More than anything else here, I think that bit at the end of the video is actually most important. Most people who aren't familiar with fighting games just tend to assume that the best feeling in a fighting game is winning but that's not really the case at all. Sure winning is great but the real, actual joy is having that 10+ game set with an opponent and maybe even losing more than you win but in coming away having learned a lot in tight, competitive matches. Those people who look so happy when they win Evo wouldn't feel that way if they won all the time and were just able to face roll through all of the competition they faced. It's not just the winning that matters
When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning. Going for the goal requires you to learn things along the way, winning is just the result of learning.
I've been consuming a lot of educational content on the neutral game lately and I still got a lot from this video. Stressing the overall strategy is really helpful because the mental stack is high learning these techniques and how to counter them and I sometimes forget the whole point of doing it beyond "force opponent to whiff and do combo" lol . Love that you talked about that feeling you get with an equally matched opponent and you get to play out a kung fu movie! Walking away from a match respecting your opponent regardless of win'lose is a great feeling too
This series is great and has been very helpful to me! Thank you so much! Learning to adapt is something I learned recently so I'd like to share my experience for newer players who might find it helpful. I started in Iron with classic Chun Li. Was stuck for a while but shot up all the way to Silver 1 by doing roughly the following: 1) simple anti-air: I couldn't DP on reaction, so I stuck to air throws only. 2) 1 combo for punishing big unsafe moves 3) drive rush being fireball 4) hit confirming jabs: Hit? do special move. Blocked? try throw. 5) A simple corner combo to capitalize on wall splat. (Or try to do the Super). Then I got stuck at Silver 1. I realized that the opportunities that I was relying on to get in damage just weren't coming as often because people weren't missing unsafe moves as often. So, I looked at what I was leaving on the table, hit the training room and added the following to the arsenal: 1) a meaty combo to capitalize on a knockdown 2) DP on reaction 3) Learned a more damaging combo for corner and Drive Impact punish counters. Then I hit ranked and realized that not everything of this can be used against everyone all the time. Some people just didn't jump as often as others. Some often woke up with ex-DP so attempts to meaty failed. So, I started to mentally pick the tools that seemed most useful against the current opponent based on their playstyle. eg. If someone jumped a lot, I made anti-airing my priority and didn't think too much about approaching them. If the opponent woke up with ex-DP often, I focused on getting knockdown and then block and be ready to punish if they did ex-DP. If they stopped doing ex-DP, then go back to trying meaty. I'm now at Silver 3 and I finally feel like I am experiencing the game behind the game.. I feel like my mind is 1-2 moves ahead of what's happening on the screen. It's very rewarding even though I'm not utilizing my character anywhere near to her full potential. (I can't even do her BnB yet lol).
Yeah, you're doing it right. Focusing on the opponent as opposed to maximizing everything you're doing. That'll come with time. But starting off realizing you need to adjust based on your opponents is SUPER important. Great job, and keep it up!!
That feeling of adjusting on the fly interaction after interaction… The feeling of “Last time my opponent woke up with a dp…So I’m gonna bait it” and then you land the perfect counter hit? Amazing
Totally enjoying your content! You are great at explaining the concepts of fighting games and I look forward to your videos! Thanks for sharing James! 🤘👊
My low level strat is to do something completely insane at round start of the first game which either makes the opponent think Im an idiot or tells me that they wont challenge bullshit.
I don't play fighting games, not exactly at least. I just picked up Naraka Bladepoint. As a longtime FPS player, I have to say that the concepts discussed in this video are applicable to any PvP environment. The idea of going in with a plan and adapting to the opponent and the concept of neutral game are pretty esoteric concepts for players from other genres, I think. I've never heard PvP engagements described through the lens of the neutral concept (not until a youtuber mentioned "neutral" in a guide) and this helps a lot. I have experienced exactly what you described regarding a "worthy opponent" in some PvP environments, but this video helps put those duels in context as to what was happening beyond my own assessment.
