Dual Destinies in a nutshell: Blackquill: “It’s useless, Wright-Dono. The witness couldn’t be the culprit because at the time of the crime he was checking if he had left the stove on!” Phoenix: “AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!” Athena: “I hear his heart crying. I think a little therapy is in order!” Apollo: “Why am I in the game? This reminds me of my friend…”
The motto of "tell but don't show" was clearly in DD, but started in GK2, and is actually far more common in the latter. For example, we're told that Dogen escaped from prison in Case 5, but we're not shown how he did. We're told that the PIC is a threat, but we're hardly shown anything of it as it's simply a beta version of the Dark Age of the Law. Granted, it's not as hyped but it's still an issue. Courtney threatens to take your badge, but losing results in a terrible game over that makes it lifeless.
Yeah, it's a minor issue in GK2, and it's a big major issue in DD because the trials and the investigations are as the same as the previous games, which proves that there was no difference between the Pre"Dark Age" and the Dark Age itself..
why do we need to see how Dogen escaped? I can agree with the criticism of the PIC, aside from Blaise himself we don't really see them do much, but what does not knowing how Dogen escaped take away from the story?
@@ahumanbeingfromtheearth1502 Because really think "How did he get out?" As it stands, he just shows up out of nowhere just to announce the final boss. It takes away from the story by creating big plot holes and making Dogen's imprisonment feel pointless, especially since we know next to no details about him aside SS-5. How did he break out and why? Why did he go to Edgeworth and how did he find him given he relies on his dog since he’s blind? Why would he betray his master (by blowing his cover) just to save him from De Killer in the end? Why was Dogen content with staying in prison in Case 2, but felt the need to escape in Case 5 just to end the game? These are plot holes that should never have made it into the game, because they destroy Dogen's motivations (thought the Phantom was bad? Dogen has zero motive to betray Keyes who saved his life from the conspirators). He's not driven by motivation to do any of the things he does, he's just a slave to the story. At least Dogen made me laugh over how bad the game was when he showed up to blow his master's cover as the Mastermind. Do you know why Shelly betrayed Engarde in JFA? That's because Engarde ACTUALLY blackmailed De Killer behind his back. Shelly HAS motivation, Dogen doesn't. The plot holes made just from Dogen's offscreen escape make the story less believable as a result.
@@torri776 half of these problems were actually adressed. He escaped prison because Simon stopped the communication with him and he was curious what was going on and he said he will returnto prison. That was probably also why he taked with Edgeworth. We also don't know how exactly he escaped, but he said, that he had connections which enabled him to enter and leave prison whenever he wanted to. He also never betrayed Simon. He literally saved his life in the finale.
@@torri776 there are things that are better left unknown, knowing how dogen escaped jail adds absolutely nothing to the game. the dogen escaping jail is definitely not a "tell but don't show" situation, it would be if it was just mentioned but we actually never saw dogen, but we do see him, he plays a major role near the end of the game, you're either confused or actually not know what "show don't tell" is also there's this thing called suspension of disbelief, not everything has to be 100% realistic, sometimes it's fun to just enjoy the madness of fiction, you're talking about a universe where spirit mediums are real and we have characters with supernatural abilities, and you're getting worked up about a blind killer escaping prison, lol what happened to imagination?
Was looking up "dual destinies bad" on youtube/google, as one does when they are reminded of DD and how much they hate both it and SoJ. That being how I found this video. I think most of the problems with the different games in the series are defined with the different priorities of the writers/devs and what certain fans *want* from the series. Shu Takumi made the series with the idea of it being a series where you get to solve mysteries. Takumi conceptualized the series "gameplay" first. That is how he came to the conclusion to make it about lawyers (as opposed to detectives) with the courtroom and testimony gameplay being the focus. Pointing out contradiction in testimonies with evidence is where the satisfaction of solving the mystery shined the most (after all). I think writing for the series with that in mind shaped Takumi's growth as a writer/"writing style" Whereas Eshiro/Yamazaki took the helm later, when the series was already established and the games were seen as an "adventure" games or "visual novels". With the Investigation games, they went for a more standard/typical "adventure" game set-up with Ace Attorney elements (AA was always sort of an Adventure game, so that makes *some* sense). I have my own gripes with the Investigation games, but I think that is best left for another discussion, lest I drag this on even more. The real focus of this comment should be on DD and SoJ, where they had to adjust to the format of the main AA games. I sort of have to imagine they viewed it more through the lens of "this is a Visual Novel, so we need to prioritize the plot/story to justify this games creation". (and by that I mean, they didn't view the testimony gameplay as "gameplay" in the same sense that Takumi did... Which is further emphasized by the forced new mechanics, in an attempt to add "actual 'gameplay'" to the game, unintentionally implying that the testimony sections weren't "gameplay" enough) I think a lot of this would be better shown with Evidence... Literally, as in, the way Evidence is handled in the different games. A great example of a *GOOD* piece of evidence in the series would be the Teacup in T&T case 3. The teacup is a good piece of evidence because it is both organic to the mystery and inconspicuous in how it is *actually* used in the testimony. If you've played T&T, you probably know what I mean by that. The teacup is obviously related to the murder, and it would obviously be added as evidence to your Court Record for you to use later. But, chances are, you won't realize how *exactly* you are supposed to use it until the testimony where you actually *have* to use it. The teacup doesn't immediately give away how it is used. (Or rather, the writers where smart with how they incorporated it into the mystery) Contrast that with some of the evidence in DD/SoJ. I think the easiest/most obvious piece of evidence would be the Keychain in SoJ-3, where it is obvious how it will be used and why. Too many pieces of evidence in DD/SoJ have this issue where they are obvious in how they are used, and are only used for that specific instance (not to mention some of the bloated evidence pools which is sort of caused by this). Things like the food/murder weapon from SoJ-4, The newspaper in DD-2, The earrings, moon rocks, Phantom profile and etc. in DD-5. (Note: this problem isn't limited to the Eshiro/Yamazaki side of things, but simply more prevalent.) There is only so much you can do with certain pieces of evidences. I think Ceave Gaming did a video on the Topman in Mario Galaxy, and he mentioned something about "affordances in design", and I think that applies to writing and storytelling. Think about any given story concept, and consider how many possible directions you can take a given idea. There are people that like to think that you can do *anything* with fiction/stories/writing, but that isn't really the