People saying quality is gambling don´t understand the concept. It is the same as with the kovarex enrichment. When you increase the throughput the chance does not matter.
True, in gambling you can lose, here you're guaranteed to get a value parity at the very least. Integrating quality modules at every step, and then using normal quality items for items that don't benefit from quality (belts, rockets, foundations) seems like an efficient strategy at the time.
I love that quality is system that encourages you to build more complex setups instead of just bigger factories. I always preferred mods that increase the complexity instead of trying to build a megabase with x science per minute. Can't wait for Monday
my inital thought is that it will be best to focus on getting quality quality modules right from when they're unlocked, so when you get round to building a setup to produce quality items, your compound chances are much increased
It's normal that not everyone will like the quality modules. It's quite uncommon to find people who love everything - rare, even. But in my opinion, this new aspect of the game is epic. That's exactly what you'd expect from the legendary developer, Wube.
When dealing with the scale of factorio production, it's less gambling and just becomes a matter of the Law of Large Numbers Think of uranium processing from 1.0 vanilla. Obtaining Active uranium is a sub percent chance. But with having only 4 processors, supporting a nuclear reactor becomes a given. It's not shooting the poop. Without training, the human brain is awful at dealing with probability and statistics. Confounding that is also the human deficiencies in imagining large numbers.
Quality is one of the most exciting thing for me! It seems nothing like lootboxing, but much more like the startup of uranium processing. Super looking forward to making all kinds of quality producing factories!
I know its not gambling cause with enough throughput chance wont matter as someone in the comments already stated. But thats not ganno stop me from getting a dopamine rush when I see a legendary item
I'm totally fan of quality, simple because every single factory game has the issue where to build big you fps and ups goes to nothing pretty fast. Always been suggesting that those game had a building multiplier, like higher version that require 5x the material, 10x, 100x, so it would still cost the same as building 100, or even more, but it would also make the same as 100 with only 1 building, which would drastically improve fps and ups, and quality kind of does exactly that. One of the reasons that most factory games like factorio or satsfactory always have a mod that make a "super" machine that make 100x of anything
Minor note there, the quality mod is required mod with Space Age. However you can choose not to research it and then you don't have it in your UI. Some were saying it's because recycler comes from that mod and it's vital machine on Fulgora.
I did not know that quality worked on ores. Honestly though, I will probably stick to the method he didn't like. Speed/bulk produce like normal, then stamp down a standardized recycling loop at the end product. Start with something you need in very low quantities like oil refineries. Once you get an adequate stockpile, you can then funnel off those higher quality base/intermediate materials into new quality producing setups.
I love quality, it's gonna be super fun to setup a separate quality factory for modules/power armour. One downside I have with the system is having to select the specific quality recipe. I wish it worked more like outcome quality = average ingredient quality + quality module So if you're making electronic circuits with 3 cable and 1 plate, if the plate is legendary (which is quality tier 5) and wires are common (tier 0), average quality would be 5/4 or 1.25, so you'd always get uncommon circuits out, with 25% chance of quality bump to rare. This does mean you could only bump 1 tier at a time based on chance, but you could more easily make rare/epic things. And over time as you craft green circuits into red and then into blue, they'd just get higher and higher because you also have +10% or so from modules. And then you take all the uncommon/rare/epic stuff, recycle it down, put it back in the system, and take legendary stuff and make it into modules/power armour. Now it seems like you have to recycle at every step of the process, since if you want legendary blue circuits, it doesn't really make sense to input common/uncommon things into that, better to just recycle back and forth and keep crafting until you get legendary. Although my idea would require quality items to be stackable with their non quality counterparts while still preserving their data, at least when put in any crafting machine, which seems like a pain to implement. Still, can't wait to make a fully legendary base making 10k+ SPM, it's gonna be very fun either way!
