Other people have pointed out: even the cave troll is shown to be a slave, enraged and dangerous but also confused and in pain. Its last moments are it trying to examine its wounds and understand what’s happening to it. The cave troll had more characterization than about half of the characters in RoP.
Man, the death of the cave troll in Moria always makes me a little bit sad. The way he touches his lip for a second just makes it seem so child-like. You can kind of tell that maybe it's acting out of instinct, and/or coercion, and doesn't have the mental capacity to comprehend it's actions fully.
I wish this wasn't true, but it is. Random cavetrolls in Lord of the rings does seem to have more thoughts put into their character than most "main characters" in Rings of Profit.
It’s so well done. The cave troll is a slave bred for war, a pit bull type creature who’s instinct tells him to kill. I find it similar to the war elephants scene in Alexander, or master blasters death in Thunderdome, seeing them die brings great victory to the heroes but also is sad to see.
Another subtle detail in LOTR: Legolas' progression of choosing where and when to shoot the troll. He first shoots him in the chest which does minimal damage. Next he tries 2 arrows at a time which stops him for a second but is ultimately not too effective. He then hops on the troll's shoulders and tries to shoot one through the skull but it bounces off. At this point he realizes the troll's only true weakpoint, so he stays patient and waits for Pippen and Merry to make it rear its head back and puts a well placed arrow in the roof of its mouth through the brain for the kill. It's a natural progression of Legolas' thought process and it's so well-done, you don't even think about it unless you rewatch multiple times.
Whenever writers try to write strong female characters, they just end up being everything they supposedly hate about so-called "toxic masculinity": arrogant, haughty, stoic, careless, ruthless, brutal, unfeeling, and selfish. Watching that first scene in LotR just demonstrates how fight scenes aren't a break from character development.
That's because they don't have any problems with all the traits they label as "toxic masculinity." They just have a problem with MEN having them. They view masculinity as inherently strong and femininity as weak, which is why they make their women "masculine" and their men "feminine." It's all a power play for feminists, and that power play is about flipping the tables.
as bruce lee once said, "a fight scene should be like a small play". it should be just two or more people punching each other. there should be a small story in a fight scene.
Its actually them writing female characters as the caricatures of male characters they have in their mind. While the actual male characters of LOTR are flawed, complex, and need to support each other to win battles and keep moving forward on their quest.
Don’t forget that it took the Fellowship their combined strength and effort to take down that cave troll. GuyLadriel on the other hand killed the snow troll on her own under 10 seconds. Not to mention that the other elves, who were supposed to be battle hardened war veterans from the War of Wrath, couldn’t even scratch it. The fricking hobbits were more useful than the most powerful and skilled warriors in Middle Earth!
Thats exactly what I was thinking! The cave troll was a true danger for the fellowship. The troll in rings of power on the other hand was just there to show how cOoL galadriel is.
Galadriel's battle with the Ice Troll takes place thousands of years after the War of Wrath. There's no guarantee that those elves that followed her were even around during the First Age. They might have been young and inexperienced elves compared to her.
Not to mention the cave troll fight, which teaches the fellowship that they can all work together to defeat a foe, perfectly sets up the Balrog.. "This foe is beyond any of you." Which only makes Gandalf's sacrifice for the Fellowship all the more heart-wrenching in my opinion.
It also makes the Balrog a gazillion times scarier (not that it wasn't already)... precisely because they've all got nearly killed by a troll a moment ago, now there's something even more dangerous right around the corner. Goddamn, it's all so well done it's frightening... literally.
What makes Gandalf's sacrifice even more saddening is the fact that, according to the lore in the books, Balrogs are great creatures of the Maiar (which in short terms are great powerful spirits) who cannot be killed by normal weapons. Thus, Gandalf is the only one who's able to stand toe-to-toe with it, since: 1. He is a great and powerful wizard. Not just any wizard, but one of the Istari, the most powerful wizards in Middle-Earth. It was even said that while he may be the last of them, he was no doubt the strongest of them. 2. He carried Glamdring, a powerful blade forged in the First Age (LOTR takes place in the Third Age). No matter if Aragon's swordsmanship was excellent or if Frodo was protected by Mithril armor. If any or all of them tried to face the Balrog, they'd all end up dead in the first few moments of combat.
@@senbonzakura6958 Yea. Balrogs are fallen angels so to speak in the Tolkien universe. They got corrupted by Morgoth somewhere along the way. They would also be unlikely to follow Sauron because they would view him as equal at best.
@@mercenarydelta7351Balrogs are not creatures of the Maiar, they are Maiar (same as Gandalf, Saruman, Sauron, etc). 1. Gandalf was not the last of the wizards. All 5 of the wizards who were sent to middle earth are still alive at this point. Gandalf also wasn’t the most powerful at this point, that would be the leader of their order Saruman the White(hence we see him kick Gandalf’s butt earlier in the movie). It’s not until Gandalf is “promoted” to the title “the White” (by I believe Eru Iluvitar himself, aka God) that he could be considered the most powerful Istari. 2. He also has an elven ring of power.
What I really like about the Moria fight scene is how all the members of the fellowship are all practically constantly saving and helping each other. Most of their actions were to save a fellow member from being killed. It makes the fight much more deep and enjoyable.
One of my favorite things about this trilogy has to be the juxtaposition between goblins and Uruk-hai. You might be inclined to ask, "How're the hobbits, who have no combat experience, staying alive against these creatures?" Then you remember that they're merely fighting goblins. What happens when the hobbits try to fight an Uruk? They get carried off like children and spend the first third of the second film unable to do anything against them.
Exactly! That is something that really bothered me in the Hobbit trilogy, how these "great white orcs" were portrayed. They were huge! Why did they need urukhai if those orcs existed? Orcs were suppose to me human-size, twisted and tormented ex-elves, and shy away from daylight. And then you have Azog, with a SON, Bolg, enjoying the day and they're huge beefcakes and it just feels.... wrong!
There were always different sized Orcs described in the lore. Even in LOTR there are the big black Uruks from Mordor and the much smaller Orcs from the Misty Mountains. Azog was mentioned in LOTR, too, as being a "great Orc" and the leader of the Orcs of Moria. @@vinuristhebest
Also I want to point out that in TLOTR when they prepare for the fight the characters each do something that represents there nature. Boromir being someone who lives to protect his people is upfront ready to be the first into danger. Aragorn commands the hobbits on where to go and stays back with the rest of the group. Showing how he is natural as a leader but wants to deny the roll as he feels he is not worthy and stays with rest of the group. Legolas staying in between everyone so he can help who ever needs it the most. Gimli standing on Balins Tomb showing his great love for his family and how he seeks to protect the ones he cares for even in death. Gandalf staying with the hobbits showing his great love and compassion for them. And the hobbits in the back farthest from the fight but end up doing some of the greatest deeds in the battle.
@@alexsass6539 absolutly. i copied that out of the Lotro (lord of the rings online) page. the game is kinda meh. needs a lot of love to be great again but i love what they did there: Gameplay: Guardians wear heavy armour and have many defensive skills that allow them to survive battles against the most fearsome foes. Guardians also have skills that draw foes' attention away from their allies and themselves. In Fellowships, a Guardian forces enemies to attack himself or herself, so his or her more fragile allies will not be harmed by foes. Lore: The Guardians are the stout protectors of the weak, and defenders of those in need. They are loyal companions to the end. True Guardians stand in the forefront of battle, shielding allies from enemy assaults. This class was inspired by the hobbit Samwise Gamgee, whose loyalty to Frodo Baggins knew no bounds. they had many characters they could have chosen for the guardian but they chose sam
it seems so ahead of its time, whenever i watch most late 90s/early 2000s feel they still have that sort of 80s/90s vibe, but LOTR takes you to a new world, the visual effects even hold up... it's just amazing
I remember watching peter jackson's movies and loving it... but with the announcement of this fking travesty, it ignighted my interest in reading the source material. I'm now starting fellowship and by god it even just the hobbit and the appendices are better than anything I've read in terms of story telling to the point I'm wondering why there isn't an official religion dedicated to these books. Where do I sign up for the church of tolkien.
For me the worst part of the scene, Apart from thinking chainmail hoodies will protect you from the cold is when she kills the cave troll she flicks blood onto the camera! Implying there is a camera man in the scene. This is never repeated in the rest of the series.
It actually is repeated once more in the fight scene in the first comparison video when the orc pulls the knife out his eye some of it's blood does a splatter effect on the camera. Not sure if there are any other times where that happens but it is quite possible it does.
"6 companions by her side" The funny thing is, depending on the moment of the scene you watch, there are from nine to five guys in Galadriel's company, it's actually crazy how bad it was filmed
"The funny thing is, depending on the moment of the scene you watch, there are from nine to five guys in Galadriel's company, it's actually crazy how bad it was filmed" Maybe she just ran so far ahaed again that the rest of the elves weren't in the picture :)
the troll scene in LOTR told us a lot: the growing bond and eternal friendship between gimli and legolas. the respect growing between boromir and aragon. the familal kinship of merry and pippin. gandalf's protection of the hobbits. sam's devotion to frodo. and how frodo was the core of the group. the troll scene in ROP told us one thing: guyladriel is awesome and don't need no man. or men in this case.
Why would she need help to fight off a troll? Her uncles and siblings are basically one-man armies in Tolkien's lore. It seems you haven't read any of it.
@Taxtro Then why do warriors the caliber of Legolas and Aragorn etc. along with a powerful wizard struggle against a troll. Why not just have Aragorn solo it? This is considering Aragorn is way cooler than Guyladriel btw.
@@MrCmon113 That's the thing though, that scene doesn't show any of that. It's just the Elves get fucked, Galadriel runs in and does some video game-looking moves. All it does is make the troll look pathetic, her pals look pathetic and the show look pathetic.
One of my favorite lines in the Moria scene is when Boromir looks back and calmly says, _"They have a Cave Troll."_ You can see that it's almost out of resignation. I've heard other people complain that the line was somehow "boring" or something, but I think it was just perfect. Like his heart had just bounced off his testicles. Our D&D gaming group quoted that line for years after the movie came out.
It's a masterclass in subtlety in delivery, and leadership in character. When you're delivering information on the battlefield, the last thing you want to do is sound hyperactive and panicked. You need to let your team know the situation without inciting chaos.
Another one of these moments is when Gandalf announces, that there is a Balrog of Morgoth. Threre is one second frame on Legolase´s face and at that moment only he comprehends how much they are screwed...