case. Eventually, you'll come to a point where things overlap and some ideas contradict things, making them a bad direction to go towards (I am thinking about how obvious the direction for SoJ's story was, and everything wrong with it). (This idea of affordance extends into the evidence throughout the games/series) (I want to make a special note that, with the Keychain in SoJ-3, I get the feeling they knew that it was obvious and wanted you to focus on how obvious it is, so that they could possibly surprise you with the twist that SoJ-3 has. Unfortunately, that has its own problems. I would very much recommend checking out "sonocomics" SoJ comics to get what the problem might be.) The Eshiro/Yamazaki side of things prioritizing the plot/story means they are trying to write things in a more *coherent* fashion, which explains a lot of the barebones courtroom moments and evidence that essentially gives its own use away. They are more focused getting the story to go the direction they need it to and it is easier to write it this way, as the evidence is just used as a means getting to the next plot beat in the easiest (to understand) fashion. On the opposite side of things, Takumi trying to focus on the gameplay side of things, is probably what leads to more of those BS moments, like with 2-3, 3-5, or TGAA1-4. This leaves us with a split on what people want out of AA. Do you care more about it from a story or gameplay perspective? If you are more gameplay minded, chances are you prefer Takumi. Whereas, if you are more story/plot minded, it is sort of up in the air which you will prefer. If the BS moments or the lack of overarching story bother you in JFA or AJ bother you, you might be more inclined to prefer Yamazaki, as you'll be more willing to tolerate all the bad things there a bit more. Of course, I am going to let my preferences shine through here a bit, as well as my absolute contempt for DD/SoJ. Chances are, if you prefer the Yamazaki side of things, then the problem with evidence usage and how evidence conveys itself probably never occurred to you. Perhaps you are so caught up in the act of playing the game/trying to figure out the mystery, that it failed to occur to you that some things are just obvious and the writers aren't addressing things fully. Perhaps you are too busy patting yourself on the back, assuming yourself to be *soOoOOooO* smart for figuring something so obvious out (mindlessly indulging on a sense of self-satisfaction). (I am very upset that there is such a rift in the series/fandom and it is just going by with people refusing to actually think in depth about the issues we are facing. My frustration makes me want to say a lot of rude things, so know this is actually me restraining myself.) I am immediately reminded of Fulbright with this. Fulbright being the Phantom is both very predictable *and* unpredictable for all the wrong reasons. The likelihood of the Phantom being some newly introduced character is very low, as its the final case, and making the final villain some random person would be sort of deflating/anticlimactic from a narrative perspective. At that point, all you'd have to do is look in the court record and go through a process of elimination and Fulbright is one of the most likely candidates to be the Phantom. It becomes a complete certainty when you realize the way most of the twists play out in DD. The problem here isn't that I am necessarily smart for figuring this out ahead of time, but rather, the writer clearly didn't consider how/why one might be able to figure it out. Or *WORSE*, the writers knew/understood this, but decided to leave it as is, because the audience would just eat it up and pat themselves on the back for figuring it out as if it were magic or BS that allowed them to predict it, rather than it being basic pattern recognition and a simple understanding of story structure. If you figure it out ahead of time, and put that together with the lackluster evidence/mystery, you are left with an insulting bad/easy/braindead ending. But again, if you are caught up in a feeble sense of self satisfaction and are so caught up in the act of actually playing the game, you might not even consider the issue (or even if there is an issue to begin with). I want to do a second push/recommendation on "sonocomics" SoJ comics... seriously, they are both solid and slightly reflect this issue. (Also, check out their Xenoblade 1 comic, if you played Xeno1, as I honestly think I prefer how they handled some of the story and characters. Certainly had a better pay off on things) I kinda want to give an extra example/go into more detail, but this is dragging on to long. Besides, who knows if this'll even be read?
Do you get some pleasure out of this game? Like the fact that you go "I wanna see people bashing this game because I remember how bad it was" is not normal. Like your first sentence sounds like a shitpost.
Thank you for this lengthy and detailed comment. I personally agree with what you've said and glad to find the same thought process going on in my head with others as well regarding this series. Ace attorney is a very good series but it lacked for me starting with DD and it bums me because I love this series so much, I felt like it dragged on at bits and some bits just sounded unrealistic and straight up silly and I unintentionally started comparing it to other ace games 1-4. Just finished DD yesterday and I don't think I'll tackle TGAA nor SoJ :(
This was a great read. Here are my own perspectives after having finished every game in the series. I consider Shu Takumi and Shouzou Kaga the greatest Japanese writers of all time. This should be telling enough of which writer I deem to be superior (regarding Ace Attorney). Not only is Shu Takumi a brilliant writer in his own right, but as the creator of the series, he is naturally going to understand it better than everyone else, as Takeshi Yamazaki is at best a fan of the series who wrote 4 fanfiction entries that left him burnt out by SoJ due to how much of a general hack he is. This is why I don't understand how GK2 fans deem GK2 to be the peak of the series unless they see Takumi's Ace Attorney, as established by the standards set by the Trilogy, to be FUNDAMENTALLY flawed considering GS3 has a less focused plot than GK2 did, which is all that matters to them. Of Yamazaki's works, I consider the overhated GK1 to be not only his best work, but one of the best games in the series, for the simple fact it stuck to the gameplay first mentality, employed with GK1's new engine. What resulted was GK1 having insanely gripping mysteries with great uses for evidence, all while having a bare bones plot. After GK1 however, Yamazaki's games lacked heavily in the case, logic, and evidence department because he went in the exact opposite direction, which was mind you, very positively received. GK2 and SoJ especially tank in that regard, as I remember Lotta's Testimony and the Hot Air Balloon being so unbelievably obvious as answers to prompts in The Bland Turnabout, not to mention presenting the same Wedding Photograph in SoJ's DLC case time and time again. Outside of a few exceptions (Turnabout Target from GK2 for example is the only case in the game to get the case right, which is why I like it despite it being badly written), Yamazaki's plot-centric cases are usually boring, and half the appeal is just gone for me. That wouldn't be too much of a problem if the plots themselves are good, right? Sadly, with the exception of Dual Destinies (and GK1 for the fact it barely has a plot to speak of), the plots are almost entirely contrived and badly written, and even Dual Destinies' plot is largely a rehash of GS1, coupled with the nonexistent Dark Age of the Law, and poor continuity, all made up ONLY by the insanely enjoyable cast, but that's just me.