I like the idea. Probably not for the whole factory but for spaceships and personal equipment. It makes the need for mods like "better Spidertron", "Better Armor" etc. obsolet and you still need to put some work/automation to get the better stuff. And you always need to balance your factory how much I want to put in quality (slowing down my factory) against normal production.
What a cool setup! Thanks for the ground-up insight! Maybe it was just for demonstration, but I dont think filtration and separation of ores and intermediate products is necessary if you also separate the final products. I think it would actually be better for throughput to not have dedicated legendary furnaces with dedicated legendary rail car slots. If legendary lasers are the objective, I think optimal throughput would just be typical steel/battery/green chips with occasional seeding from up-qualitied components, assuming 1 of 3 uncommon components results in a 33% chance for an uncommon final product, a recycling loop for suboptimals would recoup that 66% and you'd be printing legendary lasers after a few minutes. I think the first 4 quality chips made should go right back into the quality chip assembler, starting that loop seems very important. Its not gambling! It's six sigma! Thats why everyone hates these "epic" "legendary" names instead of "superior" "exceptional" "flawless" or actual grading terms.
for the quality smelting builds, in addition to using productivity in the legendary-ore smelters, I would suggest using productivity in the epic ore smelters as well. The output of epic and legendary ore is so low that productivity is probably more useful than quality. You'll have plenty of additional chances to roll higher quality products from the epic plate further down the production line, so it's better to use quality in the normal, uncommon and rare ore builds, but use productivity in the epic and legendary builds.
@@camrenw9719 that only applies to assembler-recycler loops for the purpose of outputting only legendary results. What i'm talking about is the value prospect of putting quality modules in furnaces vs productivity modules for the epic ore.
The more & more i hear about quality, the less excited i get, that i think I'll need a mod to come out changing it to enjoy it. Personally, considering everything I've seen, but obviously not played yet: I feel like the rng part isn't the issue I'm going to have with quality as a mechanic, but that it doesn't seem to operate in a teir up system, that no matter how much effort you put into quality, you will always be earning lower than desired quality levels. Considering the mechanic of guaranteeing the minimum quality of what you're crafting based on the quality of ingredients you put in, i feel like that creates a perfect opportunity to have some way of guaranteeing your entire factory works at a specific quality teir. Anyway I'll finish up by saying. Obviously its a optional mechanic so I'm not that fussed, I'll just stick to things like Bob's mods with it's tiered buildings or be on the lookout for a quality mechanic changing mod. Also who knows what type of easy to create optimal builds ppl will discover/create that might make it easy to get & use quality.
The step you need to take for that is simply dealing with the low quality “byproducts”. You can recycle anything below your desired quality and essentially guarantee that you only output what you want. Also, once you get far enough to have legendary T3 modules, this will be extremely fast since 25% of all your products will have a higher tier than before. And with inputs guaranteeing output quality, 25% uncommon green circuits will guarantee 25% uncommon red circuits, etc. If you recycle ALL common green circuits, you will ONLY get uncommon red circuits. I think getting started with quality will be a pain in the butt; however, you can set up your normal mall with quality modules and gather a few uncommon and perhaps even rare assemblers and stuff like that while you are playing normally. Then, once you want to REALLY scale up, you gather everything you have (much like setting up uranium early so that you can start enrichment the moment you unlock it) and you’ll see exponential growth in how fast you produce high quality items. I think most SA-endgame bases will be able to easily produce what is required to switch to legendary quality.
This legendary setup is hilarious lol. I think we will need the belt that load inside de machine from krastorio What do you think to store higher quality items at the beginning just before they go to the main bus?
The idea of gambling is missing just how much you produce in a game and how much is required. Simple point would be we have an achievement for producing 5k Processing units per hour, at 5k per hour, you are already getting to the point where your getting a lot of quality products (4500 common, 450 uncommon, 45 rare, and 5 Epic/Legendary as relatively expected rolls based on the shown probabilities.) and this is already for Blue circuits, if you start from the bottom, you get to a point where you can be pulling Rare+ at a decent rate.
