anyway doubt your veracity. I simply request and advise that you put the additional effort to supply that publicly. Truly it will edify and assist you quickly in your endeavors and passion.
I love history and I am a son of a naval officer buried in Arlington- I am with you. Just giving you what I think is valuable advice- I have no investment except I like hearing the truth and want to assist those who feel the same.
This story reminded me of some thing a veteran told me about his WWII service. Prior to shipping out for a combat assignment his platoon had lost confidence in their commander and made complaints that were considered mutiny by the superior officers. They were tried and convicted, but, it was pointed out by their defense that certain procedures were in error and they were entitled to a new trial. It had become impossible to provide that trial according to regulations so they were sent back to boot camp as raw recruits with clean records.
When I was told that story I thought it was set up so they could warn them about disobedience and remove them from their units without giving anyone else bright ideas about how the army worked.
Good story, every time I have all the info you squeeze out a little more. I'm a retired navy senior chief. i have experienced any number of personnel situations that resulted in bad outcomes. I can't recall any time where I had to worry about going into combat with somebody like Sobel. I did have a feeling of weary familiarity with the events portrayed and a sick, morbid fascination with how it played out. In the navy I have seen enlisted stick it to officers they didn't like, usually by following orders. I'm sure more than one officer has found himself running aground or smashing a pier because some enlisted did what he was told rather than doing what was right. Looking forward to your further efforts!
Thanks mate
Not to put too fine a point of it, but the enlisted is supposed to do what he was told. The Navy has procedures for the enlisted to question orders rather than blindly following them. In the case you mention of the ship running aground or smashing a pier, presumably you are talking about the OOD issuing engine orders or steering orders. The OOD ultimately is responsible for the safe handling of the ship. The helmsman can ask for the order to be repeated but has to follow orders when repeated.
@@charlesgantz5865 I know how its supposed to work :d. Follow the last order given. I've never seen a mutiny like was depicted in this presentation. But, I've seen active resistance to command. The first episode was riveting as I saw the situation work out. My thoughts were, "That ain't good" and "that ain't going to work out well." I
I couldnt imagine a battalion commander like Chesty Puller tolerating Sobel for very long.
Yeah I would have taken Chesty over Sink any day.
chesty was in the marines, not the army and he never served in the european theatre
In my 21 years in uniform, I knew a lot of Sobels, including a few down range.
There will always be men like him in the service.
And guys like you who kept going AWOL
@@klungemagnet what? You admire a POS like him? It must hit a little too close to home for you.
I meet a lot of "Sobels", too, in business.
The only "officer" I ever had like Sobol was a senior ROTC cadet assigned to my ARNG unit when I was an E-3. Under the Army's SMP program, he was getting a few months of experience acting as the company EO before his commissioning. I never met such arrogance combined with such incompetence. I sincerely pray he did not get anyone killed in the Gulf War, which took place five years later.
I find it strange that a officer would act as a DI or in the case of the Army a Drill Sergeant. Typical an officer tells his NCO’s what he wants and they make it happen. Lieutenant’s being wet behind the ears and getting lost or making bad choices is common. They are privates with a BA…..
If Sobel hadn’t been transferred he eventually would have been fragged.
Sobel dropped into Normandy on D-day. He led four men to take out a machine gun without getting fragged.
You shouldn't talk about things that you have no idea about.
If everything followed as the show, Sobel would have been killed along with the E-Company HQ when their C-47 was shot down during D-Day.
That's true, but he wasn't with Easy Company, rather service company.
@@charlesgantz5865 Well, that would have been a good thing to see in the postscript to this presentation. The only reason that anybody would make that comment is that is not widely known. As good as this show was, it reflects the memories of a bunch of aging veterans. I know from my own reunions that everybody doesn't remember things the same way. I'd like to see something about Sobel's D-day experience.
@@donaldg.freeman2804 I'm beginning to think it reflects a limited number of aging veterans with a messiah complex's memories
I am aware of officers in the Navy like Sobel. It's not just a Army problem.
I can imagine. Anyone with a uniform (or even the boss of a company) is capable.
Your videos are quite exceptional. I don’t know where you dug up all the information ℹ️ but I think some credit is also due to your sources. Thanks for posting such fascinating material. ✅👍
I appreciate that!