@@torri776 It is really telling that with the exception of AJ, all the titles Takumi was majorly involved in(Trilogy, the Layton game, GAA) are all generally agreed to be highpoint in the series while the other bunch of games are very divicive.(And sometimes feel mutually exclusive. I have rarely heard the same people say they like AAI and Turnabout Procecutor 2 both. Most people either hate one or the other for some reason, which seems like a styleconsistency problem if I had to guess)
13:49 although i recall a dialogue in the very first game where someone says "the law is in a dark age so thats why trials only last 3 days" or smth, i might be wrong but i agree with everything else
I love Dual Destinies *as a standalone game*, but as an AJ sequel? Fuck this game. The fact they just act like AJ didn't happen and just sidelined almost all the AJ cast, hell Ema didn't even appear here! I really hate it because AJ is actually my favorite mainline AA game, and to see it not having a continuation just pissed me off But if I judge it as a standalone game. It's really great in my opinion (I really hate 5-2 though). I think it's much better than AAI and the first two AA games. Hell, I can even say that there's no BAD Ace Attorney game. All of them are really great in my opinion, with AAI being the weakest out of all of them.
On the writing of this game, if you remember that Capcom made Mega Man X6 without Keiji Inafune's approval, apparently, a similar thing occurred with this game, that being Shu Takumi, the franchise's writer, was busy with the Professor Layton crossover. However, unlike Inafking's plans of X5 being the end and switching over to MMZ being uprooted by the company, it was said that Takumi initially considered ending the franchise on Apollo Justice, but changed his mind due to positive reviews. Edit: Another note was that the Ace Attorney games under their creator were the trilogy, Apollo Justice, and the Professor Layton crossover, which may provide further explanation.
''it was said that Takumi initially considered ending the franchise on Apollo Justice'' Shu Takumi never wanted to make Ace Attorney 4, Capcom forced him to make it and Tumblr/preddit are not reliable. ''If you allow me to explain to those who don’t know the series: Naruhodō Ryūichi is a young defense attorney who was the protagonist of Gyakuten Saiban 1 ~ 3. While the episodes were all separate stories, the three games formed one big story together. …That story ended with 3. I don’t want to add an episode to that story…''
I like DD more than AJ but i agree, somehow they made Phoenix a weird character in his return as a defense attorney, ngl, i love Athena Cykes and Simon Blackquill, they're just as amazing as Godot from Trials and Tribulations in my opinion and Apollo's story was a trainwreck of story to conclude, moving to SOJ, it's amazing as DD but it has the most lamest main prosecutor to ever exist. And it's safe to say, the writers of DD didn't bother playing the original trilogy.
I am so glad to see someone call this shitfest out for what it is. I hate this game and everything it did to the Ace Attorney franchise. I did a long rant about it on Miiverse back when it was still around. I could at least regard Spirit of Justice as flawed but enjoyable, but Dual Destinies is bad for so many reasons. (Though in hindsight the graphics and music were great.) The hand holding, the downgraded gameplay, Everything about Turnabout Academy. (A high school for lawyers? WTF!) Two major problems with the final case I feel you overlooked. 1. Athena's murder case is basically Edgeworth and Ema Skye's cases mashed together. They weren't even subtle about it calling it the UR-1 incident. The DL-6 and SL-9 incidents were named the way they were to hide what the cases were about both from the player and the characters. Making it a surprise when you learned how everyone was connected to them. Here there's no reason to call it UR-1, the name is given after we learn about the case. It's just there for "WOO! NOSTALGIA!" 2. The Phantom is revealed to be a Master of Disguise, able to impersonate anyone on a whim and yet he never thought to use this ability when I don't know, committing murder! Why risk your life to avoid a security camera when you can just disguise yourself as someone else and call it a day? Why wear a jacket and cover your face to fool a robot into thinking the victim's still alive when you can just disguise yourself as the victim? When Capcom finally localised the Great Ace Attorney, it honestly felt like a breath of fresh air, as I was reminded why I got into the series to begin with. Anyway, I should probably stop now before this turns into another lengthy rant. Great job with the video.
It kinda sucks that so many people hate fuel destinies and spirit of Justice cause they are literally my favorite ace attorney games and either 1. People forget they exist 2. Nobody talks about them Or 3. People hate it
I personally liked Dual Destinies, but I agree that it is one of the worst Ace Atorney, which is a shame because I think the story of Athena and Simon is incredible and case 5 despite having problems is one of the best (In my opinion) So I think is a good game but a bad Ace Attorney. Great video by the way!
I think Spirit of Justice was a bit better, but this and SoJ really needed to stop devoting half of their runtime to Phoenix just being there to be like "Hey, remember the original Trilogy? What a series of games those were, am I right?"
@@SinCity2100 Like, for me personally, the most interesting parts of Dual Destinies and Spirit of Justice were the parts where Apollo and Athena had to deal with cases on their own. They were a bit of duo, building a fun rapport with one another separate from Phoenix. It was great. But then Phoenix kept showing up to be involved, even though he had nothing to do with the plot of either game. He's an attorney again because the fans want him to be, but he has nothing to do with what's going on. And he's the most frequently played as character, even in Spirit of Justice, which is considered "Apollo's game". I feel like Phoenix should just be tied to DLC cases now. Give him a long case; something high profile that lasts three days and gets to show how he can handle more serious things now, but let the new blood have time to shine.