@@ZRRero But still, no hysteria. Perhaps a smidge of resignation, but he still went on to kicked ass rather than cower in the corner. _THAT_ is bravery. Not being without fear but throwing your all against fear.
well Boromir is supposed to be a seasoned field commander and warrior. Knowing he's travelling with people who have even more experience. Calmly stating the information they need and can comprehend right away without losing temper is the right way to go for him. Also, he's already fought trolls in Gondor and probably lost men to them, hence the tone of someone knowing he's in for a harsh battle.
A small thing right at the start of the battle, there's a moment where you can see Boromir step in front of Aragorn when the goblins are closing in, so that Aragorn can draw his sword. Such a tiny detail, blink and you'll miss it, but it really helps the team feel like... you know, a team?
That's a fantastic detail, never noticed that before. And that means Boromir has to trust that Aragorn isn't going to second-guess which weapon to use so that he isn't stepping into the path of another arrow.
Please don’t not stop making scene comparisons. Talk about the entire emotions ark of lotr compared to rings of power. The weight of the story. The momentum is what I am speaking about
That kung fu fight against big chungus orc was pretty hilarious and full of wires. And the way the guy was slammed against five stone walls without a single injury.
@@alexandrel6344 and how can anyone with active brain cells watch that scene and not laugh or think what the fuck is this. How will billions of dollars is there a complete lack of realism. It’s “fantasy action” in the worst way. Like ballet dancers instead of world war 1 trenches
I watched "Fellowship of the Ring" many times and always paid close attention to the battle scene with the cave troll. The continuity of the scene is amazing. There are no skips or blocked views. There is no 'fourth wall' convention as in watching a theater play. All sides of the room are shown, the layout inside the room is clear. The position in the room of each character is continuous as they move about or flung back. Its like a choreographed ballet. Superb.
It's more amazing when you realize that in order to make the Hobbits look small, they had to build *two sets at different scales* and use forced perspective when the Big Folk are with them! And the scene is still perfect!
And it’s not like it was a spacious room either, it is pretty tight for the fellowship, the orcs, and the lumbering cave troll. But the director made full use of every square foot of space, and how each member navigated through that room with columns and ledges.
I also love when Aaragorn saves Boromir, they *dont* do some corny “took you long enough!” Or “who’s your king now?” Line or whatever He nods like “you good?” And Boromir nods back like “I’m good, thanks to you my dude”
It's the degree of in universe seriousness that the movies (mostly) had. Real people don't talk like modern Hollywood hacks write them, this reaction is so much more realistic.
Was is and always will be garbage. I havent watched a single episode of rings of power cuz i knew it was going to be another massive woke flop. Its incredibly funny and sad at the same time that we can predict the fate of an entire show from a single trailer these days...@@eshw23
Amazon's Galadriel was young and impulsive. Give her a couple of centuries to wise up... Which makes no sense when we remember that: - she grew up in Valinor, among the Valar and Maiar; - she lived for centuries with Melian, one of the wisest Maia; - at the time of the Rings of Power, she was one of the oldest elf, if the the oldest elf.
@@ghyslainabel Yeah, I remember being confused when they said that younger Galadriel is young and impulsive. At that point in time she is about 6000 years old somewhere in her 5000s at the youngest so she is already pretty old. There are elves older than her around still such as Cirdan the Shipwright who was the oldest elf in middle earth and was one of the elves that woke up in the very beginning when elves were first created if I remember correctly if I am not missing canon and fanon.
@@eshw23 why wouldn’t it? Amazon is going solely and exclusively for money. It just attracts people who convinced themselves to like lotr to buy its product
Honestly its like an AI wrote this pile of shit. I dont like leaving comments like this that get people riled up over films/series but it really is just a massive middle finger to everyone
@@mooncat7009I Usually I just state my opinion of the show and move on....I don't pick fights with people who liked the series...but I do make it a point to try to annoy the dummies who are attacking those who don't like this crappy series.
@@mr.s2005 the show isn’t that bad even thought it doesn’t feel connected to the trilogy book series. Lord of the Ring fans should at least appreciate and acknowledge the cast and editors that put countless hours and stress into making this series for 5 years. Film making isn’t an easy job, especially when it comes to trying to please their viewers. Haters don’t understand the lengths of workers had to do to make the show good as possible but it’s impossible to please everyone
@@coffeelink943nobody is ever bashing people who are just doing their job (although I would argue that they also kinda underdelivered, like prop makers with their armor, or CGI department, which couldn’t bother to make numenor fleet bigger than three dingy boats). Hell I for one never blame the actors even, they are just tools in the hands of a director. People who are to blame are directors, writers, producers and showrunners along with people who conceived this abomination.
It's a great detail that Pippin is the last one on the troll and that his stab, is part of what created the opening for Legolas to kill it. It shows Pippin really tried to make amends for his mistake, as well as fighting for his friends.
Pippin absolutely overcomes his early mistakes. By Return of the King, he's confident, brave, and saves Faramir's life. He's also loyal and humble, signing up to fight even though the steward thinks it's a joke. He doesn't want to be a leader or a hero, he just wants to do his part to help. He doesn't have to be the strongest warrior to do all that.
The cave troll scene in LOTR is so awesome you could watch it frame by frame and still see new details years later. No one is just standing waiting for their turn to swing, every orc, hobbit, dwarf, man and second of action is accounted for and plays out perfectly.
they do stand and wait, but they do it in a "Need to find an opening and not be thrown on the other side of the room" instead of "oh you are fighting, I'll respect that and let you kill my ally and wait my turn". Like we see Gimli go in, hit, retreat.. and wait for another chance to go in, while the troll is just wailing all over.
Merry and Pippin jumping on the Troll was so powerful to 12 year old me seeing it for the first time... The smallest, weakest of the group overcoming their fear and taking on the biggest threat in the room out of pure sense of duty to their friends... Everything in this movie, down to the elements of action scenes, has a purpose and a meaning that ties back to the big themes. Masterpiece.
What stands out for me, re-watching the scene, is how quickly and well it establishes Aragorn as a capable leader and why his companions show him respect *as* a leader. Throwing his sword to save Boromir costs him a valuable weapon in the midst of a thick fight, but he doesn't hesitate to sacrifice some of his own capability to save an ally. RoP's Galadriel seems like she would allow her entire company to perish rather than risk a chance to show off her sword-spinning.
He also jumps in front of the troll and tries to kill it with a pike when it corners Frodo. Sure that same pike almost killed Frodo shortly after, but Aragorn tried his best and clearly understood the stakes.
I think one of the most important parts of seeing the difference between the movies and the series, is that no one in the movies is truly overpowered, invincible, or just so good at fighting that it’s not even a challenge. It took the entire fellowship to take down one cave troll, but even then seemingly just barely and almost killing Frodo. In the series, Galadriel watches a cave troll mow down her group, then does a fucking gymnastic backflip and kills the troll in one shot, landing the move. There was no struggle, no teamwork, and no consequences. They all walk out completely fine, so if they were to just completely cut this scene out there would be no way of telling.
So many things I love about that fight in Moria. You pointed out a lot of them, but I wanted to add a few: - Camerawork and drum sounds at 1:45 are masterful. I felt true terror as a kid seeing that camera going down the well into the darkness, panning around frantically, seeing nothing -- but hearing those drums of impending doom. - The music starting at 2:01 so perfectly captures the feeling of intense fear and anxiety. - The timing and sound of the goblin howl at 2:03 is perfect. Such a memorable sound. Peter Jackson and his crew made the orcs feel so real throughout the trilogy. - You don't show it, but "They have a cave troll" is probably my favorite line from the whole scene. Delivered in a perfectly brusque tone by Sean Bean -- Boromir has probably fought similar abominations before (perhaps even the armored Olog-hai we see during the battle of Minas Tirith), and is mostly just annoyed that the upcoming battle is going to be even more difficult than it would have already been, what with needing to protect four hobbits. - It's also not really shown in this video, but I love the detail of the difference between Aragorn and Legolas as they stand ready with their bows. Aragorn is still a decent archer, being a Dunedain ranger, but his stance is much more unsteady compared to Legolas'. That's the difference a few thousand more years practicing archery will make. - Beginning around 2:42, we can hear the distinctive battle cries of each member of the Fellowship. Don't know why, but I just love how easily you can identify which character is making which cry. There's only one character who is basically silent throughout the fight, and that is Legolas -- totally befitting of Elven grace and composure. - Beginning at 2:58, we get a few reactions of the Fellowship to seeing the troll. Unlike the Rings of Power troll fight, this troll is an actual threat. It takes multiple hits from and the near deaths of virtually every member of the Fellowship to take the thing down. It isn't just dispatched with godlike efficiency by one character after the rest of the group proves themselves to be utterly incompetent, as is the case in the Rings of Power scene (where Galadriel's companions include supposedly elite Elven warriors, and not Men and Hobbits). - The renewed ferocity that Merry, Pippin, Sam, and Gandalf are shown to fight with after Frodo gets stabbed at 4:48 is beautiful. It shows the human side of all of them (adrenaline coursing through you after an incident that instills rage or fear in you) as well as the extent to which they care for Frodo. - At 6:09, the battle is over, but there is no happiness, no gloating, only a momentary sense of relief, and we as the viewer are even made to feel a bit sorry for the troll as we witness its final few moments. I remember from watching the behind the scenes of LoTR that Peter Jackson commented on how this troll was probably quite an innocent creature that had been enslaved by the orcs for their own purposes, and how, somewhere out there, there might be a troll mother whose child would not be returning to her. You can see those thoughts reflected in the way the scene is directed. The troll is still a threat, and must be dispatched, but it is brought to the fight in chains, and in its last moments just seems hurt and confused. You feel like this didn't have to happen the way it did. It's just a nice bit of nuance added in, and it makes the main enemy of this fight more than just an evil monster to be killed. With all of that said, I have absolutely nothing good to say about the Rings of Power troll fight. Nothing at all.
I agree with everything, but to be that guy for a moment, I just want to point out that the trolls at Minas Tirith were just armoured mountain trolls. The only Olog-hai we see in the movies is what Aragorn fights at the black gate.
Zoë from Firefly, Ripley from Aliens, Sam from SG1, Starbuck - Laura Roslin - Athena - Dualla - Cally - Racetrack - Kat from Battlestar Galactica, Eowyn - Arwen - Galadriel from jackson's lotr, Lagertha from Vikings....All good examples of how to make a strong badass female character without making them appear as arrogant, cold and unrelatable. So much inspiration out there and these writers F'd it up
Craziest thing is. They could have just taken inspiration from .. and here it comes I know its incredibly outside of the box.. Galadriel from LOTR. She was right there. Almost angelic. Full of power. Wise. Deliberate. Scary in a way.