I have learnt so much from watching your Band of Brothers Videos these last couple of weeks. And others that have been recommended by my viewing history, YT algorithm working for once lol.
Now I did not expect it to be a 100% Factual documentary, knowing full well scenes would be dramatised to suit the medium of TV, and conversations embellished/imagined what was said etc etc,
As listening to Dick Winters interviews in the past saying he would not allow the story to be an incorrect portrayal of events,
But it sure seems like a fair bit may have got past winters, if he indeed had the final say.
Makes me wonder how accurate the Stephen Ambrose book was in the end, and whether he took any liberties in creative writing, Have not read the book in the last 20 years, and as memory is crap, can barely remember it at all really. I also wonder how much of it may have been a clash of personalities between Winters and Him. As it sure seems their was no love lost from Winters about him.
Thanks for that, I'm doing these videos in the hope of finding the true stories of these heroic guys.
Stephen Ambrose was told stories' from some of the veterans but when you cross reference the information you get a feel of what's right and wrong. I'm pretty sure Ambrose filled in the gaps a bit as well so to speak. His best work was Pegasus Bridge imo.
Winters was one of those people, an officer in this case who knew how to manipulate a situation to have a poor leader moved on without it really appearing he'd done anything.
Winters is quite rightly celebrated. Sobel, not so but he had a job to do. He just wasn't a people person and tried hard to be in charge.
I was a part time reservist in the Irish army. After a year or two some of us were trained as Corporals. One, who never related to us got his stripes.
One Sunday morning, he was detailed to drill us. By then we were experienced and veteran. But he went nuts and treated us like we were recruits except you wouldn't treat recruits like that. We basically questioned him but he went full metal jacket DI. You've seen the movie. Remember he was just recently one of us and we were very disciplined.
I guess someone noticed and we never saw him again.
Our Sobel momen.
It was Major Strayer not Colonel Strayer. Major Strayer dismissed the first charges but then Soebel filed new Charges the next day. It was then that Strayer transferred Winters to the Mess hall while he and Sink tried to figure out what to do about all of this.
Strayer was promoted to Lieutenant Colonel in mid 43 before they got to England so was that rank at the time of this incident. I believe Band of Brothers got that wrong as well.
@@IdentitiesWW2 In Winters book he says Stayer was a Lt. Colonel.
Sobel filed new charges? My God that is petty. That's what really sunk his career. That was a signal that Sobel is the problem. When the NCOS gave the Colonel an ear full of what Sobel is really like, ( combined with the new charges)that was probably never written down anywhere even in the book, I think realization of the fact that Sobel would not survive combat in Normandy, it would be a question of how many would die with him or would his own men kill him out of hatred or need to survive.
I look forward to your comments about how Sobel being reassigned, actually saved his life. If that didn't happen he would have been on the plane that was shot down and Meahan would have taken over. The alternate universe version of what all may have happened might be an interesting video.
Aside from being unfair and uninspiring, Sobel was mentally fragile and emotionally unstable. You can tolerate that in a drillmaster but not in a field commander. It is too much of a liability of character. In a functioning Army, promotions are merit based. Even Patton had to watch his subordinates promoted over him because he was simply too much of an a-hole to be trusted to take the next step up.
Quite frankly those traits shouldnt be tolerated fullstop. Unfair, fragile, unstable. Theres not much worse really.
Excellent video, brother
I'm deaf so its my only option unfortunately. Subtitles are no good.
Much appreciated
Great video, thanks!
It’s a training method called bastardisation it’s more common than you might think. Sober was likely following what he learned at military school.
and Culver military academy still excist!!
There’s a trick to it, (sergeant advice)…never actively despise your men.
Everytime officers led convoys in Wainwright we got lost. I wrote down where we had to turn how long between each turn according to speed. AND when we made a wrong turn I laughed with my co-driver because we didnt have a radio.
I wonder why that 100 mile march was not mentioned in the mini series. I understand why it wasn’t presented. But a passing word would have been notable.
I agree, it was a pretty big thing. Sobel was very active during the march as well according to Donald Malarkey.
Probably went against the narrative of Sobel being a Villain in the movie. Mixed messages.
I think Sobel has been judged harshly ever since the TV series. As although he wasnt cut out to LEAD soldiers, he was more than capable of MAKING them. Thankfully the army recognized this and acted accordingly.
