SawStop vs. Shopsmith : What if David was 70 years old when he faced Goliath?
Вставка
- Опубліковано 23 сер 2024
- ✅ SHOP NOTES: In a recent video Matt from @371Woodworks let a great discussion about SawStop and their patent protection practices, as well as their attempts to mandate the use of their technology. In this video, I'm making the best of my time trapped in a hotel to discuss how this MIGHT effect Shopsmith tool users in the future. What are your thoughts?
A couple important links:
🎬 Here's Matt's @731Woodworks video: • The Hater's Guide to S...
🎬 Here's Fran's @FranLab video: • Talking About The SawStop
🎬 Another interesting video on patents and trade secrets by Fran: • Patent Trolls and Your...
🎬 Here's James’ @StumpyNubs video: • Debunking the SawStop ...
🎬 Finally, here’s a video of mine where prolific inventor and owner of FastCap, Paul Akers, sits down to discuss patents and patent infringement: Are Knock-Offs a Fair Fight? A Conversation with Paul Akers from FastCap: • Are Patent Knock-Offs ...
🟢 This is the link for the original Shopsmith safety kit: www.shopsmith....
🟢 This is the pair of long-reach feather boards: amzn.to/3IzBBxI
🟢 This push stick looks very similar to the Shopsmith, but with additional rare earth magnets: amzn.to/3ScicpL
🟢 Here are links to my favorite 9" long T-handle "Shopsmith Toolbox" 5/32" Hex Wrench: amzn.to/3sm3NcJ
✅ Visit www.MyGrowthRin... and join the conversation by becoming a FREE Channel Member! Details under "Explore Channel Membership".
✅ If you aren't ready or able or interested in joining the channel, you can always support the channel by watching, clicking the thumbs-up, commenting, sharing, and by clicking through the provided links whenever you are shopping on Amazon or eBay. You don't even need to purchase the items these links lead to, but by going through these links they'll reward us with a small "finders fee". Thanks in advance for the support!
Visit www.MyGrowthRin...
Follow on Instagram @MyGrowthRings
I also blog at www.tool-hunter...
and shopsmith-tool-...
A few viewers have requested I provide affiliate links to help them find the products I use and as a way of supporting the channel through commission. If you purchase a product or service with the links I provide, there is no additional charge to you. I always recommend shopping around for a better price. Thank you for supporting My Growth Rings!
#SawStop #371Woodworks #Shopsmith
![[UA] Team Vitality проти NAVI | IEM Cologne 2024](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/wttO1zVRTC0/mqdefault.jpg)
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #1 НАЧАЛО ПУТЕШЕСТВИЯ [Новый сезон] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/380Q7gLWGvk/mqdefault.jpg)
I’ve followed sawstop from the beginning. It was an interesting journey. He didn’t intend to become a manufacturers. He tried to market it but all the name brands didn’t want to make their saw’s safer because they were afraid of law suits for all the saws sold before they put the safety devices on. Plus thought it would be costly and other reason. The big names are equally the blame for the lack of safer table saws. Saw stop proved to them you could make a top quality professional saw and compete with the big boys both in quality and cost. Saw stop has a top notch system for making alignment and setup easy.
Then they made a quality contractor and job site saw that is cost competitive. I have saw stop and two Shopsmith’s I used them all as tablesaw.
When we going into our shops we need to think Safety, Safety, and Safety! I value all 10 of my digits.
Thank You ShopSmith for promoting safe woodworking.
Great video!
The primary function of patents is NOT to “protect inventors”. It is to encourage invention that will, after a reasonable period of exclusivity, become part of the public domain.
You are correct, Peter. It was late and I misspoke. This isn’t the first time I’ve talked about patents on the channel, so hopefully I represented the concept better on one of those videos. Scott
@@MyGrowthRings - No worries. It’s a particular cause of mine to remind people of this, I apologize if that came off a bit harsh.
@@bunkie2100 I get it. I’m the same with some topics.
