Destiny and Booksmarts have a good faith debate about their opinions on the DemonMama vs Hanz debate and eventually come to an agreement. Follow Booksmarts ►UA-cam - ua-cam.com/users/BookSmartsvideos ►TWITCH - www.twitch.tv/booksmarts
I think Booksmarts is giving Demon Mama too much credit. I think it's clear to anyone who has ears that Demon Mama would have never "agreed" with Hanz. Yes, they both agree it's best if people are educated, but Demon Mama cares way too much about personal freedom to have any information for it, no matter what way someone could be educated. The best she could give was "Maybe if you make learning fun and give free food". And if that doesn't work, let the kids stay ignorant. Yes, homeschool, tutoring, and other forms of education would be very beneficial to a child, but no child would choose those over playing Fortnite either. Either the parents would have to force their kids to get some kind of education (which imo, most wouldn't) or the kid would most likely never become educated. To me, Demon Mama argument is like saying "Yes, I want to stop climate change, but the solution isn't to make laws to get corporations to stop polluting. We should incentivize them to stop polluting by just making it more profitable not to (without giving any realistic ways to do so).
Mobster:"Nice store you got here, would be a shame if something happened to it" Booksmarts:"Ah that nice mobster is concerned about the well being of that store."
To be fair, the mobster didn't express concern, just stated his opinion -concerning- *_on_* a hypothetical event. edit: appearantly it is not obvious, this is piling on the original comment and making fun of BS sarcastically, as opposed to genuinely defending him
@@MaskOfCinder Content warning: dead frog at Level 2, linguistic nerd-out on Level 3. Proceed at your own risk. PS before wall of text so you at least read this: I have already spent more time on this than i would be proud of. For any further discussion you would have to find someone even more crazy than me, who is willing to go deeeeep into the trenches, or a spiritual leader, hooker, or lawyer; whom you can pay to listen to you. Or you can always go to r/destiny. Level 0: you're a genius and you are using 'literally' to mean 'not literally', and i'm missing the joke. good one, and sorry. Level 1: you are baiting and i am falling for it. Level 2: you missed the joke and now i'm going to kill the frog for you: The high-level comment is a joke about BS not getting the implication. My reply is about the fact that even the understanding outlied in the comment (that of expressing concern) relies on more than syntax. My comment makes fun of BS, parodying his understanding. Of course the mobster is not hypothesizing, nor is he concerned, he is in fact threatening. Level 3: you got the joke but think it is incorrect. You are just _wrong._ Syntactically (meaning based only on the meaning of the words, out of context), The entire sentece has nothing to do with the speaker, or their reality. It is implied that the speaker is expressing his own opinions/concerns in context, but it is not there in the words. If you look only at the words (as BS said he does/did), it is entirely hypothetical ("would" explicitly refers to a hypothetical, alternative reality in which something happened to it), and entirely stated as objective fact (no "i think", "in my opinion", i would find it", just "it would be")
I found the disconnect. DM mentions being a kid in the conversation so Booksmarts thinks she's actually a kid, thus she has no accountability in the conversation.
Only explanation I can find for "So demonmama was refusing to engage with anything hanz said, and just kept leading him with stupid stories, this is hanz's fault for not guiding her back".
August should have inserted clips from the original debate in this, there are so many things that Book says from his notes that do not line up with what was actually said. Destiny catches him on two or three of these but there is so much more
There are a million other things booksmarts got wrong that destiny didn’t catch. There are so many thing’s, there’s like an infinite amount of things, it’s wild u guys, there is so much more things books got wrong it’s crazy An iNcOmPrEHeNsiBLe AmOuNt oF tHiNgS
I think in attempt to be hyper specific with the words and argument said in the debate, he stopped considering implications and "loaded" words that are communicated without ever being said explicitly, it's mostly implied based on context
I was so triggered by her "I can't remember a single time me or my siblings didnt want to go to school." I don't believe that one bit, and on the very rare possibility that it's true....its an exception not ordinary. If you give kids the choice...they aren't going to pick school regularly. She's like have you ever been around a three year old? Umm have you? (idk why they were talking about 3 year olds cause that seems young for school but ya know). Kids don't even like getting up in the morning. If you ask a kid you just woke up if they want to go to school... they will want to go back to sleep.
20:20 "I don't remember a single time in my or my siblings child hood where ANYONE didn't want to go to school." - sounds like she's referring to all children including her siblings. Clearly. Also says "MOST" children will go to school if told to cause they enjoy it.
Yeah I agree. She started talking about how children like learning. I mean, I'm sure they do if it's engaging and if it's a topic they're interested in. They could be interested in learning something like playing a video game, or learning about doing any other non-curricular activity. But that doesn't mean children will enjoy going to school or learning about things like maths or history. In my experiance, children just don't like going to school. Even that smart ones often dislike school. DM's arguement doesn't make any sense.
In Booksmarts quest to be 'specific' he's lost entire points being made by each debater. Its like he had Google translate the conversation and read it over and over again.
His quest isn't to be specific, he's just doing what religious people do when they've already married themselves to a conclusion and are working backwards to justify it.
@@wyattoutlaw2370 He's not being bad faith, he just did a lot of over compensatory mental gymnastics to frame DMM's arguments in the best possible light (Because he's biased towards hating her), which is a silly thing to do. If you watch the whole video he says all this and agree with destiny.
I’m only 15 minutes into this video but holy shit, I like booksmarts but he can’t seriously be saying that school and education are not basically synonyms in relation to the conversation at hand. This is mind boggling
When talking specifically about mandates yeah. Although it only matters cause DM used it to try and weasel her way out of bad points cause honestly they started off talking about education systems. But DemonMama could've came off looking way better here if she had any skill at all and made Hanz look like he's defending forcing homeschooled kids to go to school.
@@wisetrollman honestly I saw a lot of booksmart's chat being honest and saying Booksmart's was completely off here, but I wonder why his chat has such reasonable people at all?
@@Skippymabob yeah but we all know what is meant by “school” like if you meet someone that’s homeschooled and ask “hey where did you go to school?” They wouldn’t say “oh I didn’t go to school” They’d say “oh I was homeschooled” because we all as a society know that they’re essentially the same thing, the only real difference is the location Or I bet if you asked a homeschooled person “hey what was your favorite subject in school?” They wouldn’t say “oh I was actually homeschooled”
I know dgg mostly likes him but I always found him obnoxious. I don't get the point of hyperfocusing on rhetoric so much that the things being said lose all meaning. When you're talking with people you have to read between the lines and understand what someone is implying because no one talks 100% directly and honestly all the time. To quote a good comment above Mobster:"Nice store you got here, would be a shame if something happened to it" Booksmarts:"Ah that nice mobster is concerned about the well being of that store."
First time I've seen this dude. I don't want to watch him again. He seems stupid as fuck... How can he read Hans argument so wrong? Hans wanted kids educated so they can contribute to society etc. But Booksmarts just goes on about that Hans just wanted them in school and not educated? Errr What?
He’s stated a lot he considers her bad faith to the point where she’s on the “do not engage” list. Wouldn’t be surprised if he did it anyways if there was enough viewer interest tho tbh.
Truee. Yo really understand why ppl call her bad faith it's best to debate her yourself. But she might act friendly towards him cos he often defends her
“I guess I was being ultra-charitable”, aka I was trying to pull a hot-take drop of water out of a stone under the guise of being charitable. This isn’t the first time he’s used that “strategy”. His line by line shit is funny, and rarely, very informative.
Why isn’t DM held accountable in Book’s eyes for not “furthering the conversational potential” by clarifying the school vs education if he really thinks that is a point in this conversation.
From day 1, booksmarts put DM on the list of “people so bad-faith that I will never interact with them,” like he has an actual list and she’s on it. In other words, DM never gets credit. Book only critiques people worthy of his attention. DM gets excluded from critiques, not because she’s beyond critique, but because Book literally has banned her for life , from ever getting any kind of guidance. He focused on Hanz and Destiny because he wants them to improve while DM is a totally lost cause in Books’ eyes
He knows it's a lost cause to consider holding some people to account, so he just tunnel visions on "how could a reasonable person have had a more constructive conversation with a Class A retard who is trying to literally destroy the English language in the process of having a conversation?" It's kinda fucking stupid.
