Richard 'Dick' Winters - Part 8 Court-Martial, Mutiny & Sobel's Transfer (Band of Brothers Untold)
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- This incident took place during the same time frame as Part 7 of this series at Aldbourne, England as Winters and Easy Company were preparing for the invasion of France.
Such a great video. Winters was a natural leader
Thank you so much for the Dick winters series I've been enjoying every episode !
Many thanks.
👍👍 This is one of the most fascinating videos you have made so far, which is high praise indeed. There are so many additional details in this video that the brief episode in the TV miniseries did not have the luxury of time to cover. This video does present Colonel Sink in a far more favourable light than he appeared in some earlier videos. The feedback from Major Horton was most enlightening. Those NCO’s were gutsy to say the least. On a lighter note, I was pleased to learn that the latrines passed inspection! 🚽 🚽 🚽✅👍 I have to watch this video again!
I'm striving to improve all the time my friend.
I personally, as a Pennsylvanian and Navy Veteran, applaud the political ads because I know and understand how my father, an ETO Combat Infantry Veteran, despaired at the changes and activities of our government and society at large, starting in the 1960's. I'm Confident that if the WW2 generation was still in this world the tar and feather parties would be a sight to behold and fear, especially inside the beltway.
The "have them shot" threat by Sink seems like just that, a threat. Shooting seems very extreme, even in wartime. The didn't desert, they just didn't want to be NCO's any longer.
And the army didn't want to waste qualified paratroopers with even imprisonment after all the time and resources spent on training.
It was just a threat, but at the same time, he needed to make a point that this was something that couldn't be tolerated, even if the threat was just for show. Unit discipline was on the line. That the NCOs actually got off so lightly indicates that this provided a means to solve a known leadership issue.
However, in wartime, The UCMJ imposed capital punishment for such actions.
Call me wrong, but I see the actions of the sergeants as better leadership than Sobel and his psychotic bullying.
Winters couldn't figure out why Sink liked him? Maybe because Sink knew an outstanding officer when he saw one.
It's clear that the trigger to Sink's command changes is the NCOs' mutiny -- that got his attention. Mass resignations are a rare but are always a significant gesture. Of course, we have little insight into Col Sink's feeling on Winters. I can only assume that Winters had performed well, especially in the field, and was generally well regarded. It seems Easy Company NCOs' request for Lt Winters back was the key to Winters' return.
I don't think Sink was letting Winters go anywhere. He could see at Toccoa how good he was with the men. Strayer on the other hand might not have made the same decision.
@@War_And_Truth Your video from 2 days ago would beg to differ. Strayer clearly saw Winter's potential, as well as Sobel's deficiencies. I think you nailed it when you alluded to Sink and Strayer overlooking Sobel's questionable methods, because of the results on Easy's training performance. However, it also left them with the tough task of replacing an officer with (supposedly) an impeccable performance record, and relieving him of command prior to combat deployment. Whether or not Sink and Strayer orchestrated the mutiny is debatable, but it would be silly to think they weren't aware of it... they probably allowed it to happen, to solve their little 'issue', and Sink's dressing down of the NOC's served 2 purposes: 1. pomp and show for the rest of the soldiers/superiors, and 2. letting them know this kind of crap would not be tolerated again.
Great series and I looked forward to every episode -- thanks very much.
Glad you like them!
That was the fastest 11 minute video I’ve ever watched.
Job well done Sir 😊
Thank you.
Some commentators contend that's Sobel was not a bad commander. However if all the noncoms resigned causing Col Sink to remove Sobel from his position it gives credence that Sobel had lost the confidence of his men. That this happened is confirmed by the record.
Great video! And the part about saluting the rank, (not the man) really happened. Sweet revenge!
Glad you enjoyed it!
I experienced this very type of "Line Company" Officer Conduct. But my alibi was my 18 months assignment at the "The Basic School" in Quantico. This gave me much insight into the Officer Brainwashing and I was able to mentally defend my position and bring superior intellect into the challenges because I was very familiar with the FMF Manuels and Training Stimulus. When I held a firm position and steady physical bearing these Officers were frustrated because I did not bring belligerence or insubordination into the daily encounters but a tactful denial to the bullshit that they tried to force on us....
Sink saw something in Winters and as we know, that paid off time and time again
Yes its nice when you back the right horse. I get the feeling Sink really only had full trust in Winters out of all of his officers (including Strayer)
It was set to keep Winters. Get rid of the rotten egg legally sober .
Amazing book to read!