Our local community college sold all of their Delta table saws and replaced them with SawStop table saws. I think that was a wise move since most of the students are eighteen to twenty-one year olds. An age group that may not have always be thinking clearly when around power tools. I purchased a used Shopsmith 510 and have used it safely for over twenty years. If you keep the saw and jointer guards in place you are safe. Also, use a push stick and feather boards for and additional level of safety. In my garage, no one is allowed to use any power tool if they are tired or had a cold one. Common sense is the best safety feature.
I agree, in that environment SawStop is ideal.
Good video. Glad to see the dry spell has ended.
I’m kind of on the fence about this topic. On one hand, I feel somewhat that a person should benefit from their ideas, but I feel an obligation to better the lives of my fellow woodworkers with those ideas.
I guess since it’s NOT my intellectual property, I can stand on this side of the street and throw rocks at SawStop all I want, and it won’t amount to a hill of beans.
I’ll just say, I someday hope to own a large enough space to own a SawStop saw. Till then, I’ll just keep all my guards in place, and keep my hands well clear of the spinning blades! ❤
Good plan, Albert!
Great Vid as usual. Thanks Scott.
Thanks, Paul.
I watched Matt's video when it came out. Very good video. Like I commented on his video, I know it's a money thing. I understand that sawstop should make money on their invention, but they should allow things to be shared with other companies cheaper than what they were asking. It would save thousands of accidents yearly. If anything, sawstop could come up with a setup that could be installed on other brands of saws and be sold directly to the public. I'm sure there would be people who wouldn't install it correctly and get hurt, then turn around and sue them though. Thanks Scott for sharing this.
Your take on this is right on! Perfect timing! Thanks Scott!
Thanks, Bob.
Great discussion! Scott, and Matt! Boooo to sawstop!
Doood.. that’s harsh! (I get it, though)
Good info! Thanks for sharing! I wasn't aware of the Shopsmith history.
The Shopsmith Tools were really the tip of the spear of the DIY surge after World War II when they launch their first product in 1947. Users of multipurpose tools fall into a bit of a niche category today. The Shopsmith company continues to produce them in Dayton Ohio as they have for almost 50 years. Matt, thanks again for bringing up the topic and I do enjoy your channel. Scott
If Sawstop had offered their technology for free in the beginning, I still think nobody would have used it. Licensing costs aside, adding the technology to a saw still would cost money. The extra cost of the technology would have priced their lowest tier saws too much over their competitors, and as Matt said in his video, they didn't want to offer it only on their top tier saws because of legal concerns. (They feared a plaintiff attorney telling a jury "so people who can afford a $3k saw are worth protecting, but people who can only afford $300 aren't?") Also, the terms they were offering the other manufacturers weren't exorbitant - they were pretty much in keeping with typical technology licensing deals.
What makes a person a patent troll isn't whether they bought the patent or not. The key is that the patent is made with no desire to actually use it to create a product. Instead it's used as a trap to sue others for infringement. A lot of the patents are extremely vague and broad reaching, and a lot of the lawsuits are of dubious merit, but companies settle because it's cheaper than fighting the suit. That's clearly not what Sawstop did with their patents.
It pays dividends to be a patent attorney inventor!
Just wanted to say love your videos. I bought 2 used shopsmiths. Learning about them before I start using it. Thank you
Thanks! Glad you found your way here and welcome to the Shopsmith family!
Scott… you hit on a key point when you were talking about the man who lost his fingers…
A friend of mine is a retired carpenter. He started when he was 14. His dad was also a carpenter and brought him onto his job sites as an apprentice. So, let’s say he had a four year apprenticeship before he hired onto his first real paid carpentry position. At 69 years of age, he still has all of his body parts in place and just a few aches and pains from the work.
At any rate, years ago, I was building a small shed. The walls and roof were corrugated metal clad. I didn’t know what I was doing so, he offered to come by and show me how to put the metal on… but, that was going to be on Saturday.
I couldn’t just wait. I knew that I could put the roof on by myself. So, I hoisted the first sheet up and grabbed my hammer. In those days there were no screws. Just galvanized ring shank roofing nails with lead washers. And, the practice was to put them into the crown of the corrugations.
