Quality Hide Glue From Scratch #6, part 2, Cutting and Drying
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- Опубліковано 11 жов 2024
- After pouring out the glue it is cooled and cut into cubes or strips before drying. Drying hide glue can be tricky. If it heats up too much while it is still very wet, it will melt and run. Air circulation and moderate temperatures are required until the glue is mostly dry. The dried glue can be stored indefinitely.
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Thank you so much. When I was your age I was also dedicated to primitive skills. I'm so glad to see your talent in both the draft and in the teaching...and willingness to keep these skills alive for all kinds of people who could need this knowledge anywhere. Just...Thank you and bless you!
Thanks Diane :)
@@SkillCult ❤️
hide glue and thunderstorms. that was an interesting excerpt. i wonder what that's about. i love the little tidbits of info here.
It's about ozone! We don't get them hardly at all here, but back east where they are common, I could see it being a real problem.
I really admire your dedication and your way of living, even after six years we're learning from you.
This was a very excellent series. Thanks for sharing.
Should still be a couple more coming.
@@SkillCultit was wonderful! I’m going to watch some of your tanning videos next (today or tomorrow).
Wow, You have a lot of work in them. Glad they turned out well for you. Thanks for sharing what you do.
thanks :)
All these videos that you did were simply the best videos I've ever watched...Thank you for teaching.
Thanks so much. Lots more in the chute!
Hide glue is really useful glue, thanks for your tutorial about producing it,
Thank You for sharing a little bit of your vast knowledge about processing skins and hide glue!! Excellent teaching step by step!! Liked !! Subbed !
Thanks Jim and welcome.
Hey Steven, that was a very nice series. I had it on the list for a long time and I'm happy I finally watched it. Must be very satisfying to have such a nice product after all that work! :)
This series is incredible. Thanks for sharing it with all of us. I looked at a couple of hide glue products out there, and they contain additives. I talked to one manufacturer (Milligan & Higgins), and they say foamers and preservatives must be added to prevent bacteria from growing in the glue once you melt some up, so that you can have enough time to use it up before it 'rots'. However, they won't share what those foamers and preservatives are, of course. One other company, Behlen, lists some of the ingredients on their can, including "surfactant", ethanol, methyl 4-hydroxybenzoate, and polypropylene glycol. I'm interested in finding a product with no additives. Do you have any leads on where to find? Or thoughts on companies adding these additives?
Thanks Felicia. I think you might do okay with just plain unflavored gelatin. You could look on some forums to see what people think of it, but it will definitely work. The instrument makers know the most and are the most picky. www.google.com/search?q=gelatin+unflavored+violin+hide+glue&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1
I don't know why I thought that jello (gelatin) was different than what you're making. Now that you say it, I remember you saying in your video "this is the same is jello...or gelatin!" i just didn't make the connection even though you said it! After testing Titebond Products for formaldehyde, we found that only the Titebond Original seemed to be safe in terms of off-gassing formaldehyde. but, i'm a nerd i guess and i like to see if things can be achieved old school, and without added chemicals...i mean, they used to do it without additives, or did they? i know there were some nasty things used in the 'old school' at times.
I guess I always thought that gelatin was made from bones...that's what I always heard!! Maybe you can clear up one thing....when I make broth, I use a huge cow 'knuckle bone.' often, i get what i thought was gelatin, as it congeals when cooled. i do believe you said that bones are not suitable for making gelatin glue though....?
I received a reply from Kremer, and it sounds like they don't add any preservative to their Sturgeon glue.
Thank you for the series, I will try it with sheep hide.
this is some serious kitchen work
Impressive process and a big job. Thank you for sharing this technique.
Hi ! Congratulation for the video! I am Violin Maker and it was really interesting to see all the process to make hide glue, your glue coming with a very nice transparent color, that I use always has a darker color, maybe it's because it has more impurities or is more cooked? I have not idea. Thanks for the video!!! 😃
clarity in this case may just be due to preparing the material very carefully. I doubt industrial processes are as thorough. As far as strength, I don't know though. I have heard from wood workers that they don't always want the strongest, but look for other properties like working time and shrinkage?
I would enjoy seeing the next set of videos on an easier method to make it.