Why would Sink go through the trouble of orchestrating a mutiny when he could have simply re-assigned Sobel with the recognition that Sobel was well suited for training?
My guess is that Sink had his doubts about Sobel and the NCO’s actions brought it to a head.
He may have had to justify the decision to division and I believe somebody did come down to see what was going on. When its just one man unhappy (Winters) that's one thing but when you have every NCO in the company threatening to walk out that gives you a lot more leverage. I could be wrong but that's the feeling I get from it.
I don't know how or why Sink could have orchestrated something as unpredictable as a NCO mutiny especially when it was precipitated by Winters' unexpected court-martial process. Sink didn't need to have grounds to reassign Sobel and the mutiny was a humiliation to his command of the regiment. Just imagine the embarrassing questions Sink got from his fellow colonels and his commanding general about a large number of his NCOs resigning en masse.
@@dlxmarkshis field performance alone shoukd have been enough
Later Sobel did jump into combat in France and won several commendations.
He then ran supplies from Utah Beach to the front. Its in my next video about Leo Boyle.
He received a bronze star with "V" For valor. Many members of easy company credit him with them surviving. Apparently was a good father and husband. Died blind and alone in a retirement home. This was after a failed suicide attempt with the firearm.
Excellent video. I’m pretty sure I’d take Winters word over Sobel.
Just because you were bad for the army doesn't mean your bad for the rest of life.
Usually it is .
Dick Winters was An Leader And Super Fine Man
At least according to his own book...
Of course everyone knows this story. It's always good to watch furthet retellings of it, because you can always learn something new. I appreciate and enjoy this content.
But after all that I have learned and heard since 2000 (when easy company became a central part of the history most Americans know because of the series), I just don't hate Sobel the way everyone else seems to.
Just like everyone else, he had his strengths and his weaknesses. Personally, as an old school veteran (I serve between 1988 and 1992, before it got soft), I have no problem with the way he trained his men, and the punishments he handed out. Military training is not supposed to be about fairness. It's supposed to be about doing whatever you have to do to get men ready to fight, in order to save their lives later when they have to. If you're soft on them in training, how does that prepare them for an enemy that is certainly not going to be soft on them at all?
Think on the one incident that everyone knows about, about the latrine inspection. Absolutely it was not fair for him to change the time without Winters knowing. But then think of the point, and the mindset that you absolutely must get men into before sending them into battle. There is nothing fair about war. There is no democracy on the battlefield. Your enemy will use every dirty trick he can in order to make sure you die instead of him. If he can trick you into showing up at a certain time, while he shows up 15 minutes ahead of that time, he will do it.
This is training for war. I understand exactly what Sobel's point was when he did that.
I also understand that he was incompetent in the field, so I understand why he had to be replaced before they went into combat. He wasn't a good field officer. Like I said, strengths and weaknesses.
But from what I have learned, these men were far better off because of him than they would have been without him.
One thing you can say about Sobel is he saved a lot more lives than he cost.
@@War_And_Truth agreed
The failure was in communications (If Soebel is accurate and truthful). Why was
Soebel not informed of the failure to deliver the message to Winters? In the Navy
anyway, this is called "message protection". This protection is a general NATO
discipline and applies to all services but may very well not have been sufficiently
developed at the time. Did Soebel use official means to attempt to communicate
with Winters or did he just find some guy on a bicycle and tell him to deliver a
post-it note? In a trial, these charges would be dismissed with prejudice.
i have watched the series and read several of the books. the Shifty Powers one got me very emotional at the end. I find when watching your videos that although not a long watch so to speak, that they are interesting and very informative. when i have watched several more i will re watch the series again and see what difference it makes to me when watching. i think it will make quite the difference filling in some of the blanks so to speak. thank you and well done keep up the great work. PS: do you have any other social media presence that i can follow?
Thanks mate. No I am not on any at the moment but will let you know if I do. I just try to put up a video everyday right now.
@@War_And_Truth well you are doing an amazing job. this Brit living in Thailand appreciates your efforts very much
Ur pic of Strayer is actually Ron Spiers
At 8.29? That's Strayer my man. There are no photo's of Speirs in this video.
I would have been court marshalled by morning tea time, if Sobel was giving me shit like that.
Just shows in the name of "rank & authority one egostic can oñe person mentaly can destroy an effectival fighting unit . ( & any good soldiers " grouse" can be totally dismissed..by so called ' authority..'
I get confused by the timeline?
I thought Sobel was going to give Winters much more than a 48-hour restriction.
More like a month?
Reason I'm asking: Did Sobel know Easy was set to depart up north by train, within the time frame of Winters' restriction?