As I struck the first nail it failed to pierce the tin. Instead, it skipped to the side and slipped down the corrugation. Fortunately for me, the leather glove absorbed most of the impact of the hammer. My thumb stung a little bit but not bad enough to discourage me from trying again.
On the next attempt, I paid more attention. After taking care to center the nail in the crown… I gripped it as tight as I could and swung harder. It worked!
I thought that I had unlocked the secret to punching nails through sheet metal. By the time I got enough nails in to hold the sheet in place, my nail holding hand was cramping… but, I decided to soldier on.
I grabbed the second sheet and laid it in place with the corrugations overlapped. In my mind, I knew that punching a nail through two layers was gonna be tougher… but, having survived a dozen or so previous nails I was undaunted.
With the nail gripped as tightly as possible and perfect alignment, I struck at it with a mighty blow. It was at that exact moment… as the hammer was falling that I knew it wasn’t going to end well. No leather glove in the history of mankind was going to save my thumb if the nail didn’t punch through… and then reality took over. I can still feel the outcome today. My thumb aches when I recall the impact of my decision to complete the strike.
Scott, that was my first (and only) lost fingernail.
Come Saturday morning, my buddy showed up. He immediately noticed the bandage on my thumb and broke into a grin.
I told him what had happened and he nodded as I related the details. I ended my saga by asking him, “What is the secret?”
He reached into his nail bag and grabbed a beat up old pair of slip jaw pliers. Then he said, “These are for the most of the nails. You should drill the double laps, because you will dent the metal if you don’t.”
But, then he passed in the piece of wisdom that stuck with me the most… “Your big mistake was that you didn’t listen to the little man in your head. You know, the guy that’s screaming DON’T DO IT!”
Scott, I consider that purple thumb nail a small price to pay for a life lesson that has kept me safe through hundreds of situations. Just knowing that I needed to keep in touch with that ‘Little Man In My Head’ has averted far more injuries than the conventional advice “Pay Attention” ever did.
I have built fixtures, used safety devices, over done work holding contrivances and flat out stopped to think about it far more times from ‘That Little Man’ than I can begin to count.
So Scott, having a Saw Stop type device is a plausible safety device… just like a blade guard or a push stick. And, being careful is good advice too. But for me, developing a healthy relationship with my ‘Man’ has been the real Fail Safe in my life.
What a great lesson, Dave. Thanks for sharing it and now I’m having phantom thumb pains! Scott
@@MyGrowthRings I feel your pain… no pun intended!
Great comparison on a company's approach to safety. One makes a product and thinks more of protecting itself and another to protecting both itself and it's users.
Hi Scott, always great content. Thought of you while in High Point last week, but didn't want to seem like I was stalking you so I didn't try to find you. I have been considering a SawStop for years (still have all my fingers) and was really put off by their refusal to share and their aggressive pursuit of encroachments on their patent, however, they did offer to license the technology years ago and had no takers. Maybe they wanted too much in return and now are essentially saying too late, too bad. The fact that they make a great product will eventually make me a buyer.
I agree with you, and think the tool is pretty special. Literally, my only beef is that they’ve tried to mandate the use of their design without sharing it. I’m a big fan of capitalism, but for me that pushes things a bit too far. Who knows, that might’ve been their plan all along had they gotten their way with the consumer product safety commission. But we’ll never know. Scott
having the government mandate safety equipment has a long history and the seat belt is a good example. Some of us are from the generation that started out in cars without seatbelts. We also remeber the annoying seatbelts of the 80's that alarmed continually or disabled the car if they were not used. This resulted in people leaving the seatbelts buckled continually while the cars occupants sat on them.
With respect to the possibility that a product such as the shopsmith could be driven out of business because it cannot be be redisigned to accomodate the safety feature, there are examples of that as well. The VW Beetle stoped US Production in the late 70's because of the mandate for new bumpers that were not required in other countries. Mexico and Brazil continued to sell beetles while they simply didn't exist here. I have heard that the DADO blade is illegal in some countries.
All that said, my concern here is two fold:
1) That REQUIRING a patent item be installed and the patent holder paid for the right will drive some tool makes out of business while those that remain become prohibitively expensive. Gone will be the days of $200 contractor table saws used by so many Handymen. There is a reason patents expire.