Maybe that's the point. Young women these days don't have much role models and everyone watches TV/streaming. These are supposed to be a role model of a strong woman but really she's just the most unlikable person possible. Again, that's probably the point.
They created a toxic male character in female form. If we don't want those in male form, please writers, don't give them to us in female form. They're just as bad and for the same reasons.
Mentioning Legolas in Moria, on of the eastereggs I love the most is when the balrog is mentioned for the first time and nobody has any clue what are they facing, but Legolas remembers them well and you can see that on his face.
Another detail from the scene of Fellowship is how, once the fighting is over, they look at the troll's corpse, with a strange sense of sadness. They knew they HAD to kill it. They didn't enjoy bringing an innocent, scared creature enslaved by the orcs to its demise, and they saw the loss of life for what it was: a tragedy. Galadriel on the other hand... well. It's hard to tell if she even is capable of such empathy and compassion.
Pretty sure that's not what they were thinking and that's not how Tolkien's world works. Trolls aren't mindless animals. They are just another incarnation of Morgoth's evil. Every troll is evil just like every orc is evil.
@@SylvEdu True, but it would be plausible, and I think it that sentiment doesn't worsen that scene. I watched the movies before reading anything of Tolkien and that's how I felt too. Same thing for the Oliphaunts. The Oliphaunts themselves are also described as being somewhat evil, but in the movie I couldn't help but feel sorry for them.
The cave troll fight also establishes how reliant the hobbits are on the other members of the fellowship for safety and guidance, wherea RoP wastes no time in showing us how little Galadriel needs anybody. Plus showing Gollum close up while Frodo is still guarded by others just makes him feel so much more dangerous later on when the Hobbits get deprived of this safety.
I think what's so off-putting about Galadriel in RoP is that it feels like she's simultaneously done her character arc but also just starting it. She's already the best warrior in any room. She is far stronger, both metally and physically, than her veteran friends. She should be Ben Kenobi or Gandalf, NOT the main protagonist. Instead, in this story, she's not a wise mentor. She's one of the oldest beings in middle earth and she's childish, impulsive, uncaring, and just a general asshole, which makes it seem like she actually still needs to learn things. Her childishness (which doesn't make sense, but whatever) sets her up to learn how to lead throughout the story. In fact, everything in this scene that isn't the payoff is setting up for this. She ignores the reasonable questions of her men, leads them into mortal danger despite *any* evidence to support her theory, watches them get abused by a cave troll, and gets mutinied for it. That's a character that needs to learn. But she takes down the troll by herself so apparently she doesn't need to learn anything and her companions just need to get good. And the story just runs with that as if "I hit things good" is a reason to not have to change and grow. To be clear, an arc during which 5000-year-old Galadriel who has already been through multiple wars learns how to lead makes absolutely no sense, but at least it would make the character feel finished. Instead it feels like the writers couldn't decide whether to make her an actual character or not and got halfway through before deciding to just make her an unstoppable, insufferable god.
Ian McKellen's reading of the Book of Mazarbul still gives me massive chills, even taken out of context like this. I daresay there are no modern films that are this evocative. Quality like that is not produced these days.
The end, when he says, “They are coming”, still sends a chill through me. Sir Ian McKellen is one of the best actors and my favorite in Jackson’s LOTR trilogy.
7:43 is the moment when we see one of her first interactions and you can see how triggered, a bit angry and offended she is for a mere fact the her soldier DARED to speak to her. It looks like she already assumed that whatever he will say is somehow wrong.
@@yad-thaddag Then it's a bad one. Why would you marry someone who doesn't like you? This is such a boring cliché. You either are unhappily married, or don't actually know anything about marriage.
And the thing is, this scene could have worked. Had they developed that soldier the be the *whiner* of the group, constantly over centuries to be the one to argue going back, to complain about going to hostile places. But because this is not developed, any of that context misses from the scene and it falls flat and only shows Galadriel as arrogant, instead of being determined to fullfill the mission.
The best possible interpretation, is Galadriel gets pissed off because she knows she's breaking Gil Galad's orders by continuing and she doesn't like being reminded of that. Making the character dynamic even worse, somehow.
I think a better alternative would've been to portray her as caring and compassionate taking the time to support her men and maybe even have a campsite scene to flesh out her team. Then she could decide to abandon the mission and as they make their way back they get stranded in a blizzard and after wandering aimlessly stumble upon the lost fortress (not the best alternative but better than what we got). They didnt need to make her hate everyone around her.
Note the great character-building payoff with the smallest of details, at the 2:20 mark in your video. When Legolas throws the ax to Boromir to barricade the door, it's such a small moment, but it shows us several critical things that differentiate LotR from Rings of Power. This scene shows us that both Legolas and Boromir are warriors (competent for the situation), they both understand the gravity of the situation (have good judgement), and they're both prioritizing the mission/team over whatever prior disagreements they had or whatever distrust exists between men, elves and dwarves (upstanding character). In one second, we see several things, including their backgrounds/training/competence, their motivations, and their character. They could have argued over how best to defend the attack, or started with their own defensive plans (being utterly egocentric, as Amazon loves to do with its characters). They could have bungled the barricading for increased dramatic effect (displaying incompetence, something else Amazon is obsessed with, producing incompetent characters). They could have pulled out superhero moves (again, Amazon loves this as a plot device for its protagonists and utilized it in their troll fight). But they did none of these things. Instead they demonstrated why they are respectable and commendable characters worth investing in. (edited for grammar and spelling)
FOTR troll was so well portrayed as a foe to be reckoned with, that it enhanced the scene where 3 armored trolls broke into the gates of Gondor in ROTK, as well as Aragorn's losing fight with the troll at the Black Gate.
Yo I just finished watch all 3 extended editions of lotr and holy shit they only get better and better. There is so much more emotional weight scene by scene in all 3 movies than rings of power could ever hope to reach. I will ALWAYS remember the entire fellowships scream and rally to fight as soon as the goblins come rushing in. The pure adrenaline and courage can be absolutely felt
Guyladriel fighting reminds me of a Steven Segal fight scene. No one ever manages to touch him and he wipes the floor with everyone in seconds making the whole thing pointless.
@@MrCmon113 It's true. Her family are particularly badass especially her uncle Fingolfin (in my opinion). As is Galadriel but she is never really described as a warrior is she? It's more to do with being one of the wisest and intelligent elves along with her ill defined magical powers such as reading minds and telepathy. I would also point out that her entire family (that travelled to Middle Earth) is dead pretty much so certainly weren't perfect. Other than Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen who is left alive of her family?
@@danzansandeev6033 I think it's the whole 'strong female character' thing. Strength only comes in the form of physical prowess in their limited view. And they have to be independent hence her abandoning her men readily and the erasure of her husband and daughter. But like you say it's a downgrade.
Galadriel's characterization here was intentional, of course, but watching this got me thinking about the design or writing philosophies of the different writers. Especially in what it means to write a "flawed hero." Boromir is a hero. He is brave and strong and is generally good to his companions, as well as working well with others in battle. He loves his homeland and his people. However, he becomes so desperate to save and protect his homeland that he just might be willing to do something bad to protect it. The ring detects that in him and uses it to corrupt him, and in a moment of weakness and madness he tries to take the ring from Frodo. When he fails and the ring loses its hold on him, he is immediately horribly sorry, and his character arc bends towards redemption. When he falls, fighting bravely for the sake of others, it is tragic and emotional. And when Aragorn comes, he is able to have one last heartfelt conversation before he dies, acknowledging Aragorn as his king and entrusting the future to others. When Gandalf calls Pippin "a fool of a Took" for looking into the Palantir, we know that Pippin means well, but he's still got quite a bit of "curious hobbit" in him, and he and the other hobbits seem like they're in way over their heads in this adventure. But still, Pippin loves the other hobbits, he's good-natured, and when a hobbit is brave, it feels like a different kind of bravery than when an elite warrior is brave. You can also see his friendliness when he and Merry bond with the Ents. But when the "Rings of Power" writers write a character flaw for Galadriel...they write a character that is very nearly a villain. And when I think about that, I get to thinking I've seen a number of shows where the heroes or protagonists are unlikeable and very nearly villains. Or at least, I think I've seen quite a few shows start like that on Netflix, but I don't usually keep watching to the end. Such shows and "heroes" grow annoying.
More on Boromir, he's also a natural born leader. You can SEE this, though it is also explained, by how he is sparring with Merry and Pippin prior to Moria, the way he challenges Aragorn to "Give them a moment, for pity's sake!" after Moria etc. I think there is a very subtle development where Aragorn learns how to be a better leader FROM Boromir; Aragorn initially is very direct and abrupt with the Hobbits since the Prancing Pony. When I was younger I thought Boromir was the bad human because he was the one that was trying to take the Ring, but when you take a deep look at it and see what he does its clear that he's a charismatic and KIND leader. He's flawed, and he eventually redeems himself just before perishing. And think about this: Aragorn needs to learn to be kinder to the hobbits. And yet he isn't half as much of a dick to the hobbits as Galadriel is to the companions she's been traveling with for centuries.
The ultimate mistake of making Galadriel into whatever she was in RoP was that she didn't even change her ways. Her apathy and thirst for vengeance/affirmation that the enemy is fully eradicated *could* feasibly have been explored, pulled apart, over the course of the episodes. But that would require a complete revision of Tolkien's world. We know from the lore (and the movies for that matter) that Galadriel will be correct in her assumption of Sauron's survival. We know the writers weren't intending to challenge her characterization, or play with the idea she might be... *gasp* MISGUIDED. or made to be unreasonable via grief. No, she was justified in her crusade. So all those minimum-wage elf scouts should've just shut up! And Numenor should've listened to her from the start! Because she was right all along! Unflinchingly trust in her cold, inflexible methods! She's so bold and inspiring for happening to be an oracle!
Clearly in the writer's eyes, those aren't even supposed to be flaws. I mean, damn if that's the model of the boss babe female leader feminism wants women to aspire to, then God have mercy on those women's employees.
I generally agree, although even the LOTR films (as much as I love them) have some poor writing for Boromir e.g. in the Council of Elrond, he starts walking towards the ring like someone possessed and extends his hand to take it. Gandalf has to start speaking in the black tongue to stop him. He seems pretty evil from that first scene. They should have been more subtle imo.