If so, someone under restriction wouldn't be able to ship out with the command?
Sobel was trying to get rid of Winters by leaving him behind?
When soldiers stay too long at a hospital the were reassign as the Army needed, so it follows suit Winters would have been replaced?
Just thinking, Sobel tried to pull a fast one, a stunt, even for him, was a bit much.
The punishment was to be Winters not receiving a 48-hour pass for a couple months until December 1943. It was a trivial penalty that wouldn't have had any effect on Winters but he was angry at the principle of accepting the charge.
Capt Sobel got what he deserved, he was a very sadistic man and Colonel Sink saw right through him and realized he had no choice but to reassign Sobel and keep Winters in Easy Co because he had the men's respect and was a natural leader. Capt Sobel would have had Easy Company slaughtered in combat.
I read somewhere else that Winters all but orchestrated the mutiny, and then was pissed that Mehan got the CO job instead of him. I wish I could get some corroboration on that story and a source so I could know that I'm relating it properly.
I haven't heard that one.
Sobel was good at training. Not so good at leading.
sink tried to convince winters to stay in the army after the war. sink retired as a 3 star general
The more I learn about the real Sobel, the more I realise how much David Schwimmer crushed his role.
Yes he was very good.
Yes. The real sobel was told by his wife and kids to be a great man. Not like in the army. But something is fishy
When sobel died , no family went t o his funeral.
@@letsgobrandon6281 He died from malnutrition and neglect. In a VA hospital. No vet deserves that.
@@wessexdruid7598 Definitely. He was just a round peg in a square hole.
@@glenchapman3899you have got that wrong mate, a round peg will Always fit in a square hole, but nit the other way around! Providing they are of the correct size lol
I was a company commander in the 101st myself. I had a first sergeant who explained leaders as being one of two types; paper pushers and people pushers. I've never seen anything since that proved Top wrong. I reckon that Sobel was a paper pusher who found himself in the job of pushing people - something he wasn't cut out for.
I've seen the type, too. Some NCO office-bi+ch comes out once every 6 months to show that he can roll with the rank-and-file guys and be a field-NCO but only shows why he needs to keep his ass in the office, order parts, and STFU.
I'm glad someone else has that opinion.
I was in the 82nd.
My First Sargeant was a paper pusher.
My Captain was a people pusher.
Loved that dude.
My father knew the men of easy company... He survived the entire Korean war including pork chop hill. He knew Audi Murphy. Spent 6 years in combat with 13 combat stripes on his sleeve. Retired Lt. Col. after 23 years. He retired in 1973. Some of these men in this video were in my house although I was to young to remember them.
You are lucky to have that history in your family.
Cool, who was your dad?
Colonel Sink knew Winters was a good man and would undoubtedly be a good combat leader. He knew every man in the company's strengths and weaknesses as he was the only officer still with them who started at Toccoa. In any job you want the best men on your team and Winters was one of the best. The men loved him and trusted him as he did them. Thanks for another great video Sir.
Thank you.
@@War_And_Truth you're welcome 😁
Yes, but Sink did not know what was going on in his own command and should have dealt with this problem earlier. Also who promoted Sobel to Captain?
@@odinnln5694 Sink promoted him. I guess standard procedure was to be a Captain as a Company CO.
@@War_And_Truth Prior to combat deployment, promotions for officers were on a time schedule. Sobol was likely promoted on schedule.
I already knew that the court-martial debacle saved Sobel's life by preventing him from flying in stick #66 on D-Day but I just now realized that it saved Winters as well because he would have been on the same plane as company XO.
It's insane they made such a bad mistake like that. Now a days there's no way they'd have all of leadership in the same plane. Such a dumb thing
He would have gotten fragged within minutes of landing in Normandy!
A wise leader cultivates and encourages the men he commands not for the reason that they make him look good… but that they accomplish the mission and make everyone look good.
I've seen it happen, the senior leadership seems unaware of someone who is incompetent, but in reality they know. They need a way to resolve the issue and my guess this worked out for Sink. I'm sure he knew Sobel was not doing well in the field, but needed a way to nicely move him into something that fit his skillset . Being an excellent training officer is not a disgrace.
This series on Winters has been superb. I'm now caught up. Re Sobel, I think the high-ups knew he'd be a liability in combat. Given his training ability, the sideways move solved a lot of problems. It wouldn't surprise me if it was engineered.
I'm 99% sure it was all orchestrated by Sink.