Winters was a leader, Sobel was a boss. Any assh*le who has some authority can be a boss. It takes something special to be a leader.
@@georgesouthwick7000 I think youre quite wrong. As a number of the Easy company survivors had stated in interviews, they credit both winters leadership, and Sobels training for getting them through combat.
A man's true nature presents, when they get true power! 🙏 RIP
@@georgesouthwick7000 You must be a disgruntled employee who hates his boss.
The Army pushed a lot of bad officers into field billets.
Well Sobel could be transferred or frigged in Normandy.
When I think about H Sobel I am reminded of two things. First, his transfer OUT of Easy actually might well have saved his life. It was another man in what might well have been the aircraft that went down during the flights to the LZs. Last, a telling of how Sink and the other staff thought of Sobel was during the latter stages of the war with officers in short supply Sobel as far as I know never again was given command, not even as an executive officer of a combat unit. Also, I have said this many times in these types of video comment sections and I fully believe what I am about to say. Sink was a fantastic Combat officer who later retired as a three-star General. Going all the way back to Toccoa I highly doubt Sink was not aware of what was going on in Easy. After the 506th left the US I refuse to believe he was not aware of the goings on in the 506th. I know several men now retired who commanded at the Regiment/Brigade level and higher during their careers. One such man at one time was a Divisional Commander. I asked this man what he thought about Sink's actions when he had Sobel transferred out. The day I asked this question both of us had been playing Golf and he told me to come have lunch with him. After we sat down he told me about a situation that happened when he was a Col. One night before bed his wife told him of a conversation she had with the wife of his Sgt Major that day. An officer under his command had attacked a female who was the wife of one of the NCOs. The first thing he did that next morning was call CID. About 6 weeks later the Convening Authority started an Article 32 investigation that led to charges being filed. Later that officer was dismissed with bad paper. Now I know the wives were not in the UK then, but I am 100% positive based on the many conversations I have had that Sink had his spies everywhere and his ear was to the ground. He knew what Sobel was and simply gave him enough rope and let Sobel do it himself. I doubt the Easy NCO mutiny did anything but remind Sink and Strayer both Sobel had to go.
but I think he was an idiot to allow it to get to mutiny stage. wasthe rope hanging worth hurting his NCOs?
@@Revkor Maybe, but then again maybe not! I never said Sink was perfect. I just said I think he knew a lot more about what was going on in Easy than most historians give him credit for. I suspect the actions of the NCOs surprised him. Easy was the tip of the spear with regard to 2nd Battalion. Easy was physically at its peak just before the Normandy drops. Even members of Easy credited Sobel for this. I can't say what was going on in Sink's mind, but I suspect he was about to act especially after all that crap between Sobel and Winters. Maybe even waiting for something like that jump school to open up just so he could get Sobel in place there. Sink was no dummy!
You read too much into him not being given another combat command, it was rare for someone to get another go at it and the fact was he was good in the roles he did perform after Easy so why waste a good staff officer by throwing him into a company command when he had no combat experience? That is what lieutenants are for. Also he was kept in the 506th, if he was really that incompetent they would have sent him to regular unit or even a coloured one.
@@stevenobrien557 You may be right, then again you may be wrong. The thing is the only real people that can answer those questions are no longer with us. I do know based on his history Sobel was never the same after returning home. He later attempted to end himself and being Sobel botched even that. You are right about something though. There is a BIG difference between a Staff Officer and an Experienced Combat Officer. Ike ran into this problem in the early days of the US involvement in WW2. Sobel was a fairly good Staff Officer. The fact is, we can debate the reason why, but it is a historical fact Sobel never held command of a Combat unit after leaving Easy.
@@THE-michaelmyers lol what a childish answer. Btw Sobel attained a higher rank than Winters and didn't try to avoid service in Korea, his suicide was more related to his family troubles. What kind of parents raised a person that would make light of a war veteran's attempted suicide?
Sobel reminds me of railroad officals. Never spent a day riding a train yet ordering engineers, Conductors and brakeman around like privates. Eventually the unions complained and officials were transferred or fired.
Good. Thanks.
Alot of the men of Easy company actually credit Sobel with surviving the war. I think he was just a better teacher than leader Winters was a total boss tho.
2:24 that’s not Sobel.
Agreed. Looks a little like Norman Dike, but I doubt it's him either.
