I’m INFJ and I’m a massive manipulator. It’s more often than not manipulating others into making others get what they need. It’s contradictory because it is selfish, I’m doing it because I want the satisfaction of making someone better whilst simultaneously it’s coming from an altruistic mindset because I have no intention of wanting a return. I call this “positive manipulation” as it produces a win-win outcome.
This is a rock solid comment from what must be a mature mindset. I'd argue that younger INFJs do this to some extent but almost have no idea they're doing it. A mature INFJ understands how the whole business works and knows how to work the system, and as you said, does it with purpose. Great comment, thank you. Also, the first sentence was so amusing and made me laugh. For some reason, I imagine sitting around in a circle and someone opening up with, "Hi, I'm INFJ and I'm a massive manipulator".
@@YourNeverSleepingBeauty I’m reading your response to the comment and it’s fascinating how welcoming you are as if you were waiting someone to understand you. I’m an Infj and I’m having this shift toward what I thought it’s real and what reality actually is. Business world taught me about marketing but it was super easy to me! So natural to me. Let’s be real we Infjs manipulate without even knowing and also having good intentions but we are good at it anyway mainly because we understand what people want
@@samtavoosian3059 I do enjoy the comment sections on my videos. The experiences people share, the wisdom they impart, the questions they have ... it's all very interesting to me. What's real and what's reality ... yes. We live in our idealistic heads a lot, but can be most effective when we can sort of merge the two. Idealism with an edge is how I like to think of it.
Isn’t that what we do if we see someone suffering on their self defeating thoughts snd ask them a question so to break the cycle and guide them toward the positive mindset, or their strength and opportunity? Usually they even seek and find the answer fir themselves then… one of the many we might have seen… But we know, if we would have given them an possible answer they may not have reacted very differently. So that’s manipulative, right? But its to help not to gain anything for ourselves but the joy of seeing the other get out of that cycle.
I used to feel bad about my manipulations once. I was conscious of doing it, but even if I did it for a good purpose it made me feel "dirty" and made me wonder if I was a bad person, because I affected people's thinking and made them do what I thought was good for them. Over time I have learned to use this tool with greater wisdom, and to accept it. Thank you for these videos of yours, I find myself in them so much and it's nice to know that other people have had the same life experiences :)
Thank you for leaving some words for me ... they are appreciated. Yes, discernment is the key. All of these things are tools in our hands, and can be used properly or improperly.
@@YourNeverSleepingBeauty is it like: you say what you want to say and you lay it bare and you try to explain what you're trying to say and you think you've done so but you feel like you need to say more. You find yourself saying other things and you think your not saying anything but your still saying them. At the end you catch yourself and you say "well it was like that". Is it like that? Idk I saw a guy talking like that recently. I couldn't help but like him. He was getting boomed by someone telling him he just goes on and on saying the same things after saying them once and dragging it out. But I liked him. I couldn't help but mention to him that I liked how he rumbled on. Because the first part was just him saying what he wanted to say but the rest was all why he wanted to say it. I wonder if its like that. Idk maybe I just wanted to mention that guy. But I was listening.
@@joseramirez-hh2sw Yes, it's exactly like that. I edit myself here in order to respect everyone's time and be efficient with it, but I do repeat things a lot when expressing my thoughts out loud. I know why I do it - I'm looking for something. I know it's there but I can't quite find it. So the repeating is many things - a stalling to get more internal thought time, a way to reframe the question to try to dislodge what I'm looking for, and a means to another thought which could also support the original thought. And I'm sure there are more reasons which I'm not even aware of yet. Lots of stuff going on internally. It's hard for me to introspect on my thought process, because it's still a bit foreign for me to even think to do those kinds of things. I think, without always thinking how I'm thinking. But I find it interesting to think about how I'm thinking, so I want to do it more. It takes patience for someone to sit through that (the raw expressed thought). I'm talking about all the thoughts I haven't necessarily pulled together yet internally (because if I have pulled them together, I can be very eloquent in the expression). I know it is at turns both entertaining and interesting.
I think intent is so important. Often, we are quick to believe someone's intent is for ill-will or selfish gain. Why do we do anything in life? Most of us, as far as I can discern, live our lives with the resolve to be our happiest healthiest selves without doing harm to others. This said, I do think most people are self-involved without truly contemplating on the affect of their actions. Of course, there are hinderances every step of the way, and I cannot negate the impact other's actions can have on our own intent regardless if you are purposeful in avoiding manipulative people or not. I try, in earnest, to believe the best of other people. I constantly ask myself, "Am I putting my own insecurities/hurts/perception/bias/judgements on this other person? What is their intent? Did they mean this for harm? Why is this my response? What is my intent?". If we go about life constantly wary that others are manipulating us, it would be exhausting. Ascribing to the belief that most people are doing the best they can in this moment, has allowed me to be more forgiving. I think looking at your own grief through the lens of how you can eventually help others is only possible if you do a great deal of metacognition and retrospection. Not many people can do that after grief or trauma, so I appreciate and admire that you are able to do this, especially without carrying resentment towards people who use platitudes as a way to empathize with your grief. Sometimes, a "That is so unfair and painful. I am sure they were wonderful people." is better than, "It happened for a reason". It all ties into being more thoughtful, and truly listening.
This is the first video I have ever watched of yours, and I'm already looking forward to my next experience. Because this is what your video is- an experience. And thank you for that.