Sink watched Winters progress but should have noticed that Sobel was detrimental to his whole company from the beginning while stateside.
@@RichKosack he wasn't. He was instrumental in preparing them for the hardships of war. There's a reason they performed so well. They even credit sobel themselves
There is absolutely no way a regiment CO encourages or otherwise facilitates a group resignation of NCO’s in one of his companies. Subsequent events, like transferring Sobel and retaining Winter against SOP, sure. Absolutely. But engineering or facilitating the mutiny itself? Not just no. HELL no. The Colonel’s at serious risk himself for that.
@@CubeInspector Because people have his silly habit not to speak ill of the dead, even when it is warranted. Psychologists agree that some of the E Company survivors were lying so as not to seem petty, and that others convinced themselves that his training mattered. But it really didn't, according to military experts. Elite unit (Tier 1 and 2) trainers nowadays known that at some point, physical and mental conditioning stops doing good and starts doing harm. Sobel's methods were well past that point.
Winters should have been promoted to Major in The Netherlands and Lieutenant Colonel in February 1945.
Winters was not promoted to LtC at any time.
My question is what did Sink and Strayer think of Sobel at this point? Didn’t Sobel’s field incompetence show up in Easy’s performance ?
Well, at least one report did. Those ticked off farmers about the fence cutting probably raised a few eyebrows about Sobel.
I think Strayer was partial to Sobel because he had made him look good as battalion XO. In my opinion, Sink used Sobel in the early days to form the company and weed out the men who couldn't hack it. When that job was done prior to D DAY, he couldn't get rid of Sobel fast enough. He was kept in England (after his D DAY jump) until March 1945. I think the NCO mutiny was Sink's idea and why the punishment was so lenient. Salty Harris was the scapegoat but he had already decided to join the pathfinders anyway.
Sink had the authority to move Sobel without a mutiny by the NCO’s. Seems like a lot of work and melodrama to orchestrate a mutiny to achieve the same results he could have with the stroke of a pen.
@@DouglasLyons-yg3lv Why did they have to read through manuals to try to get him off as mentioned by Harry Horton? A staff battalion from division even came down to investigate the matter. I'm not sure Sink had such powers.
You tell me?
"What is the god-damn holdup, Mr. Sobel?"
When an enlisted, it gets to that point, it's hard to hide.
And the fool cut the fence, always lost.
Thank you so much, I always wondered what happened to the court martial.
If Sobel hadn’t been replaced he would have been on the plane that crashed and killed his replacement lt Meehan so the end result would have been the same he would’ve been killed and Winters would have taken over the company.
Regardless of how Winters' court-martial went, he would not have returned to Easy while Sobel was still in command. Perhaps after Overlord he might have been reassigned to Easy but that wasn't a certainty.
I don't remember what I did; but as a young (E-2) sailor while going through "A" school I was given Extra Duty and for a week, I dug a 2 x 2 x 2 foot hole; put the dirt in a wheel barrow and then went 10 feet; dug another hole; buried the dirt; then filled the wheel barrow and proceed to fill the first hole with the dirt from the second hole. I remembered that cruddy, useless assignment as I advanced in rate; became a CPO and later was commissioned as a CWO. If I ever assigned extra duty to a sailor I made darn sure the extra duty was directly related to fixing the offense or error.
I was a GMG2 on the battleship Missouri when this happened. After morning quarters I handed out work assignments to my guys and went about my job. I went to check one them and one was not at the place I assigned him and no work had been done, an E3. This was about 2 hours after the assignments were handed out. So I went looking for him and found him skating watching videos in one of our used spaces we turned into a movie theater.
When asked why he was not doing his assigned work, he said since I was only an E4, he did not have to obey my orders. So I weighed my options in my head then went for it. I told him I was an NCO and gave him a lawful order which he refused to obey and right now could write him up for disobeying a lawful order and UA and send him to mast. I told him that I will not look for him nor give the order again. But he has a choice. I will not do anything right now, but he has to find by knockoff or he will be sent to mast. But if he finds me then I will not write him up but he will have to give me 8 hours extra duty on Saturday, his day off and my duty day.
So here he comes just before knockoff and tells me he has been thinking about it and chooses the extra duty. Comes Saturday and I tell him to get into his worse dungarees and meet me on the powder flats. He comes down and I have a bail of rags and the hatch to the bilge open. His 8 hours included him mopping up the leaked but harmless fluids from the powder house and water from the dunk tanks. After it's done we sat down and talked about what he did and he admitted he was wrong.