I'd say the point of neutral is to gather info on habits and to do more damage than the opponent while in neutral. The most obvious way to determine if someone's neutral is good is if they consistently do more damage than their opponents in neutral
I always consider Neutral to be any activity being performed before frame advantage/disadvantaged has been established thru contact on block or hit. It's a very open definition that includes not just footsies, but basically all movement as well. I like this definition mainly because A, considering advantage or lack of it makes sense with the term of being neutral, and B, it helps account for other fighting games outside of street fighter where neutral looks much different. I think the main thing i want to see less of is the term "neutral skip." Both pros and casuals seems to use this term for basically anything in street fighter that moves someone quickly across the screen, regardless of whether advantage results from it. By that logic, games like Marvel and many other fast paced fighters would have little to no neutral. Just feels like a term borne from street fighter bias that pure SF is some footsies and whiff punish song and dance more akin to fencing.
When you say "gameplan", how much of that is thinking about how you and your character want to deal with the problem at hand (e.g. i need to make sure i anti-air this character to keep them from getting started or knowing which ranges you want to play at against which character and which tools are most valuable) and how much of that is having decided what you're going to do before situations occur (e.g. i want to use dragonlash to get in and if i'm in a scary situation i'll ex srk)? Also, to answer your question: I've watched every one of your videos so far, and i've been sharing them with all my friends who i think will benefit from them. I'm very glad you're making this series. I've felt that the beginner level players have been the least served group by most guides- even though they're the group that will benefit from instruction and direction the most. I appreciate your approach in these guides. I think you're doing a great job explaining what players should do, why they should do it, and using a language that people who aren't familiar with fighting games will understand.
When I say basic gameplan, it’s in reference to knowing what is optimal for your character, what is optimal for their character, and the matchup knowledge you’ve built up over time. For example, if you’re Dhalsim, your gameplan will be zoning. And you know what your opposing character’s best options to get through your zoning are, so you play according to the match up, trying to cut off those avenues most. However, you may find out your opponent doesn’t like to use those avenues that most players use with said character. So at that point, you start adjusting. Maybe this guy just jumps a lot so now your game shifts to being very anti-air focused. So now you’re adjusting to the opponent. But starting off, you were playing a basic gameplan that generally works based on no opponent knowledge. Another example: with Ken, I’ll play a standard footsies game. Try to get close, see if the opponent knows how to deal with Jinrai. Jinrai Kicks is a great “basic gameplan” starting point. And if it turns out they have no idea how to deal with it, I just abuse it until they die. If they do know how to deal with it, I’ll pepper in Dragonlashes and see how they deal with that, etc. But if the opposing character happens to be Guile, maybe Jinrai Kicks isn’t the default because getting in on Guile is harder. Instead, I’ll focus more on fireballs and finding ways to get around his Sonic Booms as the basic gameplan. Hope this helps a bit!
Oh man. Yes. The ground game. Not sure why it changed to Neutral or Footsies. I completely forgot about the ground game term. Thanks for the throwback and the reminder!
I like this video, it covers a lot on neutral without too many extra terms. There could be more expansion by covering the three pillars of neutral, proactive , passive waiting and pre emptive play? Could be cool to hear your take on it.
While maybe not the entire point of what you're going for, those first two examples sums up maybe 95% of my matches in sf6 lol. There is rarely an in-between, or people who actually properly adapt to my adaptations, which makes the game a little boring to me. On my climb to master I had about a dozen people open with drive rush DI, and then just lose the round because I blocked lol and they just never recovered on their drive economy. Or like the kens who can't stop dragonlashing, or kims who can't stop sliding etc. On the other hand there is such an absurd number of people who walk themselves into the corner, and have what feels like 0 idea what to do if I take the life lead and just stop moving forward. I've even gotten lots of ragequits from that, yet they were completely fine with me walking them down for a few games and paying for it in similar ways over and over again. Perhaps you could do a video on that in particular too, more like the specifics on both how to slow down a little, but also how to pick up the pace, or even teaching people how to stand their ground even slightly, as I feel tons of people could benefit from that.
So okay, we're just NOT going to talk about what Zangief just did? xD i WOULD say Snake Eyes but then i'd wonder why the hell Scarlett wasn't in the Tourney. xD
If I follow your logic, (neutral= neither player has a distinct advantage) when we are facing JP, there is no such thing as 'Neutral' because he always has an advantage. 😂 . Capcom sf6 doesn't give a FF about neutral gameplay. As a matter of fact, sf6 is the solution as far as they are concern, to destroy the idea of neutral gamplay.