Thank you very much for "visiting" with me. I guess I do create an experience, but mostly, I see it as me trying to pull a bunch of scattered thoughts together!
I like to thing that determining the motive of others is one of my greatest strengths. It is tied to my ability to clearly and objectively observe people and situations. I have actively worked to develop this facet of myself. But even though I see this as a strength, I am still careful to leave open mental caveats to ensure I am getting the whole picture. I see great danger in passing a final judgment in most situations, especially if my judgment leads to an action. Even though I consider myself good at seeing the motivations of others, I find that it can be difficult to determine my own motivation. It is easy to deceive myself into believing my motivations are always pure, but I know that isn't the case. I have caught myself making another feel bad, just because I feel bad. Misery loves company. I've also seen myself make another feel good, just because I feel good. Love loves company too. Emotional manipulation is a double-edged, razor-sharp sword that can be wielded in every direction and can even cut through time. We need to be cautious with it. Great video!!!
How interesting you brought this up (your middle paragraph). I wanted to go there but the video would have gotten too long. I had a story to relate but I left it out. To try to quickly sum up, why is it considered bad when someone is manipulated towards a "negative" emotion yet good when they're manipulated towards a "positive" one? If you think about it, sometimes it's okay to make a person feel bad if that's what they need to grow. Sometimes it's not okay to make a person feel good if it's not what they need to grow. This fence sitting ... hilarious, isn't it? Thanks as always for your thoughts.
@@YourNeverSleepingBeauty wasn't that the whole point of giving Gerber food to the most powerful man in the world thing was about. You know it isn't making feel good or bad what will make them grow is the food. Empty bad feeling won't hurt anyone empty good feeling won't help anyone.
Thank you very much. I have my mother's voice - one of my most beautiful memories from childhood is being snuggled against her, drowsily content as I listened to her speak to others. I'm glad I give the same feeling to you here.
Observe the fruits of ones labour of those who seek your attention and whom you subject yourself to influence by ones persuasive or manipulative tactics. Others can not truly mask their true intentions from you through imagery or selective wording. Remain vigilant. Are they consistent with their message and cause or do they turn as the hour changes? Your Never Sleeping Beauty you truly live a rich contemplative life. Thank You for sharing your wisdom to all who will and need to hear. I do hope you will eventually return to your blog, such intriguing posts I'm eager for more. Peace and Love to All.
Excellent thoughts. How very right you are - vigilance is key. I would like to return to writing on the blog. I realized that it is difficult to build an audience around such topics I wish to write about, which is why I decided to come here and share my efforts.
Manipulation of any kind is immoral! One can be indifferent than be immoral! That's why we have different vocabulary ,if we use it for positive motives
Thank you for your comment. There is a contradiction here. "Positive motives" implies choice. This is not indifference. Indifference is to just be, with no concern/sympathy at all. To be indifferent is to lose what makes us human. Also, if there is motive, then manipulation is inherent.
I've thought a lot about the topic of emotional manipulation in recent time. And this actually begs two big questions for me: 1. Aren't we as INFJ's just in the middle of this manipulation thing ? We're able to see through other peoples manipulation (probably thanks to our NI) but also able to manipulate other people (mostly to help them but sometimes also in a more selfish way to make them like us). Looking at myself, I'd say that I'm a salesman's nightmare (because the more he wants to manipulate me, the less I want the product) and on the other hand I'm catching myself sometimes succesfully manipulating people to like me or open up to me (which I feel bad about afterwards). 2. Going a step up from the first question : aren't we INFJ's the born manipulators because we're able to understand people so well (alltough we don't use that skill that often or if we use it it's mostly for altruistic motives)? Aren't we even able to manipulate the manipulators ? This seems to me like a pretty deep rabbithole to go down, especially if answering question number 2 with yes.
Yes, I think we can be very good mediators, but there are some problems with this in immaturity. I made a video about fence sitting which addresses the problems. I wouldn't say I was born a manipulator. In fact, I was quite gullible as a younger person and easily taken advantage of. I viewed people too idealistically and I needed to get some balance and see people realistically in order to get this part of me straightened out. Do we really "understand" people so well? I believe there are two levels to this understanding and to get to the second level, we have to understand that understanding others is a skill that must be developed. We are naturals at it but having a natural gift doesn't get you as far. For instance, I was naturally gifted in music as a young person. But I needed to develop that talent to make it a skill. It doesn't happen on its own. It's the same with people as well. If we want to really understand people at a higher level, we have to develop the talent into skill.
@@YourNeverSleepingBeauty I just watched your video about fence sitting and I agree that this can be a big issue. I'm still guilty of it, alltough I try to choose my side of the fence more often. This circles back a bit to the "finding your real you" topic. The term born manipulator was a bit too strong and one sided I guess. What I wanted to say, was that we're born with the talent to manipulate. Depending on the viewpoint we do more or less extensively. I think the fact that we're being what another person wants us to be (in immaturity) in order to be liked is a form of manipulation, as is most mediation too. That was my thought process behind the term. It's true that we're highly manipulatable in immaturity but I think that's something that goes away once we learn to trust our intuition more that our idealistic world view. I was highly gullible until a few years ago too. Your two level reprensentation of undestanding people is really great. I think level one is the basics we get to be able to survive (especially as children, going back to the being what other people want topic) and level two has to be developped to be able to effectively do mediation for example.