He said he was thinking about his options the day I gave them to him. He said if I wrote him up he would have been busted to E2, maybe E1, have a permanent mark on his record and miss the chance for promotion to E4. From that day forward never had a problem with him, never told my E5 and up what happened, it stayed between us. Never liked the NCOs who go straight to sending someone to mast, depending on the offense of course. Use the event as a teaching moment. Yes, he did take the exam and made E4.
Well done, and good call.
That's what a man would do!
Reminds me of a story my dad told me of when his brother was a failing a class in school and their mother punished him by having him walk home from school. Not getting him help or figuring out his problem.
Under the UCMJ the punishment of extra duty for an Article 15 cannot be any type of training. This includes physical training or any type of education or task evaluation preparedness. I am sure those sent to you were not charged with an Article 15.
@@samuelschick8813 Our _Deep Dark Pit of Dispair_ were the torpedo room bilges. I spent so much time in them, I had the shipyard power clean and paint them. Then I hung a hammock to snooze in.
The COB didn't hear about that little caper for eight months. By then he had figured out I liked the punishment details. I was the designated ship's courier to the Shipyard Commander's Office. _And_ the skipper's bodyguard and driver.
Former STS2 (SS) 1981-1987
(When they brought _Mighty Mo_ back into service, they trained a lot of the crew at the ASW base in San Diego. If you were part of that wave of sailors, we may have met. I was the big white guy checking people into the barracks and giving pointers on good places to eat in the area... I may have mentioned a bar or two)
Sobel would have got one in the back if he had jumped as Coy Cdr.
Nope, Sobel would have suffered the same fate at Lt. Meehan on D-Day but that story might be coming up.
I think Sobel’s tactical deficiencies were the most dangers situation ( over the abuse). This would have weakened the battalion, much less the company. If Sink was far to engaged in his command not to notice. There must be some military officers politics that needed to play out to remove Sobel. The jump school command might have been Sink’s move. The NJP of Winters was likely a distraction that could have derailed the “promotion” to the jump school command. Sink was the man he has been portrayed. I don’t see him conspiring with a jr. grade officer. Just my opinion.
It seems that Sink couldn't just remove Sobel because of the court martial incident. It likely wasn't a strong enough reason. But having your entire contingence of NCO's resign probably carries a lot of weight (and that's why I think it was all orchestrated)
Sobel would probably have been fragged in their first combat mission.
I absolutely love this series. I can't believe how quickly 10 or 11 minutes can pass while watching these. You certainly leave me wanting more when an episode finishes. Keep up the great work!
Thank you so much. There are plenty more to come in this series.
Tremendous stuff! IMO, Sink assessed the situation and proceeded based on the fact that such a large number of NCOs unanimously analyzing the dynamics the same way led to only one conclusion: the more effective and trusted leader was Winters, not Sobel. Therefore, he placed his bet on Winters. Placing that bet meant Sobel had to go.
Skipping battalion and going straight to the brigade commander is wild af, especially when you're talking some E5 and E6s 😂 Something tells me Sink was happy they did and maybe had a hand in lighting the mutiny embers
Maybe in a TV drama but not in real life. Not only is a military mutiny a dangerous, corrosive, and unpredictable situation no commander would foster but it also reflected poorly on the company, battalion, and regiment.
I admire Winters very much. However, having learned more about Sobel, my heart bleeds for what happened to Sobel after the war. Yes...he was mean. But no one deserves that kind of death or end of life. He should've been treated with more compassion. He was petty. Not evil. And he was on our side. And as his men said...some of his training did do good.
Yeah not everyone is suited for every job. He was clearly very effective with training. But the same talents dont always translate to a combat situations. Training is all about by the book. Combat is all about the seat of your pants.
I've been looking forward to this one - good job.
Everybody knew the charges were chickenshit, and it had to be evident that Sobel was not up to snuff at combat leadership - ironically the mutiny and reassignment saved his life when you consider that the plane he was supposed to be on ended up going down to flak, killing all on board.
As much as you dislike Sobel - you have to think that weighed on his mind.
If flak or the Germans did not get Sobel, he would have been fragged.
Even if Sobel would have landed in Normandy,his own men would have killed him!
I wait for your videos like a kid at Christmas time. This should be mandatory for all new officers and senior staff NCOS. This is human nature at its most naked form. As I said before everyone has had a run in with a Sobel. Problem is sometimes they’re the Colonel or Admiral. Leadership is like a wheel that’s always turning. Sometimes you’re on top, some on the bottom. The beauty of this interaction between Sink, Sobel and Winters is actually quite common in old school scenarios. Seldom does anyone climb up the ladder without someone on top looking out for you. As always awesome work here.
