People saying quality is gambling don´t understand the concept. It is the same as with the kovarex enrichment. When you increase the throughput the chance does not matter.
True, in gambling you can lose, here you're guaranteed to get a value parity at the very least. Integrating quality modules at every step, and then using normal quality items for items that don't benefit from quality (belts, rockets, foundations) seems like an efficient strategy at the time.
@@Xterminator btw, the proper term for the idea you were describing at 12:00 is "The law of large numbers". You are total right in how once you understand that concept, you can safely stop viewing quality as a percentage thing and start viewing it as a fixed ratio. I.E., if you are producing 10 items/min with 10% quality, you can say that you are producing 1 item/min of the next highest quality 0.1 items/min of the second next, etc.
It's normal that not everyone will like the quality modules. It's quite uncommon to find people who love everything - rare, even. But in my opinion, this new aspect of the game is epic. That's exactly what you'd expect from the legendary developer, Wube.
I love that quality is system that encourages you to build more complex setups instead of just bigger factories. I always preferred mods that increase the complexity instead of trying to build a megabase with x science per minute. Can't wait for Monday
@@wigoow1206 Same, it adds a nice mix of both in my opinion! You need to build things differently and perhaps more complex but also bigger too to get it to work well
Yeah, so when you have basically the same recycling concept to make every kind of legendary item, that totally won't be "more of the same". Maybe a challenge to figure out how to make half the items with a single parameterized BP? And then the bar for a megabase just moves, so you still need thousands of assemblers/smelters, they just all have to be legendary now, and we add a zero or two to SPM expectations. Fun for one playthrough I guess.
thats why i´m not sure if i actually want to play the DLC in vanilla or wait for space exploration to catch up. love the complexity and this DLC is still kind of simple compared to SE.
@@Njordin2010from what the Dev has written, SE will need _months_ to release the next version. So I think playing the DLC once or twice in that time won't hurt 😂 Also, if you're bored you can go for the speedrun achievement. That should probably take a week or two of playtime.
That's probably one of the reasons why they added it in the first place Making lategame meaningful by adding very expensive items and making it less frustrating by allowing to use those items to increase UPS
This video made me think about FFF #402 where Rseding talks about how they had to rewrite the crafting logic because the original one was too slow for space age (crafting something couldn't take less than 1/60th of a second, or one tick). I still can't believe how necessary that was and i see nobody talking about it lol
@@SkorjOlafsen Big difference being that these are free to roll. If you had to pay IRL currency for this? Ew. But it's not. In addition, at the scales that Factorio operates at, chance becomes ratios instead.
@@leakingamps2050 Yes, yes, still doesn't feel right though. Mostly because I suspect that the endgame will be more assemblers and BPs doing the quality grind than actual production.
12:00 agree so much with this. People will build megabases that will be "this megabase's whole purpose is to accumulate legendary items so that I can build a real megabase later" In a similar way people have starter bases to get the buildings and modules for their real base, people will be building starter bases into quality farming bases into real megabases
What is insane to me is that your single Red Circuit megastructure out-performs my entire proto-megabase red circuit blueprint, by a good 600/minute. That's 240 machines versus 1.
When dealing with the scale of factorio production, it's less gambling and just becomes a matter of the Law of Large Numbers Think of uranium processing from 1.0 vanilla. Obtaining Active uranium is a sub percent chance. But with having only 4 processors, supporting a nuclear reactor becomes a given. It's not shooting the poop. Without training, the human brain is awful at dealing with probability and statistics. Confounding that is also the human deficiencies in imagining large numbers.
I love how it’s what you said AND if you do want to gamble a bit, just slap quality modules in random parts of your system and you can sometimes get a rare item! Best of both worlds!
The quality system is a really clever way to make very expensive and powerful equipment without having to clutter the UI with "Assembly Machine Mk 7" and the like. It also makes for a more interesting factory design than simply making very expensive recipes, since you have to feed rejects through recyclers.
@@haxney 100%! Part of why I like it so much, aside from the obvious "machine go brrr" aspect lol. I'm not really a fan of mods that add like machine make x, as you said and this is a far better way to do it Id say.
Hmmmm, I wonder what the mk number would be if you arranged the assemblers by speed (all 15 of them) and then assigned them a new mk number based on their position in that line, like would the mk 2 assembler even be second in the list or would you end up having a mk 1 uncommon being a mk 2 in the new list?
considering you first need an Mk1 and then Mk2 assembler to create Mk3 I guess there's no drawback whatsoever at trying to quality them all, however for practical reasons I wouldn't use anything other than Mk3 in actual builds
Quality is one of the most exciting thing for me! It seems nothing like lootboxing, but much more like the startup of uranium processing. Super looking forward to making all kinds of quality producing factories!
Quality is a brilliant concept that gives so many possibilities. It's hard to min-max it, but people need to understand that you don't have to min-max; you wouldn't even want everything in max quality. It's about how do you want to get to quality, what do you want to make out of this, do you just want to set some quality to the side for "special projects", and so on. It's a fantastic concept that can keep you busy for hours on end designing, and even has a pretty nice "reward system".
my inital thought is that it will be best to focus on getting quality quality modules right from when they're unlocked, so when you get round to building a setup to produce quality items, your compound chances are much increased
Personally, I’ve theorized that an ideal early game approach would be to build as normal, but place quality modules in certain high throughput items. For example, in an electronic circuit build, and then filter off the quality while allowing all the normal components to be used as normal. Then there would be no waste via recycling, and some quality items can be used for special use cases without much expense or infrastructure
Definitely a good option! This is what we've been doing up until very late game when we can reasonable make a massive setup do quality from Ore and up.
this is what i did as well. a Few quality plates and gears and circuits can yield some awesome stuff that goes a long way early game. I found that rare rocket launcher and personal solar panels quite useful early.
What I'm think about doing, is using all of those smaller/unused ores scattered around the map, making small "quality farm" outposts for one or more items, and from time to time, go there and get a bunch of quality things to improve the main base. A whole map mall, maybe lol.
Quality is also great for factory components that are used in science. You need yellow inserters in bulk anyway, so you can build a quality hub and send all common ones for red science.
I'm totally fan of quality, simple because every single factory game has the issue where to build big you fps and ups goes to nothing pretty fast. Always been suggesting that those game had a building multiplier, like higher version that require 5x the material, 10x, 100x, so it would still cost the same as building 100, or even more, but it would also make the same as 100 with only 1 building, which would drastically improve fps and ups, and quality kind of does exactly that. One of the reasons that most factory games like factorio or satsfactory always have a mod that make a "super" machine that make 100x of anything
Maybe I am missing something, but with SA we could have one chest that has slots reserved for each ingredient in each quality which also gets fed from recycling. Then a circuit selects the highest-quality recipe for which all quality ingredients are present and sets it as the recipe for the assembler. Non-legendary outputs then get recycled into that chest. That way, we don't need to use multiple splitters and multiple assemblers to differentiate quality. If that build itself has high quality, it should also be incredibly fast while only costing few quality-buildings to place.
