Hide Glue vs Synthetic - Which is better for String Instrument Repair?
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- Опубліковано 29 чер 2024
- Why do I use old fashioned glue, when there have been amazing developments in synthetic glues over the last 60 years?
Master Violin Maker and Restorer Olaf Grawert shares the history, making process and uses of hide glue as well as why he uses it over other modern synthetic glue products.
Be fully informed when you buy your next instrument. Get Olaf's free 7 essentials when buying an instrument report here: olafgrawertviolinstudio.com/7...
00:00 Introduction
01:00 How is hide glue made?
03:30 The history of hide glue
06:30 Why do I use hide glue?
12:08 Conclusion
More info on his beautiful Piere Lomont Master Violin: olafgrawertviolinstudio.com/s...
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Thank you for the explanation. It makes sense - the glue has been proven to hold for hundreds of years, but can be easily taken apart if there is a need to.
I recently restored a 200+ years old preston guitar that had been repaired using epoxy. Fortunately I knew that epoxy softens easily with heat, like hide glue does, and removed the repair with a heated chisel, no issues. I am glad titebond hide glue got a mention.
I always thought it was obvious why Violin makers used hide glue rather than modern adhesives. It's tough but it's not so strong that it would break the instrument when you split the joints apart for repairs. 👍👍
The only reason master violin makers used hot hide glue was because that's the only glue they had. If they had PVA, they probably would have used it. Fortunately, they used what they had and set the tradition for using hhg. If they used PVA, their instruments wouldn't have survived mostly intact after 400 years.
I once bumped into a glue expert who told me that araldite will soak up to 2% of it's weight with moisture. I was relating the tale of how I 'araldited' a badly carved peg box back onto a fiddle. this worked well until I took said fiddle to mid Spain for a couple of weeks, the epoxy disintegrated and the scroll fell off. Olaf knows what he is talking about, choose your glue wisely.
I just started a repair on a cheap student 1/4 size violin for a school (not the most enjoyable part of doing repairs, but someone has to do it, within limits though), & someone in the past had used epoxy (araldite) to glue the neck in, not too accurately, but heating it with a hair drier softens it too, so out it came, cleaned off all the old glue (with chisel) & glued it back with hide glue, now it is much closer to the normal FB projected height & I can finish making it playable, as best I can, with a limited time on such an instrument.
Hey Olaf,
Back in the days, when I still lived in Freiburg / south Germany, I became a very close friend with Benno Streu, who was an absolutely exceptionally talented repairman, mainly for old classical guitars and also luthes. As an example, Benno was the guy, who brought the "La Leona" of Antonio de Torres back to life, which is probably one of the most valuable classical guitars in existence today, worldwide. At that time, Benno was already in his 70s, and he was a retired engeneer. As I was very much interested in learning anything about building and repairing instruments, sometimes I called him 10 - 15 times a day to ask him, what I should do. He was very pleased to help, and I think he was happy, that there was a young guy, who was not only interested in getting a perfect (and, by the way, very cheap!) repair done by him, but also wanted to learn something - and he was happy to pass on some of his massive knowledge.
About glueing cracks, I know, that Benno quite often used Araldite instead of hide glue to repair cracks...!!! Probably he didn't do this on the "La Leona", but I remember, that he told me, that a LOT of these old instruments tops are actually dead, because they are completely covered with cleats, stopping these instrument tops from vibrating and behaving the way they used to do, when the instrument was built. By the use of Araldite (only for glueing cracks, that should never ever be opened again!!), Benno could remove all those cleats - and finally brought those formerly pretty much dead instruments back to life... Of course, there also had been a lot of criticism about his approach from other repairman, who said, that nothing but hide glue should be used for such repairs, mainly because of the reversibility...
On the other hand it is a simple fact, that a lot of old stringed instruments, that have many repaired (and enforced) cracks are more or less dead, because of all those cleats, having a massive impact on how a fine-made, resonant instrument top behaves...