That's the first thing through my mind too. Don't recall who that is on the left, seen him before, but that is absolutely not Sobel.
I think that's a cluster on his hat so not Dike.
I agree 100% ...doesn't look like ANY of the know pics of Sobel!
It's from a 506th scrap book (copy) I have and the photo is credited to Sobel. The original picture was very grainy so its been restored and colorized. He retired a Lieutenant Colonel so he was quite a bit older in this photo.
Why does the photo of Sobel at around 2:30 have him showing the rank of Lt. Colonel?
Sobel retired a Lieutenant Colonel so this photo would have been taken when he was a fair bit older.
@@IdentitiesWW2 Sobel was a Lt. Colonel when he left after the Korean War. Maybe that's what the picture was, or maybe not.
Yes you are correct.
People like Sobel are why good people get out of the military.
Sgt. Mike Ranney pictured at 6:40 looks a lot like the actor who played Speirs.
Disorientated? Disoriented.
If that's the worst thing you found I guess I'm doing ok Lol
@cbs,
I'd go with "disorientated".
I figure it may not be correct, but it's the American way of saying it... ☆
Actually the longer form is British English while the shorter form seems to be American English.
They mean the same thing and I've heard Brits using both forms.
It’s how we say it in the Army.
The core of the word is the verb 'orientate', so the adjective should be 'orientated/disorientated'.
But 'disoriented' is also used, especially in American English.
It just sounds a bit strange - like you were supposed to be in the Orient (the Eastern world) but are not!
He was a prefect office for training folk but not for leading them in combat
He wasn't even good for training. NCO's and Plt. Leaders do the training, a CO just schedules it.
The picture at 2:12 does NOT look like ANY other authentic photos I have seen of Sobel!
I was thinking that too, I'm confused. I feel like we're looking at two different Sobel's here, plus the rank on the image shown in this video isn't a Captain rank. Maybe someone else knows.
Well I had to look at it twice myself but its credited to him in the 506th scrapbook I have. Sobel retired a Lieutenant Colonel so he would have been a fair bit older in this photo.
I read where later some of the guys said that his hard training paid off in spades for them.
Something I’ve never understood is how exactly the court martial was disposed of. It seems there was never any sort of trial, so it must have been dismissed at some point, right? But I’ve never learned whether Sobel voluntarily withdrew the accusation, or if some administrative thing happened to stop the court martial from going through. If anyone has more information about what happened with that, or how courts martial worked back then, I’d appreciate the info!
At the end of the day, as Battalion commander, It didn't have go any further than Colonel Sink and he simply dismissed it. I'm pretty sure that Strayer could have squashed it as well.
With Sobel gone, the major accuser had departed. The whole thing could have been dismissed quietly by a higher ranking officer as unnecessary.
The "Hitler mustache" on the picture of Sobel that you show at about the 2:52 mark was added by Dick Winters himself - Winters admitted that he did it.
Winters' transfer to Battalion Mess Officer is not the punishment that you may think it is. Removing Winters at least temporarily from Soble's chain of command makes sense under the circumstances. This is a pretty standard move that protects Winters as well as Soble while the court martial charges were in progress. It is important to realize that at this point the Battalion and Regimental commanders did not know the inside story. All they had to go on was what Soble reported.
Yeah he obviously had a good sense of humor. Sobel must have not been censoring mail at that point, Winters would have been doing it himself.
Battalion and Regiment had to be aware that initial charges were dismissed by them and Sobel brought new charges immediately afterwards I understand. I'm sure that had their attention. When the NCOs got involved I'm sure that blew their minds. If Sobel didn't get the jump school he might have wound up in the Pacific theater!
I'm not army but I am familiar with court Marshals. We had a guy on the submarine that was stealing mail. Took phone cards , my replacement credit card and intercepted the bills (no Internet then). He was transferred to a shore command that was still part of our squadron until trial. This was partly for his safety and to remove him from the chain of command so he would get a fair trial. Sounds like the Army had a similar procedure. By removing the Lt from easy company, he was removed from easy's chain of command. Capt Sobel could not abuse him further. The LT. Was free to plan his defense and the NCOs were free to visit him under the guise of planning a defense and Sobel could do nothing about it. Reassignment to mess duty was probably a procedure in these situations not an insult.
Yeah it sounds like these issues are very common in the forces.