My biggest concern with Quality is just the setup to get quality products mid-to-end game. I feel like it's going to be a huge headache. Other than that, I am definitely sold on having a single machine spitting a billion steel per minute.
One question I have… when the recycler successfully outputs the base materials, will those have a guaranteed minimum quality based on the recycled item’s quality?
First time i'm heard about it I definitely don't like it, but after digging a little dipper it's seems like even balanced? And thing that it's opening a lot of new setups to play around also seems interesting
Nobody doubted of it's incredible speed, but the question is, Is it worth it? Having to make a "quality production cycle" for each component sounds way more complicated and expensive than just making a factory bigger. The only good reason to use them is if there is limited space, like in a space platform. But beyond that, each world is literally infinite and space is usually never a problem. Correct me if I'm wrong
framerate. Maybe the first 1000 machines run fine, but at 2000 machines you are now running at 56 FPS, then at 3000 machines you are at 45 FPS. Your computer cannot handle an infinite sized factory. So a smaller more powerful factory will produce the same amount as a huge factory and not i pact your frames.
I am confused how the thing is calculated like is it a 0.01% chance with t3 legendary quality mods or is that for the tier 1 normal quality mods? I wish there was a graph for that.
the chances are kinda confusing, but the simple way to understand it is that the quality modules percent adds up to the chance an upgrade happens to the quality, If that happen another roll is made at 1/10 to upgrade it again and if that succeeds you it will roll again with 1/10, and so on until a roll fails or it's already legendary.
the only thing I don't like about quality is the appearance: both in terms of the coloured dots (although I must say it is clear), but also the naming of the quality levels seem a bit out of character (they could have gone with much more in-theme names, like "efficient" or "optimised" or something). The mechanics are very cool though.
Who would call this gambling? on the scale of factorio, a 1% chance means that 1/100 of every item is gonna be a bit more rare, like on such a large scale its not a chance its a constant. Also there are no flashing lights to release dophamine you wont even get addicted to it (ignore the factorio addiction syndrome for a moment)
27:08 This setup is kind of bad. Large footprint, few beacons. But more importantly, I don't really see the need to split different quality level items into spaghetti belts all the time. What's stopping anybody from just having a simple line of machines outputting every product every time on a single 'sushi quality' belt, and filtering all of it just *once*. Actually, why not the same for inputs? On that topic, I can't be the only one who is disappointed in Quality requiring different recipes in the same assemblers just for different target qualities of the same product. This should've been done automatically. But (hopefully) you should be able to switch target quality levels with assembler circuit control magic. Route all undesired products into a recycler and priority merge the results back into the ingredients (with obvious exceptions such as raw ores). Only produce high level quality products. Will take a long time, but that's what beacons and speed modules are good for.
People saying quality is gambling don´t understand the concept. It is the same as with the kovarex enrichment. When you increase the throughput the chance does not matter.
Its also a hard ratio that you can see, and the numbers you produce of goods means you are guaranteed to get what you want eventually
True, in gambling you can lose, here you're guaranteed to get a value parity at the very least. Integrating quality modules at every step, and then using normal quality items for items that don't benefit from quality (belts, rockets, foundations) seems like an efficient strategy at the time.
I know, some people are just..... too stupid.
I also understand its not gambling but seeing that orange tag is ganno give me a dopamine rush everytime
exactly, gambling, my ass. rng, yes, some despise it passionately, but gambling is entirely another damn thing.
Lets go *-GAMBLING!-* stacking all variables in our odds through clever preparation.
I love that quality is system that encourages you to build more complex setups instead of just bigger factories. I always preferred mods that increase the complexity instead of trying to build a megabase with x science per minute. Can't wait for Monday
my inital thought is that it will be best to focus on getting quality quality modules right from when they're unlocked, so when you get round to building a setup to produce quality items, your compound chances are much increased
I'm already planning in my head how to craft legendary weapons and assemblers and so on.
The factory must grow and be faster!