@@Sprite_525 He did give DM pointers explicitly in his breakdown. It's not really a "banned for life" list if we're looking at a time where the person is being not only talked about, but given advice in the video. If she watches it to get the advice is another question which I don't think matters.
We're already at the stage where we watch point-by-point commentaries of debates between fecking DemonMama and Hanz, which then evolve into separate pointed debates about the debates themselves. We're already too deep.
@@naschylobo Everything you say is true - there isn't a blade of grass in sight from where I'm standing - and yet I would watch a point-by-point breakdown of this debate by someone else. Inject it into my veins, even.
Booksmarts' stance is really that DemonMama derailed so hard, that hans had the onus to keep her on track? Like she's a child that needs to be controlled
True. It was infuriating how this clown claimed to be specific yet seemed to have completely selective memory and then abused destiny‘s good faith who could not remember the debate in detail. 😩
@@DaveChappeleIsGod never said he did not (and I liked that) but for too long they were arguing about half truths about the debates content stated by book. The result was a waste of time for any listener expecting good faith from both participants of the discussion to gain any further insight on the debate between dm and hanz
@@dylankempthorne No that was a pivot late in the game . he clearly said it was bad that hanz never clarified it to begin with again steering the discussion away from any salient point being discussed
No in this case, going to the doctor would mean literally tracking your doctor down wherever they are, whether it’s the office, the restaurant they’re at with their partner, their bedside in the middle of the night
Booksmarts gives the game away at 19:48 where he claims that even if she chooses to be "slimy or whatever" (i.e. bad faith) Hanz is still the bigger obstacle in the conversation, which is absurd.
Anyone who thinks that Hanz didn't mean "education" in general when he was saying "school" is an idiot. He clearly states the reasons he wants there to be mandates is for the population to be educated. The vehicle for education doesn't matter. No one is arguing that people should be forced into a specific building. This is a child's take.
But how do you know he was referring to 'DemonMama' when he was saying 'you'? Idk im just listening to their words, he could be referring to any You at that point, we dont know!
I don't agree. When you talk about home schooling its specifically the reason why people want school (with standardized subjects and everything) to be mandated. From an EU POV the school mandate allows everyone to have the same general knowledge about basic stuff. We don't want the people homeschooling their children to teach them about flat earth for example.
Books misheard some things and was trying to be as generous as possible to correct for he bias against DM. This led to him thinking Hanz didnt perform well because he didnt pin her down on what booksmarts perceived to be a difference in interpertation of school/education.
"He never says he wants them to get educated." Bullshit. At the very beginning he lays out why he thinks mandates are important. 1. Education is critical for children. 2. An educated individual is critical for society as a whole.
Absolutely incredible. Even with a concerted effort to read her as acting in good faith she still comes across as a horrible, slimy, dishonest interlocutor.
This is probably the most dishonest I have ever seen Booksmarts be, you might have been a little aggressive but DM was impossible to have a real convo with here. Ultimate bad faith DM
@@sevenakuma6490 Arguing for something, being proven wrong, then publicly admitting you were wrong with reasons why is bad faith? I swear, people don’t even know the meaning of bad faith anymore. This is like textbook good faith lol.
Dear Booksmart, you silly goose, demonmama says "I don't think the solution is mandatory schooling." Clearly talking about the process of learning (see schooling for more details) not just talking about the building known as school. Lmao. If you are going to by hyper specific about words you should take better notes. ;p
I really like the way you worded that criticism! It’s always good to be kind with it. I think BookSmarts has it cut out for him to not miss the forest for the trees when trying to get this technical with his analysis, it may be the case that a slightly more gut-feeling based approach would be more accurate, but that would open the door a bit more for bias to shift the interpretation. It’s pretty tricky. I was frustrated with him at the start, but by the end I got the sense that he’s making an honest effort. I hope he sticks around
I kind of hate DM and find her fairly annoying, but I also don't think the solution is mandatory schooling. And I don't agree at all that schooling (as it exists now, or even more specifically, when I was enrolled) in the US is even about the process of learning.
At 20:00 Book is quite literally saying that, even though DM is contributing nothing to the conversation and is being slimy, in his own words, it's Hanz who is in the wrong for not contributing enough to the convo even though he was trying. Absolute lunatic, first time I've seen him talk and I can't even
Remember he was still under the impression that DemonMama was sort of good faith here. Once you take the concession at the end into account his take from the debate (Hanz won but he did have some rhetorical faults) is much more reasonable
@@rahulgordon2508 how can you concede that someone is using slimy tactics to avoid defending her own position while at the same time believing that person is arguing in good faith?
@@codybarlik4524 But he doesn't think she was arguing in bad faith anymore though. He just overcorrected for bias and that lead him to stupidly mischaracterise her as good faith initially. It wasn't some evil scheme, he was just incorrect. There's nothing wrong with that especially if he admits he was wrong on steam.
Destiny is such an inspiration! He uses his platform to help people with special needs get their voice heard, and teaches them how to understand a conversation.
I don’t understand “school” already isn’t mandatory if getting a tutor or home schooling doesn’t count as going to school so why would she thinks she’s debating about going to “school” not just getting a education
@@berserker8884 this was one of the better ones where you can actually laugh at the blaring stupidity, other ones are usually just mind numbingly moronic
"We should build more grocery stores in under privileged communities". Well obviously this person just wants to build grocery stores because he thinks that community really likes going to grocery stores. Not to buy food or anything, just to go into the building. I swear so many people talk about how smart Booksmarts is but this was like one of the dumbest things I've ever had to sit through in a while. I'm glad Destiny got to make him see how insane he was being here. Everyone in the multiverse was on the same page when Hanz and Demon Mamma were talking about school as a means of obtaining an education and that's what the mandate concerned, not mandating kids going into the building just to go into the building. Holy hell how many brain illnesses did Booksmarts inject into himself for viewing that video? Did he just forget how humans and language function?
That may seem obvious to you but that may be the general understanding but the generality shouldn't be imposed on the individual instances right? Like every response or opposition she gave was in regards to opposing a mandate to going to school, especially the yummy food part, the yummy food part was an incentive to want kids to go to school not to build a mandate.
Booksmarts is standing in the middle of a forest screaming about how he can't be in a forest because he's surrounded by oak trees. EDIT: but he conceded so its okay
Props to Booksmarts for retracting at the end and realising he was wrong in a good faith manner, even mentioning he overcompensates because he knows he doesn’t like DM.
love booksmarts, still love booksmarts, but him getting mad at dggers for hyperfocusing on certain things and having dumb arguments is kinda funny after his claiming that 'school and education aren't synonymous in this conversation'
Yea because Hanz literally says the reason he thinks school should be mandated is because it is very important to have an educated citizenry that can read and write. This was so stupid from Booksmarts I couldn't tell if he was being bad faith or was just demon mama in a mask lol
A wife asks her husband, a programmer, “Could you please go shopping for me and buy one carton of milk, and if they have eggs, get 6?” A short time later the husband comes back with 6 cartons of milk and his wife asks, “Why did you buy 6 cartons of milk?” He replies, “They had eggs.” Booksmarts is the programmer...
Credit to Booksmarts for publicly reversing his position in real time after defending it repeatedly. That can be hard to do and I admire Booksmarts for being that committed to the truth.
I think booksmarts just has established himself as an authority on these kind of talks and he just wields the status to baselessly pretend that the convo goes a way that it just doesn't. He gaslights anyone who listens to him
This is way to harsh on bookfucker. He admitted he was wrong in this very convo. He did mess up, but he owned up to it publicly which is the really good part
@@Naalders if he's non-native English speaker I could maybe see this as a mistake. But in the Vernacular 'school' == 'education' in 99.9% of all conversation.
Booksmarts is a good guy. He gets too much into rhetoric and it cheapens the analysis he does but overall I don't think he has bad intentions and he's genuinely trying to not be overly aggressive and combative like a lot of breadtubers/debatebros are.
His intentions might be good, but that doesn't change the fact that he gets passive aggressive at times instead of being direct because of exactly those intentions, and also doesn't help that he ends up analyzing conversations in a very non-human way without acknowledging implications in speech. Especially in this dialogue he seems to have gone a little too far to the other extreme.