We're all works in progress, aren't we? _I think the fact that we're being what another person wants us to be (in immaturity) in order to be liked is a form of manipulation, as is most mediation too._ Yes, exactly!
@@YourNeverSleepingBeauty Yes, we're definetely work in progress and that will probably be the case until our life ends. There's always something to learn and improve, that's what (for a good part) makes life interesting, isn't it ?
The motive usually reveals itself over time. Isn't there a saying: watch what people do, not what they say? The word manipulative seems to take on a furtive sense. The word influence takes on a lighter feel, though one can influence another positively or negatively just like one can, if talented enough, manipulate another positively or negatively. I usually can't sit through a movie that is, of course, manipulating me but hasn't swept me into the story. Being swept in happens seldom to me. If not, I get agitated and irritated at what is obviously manipulation that means nothing to me. I lose all interest and sometimes feel so ill at ease throughout the movie, that later, I can barely tell anyone asking what the movie was about. Manipulation in the right hands and for the right reasons maybe should be seen as sacred gift. I think the truly good and gifted would reveal to us a little of what they're doing behind the scenes with their manipulation in order to get our approval to continue.
It is interesting how some words take on negative connotations and others are positive, even though they can mean both. It would be a fun study to see how many words are like this. Like you, I have a difficult time once I sense I am being deliberately manipulated for some kind of selfish agenda. I've been in situations where I have a strong desire to leave the room the minute I am aware of it. It's even harder still to deal with it one-on-one. But I find when it's done from a good place, I can sense it even if it hasn't been revealed. No matter what the intentions are in the manipulations, I find it interesting to study the ones who do it so brilliantly. So much to be learned in how people choose to go about it.
I just can't help but throw a wrench into the "it's all about your motive" judgement as, to quote Rule #1 of cybernetics: The purpose of a system is what it does. The opposite of "good" can, indeed, be "well-intended". On the flipside, there's just no way whatsoever to interact with people and not manipulate them in some way -- even if you deliberately pull back with the intent to have no effect, that very pulling back still affects them. Especially when they're exposing themselves. It's kinda like refusing a hug by folding one's arms. The take-away? You just gotta get good at it. Or at least be willing to get and be good at it. The rest, then, is up to your conscience.
I don't mind wrenches. Are you saying that every social interaction is a manipulation? If so, it becomes almost too broad to define, which is what I guess I was attempting to do. If it's about motive, then does every interaction have motive? It does, but to just leave it at that makes it not even worth talking about. And I can't resist asking - are you an INTJ type?
It was a compliment but INFJ is good too 😆 I had never heard of cybernetics before reading this comment so this will (happily) give me something to look into. Thank you.
@@YourNeverSleepingBeauty In the good ole tradition of calling my past self an idiot, you probably are right about me being an INTJ. As to cybernetics: It's very multi-disciplinary and as such there's a gazillion ways to approach it. The artsy side is quite sparse (or I just don't get art well enough), my recommendations for "all-encompassing treatise and tons of Ni (or: The Book of Genesis done right)" would be Turchin ( pespmc1.vub.ac.be/POSBOOK.html ), for something less high-flung considering human organisational SNAFU, "The Fifth Discipline" ( archive.org/details/fifthdisciplineasen00seng ). Written primarily with managers in mind but the concepts are universal. If nothing else, you'll understand why supermarkets are out of toilet paper right now. For psychology there's Perceptual Control Theory. Often annoyingly non-concrete, OTOH they managed to create a way to do therapy that doesn't require patient and therapist to share a common reality frame, so there's that. Not sure what book to recommend, there. Lots of repetition and hand-holding everywhere, behaviourist minds seem to be hard to crack.
hmm, another sitting on the fence situation though, when you mentioned something about motive behind each manipulation that we used, it did ring a bell to me, most of the time when you know the action that eventually make people suffer, for me personally, i wouldn't practice that, it is really depend on what your intention, using it for own self, rather selfish, was kinda bad in general, but just by leading them in proper way of life, I thought it is a helpful skill for a good leader should acquire, to lead them and guide them, so either good or bad motive behind your manipulation, if people shown their appreciation, i thought it is the right one, otherwise people will brand you as a fraud, or scammer, or even a faker i suppose
It's all fence sitting, really. I find I can take many topics and easily see both sides. It's an enjoyable pursuit for me, this looking right and then left and considering all the viewpoints. It's a healthy practice to weigh different views. Such a good point about leaders. Yes, a brilliant leader is a brilliant manipulator. One could learn much about the art of manipulation by studying the lives of great leaders from the past.
When it comes to religious revivals and emptional manipulation, ive noficed that this is a lot more common with Protestant revivals than it is with Catholic and Orthodox Christians. And I think this has a lot to do with the difference between the Catholic and Orthodox mindset when compared to the Protestant mindset which are radically different. Ive noticed a common thread throughoit the many Protestant traditions where there is an emphasis on the conversion experience and little to nothing after that, because after all, if faith alone is all you need, why care about anything else. For the Catholics, it has a heavy scholastic and philosophical and historical tradition and is very up front about ehst it believes. Its almost the same way with the Orthodox Christians where their faith is considered more than simply a conversion experience but a way of life where manipulating people to make the impulsive decision to join them is considered demonic in character. Also, unlike the Protestants, the Catholics and Orthodox are also cognizant to respect the wishes of parents and dont do things secretly and openly practicing instruction in tje faith and living as an example rather before even allowing someone to be baptized unless they are infants being baptized by their parents. And as someone who has spent a few years studying the history of Christianity, I think a lot of American Protestantism depends on emotional manipulation because if we take a step back and examine the teachings historically and analytically, we see how ideas such as faith alone, grace alone, scripture alone, and so on and so forth are actually openly contradictory and incoherent. Whereas if we examine the history of the Catholics and the Orthodox and the mindset there, its quite logically consistent and based in history with the only thing thats somewhat questionable being the papal claims to infallibility and supremacy. It was also through looking through history and examining things logically that i came to the conclusion that Orthodoxy is the purest form of Christianity and why I am a practicing Eastern Orthodox Christian.