It's normal that not everyone will like the quality modules. It's quite uncommon to find people who love everything - rare, even. But in my opinion, this new aspect of the game is epic. That's exactly what you'd expect from the legendary developer, Wube.
When dealing with the scale of factorio production, it's less gambling and just becomes a matter of the Law of Large Numbers
Think of uranium processing from 1.0 vanilla. Obtaining Active uranium is a sub percent chance. But with having only 4 processors, supporting a nuclear reactor becomes a given. It's not shooting the poop.
Without training, the human brain is awful at dealing with probability and statistics. Confounding that is also the human deficiencies in imagining large numbers.
99% of engineer quit right before getting a legendary item
Quality is one of the most exciting thing for me! It seems nothing like lootboxing, but much more like the startup of uranium processing. Super looking forward to making all kinds of quality producing factories!
Do fluids have quality? Do they count as normal when figuring out the minimum quality of a product?
I will start watching any Factorio related videos after Monday, when everyone else can also play
I know its not gambling cause with enough throughput chance wont matter as someone in the comments already stated.
But thats not ganno stop me from getting a dopamine rush when I see a legendary item
I 100% feel the same way. I got the same with early game uranium processing, just such a nice feeling to see those glowy greens pop up!
If your factory isn't all Legendaries, is it even a factory?
If your factory above 60UPS its a starter base
I'm totally fan of quality, simple because every single factory game has the issue where to build big you fps and ups goes to nothing pretty fast.
Always been suggesting that those game had a building multiplier, like higher version that require 5x the material, 10x, 100x, so it would still cost the same as building 100, or even more, but it would also make the same as 100 with only 1 building, which would drastically improve fps and ups, and quality kind of does exactly that.
One of the reasons that most factory games like factorio or satsfactory always have a mod that make a "super" machine that make 100x of anything
Minor note there, the quality mod is required mod with Space Age. However you can choose not to research it and then you don't have it in your UI. Some were saying it's because recycler comes from that mod and it's vital machine on Fulgora.
That production is truly mind blowing. I wonder just how high the limits of megabase SPM will go?
i think the devs at some point said that they wanted a MILLION spm to be possible
I wouldn't put you in a recycler, you're as legendary as it gets.
I did not know that quality worked on ores. Honestly though, I will probably stick to the method he didn't like. Speed/bulk produce like normal, then stamp down a standardized recycling loop at the end product. Start with something you need in very low quantities like oil refineries. Once you get an adequate stockpile, you can then funnel off those higher quality base/intermediate materials into new quality producing setups.
I love quality, it's gonna be super fun to setup a separate quality factory for modules/power armour.
One downside I have with the system is having to select the specific quality recipe. I wish it worked more like
outcome quality = average ingredient quality + quality module
So if you're making electronic circuits with 3 cable and 1 plate, if the plate is legendary (which is quality tier 5) and wires are common (tier 0), average quality would be 5/4 or 1.25, so you'd always get uncommon circuits out, with 25% chance of quality bump to rare. This does mean you could only bump 1 tier at a time based on chance, but you could more easily make rare/epic things. And over time as you craft green circuits into red and then into blue, they'd just get higher and higher because you also have +10% or so from modules. And then you take all the uncommon/rare/epic stuff, recycle it down, put it back in the system, and take legendary stuff and make it into modules/power armour. Now it seems like you have to recycle at every step of the process, since if you want legendary blue circuits, it doesn't really make sense to input common/uncommon things into that, better to just recycle back and forth and keep crafting until you get legendary.
Although my idea would require quality items to be stackable with their non quality counterparts while still preserving their data, at least when put in any crafting machine, which seems like a pain to implement.
Still, can't wait to make a fully legendary base making 10k+ SPM, it's gonna be very fun either way!
I like the idea. Probably not for the whole factory but for spaceships and personal equipment. It makes the need for mods like "better Spidertron", "Better Armor" etc. obsolet and you still need to put some work/automation to get the better stuff. And you always need to balance your factory how much I want to put in quality (slowing down my factory) against normal production.