I guess I'll defend the "Dark Age of the Law" a little... The problem with the statement "Manfred, Blaise or Edgeworth were already forging evidence" were just that: rumors. It was implied that they did indeed use dirty tactics to win but there wasn't a single time but we never get to actually see so. Edgeworth, for example, has never forged the evidence on-screen. Manfred was once exposed to force a confession, but that was pointed out by Gregory, and that resulted Manfred getting penalized. For Blaise, well he also got brought to justice by Edgeworth (and Edgeworth became a good guy after Wright saved him in 1-4). The thing is that people finally found hope with Wright becoming a lawyer who managed to point out von Karma's crimes as well as Gant's. Of course people would lose hope if they find out that Phoenix presented fabricated evidence after what he did. For Blackquill's situation... unlike Manfred or Blaise, he was a rookie prosecutor and him getting convicted would mean that the law system, while it looked it was going to change, would always stay the same. At this point people lost all their hope in the legal system as it never changes and stays the same. In addition to that, more competent lawyers saw that forging evidence would make their beloved verdict to happen. It was exactly this fact that more and more lawyers and prosecutors started fabricating evidence or issuing false charges to win after they saw Phoenix doing so. The legendary Phoenix Wright was caught as a forger and that likely caused a lot of them to believe that he always used forged evidence in his previous trials. The Dark Age of the Law, however doesn't go without it's flaws- the first one being that it's... well sort of a retcon (supposedly was there since Blackquill got convicted 7 years ago), it wad never mentioned in Apollo Justice even though AJ supposedly took place in it. As well as it's conclusion that it ended by capturing a spy and clearing Blackquill's name. Other than that I like it as a concept but the execution of it is pretty flawed.
The Dark Age of the Law itself wasn't a bad idea, but I don't like how they used it in DD, it made it look like a big deal and all they did is using this "tell not show" mentality to tackle this topic..
@@SinCity2100 Yeah... I totally get what you're saying. Maybe that's one of the reasons why I enjoyed the DLC case, Turnabout Reclaimed, so much. The Dark Age of the Law isn't mentioned in it and despite being a filler case it had a creative plot and very sad moments. Of course it still has my biggest problem with the game (the fact that it's way too easy and the characters keep telling me what to do and what evidence to present) but the writing was good enough.
The only good games in the 3DS era are the crossover game with Professor Layton and most of Great Ace Attorney 2 (the last section of case 5 sunk things for me)
I would say Dual Destinies is a pretty great Ace Attorney game. It's definately better than Apollo justice, Justice for all and maybe a bit better than Phoenix Wright ace attorney. (I haven't played the Investigations,Spirit of justice and The Great Ace Attorney duology yet).
@@SinCity2100 the presentation got a big upgrade with smooth 3D animations and crime scenes. The soundtrack is great, we finally got orchestral versions of the already existing themes. The pacing of the story is a lot better than ever before, there are no dull moments (this is one of the strength of its' othervise extreme linearity). The humor and character chemistry is probably at its' best in Dual Destinies. The Phantom is good villain.......when he's not in court.
i don’t want to sound like a “all the new stuff is bad i miss the old games” but i really don’t like the 3ds games, it feels like they’re trying to have insanely high stakes but they don’t build them up properly and ace attorney has always been more focused on personal conflicts. aa1’s major conflict is about bringing von karma to justice and phoenix’s goal to save miles, 1-5 is about lana and ema and serves as a bridge between both aa1 and aa2, abd the trilogy and aa4, because of how it expands on the corruption in the legal system, aa2 is about stopping matt from getting away with hurting adrian and celeste and about phoenix miles and franziska all struggling to come to terms with the truth being more important than winning, aa3 is about the fey family and godot’s own internal conflict, aa4 is about the gavins and the mishams and the wrights and apollo is caught in the middle of it and strives to do the right thing. even in the investigations games where there are higher stakes because you’re working with interpol, the yatagarasu started as a group of people trying to do what the law couldn’t, and the mastermind behind aai2 is an abandoned child getting revenge on the people who hurt him. and then aa5 is like ahhh international spy!! he had to sabotage the rocket launch and killed athena’s mother!! why? oh you know. (never elaborates) i feel like a lot of the (valid) criticisms of apollo justice come from it being set up as the start of a new era, and then not getting an actual sequel. aa1 was the start of a trilogy, but it was written as a standalone game without any planned sequels. and even then i don’t think many of them are like. that harmful to the game. sorry this turned into such a long ramble. i love the ace attorney series and that’s kind of why i’m so harsh on the stuff i think is lacking. i do love athena and simon, i think if they actually had their own game with an actual antagonist they could really shine.
@@mutiiYT didn’t say i hate them but as someone who really really liked aa4, aa5 was pretty disappointing even if i do like athena and simon, and i am not fond of aa6 (minus 6-4 that one’s good). i haven’t played dgs1/2 or layton v wright yet
@@sunisverycool1 Oh i see i was just curious thats all. Either way you should play those games you said you havent played when you have time because they are AMAZING
Hugh's scream is horrible, both in the English dub and in the Japanese one. Aside from that, what is your opinion on Turnabout Reclaimed (without mentioning Pearl because you made clear what you thought of her comeback alongside Edgeworth's)? Edit: grammar
@@SinCity2100 The wiki says that the DLC chapters from DD and SoJ are included in the AJ Trilogy without having to pay for them separately, but it doesn't say in which moment they become available. With that said, judging by the contents of this video, I doubt you'll want to buy the collection to experience them for yourself.
He says that like it's bad because Ace Attorney is one of the least "anime" franchises to have ever come out of Japanese media, which is why it's so amazing. If you like anime, then more power to you.
*sigh* that’s your opinion, me and others think it’s one of the best, your entitled to your opinion no matter how shit I think it is, I loved this game
Dual Destinies in a nutshell:
Blackquill: “It’s useless, Wright-Dono. The witness couldn’t be the culprit because at the time of the crime he was checking if he had left the stove on!”
Phoenix: “AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!”
Athena: “I hear his heart crying. I think a little therapy is in order!”
Apollo: “Why am I in the game? This reminds me of my friend…”
The motto of "tell but don't show" was clearly in DD, but started in GK2, and is actually far more common in the latter. For example, we're told that Dogen escaped from prison in Case 5, but we're not shown how he did. We're told that the PIC is a threat, but we're hardly shown anything of it as it's simply a beta version of the Dark Age of the Law. Granted, it's not as hyped but it's still an issue. Courtney threatens to take your badge, but losing results in a terrible game over that makes it lifeless.
Yeah, it's a minor issue in GK2, and it's a big major issue in DD because the trials and the investigations are as the same as the previous games, which proves that there was no difference between the Pre"Dark Age" and the Dark Age itself..
why do we need to see how Dogen escaped? I can agree with the criticism of the PIC, aside from Blaise himself we don't really see them do much, but what does not knowing how Dogen escaped take away from the story?