Great video. The "elf eyes don't see shit, apparently" line had me laughing. I haven't watched LOTR in too long, what a great scene! One cave troll almost kills three of the nine members of the fellowship. The fellowship includes several experienced soldiers or fighters, which we are reminded of in the way they jump into action. Gandalf earlier recounted how 'we have barred the gates.' They hear drums in the deep, Boromir rushes to close the doors, Legolas spies a bar with his elf eyes, throws it to Aragorn who helps Boromir brace the doors. This action is repeated, further displaying their combat knowledge, but also showing how this fellowship comes together in a crisis. They must've gained somewhat of an understanding of each others strengths, having travelled vast distances together. They didn't just teleport across the continent - coz "plot." Awesome visual storytelling in LotR. Now, in TRoP, Galadriel has been leading a small team of soldiers all across middle earth for a thousand years when they find this cave in the snow. Elf npc #1 sees a cave troll and runs back to the group. Elf npcs #2 and #3 stand in the open, bow and sword drawn, with no cover and no attempt to gain a better position. Are these elven warriors who have already survived war and been travelling together for centuries? How the hell did they survive that long? I guess them all being fine at the end of the fight shows... they're just that resilient? Because it wasn't their apparent lack of fighting experience or teamwork. Then Galadriel kills the troll like it's not a problem at all; barely an inconvenience. Way to take all the power away from the troll - like Tom Bombadil holding the ring of power and dismissing it at the start of the story. They omitted the Tom Bombadil encounter from the movies for that reason - it immediately takes all the power away from the ring. Don't include a dangerous troll in your story if it's not a danger. Garbage visual storytelling in TRoP.
I love the scenes within moria, seeing the scale of the hall of Dwarrowdelf, the bridge of kahzad-dûm, the mines full of mithril and Balins tomb, the fellowship taking a break while Gandalf find his bearings at the three doors, it speaks to the storyteller within us all to see something so magnificent yet so completely abandoned and full of long dead dwarves, tables and chairs thrown everywhere and heavy coatings of spiderwebs, especially after hearing the tales of dwarvish customs and parties from Gimli just beforehand, a new viewer would expect it to be a nice relaxing moment before being faced with the skeletal dwarves resting against the cold stone. It feels as though it has history and you're just seeing a small piece of that long tale. Rings of power on the other hand, you don't get that with that ruin, with the troll fight. You don't get the same feeling of historical events taking place within this hall, you just see a set piece and big generic enemy to fight, it's nothing but bare bones story telling meant to get the characters from one place to the other.
In the Rings of Power they had way more budget and time, but they created like 3 sets for Moria, two being interiors (Durin's house and the mithril tunnel) that got reused to high heavens for the whole season. And the set for Moria's halls in their supposed best is just underwhelming when compared to Jackson's towering structures.
It doesn't matter how many times I've watched this scene. Seeing everyone's reactions to Frodo being stabbed brings tears to my eyes. The visceral reactions of Merry and Pippin and the utter disbelief and heartbreak in Gandalfs eyes ruin me.
I still cry every time I watch this movie... at multiple scenes. I just saw this with my 7 y/o for the first time and she cried when Gandalf fell. I can't with this movie, they don't make stories like how they used to. Truly a great experience and what film makers should strive for.
There's something about the line "Things that were, things that are, and some things...that have not yet come to pass" that gets me every time. Cate Blanchett never misses. They picked absolutely perfect actors/actresses for the elves being these ethereal entities who are somehow simultaneously holier than thou and humble. Say what you will about the Hobbit films aswell, but the casting was pretty awesome in those too. All the films, LOTR and Hobbit also exhibit heaps of "brotherly love" and male comradery in a non cringey way. Boromir crying while slowly dying, and Bilbo crying whilst watching Thorin die, are both incredible scenes.
The sound design in the LOTR goblin fight is soooo good! I've heard the echoing drums and goblin screeches a hundred times and it's still chilling every time
Look at how different it is that the Fellowship controls the movements of their troll verse how Guylaterail deals with hers. They prevent the troll from crushing Sam put pulling on the chain as it lifts up its leg while facing away from them. They use its own momentum and angle to their advantage and save Sam. Guylaterail jumps over and swings down into the troll as it is attempt to step on one of her elves. She is pushing her attack down into the troll, which would have logically caused it to gain more force into its stomp. But just like everything else in that show, they just pretend that doesn't exist and her choice to attack from above as it was attempting to stomp someone doesn't have any consequence at all. It's the little details that make the whole and RoP fails on every single level of that as well as their themes and over-aching story.
The truly sad reality is that even as screwed up as it was, Guy-ladrial's terrible entrance could have been used to initiate great character change, especially if they had killed the 'NPC's'. She made several blunders as a leader; she didn't report in when her mission ended, meaning her superiors will now have to check to see if something found and killed them. she nearly got her men killed because she over worked them and didn't set up camp or a guard. It could lead to her leadership position being taken away and having to continue her quest on her own. That could have issues.
The amazingly tragic thing about this introduction to Galadriel is that it would have been phenomenal at setting her up on an arc similar to Thor in his first movie in the MCU. Imagine if all of these ugly character traits were actually treated as flaws by the writers, ones which had to be addressed and worked out as part of her journey, instead of their delusional usage as 'good' traits to try to make her 'cool' and 'badass'? Had the writers had created this scene, completely unaltered, with goal of showing off an arrogant, unfeeling, unsympathetic, anti-heroic protagonist that the Audience would start off hating, a character shown at their lowest point because the planned arc was to then redeem them and turn them into a true hero by the end: it would be deserving of a shower of praise and adulation. Galadriel would be such a good diamond in the rough archetype in this scene... if only they had acknowledged how rough she's starting out; - An amazing warrior, but an abysmal commander, - A focused and efficient mind that sadly has no space for attachment, emotion, or empathy, - A one-tracked-bordering-on-paranoid fixation with chasing the shadows of a long-dead threat to reality itself... that just so happens to be correct after all. - A knowledgeable yet arrogant person who cannot take input, advice, or meaningful help from others, even those who see and know things she doesn't or can't yet. Imagine how engaging that character would be, who had to learn and overcome all of that, who had all of that working against them, whose biggest enemy is themself? Imagine the character growth as, through the story, she is confronted by her own limitations in ways she cannot ignore, and has to learn to rely on friends and allies to survive and achieve her goals instead of treating her companions like dead weight while she solos everything? And imagine the emotional impact, even if we the Audience work out fairly quickly that her main companion is Sauron in hiding, imagine the emotional impact when, after her journey was centered around opening up to ideals of friendship and teamwork and camaraderie and becoming, for lack of a better word, a better, richer, fuller 'human'-being instead of an automaton... imagine the emotional impact when all of that is betrayed by her realization that she's gone through this journey and done all of this with Sauron, The Dark Lord, the one she wished more than anything else to eradicate forever? THAT, my friends and gentlefolk.... THAT is a story worthy of the telling.
I watched LOTR countless times. Over and over and over again... Once in a while you just go back to this story. You cry when Boromir dies. You always gasp when Gendalf fights the Balrog. You feel the ever living fear when orcs assault Helms Deep and Minas Tirith. Honestly, I always asked why... Why I am going back to this? Why this efing story is so good? And I just understand that in LOTR film I always believe that this world is real. I am honest! This world is breathing! It`s alive. Emotions caused by ROP = 0, zero, zilch, none... All we have to say. Will never watch that shit again.
This video made me appreciate some of the amazing details from FOTR. One thing that struck me is the face of the cave troll at 4:21. It looks so confused and scared when Aragorn jumps in. They really capture the fright and confusion of a scared slave that is abused as a war machine. That, combined with Aragorns epic war cry - simply amazing!!
What I love especially about Moria battle scene - untill cave troll separates Frodo from Merry and Pippin there is no music, just sounds of struggle and clashing weapons. Whole fight feels more real and physical, you can tell something hits something. Galadriel in RoP looks like she is cutting air with her sword while doing acrobatics to epic score.
The parts in this video about RoP gave me some good laughs, but the parts about the real LotR almost brought a tear to my eye because of the beauty of the friendship of the characters Tolkien created, and how accurately Jackson and co. were able to lovingly portray it.
I remember when they came out of the mountain. The grey but clear daylight sort of telling they had escaped their enemies to saftey, but then had time to mourn the loss of their friends. It was beautiful like so much in the movie.
One of my absolute FAVORITE moments in the FOTR scene which I don't see many people mentioning is at 4:00 when the troll just OBLITERATES two of the goblins as it goes after Gimli, who jumps backward just in time to avoid being pulverized. Makes me crack up every single time! Something about the way Gimli falls over and the squeal of the goblin as it gets swatted across the room just absolutely SENDS me. Proof you don't need corny jokes every few seconds to insert comedy into an action scene (looking at you, Marvel)
Gimli stumbling over dead goblins which in turns saves his life as he's totally unaware to the troll attacking him. He's still just fighting goblins without even noticing xD Genius writing and everything.
@@Aramil4 I didn't say people "missed" or didn't notice that part. I said I didn't see other people mentioning it (as in, there weren't other comments talking about it). I'm glad it's a memorable part of the scene for you as well, though.
You deserve more views, my good sir. These comparisons are excellent and totally on point. The cave troll scene in FoTR is one the best in the entire series. It shows us that the characters in LOtR are not overpowered cartoon superheroes. Even Gandalf, who in the lore is literally an angel in human form is limited by said form and he's not invincible. He knows some things are beyond him. These fight scenes are not just realistic, they respect the intelligence of the audience and the characters, and I think J.R.R Tolkien's own attitudes and intent. He wrote that fantasy should have certain standards of realism and should adhere to certain rules. You cannot simply get away with a total lack of realism in everything just because its fantasy.
Peter Jackson said the moria sequence was one of his favorite scenes in the trrilogy if he had to pick (Interview with Colbert). I saw FotR when I was young and it made such a lasting impression on me.
God damn that moria scene hits so hard. The build up from reading the diary, to hearing the drums in the distance, to all out chaos where you feel like any of the main characters could die at any second to the hands of depraved orcs or a yoked ass troll. Compared to ROP which is like two kids playing with their toys in the sandbox
As I watched this scene the first time I realized that the series was going to suck. I couldn't believe how terrible it was even without being able to elucidate as you've done here so well. One thing I realized was that they made this fight scene so early it couldn't work because you cannot care about the characters -- but it didn't take long to hate the character they seemingly were trying to make you accept as the hero. What a waste of money...