It's in process...
If you cook it a third time you can add a can of enchilada sauce and just sell it as menudo. :D
thank you so much to share your experience . i think it will be useful for everyone
I think i just learned to do it in winter months
Better, but it can be done other times of year. I doubt most glue manufacturers halted operations completely for the warm season. They also had drafted drying sheds though.
Nice glue, I'd eat it.
People may do well with a warning not to let hide glue dry on glass or glazed pottery. The stuff is crazy strong and will rip flakes of glass with it as it shrinks
I am curious about the left-over hide, after the first poor: I wonder if you rinsed it duncked it into tannin, what would be left in there? Surly not a good quality leather, but it would be interesting to see what happened to a small test piece!
It is totally runined for any kind of tanning. It shrinks and the fibers are destroyed.
@@SkillCult makes sense! I would not expect anything "good", but I am also always curious and tinkering with things!
Awesome! I'm going to have to give this a try with one of my buckskins. Just a thought would it help any to were gloves while handling the cubes in the drying process? I was just thinking about all the oils, acids, salts we have on our hands getting into the glue with all the rubbing.
I doubt it really matters, but I suppose you could. Seems unnecessary.
What do you plan on doing with all this glue? Maybe I'm wrong but it seems like a lot.
This could be done in cooler seasons right? Or am I missing something that requires it being done now?
Excellent series. I don't think there is a channel quite like yours on UA-cam.
It keeps indefinitely, so I don't mind hoarding it. I sell it too, but I don't sell a lot because I have to charge so much. Yeah, you can do it at other times of year. I've been on this project for a year or more, so I just wanted to get it done and tie up loose ends. I'm saving the last cook till it cools off though.
Thanks for the reply.
This was also something of a feasibility study to me. I wanted to do a larger skin through and get a feel for how the process might be streamlined and if it could be feasible to sell a high quality small batch hide glue to craftspeople. Even with major efficiency improvements and facilities set up, it would be tough, but I'm not sure it's totally infeasible if the right market were to be accessed.
Is hide glue food safe? I recall reading and hearing that is can be used as a gelatin base, but I don't know the validity of that statement. Also, assuming it is food safe, would you recommend the use of cast iron pots to render the glue in?
If it's made cleanly enough with nothing toxic in the processing for sure. It's just gelatin. The problems would be processing contaminants and possibly bacterial toxins. I bought some fancy grass fed gelatin for 20.00 a pound and the shit smells and tastes like sun baked roadkill. it's a very popular brand. I'm not inclined to taste mine, but I would n't be surprised if it tastes better than that crap. You could easily turn your pig skins into edible grade gelatin, but just using food safe processing thoughout. The lime is no problem at all, just a little extra calcium.. assuming it's clean, shells would be the safest. I would stay away from iron. The traditional metal was copper, which is expensive, so there must be a reason they didn't use iron. I'm sure it just sticks to the protein and causes some kind of change. I think stainless is ideal. I've made it before in a double boiler type of arrangement. it cooks nice and gentle that way. very even.
Hey, so my partner and I have been making a lot of hide glue over the last few months or so. With a whole hide specifically for glue, offcuts and big thick necks we couldn't be assed with tanning. We have learnt a lot. We get a storm season where we are in the warm temperature region of Australia so that's been interesting to navigate. We have found the glue still glues but perhaps not as strong. We have had different grades (clarity of glue) depending (we guess) on how much we cleaned the hide when scudding. Weve ended up with quite the batch and planning on selling some but honestly struggling on the price as its so labour intensive in ways. Would love to hear how much you did charge for that small batch you sold? And we have been eating it! The clearer stuff anyway. I wouldn't say it smells like shit roadkill but just very flavour less. We put it in our hot beverages and we made jelly the other day with beet kvass and honey and the kids gobbled it up! It was bloody delicious! After making this batch though it hasn't felt like this could be a viable income just because of how much you would have to charge and yet wanting it to be accessible. I wonder how you could speed up different steps?
We wanted to powder the glue to make it easier for people to use but don't have a solid grinder. Have you found a way to powder it in a low tech way? Or even the appropriate grinder?