You can't really call what booksmarts was talking about rhetoric or analysis, the whole point about education vs school is stupid and even if there was a distinction it wouldn't lead to any breakthroughs. This just seems bad faith to me
I definitely don't think that Booksmarts is bad faith, but it's triggering me that he specifically states that DM would be against ALL mandates, and then he nitpicks Hanz for not differentiating Education vs. School. Hanz is arguing for a mandate which you could uncharitably say is NOT for education but for school, but we KNOW for CERTAIN that DM even charitably is against ANY mandate. This is a double standard, and I'm not sure why he holds it.
@@sluxi I also don't understand how this guy makes claims that hanz is responsible for keeping the convo going and the meaning of school when he is a smart guy so the only conclusion I can get is that he's bad faith
Crazy that booksmarts says he’s going exactly by what they say but he attributes so much extra context to DM saying “make school enticing” like 2 minutes earlier
I feel like everytime destiny speaks with booksmarts he needs to just respond literally to everything What's up? "Uh the sky.... the roof...space?" How's it going? "In regards to what? Like am I going somewhere?" Holy shit "Who blessed it?" I just feel that he either does this because he can't read conversation outside of surface level, is doing it to hold ground and just do it in borderline bad faith even tho he knows what they ment, perhaps social awkward or on the spectrum. I dont have hate towards him just its annoying.
I don't think Booksmarts is bad faith. He just doesn't understand human communication beyond the strict definition of the words they use. ...which is super weird considering he seems to kind of hold himself out as a communication coach of sorts........
@@DrStealthbug I think he has important insights, buy he assumes, for rhetorics sake, ultimate good faith sometimes when it's absolutely underserved. I think that serves a purpose, but he needs to be more clear about the fact that he understands that some of these statements are in bad faith or are intellectually dishonest, but that he thinks you should engage with them in good faith anyways for the ultimate goal of supremely ideal optics. Demon mama was absolutely pearl clutching, and I think book gets this on some level, but his rhetorical tactic is to treat all arguments as if they're in good faith. I think there is definitely something good that can come of that strategy, but it comes off as literally autistic or braindead, kinda both.
I think Booksmarts is just too dead set on the physical conversation and not the metaphysical. He’s been trained to look through logs and find every last word said, which is a good thing. Unfortunately though, when those words are removed from voices, he loses sight of the bigger picture, all the implications and tone. It’s the same reason why sarcasm is so hard to express through text; that human element to it is necessary.
@@StarShade0 yea its seems he looks so hard at logs that he doesn't have the tone and attitude behind some of the words and phrases almost like he reads them monotoned
@@StarShade0 I think everyone is missing the point of his critique. "Go to school" wasn't defined and so Demonmama was able to squirm and weasel out of anything hard, and the conversation was so bad. Destiny can say that Demonmama wasnt able to defend her argument, but she has plausible deniability that Hanz is talking about SCHOOL, not education.
It seems like booksmarts was so incredibly accomadating to DM meanwhile he held Hans to the highest standard. He literally blamed Hans for letting DM go off topic rather than holding DM responsible for going off topic and derailing the conversation. Also I'm not sure what Booksmarts meant when he was saying school for the first 40ish minutes. A mandatory institution to educate children is more or less school, regardless of whether or not its relies on tutors instead of educated teachers or is run like a spec-ed operation. Infact the majority of schools have a special education program, making it even more baffling when he says special education is not school. We even call it "homeschooling" when kids are taught by their parents or a hired tutor, so trying to draw a distinction between education and school in general is poorly thought out.
Didnt mean hed deny it or anything, im glad he recognizes it. Just find it kinda weird, i always found him to usually be the most reasonable one in the conversation and this was just kinda... idk baffling to me
This dude has a huge Microsoft paint dialogue of the conversation and he's still way off base. Destiny's going off memory and in my opinion doing a much better job of remembering how it actually happened. Just ridiculous.
You guys realize this is all Booksmarts has ever done, right? It's a super easy racket requiring zero actual expertise. He's not stupid, he's weasel-wording and trying to pass it off as analysis. When that fails, he "concedes" and gets to salvage the engagement by making the audience think "at least he's honest enough to admit that he's wrong." If you buy this act you're suckers.
God, he's even more insufferable to me than Vaush or DM. I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees past the "nice guy, good-faith, arbiter of truth" shtick. My question is, why does Destiny give him the time of day? He has to have picked up on Booksmart's bullshit after this debate, right?
Booksmarts: Do you have an example of this happening? Destiny: (*gives example of this happening*) Booksmarts: So you don't really have any examples of this happening. ** Booksmarts: So why do you think this? Destiny: (*takes more than a second to respond*) Booksmarts: *smugly smirks at the camera* . Booksmarts is the polar opposite to DemonMama tactics. Calmly speaking slowly while just not listening to whose opposite them.
Didn't Book change his position when they went through the shitshow together? He even asked for tips on how he could prevent this from happening in the future.
@@idontgetthejoke4813 It will probably give him more perspective when critiquing people that are debating. It is easy to nitpick and say how you feel the debate should have gone, but it is another to navigate thru it in an actual debate.
for having a line-by-line breakdown of the conversation and tripling down on that "education" was not explicitly brought up, seems weird that someone would miss the phrase "education system" 5 minutes into the conversation.
The way Booksmarts was arguing about the semantics of which term to use and the meaning of the words used reminded me so much of the Syntax Grammar nonsense I’ve heard from SovCits before. The kind of word semantics like someone saying, “If you want to challenge jurisdiction, then file a motion with the court” only to be responded to with, “How would I motion with the court? The building can’t move like I can!”
Hanz specifically mentions "education system" multiple times at the start but NOOOOO let's pretend everything was specifically 'schools' nice ol' good faith booksharts.
@Scott Holcomb So why doesn’t every bad faith person, like Demonmamma, just admit they’re wrong all the time? Isn’t that the opposite of bad faith behavior? I don’t think you’re using bad faith in the traditional way
This one really caught me off guard I like these videos with him usually because he tends to center destiny and make him a lil better but this one was off the rails you would think homey was smashing demon mama by how generous he was
I had a lot of respect for booksmarts before this but it's clear how he is missing almost every point. It feels like he cannot pickup on basically any inferences lol
i don't think you need to lose respect for someone who has an opposing view on a nuanced matter. I disagree with Booksmarts but I think it provides a good discussion to constantly challenge your beliefs. Bit of a stretch to just start disliking him.
I do appreciate Books doing the rhetoric teaching tour on Twitch. It really has great potential if any of it sticks and him testing Stephen's thinking (and patience) is a really good mental excercise for Stephen as well. I'm certain it's making him a more formidable speaker, debater and analyst of discussions. He's biggest weakness is getting agitated often for good reason but too soon and he misses what went wrong. A lot of people don't have the chops to get even started with this.
@@jondeweyart getting an education in academia requires you to go to school, whether that’s homeschool, catholic school, online school, they’re all schools. Name 3 ways you can get an education in academia without going to school, I’d like to see you fuckin try.
@@jondeweyart when someone says the word education, the next word that should pop into your head should be school. If it’s not you’re on god damn heroin
@@mandoz353 specifically, there are mentorships, residency programs, apprenticeships, tutoring programs. These are all ways for someone to get an education without necessarily going to school. Book correctly states that there is a distinction between ‘going to school’ and ‘getting an education’, but it gets lost in the hanz/dm discussion because neither of them clearly state what they mean and the conversation completely fizzles out
Idk who this dude is but he seems to be more than slightly confused. I detest the school therapist act. He reminds me of the Bob's Burgers councilor character.
Hilarious how booksmarts tries so fucking hard to assert that their disagreement was between education and schooling (the building). Especially since Hanz literally says in his opening statement "mandating education". Essay writer btw.
100% agree, booksmarts just gets bogged down in his own notes, if it's not there then it's not in the debate, many times he's missed words or misinterpreted and went off on chat for correcting him until he finally rewatches it and agrees he was wrong, never learning.
I agree with Destiny about the "school" thing. Hanz was using "school" in place of "education." Like we need to school all chidren in some way and we need mandates to be able to achieve that goal.
yeah, tbh if someone is talking about "going to school" i think he means "going to school", not "go to another room and get home schooled" but 100% dmm in the end realized her hard anti government force stance meant letting kids with uncaring parents just roblox themselves, and that's why she fought to stop the conversation
Such a surreal talk. What this conversation does very well is to demonstrate that you cannot judge how well a given debate “progressed” if you do not understand the argument.
24:05 "Somebody who was homeschooled wouldn't say they went to school they would say they were homeschooled" I'm literally shaking right now, like I can't even.