This is almost exactly how I felt about this part of the series, except I went in expecting a bad series before I started watching it altogether. It almost made me stop watching but the Durin and Elrond part got me back into it. Also, I wanted to see if it was really as bad as people said it was. For a budget series it really was halfdecent. They could have hired better actors and certainly the script was bad, but apart from the pointless action scenes, the lack of story and the not so great CGI and costumes it was actually ok. Could have used a bit more budget though, it felt really cheap all the way through.
@@bbgun061 Its a common joke on commenting on the shows insane budget. I feel there is truth to what I am saying though, the quality of just about everything is low. It proves that throwing insane amounts of money at a problem doesn't make for something great. You need a lot of care, dedication and love to create a show of this scale. I'm sure some people put their heart and soul into this project, which makes it even more sad that it failed so miserably. Imagine you're just the belt buckle person, you spend days researching the lore what kind of beltbuckles the elves, the dwarves and the numenorians were using, coming up with different designs, trying them out on the various things the actors and extra's will be wearing. You handcraft the ones that will be in direct camera view on some of the main characters, spending all your precious time to make them absolutely perfect. And then the show comes out and it's an absolute turd of a product. That would piss me off immensely or make me extremely sad, probably both. Well belt buckle person, this is not your fault. As always, the ones at the top are responsible. The creators, writers, executive producers, casting directors and whatever these big productions use. The saddest part of it all is, they get paid a lot, while belt buckle person, who in this case was the most talented and dedicated person on the entire crew gets a fraction of that.
@@pinobluevogel6458 I think you make a good point that struck me while watching this. It seems all the huge budget managed to do is create detailed sets and costumes. The visuals are good. The sets are good. But there's no heart and soul behind them. The belt buckle person can be amazing and create the most elven buckle ever to be made, but if Elf #4 is wearing it for two seconds as they get deleted by a random troll, what comes of it? The insane amount of money just bought a shallow passability to the series. It made it look good. It doesn't feel good, it doesn't sound good, it doesn't read good, and most importantly doesn't do Tolkien justice good. The instant I saw Galadriel not even looking at the cave troll as she sliced and diced it I knew they just went for flashiness over deep, heartfelt moments.
I don’t get why the writers of ROP didn’t just write a new character, because what made Galadriel both powerful and terrifying is that she can make massive political and powerful moves without doing much, she influences people by being who she is. In ROP this interesting character component was tossed aside in favor of creating weak conflict between Galadriel and the people that work for her.
It wasn't a cave troll, though there was one there, that tried to impale Frodo in the book, but a great orc chiefton. There was no time to spare. Aragorn scooped Frodo up and ran out the door with him in his arms. When Frodo finally got his breath back and said," I can walk, put me down," Aragorn nearly dropped him in surprized. He thought it was a dead hobbit he was carrying. The Mithral corslet was not discovered until hours after they excaped Moria. Frodo was having trouble keeping up with the others and fell far behind, so Aragorn decided to carry him. As soon as they found a place undercover to rest for a bit, Aragorn insisted, "We must have a look and see what the hammer and the anvil have done to you, " and gave a gasp of wonder. "Look, my friends. Here's a pretty hobbit-skin to wrap an elven-princeling in! If it were known that hobbits had such hides, all the hunters of Middle-earth would be riding to the Shire!" Then Gimi said his piece, "And all the arrows of all the hunters in the world would be in vain!" The scene in the movie, though not the same as the book, was very well done.
Good stuff man. I especially appreciate you breaking down how action also demonstrates characters. Something that's bugged me a lot about more recent writing. Really enjoy these! (also saw a bit of you hanging out with the Critical Drinker - rock on my dude!)
U know what’s great about the LOTR scene? The fellowship continues to fight the enemies in front of them, all while keeping an eye on their surroundings and their comrades. What a great team!
One thing I love about the LotR scene is the lack of music, the dramatic strings, flutes and horns that has been upping the tension as the goblins have mustered outside the door of the burial chamber/ achive dies off the moment the door is breached, giving the watchers and listeners the feel that this situation is less "scripted" (if that makes sense), it is not the traditional good vs evil where good always prevails; there are real stakes here and tension, the Fellowship are humble/experienced enough to know that their little party, though made up from great warriors, will have little real chance against a massive force in a cramped space. The music doesn't kick back in until Jackson wants more tension, in rather marvelous fashion when the troll goes after Frodo specifically. Compare that to tRoP.... Tension filled music through the chase and the battle with the npcs, but the moment Guyladriel jumps into the fray it all turns very powerful and heroic... There is no tension anymore, even the music is telling us there is no way this is ending badly for our "heroin"... Why should we care if there are no stakes? Why should we feel compelled to root for a character with no room to change, grow and evolve? Sure, watching an overpowerful character dance through a group of enemies making a mockery of them is cool to see... once, and after that, when you realize "oh this was not just a onetime showcase, this is what they made the character to be... all the time?" it starts to get dumb and we lose interest - why? Cuz we already know how every fight is going to end, it's just a matter of how is she doing it this time...
Man, every time I see any glimpse of these movies I just want to watch them all again. I'll never get over how perfectly made they are, it's like a warm hug ❤
One of the other things that stand out in the LotR is that battles are actually chaotic as they really would be, rather than slick and choreographed, backhanded stabbing with ease
The battle in the Mines of Moria is my absolute favourite moment in the LOTR. I was a kid back in the late 90s reading the book and I still remember how it felt like my heart was beating to the sound of the drums, the drums in the deep. It was an inexplicable experience that even Peter Jackson's LOTR won't capture, but they damn well did it justice.
The whole series looked like as if the entire crew decided to celebrate the fact they got the project, but got a little carried away with the celebration. And when they finally realized they've spent all the time they had and there are only a few weeks to actually work on the project, they did the best that they could do...in two weeks..
that "what about them" from the orc in LOTR was so good mate! burst out laughing again after the "elf guy vs big chungus" of the first video. Keep on gettin these videos out!
I love these, I plan to send these videos to my friend to explain to him why I loathe and despise RoP (he already knows that I love LoTR). Something I noticed in the LoTR fight in the tomb was when Aragorn saves Boromir after he was tossed into the wall, Aragorn threw Boromir's sword through the goblin closest to him. Almost like he was giving the weapon back to its owner. Loved the unspoken communication between them.
While watching Rings of Power this immideatly came to my mind. Never even noticed the character building/development during the Moria fight. But what I liked about Lotr is that they are (most of them at least) skilled warriors or powerful characters, yet within certain degrees. In Moria they needed eachother to survive, even though they are powerful themselves. And just a regular troll required all of them to kill it, which creates tension and shows their power isnt limitless. In Rings of Power galadriel singlehandly killed the troll without ever creating the illusion she was in danger or anything.
One of my favorite details is that Aragorn throws Boromir’s own sword at the goblin to save his life. Just a cool way of returning a warrior’s weapon to him since he’s now halfway across the room. The nod of respect afterwards is the perfect way to end the scene.
Videos like this highlight what care and passion for the source material along with respect for its author can achieve when making a movie, and what a travesty of a show you can end up with when you lack all of those elements. I highly recommend watching "The Appendices" for The Lord of the Rings. The story of making the films and the work behind the scenes from top to bottom is honestly heartwarming and inspiring! It really feels like watching one very big family working on a passion project.
As someone who had delusions of movie making, I've watched the Appendices for both LotR and the Hobbit ... not quite as many times as I've watched the movies ... but close. I get annoyed when other movies don't include "making of" special features ...
These video comparisons give confirmation to the things many of us felt, but lacked the ability to articulate. I really appreciate your insight here, and your editing is also top notch!
Me too, I knew the scenes were crap, I was frustrated with Guyladriel but struggled to articulate the reason why they made me hate the main character. This video really explains what was getting under my skin.
Listen to the music in the Guyladriel scene. So heroic, chords which sing praise. There’s no remorse for her should-be-dead allies, not a note of sadness, nor terror. No slow build of horror as the troll moves again, not dead. Music is such a glorious way of elevating, or in this case demolishing, a scene. It could’ve been done with so much more heart and soul.
oh my god, the moment when you show the clip where Gandalf talks to Frodo, Enya's humming voice instantly carrys me back to 20 years ago. How beautiful it was. It makes the scene ultraly compelling.
Right? The scene in Fellowship shows the characters working together as well as their bonds and developing relationships. I would argue its also an important turning point in Boromir's arc as well. Before we only ever saw him as a bit of a jerk, but then we saw him playing with The Hobbits and realized there might be another side to him. In Moria though he shows practicality (first when he realized Dwarves had been attacked and shouted for everyone to leave, then when he went up to the door of the funeral chamber to see what was coming instead of just waiting) and then showing compassion and concern for Frodo, The Hobbits and even Gimli. Finally, it also showcased his abilities as a warrior, and showed how he and Aragorn sort of started to respect one another. He also has to bodily carry Frodo out of Moria after Gandalf died. It shows he's a caring, protective person and a good leader, not just an arrogant jerk who wants the Ring.
9:23 I immediately was drawn to "The elf who has permission to speak" because he clearly cared about his comrades and was the only one willing to question and stand up to this fucking tyrant. I was genuinely interested to learn more about him. He of course left immediately, and we were stuck with Captain Hateable.
@@cassia-andor6445 Probably, but to be honest I don't remember the name a of single character who wasn't already established in the films. Yet after over 20 years I could tell you the name of 90% of the named characters in the original trilogy.
Peter jackson actually read all of the books that JRR Tolkien had written and these scenes with this dialogue come from this interaction. I grew up with JRR Tolkiens work and we even did "The Hobbit" in english literature class. I dont think ANYone at amazon has done this.