@@ahumanbeingfromtheearth1502 Because really think "How did he get out?" As it stands, he just shows up out of nowhere just to announce the final boss. It takes away from the story by creating big plot holes and making Dogen's imprisonment feel pointless, especially since we know next to no details about him aside SS-5. How did he break out and why? Why did he go to Edgeworth and how did he find him given he relies on his dog since he’s blind? Why would he betray his master (by blowing his cover) just to save him from De Killer in the end? Why was Dogen content with staying in prison in Case 2, but felt the need to escape in Case 5 just to end the game? These are plot holes that should never have made it into the game, because they destroy Dogen's motivations (thought the Phantom was bad? Dogen has zero motive to betray Keyes who saved his life from the conspirators). He's not driven by motivation to do any of the things he does, he's just a slave to the story. At least Dogen made me laugh over how bad the game was when he showed up to blow his master's cover as the Mastermind. Do you know why Shelly betrayed Engarde in JFA? That's because Engarde ACTUALLY blackmailed De Killer behind his back. Shelly HAS motivation, Dogen doesn't. The plot holes made just from Dogen's offscreen escape make the story less believable as a result.
@@torri776 half of these problems were actually adressed. He escaped prison because Simon stopped the communication with him and he was curious what was going on and he said he will returnto prison. That was probably also why he taked with Edgeworth.
We also don't know how exactly he escaped, but he said, that he had connections which enabled him to enter and leave prison whenever he wanted to.
He also never betrayed Simon. He literally saved his life in the finale.
@@torri776 there are things that are better left unknown, knowing how dogen escaped jail adds absolutely nothing to the game. the dogen escaping jail is definitely not a "tell but don't show" situation, it would be if it was just mentioned but we actually never saw dogen, but we do see him, he plays a major role near the end of the game, you're either confused or actually not know what "show don't tell" is
also there's this thing called suspension of disbelief, not everything has to be 100% realistic, sometimes it's fun to just enjoy the madness of fiction, you're talking about a universe where spirit mediums are real and we have characters with supernatural abilities, and you're getting worked up about a blind killer escaping prison, lol what happened to imagination?
Was looking up "dual destinies bad" on youtube/google, as one does when they are reminded of DD and how much they hate both it and SoJ. That being how I found this video. I think most of the problems with the different games in the series are defined with the different priorities of the writers/devs and what certain fans *want* from the series.
Shu Takumi made the series with the idea of it being a series where you get to solve mysteries. Takumi conceptualized the series "gameplay" first. That is how he came to the conclusion to make it about lawyers (as opposed to detectives) with the courtroom and testimony gameplay being the focus. Pointing out contradiction in testimonies with evidence is where the satisfaction of solving the mystery shined the most (after all). I think writing for the series with that in mind shaped Takumi's growth as a writer/"writing style"
Whereas Eshiro/Yamazaki took the helm later, when the series was already established and the games were seen as an "adventure" games or "visual novels". With the Investigation games, they went for a more standard/typical "adventure" game set-up with Ace Attorney elements (AA was always sort of an Adventure game, so that makes *some* sense). I have my own gripes with the Investigation games, but I think that is best left for another discussion, lest I drag this on even more. The real focus of this comment should be on DD and SoJ, where they had to adjust to the format of the main AA games. I sort of have to imagine they viewed it more through the lens of "this is a Visual Novel, so we need to prioritize the plot/story to justify this games creation". (and by that I mean, they didn't view the testimony gameplay as "gameplay" in the same sense that Takumi did... Which is further emphasized by the forced new mechanics, in an attempt to add "actual 'gameplay'" to the game, unintentionally implying that the testimony sections weren't "gameplay" enough)
I think a lot of this would be better shown with Evidence... Literally, as in, the way Evidence is handled in the different games. A great example of a *GOOD* piece of evidence in the series would be the Teacup in T&T case 3. The teacup is a good piece of evidence because it is both organic to the mystery and inconspicuous in how it is *actually* used in the testimony. If you've played T&T, you probably know what I mean by that. The teacup is obviously related to the murder, and it would obviously be added as evidence to your Court Record for you to use later. But, chances are, you won't realize how *exactly* you are supposed to use it until the testimony where you actually *have* to use it. The teacup doesn't immediately give away how it is used. (Or rather, the writers where smart with how they incorporated it into the mystery)
Contrast that with some of the evidence in DD/SoJ. I think the easiest/most obvious piece of evidence would be the Keychain in SoJ-3, where it is obvious how it will be used and why. Too many pieces of evidence in DD/SoJ have this issue where they are obvious in how they are used, and are only used for that specific instance (not to mention some of the bloated evidence pools which is sort of caused by this). Things like the food/murder weapon from SoJ-4, The newspaper in DD-2, The earrings, moon rocks, Phantom profile and etc. in DD-5. (Note: this problem isn't limited to the Eshiro/Yamazaki side of things, but simply more prevalent.) There is only so much you can do with certain pieces of evidences.
I think Ceave Gaming did a video on the Topman in Mario Galaxy, and he mentioned something about "affordances in design", and I think that applies to writing and storytelling. Think about any given story concept, and consider how many possible directions you can take a given idea. There are people that like to think that you can do *anything* with fiction/stories/writing, but that isn't really the case. Eventually, you'll come to a point where things overlap and some ideas contradict things, making them a bad direction to go towards (I am thinking about how obvious the direction for SoJ's story was, and everything wrong with it). (This idea of affordance extends into the evidence throughout the games/series)
(I want to make a special note that, with the Keychain in SoJ-3, I get the feeling they knew that it was obvious and wanted you to focus on how obvious it is, so that they could possibly surprise you with the twist that SoJ-3 has. Unfortunately, that has its own problems. I would very much recommend checking out "sonocomics" SoJ comics to get what the problem might be.)
The Eshiro/Yamazaki side of things prioritizing the plot/story means they are trying to write things in a more *coherent* fashion, which explains a lot of the barebones courtroom moments and evidence that essentially gives its own use away. They are more focused getting the story to go the direction they need it to and it is easier to write it this way, as the evidence is just used as a means getting to the next plot beat in the easiest (to understand) fashion.