14:30 It's so weird, but I really do agree that DemonMama clearly had this idea in her head that Hanz just wanted to mandate school, and not just a broader standard of education. That's why she keeps going on these tangents about antifa supersoldier children who are terrified of school, like she wants Hanz to "bite the bullet" and "admit" that they don't have to go to school and can do homeschooling or professional tutoring instead. She thinks that's the alternative she's arguing for. TLDR Booksmarts is right that Hanz should have built that bridge, but honestly the onus for that miscommunication is on DM because she ought to know it's uncommon, as she's making the affirmative argument for change here. I also got the impression she thinks the mandate is basically kidnapping children and forcing them into school, which is its own can of worms. The mandate exists so that purposefully allowing a child never to get an education can be legislated as child abuse, which I think even DM would agree it is.
Given that she said that she would be against a school mandate even if school was absolutely perfect in every way imaginable that seems like a useless point to make.
@@coke2679 But that's not his position. His position is we should mandate education, which includes these "gotchas" DM was trying to get. If he had seen the misunderstanding, this would've been a free rebuttal for him.
@@himethisisme If she says she's against mandating school even if it's perfect, that implies she's against mandating any education at all. It implies the issue is not with school being imperfect. If school is perfect, no alternatives need to be provided.
@@coke2679 Right, but she's trying to say (perhaps in purposeful bad faith) that Hanz wants to force children into schools. Even though the "schools" part has nothing to do with her position, she's trying for an optical win by getting Hanz to admit to wanting to force kids into school busses. The trouble is, the "schools" bit has nothing to do with Hanz's position either, so he could've had a layup by taking a step back and refocusing.
Isn't hanz arguing for the mandate that already exists? Under that mandate, you can already be homeschooled or tutored instead. So if DM says she is against the mandate, then of course Hanz wouldn't think she means kids should be allowed to do something they are already allowed to do
Of all the disagreements I've seen these two have, I've never been so baffled by booksmart's argument lol. I dont know what he's on in this conversation
I'm glad he changed his opinion at the end but man this one was rough to sit through. For someone whose whole career is based around analyzing debates this was a major yikes moment.....
I was watching out of horror, I usually don't comment on videos, nor frequent destiny's content too often, but I saw the debate they were talking about and then this.....I've never seen someone who couldn't follow a simple conversation to this extent. Eye opening Demon Mama clearly states that she is for free expression / freedom, etc and against mandates, she even gives a big emphasis on this with a very clearly worded statement describing such. She is OK with voluntary school or voluntary education. The debate was to mandate or not to mandate (a legit debate). No where in the conversation did the conflict arise between DM and Han on the distinction with school or education within any of their talking points. If it never came up, then the distinction wasn't the problem. Especially when an argument for voluntarism was based on lunches. How someone could assign victory / defeat over a conflict which never existed in the convo amazes me. Perhaps this was a deep big brain performative example to highlight our flawed system.
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Destiny and Booksmarts have a good faith debate about their opinions on the DemonMama vs Hanz debate and eventually come to an agreement.
Follow Booksmarts ►UA-cam - ua-cam.com/users/BookSmartsvideos ►TWITCH - www.twitch.tv/booksmarts
Wait, is Destiny is somewhere else, or is he changing his setup? 😶
My god, Booksmarts needs to learn to deal in Vernacular language. In American English 'school' is almost synonymous with 'education'
I’m pretty sure Hans said the goal was to get kids educated so that they can function in society.
Think the agreement was that bookends misunderstood the conversation completely in his empathy.
I think Booksmarts is giving Demon Mama too much credit. I think it's clear to anyone who has ears that Demon Mama would have never "agreed" with Hanz. Yes, they both agree it's best if people are educated, but Demon Mama cares way too much about personal freedom to have any information for it, no matter what way someone could be educated. The best she could give was "Maybe if you make learning fun and give free food". And if that doesn't work, let the kids stay ignorant. Yes, homeschool, tutoring, and other forms of education would be very beneficial to a child, but no child would choose those over playing Fortnite either. Either the parents would have to force their kids to get some kind of education (which imo, most wouldn't) or the kid would most likely never become educated.
To me, Demon Mama argument is like saying "Yes, I want to stop climate change, but the solution isn't to make laws to get corporations to stop polluting. We should incentivize them to stop polluting by just making it more profitable not to (without giving any realistic ways to do so).
Booksmarts: "To my client's defense, your honor, they did say they were going to do it in Minecraft."
"You know I try to be good faith. Being good faith I have to assume they really meant minecraft."
@@810Lee Books marks has jumped the shark.
@@MuscleboundKage Books Marks?
@@MuscleboundKage MISTYPED OMEGALUL
I like Books but he’s really fucking naïve
Mobster:"Nice store you got here, would be a shame if something happened to it"
Booksmarts:"Ah that nice mobster is concerned about the well being of that store."
To be fair, the mobster didn't express concern, just stated his opinion -concerning- *_on_* a hypothetical event.
edit: appearantly it is not obvious, this is piling on the original comment and making fun of BS sarcastically, as opposed to genuinely defending him
relevant norm macdonald clip
ua-cam.com/video/PMt7C3COiVM/v-deo.html
This is the best analogy I've read...al tho I could be wrong since you just typed two different sentences and never mentioned this was an anology.
@@MaskOfCinder
Content warning: dead frog at Level 2, linguistic nerd-out on Level 3. Proceed at your own risk.
PS before wall of text so you at least read this: I have already spent more time on this than i would be proud of. For any further discussion you would have to find someone even more crazy than me, who is willing to go deeeeep into the trenches, or a spiritual leader, hooker, or lawyer; whom you can pay to listen to you. Or you can always go to r/destiny.
Level 0: you're a genius and you are using 'literally' to mean 'not literally', and i'm missing the joke. good one, and sorry.
Level 1: you are baiting and i am falling for it.
Level 2: you missed the joke and now i'm going to kill the frog for you:
The high-level comment is a joke about BS not getting the implication. My reply is about the fact that even the understanding outlied in the comment (that of expressing concern) relies on more than syntax.
My comment makes fun of BS, parodying his understanding. Of course the mobster is not hypothesizing, nor is he concerned, he is in fact threatening.
Level 3: you got the joke but think it is incorrect.
You are just _wrong._
Syntactically (meaning based only on the meaning of the words, out of context), The entire sentece has nothing to do with the speaker, or their reality. It is implied that the speaker is expressing his own opinions/concerns in context, but it is not there in the words. If you look only at the words (as BS said he does/did), it is entirely hypothetical ("would" explicitly refers to a hypothetical, alternative reality in which something happened to it), and entirely stated as objective fact (no "i think", "in my opinion", i would find it", just "it would be")
@@MrNionys Well you just fucking schooled a guy, that was an amazing read, thank you
I found the disconnect. DM mentions being a kid in the conversation so Booksmarts thinks she's actually a kid, thus she has no accountability in the conversation.
Only explanation I can find for "So demonmama was refusing to engage with anything hanz said, and just kept leading him with stupid stories, this is hanz's fault for not guiding her back".
She realized she was about to argue for the abolishment of child neglect laws and pivoted real quick.
Good catch
“But that’s not what he said, we can go line by line” - some idiot probably
@@opinionshurt2905 we don’t do that here.
@@opinionshurt2905 This is the wrong place to be transphobic homie
@@italianwaffle5592 I mean she’s out here acting how men typically act and mansplaining so….
August should have inserted clips from the original debate in this, there are so many things that Book says from his notes that do not line up with what was actually said. Destiny catches him on two or three of these but there is so much more
i feel bad for how much work we're requesting of august
@@wyvern274 to be fair he does that for alot of videos usually alot longer ones too
@@wyvern274 doesn't he make like 100k as destiny's editor?
@@wyvern274 its literally Augusts job and they get paid really well to do it. Id rather have a well crafted and presented video then a speedy upload.
There are a million other things booksmarts got wrong that destiny didn’t catch.
There are so many thing’s, there’s like an infinite amount of things, it’s wild u guys, there is so much more things books got wrong it’s crazy
An iNcOmPrEHeNsiBLe AmOuNt oF tHiNgS
Man, Booksmarts really “schooled”… oh wait, he really “building’d”… wait no, he really “educated” him…. Wait
Him alternatedly learned he, bok-smat is goodest:
Book smart. Hmmm so he is a master of book identification. Yes that is definitely Harry Potter and the philosopher stone
OutSMARTED him
@@darkee03 outpaced intellectually*
@@rreprah9515 That's Vaush-chan
Sometimes Books completely loses the plot in his quest to be hyper specific and charitable. This is one of those times.