The way the fellowship look out for each and collaborate in the battle with the cavetroll just feels so real to the situation. You really get a feeling of them being a fellowship and and the love and compassion that they have for eachother
What I love about LOTR fight scenes in general is they really didn't waste any second of screentime. There's just a lot going on -- too many movements, the camera gets shifted a lot that at first glance, it all appears chaotic. But then, it also kinda made sense, to showcase the urgency (that it's a life-death situation) and the chaos during that time. Still, even in the midst of all that "chaos", the fight scenes also still showed some kind of masterful progression or story -- for example, if you combine Legolas' screentime, you'll notice he's actually looking for the troll's weakpoints. Then, there's a lot of Legolas and Gimli scenes of them primarily looking out for each other (not just in this fight scene) even if it's initially probably unintended given their earlier dwarf vs elf debate. There's also Aragorn and Boromir's dynamic because of their history, then the hobbit's friendship because they've known each other from the start, etc. The "pairings" aren't just random, because it's part of their character background/history. BUT again, even if they do have some obvious "partners", they still never fail to look out for each other (in general) at the same time. Not only because they're a team that grew on each other, but also because (first and foremost) they are seasoned warriors. Case in point: they (at least the likes of Aragorn, etc) have a clear grasp of their surroundings if their timely support of the other is any indication, and the zoomed shots of some selected characters during Frodo's assumed death was also on point. You are right. There's so much care put into the LOTR fight scenes that showcased these character's personalities, and background. And growth! It isn't just for one person to show off, but actually tells you a story behind said person (or people). I haven't watched RoP, but based on your narrative (ie the group Galadriel is with is one she's been with for centuries, and these said people being war veterans), I don't see any depth from them, nor some sort of teamwork, nor did I even feel like they were seasoned fighters. Kinda sad, but it is what it is. I'm glad Peter J. was able to make these movies before Amazon bought the rights
I had two subsequent thoughts regarding the way Galadriel handled the troll (and now I had three). First, under the presumption that she let her comrades die, they could have emphasized that she's -a psychopath- so steadfastly determined to achieve her goals, she'd sacrifice her comrades to achieve them, in this case, and I can only presume that this is what they were going for (and maybe Brooks didn't portray it very charitably) she analyzed the trolls moves and weaknesses and used those to take it down, again, sacrificing her comrades in the process. It's not like I'd mind such a character, she'd make an excellent anti-hero, potentially a bigger harbinger of death and destruction that strikes fear into the hearts of men and elves until Sauron's rise to power, which motivates her either towards staunch pacifism or even simply isolationism, her being fully aware that if she involves herself too much in the affairs of the world, she will burn it all down to save it from destruction. Second, and again, maybe this was attempted but they didn't want the characters to spell it out, since all her comrades survived, them taking a worthy opponent's blows the way they did for the sake of scouting its moveset and barely surviving is part of their battle strategy. But...show don't tell is good and all but I feel like her comrades would have reacted differently if that were the case. It could make sense to have them be tired after such a close battle (and it would still have been better achieved if her comrades still did something while she singlehandedly took the thing down, distractions, instructions, tossing her weapons, anything). Third, well, Galadriel is a ringbearer, so she's more powerful than Legolas, does not necessarily make for a compelling story but it is part of the lore.
The moment where the hobbits charge in Moria is incredible. You can see the fear and nervousness in their face as their companions try to block the door. And then as the orcs break in the adrenaline and desperation of being caught in between blades and a hard place flashes over their face and the mask of fear slips and they burst forward with a war cry you'd not expect from otherwise such gentle people as hobbits I know Tolkien fought in WW1, and this moment to me always felt like Frodo and his friends were "going over the top" for the first time, so to speak. The tragedy, trauma and pain of combat comes back to them almost immediately after that fight, yet they push on. I think it's one of the strongest themes in Tolkien's work. Ordinary gentle people, pushed into heroism, sacrifice and great historical events where they can make a real impact, purely through the circumstances of their time And all of that theme can be seen and felt in the Hobbit's charge against truly overwhelming odds. Beautifully done.
It was also a good move during that Black Gates final battle that Aragorn would face armored troll 1vs1. Considering it took whole fellowship to take down a slave troll, Sauron's trolls are like war trolls, Olog Hai. Strong and Resistant to daylight. No chance against it, all Aragorn can do is trying to survive long enough against it.
god damn. The cave troll scene in Fellowship is one of my fav scenes of all time. You explained it really well. I had doubts about watching Rings of Power but you've convinced me to not watch it and harm the magic of Tolkien.
Also in the Peter Jackson fight all characters are true to their race. The hobbit try to hide, the humans cooperate finally when faced with great setback. The dwarf stout and immobile while the elf shows great athleticism.
Other people have pointed out: even the cave troll is shown to be a slave, enraged and dangerous but also confused and in pain. Its last moments are it trying to examine its wounds and understand what’s happening to it.
The cave troll had more characterization than about half of the characters in RoP.
Man, the death of the cave troll in Moria always makes me a little bit sad. The way he touches his lip for a second just makes it seem so child-like. You can kind of tell that maybe it's acting out of instinct, and/or coercion, and doesn't have the mental capacity to comprehend it's actions fully.
I wish this wasn't true, but it is. Random cavetrolls in Lord of the rings does seem to have more thoughts put into their character than most "main characters" in Rings of Profit.
You can sort of imagine that if the Troll understood language it would be thinking ‘Why?’ in its last moments.
I remember feeling all kinds of twisted as a kid when I saw that moment in the theater. Contemplating his sad past in between all the action.
It’s so well done. The cave troll is a slave bred for war, a pit bull type creature who’s instinct tells him to kill. I find it similar to the war elephants scene in Alexander, or master blasters death in Thunderdome, seeing them die brings great victory to the heroes but also is sad to see.
Another subtle detail in LOTR: Legolas' progression of choosing where and when to shoot the troll. He first shoots him in the chest which does minimal damage. Next he tries 2 arrows at a time which stops him for a second but is ultimately not too effective. He then hops on the troll's shoulders and tries to shoot one through the skull but it bounces off. At this point he realizes the troll's only true weakpoint, so he stays patient and waits for Pippen and Merry to make it rear its head back and puts a well placed arrow in the roof of its mouth through the brain for the kill.
It's a natural progression of Legolas' thought process and it's so well-done, you don't even think about it unless you rewatch multiple times.
Never noticed this before, I love your analysis
ha! thats awesome
Thank you for this. amazing.
Details like that just add to the incredible nature of those movies
Watched the movies at least 15 times and never noticed that detail (the connection/improvement between all the shots). Great sense for cinema !
"The elf that has permission to speak" is the best description of that character ever
FOR REAL!
that's so sad...
the teenage elf apprentice
The elf that has permission to speak actually made a lot of sense in his complaints not gonna lie
12:20 POV - how feminist/ woke people imagine a strong leader
Whenever writers try to write strong female characters, they just end up being everything they supposedly hate about so-called "toxic masculinity": arrogant, haughty, stoic, careless, ruthless, brutal, unfeeling, and selfish.
Watching that first scene in LotR just demonstrates how fight scenes aren't a break from character development.
Exactly. If anything fight scenes are a chance to instantly characterize someone and they chose this shite instead
That's because they don't have any problems with all the traits they label as "toxic masculinity." They just have a problem with MEN having them. They view masculinity as inherently strong and femininity as weak, which is why they make their women "masculine" and their men "feminine." It's all a power play for feminists, and that power play is about flipping the tables.
as bruce lee once said, "a fight scene should be like a small play". it should be just two or more people punching each other. there should be a small story in a fight scene.
Yep because they in the woke delusional feelings. True masculinity, leadership is Aaregon
Its actually them writing female characters as the caricatures of male characters they have in their mind. While the actual male characters of LOTR are flawed, complex, and need to support each other to win battles and keep moving forward on their quest.
Don’t forget that it took the Fellowship their combined strength and effort to take down that cave troll. GuyLadriel on the other hand killed the snow troll on her own under 10 seconds.
Not to mention that the other elves, who were supposed to be battle hardened war veterans from the War of Wrath, couldn’t even scratch it. The fricking hobbits were more useful than the most powerful and skilled warriors in Middle Earth!
The real Galadriel would have felt the Troll was there, and it would have taken a look at her and FLED.
She passed the test.... Bechdel test.
feminism destroys everything that is good
Thats exactly what I was thinking! The cave troll was a true danger for the fellowship. The troll in rings of power on the other hand was just there to show how cOoL galadriel is.
Galadriel's battle with the Ice Troll takes place thousands of years after the War of Wrath. There's no guarantee that those elves that followed her were even around during the First Age. They might have been young and inexperienced elves compared to her.
Not to mention the cave troll fight, which teaches the fellowship that they can all work together to defeat a foe, perfectly sets up the Balrog..
"This foe is beyond any of you."
Which only makes Gandalf's sacrifice for the Fellowship all the more heart-wrenching in my opinion.
It also makes the Balrog a gazillion times scarier (not that it wasn't already)... precisely because they've all got nearly killed by a troll a moment ago, now there's something even more dangerous right around the corner. Goddamn, it's all so well done it's frightening... literally.
What makes Gandalf's sacrifice even more saddening is the fact that, according to the lore in the books, Balrogs are great creatures of the Maiar (which in short terms are great powerful spirits) who cannot be killed by normal weapons. Thus, Gandalf is the only one who's able to stand toe-to-toe with it, since:
1. He is a great and powerful wizard. Not just any wizard, but one of the Istari, the most powerful wizards in Middle-Earth. It was even said that while he may be the last of them, he was no doubt the strongest of them.
2. He carried Glamdring, a powerful blade forged in the First Age (LOTR takes place in the Third Age).
No matter if Aragon's swordsmanship was excellent or if Frodo was protected by Mithril armor. If any or all of them tried to face the Balrog, they'd all end up dead in the first few moments of combat.
Gandalf is also a maiar
@@senbonzakura6958 Yea. Balrogs are fallen angels so to speak in the Tolkien universe. They got corrupted by Morgoth somewhere along the way. They would also be unlikely to follow Sauron because they would view him as equal at best.
@@mercenarydelta7351Balrogs are not creatures of the Maiar, they are Maiar (same as Gandalf, Saruman, Sauron, etc).
1. Gandalf was not the last of the wizards. All 5 of the wizards who were sent to middle earth are still alive at this point. Gandalf also wasn’t the most powerful at this point, that would be the leader of their order Saruman the White(hence we see him kick Gandalf’s butt earlier in the movie). It’s not until Gandalf is “promoted” to the title “the White” (by I believe Eru Iluvitar himself, aka God) that he could be considered the most powerful Istari.
2. He also has an elven ring of power.
What I really like about the Moria fight scene is how all the members of the fellowship are all practically constantly saving and helping each other. Most of their actions were to save a fellow member from being killed. It makes the fight much more deep and enjoyable.
"Alone, you are mighty.
Together, you are legends."
- Professor Charles Xavier
It makes it a dynamic scene. So much going on. I didn't remember a third of what happened until I re-re-re-re watched it today.
I like the part when the cave troll using it's chain as a weapon
It's a cool fight scene
yes. they all earned the Civic Crown.
also add peril to the fight, any of the heroes could die at any moment and it's a constant battle to stay alive.