Thank you that's very kind of you to say.
As @longtabsigo stated, fastest 11 minutes. I haven't watched all of "The Band of Brothers" but I am able to do so now. David Schwimmer played that role extremely well when I saw the show. I have known of officers like Sobel, sometimes promoted to their highest level of incompetence. I by no means was perfect. Average at best. But the Sobel's out there sure make serving a royal pain in the arse.
Possibly! I served for 10 years, kinda learned how things worked!! Can't wait for episode 9! 👍👍👍🍻🍻🍻🍻🍻🇺🇸
Thank you, this made me understand the events surrounding the court martial
Excellent series with extraordinary detail. Us readers really appreciate the work that you are doing. With the invasion so close to kickoff and such high regard of the performance thus far from Easy Company, I don't think following through with a court martial or firing squad would even be considered. It seems appropriate that so much effort went into quashing the request to keep the integrity and moral alive to save the mission (D-Day Air Drops) at hand. It would have been highly irregular for a whole Company and their First Officer in command could not be wrong about such an extensive compromise of the inappropriate leadership abilities of Sobel. Sink obviously did his homework to help him come to the right conclusions. The Army just cannot afford to compromise an entire unit for the sake of one man who's battlefield skills are consecutively questionable.
Winters and Lipton faced a similar problem with Lt. Dyke, during the Bulge. Couldn't just replace him, just because. Winters did the right thing, in replacing him with Spiers, during the attack on Foy, but not until after a number of Easy Co. men had been killed and the attack was faltering.
Thank you that is much appreciated.
Don Malarkey had a different take on the saluting incident. He said that as they were approaching each other Sobel darted across the street and Winters immediately followed suit so he could get his salute. Its where he said the famous "we salute the rank, not the man". Malarkey said it wasn't Winters being his best.
He also said that there was a mutual respect between the two men. Malarkey definitely had a soft spot for Sobel.
I understand that Sobel might have been better in life after WW2, based on this he could have compromised so many people if he actually dropped in.
He was not a person to follow if he can't understand a compass.
Another great video. I was curious what became of Winters' court martial, since it was glossed over in the miniseries. Thanks for posting :) Keep 'em coming!
It was never held.
Executive Office (XO) or 'Extra Officer'.
Sobel presented a double edge sword to Col. Sink. On one hand he did a outstanding job training perhaps on of the best units in the military. Only outshined by the Alamo Scouts. On the other hand with reports Sink received from simulated combat training and operations. He had to know Sobel was not cutout to command troops in combat. Especially in the upcoming D Day operations. This situation was probably something that came along gift wrapped to solve the situation. By transferring Sobel to command the jump school he knew those personal would get the proper jump training they needed. By demoting the two non coms and basically scaring the crap out of the others. Made them realize this was no game. When could have put them on a wall and shot. Finally when it comes to Winters from those same training and combat simulations he knew Winters was a tactically sound officer. That could think on his feet and improvise. That could not have been illustrated better during the attack on Foy when Winters was going to run out and Sink had to remind him of his job. Winters chose probably the most qualified platoon leader in the division in Spears without thinking to relieve Norman Dike.
Yes I'm pretty sure Sink had Sobel worked out from day one and used him where and when he saw fit, making sure to remove him from any type of combat role for the rest of the war (except D-DAY where he was basically an observer).
The trouble is,sometimes it is almost impossible to determine a man’s grit in real combat situations!Especially as a leader ,a lot of platoon leaders were killed or badly wounded in Viet Nam,because they cared so much for the welfare of their men,and then there were the ones who didn’t,or were unqualified!Roll the dice!Viet Nam 1967 1968!
Sobel really does come across as a complete and utter Charlie Uniform November Tango, the kind of officer who'd have been fragged in Vietnam and definitely the kind of officer to never be trusted in combat.
Winters on the other hand exemplified what a battlefield officer should be.
There is mo way that Sink "orhestrated" the mutiney. If dink knew sobel wad so bad that hechad to "orchestrate" a mutiny in irder yk transfer him, then all he had yk do us just transfer him anyway. He didnt need to make up a reason. Aldo if he "orchestrated" it in order to help Winters then he gsoled because einters was made mess officer until he could be returned to easy company.
If dink wanted sobel out and winters in then all he had to do is assign sobel to the parachute school.
Once there was a court martial the situation became a lot more difficult where other regimental staff were involved. Sink may have been close to transferring Sobel as the invasion drew nearer but Sobel may have beaten him to it.