Who would call this gambling? on the scale of factorio, a 1% chance means that 1/100 of every item is gonna be a bit more rare, like on such a large scale its not a chance its a constant. Also there are no flashing lights to release dophamine you wont even get addicted to it (ignore the factorio addiction syndrome for a moment)
@@unitazer I've seen quite a few people say they dislike it because they don't like "a gambling mechanic being added to the game". I obviously don't agree lol
Seeing the explanation of building from the ground up made this click a lot more for me. I had thought of it as just adding the same recycle system at the end of each line which is boring, but tracking quality materials at each step is a lot more interesting to me. I probably will actually keep this feature on now (was on the fence before). I kinda like the idea of throwing quality modules on miners at your outposts, sending all regular ore to the traditional factory, then separating out the quality ores to a second base built entirely around quality materials with the end goal being to get and save up legendary materials to choose to build the few legendaries I do want (like maybe turrets for personal use).
I know its not gambling cause with enough throughput chance wont matter as someone in the comments already stated. But thats not ganno stop me from getting a dopamine rush when I see a legendary item
for the quality smelting builds, in addition to using productivity in the legendary-ore smelters, I would suggest using productivity in the epic ore smelters as well. The output of epic and legendary ore is so low that productivity is probably more useful than quality. You'll have plenty of additional chances to roll higher quality products from the epic plate further down the production line, so it's better to use quality in the normal, uncommon and rare ore builds, but use productivity in the epic and legendary builds.
@@camrenw9719 that only applies to assembler-recycler loops for the purpose of outputting only legendary results. What i'm talking about is the value prospect of putting quality modules in furnaces vs productivity modules for the epic ore.
(my argument is, that because plate is a LOW-level item, you'll get plenty of chances to roll for higher quality at later stages, so getting productivity at the smelting stage will yield better results.
@@camrenw9719 Furnaces only get 2 module slots. for epic ore, you effectively have the choice between productivity or quality. If you choose quality, it can only improve a single step (upto legendary, but when it doesn't improve the quality the 87+% of the time, you'll only getting a single epic plate per ore), at the plate level, you'll have multiple chances to IMPROVE that same, single step, but at an assembler step, you can have FOUR module slots. so, in the case of smelting column module decisions...it's better to put 2 productivity modules in the furnaces that are smelting epic ore and put 4 quality modules (or a combination of quality+productivity) in the assemblers that take that epic plate in order to get more quality stuff out of that ore patch.
I like the quality names. It might feel like gambling if you pop in a few modules here and there, but it seems to be deterministic at large scales. Anyway, this is absolutely insane and I can't wait to play around with it.
@@sproins While I'm not a huge fan of the names within the Factorio setting, I totally agree otherwise. It's just probabilities and once you start building big enough, it's not gambling at all, just statistics
Me thinking about how "expensive" it would be to use the free lava on Vulcanus to create a quality base that always recycles normal plates to just spew out giant tons of high quality plates. Then throw the output of foundries into electromagnetic plants to spam modules. I dunno why everyone seems to think quality modules are going to be so expensive. Once you get a basic factory going, I don't think people realize how easy that's going to be to connect some foundries to electromagnetic plants, or how powerful that's going to be. A flat 50% productivity bonus is truly insane. A lot of the trouble of scaling up a megabase is getting enough modules to get just 40% productivity on only some products. Now, we're able to stack 50% productivity on top of literally everything, and use that to bootstrap module production before we even have tier 3 modules unlocked. That's crazy powerful, and it only spirals out of control crazy fast once you add modules and mix in quality.
the expense there comes from the fact that you need three bases to do that. Nauvis (cuz its ur start duh), Fulgora (for recyclers and other quality boosts) and Vulcanus (for the lava you mentioned)
The quality is the one thing I'm the most excited about in the whole Space Age extension! Ever since reading the FFF I've been dreaming about it! I really love the implementation they chose: we need to design systems specifically for quality and they're very different from what we're used to do! Moreover, one thing that is not often mentioned is that this could even lead us to automate things we don't often automate. For example armor or modules! I don't yet know what it changes for those but I'm sure quality will make them great and it'll be very interesting to automate things like that!
"Grab your best lube" (rayguard) 😀 No, fluid does not have quality. About the calculation: I wondered the same, but then remembered: you can't mix quality in the ingredients. So fluids count as the same quality as the ingredients you explicitly chose when selection a recipe.
Minor note there, the quality mod is required mod with Space Age. However you can choose not to research it and then you don't have it in your UI. Some were saying it's because recycler comes from that mod and it's vital machine on Fulgora.
On the FFF that first mentioned these the reception of the quality system was really poor which surprised me but honestly it adds so much depth to the game imo, In a way it's like they added MK2, MK3 versions to everything (aka just upgraded versions of buildings and gear) without even needing to do that and allowing it to be really flexible too.
@@cmdreteri7791 I'd say easily 5-10x what it currently is, for actual pack production. However, we may need to start measuring in ESPM (effective science per minute) because with lab prod researched and 50% built in on the Biolab, even if you're *only* making like 50k packs a minute, you could easily be doing like 100k, 150i spm worth of research cause of lab prod.
I like the idea. Probably not for the whole factory but for spaceships and personal equipment. It makes the need for mods like "better Spidertron", "Better Armor" etc. obsolet and you still need to put some work/automation to get the better stuff. And you always need to balance your factory how much I want to put in quality (slowing down my factory) against normal production.
For me it wasn't the probability-based stuff (it scratches the same itch as Cookie Clicker, for me.), but trying to manage all of the different quality version of the same products. At first I tried just dropping some quality modules into my existing factory, thinking I'd see what this quality thing was all about. That didn't go well, lol. This is exactly what I needed to get me thinking about it the right way - thanks for the tutorial!
Nobody seems to mention that on Vulcanus, you have infinite resources, and lava which you can dump things into. You can set up a factory for say solar panels, filter out the normal ones and throw them into lava. Infinite input -> infinite output.
and in space, you can literally make almost everything from scratch. the only things i've found that you cannot make, are the planet-specific buildings which require being built on their respective planets. forges, and em machines for instance. although, you can still use them on the platform, you just can't make more of them in space. and asteroids are infinite. anything you don't need, you can recycle or throw overboard.
Quality is less like gambling and more like refining. The quality modules would be significantly worse without the recyclers I am so looking forward to working with them.
I did not know that quality worked on ores. Honestly though, I will probably stick to the method he didn't like. Speed/bulk produce like normal, then stamp down a standardized recycling loop at the end product. Start with something you need in very low quantities like oil refineries. Once you get an adequate stockpile, you can then funnel off those higher quality base/intermediate materials into new quality producing setups.
I'll probably do a similar setup just because trying to filter quality from every step looks incredibly tedious although it's certainly an interesting puzzle for sure.
OMG this video makes such a fan for quality My plan right now is to start at mining with quality modules and try to scale my stuff to legendary and if it doesn't hit legendary I will put it into science production
I love the potential of quality. I'm not a megabase player because I find "the sprawl" and outposting tedious tbh but between quality and the interplanetary logistics I might give it a shot this time around as it's far more complex and more involved than just making bigger builds for SPM goals, honestly, never found that an interesting goal that's why I tend to stick to overhauls with various levels of complexity. From what I've seen of stream footage there are defo certain items early on that you would want to prioritise getting quality on, and it mostly seems like personal equipment and space platform buildings. Asteroid collectors get extra arms which is huge and solar panels and accumulators producing and storing more energy is self-explanatory.