Thank you for this comment. I have enjoyed reading it. I enjoy all thoughtful comments, but this was thoughtful in a different sort of way. And I rarely receive comments like this. I believe most of what I see in American Protestantism has almost nothing to do with the solas of the Reformation. I think if most churches in America held to those ideas, there would not be the “manipulation” we see today, with the altar calls, religious revivals, youth festivals and so forth ... exactly as you state, nothing beyond the conversion experience. It's mostly a sales pitch in some ways, with no substance behind it. I would say that much of what was Catholicism at the time of the Reformation had almost nothing to do with true spiritual growth. The Reformers sought to change that. I don’t see faith alone, grace alone, scripture alone, etc. as openly contradictory and incoherent. They hold together and support one another, by defining truth, authority, and proclamation. It rejects tradition as an authority, because authority is rooted in scripture alone. And so if someone has a belief that the only claim to infallibility and supremacy is God and His Word alone, then the papal claims would follow as heresy.
Cheering someone up can be perceived as emotional manipulation. I would even say that it is. I am actively seeking to change a person's emotional state. Is it better to just leave them be ?
According to the definition, yes it is manipulation. But as I mentioned in my video, what's the motive behind it? And is this a skill you use for good (like in my music making)? I'm guessing your motive is pure and you want the best for the other person. If that's the case, then it's on the other person as to how they receive your "manipulation". In other words, it's a gift you gift someone else. It's up to them if they want to receive it as it's intended.
Why do you play music on a funeral? Is it to help the living people there to go through the process of grief? Maybe to give them room to feel the emotions they have? This is why I sing, to give room to my emotions, to center my mind away from the unhealthy avoidance to function throughout the day. Even if I do that all by myself out in the woods. But the manipulation is not the singing, but avoiding my emotions to work or fit in… than the music I hear, sing or both might just make room to help me feel them and simply be all that I am in that moment, with my emotions.
Yes, I believe it's all that and more. Now that I understand type more, I was comparing two funerals at which I sang. Both songs were requested by the person when they were alive - one was an Fe user and the other Fi. The Fe person specifically chose songs which she believed would impact those hearing it ... mostly the words and the message. I know this, because I knew her well before she died of a brain tumor, and she knew there would be many there who she believed needed to hear the message of the songs. She believed she could still "help" people, even from the grave. In the second case of the Fi user, particular songs were chosen because they were his favorites ... they were songs sung and/or heard in childhood and which had personal meaning from a sentimental perspective. There was no thought to if or how the message of the song would be received by the attendees (and I know this because I knew this person well before his death). It was first about what they meant to him, whereas in the first example, it was first about what it meant to others. And no matter what the motive of the individual, people still heard the music and words and processed it in their own ways. Music is the universal language, so I guess this is why ceremonies and music have been intertwined for millennia. I know exactly what you mean. In singing alone, you are having a moment with yourself. Giving yourself time to feel, which allows something else to happen in the background. I'll sometimes sit down at the piano after a hard day and lose myself for an hour or so. Yes, part of it is an unwinding, but another part of it is a vehicle with which to process all the swirling of the day. Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts with me.
Hey, be so so careful about "religious revivals". You never know what Jesus could do for someone.. I mean Really?? You gotta have a better understanding than watching stuff.. because that's between God and them ❤ some stuff are things you see on the outside, but inside things are countless, a fan
I can't disagree with you. I was speaking here about where the message seems like a hard sell to me, rather than a true desire to save someone. But you are right - "inside things are countless", and no matter the motive of the one giving the call, it could still be used for good. Even so, it would be kind of incredible to do some time travel back to Acts 2 and see what that looked like.
You should have titled the video “Emotional Manipulation; it’s my job” You literally play music at funerals and weddings. If you’re playing at a funeral and people don’t seem sad enough, you can play sadder music. As you strum your instrument you manipulate their emotions
I’m INFJ and I’m a massive manipulator. It’s more often than not manipulating others into making others get what they need. It’s contradictory because it is selfish, I’m doing it because I want the satisfaction of making someone better whilst simultaneously it’s coming from an altruistic mindset because I have no intention of wanting a return. I call this “positive manipulation” as it produces a win-win outcome.
This is a rock solid comment from what must be a mature mindset. I'd argue that younger INFJs do this to some extent but almost have no idea they're doing it. A mature INFJ understands how the whole business works and knows how to work the system, and as you said, does it with purpose. Great comment, thank you. Also, the first sentence was so amusing and made me laugh. For some reason, I imagine sitting around in a circle and someone opening up with, "Hi, I'm INFJ and I'm a massive manipulator".