I have no information, how these kind of repairs last, now, almost 20 years after Benno took most of his knowledge about lutherie, wood, varnish and also electronics (!) into his grave...But I think, that also a well-done epoxy-joint might last for many decades or even longer... Especially, as most instruments are not constantly exposed to massive uv-light... Also, some old (e.g. bakelite) materials are about 100 years old now, and they are also a resin-based synthetic material... And they are still keeping a strong bond.
By the way, there are some videos here on youtube, of Benno talking about the "La Leona", Chladny-modes of a guitar-top and other interesting things... It's in german, but with english undertitles. Simply search for "Benno Streu". It's worth watching!!
Oh, and by the way, I do NOT use epoxy for my repairs :) I probably use the exact same type of glue that you use, rabbit glue from Dictum.
Oh, by the way, I really like all your videos! And I like your t-shirts :)
It goes back a lot longer, as animal glue has been found in Neolithic archaeological digs, and was used in combination with animal tendons to hold arrowheads and flights (feathers) onto the wooden shaft. It was the all-purpose glue of that time, and was sometimes waterproofed with pitch or resin.
It is the original glue, long before it had any competition.
I agree with your thoughts for instrument making.
If it works well for that length of time it has a lot going for it….why change!
just a interesting fun fact, The Sydney Opera House sails were built of multiple precast concrete blocks held in compression with wire ropes and bonded block to block with an epoxy resin developed specifically for the job… that epoxy resin was then marketed for consumer use as Araldite. Secondly almost all “ fibreglass” boats etc are not made using epoxy as the binder but Polyester resin, which is very different
I have some questions for you that have been on my mind for a while.
1. Does the use of cleats for crack repair not affect the sound of the top? If not, then why is accurate thicknessing of the top so important?
2. Hide glue is perfectly capable of bridging voids and gaps. However, commonly a crack is repaired by putting glue into the crack, clamping the crack closed, and then gluing a cleat across it. Surely this reintroduces the tension into the top that caused the crack in the first place, and makes it more likely that a crack will appear parallel to the repaired one. Why is hide glue not used to fill the crack (possibly with a slither of spruce if it's a very wide gap), and no cleat? This would avoid adding tension and (unevenly distributed) weight to the top and should affect the tone the least, no?
3. Do cleats affect the optimal position of the soundpost?
Thanks in advance for your insights.
I have a fascination with how musical instruments are made and repaired by experts, which is why I'm a subscriber even though my main interest is guitars. Regarding hide glue, apart from the ability to reactivate the glue with heat and moisture, I've also read that there is better energy transference across hide glue joints than the modern aliphatic glues, and that also it shrinks slightly as it cures resulting in a tighter joint. Have you any experience of this? Another organic glue that can be reactivated is fish glue which is also used in high end guitar building, and I was wondering if you have ever used that in place of hot hide glue.
Finally an entire video to address the commenters who are always concerned as to why you're not using synthetic glue! 😅
The debate will continue on for eternity, I've seen many luthiers using titebond and swear by it being stronger, equally reversible or easier than hide glue, also the standard formulas makes it much more reliable than animal based adhesives
@@alonsoquesada1136 -- Yeah, Titebond Original is great stuff and doesn't seem to present any insurmountable problems when removing a plate or neck. Guitar- and mando-oriented luthiers swear by it -- and I'm pretty sure the big high-end guitar manufacturers like Martin, Collings, Taylor, and Gibson's Bozeman acoustic shop don't mess with hide glue anymore.
The fabric on old aeroplanes was treated with cellulose 'dope' which is plant based. The hide glue would have been used on the joints of the wooden structure.
Thank you...
I was wondering how they would make it waterproof
You should clarify that you are referring to TieBond Hide Glue, and not TiteBond I or II or III
LOVE the TSV flashback!! 😂 That was the video which first introduced me to your channel!
Having a glue that's strong but also easy to remove sounds like a good idea.
Hello Olaf from Boston!
Michael???
@@JamesCello James?
@@MichaelSuperbacker I didn’t know you were an Olaf fan too! What a welcome unexpected crossover!
@@JamesCello Ohh. I was confused. You know who I am 🤔. Thank you for the support my friend.
G'day Michael... From Brisbane...