2) Will the next step will be to outlaw the older tools because of it's lack of the new tech. Will drills, circular saws and routers be oulawed ?
All very good points and examples!
If I didn't buy products from companies that did things I don't like or agree with I would probably own very few things. I own a SawStop, and it is a great saw. The safety features are worth every penny. I also own a Shopsmith, and it is a great machine as well, but I very rarely ever use the table saw function.
Well, sad, and you are exactly right. And I buy some products from companies that have outright said that they didn’t want me to do business with them!
Good times, good memories.
Safe travels Scott
Thanks!
Thanks for the great video Scott 👍 I have used my 520 tablesaw for many years and appreciated the safety devices that came with it, especially the blade guard system. The dust collection is very good, especially compared to most saws that I have operated. I am sure that the Sawstop is very nice, but not something that most of us can afford. I am sorry that you are stranded. 🙏 Get home safely and soon 🙏
I use a Mark V 510 as it is designed, and it works without accidents. I have had my machine since the mid 80's. Think safe, be safe and you are safe. Thanks, Shopsmith
Our attention and commitment to safety is really the linchpin.
Scott, I really like the thumbnail graphic - very professional looking. Is this the start of a new image?
I doubt it. My graphic skills are just about zero! But thanks for saying so.
Double billing for me today! 😂 I messaged you on Patreon. Anyway, great video, Scott. My cabinet-maker brother-in-law loves his SawStop, though less for the safety feature (he was an EOD in the army, so you know he’s a little crazy to begin with) and more because he just finds it to be a well-made table saw. And while I use a dedicated table saw for most of my sawing work now, he still thinks *I’M* crazy for ever sawing on the Shopsmith. But we both have all our fingers (so far!) because, as you implied, safety and common sense are inseparable.
(the following is way too long and no one needs to read it)
Finally watched the video after learning how to comprehend and follow simple instructions. Have to say it's another great video Scott, you covered the topic very well. You made the most salient point at the end, Volvo and Shopsmith did not have the same kind of investment as SawStop in the technology they allowed others to use free of charge. SawStop's whole business is their saw safety system.
I wouldn't classify SawStop as a patent troll because they make and sell products based on their patents. Real patent trolls don't make anything, they just sue companies that want to use their protected technology. And it's a racket too, once the patent is issued there's little chance of arguing the technology wasn't novel or any other required criteria, once in court you can either show your prior use of the technology or argue about how much money you'll pay them.
Now any company that has such patents would promote legislation requiring use of that or similar technology, that's just good business. But when they have a sort of have a monopoly on the that type of technology I want to know how much they would charge other companies to license it and under what terms. Would they sell the parts they use in their own saws to other table saw manufacturers at a reasonable price? If I were the competition I'd want to make sure legislators ask the same kind of questions. It might also be a very different matter to require businesses using table saws to have this kind of technology for employee protection. I don't think my own table saw's inherent danger is a public concern though.
( Interesting case to consider, all your life you may have been to barber shops where they keep all their tools in a big jar of blue liquid, usually something called Barbicide. That product wasn't invented until 1947 and before that there were few regulations requiring barbers to maintain sterile tools. The inventor managed to have disinfectants required in every state, and in some of them his particular brand was required. All this because the inventor used to get sores on his head after getting haircuts. His work led to more sanitary conditions in the cosmetology trade nationwide.)
So IMO SawStop needs to be able to enforce their patents so they can profit from them. Without such patent protection the company might not exist, and other inventions wouldn't either. We do need to watch out for never ending patents based on tiny incremental changes to a prior patent and other such issues that arise in trademark and copyright protection. That kind of stuff can get out of hand. And the courts need to examine the validity of patents and validity of claims of infringement, but I won't blame any company for working within the system.
(if you are reading the last paragraph first note that the previous is way too long)
Finally, I wonder if Shopsmith could do something with a detachable clutch mechanism, perhaps magnetic, where the blade could swing back and down on an arm or some other guiding mechanism once it is no longer coupled to the spindle. I'm sure it would have to move back in order to clear the way tubes. And if the swinging mechanism is fast enough does the blade need to be stopped at all? I wonder if SawStop attempted to make a retracting blade that didn't require braking.