I’ve watched all of your episodes. Very well done. A proper backstory great facts weaving into the series. One of the best series ever made. Not sure where Mork and Mindy landed on the top charts though. 😂
Thank you.
I do find it interesting that mess hall duty is kind of a punishment for officers.
It's probably one of the hardest working MOS, day to day.
I would think if you had an injured officer on soft duty, you might place him there to recover.
He isn't the one hauling 50 lbs bags of grain...potatoes ....
The funny thing about it is that the surviving members of Easy Company were interviewed for a documentary - I think it went with the series. When they were asked who do you think did the most to prepare you for the invasion and months ahead to a man they all said Sobel
Col. Sink was a West Pointer. Those guys have rules and regulations drilled into them HARD. I find it very difficult to believe Sink set up Sobel, as his West Point ingrained sense of honor would not have allowed him to countenance the "mutiny". More so, his sense of honor would not have allowed him to "punish" the fake mutineers. Instead, two NCOs got shipped out to other units, and one broken to private. So, I don't think Col. Sink was in on it, but recognized the seriousness of the problem, and salvaged as much of Easy Company as possible.
I think Cornel Sync could see that Sobel was a disaster in the field. The NCOs jumped command, and it became an easy way to get rid of Sobel and rescue Winters from the court marshal. The pettiness of the circumstances of the court martial was easy to see.
Harry Horton smiling at Winters tends me believe that they did something a bit dodgy to resolve the whole thing.
Winters should'a been retired/ended his career as at least a full Bird.
If he had of stayed in the army he would have and maybe more. He probably would have been awarded the MOH in the end as well.
By his own admission, Winters lacked the social/political skills to facilitate further advancement. Reaching colonel in the US Regular Army would have required him to maneuver and schmooze in ways he wouldn't have respected so it's for the best that he left after the war.
@@dlxmarks He was called back. He requested Ranger school which he passed, he was slated to go to Korea He served a stint at Ft Dix as a training officer for officer candidates going to Korea. He became disillusioned with the quality of the candidates. While waiting to be shipped out he was offered a choice between staying in or resigning.....he chose the latter.
@@JeffY-y3z Yep, he was recalled although because he had a young family by then, he tried working his relationship with General Tony McAuliffe to get excused. The one good thing was that it gave him the chance to leave the declining Nixon Nitration Works where a big part of his management job had been laying off workers and move his family from New Jersey to Pennsylvania.
@@JeffY-y3zYep, he was recalled although because he had a young family by then, he tried working his relationship with General Tony McAuliffe to get excused. The one good thing was that it gave him the chance to leave the failing Nixon Nitration Works where a big part of his management job had been laying off workers and to move his family from New Jersey to Pennsylvania.
Fascinating stuff! You mentioned previously that you believed Capt Sobel had spent some time in combat. I’d be interested to know in what capacity and how he performed after all of the serious concerns of his cadre of NCO’s. I’m fascinated by the psychology of it all and like to draw threads of cause and effect. It seems that Sobel was certainly wrestling with some demons of his own and a serious lack of confidence might be one way to understand his “leadership” style. It might even be hypothesised that his small exposure to combat could’ve highlighted to himself just how unsuitable he was for the roll as a leader of men further exacerbating his low self esteem. A poor, tortured soul for sure and one who should not be forgotten (that for whatever motivation), raised his hand to step into the line of fire at a time when the whole world needed men like that. May he rest in peace.
Sobel saw combat on D-DAY when he jumped with regimental HQ and supposedly led a mixed unit of paratroopers against a German machine gun nest, knocking it out. He was awarded a bronze star and purple heart in 1944 and as Normandy was the only place he saw action the story must be true.
@@War_And_Truth thanks, I remember that from one of your previous episodes. I guess it would’ve been amazing to have verification of the action from some of the troops on the ground with him.🤔
@@deethy19 Yes I agree.
I doubt the mutiny was 'orchestrated, as you suggest- or Colonel Sink would not have handed out the punishments he did, of demotions and transfers. He would not have done so if they had been following his orders, even if said orders were 'unofficial' .
There was only one demotion (Ranney) and he was reinstated. Harris was transferred but if Sink was really serious he would have booted him out of the regiment. A mutiny is about as serious an act as youll get.
What happened to Harris >? Ranney was busted but the real leader or the protest was Harris, a 501 PIR Hero ?
What happened to Harris ? BOB was reasonably near to the story. But who was Harris and what happened to him ?
Harris transferred to the Pathfinders and was killed at Carentan.