Thanks for watching 😍
Great explanation! I knew a bit about the worth of hide glue from working with a cabinet maker/joiner. I know a lot more now. Very interesting.
the most enjoyable discussion on the topic of glue, ever!
I'd like to see you do a video on using hyde glue. I'd like to know the gear I need, the proper way to apply, and the pitfalls of using it. With your explanation and style of instruction, I'd feel much more confident using it for a build.
Although you mention it in passing, isn’t the fact that hideglue is a little bit weaker than the wood a key advantage? All other glues are stronger than wood and thus have to be dissolved before disassembly in other not to damage the instument.
I once turned down a repair because it had been re glued with modern glue. It is very difficult to remove the glue properly because it soaks into the wood fibres. I believe hide glue forms a chemical bond of some type which is also why the joint has to be very accurate. Any remain modern glue prevents a chemical bond from forming.
Correct - hhg does not penetrate the wood fibers whereas PVA does soak in and harden around the wood fibers. Also, hhg will bond to old hhg if all of it is not removed. I wouldn't have taken that job either.
WoW! Thank you very very much Olaf! Excellent Video 🎉👌
Thank you.
Hi Olaf, looks like you got a new saw?
Yeah, I agree 100% about using hide glue for all the reasons you describe.
Would you consider doing an episode descibing your varnish recipe, or is that too personal?
Great video!!!! I think hide glue is wonderful. I have built a number of furniture pieces with hide glue, never had any issues.
Thank you for the information.
BTW, IKEA is disposable household goods, I won't even call it furniture
I buy Powdered Hide Glue 440gm strength which is fine granules & so dissolves fairly quickly in the glue pot (from Australian Luthier Supplies). We used to call it Russian Hide Glue (it was a courser grade I used to get). No, Russians weren't boiled up for it. 😉
I've already mentioned before how a Cremona trained luthier uses 'white glue' (Titebond) for cracks, saying they are permanent. I told him repairers later on will not be thanking him at all (likely with many 'sweet' words).
Yes, PVA on the frog wedge & superglue for tips & also ebony is OK, if done correctly. ☺
Always good to see your videos Olaf.
I just noticed I was getting low & just ordered some more. It is actually described as course ground, but it is much finer than some I had used a couple of decades ago (but nothing like the 'beads' of glue available several decades ago, but that was a bit dark too). This is three of the listed descriptions from ALS.
- Coarse powder
- 440 GR (Gram strength)
- 20 Mesh
Hide glue doesn't penetrate the wood - it sticks to it. When the hide glue is removed, the wood is undamaged and in the same condition it was when it was first milled. PVA and cyanoacrylates only can work when they soak into the wood fibers and can never be removed completely. A PVA joint that is successfully separated leaves the wood with PVA soaked into the fibers that can never be completely removed. A PVA cracked joint must be sanded or scrapped and since PVA doesn't stick to PVA, the repaired joints won't be as strong the second time around because there is still PVA soaked into the wood.
Good show!
We use Tightbond for jig making etc. good for that sort of thing.
Get the MDS on that Tightbond "genuine" hide glue/plastic---yeah there is some hide glue in it but it is mostly these outrageous chemical ingredients which have deceiving chemical naming and require a bit of chasing down research patience, and just see what the heck is in there for yourself then-----well----what the heck?? Genuine ? geeze wiz. I can't believe it! and it is touted to be so. LOL!
R.Blais. Hampshire Piano.
What do you think of fish glue?
It's similar in its reversibility but is not as strong as hhg. Setup time is longer.
Small fact fix. Boats are mostly made polyester reson or vinylester resin. Epoxy is used to make wery light or really expensive carbonfibre boats. On woodenboat indistries formaldehyde glue is also used for long time and is proved to be durable. But we dont have 500 years experience yet.
Epoxy is used on fiberglass sheathed wooden hulls.
@@emptywig that is coating, not gluing.
Completely agree. Any thoughts on fish glue?