He's completely correct, though.
@@BlakeBigfoot incorrect*
Haven't finished yet but so far Booksmarts has lost almost all of my respect because of this bullshit take
I think in attempt to be hyper specific with the words and argument said in the debate, he stopped considering implications and "loaded" words that are communicated without ever being said explicitly, it's mostly implied based on context
@@apkaiser96 keep watching and reply when you are finished
I was fuming. She literally did say that "all children like to learn" why is no one time stamping it
I'm not because I'm not that invested and a lazy bum.
What's your excuse?
Same
I was so triggered by her "I can't remember a single time me or my siblings didnt want to go to school."
I don't believe that one bit, and on the very rare possibility that it's true....its an exception not ordinary. If you give kids the choice...they aren't going to pick school regularly. She's like have you ever been around a three year old? Umm have you? (idk why they were talking about 3 year olds cause that seems young for school but ya know). Kids don't even like getting up in the morning. If you ask a kid you just woke up if they want to go to school... they will want to go back to sleep.
20:20 "I don't remember a single time in my or my siblings child hood where ANYONE didn't want to go to school." - sounds like she's referring to all children including her siblings. Clearly. Also says "MOST" children will go to school if told to cause they enjoy it.
Yeah I agree. She started talking about how children like learning. I mean, I'm sure they do if it's engaging and if it's a topic they're interested in. They could be interested in learning something like playing a video game, or learning about doing any other non-curricular activity. But that doesn't mean children will enjoy going to school or learning about things like maths or history. In my experiance, children just don't like going to school. Even that smart ones often dislike school. DM's arguement doesn't make any sense.
In Booksmarts quest to be 'specific' he's lost entire points being made by each debater. Its like he had Google translate the conversation and read it over and over again.
thats a really good comparison
It's so frustrating.
His quest isn't to be specific, he's just doing what religious people do when they've already married themselves to a conclusion and are working backwards to justify it.
Hans literally said it’s about getting kids educated so that they can function in society. Book smarts is the only one being bad faith.
@@wyattoutlaw2370 He's not being bad faith, he just did a lot of over compensatory mental gymnastics to frame DMM's arguments in the best possible light (Because he's biased towards hating her), which is a silly thing to do. If you watch the whole video he says all this and agree with destiny.
I’m only 15 minutes into this video but holy shit, I like booksmarts but he can’t seriously be saying that school and education are not basically synonyms in relation to the conversation at hand. This is mind boggling
When talking specifically about mandates yeah. Although it only matters cause DM used it to try and weasel her way out of bad points cause honestly they started off talking about education systems. But DemonMama could've came off looking way better here if she had any skill at all and made Hanz look like he's defending forcing homeschooled kids to go to school.
Even more mind boggling is that mods and subs in booksmarts chat think Destiny was wrong on this one. Interesting community
@@wisetrollman honestly I saw a lot of booksmart's chat being honest and saying Booksmart's was completely off here, but I wonder why his chat has such reasonable people at all?
Booksmarts actually says “I don’t think homeschoolers say they went to school.” 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
@@Skippymabob yeah but we all know what is meant by “school” like if you meet someone that’s homeschooled and ask “hey where did you go to school?” They wouldn’t say “oh I didn’t go to school”
They’d say “oh I was homeschooled” because we all as a society know that they’re essentially the same thing, the only real difference is the location
Or I bet if you asked a homeschooled person “hey what was your favorite subject in school?” They wouldn’t say “oh I was actually homeschooled”
This is one of the first times Booksmarts has actually pissed me off. He’s so good faith that he circles back around to being bad faith.
I know dgg mostly likes him but I always found him obnoxious. I don't get the point of hyperfocusing on rhetoric so much that the things being said lose all meaning. When you're talking with people you have to read between the lines and understand what someone is implying because no one talks 100% directly and honestly all the time. To quote a good comment above
Mobster:"Nice store you got here, would be a shame if something happened to it"
Booksmarts:"Ah that nice mobster is concerned about the well being of that store."
@@breadqueen5351 I agree. I was pleasantly surprised to see him come to realize his irrational level of charitability by the end, though.
@@unconcernedcitizen4092 yes absolutely, that was admirable
Bruh, my thoughts exactly
First time I've seen this dude. I don't want to watch him again. He seems stupid as fuck... How can he read Hans argument so wrong? Hans wanted kids educated so they can contribute to society etc. But Booksmarts just goes on about that Hans just wanted them in school and not educated? Errr What?
I'd love to see if Booksmarts could hold a conversation with demon mama.. That would be a good learning experience
He really is Captain hindsight. He acts like it's possible to talk to these people while never attempting it himself.
He’s stated a lot he considers her bad faith to the point where she’s on the “do not engage” list. Wouldn’t be surprised if he did it anyways if there was enough viewer interest tho tbh.
@@humpyloaddart he engages with content creators all the time
Truee. Yo really understand why ppl call her bad faith it's best to debate her yourself. But she might act friendly towards him cos he often defends her
He would kill himself live
admitting he's wrong is always my favorite part of a booksmarts critique
“I guess I was being ultra-charitable”, aka I was trying to pull a hot-take drop of water out of a stone under the guise of being charitable. This isn’t the first time he’s used that “strategy”. His line by line shit is funny, and rarely, very informative.
@@carlosallison8955 chill dude
@@carlosallison8955 wtf does "pull a hot take drop of water out of a stone" mean?
Dude's slimy af
He can "admit" but just today he already back traced everything on his stream, just watch he last vod
Why isn’t DM held accountable in Book’s eyes for not “furthering the conversational potential” by clarifying the school vs education if he really thinks that is a point in this conversation.
From day 1, booksmarts put DM on the list of “people so bad-faith that I will never interact with them,” like he has an actual list and she’s on it. In other words, DM never gets credit. Book only critiques people worthy of his attention. DM gets excluded from critiques, not because she’s beyond critique, but because Book literally has banned her for life , from ever getting any kind of guidance. He focused on Hanz and Destiny because he wants them to improve while DM is a totally lost cause in Books’ eyes
He kinda talks about that later. Keep watching they actually come to agreement!
He knows it's a lost cause to consider holding some people to account, so he just tunnel visions on "how could a reasonable person have had a more constructive conversation with a Class A retard who is trying to literally destroy the English language in the process of having a conversation?" It's kinda fucking stupid.
@@Sprite_525 He did give DM pointers explicitly in his breakdown. It's not really a "banned for life" list if we're looking at a time where the person is being not only talked about, but given advice in the video. If she watches it to get the advice is another question which I don't think matters.
@@varanaut1308 no
A classic example of being "in too deep". You're so far into the debate culture that you disregard basic human logic.
We're already at the stage where we watch point-by-point commentaries of debates between fecking DemonMama and Hanz, which then evolve into separate pointed debates about the debates themselves. We're already too deep.
this exactly
what booksmarts was trying to do here is a complete waste of time
@@naschylobo Everything you say is true - there isn't a blade of grass in sight from where I'm standing - and yet I would watch a point-by-point breakdown of this debate by someone else. Inject it into my veins, even.
“We killed two birds with one stone”
Booksmarts: What kind of birds? Where’s the stone you used? I can only go by the words you said
Pheasant. Stone's right here.
Man, I had to throw this thing about a thousand times before I hit the 2nd one.
Booksmarts' stance is really that DemonMama derailed so hard, that hans had the onus to keep her on track? Like she's a child that needs to be controlled
Yeah basically. You should patronize adults who demand it imho.
It’s like getting hit by a drunk driver and having a pedestrian blame you for not watching out for drunk drivers
Hanz literally opens the discussion with, "I still believe in mandates for some flavor of education...one of these types."