@@YourNeverSleepingBeauty I’m reading your response to the comment and it’s fascinating how welcoming you are as if you were waiting someone to understand you. I’m an Infj and I’m having this shift toward what I thought it’s real and what reality actually is. Business world taught me about marketing but it was super easy to me! So natural to me. Let’s be real we Infjs manipulate without even knowing and also having good intentions but we are good at it anyway mainly because we understand what people want
@@samtavoosian3059 I do enjoy the comment sections on my videos. The experiences people share, the wisdom they impart, the questions they have ... it's all very interesting to me.
What's real and what's reality ... yes. We live in our idealistic heads a lot, but can be most effective when we can sort of merge the two. Idealism with an edge is how I like to think of it.
Isn’t that what we do if we see someone suffering on their self defeating thoughts snd ask them a question so to break the cycle and guide them toward the positive mindset, or their strength and opportunity?
Usually they even seek and find the answer fir themselves then… one of the many we might have seen…
But we know, if we would have given them an possible answer they may not have reacted very differently. So that’s manipulative, right? But its to help not to gain anything for ourselves but the joy of seeing the other get out of that cycle.
I used to feel bad about my manipulations once. I was conscious of doing it, but even if I did it for a good purpose it made me feel "dirty" and made me wonder if I was a bad person, because I affected people's thinking and made them do what I thought was good for them. Over time I have learned to use this tool with greater wisdom, and to accept it. Thank you for these videos of yours, I find myself in them so much and it's nice to know that other people have had the same life experiences :)
Thank you for leaving some words for me ... they are appreciated. Yes, discernment is the key. All of these things are tools in our hands, and can be used properly or improperly.
Your thoughts are so authentic & real. I love the eloquent delivery of your messages. So resonating. Thank you for your presence here ♥️
Thank you for making yourself known to me with these kind words.
Wow, there is SO much in this and I love where you went at the end... Thank you for sharing!
I don't always know where I'm going to go at the end ... but yet at the same time, I do. Crazy.
@@YourNeverSleepingBeauty is it like: you say what you want to say and you lay it bare and you try to explain what you're trying to say and you think you've done so but you feel like you need to say more. You find yourself saying other things and you think your not saying anything but your still saying them. At the end you catch yourself and you say "well it was like that". Is it like that? Idk I saw a guy talking like that recently. I couldn't help but like him. He was getting boomed by someone telling him he just goes on and on saying the same things after saying them once and dragging it out. But I liked him. I couldn't help but mention to him that I liked how he rumbled on. Because the first part was just him saying what he wanted to say but the rest was all why he wanted to say it. I wonder if its like that. Idk maybe I just wanted to mention that guy. But I was listening.
@@joseramirez-hh2sw Yes, it's exactly like that. I edit myself here in order to respect everyone's time and be efficient with it, but I do repeat things a lot when expressing my thoughts out loud. I know why I do it - I'm looking for something. I know it's there but I can't quite find it. So the repeating is many things - a stalling to get more internal thought time, a way to reframe the question to try to dislodge what I'm looking for, and a means to another thought which could also support the original thought. And I'm sure there are more reasons which I'm not even aware of yet. Lots of stuff going on internally. It's hard for me to introspect on my thought process, because it's still a bit foreign for me to even think to do those kinds of things. I think, without always thinking how I'm thinking. But I find it interesting to think about how I'm thinking, so I want to do it more.
It takes patience for someone to sit through that (the raw expressed thought). I'm talking about all the thoughts I haven't necessarily pulled together yet internally (because if I have pulled them together, I can be very eloquent in the expression). I know it is at turns both entertaining and interesting.
I think intent is so important. Often, we are quick to believe someone's intent is for ill-will or selfish gain. Why do we do anything in life? Most of us, as far as I can discern, live our lives with the resolve to be our happiest healthiest selves without doing harm to others. This said, I do think most people are self-involved without truly contemplating on the affect of their actions. Of course, there are hinderances every step of the way, and I cannot negate the impact other's actions can have on our own intent regardless if you are purposeful in avoiding manipulative people or not. I try, in earnest, to believe the best of other people. I constantly ask myself, "Am I putting my own insecurities/hurts/perception/bias/judgements on this other person? What is their intent? Did they mean this for harm? Why is this my response? What is my intent?". If we go about life constantly wary that others are manipulating us, it would be exhausting. Ascribing to the belief that most people are doing the best they can in this moment, has allowed me to be more forgiving.
I think looking at your own grief through the lens of how you can eventually help others is only possible if you do a great deal of metacognition and retrospection. Not many people can do that after grief or trauma, so I appreciate and admire that you are able to do this, especially without carrying resentment towards people who use platitudes as a way to empathize with your grief. Sometimes, a "That is so unfair and painful. I am sure they were wonderful people." is better than, "It happened for a reason". It all ties into being more thoughtful, and truly listening.
This is the first video I have ever watched of yours, and I'm already looking forward to my next experience. Because this is what your video is- an experience. And thank you for that.
Thank you very much for "visiting" with me. I guess I do create an experience, but mostly, I see it as me trying to pull a bunch of scattered thoughts together!
I like to thing that determining the motive of others is one of my greatest strengths. It is tied to my ability to clearly and objectively observe people and situations. I have actively worked to develop this facet of myself. But even though I see this as a strength, I am still careful to leave open mental caveats to ensure I am getting the whole picture. I see great danger in passing a final judgment in most situations, especially if my judgment leads to an action.