I am entirely convinced that sending off "failures" (see: basic items that don't roll +QL) into recyclers is a trap and should be avoided as much as possible. Red Circuits, Electric Furnaces, Processing Units and Speed/Prod 1 Modules I think are especially good candidates for Quality Modules, where the failures can be easily reused for science. +QL Red Circuits are set aside for making +QL Mk2 Modules. +QL Electric Furnaces can be put into your Furnace stacks for extra speed. Failures sent to Production Science +QL Proc Units, like the Red Circuits, set aside for Mk2 Modules, send the failures into Utility Science. +QL Speed/Proc Modules also side aside for Mk2 Modules and failures sent to Prod/Util Science. By the end of it, you've got Uncommon and Rare Mk2 Modules, and you're not destroying nearly 75% of your input in recyclers.
@@Jeff_the_Hobo Yeah, generally I've found that I much prefer to not recycle the failures if at all possible. But tbh, I'm not sure anyone knows the actually best strategy for the whole process until it's used extensively over time.
If you want to produce large quantities of high quality items you have to recycle. I've built a megabase with janky quality mod (quality backport to 1.1), and All the Q2-Q4 modules and assemblers has nowhere to go but being recycled for a second chance of higher quality, otherwise there are just not enough Q5 items
*laughs in fulgoran. seriously, what am i going to do with 200k normal iron plates other than fill my crates? sent it all to the recycler, just for keeping the bulk down.
I am definitely going to play a few runs (after the first vanilla one, of course) where I play with everything being legendary quality from the start of the game just to see how it feels in the early game.
I love the idea of quality for much the same reason you do. I don't really understand why someone would dislike the system personally, but I do think saying "You don't have to use it" isn't quite right. Because we have quality I would assume that some things didn't get a new tier, assembling machines for example (This could be absolutely incorrect) which means for those things to be more efficient you would need to delve into quality. I am very excited to see what people do with quality though, as I think it's easy to make a build that's "head empty" everything is legendary but it will take awhile to determine that this combinations of rarities is half as space efficient but can be built up to in one quarter the time or something similar.
One thing that we all need to remember, that we can actualy skip steps (tiers) by crafting from beter quality components, and this information found in official factorio wiki
I have never seriously thought about making quality items from ore itself. I have played around with a setup for circuits where with EM Plants and quality modules we get our circuit belt. From that belt we get every common circuit and recycle them(full quality modules in recycles), feed it back into EM Plants. With base productivity of it and the stuff we get from recyclers we get quite cheap operating costs. Then we basically recycle every non legendary circuit that we make. Using newly recycled quality raw materials we craft circuits at higher qualities all the way up to legendary.
Really looking forward to this expansion dropping tomorrow. My plan is to quality grind a few key items until I get the recyclers and then start quality grinding. I really like the idea of this mechanism because it gives people more options which means there should be many more interesting designs out of it. Yes it is a stochastic (random) process which is why people say it's like gambling (It's not gambling just because there is randomness any more than the kovarex process as one of the other commenters noted) but having random processes in games is really common and part of the fun, making things less predictable.
I think the quality system is a cool addition. It's like a whole new vertical axis of production (better instead of more.) I only wish the names for quality tiers were less "video gamey" and had better names that fit the engineering of factorio
I like the naming, it is so different from the rest of the game that it's hard to confuse it with anything else, the naming is also intuitive to gamers. Factorio has always been more game than simulator anyway.
@@27klickslegend that is very true. While I personally don't like the naming, I understand why they did it that way. At the end of the day, it really doesn't matter
I think the goal is basically to make quality quality, and to add quality prod to the legendary as you said. As I make more quality quality, add this to beacons, you're unstoppable
For how hard legendaries are to get, they seem pretty balanced. A few days before the beacon rework was announced Kovarex posted a screenshot of a full legendary foundry and electro plant in the Factorio discord that showed the new possible numbers. The electro plant had 20m green chips crafted by itself and the screenshot showed 4 fully stacked turbo belts. I'ts gonna be interesting to see how much more science a non space age base can make with the quality mod, we might start seeing 100k spm or something insane
@@deathfistenjoyer Definitely! Although an important note is that to get quality module 3s you have to go to another planet. So for that you have to do space age stuff. But, you could technically just grind out quality with level 2s, just more slowly. Or... Build even bigger to make up for it!
@@Xterminator I've watched a few of the Nilaus videos, from what Ive seen just having a few uncommon or rare items like solar panels or (more importantly) the asteroid collectors makes a huge difference early on. I learned from my SE playthrough that its really better to start small and wait until you get the fun stuff to scale.
Great video, very helpful. Was wondering though why you would want legendary öre or plates. If the next factory down the line does not use quality modules, what would be the added benefit to feed them quality products?
@@evangold4748 Imagine if legendary concrete would increase the movespeed bonus. wearing legendary exoskeletons and walking on legendary concrete teleporting you across the whole factory with a single tap of a movement key...
I’m looking forward to building a recycling centre to grind up the stuff below the quality I want ;) will be fun to see trainloads of stuff going to the recyclers in a sushi belt.
On the controversy of Quality: I feel it's like using Beacons and Modules. It isn't at all essential to anything, but it can vastly improve builds and efficiency. It's something you can opt in to if you're interested in getting the most out of your builds.
My impression of this is positive overall, because of the rates. To me, it seems like it could have been more disruptive if the chances to get higher qualities were higher. As in, if you had just a bunch of random-quality assemblers, it would potentially make calculating production rates much more difficult. However, because of what the percentage chances are, it makes it less likely to interfere with production rate plans, and more likely to be a sort of rare bonus that varies up play-throughs slightly. Like, in one game you might get mostly normal with five uncommons over the course of the path to the rocket-ship, while in another, you might get an epic assembler very early on, and be relying on it for assembling something like gears or wires well into the late game. It has the potential to add variety, while not spoiling anything.
One thing I've heard other early testers report is that liquid inputs (e.g. iron/steel/copper products from the foundry) don't have a quality value. Therefore, if you're quality grinding anything you can make in foundries (which is probably the right way to do it due to speed and productivity bonuses), then you pretty much have to do quality "top down", not "bottom up" like you're doing here. Factoring in the productivity bonuses for the EM plant and the 8 module slots on the Cryo Plant, it probably makes sense to use them for "top down" quality grinding too.
True, and while you can't get get quality liquids when turning ore into molten ore, you could still do quality basically from the ground up by just starting from the casting step, of turning the molten metal into things like steel, gears, etc and beginning your quality process there. So basically all that would need to be skipped is the morning step for quality
Vulcanus is easy to get a basic setup on though, and from the looks of it a tank with green friendliness pellets is enough to make at least the small worms friendly so you don't need much extra.
Awesome video glad someone shares the same excitement for quality I do, I have a question though. Quality 3 modules are locked on another planet, but what about quality tiers themselves because from my understanding the player is unable to produce anything above uncommon untill they go to other planets. Oh and also this one is out of left field, but is Kovarex still on nauvis or is it on another planet now?