True. It was infuriating how this clown claimed to be specific yet seemed to have completely selective memory and then abused destiny‘s good faith who could not remember the debate in detail. 😩
@@renatovalsecchi7980 chill amigo, he realized his mistakes by the end and apologized.
and books argument was he never referred to education ever again and kept bringing it back to school
@@DaveChappeleIsGod never said he did not (and I liked that) but for too long they were arguing about half truths about the debates content stated by book. The result was a waste of time for any listener expecting good faith from both participants of the discussion to gain any further insight on the debate between dm and hanz
@@dylankempthorne No that was a pivot late in the game . he clearly said it was bad that hanz never clarified it to begin with again steering the discussion away from any salient point being discussed
When people tell me to "go to the doctor," I always just go to the office and sit in the waiting room for a couple hours before going home
No in this case, going to the doctor would mean literally tracking your doctor down wherever they are, whether it’s the office, the restaurant they’re at with their partner, their bedside in the middle of the night
I show up at their house.
@@codybarlik4524 Damnit you did the joke better than me. This is what I get for not reading...
Nah sorry booksmarts, hang this one up big dog. They are both adults & have the ability to reject any claim made or steer to any position.
This made me feel like Booksmarts was going insane...
At least he redeemed himself in the end.
Booksmarts gives the game away at 19:48 where he claims that even if she chooses to be "slimy or whatever" (i.e. bad faith) Hanz is still the bigger obstacle in the conversation, which is absurd.
This was the densest I’ve ever seen Booksmarts.
Booksmarts is a first gen AI “Change My Mind”
Anyone who thinks that Hanz didn't mean "education" in general when he was saying "school" is an idiot. He clearly states the reasons he wants there to be mandates is for the population to be educated. The vehicle for education doesn't matter. No one is arguing that people should be forced into a specific building. This is a child's take.
I wasn't sure what Book was trying to do there
But how do you know he was referring to 'DemonMama' when he was saying 'you'? Idk im just listening to their words, he could be referring to any You at that point, we dont know!
I don't agree. When you talk about home schooling its specifically the reason why people want school (with standardized subjects and everything) to be mandated. From an EU POV the school mandate allows everyone to have the same general knowledge about basic stuff. We don't want the people homeschooling their children to teach them about flat earth for example.
Books misheard some things and was trying to be as generous as possible to correct for he bias against DM. This led to him thinking Hanz didnt perform well because he didnt pin her down on what booksmarts perceived to be a difference in interpertation of school/education.
@@simj3811 there is still a curriculum that you must follow and standardized tests that you need to pass when homeschooled.
"He never says he wants them to get educated." Bullshit. At the very beginning he lays out why he thinks mandates are important. 1. Education is critical for children. 2. An educated individual is critical for society as a whole.
Absolutely incredible. Even with a concerted effort to read her as acting in good faith she still comes across as a horrible, slimy, dishonest interlocutor.
AMAZINNNNNNN'
When even Captain Charitable gives up, it's bad.
Appreciate Booksmarts and his critiques, even if I disagree with some of them, and him admitting when he gets things wrong.
I'd love to argue with you on this topic. I feel that there is a lot more nuance to be had.
This did feel bad faith tbh
This is probably the most dishonest I have ever seen Booksmarts be, you might have been a little aggressive but DM was impossible to have a real convo with here. Ultimate bad faith DM
@@sevenakuma6490 Arguing for something, being proven wrong, then publicly admitting you were wrong with reasons why is bad faith? I swear, people don’t even know the meaning of bad faith anymore. This is like textbook good faith lol.
Ooof he was real wrong here lol
Destiny getting gaslit for 50 minutes is a good way to spend time before going out and getting rat arsed.
??????? Rat assed?
British slang for getting drunk, getting fucked up, trollied, smashed, pissed, wankered, hammered. There’s some more for you :D
@@Gnoblin Getting drunk, my little w*nkspangle.
@@jakecleary don’t forget bladdered
Rat assed is one of the most incredible terms I’ve heard. Thank you for this
Dear Booksmart, you silly goose, demonmama says "I don't think the solution is mandatory schooling." Clearly talking about the process of learning (see schooling for more details) not just talking about the building known as school. Lmao. If you are going to by hyper specific about words you should take better notes. ;p
I really like the way you worded that criticism! It’s always good to be kind with it. I think BookSmarts has it cut out for him to not miss the forest for the trees when trying to get this technical with his analysis, it may be the case that a slightly more gut-feeling based approach would be more accurate, but that would open the door a bit more for bias to shift the interpretation. It’s pretty tricky.
I was frustrated with him at the start, but by the end I got the sense that he’s making an honest effort. I hope he sticks around
I kind of hate DM and find her fairly annoying, but I also don't think the solution is mandatory schooling. And I don't agree at all that schooling (as it exists now, or even more specifically, when I was enrolled) in the US is even about the process of learning.
Bruh booksmarts has been live for too long because his brain is rotting in real time.
At 20:00 Book is quite literally saying that, even though DM is contributing nothing to the conversation and is being slimy, in his own words, it's Hanz who is in the wrong for not contributing enough to the convo even though he was trying.
Absolute lunatic, first time I've seen him talk and I can't even
Remember he was still under the impression that DemonMama was sort of good faith here. Once you take the concession at the end into account his take from the debate (Hanz won but he did have some rhetorical faults) is much more reasonable
@@rahulgordon2508 credit where it's due, he did understand what he was saying was wrong.
@@rahulgordon2508 how can you concede that someone is using slimy tactics to avoid defending her own position while at the same time believing that person is arguing in good faith?
@@codybarlik4524 But he doesn't think she was arguing in bad faith anymore though. He just overcorrected for bias and that lead him to stupidly mischaracterise her as good faith initially. It wasn't some evil scheme, he was just incorrect. There's nothing wrong with that especially if he admits he was wrong on steam.
Destiny is such an inspiration! He uses his platform to help people with special needs get their voice heard, and teaches them how to understand a conversation.
Ahahah
I don’t understand “school” already isn’t mandatory if getting a tutor or home schooling doesn’t count as going to school so why would she thinks she’s debating about going to “school” not just getting a education
Holy hell, when was Booksmarts possessed by the spirit of Drax???
This is a serious mark on my friendship with Booksmarts .
What kind of mark? Like.. a book.. mark?
No one says "stay in education kids" but the message is not "stay in school but after that don't continue education"
Booksmarts conversations with Destiny are easily my favorite modern content coming out of Destiny's stuff recently.
IDK man, this one was just as painful to watch as the original conversation lol. Booksmarts was "performing" very poorly here.
JLP objects
@@berserker8884 yea was very painful to see him hard focus on "school" =/ "education" in this context :/
@@berserker8884 this was one of the better ones where you can actually laugh at the blaring stupidity, other ones are usually just mind numbingly moronic
"We should build more grocery stores in under privileged communities". Well obviously this person just wants to build grocery stores because he thinks that community really likes going to grocery stores. Not to buy food or anything, just to go into the building.
I swear so many people talk about how smart Booksmarts is but this was like one of the dumbest things I've ever had to sit through in a while. I'm glad Destiny got to make him see how insane he was being here. Everyone in the multiverse was on the same page when Hanz and Demon Mamma were talking about school as a means of obtaining an education and that's what the mandate concerned, not mandating kids going into the building just to go into the building. Holy hell how many brain illnesses did Booksmarts inject into himself for viewing that video? Did he just forget how humans and language function?
That may seem obvious to you but that may be the general understanding but the generality shouldn't be imposed on the individual instances right? Like every response or opposition she gave was in regards to opposing a mandate to going to school, especially the yummy food part, the yummy food part was an incentive to want kids to go to school not to build a mandate.
Booksmarts is standing in the middle of a forest screaming about how he can't be in a forest because he's surrounded by oak trees.
EDIT: but he conceded so its okay
Props to Booksmarts for retracting at the end and realising he was wrong in a good faith manner, even mentioning he overcompensates because he knows he doesn’t like DM.
love booksmarts, still love booksmarts, but him getting mad at dggers for hyperfocusing on certain things and having dumb arguments is kinda funny after his claiming that 'school and education aren't synonymous in this conversation'
Yea because Hanz literally says the reason he thinks school should be mandated is because it is very important to have an educated citizenry that can read and write. This was so stupid from Booksmarts I couldn't tell if he was being bad faith or was just demon mama in a mask lol
@@jmattia24 maybe a bit dumb yeah but I think youd have to be crazy to ascribe bad faith to book
i need more of these wholesome videos. where there is a true agreement at the end and everyone metaphorically hold hands and sing kumbaya
A wife asks her husband, a programmer, “Could you please go shopping for me and buy one carton of milk, and if they have eggs, get 6?”