Look forward to part 2. I must admit, I am a bit dissapointed to hear Winters had encouraged the mutiny. Shame on him.
Well that's that the rumor anyway. If he was really concerned about his men getting killed then I guess you do whatever you need to do. Colonel Sink may have even spoke to Winters and known about it as well. You just don't know what goes on sometimes.
@IdentitiesWW2 According to Edward Shames Winters was anti jewish.
Bull shit. I’m a retired Infantry NCO and had both great and worthless Officers around me and there is a limit the NCO’s will tolerate so they have a choice to make, be lead to the immediate death of the entire Company by an imbecile or, do the only option remaining to force a decision from higher. I’ve seen the impact of a worthless battalion commander during the Gulf War while I was in the 2/502nd INF, 101st ABN who came from JAG Corps to punch his 12 month command ticket for his promotion and I’m being generous by saying worthless, it was unbelievable but thankfully he had a minimal impact on the companies so, our Co. (D Co. CPT William Hix) was well respected by the other CO’s so every afternoon I’d see the CO’s gather with our CO to discuss what training we should be doing to prepare for combat. During OIF 1.5 we had great leaders though.
@@IdentitiesWW2 I see. Thank you for your response. :D
@@user-vl6xt2rt7p Interesting. I would not hold that against him as long as it didn't affect his ability to be professional. I have a few prejudices myself, for example I don't like people who abuse welfare.
If people actually read the book and "We who are alive and remain" they'd probably think differently of sobel. The series although good had some serious inaccuracies. Sobel being one. Blithe also didn't die. He stayed in the military, became a Master Sergeant and fought in korea. Norman Dike also was portrayed negatively when in reality he was awarded numerous bronze stars specifically for his leadership abilities in combat. One in Holland for "organizing and leading scattered groups of parachutists in the successful defense of an important road junction on the vital Eindhoven Supply Route against superior and repeated attacks, while completely surrounded." His 2nd was "he personally removed from an exposed position, in full enemy view, three wounded members of his company, while under intense small arms fire". Its also well documented that dike only left the line due to being shot and not as described as "falling apart" like the series shows. Comptom actually fell apart, Nixon was drunk in combat all the time and never actually fired his weapon during the war, Lt. Jones was a butter bar with zero experience, Winters although an excellent PL and a decent company CO was a 26 year old unqualified battalion CO that should've court martialed nixon and made questionable battlefield decisions at that level but followed without contest compared to other leaders due to the "loyalty to winters" and these men were presented only in a positive light. Favoritism always plays a role when the truth is in its hands.
I have videos on Blithe which cover what you have just said. There are also two more videos on Sobel in this series.
@@IdentitiesWW2 I'll check them out. Thank you.
Cutting that fence was an idiot move. Easier and lot less hassle in the future, especially from an irate local farmer, to just go over it or under it.
I'd heard in several interviews that Sobel was not "universally" hated and that many men after the war credited him for providing conditioning that saved their lives in combat. Like the Private Blithe story, this will never be satisfactory cleared up.
I cover a lot of that in part 3 of the series.
@@IdentitiesWW2 lol, I just watched 2 and 3. It’s like I quoted what you say there
It seems odd to me that a company commander would function as a drill instructor. Was that common in World War 2? I would think that there would be an Airborne drill instructors who would train the troops and then they would go to their unit. Was this just because the Airborne was a new concept and there was no formal school, or was this common in 1942? Or was the series just combining the Sobel role with the DI role to move the storyline?
I'd say it was because the company was newly formed and the CO probably took on most of those types of roles. Sobel was also a bit of a control freak.
@@IdentitiesWW2 Yes, he seems that way. But most US Army companies were newly formed in 1942, so it was hardly an unusual situation.
pretty good job!
Thanks!
@@IdentitiesWW2 it was the first video of yours i watched. that was the first thing that popped in my head when i watched. cheers
The making of a soldier can be an ugly and harsh thing. You are dealing with human beings that aren't anywhere even close to where they need to be. But what's the ugly and dirty and harsh work of making them soldiers is complete, they need to be led by someone with a completely different mindset.
Sink wasn't a battalion commander, he was the regimental commander
Yes you are correct. When you have a lot of information going around in your head you are going to make mistakes. That's why I'm not hard on Ambrose or the veterans when mistakes are made as its easy to do.