Thought I'd share with you our experience and ask a few questions. Cheers mate
What ever I sold it for, it wasn't enough lol. I'm not sure if you could make it viable. Maybe with machines to help with fleshing and scudding. Yeah, gotta watch out for those thunderstorms. We don't have them here often. I"ve never tried to powder it. it's so tough, it seems like you'd need a pretty tough machine. Maybe a commerical grain grinder or something like that. sorry I can't help more. But let me know when you figure it all out for me :)
Hi, Can you please tell me if it's edible ? Like what if someone eats it ? (I am asking this question bcz there are some ancient medicinal references i came along where it's used internally as a medicine ) , this is the reason why I was searching for clear most Hide glue and come to know that you have uploaded a complete series of that.
Would really love to know whether do you ever heard about people eating it ? Or taking it internally or any kind of medicinal purpose ?
It could be if care were taken for sure. Just keep everyting clean, soaking times as short as possible, quick liming., or shave the hair off instead maybe.
Ayy I have an intention to make glue out of saved up deer leg tendons, would it be better to smash them up into the broken down fibers before cooking or soak them and cut em up with a scissors leaving them mostly intact?
They might break down faster, so probably better. It is not necessary though. You could try choppign them dry with a sharp hatchet. that might be easy.
I'm curious to know how store bought gelatin powder would compare. Could you test that if you ever build a test apparatus?
I doubt I'll ever get around to that. Tim baker tested hide glue and gelatin I think in his article on hide glue in one of the traditional bowyer's bible books. It was either book two or three. I know he had a picture of chips of glass pulled off the bottom of a pyrex dish with store gelatin. I'm sure it's plenty strong for most uses at the very least.
truly great learning experience! thanks for posting and will make an order when i'm in need of a next batch. are you on facebook?
cool, thanks for the feedback. I am on facebook! facebook.com/skillcult/
thanks for the positive feedback. I am on facebook! facebook.com/skillcult/
I think that you could have made a really interesting with the drying process.
Sure, cutting the glue into smaller pieces is definitely the method that yields the best result. The small pieces can be placed easily in any container and the quantity is easily measured with measuring cups.
However, perhaps the "easiest" drying method would be to take the glue (in its gelatin state) still as a sheet, and then pierce maybe 4 holes through each end and just tie a small knot with fishing line and hanged beneath a tree branch. The wind would allow it to dry properly, which means not having to cut and turn over the smaller bits of glue around for so long.
Of course this method doesn't work if the glue sheet is too heavy, or the weather is too warm even in the shade, but it could work and be faster, i'm guessing
You could also cut it in just large strips hang them out to dry. that way it could be a middle ground.
For the way I use glue and the way people I would sell small amounts to would use it, cutting it is pretty much the only way for me to go. If I didn't cut it,, I'd dry it on nets like was traditional. But, i would also probably pour it out thinner, first which means more pouring and cooling time, or more containers. Not sure about hanging, it sounds risky with the gel I was working with, maybe it if was cooked down or dried a while in sheets first, but nets are easy enough.
I see, many thanks my friend, I'm going to look up your videos on how to actually tan, and am currently watching the videos about the seashells as I was very curious about how to actually produce my own lime.
Alright, I think I have the process down. Please humor me while I recite it back at you in my own words to ensure iI got it right.
Hot water is introduced to a clean hide. This dissolves the hide forming a viscous fluid. This fluid is poured off through a strainer into a glass container (to prevent stinking) where it is left to cool. As it cools it turns into a gel. Once the gel has hardened sufficient to be handled, it is cut into much smaller pieces to better facilitate the drying process. Drying is to take place in a cool well ventilated environment. Where direct heat is present in undried glue, it melts. The glue must be kept out of direct sunlight until all moisture has evaporate to prevent the glue from melting.
If you started with a clean hide (as in no hair, fat, or other debris on it) and reduced it in hot water, only to let it dry out again (for the sake of storage, but nevertheless), didn't you just go full circle back to raw hide? Or does the cooking process chemically alter the protein structure into something else?
Why is it that a second and third pour off is weaker than the first? What is being added into the solution to weaken it? If the hide is clean (and yours was), the only ingredients in the pot are hide and water. What's causing the weakening? Surely it isn't a variance in the ratio of the two. And if so, that's easily modified and doesn't explained how the second and third pours are inherently weaker.