What a cool setup! Thanks for the ground-up insight! Maybe it was just for demonstration, but I dont think filtration and separation of ores and intermediate products is necessary if you also separate the final products. I think it would actually be better for throughput to not have dedicated legendary furnaces with dedicated legendary rail car slots. If legendary lasers are the objective, I think optimal throughput would just be typical steel/battery/green chips with occasional seeding from up-qualitied components, assuming 1 of 3 uncommon components results in a 33% chance for an uncommon final product, a recycling loop for suboptimals would recoup that 66% and you'd be printing legendary lasers after a few minutes. I think the first 4 quality chips made should go right back into the quality chip assembler, starting that loop seems very important.
Its not gambling! It's six sigma! Thats why everyone hates these "epic" "legendary" names instead of "superior" "exceptional" "flawless" or actual grading terms.
Love this. It's nice to have a new challenge to build for.
Thanks, this is exactly what I need while waiting for the release.
yeah i totally agree, it's basically a regression to the mean
for the quality smelting builds, in addition to using productivity in the legendary-ore smelters, I would suggest using productivity in the epic ore smelters as well. The output of epic and legendary ore is so low that productivity is probably more useful than quality. You'll have plenty of additional chances to roll higher quality products from the epic plate further down the production line, so it's better to use quality in the normal, uncommon and rare ore builds, but use productivity in the epic and legendary builds.
There's a section on the quality page of the wiki that talks about that. "if quality strength >x - use quality,
@@camrenw9719 that only applies to assembler-recycler loops for the purpose of outputting only legendary results.
What i'm talking about is the value prospect of putting quality modules in furnaces vs productivity modules for the epic ore.
exactly the video I wanted!
Thinking I'll use quality on my 2nd playthrough of space age
The more & more i hear about quality, the less excited i get, that i think I'll need a mod to come out changing it to enjoy it.
Personally, considering everything I've seen, but obviously not played yet: I feel like the rng part isn't the issue I'm going to have with quality as a mechanic, but that it doesn't seem to operate in a teir up system, that no matter how much effort you put into quality, you will always be earning lower than desired quality levels. Considering the mechanic of guaranteeing the minimum quality of what you're crafting based on the quality of ingredients you put in, i feel like that creates a perfect opportunity to have some way of guaranteeing your entire factory works at a specific quality teir.
Anyway I'll finish up by saying. Obviously its a optional mechanic so I'm not that fussed, I'll just stick to things like Bob's mods with it's tiered buildings or be on the lookout for a quality mechanic changing mod. Also who knows what type of easy to create optimal builds ppl will discover/create that might make it easy to get & use quality.
The step you need to take for that is simply dealing with the low quality “byproducts”. You can recycle anything below your desired quality and essentially guarantee that you only output what you want.
Also, once you get far enough to have legendary T3 modules, this will be extremely fast since 25% of all your products will have a higher tier than before. And with inputs guaranteeing output quality, 25% uncommon green circuits will guarantee 25% uncommon red circuits, etc. If you recycle ALL common green circuits, you will ONLY get uncommon red circuits. I think getting started with quality will be a pain in the butt; however, you can set up your normal mall with quality modules and gather a few uncommon and perhaps even rare assemblers and stuff like that while you are playing normally. Then, once you want to REALLY scale up, you gather everything you have (much like setting up uranium early so that you can start enrichment the moment you unlock it) and you’ll see exponential growth in how fast you produce high quality items.
I think most SA-endgame bases will be able to easily produce what is required to switch to legendary quality.
This legendary setup is hilarious lol.
I think we will need the belt that load inside de machine from krastorio
What do you think to store higher quality items at the beginning just before they go to the main bus?
The idea of gambling is missing just how much you produce in a game and how much is required.