A short time later the husband comes back with 6 cartons of milk and his wife asks, “Why did you buy 6 cartons of milk?”
He replies, “They had eggs.”
Booksmarts is the programmer...
yea it was very depressing watching this
Credit to Booksmarts for publicly reversing his position in real time after defending it repeatedly. That can be hard to do and I admire Booksmarts for being that committed to the truth.
I think booksmarts just has established himself as an authority on these kind of talks and he just wields the status to baselessly pretend that the convo goes a way that it just doesn't. He gaslights anyone who listens to him
Yeah, the gaslighting is blinding in this convo.
Or he is just an online personality with influence that made a mistake?
I don't understand how anyone vests his condescending pedantry with authority
This is way to harsh on bookfucker. He admitted he was wrong in this very convo. He did mess up, but he owned up to it publicly which is the really good part
@@Naalders if he's non-native English speaker I could maybe see this as a mistake. But in the Vernacular 'school' == 'education' in 99.9% of all conversation.
Well you see Destiny if I read each word literally while ignoring the flow and tone of the conversation, then my point of view totally makes sense!
"Being home schooled is not going to school" I too have been brain blasted listening to this conversation.
"schooling" someone is literally slang for educating them.
I think you can put "School" both above and below the umbrella of education.
Booksmarts is a good guy. He gets too much into rhetoric and it cheapens the analysis he does but overall I don't think he has bad intentions and he's genuinely trying to not be overly aggressive and combative like a lot of breadtubers/debatebros are.
His intentions might be good, but that doesn't change the fact that he gets passive aggressive at times instead of being direct because of exactly those intentions, and also doesn't help that he ends up analyzing conversations in a very non-human way without acknowledging implications in speech.
Especially in this dialogue he seems to have gone a little too far to the other extreme.
You can't really call what booksmarts was talking about rhetoric or analysis, the whole point about education vs school is stupid and even if there was a distinction it wouldn't lead to any breakthroughs. This just seems bad faith to me
@@sluxi I watched half of it, it seemed like it didn't go anywhere. I don't understand why it even was such a lengthy convo
I definitely don't think that Booksmarts is bad faith, but it's triggering me that he specifically states that DM would be against ALL mandates, and then he nitpicks Hanz for not differentiating Education vs. School. Hanz is arguing for a mandate which you could uncharitably say is NOT for education but for school, but we KNOW for CERTAIN that DM even charitably is against ANY mandate.
This is a double standard, and I'm not sure why he holds it.
@@sluxi I also don't understand how this guy makes claims that hanz is responsible for keeping the convo going and the meaning of school when he is a smart guy so the only conclusion I can get is that he's bad faith
My feed is looking straight up holy with all this good faith
Angelic feed 😇
Crazy that booksmarts says he’s going exactly by what they say but he attributes so much extra context to DM saying “make school enticing” like 2 minutes earlier
Why didn't they just watch it together and pause it to talk.?
Bet august was wondering the same.
And by doing that have less content?
I feel like everytime destiny speaks with booksmarts he needs to just respond literally to everything
What's up?
"Uh the sky.... the roof...space?"
How's it going?
"In regards to what? Like am I going somewhere?"
Holy shit
"Who blessed it?"
I just feel that he either does this because he can't read conversation outside of surface level, is doing it to hold ground and just do it in borderline bad faith even tho he knows what they ment, perhaps social awkward or on the spectrum.
I dont have hate towards him just its annoying.
I don't think Booksmarts is bad faith. He just doesn't understand human communication beyond the strict definition of the words they use.
...which is super weird considering he seems to kind of hold himself out as a communication coach of sorts........
@@DrStealthbug I think he has important insights, buy he assumes, for rhetorics sake, ultimate good faith sometimes when it's absolutely underserved.
I think that serves a purpose, but he needs to be more clear about the fact that he understands that some of these statements are in bad faith or are intellectually dishonest, but that he thinks you should engage with them in good faith anyways for the ultimate goal of supremely ideal optics.
Demon mama was absolutely pearl clutching, and I think book gets this on some level, but his rhetorical tactic is to treat all arguments as if they're in good faith.
I think there is definitely something good that can come of that strategy, but it comes off as literally autistic or braindead, kinda both.
I think Booksmarts is just too dead set on the physical conversation and not the metaphysical. He’s been trained to look through logs and find every last word said, which is a good thing.
Unfortunately though, when those words are removed from voices, he loses sight of the bigger picture, all the implications and tone. It’s the same reason why sarcasm is so hard to express through text; that human element to it is necessary.
@@StarShade0 yea its seems he looks so hard at logs that he doesn't have the tone and attitude behind some of the words and phrases almost like he reads them monotoned
@@StarShade0 I think everyone is missing the point of his critique. "Go to school" wasn't defined and so Demonmama was able to squirm and weasel out of anything hard, and the conversation was so bad. Destiny can say that Demonmama wasnt able to defend her argument, but she has plausible deniability that Hanz is talking about SCHOOL, not education.
It seems like booksmarts was so incredibly accomadating to DM meanwhile he held Hans to the highest standard. He literally blamed Hans for letting DM go off topic rather than holding DM responsible for going off topic and derailing the conversation.
Also I'm not sure what Booksmarts meant when he was saying school for the first 40ish minutes. A mandatory institution to educate children is more or less school, regardless of whether or not its relies on tutors instead of educated teachers or is run like a spec-ed operation. Infact the majority of schools have a special education program, making it even more baffling when he says special education is not school. We even call it "homeschooling" when kids are taught by their parents or a hired tutor, so trying to draw a distinction between education and school in general is poorly thought out.
Didnt mean hed deny it or anything, im glad he recognizes it. Just find it kinda weird, i always found him to usually be the most reasonable one in the conversation and this was just kinda... idk baffling to me
This dude has a huge Microsoft paint dialogue of the conversation and he's still way off base. Destiny's going off memory and in my opinion doing a much better job of remembering how it actually happened. Just ridiculous.
You guys realize this is all Booksmarts has ever done, right? It's a super easy racket requiring zero actual expertise. He's not stupid, he's weasel-wording and trying to pass it off as analysis. When that fails, he "concedes" and gets to salvage the engagement by making the audience think "at least he's honest enough to admit that he's wrong." If you buy this act you're suckers.
God, he's even more insufferable to me than Vaush or DM. I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees past the "nice guy, good-faith, arbiter of truth" shtick. My question is, why does Destiny give him the time of day? He has to have picked up on Booksmart's bullshit after this debate, right?
Destiny looking good with that beard
Booksmarts: Do you have an example of this happening?
Destiny: (*gives example of this happening*)
Booksmarts: So you don't really have any examples of this happening.
**
Booksmarts: So why do you think this?
Destiny: (*takes more than a second to respond*)
Booksmarts: *smugly smirks at the camera*
.
Booksmarts is the polar opposite to DemonMama tactics. Calmly speaking slowly while just not listening to whose opposite them.
Didn't Book change his position when they went through the shitshow together? He even asked for tips on how he could prevent this from happening in the future.
I think BS needs to spend more time actually debating rather than Monday morning quarterbacking
Hes not a debater why should he be?
@@idontgetthejoke4813 It will probably give him more perspective when critiquing people that are debating. It is easy to nitpick and say how you feel the debate should have gone, but it is another to navigate thru it in an actual debate.
for having a line-by-line breakdown of the conversation and tripling down on that "education" was not explicitly brought up, seems weird that someone would miss the phrase "education system" 5 minutes into the conversation.
The hypocrisy is apparent Book is overly charitable to DM but holds the other debater accountable for demonmama's gishgalloping/nonsense
Brain worms.... Books hasn't been taking his Ivermectin
The way Booksmarts was arguing about the semantics of which term to use and the meaning of the words used reminded me so much of the Syntax Grammar nonsense I’ve heard from SovCits before.
The kind of word semantics like someone saying,
“If you want to challenge jurisdiction, then file a motion with the court” only to be responded to with,
“How would I motion with the court? The building can’t move like I can!”
Hanz specifically mentions "education system" multiple times at the start but NOOOOO let's pretend everything was specifically 'schools' nice ol' good faith booksharts.
If he wasn’t good faith, why would he admit he was wrong immediately when shown an example?
@Scott Holcomb So why doesn’t every bad faith person, like Demonmamma, just admit they’re wrong all the time? Isn’t that the opposite of bad faith behavior? I don’t think you’re using bad faith in the traditional way
Homeschooling isn't schooling!