I've seen crack repairs done with fish glue - I'm assuming it has similar properties to hide glue
As a guitar builder we have no issues using quality PVA/titebond to hold necks to the body that are under constant tension. That said the oldest we have is from what the 50s. Id like to hope some of my instruments will be kicking around in one piece well into the future 🤣
One day ill start my violin build and I think ill follow your recommendations here though!
What about Weldbond? It is water soluble, dries clear, and vegan. Any experiences?
Do you use the Kremer stuff? I'm making my first violin and so far so good with that glue. Very happy with it. Hopefully it ends up being a good addition to team Brisbane when I finish it.
A couple of months ago I was watching a UA-cam video, where an American luthier from the South USA ( I don't remember which state Georgia, Louisiana, or Alabama? ) was arguing that he uses modern glues, because of the humid climate where he lives. I remember thinking " But Olaf lives in Queensland and uses hide glue and swears by it". I did not find this American luthier's arguments convincing, but I'm a layperson who only watches UA-cam content on violin and related topics.
may I ask can the glue holds a broken string together, can I glue it on a broken string together ?
what i'd like to know is how you approach using hide glue on an instrument like a cello or double bass with enormous glueing surfaces, how do you keep it in the working range long enough? i know of several guitar makers who use hide glue but still use titebond PVA glue (titebond original only because it's reversible, 2 and 3 are not reversible) for some joints where they consider the working time of hide glue too short
I'm not sure but I've seen videos of makers doing it bit by bit. You can clamp a section and use a knife or something to get the glue in the small opening and just keep clamping bit by bit as you go.
Hope you will talk about the emergency surgery on Eddy's violin😊
Hi from Costa Rica.
Absolutely agree. The amazing repairer of double basses in NY, US, Chuck Traeger also talks very badly of using white glue instead of hide.
Mr Traeger was also famous for saying that no damage on a double bass could not be repaired. Until he encountered a double bass made out of plywood (layers of wood with PVA glue) that came apart after a flood, and he did called out defeat on that one, as the PVA gets ingrained everywhere and a least to him, there was no way to repair it.
OMG that cricket is so annoying. Very interesting video anyway 👍
I do not hear you about titebondglue regular ,or white timber-glue
What are your thoughts on synthetic bow hair?
Nemanja Radulovic uses french synthetic hair and loves it... I got some Canadian synthetic hair that I as well as my client hates...
Technology is always getting better, so there's a good chance that synthetic hair can be good enough.
I just haven't tried enough different brands.
Olaf have you seen the latest violin restoration video from Masters Of Craft? You made a reaction video of the last restoration they did. By the looks of it the Luthier who did the repairs in this new video did a much better job.
The old (first) video was like one of those fake restorations, made by content farms ( that produce a large amount of low-quality videos).
Definitely, The big issue was in the first video the person doing the restoration was most likely guitar tech. They had some knowledge on instrument repair but not really with violins which is why the repairs were a bit questionable...
Any plant based glues which can be used for the vegans???
I tend to agree that you should use the most appropriate glue for the job and climate. Since most of the instruments I work on (guitars/ukes/wooden drums) are used on boats in humid tropical environments hyde glue is only used on things that are temporary since in those environments hyde glue doesn't hold very well or perhaps better stated would be consistently well. Original TiteBond holds better and is still easily removed with a rag or brush soaked in hot water and TiteBond2 while a bit stronger can still be removed with a rag/brush dipped in hot water while White PVA is more of a hobby glue and I agree should be mostly avoided. Titebond3 is water proof and for things you really don't intend to ever take apart. The major issue most have with PVA glues is poor fitting joints and using the glue to fill gaps which is also a problem with hyde glue. Some peoples definition of a glue film is apparently way off kilter as you hear them express fear about clamping and squeezing all the glue out. The other thing I hear is put salt on your joints to keep your parts with too much glue slathered on them from sliding about as if putting a highly corrosive element in your glue joint along with increasing the thickness of the glue joint might be a good thing to do instead of just using a couple of tiny wire brad nails with the heads clipped off as locating pins if your having a problem so you can maintain a nice tight joint free of contaminants.