Simple point would be we have an achievement for producing 5k Processing units per hour, at 5k per hour, you are already getting to the point where your getting a lot of quality products (4500 common, 450 uncommon, 45 rare, and 5 Epic/Legendary as relatively expected rolls based on the shown probabilities.) and this is already for Blue circuits, if you start from the bottom, you get to a point where you can be pulling Rare+ at a decent rate.
My biggest concern with Quality is just the setup to get quality products mid-to-end game. I feel like it's going to be a huge headache. Other than that, I am definitely sold on having a single machine spitting a billion steel per minute.
Does power consumption scale with quality? If so, by how much?
One question I have… when the recycler successfully outputs the base materials, will those have a guaranteed minimum quality based on the recycled item’s quality?
First time i'm heard about it I definitely don't like it, but after digging a little dipper it's seems like even balanced? And thing that it's opening a lot of new setups to play around also seems interesting
Nobody doubted of it's incredible speed, but the question is, Is it worth it? Having to make a "quality production cycle" for each component sounds way more complicated and expensive than just making a factory bigger. The only good reason to use them is if there is limited space, like in a space platform. But beyond that, each world is literally infinite and space is usually never a problem. Correct me if I'm wrong
framerate. Maybe the first 1000 machines run fine, but at 2000 machines you are now running at 56 FPS, then at 3000 machines you are at 45 FPS. Your computer cannot handle an infinite sized factory. So a smaller more powerful factory will produce the same amount as a huge factory and not i pact your frames.
8:37 no, we can not, SA became available only at Monday %)
I read quality as quantum so for a second I thought there was some major exploits to be found.
i can't wait for someone to mod 20 more rarity and giving crasier multiplier
I fear the game allows so much vertical growth that it’s destroyed horizontal growth
I am confused how the thing is calculated like is it a 0.01% chance with t3 legendary quality mods or is that for the tier 1 normal quality mods? I wish there was a graph for that.
the chances are kinda confusing, but the simple way to understand it is that the quality modules percent adds up to the chance an upgrade happens to the quality, If that happen another roll is made at 1/10 to upgrade it again and if that succeeds you it will roll again with 1/10, and so on until a roll fails or it's already legendary.
Waiting for OP mods
it's only a matter of time for a single player to reach a million SPM
the only thing I don't like about quality is the appearance: both in terms of the coloured dots (although I must say it is clear), but also the naming of the quality levels seem a bit out of character (they could have gone with much more in-theme names, like "efficient" or "optimised" or something). The mechanics are very cool though.
ah you mentioned the names yourself already
Hrm.. I was not a fan of quality because it seems less engineer like. But now I am seeing it as something else to engineer.
Who would call this gambling? on the scale of factorio, a 1% chance means that 1/100 of every item is gonna be a bit more rare, like on such a large scale its not a chance its a constant. Also there are no flashing lights to release dophamine you wont even get addicted to it (ignore the factorio addiction syndrome for a moment)
can you put quality modules in beacons?
You can't, just like productivity
@@michavandenenk5167 okqy thank you very much!👍
🤩
Legendary inserters look ridiculous.
🎉
27:08 This setup is kind of bad. Large footprint, few beacons. But more importantly, I don't really see the need to split different quality level items into spaghetti belts all the time.
What's stopping anybody from just having a simple line of machines outputting every product every time on a single 'sushi quality' belt, and filtering all of it just *once*. Actually, why not the same for inputs?
On that topic, I can't be the only one who is disappointed in Quality requiring different recipes in the same assemblers just for different target qualities of the same product. This should've been done automatically. But (hopefully) you should be able to switch target quality levels with assembler circuit control magic.
Route all undesired products into a recycler and priority merge the results back into the ingredients (with obvious exceptions such as raw ores). Only produce high level quality products. Will take a long time, but that's what beacons and speed modules are good for.
I just want to point out that with quality you really don't want to use speed beacons because speed decreases the chance to get quality.
kovarex 2
This makes me mad.
CAUSE I CANT PLAY YET!!!!
Gambling at scale is just statistics.