The best setup is possible on Fulgora, recycle junk with quality modules, setup a logistic network in such a way, that if any item exeeds some limit(400), it will be sent to recycler(also with quality mod), dont forget a good amount of a logistic storage This way is quite fast, cause you can get a vast assortment of quality items suitable for assembling almost any quality machine
What a cool setup! Thanks for the ground-up insight! Maybe it was just for demonstration, but I dont think filtration and separation of ores and intermediate products is necessary if you also separate the final products. I think it would actually be better for throughput to not have dedicated legendary furnaces with dedicated legendary rail car slots. If legendary lasers are the objective, I think optimal throughput would just be typical steel/battery/green chips with occasional seeding from up-qualitied components, assuming 1 of 3 uncommon components results in a 33% chance for an uncommon final product, a recycling loop for suboptimals would recoup that 66% and you'd be printing legendary lasers after a few minutes. I think the first 4 quality chips made should go right back into the quality chip assembler, starting that loop seems very important.
The optimal strategy can actually change depending on the stage of the game / what equipment is available, and what you're trying to make. There isn't a one-size-fits-all solution that's always optimal. Some solutions however will always be more logistically challenging, and it's up to you how much that will influence your decision making.
I think one important thing to let people know in quality tutorials is that speed modules seem to decrease quality. I'm not sure if it can downgrade an item, but at least you can't beacon your quality upcycling. As for what might be optimal, I have a feeling having a build that up-cycles everything from the bottom-up would get you the best results, since recycling destroys so much of it it doesn't seem to be worth it for just rerolling the same item. But for simplcity's sake, you'd probably want to just keep recycling the most basic ingredients and then having one legendary production line afterwards...
I will start by put quality everywhere in my mall, and the siphon out the higher quality items to a seperate chest of each item and just slowly let the rng give a few better items. As for endgame a huge quality build seems far more fun than just SPM in my opinion 🎉
Thanks for the vid, this clears up a lot of my confusion about quality as a concept. It seems to be like, if you want nothing but legendary output, your best bet would be to craft and shred everything produced at the base level, destroying almost all of the input but every once in a while managing a legendary base component. From there on out, you can main bus normally because everything made from that point on will be legendary (assuming you have nothing but legendary components). Obviously, transport belts should be normal quality because there's no point to waste resources on that. I'm also not sure it'll be worth it to have legendary science, but we'll see. Lastly, that 9000/minute setup IS hilarious, but man, t3 belts are still the biggest, and they don't move goods that fast XD Do you just do nothing but inserter ==> box ==> inserter ==> box all the way down the line? I don't think my foundry, whenever I get there, is going to be that insane lol. Oh well. I probably won't touch Quality Modules until I get to the T3 modules given what I'm seeing here. The requirements are a bit too insane.
Glad it helped clear up most of your confusion! And yeah I think trying to get legendary from the ground up, ingredient wise is definitely one of the better methods. In terms of resources movement at those volumes, what I've seen work the best is direct from train production. So you make your late game builds in a way where a train pulls into them the inserter's can pull straight from wagon => box => machine. Although, with green belt (t4) from Vulcanus, and item stacking on it, one of those belts can move like 14,400 items per minute.
im only at early game but i put quality modules almost to everything. (i avoid stuff that only gives you more entity health as it adds only complexity that you dont need) For example on the production of green and red circuits, plates, and so on. Or for the pre-requisites for science packs. I get a steady flow of random quality stuff. I just put a splitter on the end of the production line to filter out the quality stuff and show it into a box. Every once in a while i gather it up and shove it into an assembler with the best quality modules i have and craft something good that will last. A few quality plates and circuits can make you some nice stuff early. Like a rare rocket launcher for example. Or rare personal solar panels. Until you unlock fulgora or Vulcanus it is just nice to have and not something you should overly worried about. at least so i think
I think this is a good abstraction of quality in real life. There is necessarily some variability in manufacturing. Maybe some materials are more pure, some intermediaries having less defects, or the final product having higher precision. Good thing we don’t have a “defective” quality. That would be evil.
What is amazing is going to be the Megabase potential with optimisation with the quality. we are going to save so much ups to be able to have crazy SPM output even witth vanilla.
99% of engineer quit right before getting a legendary item
People saying quality is gambling don´t understand the concept. It is the same as with the kovarex enrichment. When you increase the throughput the chance does not matter.
Its also a hard ratio that you can see, and the numbers you produce of goods means you are guaranteed to get what you want eventually
True, in gambling you can lose, here you're guaranteed to get a value parity at the very least. Integrating quality modules at every step, and then using normal quality items for items that don't benefit from quality (belts, rockets, foundations) seems like an efficient strategy at the time.
I know, some people are just..... too stupid.
I also understand its not gambling but seeing that orange tag is ganno give me a dopamine rush everytime
exactly, gambling, my ass. rng, yes, some despise it passionately, but gambling is entirely another damn thing.
Gambling at scale is just statistics.
@@JoeTaber Exactly!
When the house doesn't have its thumb on the scales yes it is.
@@Xterminator btw, the proper term for the idea you were describing at 12:00 is "The law of large numbers". You are total right in how once you understand that concept, you can safely stop viewing quality as a percentage thing and start viewing it as a fixed ratio. I.E., if you are producing 10 items/min with 10% quality, you can say that you are producing 1 item/min of the next highest quality 0.1 items/min of the second next, etc.
It's normal that not everyone will like the quality modules. It's quite uncommon to find people who love everything - rare, even. But in my opinion, this new aspect of the game is epic. That's exactly what you'd expect from the legendary developer, Wube.
Nice!
@@disskuss4268 this comment is just as nice as the 69 hundred iron gears per minute
I see what you did there
under-rated comment. IMHO, deserves a pin.
@@disskuss4268 The puns are overwhelming, but quality nonetheless!
I love that quality is system that encourages you to build more complex setups instead of just bigger factories. I always preferred mods that increase the complexity instead of trying to build a megabase with x science per minute. Can't wait for Monday
Omg same the answer isn’t just “make more of the same” anymore and I love that so much
@@wigoow1206 Same, it adds a nice mix of both in my opinion! You need to build things differently and perhaps more complex but also bigger too to get it to work well
Yeah, so when you have basically the same recycling concept to make every kind of legendary item, that totally won't be "more of the same". Maybe a challenge to figure out how to make half the items with a single parameterized BP? And then the bar for a megabase just moves, so you still need thousands of assemblers/smelters, they just all have to be legendary now, and we add a zero or two to SPM expectations. Fun for one playthrough I guess.
thats why i´m not sure if i actually want to play the DLC in vanilla or wait for space exploration to catch up. love the complexity and this DLC is still kind of simple compared to SE.
@@Njordin2010from what the Dev has written, SE will need _months_ to release the next version. So I think playing the DLC once or twice in that time won't hurt 😂
Also, if you're bored you can go for the speedrun achievement. That should probably take a week or two of playtime.
I think Quality will be awesome for UPS the fact that you can cut down on the number of entities and still have high production is awesome.
That's probably one of the reasons why they added it in the first place
Making lategame meaningful by adding very expensive items and making it less frustrating by allowing to use those items to increase UPS
This video made me think about FFF #402 where Rseding talks about how they had to rewrite the crafting logic because the original one was too slow for space age (crafting something couldn't take less than 1/60th of a second, or one tick).