Another example of this subject would be perhaps the oldest discovery for man; fire. What I choose to use to light a camp fire, fireplace, charcoal grill, or tobacco pipe, etc...
A). A match, that stays lit until I put it out, or it burns itself out.
B). My trusty old Zippo lighter, that stays lit until I close the lid, or it runs out of fluid.
C). A butane (Bic) lighter, that only stays lit while I hold the button down.
So, which is safest?
Who's at fault if I get burnt, or set myself or something on fire? The manufactures fault? A government committee?
Would it be unfair for Bic to get in cahoots with the U.S. government to ban matches and Zippo lighters, because they deem them unsafe compared to Bic's own products? If that were the case, should I expect Bic or the government to light my fire for me, for my own protection?
In the end, it will always be the end users responsibility for safety, 100% of the time. Your choice is your own.
That’s a wonderful analogy, Chad! Well said.
@@MyGrowthRings Sometimes I'm smarter than I look. It always surprises somebody. I often remark to them that I should where a sign around my neck that says: "Hi, I'm Chad, and I know some stuff".
Great video, Scott!
Thanks, Lysol!
Thanks for another informative video Scott.
My dad has the stop saw and it works great. Some problems are if the wood is moist or if there's a metal it will activate. He has activated it a couple of times and has been able to save the blades. The mechanism cost $80+ to replace.
A note, the mechanism on the sawstop can be deactivated so it won't trigger if you needed to cut damp wood.
One option you didn't mention would be to essentially make a contractor saw type solution that ran using the spindle and mounted like the planet. Doing so would also potentially allow tilting blade and raising blade, which would address two of the primary beefs that folks have with the shop Smith system
I know what you’re saying, but that would add so much complexity to the design that you might as well just buy a tablesaw.
@@MyGrowthRings Very true - though I think that glosses over the other values of the overall system (variable speed, floating tables, etc). The same could be said for many of the SPTs (i.e. why not just buy a standalone bandsaw, why not buy a standalone planer, etc.). Festool's systainer sized table saw has some interesting features in a small form factor, and the sawstop contractor saw is in the same size-realm as the SS mounted planer.
Certainly lots of engineering challenges would abound, such as whether an activation would cause damage to the way tubes or other system parts. But I think the up side (beyond the basic safety thing) could be nice since it could address the "bad table saw"/tilting table complaints as well.
@@MyGrowthRings I was thinking the same as Jon, have a box with a spindle, raise/lower and tilt blade mechanism. Use a belt or CV joints to transmit the power from the spindle. to the SPT spindle. use the existing main table sit into the SPT instead of the carriage. use all the existing saw arbors, guards, etc, If the SPT had a way to electronically de-couple from the drive train while it dropped the blade (magnetic clutch?),, then only the blade and arbor would need to be stopped and the motor and drive train could coast to a stop on it's own time, which would minimize the inertia to be overcome, and shock to the system.
This would also give the advantage that the whole extended table system could stay at a fixed height,
Ron Dyck
At this point in the patent life, seems SawStop could man up and offer reasonable licenses to others as a good faith effort. It would be a win, win. As a wise man once said, you can only eat one steak at a time.
$15 per saw seemed reasonable…
Scott, thanks for another great video! It appears that stopping a spinning Shopsmith spindle or raising the table are not options to imitate the Sawstop. You mentioned the saw by Bora; was that saw too similar to Sawstop that they had to pull it from the market? Their legal department should have detected issues long before the item went into production...jim
Hey Jim. The competitor is Bosch, not Bora, and to my eye their approach should have been allowed, but the courts determined that two of the details of their saw infringed on one or another of the 90+ patents owned by SawStop.
Good discussion.
Thanks, Brad.
It's my understanding (and I may be all wet on this) that there are multiple patents on the SawStop table saw and some of them are beginning to expire. The advantage of having Patent Attorneys holding SawStop's patents is that they can modify, change, or add to those patents to keep them in force...all at a more reasonable cost and without the risk of losing the patents. It may be cleaver but I personally think it is selfish.