Well done with the documentary and this particular part of both mens time in service. As much as Sobel was easy to dislike, he didn't deserve to die the way he did, or not to have the truth cleared up between reality and film..as I dare say hollywood. I do remember reading and seeing online Winters saying thet the extreme training and abuse Sobel put them through, actually may have saved thier lives during the bulge. Thanks again, never forget. 🇺🇸🎗
Sink coming down so hard noncoms was uncalled for. He failed to recognize the severity of the danger Sobel posed in the field. Sink for all his by the book gungho for the 506th I don't see him orgistrating the noncom mutiny. If he had the punishments would have been less severe.
or, he had to in order to give the appearance he didn't already know that the noncoms were right.
Whether the NCOs were justified or not, Sink had to make an example out of them regardless. Now of course in hindsight, the NCOs were right, but Sink still had to maintain precedent for the NCOs pulling off such a stunt. In the end a few had to be sacrificed for the greater good. Seems unfair, but it was necessary when you have a tight knit chain of command, especially for a division like the 101st.
@IAmAFamel it wasn't hindsight at all. They had a grievance and this was the only redress they had of that grievance. Thankfully at least in the modern times enlisted folks have a more clear path for redress of a grievance with this kind of reprocity by the chain of command.
Your doing a great job on this series. I can't wait to see the next episode. Im having the same excitement to see your videos as I am to see the HBo series. Great job !!!?
I really appreciate that, makes it worth my while.
Its call leadership and presence.
Great video.
Shame Sobel didn’t write a memoir.
His transfer probably saved his life.
Wonder if the military has recommendations for when your skill set doesn’t match the role.
No shame there. As a civilian, I got promoted to a c suite position that just wasn’t me. I had to leave the organization on my own accord. Never figured out how to explain to colleagues. Funny that my children understood the most.
I think Sink always had Sobel where he wanted him (well away from combat)
Yawn, deploy to uk Spend years chasing skirts and training , fight for 10 months , war over😂
I think that Sobel fella looked a lot like Ross in friends..
Just less whiney and annoying. LOL
Winters looks like an alien from Dreamcatcher . . . or maybe Henry VIII. Both very similar.
It's not for us to know! This is the US Army and not a Sunday Ice Cream Social.
Colonel Sink recognized two things. First was that Winters was a natural leader and the second is that his men would follow him into combat.
I can’t help but think of the book/ movie The Caine Mutiny. Just like the movie would Capt Sobel been a better officer with the officers support? I don’t want to ruin the movie for those who may not have seen it so I’ll say no more. I’m interested in hearing what others think.
Soble emphasized on Land Navigation yet, he socked at it.
Well done! Your series is so informative. I am learning so much. Scot, PhD.
Great to hear!
Definitely, after getting a handle on the matter it probably became clear how he could reestablish continuity in the company & do right by Sobel…
Sobel missed his true calling as a MacDonald's shift manager.
Failure to develop junior officers would be a court marshal-able offense 🤪
Winters gets shoot by firing squad after being declared guilty at the court martial he demanded.
Sobel had a very sad life - attempted suicide but just blinded himself and did not dire. Ten years later he died of neglect and starvation.
Sobel was scum if he would have made it to combat his own men would have fragged his add
I’m not sure if you’ve done a video on Lt. Shanes yet, but that would be really interesting since he was left out of the series. I also heard of Shanes speaking badly of Winters, which I was very surprised to hear about.
Do you mean Ed Shames? I haven't heard that about Winters but I'm definitely going to do a video on him in the near future.
Interesting narrative.
What would be very interesting, Sir, is if you would explain how the 506th performed in Operation Market Garden. We all know that operation didn't yield the desired results, but Antwerp had been secured alliwing the Allies a port for resupply
That's coming when I do Winters in Holland.
Winters does praise Sobel in the book
Excellent series, thank you. I've seen two separate interviews with Sgt. Guarnere where he said that the "mutiny" didn't happen as depicted in Band of Brothers. He said that he and the other NCO's presented themselves to Sobel and ripped off their stripes. Naturally, Sobel was angry and made a big fuss but, according to Guarnere, there was nothing he could do. This is what lead to Sobel's transfer. Funny how Winters has a different memory of the event. I wonder which is more accurate.
That's an interesting side to the story. They are probably both true in some respect.
sobel should just have a slip and fall
OMG ... The the story is true ...
Outstanding. Band of Brothers is without any doubt my favourite WWII War drama series. The stories, acting, direction, locations, and effects set new standards for the genre. Nothing else has even come close.