Even though I consider myself good at seeing the motivations of others, I find that it can be difficult to determine my own motivation. It is easy to deceive myself into believing my motivations are always pure, but I know that isn't the case. I have caught myself making another feel bad, just because I feel bad. Misery loves company. I've also seen myself make another feel good, just because I feel good. Love loves company too.
Emotional manipulation is a double-edged, razor-sharp sword that can be wielded in every direction and can even cut through time. We need to be cautious with it. Great video!!!
How interesting you brought this up (your middle paragraph). I wanted to go there but the video would have gotten too long. I had a story to relate but I left it out. To try to quickly sum up, why is it considered bad when someone is manipulated towards a "negative" emotion yet good when they're manipulated towards a "positive" one? If you think about it, sometimes it's okay to make a person feel bad if that's what they need to grow. Sometimes it's not okay to make a person feel good if it's not what they need to grow.
This fence sitting ... hilarious, isn't it? Thanks as always for your thoughts.
@@YourNeverSleepingBeauty as always, great point!
@@YourNeverSleepingBeauty wasn't that the whole point of giving Gerber food to the most powerful man in the world thing was about. You know it isn't making feel good or bad what will make them grow is the food. Empty bad feeling won't hurt anyone empty good feeling won't help anyone.
@@joseramirez-hh2sw Yes, that was the whole point. I just like to repeat myself when given the opportunity. I'm manipulative in that way 😉
When you realized manipulation is same as teaching and training or even assessing.
Yep 😆
I really love your voice and topics. Without any background, very comforting and soothing, you make me feel safe and loved ☺
Thank you very much. I have my mother's voice - one of my most beautiful memories from childhood is being snuggled against her, drowsily content as I listened to her speak to others. I'm glad I give the same feeling to you here.
Observe the fruits of ones labour of those who seek your attention and whom you subject yourself to influence by ones persuasive or manipulative tactics.
Others can not truly mask their true intentions from you through imagery or selective wording. Remain vigilant.
Are they consistent with their message and cause or do they turn as the hour changes?
Your Never Sleeping Beauty you truly live a rich contemplative life. Thank You for sharing your wisdom to all who will and need to hear.
I do hope you will eventually return to your blog, such intriguing posts I'm eager for more.
Peace and Love to All.
Excellent thoughts. How very right you are - vigilance is key.
I would like to return to writing on the blog. I realized that it is difficult to build an audience around such topics I wish to write about, which is why I decided to come here and share my efforts.
Manipulation of any kind is immoral! One can be indifferent than be immoral! That's why we have different vocabulary ,if we use it for positive motives
Thank you for your comment. There is a contradiction here. "Positive motives" implies choice. This is not indifference. Indifference is to just be, with no concern/sympathy at all. To be indifferent is to lose what makes us human. Also, if there is motive, then manipulation is inherent.
you fear to be manipulated, thats why u say its wrong.
I need to write you a nice comment soon. I’m still soaking up what I think, though.
Love you and your insights!
Take all the time you need to reflect. Even if you never leave a comment, it's enough for me to know I've made you think. Your hearts make me smile.
I've thought a lot about the topic of emotional manipulation in recent time. And this actually begs two big questions for me:
1. Aren't we as INFJ's just in the middle of this manipulation thing ? We're able to see through other peoples manipulation (probably thanks to our NI) but also able to manipulate other people (mostly to help them but sometimes also in a more selfish way to make them like us). Looking at myself, I'd say that I'm a salesman's nightmare (because the more he wants to manipulate me, the less I want the product) and on the other hand I'm catching myself sometimes succesfully manipulating people to like me or open up to me (which I feel bad about afterwards).
2. Going a step up from the first question : aren't we INFJ's the born manipulators because we're able to understand people so well (alltough we don't use that skill that often or if we use it it's mostly for altruistic motives)? Aren't we even able to manipulate the manipulators ?
This seems to me like a pretty deep rabbithole to go down, especially if answering question number 2 with yes.
Yes, I think we can be very good mediators, but there are some problems with this in immaturity. I made a video about fence sitting which addresses the problems.
I wouldn't say I was born a manipulator. In fact, I was quite gullible as a younger person and easily taken advantage of. I viewed people too idealistically and I needed to get some balance and see people realistically in order to get this part of me straightened out.
Do we really "understand" people so well? I believe there are two levels to this understanding and to get to the second level, we have to understand that understanding others is a skill that must be developed. We are naturals at it but having a natural gift doesn't get you as far. For instance, I was naturally gifted in music as a young person. But I needed to develop that talent to make it a skill. It doesn't happen on its own. It's the same with people as well. If we want to really understand people at a higher level, we have to develop the talent into skill.
@@YourNeverSleepingBeauty I just watched your video about fence sitting and I agree that this can be a big issue. I'm still guilty of it, alltough I try to choose my side of the fence more often. This circles back a bit to the "finding your real you" topic.
The term born manipulator was a bit too strong and one sided I guess. What I wanted to say, was that we're born with the talent to manipulate. Depending on the viewpoint we do more or less extensively. I think the fact that we're being what another person wants us to be (in immaturity) in order to be liked is a form of manipulation, as is most mediation too. That was my thought process behind the term.
It's true that we're highly manipulatable in immaturity but I think that's something that goes away once we learn to trust our intuition more that our idealistic world view. I was highly gullible until a few years ago too.