On the opposite side of things, Takumi trying to focus on the gameplay side of things, is probably what leads to more of those BS moments, like with 2-3, 3-5, or TGAA1-4.
This leaves us with a split on what people want out of AA. Do you care more about it from a story or gameplay perspective? If you are more gameplay minded, chances are you prefer Takumi. Whereas, if you are more story/plot minded, it is sort of up in the air which you will prefer. If the BS moments or the lack of overarching story bother you in JFA or AJ bother you, you might be more inclined to prefer Yamazaki, as you'll be more willing to tolerate all the bad things there a bit more.
Of course, I am going to let my preferences shine through here a bit, as well as my absolute contempt for DD/SoJ. Chances are, if you prefer the Yamazaki side of things, then the problem with evidence usage and how evidence conveys itself probably never occurred to you. Perhaps you are so caught up in the act of playing the game/trying to figure out the mystery, that it failed to occur to you that some things are just obvious and the writers aren't addressing things fully. Perhaps you are too busy patting yourself on the back, assuming yourself to be *soOoOOooO* smart for figuring something so obvious out (mindlessly indulging on a sense of self-satisfaction).
(I am very upset that there is such a rift in the series/fandom and it is just going by with people refusing to actually think in depth about the issues we are facing. My frustration makes me want to say a lot of rude things, so know this is actually me restraining myself.)
I am immediately reminded of Fulbright with this. Fulbright being the Phantom is both very predictable *and* unpredictable for all the wrong reasons. The likelihood of the Phantom being some newly introduced character is very low, as its the final case, and making the final villain some random person would be sort of deflating/anticlimactic from a narrative perspective. At that point, all you'd have to do is look in the court record and go through a process of elimination and Fulbright is one of the most likely candidates to be the Phantom. It becomes a complete certainty when you realize the way most of the twists play out in DD. The problem here isn't that I am necessarily smart for figuring this out ahead of time, but rather, the writer clearly didn't consider how/why one might be able to figure it out. Or *WORSE*, the writers knew/understood this, but decided to leave it as is, because the audience would just eat it up and pat themselves on the back for figuring it out as if it were magic or BS that allowed them to predict it, rather than it being basic pattern recognition and a simple understanding of story structure. If you figure it out ahead of time, and put that together with the lackluster evidence/mystery, you are left with an insulting bad/easy/braindead ending. But again, if you are caught up in a feeble sense of self satisfaction and are so caught up in the act of actually playing the game, you might not even consider the issue (or even if there is an issue to begin with).
I want to do a second push/recommendation on "sonocomics" SoJ comics... seriously, they are both solid and slightly reflect this issue. (Also, check out their Xenoblade 1 comic, if you played Xeno1, as I honestly think I prefer how they handled some of the story and characters. Certainly had a better pay off on things)
I kinda want to give an extra example/go into more detail, but this is dragging on to long. Besides, who knows if this'll even be read?
Bro wrote a whole college paper
Do you get some pleasure out of this game? Like the fact that you go "I wanna see people bashing this game because I remember how bad it was" is not normal.
Like your first sentence sounds like a shitpost.
Thank you for this lengthy and detailed comment. I personally agree with what you've said and glad to find the same thought process going on in my head with others as well regarding this series. Ace attorney is a very good series but it lacked for me starting with DD and it bums me because I love this series so much, I felt like it dragged on at bits and some bits just sounded unrealistic and straight up silly and I unintentionally started comparing it to other ace games 1-4. Just finished DD yesterday and I don't think I'll tackle TGAA nor SoJ :(
This was a great read. Here are my own perspectives after having finished every game in the series.
I consider Shu Takumi and Shouzou Kaga the greatest Japanese writers of all time. This should be telling enough of which writer I deem to be superior (regarding Ace Attorney). Not only is Shu Takumi a brilliant writer in his own right, but as the creator of the series, he is naturally going to understand it better than everyone else, as Takeshi Yamazaki is at best a fan of the series who wrote 4 fanfiction entries that left him burnt out by SoJ due to how much of a general hack he is. This is why I don't understand how GK2 fans deem GK2 to be the peak of the series unless they see Takumi's Ace Attorney, as established by the standards set by the Trilogy, to be FUNDAMENTALLY flawed considering GS3 has a less focused plot than GK2 did, which is all that matters to them.
Of Yamazaki's works, I consider the overhated GK1 to be not only his best work, but one of the best games in the series, for the simple fact it stuck to the gameplay first mentality, employed with GK1's new engine. What resulted was GK1 having insanely gripping mysteries with great uses for evidence, all while having a bare bones plot. After GK1 however, Yamazaki's games lacked heavily in the case, logic, and evidence department because he went in the exact opposite direction, which was mind you, very positively received. GK2 and SoJ especially tank in that regard, as I remember Lotta's Testimony and the Hot Air Balloon being so unbelievably obvious as answers to prompts in The Bland Turnabout, not to mention presenting the same Wedding Photograph in SoJ's DLC case time and time again.
Outside of a few exceptions (Turnabout Target from GK2 for example is the only case in the game to get the case right, which is why I like it despite it being badly written), Yamazaki's plot-centric cases are usually boring, and half the appeal is just gone for me. That wouldn't be too much of a problem if the plots themselves are good, right? Sadly, with the exception of Dual Destinies (and GK1 for the fact it barely has a plot to speak of), the plots are almost entirely contrived and badly written, and even Dual Destinies' plot is largely a rehash of GS1, coupled with the nonexistent Dark Age of the Law, and poor continuity, all made up ONLY by the insanely enjoyable cast, but that's just me.
@@torri776 It is really telling that with the exception of AJ, all the titles Takumi was majorly involved in(Trilogy, the Layton game, GAA) are all generally agreed to be highpoint in the series while the other bunch of games are very divicive.(And sometimes feel mutually exclusive. I have rarely heard the same people say they like AAI and Turnabout Procecutor 2 both. Most people either hate one or the other for some reason, which seems like a styleconsistency problem if I had to guess)
13:49 although i recall a dialogue in the very first game where someone says "the law is in a dark age so thats why trials only last 3 days" or smth, i might be wrong but i agree with everything else
I love Dual Destinies *as a standalone game*, but as an AJ sequel? Fuck this game.