There’s a lot of Neutral in SF6. But you just have to accept every game has a different Neutral. UMvC3 has amazing Neutral though you wouldn’t be able to tell as a casual viewer. JP doesn’t always have the advantage. If you block a Ghost, he has Advantage. But you have to be aware that EVERY TIME you block a ground spike, YOU are at an advantage. It’s a small one (+2) but now JP is the one who has to guess what you’re gonna do. Ground spike doesn’t cover the whole screen. If you dash into a second Ground Spike or get hit by a second Ground Spike by standing in place, it’s because you are being predictable. But if you can get JP to whiff a Ground Spike, you now have upwards of 60 frames to do whatever the hell you want while he’s stuck. You HAVE to look at it from JP’s perspective. He’s constantly trying to predict you. As I’ve said on Twitter, JP’s zoning is NOT what makes him top tier. It’s his offense, frighteningly enough, that makes him so strong.
@@UltraChenTV i used to think umvc3 was a bad game until i saw a video on Sajam's chanel explaining a bit of the decisions players were making and how neutral works in the game. It changed my perspective on the game and little by little marvel3 became my fav game to watch! I still suck at neutral but it's truly amazing to see how people at high level interact with each other in different games, how you open someone up with only movement and spacing in games where everything is completely different
Holy crap the having multiple game plans thing for different playstyles was eye opening for me
More than anything else here, I think that bit at the end of the video is actually most important. Most people who aren't familiar with fighting games just tend to assume that the best feeling in a fighting game is winning but that's not really the case at all. Sure winning is great but the real, actual joy is having that 10+ game set with an opponent and maybe even losing more than you win but in coming away having learned a lot in tight, competitive matches. Those people who look so happy when they win Evo wouldn't feel that way if they won all the time and were just able to face roll through all of the competition they faced. It's not just the winning that matters
When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning.
Going for the goal requires you to learn things along the way, winning is just the result of learning.
I've been consuming a lot of educational content on the neutral game lately and I still got a lot from this video. Stressing the overall strategy is really helpful because the mental stack is high learning these techniques and how to counter them and I sometimes forget the whole point of doing it beyond "force opponent to whiff and do combo" lol . Love that you talked about that feeling you get with an equally matched opponent and you get to play out a kung fu movie! Walking away from a match respecting your opponent regardless of win'lose is a great feeling too
I relate so much to that last part (7:40). Its the whole reason i play fighting games and why i love them so much 🥲
This series is great and has been very helpful to me! Thank you so much!
Learning to adapt is something I learned recently so I'd like to share my experience for newer players who might find it helpful. I started in Iron with classic Chun Li. Was stuck for a while but shot up all the way to Silver 1 by doing roughly the following:
1) simple anti-air: I couldn't DP on reaction, so I stuck to air throws only.
2) 1 combo for punishing big unsafe moves
3) drive rush being fireball
4) hit confirming jabs: Hit? do special move. Blocked? try throw.
5) A simple corner combo to capitalize on wall splat. (Or try to do the Super).
Then I got stuck at Silver 1. I realized that the opportunities that I was relying on to get in damage just weren't coming as often because people weren't missing unsafe moves as often. So, I looked at what I was leaving on the table, hit the training room and added the following to the arsenal:
1) a meaty combo to capitalize on a knockdown
2) DP on reaction
3) Learned a more damaging combo for corner and Drive Impact punish counters.
Then I hit ranked and realized that not everything of this can be used against everyone all the time. Some people just didn't jump as often as others. Some often woke up with ex-DP so attempts to meaty failed. So, I started to mentally pick the tools that seemed most useful against the current opponent based on their playstyle. eg. If someone jumped a lot, I made anti-airing my priority and didn't think too much about approaching them. If the opponent woke up with ex-DP often, I focused on getting knockdown and then block and be ready to punish if they did ex-DP. If they stopped doing ex-DP, then go back to trying meaty. I'm now at Silver 3 and I finally feel like I am experiencing the game behind the game.. I feel like my mind is 1-2 moves ahead of what's happening on the screen. It's very rewarding even though I'm not utilizing my character anywhere near to her full potential. (I can't even do her BnB yet lol).
Yeah, you're doing it right. Focusing on the opponent as opposed to maximizing everything you're doing. That'll come with time. But starting off realizing you need to adjust based on your opponents is SUPER important. Great job, and keep it up!!