Your two level reprensentation of undestanding people is really great. I think level one is the basics we get to be able to survive (especially as children, going back to the being what other people want topic) and level two has to be developped to be able to effectively do mediation for example.
We're all works in progress, aren't we? _I think the fact that we're being what another person wants us to be (in immaturity) in order to be liked is a form of manipulation, as is most mediation too._ Yes, exactly!
@@YourNeverSleepingBeauty Yes, we're definetely work in progress and that will probably be the case until our life ends.
There's always something to learn and improve, that's what (for a good part) makes life interesting, isn't it ?
The motive usually reveals itself over time. Isn't there a saying: watch what people do, not what they say? The word manipulative seems to take on a furtive sense. The word influence takes on a lighter feel, though one can influence another positively or negatively just like one can, if talented enough, manipulate another positively or negatively. I usually can't sit through a movie that is, of course, manipulating me but hasn't swept me into the story. Being swept in happens seldom to me. If not, I get agitated and irritated at what is obviously manipulation that means nothing to me. I lose all interest and sometimes feel so ill at ease throughout the movie, that later, I can barely tell anyone asking what the movie was about.
Manipulation in the right hands and for the right reasons maybe should be seen as sacred gift. I think the truly good and gifted would reveal to us a little of what they're doing behind the scenes with their manipulation in order to get our approval to continue.
It is interesting how some words take on negative connotations and others are positive, even though they can mean both. It would be a fun study to see how many words are like this. Like you, I have a difficult time once I sense I am being deliberately manipulated for some kind of selfish agenda. I've been in situations where I have a strong desire to leave the room the minute I am aware of it. It's even harder still to deal with it one-on-one. But I find when it's done from a good place, I can sense it even if it hasn't been revealed. No matter what the intentions are in the manipulations, I find it interesting to study the ones who do it so brilliantly. So much to be learned in how people choose to go about it.
I just can't help but throw a wrench into the "it's all about your motive" judgement as, to quote Rule #1 of cybernetics: The purpose of a system is what it does. The opposite of "good" can, indeed, be "well-intended". On the flipside, there's just no way whatsoever to interact with people and not manipulate them in some way -- even if you deliberately pull back with the intent to have no effect, that very pulling back still affects them. Especially when they're exposing themselves. It's kinda like refusing a hug by folding one's arms.
The take-away? You just gotta get good at it. Or at least be willing to get and be good at it. The rest, then, is up to your conscience.
I don't mind wrenches. Are you saying that every social interaction is a manipulation? If so, it becomes almost too broad to define, which is what I guess I was attempting to do. If it's about motive, then does every interaction have motive? It does, but to just leave it at that makes it not even worth talking about.
And I can't resist asking - are you an INTJ type?
@@YourNeverSleepingBeauty I'm quite reasonably sure that I'm not an INTJ and what you read was pure Ni-Ti nitpicking. I really do like my cybernetics.
It was a compliment but INFJ is good too 😆 I had never heard of cybernetics before reading this comment so this will (happily) give me something to look into. Thank you.
@@YourNeverSleepingBeauty In the good ole tradition of calling my past self an idiot, you probably are right about me being an INTJ.
As to cybernetics: It's very multi-disciplinary and as such there's a gazillion ways to approach it. The artsy side is quite sparse (or I just don't get art well enough), my recommendations for "all-encompassing treatise and tons of Ni (or: The Book of Genesis done right)" would be Turchin ( pespmc1.vub.ac.be/POSBOOK.html ), for something less high-flung considering human organisational SNAFU, "The Fifth Discipline" ( archive.org/details/fifthdisciplineasen00seng ). Written primarily with managers in mind but the concepts are universal. If nothing else, you'll understand why supermarkets are out of toilet paper right now. For psychology there's Perceptual Control Theory. Often annoyingly non-concrete, OTOH they managed to create a way to do therapy that doesn't require patient and therapist to share a common reality frame, so there's that. Not sure what book to recommend, there. Lots of repetition and hand-holding everywhere, behaviourist minds seem to be hard to crack.
hmm, another sitting on the fence situation though, when you mentioned something about motive behind each manipulation that we used, it did ring a bell to me, most of the time when you know the action that eventually make people suffer, for me personally, i wouldn't practice that, it is really depend on what your intention, using it for own self, rather selfish, was kinda bad in general, but just by leading them in proper way of life, I thought it is a helpful skill for a good leader should acquire, to lead them and guide them, so either good or bad motive behind your manipulation, if people shown their appreciation, i thought it is the right one, otherwise people will brand you as a fraud, or scammer, or even a faker i suppose
It's all fence sitting, really. I find I can take many topics and easily see both sides. It's an enjoyable pursuit for me, this looking right and then left and considering all the viewpoints. It's a healthy practice to weigh different views. Such a good point about leaders. Yes, a brilliant leader is a brilliant manipulator. One could learn much about the art of manipulation by studying the lives of great leaders from the past.