The fact they just act like AJ didn't happen and just sidelined almost all the AJ cast, hell Ema didn't even appear here! I really hate it because AJ is actually my favorite mainline AA game, and to see it not having a continuation just pissed me off
But if I judge it as a standalone game. It's really great in my opinion (I really hate 5-2 though). I think it's much better than AAI and the first two AA games. Hell, I can even say that there's no BAD Ace Attorney game. All of them are really great in my opinion, with AAI being the weakest out of all of them.
Dual Destinies is a good game as a standalone game, but if you put it with the Ace Attorney Continuity, holy crap it ruins almost everything...
@@SinCity2100 Hmmm fro case 5 ;
Naruto ; putting a mask won't change everythin
On the writing of this game, if you remember that Capcom made Mega Man X6 without Keiji Inafune's approval, apparently, a similar thing occurred with this game, that being Shu Takumi, the franchise's writer, was busy with the Professor Layton crossover. However, unlike Inafking's plans of X5 being the end and switching over to MMZ being uprooted by the company, it was said that Takumi initially considered ending the franchise on Apollo Justice, but changed his mind due to positive reviews.
Edit: Another note was that the Ace Attorney games under their creator were the trilogy, Apollo Justice, and the Professor Layton crossover, which may provide further explanation.
AJ was not destined to be the last game tho it was going to be a duology
@@nappeywappey Apollo Justice was a standalone game. Shu Takumi never wanted to make it let alone make a sequel.
''it was said that Takumi initially considered ending the franchise on Apollo Justice''
Shu Takumi never wanted to make Ace Attorney 4, Capcom forced him to make it and Tumblr/preddit are not reliable.
''If you allow me to explain to those who don’t know the series: Naruhodō Ryūichi is a young defense attorney who was the protagonist of Gyakuten Saiban 1 ~ 3. While the episodes were all separate stories, the three games formed one big story together.
…That story ended with 3.
I don’t want to add an episode to that story…''
I like DD more than AJ but i agree, somehow they made Phoenix a weird character in his return as a defense attorney, ngl, i love Athena Cykes and Simon Blackquill, they're just as amazing as Godot from Trials and Tribulations in my opinion and Apollo's story was a trainwreck of story to conclude, moving to SOJ, it's amazing as DD but it has the most lamest main prosecutor to ever exist.
And it's safe to say, the writers of DD didn't bother playing the original trilogy.
I am so glad to see someone call this shitfest out for what it is. I hate this game and everything it did to the Ace Attorney franchise. I did a long rant about it on Miiverse back when it was still around.
I could at least regard Spirit of Justice as flawed but enjoyable, but Dual Destinies is bad for so many reasons. (Though in hindsight the graphics and music were great.)
The hand holding, the downgraded gameplay, Everything about Turnabout Academy. (A high school for lawyers? WTF!)
Two major problems with the final case I feel you overlooked.
1. Athena's murder case is basically Edgeworth and Ema Skye's cases mashed together. They weren't even subtle about it calling it the UR-1 incident. The DL-6 and SL-9 incidents were named the way they were to hide what the cases were about both from the player and the characters. Making it a surprise when you learned how everyone was connected to them.
Here there's no reason to call it UR-1, the name is given after we learn about the case. It's just there for "WOO! NOSTALGIA!"
2. The Phantom is revealed to be a Master of Disguise, able to impersonate anyone on a whim and yet he never thought to use this ability when I don't know, committing murder! Why risk your life to avoid a security camera when you can just disguise yourself as someone else and call it a day?
Why wear a jacket and cover your face to fool a robot into thinking the victim's still alive when you can just disguise yourself as the victim?
When Capcom finally localised the Great Ace Attorney, it honestly felt like a breath of fresh air, as I was reminded why I got into the series to begin with.
Anyway, I should probably stop now before this turns into another lengthy rant. Great job with the video.
It kinda sucks that so many people hate fuel destinies and spirit of Justice cause they are literally my favorite ace attorney games and either
1. People forget they exist
2. Nobody talks about them
Or 3. People hate it
I personally liked Dual Destinies, but I agree that it is one of the worst Ace Atorney, which is a shame because I think the story of Athena and Simon is incredible and case 5 despite having problems is one of the best (In my opinion)
So I think is a good game but a bad Ace Attorney.
Great video by the way!
Thanks a lot my friend..
I think Spirit of Justice was a bit better, but this and SoJ really needed to stop devoting half of their runtime to Phoenix just being there to be like "Hey, remember the original Trilogy? What a series of games those were, am I right?"
Oh yeah, "Just like the Good Ole' days Hey, Maya"..
@@SinCity2100 Like, for me personally, the most interesting parts of Dual Destinies and Spirit of Justice were the parts where Apollo and Athena had to deal with cases on their own. They were a bit of duo, building a fun rapport with one another separate from Phoenix. It was great. But then Phoenix kept showing up to be involved, even though he had nothing to do with the plot of either game. He's an attorney again because the fans want him to be, but he has nothing to do with what's going on. And he's the most frequently played as character, even in Spirit of Justice, which is considered "Apollo's game". I feel like Phoenix should just be tied to DLC cases now. Give him a long case; something high profile that lasts three days and gets to show how he can handle more serious things now, but let the new blood have time to shine.
12:02 - 12:05 Yes, YES!!!
Exactly my thoughts!
Now, (I admit,) I like DD, BUT... I feel EXACTLY the same!
7:02 where is this video from?
I stopped watching at 3:59. Another amerimutt rambling about how AA4 is as good as the trilogy.
I like DD and SOJ though 😭
I guess I'll defend the "Dark Age of the Law" a little...
The problem with the statement "Manfred, Blaise or Edgeworth were already forging evidence" were just that: rumors. It was implied that they did indeed use dirty tactics to win but there wasn't a single time but we never get to actually see so. Edgeworth, for example, has never forged the evidence on-screen. Manfred was once exposed to force a confession, but that was pointed out by Gregory, and that resulted Manfred getting penalized. For Blaise, well he also got brought to justice by Edgeworth (and Edgeworth became a good guy after Wright saved him in 1-4).