That feeling of adjusting on the fly interaction after interaction… The feeling of “Last time my opponent woke up with a dp…So I’m gonna bait it” and then you land the perfect counter hit? Amazing
Totally enjoying your content! You are great at explaining the concepts of fighting games and I look forward to your videos! Thanks for sharing James! 🤘👊
One of my favorite Sirlinisms is, “Don’t be afraid to sacrifice life for information” (possibly a variation).
Damn, thanks for this great lecture
You're doin g great work James thanks
thanks james
thank you
My low level strat is to do something completely insane at round start of the first game which either makes the opponent think Im an idiot or tells me that they wont challenge bullshit.
I don't play fighting games, not exactly at least. I just picked up Naraka Bladepoint. As a longtime FPS player, I have to say that the concepts discussed in this video are applicable to any PvP environment. The idea of going in with a plan and adapting to the opponent and the concept of neutral game are pretty esoteric concepts for players from other genres, I think. I've never heard PvP engagements described through the lens of the neutral concept (not until a youtuber mentioned "neutral" in a guide) and this helps a lot.
I have experienced exactly what you described regarding a "worthy opponent" in some PvP environments, but this video helps put those duels in context as to what was happening beyond my own assessment.
nothing feel better than perfecting a manon with 5 medal at third round. you cannot even touch me
always a joy to learn from james chen 😉
Thank you for your videos , plz we need a detailed video about Modern controls Zangief , ( modern Zangief ) discussing if is he playable.
This is on another level of realization for fighting games😺nice
Thank you James. These are really useful.
I'd say the point of neutral is to gather info on habits and to do more damage than the opponent while in neutral. The most obvious way to determine if someone's neutral is good is if they consistently do more damage than their opponents in neutral
Amazing amazing content thank you so much this is so helpful for beginners like me. I am slowly understanding things now
Great explanation James!
Awesome video as always, James!
I always consider Neutral to be any activity being performed before frame advantage/disadvantaged has been established thru contact on block or hit. It's a very open definition that includes not just footsies, but basically all movement as well. I like this definition mainly because A, considering advantage or lack of it makes sense with the term of being neutral, and B, it helps account for other fighting games outside of street fighter where neutral looks much different.
I think the main thing i want to see less of is the term "neutral skip." Both pros and casuals seems to use this term for basically anything in street fighter that moves someone quickly across the screen, regardless of whether advantage results from it. By that logic, games like Marvel and many other fast paced fighters would have little to no neutral. Just feels like a term borne from street fighter bias that pure SF is some footsies and whiff punish song and dance more akin to fencing.
this video needs to be the go to when explaining "neutral" to new fg players or all fg players for that matter
When you say "gameplan", how much of that is thinking about how you and your character want to deal with the problem at hand (e.g. i need to make sure i anti-air this character to keep them from getting started or knowing which ranges you want to play at against which character and which tools are most valuable) and how much of that is having decided what you're going to do before situations occur (e.g. i want to use dragonlash to get in and if i'm in a scary situation i'll ex srk)?
Also, to answer your question: I've watched every one of your videos so far, and i've been sharing them with all my friends who i think will benefit from them. I'm very glad you're making this series. I've felt that the beginner level players have been the least served group by most guides- even though they're the group that will benefit from instruction and direction the most. I appreciate your approach in these guides. I think you're doing a great job explaining what players should do, why they should do it, and using a language that people who aren't familiar with fighting games will understand.
When I say basic gameplan, it’s in reference to knowing what is optimal for your character, what is optimal for their character, and the matchup knowledge you’ve built up over time.
For example, if you’re Dhalsim, your gameplan will be zoning. And you know what your opposing character’s best options to get through your zoning are, so you play according to the match up, trying to cut off those avenues most.
However, you may find out your opponent doesn’t like to use those avenues that most players use with said character. So at that point, you start adjusting. Maybe this guy just jumps a lot so now your game shifts to being very anti-air focused. So now you’re adjusting to the opponent. But starting off, you were playing a basic gameplan that generally works based on no opponent knowledge.