I still can't believe how necessary that was and i see nobody talking about it lol
Omg that’s amazing
Shoutouts to Simpleflips
Lets go *-GAMBLING!-* stacking all variables in our odds through clever preparation.
Aw dangit
100-pull gachas! Cobine 5 rare waifus to make a legendary waifu! Yeah, pardon me for my lack of enthusiasm.
@@SkorjOlafsen Big difference being that these are free to roll. If you had to pay IRL currency for this? Ew. But it's not. In addition, at the scales that Factorio operates at, chance becomes ratios instead.
@@leakingamps2050 Yes, yes, still doesn't feel right though. Mostly because I suspect that the endgame will be more assemblers and BPs doing the quality grind than actual production.
@@SkorjOlafsen In principle, I don't see why you couldn't tear down such a blueprint and put it back up according to need
12:00 agree so much with this. People will build megabases that will be "this megabase's whole purpose is to accumulate legendary items so that I can build a real megabase later" In a similar way people have starter bases to get the buildings and modules for their real base, people will be building starter bases into quality farming bases into real megabases
What is insane to me is that your single Red Circuit megastructure out-performs my entire proto-megabase red circuit blueprint, by a good 600/minute. That's 240 machines versus 1.
When dealing with the scale of factorio production, it's less gambling and just becomes a matter of the Law of Large Numbers
Think of uranium processing from 1.0 vanilla. Obtaining Active uranium is a sub percent chance. But with having only 4 processors, supporting a nuclear reactor becomes a given. It's not shooting the poop.
Without training, the human brain is awful at dealing with probability and statistics. Confounding that is also the human deficiencies in imagining large numbers.
I love how it’s what you said AND if you do want to gamble a bit, just slap quality modules in random parts of your system and you can sometimes get a rare item! Best of both worlds!
The quality system is a really clever way to make very expensive and powerful equipment without having to clutter the UI with "Assembly Machine Mk 7" and the like. It also makes for a more interesting factory design than simply making very expensive recipes, since you have to feed rejects through recyclers.
@@haxney 100%! Part of why I like it so much, aside from the obvious "machine go brrr" aspect lol. I'm not really a fan of mods that add like machine make x, as you said and this is a far better way to do it Id say.
Hmmmm, I wonder what the mk number would be if you arranged the assemblers by speed (all 15 of them) and then assigned them a new mk number based on their position in that line, like would the mk 2 assembler even be second in the list or would you end up having a mk 1 uncommon being a mk 2 in the new list?
@@cyberkraken1606
Gemini output ;)
Crafting Speed Assembler Tier Quality Tier
0.5 Mk1 Normal
0.65 Mk1 Uncommon
0.75 Mk2 Normal
0.8 Mk1 Rare
0.95 Mk1 Epic
0.975 Mk2 Uncommon
1.2 Mk2 Rare
1.25 Mk1 Legendary
1.25 Mk3 Normal
1.425 Mk2 Epic
1.625 Mk3 Uncommon
1.875 Mk2 Legendary
2 Mk3 Rare
2.375 Mk3 Epic
3.125 Mk3 Legendary
considering you first need an Mk1 and then Mk2 assembler to create Mk3 I guess there's no drawback whatsoever at trying to quality them all, however for practical reasons I wouldn't use anything other than Mk3 in actual builds
I wouldn't put you in a recycler, you're as legendary as it gets.
I'm already planning in my head how to craft legendary weapons and assemblers and so on.
The factory must grow and be faster!
@@Yorashy Ludicrous Speed!
Quality is one of the most exciting thing for me! It seems nothing like lootboxing, but much more like the startup of uranium processing. Super looking forward to making all kinds of quality producing factories!
Exactly! but it also CAN be like gambling if you only put one or two quality modules in a system! A little bit of excitement and chance!
This is exactly how I feel! Setting up kovarex is one of the most satisfying things for me (cannot explain why 😅) so I am super excited for quality!
The easiest way to switch assemblers on and off for demonstration purposes is the often forgotten power switch.
8:35 "You can check in-game for yourself"
*Are you sure about that?*
lol
Quality is a brilliant concept that gives so many possibilities. It's hard to min-max it, but people need to understand that you don't have to min-max; you wouldn't even want everything in max quality. It's about how do you want to get to quality, what do you want to make out of this, do you just want to set some quality to the side for "special projects", and so on. It's a fantastic concept that can keep you busy for hours on end designing, and even has a pretty nice "reward system".
my inital thought is that it will be best to focus on getting quality quality modules right from when they're unlocked, so when you get round to building a setup to produce quality items, your compound chances are much increased
Yessss
@@hengrv Yup definitely a good thing to be grinding away asap!
Personally, I’ve theorized that an ideal early game approach would be to build as normal, but place quality modules in certain high throughput items. For example, in an electronic circuit build, and then filter off the quality while allowing all the normal components to be used as normal. Then there would be no waste via recycling, and some quality items can be used for special use cases without much expense or infrastructure
Definitely a good option! This is what we've been doing up until very late game when we can reasonable make a massive setup do quality from Ore and up.
this is what i did as well. a Few quality plates and gears and circuits can yield some awesome stuff that goes a long way early game. I found that rare rocket launcher and personal solar panels quite useful early.
What I'm think about doing, is using all of those smaller/unused ores scattered around the map, making small "quality farm" outposts for one or more items, and from time to time, go there and get a bunch of quality things to improve the main base.
A whole map mall, maybe lol.
This mechanic will give us the craziest video of Dosh.
Quality is also great for factory components that are used in science. You need yellow inserters in bulk anyway, so you can build a quality hub and send all common ones for red science.
I think this is the first video that really opened my eyes to just how massive this feature is... my word, I can't wait to get suck into this.
I already know quality was powerful but the gear demonstration blew my mind
I'm totally fan of quality, simple because every single factory game has the issue where to build big you fps and ups goes to nothing pretty fast.
Always been suggesting that those game had a building multiplier, like higher version that require 5x the material, 10x, 100x, so it would still cost the same as building 100, or even more, but it would also make the same as 100 with only 1 building, which would drastically improve fps and ups, and quality kind of does exactly that.
One of the reasons that most factory games like factorio or satsfactory always have a mod that make a "super" machine that make 100x of anything
Maybe I am missing something, but with SA we could have one chest that has slots reserved for each ingredient in each quality which also gets fed from recycling. Then a circuit selects the highest-quality recipe for which all quality ingredients are present and sets it as the recipe for the assembler. Non-legendary outputs then get recycled into that chest. That way, we don't need to use multiple splitters and multiple assemblers to differentiate quality. If that build itself has high quality, it should also be incredibly fast while only costing few quality-buildings to place.
Who would call this gambling? on the scale of factorio, a 1% chance means that 1/100 of every item is gonna be a bit more rare, like on such a large scale its not a chance its a constant. Also there are no flashing lights to release dophamine you wont even get addicted to it (ignore the factorio addiction syndrome for a moment)
@@unitazer I've seen quite a few people say they dislike it because they don't like "a gambling mechanic being added to the game". I obviously don't agree lol
Are you saying that the 5 orange dots in the corner of the item icon aren't enough of a flashing light to release dopamine?