I'm not sure how well hyde glue would hold up if used to laminate a boats hull together since it will be most often sitting out in the sun while floating on the water therefore being exposed to the two elements used to remove hyde glue. What would happen to an instrument held together with hyde glue after being left outside in the sun and rain for even a few days? It would likely start to come apart like the flood base/cello.
Super Glue does have one major benefit in certain repairs as unlike many other glues it will stick to itself and doesn't need to be removed except for in the most extreme circumstances.
On a multi-million dollar museum piece for historical value use the closest adhesive and finish to the original while on anything less use what fits the instrument and particular repair be it hyde glue or something else. I can vouch for original Titebond projects made by my father still holding strong today around 70 years later.
Ikea and similar are made mostly with urea and isocyanate glues so not really indicative of how a glue such as TiteBond holds up.
Is hyde glue the right answer for some instruments and the answer is of course however its not the best choice for everything all the time. Good workmanship is the more critical element as is having a good understanding of what your working with and why a certain adhesive should or shouldn't be used along with the proper technique required when using them. I'm certain that the old masters if they were alive today would have a variety of modern adhesives in their shops as they were the technological leaders and innovators of their time breaking boundaries and striving to develop better ways. They didn't just live in the past and continue with the same old all the time just because it was always done that way however they did put in the time and effort to prove new things out.
Yes I still do have a container of hyde glue flakes that I use for special projects. My father (completed his violin makers apprenticeship in Italy in 1918) bought a large contained of it after he came back from the War in the Pacific and we still haven't used it all yet. I'm an equal opportunity gluer. ;>
Best!
Its HIDE glue. Hope this comment isnt too long!
HIDE glue is NEVER the answer.
@@Wobbz9413 You seem to be split on this.
Honest answer though is that Hyde Glue is sometimes the answer.
You also have to be very careful about who's Hyde Glue you use as some manufacturers are more inconsistent than others. There will always be some variation since it is a natural product so if the manufacturer doesn't screen the animals it uses to make their glue and hold to a certain standard of quality their glue will vary more than others.
Best!
Incorrect about the CA. Kodak invented it for splicing negatives. I wonder why everybody thinks it was invented for wounds? As a scale r/c scratch builder of almost 40 years i can tell u that yes CA works good to stop stuck pig style bleed out but it will ALWAYS fester and always require that u open it back up so it can heal. Ive CA'd over 40 wounds 😂 p.s. its the best when u cut your lips licking a knife😅😭😂
Titebond doesn’t have hideglue in it
Prior to PVA (just before WWI) woodworking was done with hide glue. It is the glue of choice for wood antique restoration, as it is strong enough, long lasting and as Olaf said reversible. A key principle of antique conservation is that work done should be reversible. For everyday woodworking and items of no great value PVA is fine, but that is about it. Using PVA glue on paper conservation is also always a bad idea. Most PVA glues are acidic and damaging in the long run - particularly on paper. There are pH neutral PVA glues, but the better choice for high end paper restorations in wheat paste glue. EVAs are hot melt glues. Some people use them, as they are reversible under heat, but I think hide glue is still better. As Olaf described for PVA glue, removing EVA glues is still difficult and risks damaging the piece it is used on more so than hide glue. For glues that soften under heat, a heated spatula can work well. Similar to the approach of fixing cracks with wood cleats and hide glue that Olaf uses, paper tears are often repaired with Japanese paper backing (cleat-like) and wheat starch glue.
Thanks for the vegan call out! Cut every animal product possible out of my life but even I can admit there is no second to hide glue. Listen to Olaf! There is no excuse for not using hide glue on instruments
Vegan Horror Story...😆
I don’t use glues made from animals. Sorry this isn’t the 1600’s.
We also use animals in leather shoes, jelly, most desserts, food, sand we walk on is made from dead animals, the fuel that fuels cars and jets and the latest rocket engines is made from dead animals... most plastics are... We're literally surrounded by it...
All beautiful antique furniture...
Synthetic glues using petrochemicals...
We really do live in the Stone Age using lots of animal parts...
@@AskOlaftheViolinmaker We're not raising and slaughtering animals to make sand and oil though.