The thing is that people finally found hope with Wright becoming a lawyer who managed to point out von Karma's crimes as well as Gant's. Of course people would lose hope if they find out that Phoenix presented fabricated evidence after what he did. For Blackquill's situation... unlike Manfred or Blaise, he was a rookie prosecutor and him getting convicted would mean that the law system, while it looked it was going to change, would always stay the same. At this point people lost all their hope in the legal system as it never changes and stays the same. In addition to that, more competent lawyers saw that forging evidence would make their beloved verdict to happen. It was exactly this fact that more and more lawyers and prosecutors started fabricating evidence or issuing false charges to win after they saw Phoenix doing so. The legendary Phoenix Wright was caught as a forger and that likely caused a lot of them to believe that he always used forged evidence in his previous trials.
The Dark Age of the Law, however doesn't go without it's flaws- the first one being that it's... well sort of a retcon (supposedly was there since Blackquill got convicted 7 years ago), it wad never mentioned in Apollo Justice even though AJ supposedly took place in it. As well as it's conclusion that it ended by capturing a spy and clearing Blackquill's name. Other than that I like it as a concept but the execution of it is pretty flawed.
The Dark Age of the Law itself wasn't a bad idea, but I don't like how they used it in DD, it made it look like a big deal and all they did is using this "tell not show" mentality to tackle this topic..
@@SinCity2100 Yeah... I totally get what you're saying. Maybe that's one of the reasons why I enjoyed the DLC case, Turnabout Reclaimed, so much. The Dark Age of the Law isn't mentioned in it and despite being a filler case it had a creative plot and very sad moments. Of course it still has my biggest problem with the game (the fact that it's way too easy and the characters keep telling me what to do and what evidence to present) but the writing was good enough.
The only good games in the 3DS era are the crossover game with Professor Layton and most of Great Ace Attorney 2 (the last section of case 5 sunk things for me)
Your opinions are spot on! Continue working on your comedic timing and editing, you're onto something here.
Thanks a lot..
@@SinCity2100
Indeed, I anticipate your videos on games like the Megaman X series and SDR2.
@@austinreed7343 Thanks a lot
I would say Dual Destinies is a pretty great Ace Attorney game. It's definately better than Apollo justice, Justice for all and maybe a bit better than Phoenix Wright ace attorney. (I haven't played the Investigations,Spirit of justice and The Great Ace Attorney duology yet).
Well if you think so, I'm glad you're enjoying the game..
@@SinCity2100 the presentation got a big upgrade with smooth 3D animations and crime scenes. The soundtrack is great, we finally got orchestral versions of the already existing themes. The pacing of the story is a lot better than ever before, there are no dull moments (this is one of the strength of its' othervise extreme linearity). The humor and character chemistry is probably at its' best in Dual Destinies. The Phantom is good villain.......when he's not in court.
this video was really cathartic thank you
i don’t want to sound like a “all the new stuff is bad i miss the old games” but i really don’t like the 3ds games, it feels like they’re trying to have insanely high stakes but they don’t build them up properly and ace attorney has always been more focused on personal conflicts. aa1’s major conflict is about bringing von karma to justice and phoenix’s goal to save miles, 1-5 is about lana and ema and serves as a bridge between both aa1 and aa2, abd the trilogy and aa4, because of how it expands on the corruption in the legal system, aa2 is about stopping matt from getting away with hurting adrian and celeste and about phoenix miles and franziska all struggling to come to terms with the truth being more important than winning, aa3 is about the fey family and godot’s own internal conflict, aa4 is about the gavins and the mishams and the wrights and apollo is caught in the middle of it and strives to do the right thing. even in the investigations games where there are higher stakes because you’re working with interpol, the yatagarasu started as a group of people trying to do what the law couldn’t, and the mastermind behind aai2 is an abandoned child getting revenge on the people who hurt him. and then aa5 is like ahhh international spy!! he had to sabotage the rocket launch and killed athena’s mother!! why? oh you know. (never elaborates)
i feel like a lot of the (valid) criticisms of apollo justice come from it being set up as the start of a new era, and then not getting an actual sequel. aa1 was the start of a trilogy, but it was written as a standalone game without any planned sequels. and even then i don’t think many of them are like. that harmful to the game.
sorry this turned into such a long ramble. i love the ace attorney series and that’s kind of why i’m so harsh on the stuff i think is lacking. i do love athena and simon, i think if they actually had their own game with an actual antagonist they could really shine.
@@sunisverycool1You say you hate the 3DS games but which ones specifically?
@@mutiiYT didn’t say i hate them but as someone who really really liked aa4, aa5 was pretty disappointing even if i do like athena and simon, and i am not fond of aa6 (minus 6-4 that one’s good). i haven’t played dgs1/2 or layton v wright yet
@@sunisverycool1 Oh i see i was just curious thats all. Either way you should play those games you said you havent played when you have time because they are AMAZING
@@mutiiYT i really really want to!! hopefully sometime this year, hehe
Hugh's scream is horrible, both in the English dub and in the Japanese one.
Aside from that, what is your opinion on Turnabout Reclaimed (without mentioning Pearl because you made clear what you thought of her comeback alongside Edgeworth's)?
Edit: grammar
Haven't played it /seen it yet, but it looks like it's a lot better than the other cases in DD
@@SinCity2100 The wiki says that the DLC chapters from DD and SoJ are included in the AJ Trilogy without having to pay for them separately, but it doesn't say in which moment they become available.
With that said, judging by the contents of this video, I doubt you'll want to buy the collection to experience them for yourself.
i like your video
15:49 "What is this, an anime?" You say that like it's a bad thing.
He says that like it's bad because Ace Attorney is one of the least "anime" franchises to have ever come out of Japanese media, which is why it's so amazing. If you like anime, then more power to you.
I don't accept Turnabout Academy slander
Too bad! Because it is without question the worst Ace Attorney case of all time.
@@mrfoxly6833 in a world without: Turnabout Ablaze, Recipe of Turnabout, the Kidnapped Turnabout and the Monstrous Turnabout
@@davilboy5355 No, Turnabout Academy is easily worse than all of those.
@@davilboy5355 Recipe of Turnabout is far better than Turnabout Persona.
*sigh* that’s your opinion, me and others think it’s one of the best, your entitled to your opinion no matter how shit I think it is, I loved this game