I just started playing factorio this week and i genuinely think i started playing at one of the best times possible
Seeing the explanation of building from the ground up made this click a lot more for me. I had thought of it as just adding the same recycle system at the end of each line which is boring, but tracking quality materials at each step is a lot more interesting to me. I probably will actually keep this feature on now (was on the fence before). I kinda like the idea of throwing quality modules on miners at your outposts, sending all regular ore to the traditional factory, then separating out the quality ores to a second base built entirely around quality materials with the end goal being to get and save up legendary materials to choose to build the few legendaries I do want (like maybe turrets for personal use).
I know its not gambling cause with enough throughput chance wont matter as someone in the comments already stated.
But thats not ganno stop me from getting a dopamine rush when I see a legendary item
I 100% feel the same way. I got the same with early game uranium processing, just such a nice feeling to see those glowy greens pop up!
Law of big numbers
for the quality smelting builds, in addition to using productivity in the legendary-ore smelters, I would suggest using productivity in the epic ore smelters as well. The output of epic and legendary ore is so low that productivity is probably more useful than quality. You'll have plenty of additional chances to roll higher quality products from the epic plate further down the production line, so it's better to use quality in the normal, uncommon and rare ore builds, but use productivity in the epic and legendary builds.
There's a section on the quality page of the wiki that talks about that. "if quality strength >x - use quality,
@@camrenw9719 that only applies to assembler-recycler loops for the purpose of outputting only legendary results.
What i'm talking about is the value prospect of putting quality modules in furnaces vs productivity modules for the epic ore.
(my argument is, that because plate is a LOW-level item, you'll get plenty of chances to roll for higher quality at later stages, so getting productivity at the smelting stage will yield better results.
@@camrenw9719 Furnaces only get 2 module slots. for epic ore, you effectively have the choice between productivity or quality. If you choose quality, it can only improve a single step (upto legendary, but when it doesn't improve the quality the 87+% of the time, you'll only getting a single epic plate per ore), at the plate level, you'll have multiple chances to IMPROVE that same, single step, but at an assembler step, you can have FOUR module slots. so, in the case of smelting column module decisions...it's better to put 2 productivity modules in the furnaces that are smelting epic ore and put 4 quality modules (or a combination of quality+productivity) in the assemblers that take that epic plate in order to get more quality stuff out of that ore patch.
@@camrenw9719 for normal, uncommon, and rare, put quality modules when processing those ores. But for epic and legendary, use prod modules.
I like the quality names. It might feel like gambling if you pop in a few modules here and there, but it seems to be deterministic at large scales.
Anyway, this is absolutely insane and I can't wait to play around with it.
@@sproins While I'm not a huge fan of the names within the Factorio setting, I totally agree otherwise. It's just probabilities and once you start building big enough, it's not gambling at all, just statistics
Me thinking about how "expensive" it would be to use the free lava on Vulcanus to create a quality base that always recycles normal plates to just spew out giant tons of high quality plates. Then throw the output of foundries into electromagnetic plants to spam modules. I dunno why everyone seems to think quality modules are going to be so expensive.
Once you get a basic factory going, I don't think people realize how easy that's going to be to connect some foundries to electromagnetic plants, or how powerful that's going to be. A flat 50% productivity bonus is truly insane. A lot of the trouble of scaling up a megabase is getting enough modules to get just 40% productivity on only some products. Now, we're able to stack 50% productivity on top of literally everything, and use that to bootstrap module production before we even have tier 3 modules unlocked. That's crazy powerful, and it only spirals out of control crazy fast once you add modules and mix in quality.
the expense there comes from the fact that you need three bases to do that. Nauvis (cuz its ur start duh), Fulgora (for recyclers and other quality boosts) and Vulcanus (for the lava you mentioned)
The quality is the one thing I'm the most excited about in the whole Space Age extension! Ever since reading the FFF I've been dreaming about it! I really love the implementation they chose: we need to design systems specifically for quality and they're very different from what we're used to do!
Moreover, one thing that is not often mentioned is that this could even lead us to automate things we don't often automate. For example armor or modules! I don't yet know what it changes for those but I'm sure quality will make them great and it'll be very interesting to automate things like that!
Do fluids have quality? Do they count as normal when figuring out the minimum quality of a product?
"Grab your best lube" (rayguard) 😀
No, fluid does not have quality.
About the calculation: I wondered the same, but then remembered:
you can't mix quality in the ingredients. So fluids count as the same quality as the ingredients you explicitly chose when selection a recipe.
Minor note there, the quality mod is required mod with Space Age. However you can choose not to research it and then you don't have it in your UI. Some were saying it's because recycler comes from that mod and it's vital machine on Fulgora.
@@seonteeaika Hmm I'm 99% sure that is not the case. But I will double check now that you mention it
On the FFF that first mentioned these the reception of the quality system was really poor which surprised me but honestly it adds so much depth to the game imo, In a way it's like they added MK2, MK3 versions to everything (aka just upgraded versions of buildings and gear) without even needing to do that and allowing it to be really flexible too.
That production is truly mind blowing. I wonder just how high the limits of megabase SPM will go?
i think the devs at some point said that they wanted a MILLION spm to be possible
@@cmdreteri7791 I'd say easily 5-10x what it currently is, for actual pack production. However, we may need to start measuring in ESPM (effective science per minute) because with lab prod researched and 50% built in on the Biolab, even if you're *only* making like 50k packs a minute, you could easily be doing like 100k, 150i spm worth of research cause of lab prod.
I like the idea. Probably not for the whole factory but for spaceships and personal equipment. It makes the need for mods like "better Spidertron", "Better Armor" etc. obsolet and you still need to put some work/automation to get the better stuff. And you always need to balance your factory how much I want to put in quality (slowing down my factory) against normal production.
For me it wasn't the probability-based stuff (it scratches the same itch as Cookie Clicker, for me.), but trying to manage all of the different quality version of the same products. At first I tried just dropping some quality modules into my existing factory, thinking I'd see what this quality thing was all about. That didn't go well, lol. This is exactly what I needed to get me thinking about it the right way - thanks for the tutorial!
Nobody seems to mention that on Vulcanus, you have infinite resources, and lava which you can dump things into. You can set up a factory for say solar panels, filter out the normal ones and throw them into lava. Infinite input -> infinite output.
and in space, you can literally make almost everything from scratch. the only things i've found that you cannot make, are the planet-specific buildings which require being built on their respective planets. forges, and em machines for instance. although, you can still use them on the platform, you just can't make more of them in space.
and asteroids are infinite. anything you don't need, you can recycle or throw overboard.
I was blank on quality before this video. Now I am with knowledge!
Quality is less like gambling and more like refining.
The quality modules would be significantly worse without the recyclers
I am so looking forward to working with them.
I did not know that quality worked on ores. Honestly though, I will probably stick to the method he didn't like. Speed/bulk produce like normal, then stamp down a standardized recycling loop at the end product. Start with something you need in very low quantities like oil refineries. Once you get an adequate stockpile, you can then funnel off those higher quality base/intermediate materials into new quality producing setups.
@@Erik_Ice_Fang Totally fair and viable! I'm honestly not sure what method is better at this point, or if one even is strictly better than another tbh
I'll probably do a similar setup just because trying to filter quality from every step looks incredibly tedious although it's certainly an interesting puzzle for sure.