You mentioned refrigerating the glue to dry it out. Is this a viable, and faster option? Or is the extremely temperature shift not ideal?
Pardon me for being so forward and brunt, but I am really fascinated by this and have many questions on it. I'd love an opportunity to sit down around a campfire with you and just pick your brain about it in a way ill-befitting internet Q&A. Great video, and beautiful end product.
Yeah, that sounds about right. Most of the stuff I've read about it is very old. I don't recall them talking about exactly why the later pours are weaker. It is definitely not ratio, because you can alway cook it down. I believe a main reason is just accumulated damage to the proteins by heat. By cooking gently and in as short a time as possible, you minimize damage. These guys already knew the result of overcooking from a production perspective. I think I may remember reading something about the more easily extracted collagen being better too, but I'm not sure. If you dig into google books you can find those old manuals and read up on it. I plan to go back to them now that I'm building more context. It's hard to remember all that stuff when I have so many interests competing for real estate in my brain, but the more context there is the easier it is to pick out the most useful info and retain it.
I can tell you that the batch I cooked the longest from the last remaining stuff seems very weak. I can snap a stick of it in half easily and it breaks weakly. The good stuff bends and strains a lot before it explodes violently apart. It is like rawhide. I'm not sure chemically what changes the collagen my undergo, but a piece of rawhide will glue down to itself which is what makes it tough. Part of tanning is disrupting that ability. What is definitely different is that the collagen in skin is organized into a network of fibers. I've also noticed that bone soup stock or any meat soup broth if cooked at high heat, or for too long (or both) will start to taste shitty and become cloudy. I've often thought that might be at least partially due to the degradation of the proteins into constituent amino acids. For glue, the proteins in the skin have a property that we want. I think the simple answer to it all is still that over cooking fucks it up. Why would be interesting to know, but it's icing on the cake.
A common mistake is to use too much water. I did it on almost every batch this time around. My new rule is to start by only adding water to half way up the glue stock. If you pour it off and it turns out to be too watery, set it in a low heat oven (maybe like 120?) for a while and the excess water can be gently evaporated until it will gel solidly enough to handle easily.
I know some references give temps and say to raise it a little with each cook I haven't gotten into measuring and controlling the temps yet.
Interesting! So, which batch, 1st or 2nd "cook off", would be the stronger glue? Why not cooking the 1st batch longer to avoid the 2nd batch?
I suppose you could. I think the first batch is probably the highest quality. If you cook til everything is dissolved, I think it might weaken the overall batch. I'm not sure though.
@@SkillCult I am not a chemist, but, if you cock it, you extract proteins. The longer you cook it, the more water evaporates, the higher the protein part. After drying, nearly all the water is gone and the residual part should be "pure" protein. Now, the question is, and I have no idea, see 1st sentence, if there is anything else than protein that is constituting the glue?! If this is the case, the 1st batch might be different from the 2nd batch. If not, the process of the 2nd batch might simply be much longer ... as their is less protein left in the hides and the water content in relation to available protein is simply higher at the beginning of the 1st batch / cocking process. Further, there seem to be different proteins in hide glue and rabbit skin glue and fish glue ..... fascinating.
@@Principe6900 I think the issue might be degradation of the proteins. They probably eventually degrade and get broken down into components, which I guess would be amino acids? I"m pretty sure the books say don't boil too hard and don't cook too long. Also, every time you recook and dry the glue it is supposed to make it weaker. Again, probably the same effect of the proteins losing their properties by degradation of some kind.
@@Principe6900 Probably the best book to check out is dowidowsky, something like animal glues, pastes and mucilages I think. I;'m pretty sure it's available as a digital download through my website skillcult.com/freestuff
@@SkillCult Thanks, it is fascinating!
When you need to use them to glue something do you have to rehydrate and heat or just heat them?
I wonder if you could use those raw hide dog bones to make this stuff?
I don't see why not. I think there are videos of people doing that.