When it comes to religious revivals and emptional manipulation, ive noficed that this is a lot more common with Protestant revivals than it is with Catholic and Orthodox Christians. And I think this has a lot to do with the difference between the Catholic and Orthodox mindset when compared to the Protestant mindset which are radically different. Ive noticed a common thread throughoit the many Protestant traditions where there is an emphasis on the conversion experience and little to nothing after that, because after all, if faith alone is all you need, why care about anything else. For the Catholics, it has a heavy scholastic and philosophical and historical tradition and is very up front about ehst it believes. Its almost the same way with the Orthodox Christians where their faith is considered more than simply a conversion experience but a way of life where manipulating people to make the impulsive decision to join them is considered demonic in character. Also, unlike the Protestants, the Catholics and Orthodox are also cognizant to respect the wishes of parents and dont do things secretly and openly practicing instruction in tje faith and living as an example rather before even allowing someone to be baptized unless they are infants being baptized by their parents. And as someone who has spent a few years studying the history of Christianity, I think a lot of American Protestantism depends on emotional manipulation because if we take a step back and examine the teachings historically and analytically, we see how ideas such as faith alone, grace alone, scripture alone, and so on and so forth are actually openly contradictory and incoherent. Whereas if we examine the history of the Catholics and the Orthodox and the mindset there, its quite logically consistent and based in history with the only thing thats somewhat questionable being the papal claims to infallibility and supremacy. It was also through looking through history and examining things logically that i came to the conclusion that Orthodoxy is the purest form of Christianity and why I am a practicing Eastern Orthodox Christian.
Thank you for this comment. I have enjoyed reading it. I enjoy all thoughtful comments, but this was thoughtful in a different sort of way. And I rarely receive comments like this.
I believe most of what I see in American Protestantism has almost nothing to do with the solas of the Reformation. I think if most churches in America held to those ideas, there would not be the “manipulation” we see today, with the altar calls, religious revivals, youth festivals and so forth ... exactly as you state, nothing beyond the conversion experience. It's mostly a sales pitch in some ways, with no substance behind it.
I would say that much of what was Catholicism at the time of the Reformation had almost nothing to do with true spiritual growth. The Reformers sought to change that.
I don’t see faith alone, grace alone, scripture alone, etc. as openly contradictory and incoherent. They hold together and support one another, by defining truth, authority, and proclamation. It rejects tradition as an authority, because authority is rooted in scripture alone. And so if someone has a belief that the only claim to infallibility and supremacy is God and His Word alone, then the papal claims would follow as heresy.
Cheering someone up can be perceived as emotional manipulation. I would even say that it is. I am actively seeking to change a person's emotional state. Is it better to just leave them be ?
According to the definition, yes it is manipulation. But as I mentioned in my video, what's the motive behind it? And is this a skill you use for good (like in my music making)? I'm guessing your motive is pure and you want the best for the other person. If that's the case, then it's on the other person as to how they receive your "manipulation". In other words, it's a gift you gift someone else. It's up to them if they want to receive it as it's intended.
Why do you play music on a funeral? Is it to help the living people there to go through the process of grief? Maybe to give them room to feel the emotions they have?
This is why I sing, to give room to my emotions, to center my mind away from the unhealthy avoidance to function throughout the day. Even if I do that all by myself out in the woods. But the manipulation is not the singing, but avoiding my emotions to work or fit in… than the music I hear, sing or both might just make room to help me feel them and simply be all that I am in that moment, with my emotions.
Yes, I believe it's all that and more. Now that I understand type more, I was comparing two funerals at which I sang. Both songs were requested by the person when they were alive - one was an Fe user and the other Fi. The Fe person specifically chose songs which she believed would impact those hearing it ... mostly the words and the message. I know this, because I knew her well before she died of a brain tumor, and she knew there would be many there who she believed needed to hear the message of the songs. She believed she could still "help" people, even from the grave. In the second case of the Fi user, particular songs were chosen because they were his favorites ... they were songs sung and/or heard in childhood and which had personal meaning from a sentimental perspective. There was no thought to if or how the message of the song would be received by the attendees (and I know this because I knew this person well before his death). It was first about what they meant to him, whereas in the first example, it was first about what it meant to others. And no matter what the motive of the individual, people still heard the music and words and processed it in their own ways.
Music is the universal language, so I guess this is why ceremonies and music have been intertwined for millennia.
I know exactly what you mean. In singing alone, you are having a moment with yourself. Giving yourself time to feel, which allows something else to happen in the background. I'll sometimes sit down at the piano after a hard day and lose myself for an hour or so. Yes, part of it is an unwinding, but another part of it is a vehicle with which to process all the swirling of the day.
Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts with me.
@@YourNeverSleepingBeauty what great insight! Thank you so much for sharing this!
I wouldn’t have put it together if you hadn’t asked the question. So thank you!
@8:30 this is is using feelings rather than thought to make decision. This is impulsive.
Hey, be so so careful about "religious revivals". You never know what Jesus could do for someone.. I mean Really?? You gotta have a better understanding than watching stuff.. because that's between God and them ❤ some stuff are things you see on the outside, but inside things are countless, a fan
I can't disagree with you. I was speaking here about where the message seems like a hard sell to me, rather than a true desire to save someone. But you are right - "inside things are countless", and no matter the motive of the one giving the call, it could still be used for good. Even so, it would be kind of incredible to do some time travel back to Acts 2 and see what that looked like.
💛💛
You should have titled the video “Emotional Manipulation; it’s my job”
You literally play music at funerals and weddings. If you’re playing at a funeral and people don’t seem sad enough, you can play sadder music. As you strum your instrument you manipulate their emotions
I only use emotional manipulation in one of my jobs so your title wouldn’t be accurate.
:)