The picture at 2:38 doesn't look like Sobel at all... Looks more like Tom Hanks than Sobel. I thing somebody got the wrong picture.. Not to mention that looks like an airborn patch on his cap, and he has the rank of LTC, and Sobel was in the reserves at that rank.
I cant confirm either way. It was credited to him in a 101st airborne scrapbook well after the war.
@@IdentitiesWW2 It's clearly not him. Eyebrows, nose, lips, all completely different. And he wouldn't be wearing LTC. rank from the 101st.
@@ffjsb You are probably right but I can't remove photos once they are loaded. It doesn't take away from the story which is the important part.
So what happened to the charges against Winters?
They were dropped when Sobel was transferred.
Winters did not encourage the NCO’s to mutiny 🤬
According to one very popular veteran he did.
It is easy to forget that the US Army was a tiny neglected force with few experienced leaders, few professional officers or NCO's, greatly inferior in numbers, training or generalship to almost every European army when WW2 started. Sobel was a good drillmaster but couldn't keep it professional or lead in combat. Not a surprise, but making that force into the winners they became was an achievement in its own right.
"Chicken Sh-it!" Was a GI term for useless actions by officers or Sargents, that in no way benefited the war efforts!
You completely missed the point, and I do not know how because they made the point very clearly in the series. Sobel was a below average combat officer, but an outstanding training officer. These are two different skill sets. But the reason they were so effective was a combination of great combat leadership AND outstanding training. Sobel was half of that equation.
Men never love discipline until later, but every man worth a damn appreciates that discipline wqhen he looks back on it.
It might help if you watch parts 2 and 3 where that is covered.
Fair enough. I will check them out in a bit.
Both my grandfather's had been in active service 1939... remember that easy company spent a year camped in an English village.. all the woopie doopie things the company achieved was after many British service men had served 5 years, many in combat theatres...
Not sure what your point is.
Sobel was a petty tyrant. He was doomed to failure. He would have taken Easy Company with him.
Sobel was a bad faith actor. I don’t care if you think you’re doing the “right thing”, if you are acting without honor or integrity, you are not in the right.
I didn't know Sobel but what I know of him I would have hated him
I thought Strayer was battalion commander and Sink 506th Regiment's commander.
Yep you are right. I'm always going to make a mistake here and there.
@@IdentitiesWW2 all good. I love your videos
Fascinating.
Color me subscribed.
Thanks for the sub!
I am so glad I’m out , to many like Sorbel
I think too much stock has been placed in BoB as a historical documentary. Yes, I'll grant you that it is based on historical events, with the characters coming from real people. But it is also a piece of entertainment, with it's own narrative license and specific, curated story to tell in a way that engages it's viewers. Which it is supremely succesful at.
Sobel was, by Dick Winters' own admission, a great trainer of men. He was on record as saying that he credits Sobel at least partially with giving Easy Company tough training that helped them survive the rigors of war.
The character was just a wannabe hardass, but the real man surely had more depth, and it seems he was working with people like George Luz who were actively trying to make his job harder. This is no excuse for being a bad officer, but just serves to drive home that a miniseries is not real life, and we shouldn't judge real life based on said miniseries.
If you are portraying real people and using their names you need to be as accurate as possible with their stories. The places and dates and uniforms etc don't matter so much. Unfortunately Band of Brothers focused more on the latter and got lazy on the men's stories.
Unless you've been in the military and can understand the very serious psychopathology that can affect a particular chain of command, it may just seem like gossip. But I can assure you it has cost many men their lives.
I resigned my commission as soon as I could.
2:24 the real Captain Herbert Sobel looks like Forrest Gump. He doesn’t look like the black and white photo of him in his paratrooper combat uniform.
That photo was taken after WW2 when he was a lieutenant Colonel.
Many officers were fragged in
Vietnam war according to
Reports
Were any in ww2?
Interesting question. Ill try to find out.
Its my understanding that the brass saw Vietnam as a way to get Officers actual real combat experience , and came up with a idea of Officers serving only a few months , instead of yr , so to get a higher number of Officers combat experience.However the un-intended consequences was they did not have enought time to get Good , this made the right conditions for fragging to happen .