@@Xterminator now that I think about it though, your method would be the best if a player decides to wait a significant period before going to Fulgora
OMG this video makes such a fan for quality
My plan right now is to start at mining with quality modules and try to scale my stuff to legendary and if it doesn't hit legendary I will put it into science production
I love the potential of quality. I'm not a megabase player because I find "the sprawl" and outposting tedious tbh but between quality and the interplanetary logistics I might give it a shot this time around as it's far more complex and more involved than just making bigger builds for SPM goals, honestly, never found that an interesting goal that's why I tend to stick to overhauls with various levels of complexity.
From what I've seen of stream footage there are defo certain items early on that you would want to prioritise getting quality on, and it mostly seems like personal equipment and space platform buildings. Asteroid collectors get extra arms which is huge and solar panels and accumulators producing and storing more energy is self-explanatory.
The new quality thing is epic, and it is so easy to ignore completely; well done.
I am entirely convinced that sending off "failures" (see: basic items that don't roll +QL) into recyclers is a trap and should be avoided as much as possible.
Red Circuits, Electric Furnaces, Processing Units and Speed/Prod 1 Modules I think are especially good candidates for Quality Modules, where the failures can be easily reused for science.
+QL Red Circuits are set aside for making +QL Mk2 Modules.
+QL Electric Furnaces can be put into your Furnace stacks for extra speed. Failures sent to Production Science
+QL Proc Units, like the Red Circuits, set aside for Mk2 Modules, send the failures into Utility Science.
+QL Speed/Proc Modules also side aside for Mk2 Modules and failures sent to Prod/Util Science.
By the end of it, you've got Uncommon and Rare Mk2 Modules, and you're not destroying nearly 75% of your input in recyclers.
@@Jeff_the_Hobo Yeah, generally I've found that I much prefer to not recycle the failures if at all possible. But tbh, I'm not sure anyone knows the actually best strategy for the whole process until it's used extensively over time.
If you want to produce large quantities of high quality items you have to recycle. I've built a megabase with janky quality mod (quality backport to 1.1), and All the Q2-Q4 modules and assemblers has nowhere to go but being recycled for a second chance of higher quality, otherwise there are just not enough Q5 items
*laughs in fulgoran.
seriously, what am i going to do with 200k normal iron plates other than fill my crates? sent it all to the recycler, just for keeping the bulk down.
I love quality so much i jsut unlocked it and when my blue setup is ready i start to dive into it!
I am definitely going to play a few runs (after the first vanilla one, of course) where I play with everything being legendary quality from the start of the game just to see how it feels in the early game.
I love the idea of quality for much the same reason you do. I don't really understand why someone would dislike the system personally, but I do think saying "You don't have to use it" isn't quite right. Because we have quality I would assume that some things didn't get a new tier, assembling machines for example (This could be absolutely incorrect) which means for those things to be more efficient you would need to delve into quality. I am very excited to see what people do with quality though, as I think it's easy to make a build that's "head empty" everything is legendary but it will take awhile to determine that this combinations of rarities is half as space efficient but can be built up to in one quarter the time or something similar.
One thing that we all need to remember, that we can actualy skip steps (tiers) by crafting from beter quality components, and this information found in official factorio wiki
I have never seriously thought about making quality items from ore itself. I have played around with a setup for circuits where with EM Plants and quality modules we get our circuit belt. From that belt we get every common circuit and recycle them(full quality modules in recycles), feed it back into EM Plants. With base productivity of it and the stuff we get from recyclers we get quite cheap operating costs. Then we basically recycle every non legendary circuit that we make. Using newly recycled quality raw materials we craft circuits at higher qualities all the way up to legendary.
Quality is quite the rabbit hole to go down lol.
I like the ground up method. I didnt think about putting quality modules in my big ore miners.
Really looking forward to this expansion dropping tomorrow. My plan is to quality grind a few key items until I get the recyclers and then start quality grinding. I really like the idea of this mechanism because it gives people more options which means there should be many more interesting designs out of it. Yes it is a stochastic (random) process which is why people say it's like gambling (It's not gambling just because there is randomness any more than the kovarex process as one of the other commenters noted) but having random processes in games is really common and part of the fun, making things less predictable.
quality is probably necessary for UPS in the long run with all the surfaces they have now: Gleba, nauvis, fulgora etc
I think the quality system is a cool addition. It's like a whole new vertical axis of production (better instead of more.) I only wish the names for quality tiers were less "video gamey" and had better names that fit the engineering of factorio
I like the naming, it is so different from the rest of the game that it's hard to confuse it with anything else, the naming is also intuitive to gamers. Factorio has always been more game than simulator anyway.
@@27klickslegend that is very true. While I personally don't like the naming, I understand why they did it that way. At the end of the day, it really doesn't matter
Love this. It's nice to have a new challenge to build for.
Quality Ore? That is hilarious. I did not expect that to be a thing that existed.
For mega bases being able to condense your production lines from like 6 plus machines to 1 is insane for maintaining TPS at scale.
I think the goal is basically to make quality quality, and to add quality prod to the legendary as you said. As I make more quality quality, add this to beacons, you're unstoppable
For how hard legendaries are to get, they seem pretty balanced. A few days before the beacon rework was announced Kovarex posted a screenshot of a full legendary foundry and electro plant in the Factorio discord that showed the new possible numbers. The electro plant had 20m green chips crafted by itself and the screenshot showed 4 fully stacked turbo belts. I'ts gonna be interesting to see how much more science a non space age base can make with the quality mod, we might start seeing 100k spm or something insane
@@deathfistenjoyer Definitely! Although an important note is that to get quality module 3s you have to go to another planet. So for that you have to do space age stuff. But, you could technically just grind out quality with level 2s, just more slowly. Or... Build even bigger to make up for it!
@@Xterminator I've watched a few of the Nilaus videos, from what Ive seen just having a few uncommon or rare items like solar panels or (more importantly) the asteroid collectors makes a huge difference early on. I learned from my SE playthrough that its really better to start small and wait until you get the fun stuff to scale.
Great video, very helpful. Was wondering though why you would want legendary öre or plates. If the next factory down the line does not use quality modules, what would be the added benefit to feed them quality products?
Megabases are going to take on a whole meaning with the building and recycling of materials.
If your factory isn't all Legendaries, is it even a factory?
If your factory above 60UPS its a starter base
and i don't wanna see even a single belt that's only epic!
Is it really a mega base if the floor isn’t made out of legendary reinforced concrete?
@@evangold4748 i hope there is no such thing as legendary concrete, but it would be hilarious.
@@evangold4748 Imagine if legendary concrete would increase the movespeed bonus. wearing legendary exoskeletons and walking on legendary concrete teleporting you across the whole factory with a single tap of a movement key...
I’m looking forward to building a recycling centre to grind up the stuff below the quality I want ;) will be fun to see trainloads of stuff going to the recyclers in a sushi belt.
On the controversy of Quality: I feel it's like using Beacons and Modules.
It isn't at all essential to anything, but it can vastly improve builds and efficiency. It's something you can opt in to if you're interested in getting the most out of your builds.