One of my favorite things about this trilogy has to be the juxtaposition between goblins and Uruk-hai. You might be inclined to ask, "How're the hobbits, who have no combat experience, staying alive against these creatures?" Then you remember that they're merely fighting goblins. What happens when the hobbits try to fight an Uruk? They get carried off like children and spend the first third of the second film unable to do anything against them.
Exactly! That is something that really bothered me in the Hobbit trilogy, how these "great white orcs" were portrayed. They were huge! Why did they need urukhai if those orcs existed? Orcs were suppose to me human-size, twisted and tormented ex-elves, and shy away from daylight. And then you have Azog, with a SON, Bolg, enjoying the day and they're huge beefcakes and it just feels.... wrong!
There were always different sized Orcs described in the lore. Even in LOTR there are the big black Uruks from Mordor and the much smaller Orcs from the Misty Mountains. Azog was mentioned in LOTR, too, as being a "great Orc" and the leader of the Orcs of Moria. @@vinuristhebest
@@mif1118 Actually you made it make sense to me. And Saruman needs a better "genepool" to breed uruk-hai from other orks I guess.
And yet Aragorn Gimli and Legolas cut them all down with ease.
@@ridanzswerd215 Yeah well Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas are all "champions", not many could outperform them.
Also I want to point out that in TLOTR when they prepare for the fight the characters each do something that represents there nature. Boromir being someone who lives to protect his people is upfront ready to be the first into danger. Aragorn commands the hobbits on where to go and stays back with the rest of the group. Showing how he is natural as a leader but wants to deny the roll as he feels he is not worthy and stays with rest of the group. Legolas staying in between everyone so he can help who ever needs it the most. Gimli standing on Balins Tomb showing his great love for his family and how he seeks to protect the ones he cares for even in death. Gandalf staying with the hobbits showing his great love and compassion for them. And the hobbits in the back farthest from the fight but end up doing some of the greatest deeds in the battle.
Especially Sam with his frying pan, i rewatched it and counted like 5 or 6 orcs he just takes out with it
thats beautiful analysis, lots of things i havent realized in 20 years
@@alexsass6539 absolutly. i copied that out of the Lotro (lord of the rings online) page. the game is kinda meh. needs a lot of love to be great again but i love what they did there:
Gameplay: Guardians wear heavy armour and have many defensive skills that allow them to survive battles against the most fearsome foes. Guardians also have skills that draw foes' attention away from their allies and themselves. In Fellowships, a Guardian forces enemies to attack himself or herself, so his or her more fragile allies will not be harmed by foes.
Lore: The Guardians are the stout protectors of the weak, and defenders of those in need. They are loyal companions to the end. True Guardians stand in the forefront of battle, shielding allies from enemy assaults.
This class was inspired by the hobbit Samwise Gamgee, whose loyalty to Frodo Baggins knew no bounds.
they had many characters they could have chosen for the guardian but they chose sam
@@alexsass6539 Sam is the coolest one there. He carries a bag full, plus helps Frodo.
Aragorn commands the hobbits, but then helps Boromir bar the door, which also builds on their pre-existing dynamic.
The real LOTR just gets better with time.
it seems so ahead of its time, whenever i watch most late 90s/early 2000s feel they still have that sort of 80s/90s vibe, but LOTR takes you to a new world, the visual effects even hold up... it's just amazing
Like a fine wine
I remember watching peter jackson's movies and loving it... but with the announcement of this fking travesty, it ignighted my interest in reading the source material. I'm now starting fellowship and by god it even just the hobbit and the appendices are better than anything I've read in terms of story telling to the point I'm wondering why there isn't an official religion dedicated to these books.
Where do I sign up for the church of tolkien.
@@SanguinaryGuard Well I mean you can get a job reading and explaining his books. Pretty sure that counts.
Modern Hollywood trash can make the old "bad" movies look good.
No surprise a timeless masterpiece will look much better.
For me the worst part of the scene, Apart from thinking chainmail hoodies will protect you from the cold is when she kills the cave troll she flicks blood onto the camera!
Implying there is a camera man in the scene. This is never repeated in the rest of the series.
It actually is repeated once more in the fight scene in the first comparison video when the orc pulls the knife out his eye some of it's blood does a splatter effect on the camera. Not sure if there are any other times where that happens but it is quite possible it does.
I was really wondering why they were wearing chainmail hoodies. Wouldn't that just make their heads even colder??
it is to make it look cool and amazing. action. yay
What they should have worn were wool knitted chain mail hoodies like the ones they had in Monty Pythons Search for the Holy Grail!
"6 companions by her side"
The funny thing is, depending on the moment of the scene you watch, there are from nine to five guys in Galadriel's company, it's actually crazy how bad it was filmed
Shows the effort in this serie, a true disgrace
Yea i remember writing that part and having no idea how many there was it kept changing
Also notice how their health bars replenished once they were out of combat.
"The funny thing is, depending on the moment of the scene you watch, there are from nine to five guys in Galadriel's company, it's actually crazy how bad it was filmed"
Maybe she just ran so far ahaed again that the rest of the elves weren't in the picture :)
@@zorax15 If the showrunners went with that excuse, then it still shows Not-Galadriel as a terrible leader. It's a lose-lose.
the troll scene in LOTR told us a lot: the growing bond and eternal friendship between gimli and legolas. the respect growing between boromir and aragon. the familal kinship of merry and pippin. gandalf's protection of the hobbits. sam's devotion to frodo. and how frodo was the core of the group.
the troll scene in ROP told us one thing: guyladriel is awesome and don't need no man. or men in this case.
Why would she need help to fight off a troll? Her uncles and siblings are basically one-man armies in Tolkien's lore. It seems you haven't read any of it.
@@MrCmon113 Just because her uncles were great fighters, doesn’t mean she is one. Do you think the combat XP is divided among the family?
@@MrCmon113 so if she's a one man army.........why does she need an army at all?
@Taxtro Then why do warriors the caliber of Legolas and Aragorn etc. along with a powerful wizard struggle against a troll. Why not just have Aragorn solo it? This is considering Aragorn is way cooler than Guyladriel btw.
@@MrCmon113 That's the thing though, that scene doesn't show any of that. It's just the Elves get fucked, Galadriel runs in and does some video game-looking moves. All it does is make the troll look pathetic, her pals look pathetic and the show look pathetic.
One of my favorite lines in the Moria scene is when Boromir looks back and calmly says, _"They have a Cave Troll."_ You can see that it's almost out of resignation. I've heard other people complain that the line was somehow "boring" or something, but I think it was just perfect. Like his heart had just bounced off his testicles. Our D&D gaming group quoted that line for years after the movie came out.
It's a masterclass in subtlety in delivery, and leadership in character. When you're delivering information on the battlefield, the last thing you want to do is sound hyperactive and panicked. You need to let your team know the situation without inciting chaos.
I dont feel it like leadership, I feel it like Boromir saying "Well... We are fucked", thus the resignation in his voice
Another one of these moments is when Gandalf announces, that there is a Balrog of Morgoth. Threre is one second frame on Legolase´s face and at that moment only he comprehends how much they are screwed...
@@ZRRero But still, no hysteria. Perhaps a smidge of resignation, but he still went on to kicked ass rather than cower in the corner. _THAT_ is bravery. Not being without fear but throwing your all against fear.
well Boromir is supposed to be a seasoned field commander and warrior. Knowing he's travelling with people who have even more experience. Calmly stating the information they need and can comprehend right away without losing temper is the right way to go for him. Also, he's already fought trolls in Gondor and probably lost men to them, hence the tone of someone knowing he's in for a harsh battle.
A small thing right at the start of the battle, there's a moment where you can see Boromir step in front of Aragorn when the goblins are closing in, so that Aragorn can draw his sword. Such a tiny detail, blink and you'll miss it, but it really helps the team feel like... you know, a team?
That's a fantastic detail, never noticed that before. And that means Boromir has to trust that Aragorn isn't going to second-guess which weapon to use so that he isn't stepping into the path of another arrow.
great attention to detail mate, that was both a tactical and brotherly move
At where exactly i couldn't even see it.
Wow i never noticed that! Nice one!
I love how many still find the tiniest little details from the fight after all these years, and just show how great this masterpiece is
Please don’t not stop making scene comparisons. Talk about the entire emotions ark of lotr compared to rings of power. The weight of the story. The momentum is what I am speaking about
Yes
@@alupha_216 yes
Just got recommend the first part and I'm so glad the algorithm worked this time. Can't wait to see more content!
That kung fu fight against big chungus orc was pretty hilarious and full of wires. And the way the guy was slammed against five stone walls without a single injury.
@@alexandrel6344 and how can anyone with active brain cells watch that scene and not laugh or think what the fuck is this. How will billions of dollars is there a complete lack of realism. It’s “fantasy action” in the worst way. Like ballet dancers instead of world war 1 trenches
I watched "Fellowship of the Ring" many times and always paid close attention to the battle scene with the cave troll. The continuity of the scene is amazing. There are no skips or blocked views. There is no 'fourth wall' convention as in watching a theater play. All sides of the room are shown, the layout inside the room is clear. The position in the room of each character is continuous as they move about or flung back. Its like a choreographed ballet. Superb.
It's astounding how well the LoTR films have withstood the test of time. Over 20yrs later, they're still the most incredible films of Hollywood.
It's more amazing when you realize that in order to make the Hobbits look small, they had to build *two sets at different scales* and use forced perspective when the Big Folk are with them! And the scene is still perfect!
@@bbgun061 It still amazes me how they made John Rhys-Davies (Gimli) so small looking, he's over 6 feet but the illusion of his dwarf size is perfect
And it’s not like it was a spacious room either, it is pretty tight for the fellowship, the orcs, and the lumbering cave troll. But the director made full use of every square foot of space, and how each member navigated through that room with columns and ledges.
We will never again get something like this filmed with so much Passion and love...
I also love when Aaragorn saves Boromir, they *dont* do some corny “took you long enough!” Or “who’s your king now?” Line or whatever
He nods like “you good?” And Boromir nods back like “I’m good, thanks to you my dude”
gentlemen indeed.
It's the degree of in universe seriousness that the movies (mostly) had. Real people don't talk like modern Hollywood hacks write them, this reaction is so much more realistic.
If only they kissed 👉👈
That's what I like, while they have a conflicting relationship, but on the battlefield they're the same, no word needed.
so.... i knew it was bad, but then watching your videos and seeing exactly how bad it is? this is like some sort of a crime against humanity
it is a crime against humanity.
@@knabdank its so bad that it will ruin your life
@@Richwiking318 audience abuse
@@scambammer6102 I'm still trying to recover with the help of a shrink.
same here man, i thought It was okish but holy shits its bad xD
It's so funny that a 2-3 hour long movie can pack so much more character developments than a multi-episode series...