Hey Andy. Late last year, sawsmith lost an appeal to allow them to extend one or two of their patents, so at least, for some, the end is near.
This technology is exactly why I sold my Shopsmith and bought a Sawstop -- I just never felt comfortable using the saw function of the Shopsmith. I have had no regrets, despite the cost.
You absolutely made the right choice for you. That’s all that really matters. Scott
If you watched Matt’s video, you know that Sawstop first tried to sell the technology, rather than to become a manufacturer. Everybody said “No Thanks”. The fees might have added a few hundred dollars to each saw and everybody would have been safer. So, without takers, they built their own. Not owning one, but from what I can gather, Sawstop not only has the safety feature, but is also a high end saw on its own, thus the price. As far as sharing, I see no reason since they tried that route already without success. I support their ability to make all the money they can with their invention.
I support everything that you say, but for me, they cross the line when they tried to get their technology mandated.
@@MyGrowthRings Yes, that does have a bit of an odor. But in today’s society, where no one takes personal responsibility for their actions and expect someone else to protect them from their own stupidity, it is a smart business opportunity. Quite frankly, I am surprised the government has not jumped on it already. Even more surprised the EU has not mandated it first.
It would have added $160 to a $2000 saw. $24 to a $300 saw. Prices vary that much throughout a season. I think that argument was a bit overblown.
@@mesoed The 8% was for the rights to use the tech, that doesn't include the cost of the tech itself and the engineering to add it to all their saws. The first
Sawstop came out in 2004, but their jobsite saw wasn't until 2015, and their compact jobsite saw only came out last year. Very likely there were some technical issues that had to be worked out in order to make it work in a smaller platform than a cabinet or contractor saw (which costs money). Each of those manufacturers would have had to pay engineers to work out the compatibility issues with their saws. And then, there is the actual cost of the materials that go into the saw. It wasn't going to be just a small $24 increase on a $300 saw. And as this video points out, stopping a blade causes tremendous kinetic energy to transfer into the saw (which caused the shopsmiths to flip over). Those small $300 jobsite saws would need something to capture that inertia and dissipate it, so that doesn't happen (which is possibly why it took so long for Sawstops jobsite saws to come out). Which just means more engineering, more materials, and more money (not just an extra $24).
I'm but a rookie Shopsmith user (>1 year with mine), and I have to say the table saw is by far the most squirrel-y function for me. It's been tough to maintain consistent body position, hand position, feed motion, etc., with the table height and table angle being different for different cuts. But maybe that's a good thing? Maybe that variety is helping me stay focused and truly *think* about each cut?
While I'm still very much in "cut scared" mode, one thing I've found helpful is rehearsal. I take a "practice swing" at each cut before turning the headstock on. 'Stand here, move here, turn hands over here', that kind of thing. I figure the worst moment to find out my hands are too close to the spinning blade o' death is mid-cut.
Unsure about whether I'll keep using the 520 in table saw mode or move on to a SawStop or something else. Maybe a few years down the line, once I'm no longer "cutting scared" and start getting complacent.
Flesh sensing technology has been around for a very, very long time. Medical instrumentation has used it as a safety feature that I know of since 1976. Applying it to a table saw may be credited to Saw Stop as well as the mechanism to stop & drop the blade. No one will ever know if the Saw Stop safety feature will actually work or not, it’s like testing a parachute-you can’t.
I didn't know about the Shopsmith contribution. That is similar to Westinghouse, I believe, inventing the magnetically closing door to stop children dieing in latched doors and letting anyone use the magnetic door technology ti save children's lives. Michelin Tires did the same with radial technology because radial tiers are so much better, safer. saving lives.
Yep, it was the smart and generous thing to do.
I feel so sorry for Ryobi in that lawsuit. They got so ripped-off by these lawyers. I also feel sorry for Carlos Osorio, if he felt any desperation to take a job with a contractor who did not provide full table saw training, plus no safety tools, and gave him the Ryobi table saw to use with it's standard safety equipment missing.