My impression of this is positive overall, because of the rates. To me, it seems like it could have been more disruptive if the chances to get higher qualities were higher. As in, if you had just a bunch of random-quality assemblers, it would potentially make calculating production rates much more difficult. However, because of what the percentage chances are, it makes it less likely to interfere with production rate plans, and more likely to be a sort of rare bonus that varies up play-throughs slightly. Like, in one game you might get mostly normal with five uncommons over the course of the path to the rocket-ship, while in another, you might get an epic assembler very early on, and be relying on it for assembling something like gears or wires well into the late game. It has the potential to add variety, while not spoiling anything.
One thing I've heard other early testers report is that liquid inputs (e.g. iron/steel/copper products from the foundry) don't have a quality value. Therefore, if you're quality grinding anything you can make in foundries (which is probably the right way to do it due to speed and productivity bonuses), then you pretty much have to do quality "top down", not "bottom up" like you're doing here.
Factoring in the productivity bonuses for the EM plant and the 8 module slots on the Cryo Plant, it probably makes sense to use them for "top down" quality grinding too.
True, and while you can't get get quality liquids when turning ore into molten ore, you could still do quality basically from the ground up by just starting from the casting step, of turning the molten metal into things like steel, gears, etc and beginning your quality process there.
So basically all that would need to be skipped is the morning step for quality
This is so awesome. I'm having tons of fun with this update.
Glad to hear it! It's a ton of fun for sure :D
Factory must grow. Not only horizontally but vertically also
Quality is thing that i was missing in that game, it adds depth to the whole game, and i cant wait to get elevated rails :)
Quality is why I I chose Fulgora to be my 1st planet. The plan is to set up some rare production that will carry me all the way to Aquilo.
Vulcanus is easy to get a basic setup on though, and from the looks of it a tank with green friendliness pellets is enough to make at least the small worms friendly so you don't need much extra.
This will be fantastic for all the Direct insert blueprints where the ratios just don't match.
Mega base just got more UPS friendly.
my head is spinning thinking about the legendary mega factories
Legendary artillery will go wild
Awesome video glad someone shares the same excitement for quality I do, I have a question though. Quality 3 modules are locked on another planet, but what about quality tiers themselves because from my understanding the player is unable to produce anything above uncommon untill they go to other planets. Oh and also this one is out of left field, but is Kovarex still on nauvis or is it on another planet now?
For anyone focusing on Quality when Space Age comes out, the binomial distribution will be your friend.
The best setup is possible on Fulgora, recycle junk with quality modules, setup a logistic network in such a way, that if any item exeeds some limit(400), it will be sent to recycler(also with quality mod), dont forget a good amount of a logistic storage
This way is quite fast, cause you can get a vast assortment of quality items suitable for assembling almost any quality machine
Hell yeah the more item and more addicted to it
This whole thing is legendary
What a cool setup! Thanks for the ground-up insight! Maybe it was just for demonstration, but I dont think filtration and separation of ores and intermediate products is necessary if you also separate the final products. I think it would actually be better for throughput to not have dedicated legendary furnaces with dedicated legendary rail car slots. If legendary lasers are the objective, I think optimal throughput would just be typical steel/battery/green chips with occasional seeding from up-qualitied components, assuming 1 of 3 uncommon components results in a 33% chance for an uncommon final product, a recycling loop for suboptimals would recoup that 66% and you'd be printing legendary lasers after a few minutes. I think the first 4 quality chips made should go right back into the quality chip assembler, starting that loop seems very important.
The optimal strategy can actually change depending on the stage of the game / what equipment is available, and what you're trying to make. There isn't a one-size-fits-all solution that's always optimal. Some solutions however will always be more logistically challenging, and it's up to you how much that will influence your decision making.
I think one important thing to let people know in quality tutorials is that speed modules seem to decrease quality. I'm not sure if it can downgrade an item, but at least you can't beacon your quality upcycling.
As for what might be optimal, I have a feeling having a build that up-cycles everything from the bottom-up would get you the best results, since recycling destroys so much of it it doesn't seem to be worth it for just rerolling the same item. But for simplcity's sake, you'd probably want to just keep recycling the most basic ingredients and then having one legendary production line afterwards...
When i figured out a full blue belt of steel from 6 machines in total was crazy 🤣
Incredible video, but do you have the blueprint for this iron plate system?
And now you''ll be able to make 1 million spm bases without ups loss. Kinda exited to get there.
Thanks, this is exactly what I need while waiting for the release.
I will start by put quality everywhere in my mall, and the siphon out the higher quality items to a seperate chest of each item and just slowly let the rng give a few better items. As for endgame a huge quality build seems far more fun than just SPM in my opinion 🎉
yeah i totally agree, it's basically a regression to the mean
Cant wait to see how far megabases will go thank to all this saved UPS
2 weeks after this video, man i love quality
I'm so excited for quality.
Thanks for the vid, this clears up a lot of my confusion about quality as a concept.
It seems to be like, if you want nothing but legendary output, your best bet would be to craft and shred everything produced at the base level, destroying almost all of the input but every once in a while managing a legendary base component. From there on out, you can main bus normally because everything made from that point on will be legendary (assuming you have nothing but legendary components).
Obviously, transport belts should be normal quality because there's no point to waste resources on that. I'm also not sure it'll be worth it to have legendary science, but we'll see.
Lastly, that 9000/minute setup IS hilarious, but man, t3 belts are still the biggest, and they don't move goods that fast XD Do you just do nothing but inserter ==> box ==> inserter ==> box all the way down the line? I don't think my foundry, whenever I get there, is going to be that insane lol.
Oh well. I probably won't touch Quality Modules until I get to the T3 modules given what I'm seeing here. The requirements are a bit too insane.
Glad it helped clear up most of your confusion!
And yeah I think trying to get legendary from the ground up, ingredient wise is definitely one of the better methods.
In terms of resources movement at those volumes, what I've seen work the best is direct from train production. So you make your late game builds in a way where a train pulls into them the inserter's can pull straight from wagon => box => machine.
Although, with green belt (t4) from Vulcanus, and item stacking on it, one of those belts can move like 14,400 items per minute.
We are going to see bases producing millions of science a minute.
im only at early game but i put quality modules almost to everything. (i avoid stuff that only gives you more entity health as it adds only complexity that you dont need) For example on the production of green and red circuits, plates, and so on. Or for the pre-requisites for science packs. I get a steady flow of random quality stuff. I just put a splitter on the end of the production line to filter out the quality stuff and show it into a box. Every once in a while i gather it up and shove it into an assembler with the best quality modules i have and craft something good that will last. A few quality plates and circuits can make you some nice stuff early. Like a rare rocket launcher for example. Or rare personal solar panels.
Until you unlock fulgora or Vulcanus it is just nice to have and not something you should overly worried about. at least so i think
Thinking I'll use quality on my 2nd playthrough of space age
I think this is a good abstraction of quality in real life. There is necessarily some variability in manufacturing. Maybe some materials are more pure, some intermediaries having less defects, or the final product having higher precision. Good thing we don’t have a “defective” quality. That would be evil.
I see the quality system as motivating interesting builds with the new selector combinator.
@@dehb1ue Absolutely!
What is amazing is going to be the Megabase potential with optimisation with the quality. we are going to save so much ups to be able to have crazy SPM output even witth vanilla.