@@chrisfarr9494 Is it correct that what might of contributed to the Vietnam effect was that for much of the conflict it was a revolving door of new faces? I can see being green and dropped in to a group where there are people who are counting down the days until they hop on the freedom bird and have a very burn-out perspective can contaminate any idea that you are in the same pile of shit with others and are in there all by yourself. In WWII wasn't the effort to move entire units along in one tranche. From what I recall about the Band of Brothers series they touch upon the difficulties 'the replacements' had in integrating in to a salty unit.
(background my spouse was a warrant officer aviator in the 1/9 air cav in vietnam and served for two and a half years in combat)
that photo at 2:15 is definitely not sobel. The nose, jaw, and eyes are all wrong. You can tell his ears are way too different from his military academy days
I got it from a 506th scrapbook. He retired a Lieutenant Colonel. He would have been at least 10 years older than his other photos.
I marathoned the series last week. It was the first time I really comprehended that had Sobel not been reassigned he would have been killed in the crash on D-Day and nothing would have changed for the rest of Easy.
You can't make that leap. Meehan moved faster and slower than Sobel, went to dinner at different times and places. If he had gotten on the airplane, along with everyone else, one second sooner or one second slower then the shell would have missed.
Major Horton was Oliver not Harry
I believe that Harry was what he was called in the field.
If the NCOs had not protested, Sobel would have died when his plane was hit by AA fire. Lt. Meehan may have survived. Winters would have still led the assault on Brecourt Manor.
Yes, Meehan was the one who drew the short straw.
Why wouldn't Meehan have lead that first assault? I know as company commander (which I've been) I would have
Winters probably would have been forced out of the division by that point.
@@stevenobrien557 why? Thats the most absurd comment yet.
Yeah but they couldnt know that or take that chance with their lives or the men under them.
If Sobel led the company.
Who would have fragged Herbert Sobel?
2:22 that isn’t sobel.
According to the 506th PIR scrapbook I have it is. Looks a bit different to his other photos but it was taken when he was a Lieutenant Colonel probably in Korea so he would have been 10 years older than his Toccoa photos.
@@IdentitiesWW2 I don't know who that is but it's Lieutenant Colonel rank on the over seas cap. I don't think Sobel ever made it past captain.
@@IdentitiesWW2 Also the photo is reversed, you can see the 101 patch on the right sleeve it was only worn on the left sleeve.
Sobel retired a Lieutenant Colonel
@@IdentitiesWW2 wow, I didn't know that, usually being relieved would have ended a career. Thanks!
Cruel chicken s*it doesn't help anyone. Add in being incompetent, it's criminal that he was ever in charge of anything. I'm just going by what I saw on tv.
Sink was the Regimental Commander and Sink is such like Sobel in his methods to officers in his Regiment, Winters has similar stories of Sink having officers show up at exact times and reprimanding them. There's too much faith in the memories of those who participated in Band of Brothers, dead men can't defend themselves
Winters was quite bitter towards the end of the war when he realised that military career was not going to happen, especially so towards West Point graduates like Sink.
@@stevenobrien557 it seemed like he didnt want it., He had seen too much and wouldnt have wanted to continue it and wanted a life of peace.
@@MysticalDragon73 Read his book. He was angry that he did not get the MoH for Brecourt Manor which he felt was because of preference for West Point grads, something he felt prevented him from having a post war military career. Fighting had already stopped in Germany and he had volunteered to be part of the invasion of Japan. He changed his mind because his career aspirations were seemingly dashed.
Maj. Oliver Horton not "Harry". KIA in Holland.
He was known as Harry in the field. They never went by their Christian names.
@@IdentitiesWW2 then I stand corrected, sir.
“Disorientated”??? Really? FFS!
that's not a real pic of sobel...wtf??
It came from the original 506th scrapbook but they got the photo wrong. Sobel did retire a Lieutenant Colonel and that book was written after the war.
Sobel would have been 'fragged" in Viet Nam.
At 2:12, identifies a LT Colonel as "Captain Herbert Sobel"--Look at rank insignia on cap-not captain's bars
Also at 2:12, it's a picture of Robert Harwick and not Sobel.
4:34 Strayer was a Major at the time of the mess hall incident, not a Colonel
Bad research resulting in bad video.
Sobel retired a Lieutenant Colonel. This photo is from a 506th scrapbook which includes Korea and is credited to him. I'm pretty sure its Sobel. Strayer was a Colonel in mid 1943.
Thanks for watching!