(!!!)
~ RIPPING HARDWOOD FLOORING FREEHAND (MEANING WITHOUT THE FENCE), PLUS, WITHOUT ANY PUSH BLOCK OR PUSH STICK, AND WITH THE BLADE GUARD AND SPLITTER REMOVED.
The above details from the original lawsuit I always found disturbing. The guy was not even a woodworker or even experienced, working with almost no training for a private contractor doing a flooring job. Lack of flesh-sensing technology was not the problem.
I wonder if these same attorneys still stand by the outcome of that case?
IMO, THE TABLE SAW WAS NOT AT FAULT. IT WAS LACK OF TRAINING, AND WITH SAFETY EQUIPMENT REMOVED, ALLOWING A SUPER DANGEROUS FREEHAND CUT.
You are 100% correct!
I also watched Matt's (731 Woodworks) video and agreed with all his points. But, he mentioned that patents are only for 20 years - I don't believe that to be true. And, I seem to remember that your wife had a business or side business of selling drawings of patents - is that correct? So, are you able to inform us about patents and their lifespan? As always, thanks for the great video. Charlie
Your memory is correct, Charlie. Utility patents today are all 20 years from the day they are filed. Prior to a change just a few years back, there were quite a number of variations on patent terms, and the protection began once the patent was granted. Because they were such a long backlog at the patent office. They change the rules and just made it a standard 20 years from filing. Scott
Would it be possible to have an enclosed table insert act kind of like an elevator and raise the insert up quickly to hide the moving blade?
That’s an interesting idea. It would be complex, but anything that could prevent an amputation is worth considering.
Maybe I missed you talking about this but when do the SawStop patients expire? And does that mean other companies can develop similar products?
Some already have, but they have almost 100 of them, so some details are protected for years to come.
Hey @My Growth Rings, do you think that Shopsmith could build flesh sensing technology into their devices using the DVR to do a quick reverse, and stop, and could it work with all the tools? Also 731 wood works, aka Matt is a great tuber.
That’s a good question, but I don’t think so. They did a number of tests using a sanding disc and a set of brake calipers to see if they could stop the machine on a dime, and when they did it just about completely toppled over due to the stored up power in all of the mass of the machine and the disk. The other option would be to have the table raise quickly in order to cover the blade, but imagine what disaster that would be with any jigs or fixtures or boards that you have on top of the table. I think it’s just a design that’s going to have to be grandfathered if flash sensing technology were to become mandatory.
@@MyGrowthRings WOW, that was a quick response, thanks!
@@mrgunn2726 You hit me at the right moment!
So when are they gonna make aftermarket systems we can install on old radial saw systems if they have the patent already? They aren’t gonna make a Radial arm saw.
I double they ever will or even had any intention in doing so. There are so many things going on in a RAS and if you suddenly stop the rotation of the blade you also have to stop the saw’s travel. I bet they SawStop simply patented the idea as a way of squatting on it.
@@MyGrowthRings exactly. Which is why they mass patented.
I don’t know patent law and haven’t done research before stating this, but if there is no intention of making it for another tool type they carry the patents for, do the patents hold up?
@@billymurphy3 yes, patent protection does not require that the patent be put into production. Likewise, owning a patent doesn’t guarantee that your product will be produced.
less than four years until patents expire
I am probably one of the few woodworkers who is not impressed with the SawStop solution. Risk = Likelihood * Consequence. A spinning saw blade presents several hazards, one of them is hand contact with the point of operation. SawStop's tech actually relies on the user touching the blade! So the total risk value is reduced by reducing the consequence side of the Risk equation.
An alternative, and in my opinion better, way to reduce the Risk value, is to reduce the Likelihood side of the equation. This is Shopsmith's and everyone else's approach. Saw guards, push sticks/blocks, feather guards, and riving knives significantly reduce the likelihood of hand to blade contact, and therefore lowers the overall risk value. However, the Shopsmith approach, such as the use of feather boards and riving knives ALSO reduces the risk to an additional hazard associated with spinning saw blades, which is a workpiece striking the body due to kick back. The SawStop break does not help kickback since it can occur without flesh to blade contact.