Dude....it's in the fucking name!
This one really caught me off guard I like these videos with him usually because he tends to center destiny and make him a lil better but this one was off the rails you would think homey was smashing demon mama by how generous he was
Both of these boys brought their bias into the discussion. Destiny doesnt like DM and her debate style, Books was opposed to Hans' debate stance.
I had a lot of respect for booksmarts before this but it's clear how he is missing almost every point. It feels like he cannot pickup on basically any inferences lol
i don't think you need to lose respect for someone who has an opposing view on a nuanced matter. I disagree with Booksmarts but I think it provides a good discussion to constantly challenge your beliefs. Bit of a stretch to just start disliking him.
@@drodi7320 You misread the comment above completely.
No mention of him having the opposing view, no mention that he didn't liked to be challenged.
@@santiagoley6403 I don't really follow. My main point is that I think it is a stretch to lose respect for Booksmarts because of this argument.
He's playing stupid. When people play stupid during debates you should just treat them like they are as stupid as they are pretending to be.
I do appreciate Books doing the rhetoric teaching tour on Twitch. It really has great potential if any of it sticks and him testing Stephen's thinking (and patience) is a really good mental excercise for Stephen as well. I'm certain it's making him a more formidable speaker, debater and analyst of discussions. He's biggest weakness is getting agitated often for good reason but too soon and he misses what went wrong. A lot of people don't have the chops to get even started with this.
“You know I’m always trying to be good faith”
“going to school and getting an education are not the same thing”......................BRO WHAT?!?!?
They aren’t the same thing. You can get an education in ways that don’t involve going to school
@@jondeweyart but you know that is not what is being said here
@@jondeweyart getting an education in academia requires you to go to school, whether that’s homeschool, catholic school, online school, they’re all schools. Name 3 ways you can get an education in academia without going to school, I’d like to see you fuckin try.
@@jondeweyart when someone says the word education, the next word that should pop into your head should be school. If it’s not you’re on god damn heroin
@@mandoz353 specifically, there are mentorships, residency programs, apprenticeships, tutoring programs. These are all ways for someone to get an education without necessarily going to school.
Book correctly states that there is a distinction between ‘going to school’ and ‘getting an education’, but it gets lost in the hanz/dm discussion because neither of them clearly state what they mean and the conversation completely fizzles out
"GOING to school". Emphasize on GOING. You don't go anywhere when you are at home.
13 minutes in and this dude is already splitting hairs at every turn.
Being rushed to the hospital
Booksmarts: oh cool. Is it a nice building?
No I'm dying
Booksmarts: :O
This is basically gaslighting. The way Booksmarts uses every strategy that exists in order to bend reality as much as possible to win this argument.
Nobody talking about the fact that stuff like tutoring and homeschooling do in fact fall under the US education mandate already?
Idk who this dude is but he seems to be more than slightly confused.
I detest the school therapist act. He reminds me of the Bob's Burgers councilor character.
Booksmarts: "All you did was tell me you were gonna go to bed. You never told me you were gonna wake up >:("
This would be funny if it was satire.
Hilarious how booksmarts tries so fucking hard to assert that their disagreement was between education and schooling (the building). Especially since Hanz literally says in his opening statement "mandating education". Essay writer btw.
100% agree, booksmarts just gets bogged down in his own notes, if it's not there then it's not in the debate, many times he's missed words or misinterpreted and went off on chat for correcting him until he finally rewatches it and agrees he was wrong, never learning.
I honestly can't tell if Booksmarts was being bad faith at the beginning.
Hooray. Reconciliation?
Edit: holy shit, was this whole thing a meme?
You wish, he was very much serious.
@@PaperMache7 I do actually. I nearly winced so hard my face folded inward.
This is literally the meme with the conspiracy guy pointing at a whiteboard covered in red connecting threads
I agree with Destiny about the "school" thing. Hanz was using "school" in place of "education." Like we need to school all chidren in some way and we need mandates to be able to achieve that goal.
Literally everyone knows that. And anyone pretending they don't is playing stupid.
yeah, tbh if someone is talking about "going to school" i think he means "going to school", not "go to another room and get home schooled"
but 100% dmm in the end realized her hard anti government force stance meant letting kids with uncaring parents just roblox themselves, and that's why she fought to stop the conversation
DemonMama will claim all of this criticism is because of transphobia
Such a surreal talk. What this conversation does very well is to demonstrate that you cannot judge how well a given debate “progressed” if you do not understand the argument.
From this convo I concluded that booksmarts is sleeping with demonmama
LMAO
I'd watch that...
Especially if they included the high level ideas they discussed post coitus.
@@Axxilles it's content
I think Destiny is talking about Grice's Maxims when he mentions conversation being partially unspoken
This was the most cathartic video I have ever watched.
Actually impressed that booksmarts was admiting to being wrong. Not alot of people would admit being wrong. So good on him
The amount of charity he gives to demon but not hanz is mind numbing
24:05
"Somebody who was homeschooled wouldn't say they went to school they would say they were homeschooled"
I'm literally shaking right now, like I can't even.
I kept asking myself throughout this whole thing, “Is Booksmarts for real..?” If you have seen the actual debate, you would think the same thing
14:30 It's so weird, but I really do agree that DemonMama clearly had this idea in her head that Hanz just wanted to mandate school, and not just a broader standard of education. That's why she keeps going on these tangents about antifa supersoldier children who are terrified of school, like she wants Hanz to "bite the bullet" and "admit" that they don't have to go to school and can do homeschooling or professional tutoring instead. She thinks that's the alternative she's arguing for. TLDR Booksmarts is right that Hanz should have built that bridge, but honestly the onus for that miscommunication is on DM because she ought to know it's uncommon, as she's making the affirmative argument for change here.
I also got the impression she thinks the mandate is basically kidnapping children and forcing them into school, which is its own can of worms. The mandate exists so that purposefully allowing a child never to get an education can be legislated as child abuse, which I think even DM would agree it is.
Given that she said that she would be against a school mandate even if school was absolutely perfect in every way imaginable that seems like a useless point to make.
@@coke2679 But that's not his position. His position is we should mandate education, which includes these "gotchas" DM was trying to get. If he had seen the misunderstanding, this would've been a free rebuttal for him.
@@himethisisme If she says she's against mandating school even if it's perfect, that implies she's against mandating any education at all. It implies the issue is not with school being imperfect. If school is perfect, no alternatives need to be provided.
@@coke2679 Right, but she's trying to say (perhaps in purposeful bad faith) that Hanz wants to force children into schools. Even though the "schools" part has nothing to do with her position, she's trying for an optical win by getting Hanz to admit to wanting to force kids into school busses. The trouble is, the "schools" bit has nothing to do with Hanz's position either, so he could've had a layup by taking a step back and refocusing.
Isn't hanz arguing for the mandate that already exists? Under that mandate, you can already be homeschooled or tutored instead.
So if DM says she is against the mandate, then of course Hanz wouldn't think she means kids should be allowed to do something they are already allowed to do
Of all the disagreements I've seen these two have, I've never been so baffled by booksmart's argument lol. I dont know what he's on in this conversation
But he did though. Hanz talked about how not being educated poisons people's ability to live a happy and healthy life!
I'm glad he changed his opinion at the end but man this one was rough to sit through. For someone whose whole career is based around analyzing debates this was a major yikes moment.....
Bookmarks is stupid
DemonMama looked so bad in that debate that I think you almost have to be bad faith to argue that she did well or had salient points
yUmMy FoOd!
I was watching out of horror, I usually don't comment on videos, nor frequent destiny's content too often, but I saw the debate they were talking about and then this.....I've never seen someone who couldn't follow a simple conversation to this extent. Eye opening
Demon Mama clearly states that she is for free expression / freedom, etc and against mandates, she even gives a big emphasis on this with a very clearly worded statement describing such. She is OK with voluntary school or voluntary education. The debate was to mandate or not to mandate (a legit debate). No where in the conversation did the conflict arise between DM and Han on the distinction with school or education within any of their talking points. If it never came up, then the distinction wasn't the problem. Especially when an argument for voluntarism was based on lunches.
How someone could assign victory / defeat over a conflict which never existed in the convo amazes me. Perhaps this was a deep big brain performative example to highlight our flawed system.