I am curious about methods of waterproofing hide glue. The internet tells me that adding tannin into the water when re-hydrating your glue will do it, as will smoking the glue after use. Any truth to these?
tannin will make collagen insoluble, but as far as a practical application, I'm not sure. It seems unlikely. Formaldahyde has been used though. I'm not sure what the exact process is..
What are your thoughts about building a sealed container and using salt to dehydrate the cut up pieces?
Seems unnecessary and it would probably be much too slow. dry near a fire if there is no sun.
SkillCult Thanks! I got your book as well, very informative!
are you going to post how to reconstitute and use? and dos and donts?
I will do a video to tie up the series and a few basic dos and don'ts, but there are already better videos on using hide glue in woodworking than I could do. It's best to soak in cool water until swelled all the way, then heat to dissolve, but avoid hard boiling, just as when making it.
Got it. Thanks man
Good job. So interesting I want to see something glued and tested so bad.
Theoretically could you make this from Rawhide dog chews?
I haven't, but I don't see any reason why not. It is probably already clean enough to just soak, cut up and cook.
Howbout cool it with refrigerator and then cut it? Any different?
That could certainly firm it up more.
For what materials is that glue good to use on? And is it as strong as modern glues?
Back in the day it was probably used on everything, but it is also an ingredient in other cements or glues of various types. Now it is mostly used on wood by people who want a traditional glue or who want to make something that can be taken apart and repaired in the future. It is very strong. When used on wood, the joints should usually be stronger than the wood, though weaker grades are sometimes used so that they joint will fail before the wood does. Here is a video testing different grades of hide glue at a violin school. ua-cam.com/video/WBdbTPv172c/v-deo.html
+SkillCult Thanks for your answers.I am tempted to try it as I have half a bull rawhide(other half is oaktanning).
If the skin is already in pretty good shape should be pretty easy. Just do a micro batch. Main thing is don't start with too much water. I added to much on almost every batch this time. You can always add a little hot water as needed. Get it thick enough to pour early on by using less water, then do a couple more extractions.
A weird question: is it edible? Cause it kind of looks delicious (probably is disgusting, but might be a good source of collagen in bad times) :P
same thing pretty much as gelatin that you make jello with! This stuff probably wouldn't taste great, but one popular brand that costs about 20.00 a pound tastes like it's made from sun baked roadkill.
I mean popular brand of food grade gelatin...
That might actually explain historical accounts of people boiling leather boots for food during prolonged sieges ;)
plz
what is the good price for 1 kilo ?
It is organic. Does it spoil? I mean like meat, is it possible insects cause it to spoil?
Not when it's dry. and it only works if it is dry
@@SkillCult Thank You. Can we dry the excess again after using the glue? Does the quality change?
Is fabric bonding powder a type of hide glue?
I'm not familiar with that. If it's gelatin or collagen, it's hide glue. There is also bone glue, which is different, but similar.
Is parchment clippings the same glue?
In most cases. Some parchment is tanned or partly tanned, but most is basically refined rawhide. Parchment clippings would have been used for glue production in the old days for sure, and possibly the shavings from making it.
I want to buy hide glue. Pls give me the link.
I don't have any, sorry. I probably will not make it again.
Bonjour de Montpellier/ France: Question, En France ont parle de colle de peau de LAPIN. Pourquoi aux USA et autres pays Anglais le terme utilisé est " peau animale." Il est pas bien d'utiliser le mot lapin. Hi Hi Hi .
il existe de nombreux skins qui peuvent être utilisés. Le lapin n'est pas beaucoup utilisé ici. Les différentes colles de différentes peaux d'animaux ont des propriétés différentes et sont utilisées pour différents métiers et arts. La plupart des colles pour peaux d'animaux ici sont fabriquées à partir de bovins.
How can i use the dried hide glue?
You soak it until it's gummy with equal volume of water or more, then heat it carefully in a water bath and it will become runny glue.
O cara vai fazer uma fábrica de cola é
Do you sell any of it?
Not currently and not likely in the future. I have though, I sold most of the batch made in the video.
How much for 1 pound of hide glue
I don't have any for sale right now and probably won't again.
Fantastic video series. Very helpful info. Can you tell me what the yield was for that large skin?
what kind of hide u was useing
that was a cattle hide.
thank u i was just woundering
Don't make hide glue in August.