Further, Shopsmith's approach is to provide the right tools for the job so that operations are not forced onto the tables saw. A recent Instagram video showed a SawStop user crediting their table saw for a finger save while cutting a circle on the table saw. I said to my self "use a band saw, dummy!"
To offer a rhetorical question, why does SawStop's marketing, especially influencer marketing, often show scenarios where hand to blade contact is most likely? For example, no guard, not riving knife, no push block, no push stick, no feather board. Or shows operations more easily and safely complete with a different tool?
But I have to hand it to SawStop marketing. They have sold the community on an expensive product to reduce the Risk value associated with table saw use when cheap and highly available alternatives were already available.
Absolutely right, Thom. And look at how generous SawStop has been with popular influencers. If you have a big audience, you probably have a free saw stop front and center in your shop. Wasn’t that nice of them?
@@MyGrowthRings according to Jon Cesaro’s very good recent safety video Saw Stop has only give away one saw. But I have seen many videos talking about sawstop with the “includes paid promotion” flag that shows in the first 2 seconds. So maybe not free tools but they have some how receive influencer promotion none the less.
@@woodshopnerdery I know I’ve heard more than one talk about his SS had sent them a saw. We’re they all just hollow boasts?
@@MyGrowthRings “ reached out to me and asked if I wanted to partner with them. I thought it sounded pretty cool so I decided to work with them to make this video. After some back and forth sent me a new < product> so I could show you guys.” Translation, I got a sales flyer in my email, purchased a product, it was shipped to me, and now I hit record on my iPhone.
@@woodshopnerdery Too funny and probably all too real!
Part of me likes the idea of a safe table saw but having it destroy parts of itself to achieve that safety is just a money grab for people who sell those parts, IMO. It's an expensive machine to begin with. If Sawstop were really out to make the world safe from mad finger-eating table saws then they should at least allow people to replenish those consumable parts at below cost and provide plenty of spares with each purchase, not require people to buy ever more profit-making parts from them and only them after each incident. Also, yes, it's regrettable that the Shopsmith is not adaptable to the technology, but that fact will only force me to be more diligent about operating the tool more safely.
I wouldn’t go so far as to say they should offer things below their cost. That is a recipe for the failed business. There’s a psychological principle at work here that by making those consumable parts expensive, people are less likely to miss, behave with their saw. Imagine if I could get free replacements I would probably demonstrate my Saul all the time with a cheap Harbor, Freight saw blade.
@@MyGrowthRings You have a point. Built-in safety systems can make some people behave more foolishly rather than less so. I still think that $100 a pop for a new cartridge plus a new sawblade is asking too much money for the one-time safety they provide, however. The cost of repairs now becomes the driving factor in preventing unsafe behavior. Is it cheaper than microsurgery? Sure, but so is taking a little extra care around any machine that can do harm to the body.
didnt festool adopt sawstop technology ? in UK
Yes, I mentioned it on the screen that SawStop is now owned by Festool.
You’re on to something for sure my friend with the patent/$$$ thing. But, back to history and LOGIC.
I had a grandfather who could only count to nine on his fingers.
Takeaway….. “SAW/Rotating freaking BladE! lessons always at forefront of thought. Not saying I’m NOT going to get electrocuted or loose fingers in the future, but suffice it to say, I’ll not be blaming any manufacturers!
Enjoy your insight.
Poor guy. Well, the good news is that a lot of things are divisible by nine.
Metrics Scott, metrics.
Perhaps not so ironically, Shopsmith offered “first project” designs for a push stick and fence straddler in their owners manual in the 1960s and in DeCristoforo’s books (modern peer tool wood working page 33) …long before they even offered the patented versions in plastic. Second thought…my dad was the original owner of my 1963 SS. He did not opt for the ‘optional’ upper or lower saw guard. When I took the machine, I was acutely aware I had to be responsible of my own safety…and as noted in the video, when the tool starts getting ‘out in front of you’…time to hang it up for the day.
You’re exactly right, and they continue to publish plans for a DIY push stick , push block and fence straddler to this very day.