Nothing good you can say about Sobel, he totally failed to gain the respect of his men which is the worst position an Officer can be in. His men hated him, men can stomach hard training if they know their leader is competent and doing his best to save their lives. Sobel was not that kind of leader.
It is incredibly easy to sit in our easy chairs, eighty years later, and pass judgment on the actions of a leader trying to do his best during a world war! All for the sake of "clicks" on a meaningless social media platform. Everyone should just STFU, and let it go.
Thanks for the feedback.
Especially when the author of the book, Stephen Ambrose, was well known for embellishment in all of his history books.
Gotta love AI am I the only one who sees the “portrait” of Captain Sobel wearing a lt colonel rank when he never earned that?
I noticed that. Sobel did reach the rank of Lt Col after the war.
That has nothing to do with AI. That photo came from a 506th scrapbook and he did retire a Lieutenant Colonel. He was a fair bit older in this photo to others you see.
@@panderson9561 according to Wikipedia Sobel made LT colonel he was in Reserves and called to active duty during Korean war
This video is just plain wrong. I've seen interviews with the men that were actually in Easy Company. The all agreed Sobel was tough and harsh but they all also credited him with making Easy Company what it was; a highly trained and effective unit.
You can find the interveiws on youtube. There's even one where a guys says they protrayed Sobel pretty badly in the show.
You need to watch the rest of the series, that is well covered in Part 3.
AI?
Yes I'm deaf
Sobel was a jerk. There are lots of jerks in the military. I served under a few. Sobel should never have been allowed to cause it to get as far as it did. Command staff failed too. Understandable though. This was a shooting war and they had to get it done. Certain niceties go out the window in a shooting war.
Sobel would not have survived DDay. If the Germans didn't get him Easy co would have.
Remember that he did jump into Normandy and was awarded a Bronze Star and Purple Heart for supposedly knocking out a machine gun nest.
I never understood this part. We infantry all saw the toxic and incompetent revealed over time and shunted off to other jobs, and while every story must have a villain, Sobel was a real guy with descendants still alive. Whatever his faults, Sobel was a brother too, and dissing him in front of his family puts you heroes in Blue Falcon territory.
I think it was a sign of the times. Its not like today where even in the army its against regulations to 'hurt someone's feelings'. I'm a bit surprised that Winters still had so much hatred for Sobel even 70 years after the war. I wished someone had of asked him that.
Sobel was a scumbag pos and not worthy of any respect then or now.
The real Sobel was so inept he couldn’t delete himself properly.
Some people compound their misery unfortunately. The guy had no reason to be like that. He retired a Lieutenant Colonel, had jumped into combat and faced death, won awards and was by all accounts a great husband and father until he had a break down. Perhaps he had a terrible case of PTSD.
Well... he displayed neuroticism, narcissism and all the other trappings of his ilk.
He wasn't mocked in the series. Is it necessary to spit on his grave? It serves no real purpose.
Sobel was hero. A flawed hero, but weren't they all?
Sobgel was a scumbag pos tyrant. people like that, especially "leaders" deserve no respect.
What I thought rather weird from the opening scene was that Sobel sounds and looks like a drill sergeant or drill instructor, not the commanding officer.
It became clear rather quickly that he was a mean spirited bully.
Example: following a gruelling night march in combat gear, he orders the men to empty their canteens. He walks around, then spots one canteen that is already empty before the others are done. He approaches the man with the empty canteen because apparantly the men were not allowed to even take a sip during the march.
Then we see the 'guilty paratrooper' is a machine gunner. They carried the heaviest loads. To just pick on the machine gunner showed Sobel's true character.
Or better, his lack of character.
As both episode one and two go, we learn that Sobel is actually incompetent as a commanding officer.
So in my opinion it is clear his 'disciplinarian' facade was just a show to hide his incompetence.
This is all just from analyzing the mini-series, I haven't researched it in depth.
If you read the accounts of Normandy, it wasn't uncommon to run out of water. Then you see why water discipline was important.
@@charlesgantz5865 An actual leader would have taught the men that lesson in a proper way. Not by treating those who work harder (machinegunners) like sh1t.
Tuh ko uh. Not Tak
Thanks for the feedback.
3:48 indorsement.....
AI voiced garbage
I'm deaf so its my only option. Subtitles with no sound is not very interesting.