Another example: with Ken, I’ll play a standard footsies game. Try to get close, see if the opponent knows how to deal with Jinrai. Jinrai Kicks is a great “basic gameplan” starting point. And if it turns out they have no idea how to deal with it, I just abuse it until they die. If they do know how to deal with it, I’ll pepper in Dragonlashes and see how they deal with that, etc. But if the opposing character happens to be Guile, maybe Jinrai Kicks isn’t the default because getting in on Guile is harder. Instead, I’ll focus more on fireballs and finding ways to get around his Sonic Booms as the basic gameplan.
Hope this helps a bit!
@@UltraChenTV This makes perfect sense. Thank you very much for the thorough response!
Great video, learned a lot from this.
More of a historical question, do you know when it became neutral/footsies? I swear we used to call it "ground game" way, way back when.
Oh man. Yes. The ground game. Not sure why it changed to Neutral or Footsies. I completely forgot about the ground game term. Thanks for the throwback and the reminder!
I like this video, it covers a lot on neutral without too many extra terms.
There could be more expansion by covering the three pillars of neutral, proactive , passive waiting and pre emptive play?
Could be cool to hear your take on it.
That’s a good topic to cover in the future. I’ve got a roadmap in place but I’ll consider that for future episodes for sure!
While maybe not the entire point of what you're going for, those first two examples sums up maybe 95% of my matches in sf6 lol. There is rarely an in-between, or people who actually properly adapt to my adaptations, which makes the game a little boring to me.
On my climb to master I had about a dozen people open with drive rush DI, and then just lose the round because I blocked lol and they just never recovered on their drive economy. Or like the kens who can't stop dragonlashing, or kims who can't stop sliding etc. On the other hand there is such an absurd number of people who walk themselves into the corner, and have what feels like 0 idea what to do if I take the life lead and just stop moving forward. I've even gotten lots of ragequits from that, yet they were completely fine with me walking them down for a few games and paying for it in similar ways over and over again. Perhaps you could do a video on that in particular too, more like the specifics on both how to slow down a little, but also how to pick up the pace, or even teaching people how to stand their ground even slightly, as I feel tons of people could benefit from that.
For the Algorithms!
So okay, we're just NOT going to talk about what Zangief just did? xD i WOULD say Snake Eyes but then i'd wonder why the hell Scarlett wasn't in the Tourney. xD
Oh we'll talk about it on Tuesday!! O_o
If I follow your logic, (neutral= neither player has a distinct advantage) when we are facing JP, there is no such thing as 'Neutral' because he always has an advantage. 😂 . Capcom sf6 doesn't give a FF about neutral gameplay. As a matter of fact, sf6 is the solution as far as they are concern, to destroy the idea of neutral gamplay.
Neutral was destroyed long before SF 6. Laura often skipped neutral in SF 5.
@@durant3248dhalsim skipped neutral in sf2 bro lmao
@@junior1388666mid range is kind of his neutral, only way for him to be at a kind of equal stage is between close and mid range, maybe.
There’s a lot of Neutral in SF6. But you just have to accept every game has a different Neutral. UMvC3 has amazing Neutral though you wouldn’t be able to tell as a casual viewer.
JP doesn’t always have the advantage. If you block a Ghost, he has Advantage. But you have to be aware that EVERY TIME you block a ground spike, YOU are at an advantage. It’s a small one (+2) but now JP is the one who has to guess what you’re gonna do. Ground spike doesn’t cover the whole screen. If you dash into a second Ground Spike or get hit by a second Ground Spike by standing in place, it’s because you are being predictable. But if you can get JP to whiff a Ground Spike, you now have upwards of 60 frames to do whatever the hell you want while he’s stuck. You HAVE to look at it from JP’s perspective. He’s constantly trying to predict you. As I’ve said on Twitter, JP’s zoning is NOT what makes him top tier. It’s his offense, frighteningly enough, that makes him so strong.
@@UltraChenTV i used to think umvc3 was a bad game until i saw a video on Sajam's chanel explaining a bit of the decisions players were making and how neutral works in the game. It changed my perspective on the game and little by little marvel3 became my fav game to watch! I still suck at neutral but it's truly amazing to see how people at high level interact with each other in different games, how you open someone up with only movement and spacing in games where everything is completely different
This series is over?
No. I plan on continuing it soon! Just gotta sit down and start cranking these out. ^_^
Neutral to me are just footsies when your not in each others face. Its not that complicated
I mean, half the fgc cant even define neutral properly lmao.
That’s exactly what I said. Hahaha.