Even if you stop watching after the mines of Moria, it did more character development than the entire series.
I mean honestly LOTR pack more character development than even all time great shows, thats how good it is. But Rings of Power was total garbage.
Was is and always will be garbage. I havent watched a single episode of rings of power cuz i knew it was going to be another massive woke flop. Its incredibly funny and sad at the same time that we can predict the fate of an entire show from a single trailer these days...@@eshw23
Well it's more like 3 3-hour movies but yeah.
@@bocelotthe’s clearly talking about this single film guy.
Galadriel was shown to be the most caring person in middle-earth, I can't imagine her ignoring one of her own men.
Amazon's Galadriel was young and impulsive. Give her a couple of centuries to wise up... Which makes no sense when we remember that:
- she grew up in Valinor, among the Valar and Maiar;
- she lived for centuries with Melian, one of the wisest Maia;
- at the time of the Rings of Power, she was one of the oldest elf, if the the oldest elf.
@@ghyslainabel Yeah, I remember being confused when they said that younger Galadriel is young and impulsive. At that point in time she is about 6000 years old somewhere in her 5000s at the youngest so she is already pretty old. There are elves older than her around still such as Cirdan the Shipwright who was the oldest elf in middle earth and was one of the elves that woke up in the very beginning when elves were first created if I remember correctly if I am not missing canon and fanon.
@@gregoryschweitzer1735That shows you how much Amazon totally ingored the original lore.
yeah thats dumb AF@@ghyslainabel
@@eshw23 why wouldn’t it? Amazon is going solely and exclusively for money. It just attracts people who convinced themselves to like lotr to buy its product
Sauron acts less evil...even the orcs show more compassion for each other than Gallladrreil does for even her "friends".
Honestly its like an AI wrote this pile of shit. I dont like leaving comments like this that get people riled up over films/series but it really is just a massive middle finger to everyone
@@mooncat7009I Usually I just state my opinion of the show and move on....I don't pick fights with people who liked the series...but I do make it a point to try to annoy the dummies who are attacking those who don't like this crappy series.
@@mr.s2005 the show isn’t that bad even thought it doesn’t feel connected to the trilogy book series. Lord of the Ring fans should at least appreciate and acknowledge the cast and editors that put countless hours and stress into making this series for 5 years. Film making isn’t an easy job, especially when it comes to trying to please their viewers. Haters don’t understand the lengths of workers had to do to make the show good as possible but it’s impossible to please everyone
@@coffeelink943nobody is ever bashing people who are just doing their job (although I would argue that they also kinda underdelivered, like prop makers with their armor, or CGI department, which couldn’t bother to make numenor fleet bigger than three dingy boats). Hell I for one never blame the actors even, they are just tools in the hands of a director. People who are to blame are directors, writers, producers and showrunners along with people who conceived this abomination.
@@mooncat7009 And by pile of shit you obviously mean Jackson's lotr movies?
It's a great detail that Pippin is the last one on the troll and that his stab, is part of what created the opening for Legolas to kill it. It shows Pippin really tried to make amends for his mistake, as well as fighting for his friends.
Pippin absolutely overcomes his early mistakes. By Return of the King, he's confident, brave, and saves Faramir's life. He's also loyal and humble, signing up to fight even though the steward thinks it's a joke. He doesn't want to be a leader or a hero, he just wants to do his part to help. He doesn't have to be the strongest warrior to do all that.
The cave troll scene in LOTR is so awesome you could watch it frame by frame and still see new details years later. No one is just standing waiting for their turn to swing, every orc, hobbit, dwarf, man and second of action is accounted for and plays out perfectly.
they do stand and wait, but they do it in a "Need to find an opening and not be thrown on the other side of the room" instead of "oh you are fighting, I'll respect that and let you kill my ally and wait my turn".
Like we see Gimli go in, hit, retreat.. and wait for another chance to go in, while the troll is just wailing all over.
crazy how even the fight between fordo/sam vs the spider in book 3 is better than almost any CGI fight made since.
Merry and Pippin jumping on the Troll was so powerful to 12 year old me seeing it for the first time... The smallest, weakest of the group overcoming their fear and taking on the biggest threat in the room out of pure sense of duty to their friends... Everything in this movie, down to the elements of action scenes, has a purpose and a meaning that ties back to the big themes. Masterpiece.
What stands out for me, re-watching the scene, is how quickly and well it establishes Aragorn as a capable leader and why his companions show him respect *as* a leader. Throwing his sword to save Boromir costs him a valuable weapon in the midst of a thick fight, but he doesn't hesitate to sacrifice some of his own capability to save an ally. RoP's Galadriel seems like she would allow her entire company to perish rather than risk a chance to show off her sword-spinning.
Agree with the sentiment, but not the details. Look carefully, he threw Boromir's sword into the orc, not his own.
He also jumps in front of the troll and tries to kill it with a pike when it corners Frodo. Sure that same pike almost killed Frodo shortly after, but Aragorn tried his best and clearly understood the stakes.
@@ScurvyMcGruff I c wut u did there.
She's a Karen isn't she 😂
If you are talking about the extended edition then he did not throw his sword but Boromir's sword at the goblin.
I think one of the most important parts of seeing the difference between the movies and the series, is that no one in the movies is truly overpowered, invincible, or just so good at fighting that it’s not even a challenge. It took the entire fellowship to take down one cave troll, but even then seemingly just barely and almost killing Frodo. In the series, Galadriel watches a cave troll mow down her group, then does a fucking gymnastic backflip and kills the troll in one shot, landing the move. There was no struggle, no teamwork, and no consequences. They all walk out completely fine, so if they were to just completely cut this scene out there would be no way of telling.
It literally makes no impact on the story. Her companions are never seen again. Its was just to show off how badass she is.
So many things I love about that fight in Moria. You pointed out a lot of them, but I wanted to add a few:
- Camerawork and drum sounds at 1:45 are masterful. I felt true terror as a kid seeing that camera going down the well into the darkness, panning around frantically, seeing nothing -- but hearing those drums of impending doom.
- The music starting at 2:01 so perfectly captures the feeling of intense fear and anxiety.
- The timing and sound of the goblin howl at 2:03 is perfect. Such a memorable sound. Peter Jackson and his crew made the orcs feel so real throughout the trilogy.
- You don't show it, but "They have a cave troll" is probably my favorite line from the whole scene. Delivered in a perfectly brusque tone by Sean Bean -- Boromir has probably fought similar abominations before (perhaps even the armored Olog-hai we see during the battle of Minas Tirith), and is mostly just annoyed that the upcoming battle is going to be even more difficult than it would have already been, what with needing to protect four hobbits.
- It's also not really shown in this video, but I love the detail of the difference between Aragorn and Legolas as they stand ready with their bows. Aragorn is still a decent archer, being a Dunedain ranger, but his stance is much more unsteady compared to Legolas'. That's the difference a few thousand more years practicing archery will make.
- Beginning around 2:42, we can hear the distinctive battle cries of each member of the Fellowship. Don't know why, but I just love how easily you can identify which character is making which cry. There's only one character who is basically silent throughout the fight, and that is Legolas -- totally befitting of Elven grace and composure.
- Beginning at 2:58, we get a few reactions of the Fellowship to seeing the troll. Unlike the Rings of Power troll fight, this troll is an actual threat. It takes multiple hits from and the near deaths of virtually every member of the Fellowship to take the thing down. It isn't just dispatched with godlike efficiency by one character after the rest of the group proves themselves to be utterly incompetent, as is the case in the Rings of Power scene (where Galadriel's companions include supposedly elite Elven warriors, and not Men and Hobbits).
- The renewed ferocity that Merry, Pippin, Sam, and Gandalf are shown to fight with after Frodo gets stabbed at 4:48 is beautiful. It shows the human side of all of them (adrenaline coursing through you after an incident that instills rage or fear in you) as well as the extent to which they care for Frodo.
- At 6:09, the battle is over, but there is no happiness, no gloating, only a momentary sense of relief, and we as the viewer are even made to feel a bit sorry for the troll as we witness its final few moments. I remember from watching the behind the scenes of LoTR that Peter Jackson commented on how this troll was probably quite an innocent creature that had been enslaved by the orcs for their own purposes, and how, somewhere out there, there might be a troll mother whose child would not be returning to her. You can see those thoughts reflected in the way the scene is directed. The troll is still a threat, and must be dispatched, but it is brought to the fight in chains, and in its last moments just seems hurt and confused. You feel like this didn't have to happen the way it did. It's just a nice bit of nuance added in, and it makes the main enemy of this fight more than just an evil monster to be killed.
With all of that said, I have absolutely nothing good to say about the Rings of Power troll fight. Nothing at all.
Regarding the troll's death, it really felt like it went from angry bloodlust to trying to survive to pure panic like a cornered animal would.
I agree with everything, but to be that guy for a moment, I just want to point out that the trolls at Minas Tirith were just armoured mountain trolls. The only Olog-hai we see in the movies is what Aragorn fights at the black gate.
The olog hai were in return of the king?
Only seen the theatrical versions?
very well put!!
Zoë from Firefly, Ripley from Aliens, Sam from SG1, Starbuck - Laura Roslin - Athena - Dualla - Cally - Racetrack - Kat from Battlestar Galactica, Eowyn - Arwen - Galadriel from jackson's lotr, Lagertha from Vikings....All good examples of how to make a strong badass female character without making them appear as arrogant, cold and unrelatable.
So much inspiration out there and these writers F'd it up
Its just frustrating when theres blueprints everywhere to learn from. Check out arcane if you want to add to that list with recent examples
@@jedibrooks7235 will do!
even an arrogant or cold female character like Olivia from Fringe has more depth in her acting where you can empathize with her in a sense.
I would add Alita on that list.
Craziest thing is. They could have just taken inspiration from .. and here it comes I know its incredibly outside of the box.. Galadriel from LOTR.
She was right there. Almost angelic. Full of power. Wise. Deliberate. Scary in a way.
Boromir's delivery of "they have a cave troll." is maybe a top-3 "oh sh**" moment from the entire triology
“Elf eyes don’t see SHIT anymore, apparently” 😂😂 got me giggling way too hard with that one
I know for a fact that the writers agenda was to create a ‘strong independent woman’ character but they actually did the complete opposite.
They created a toxic b*tch everybody hated and who hated everybody.
you can't be "independant" and " a commander of armies" at the same time. One of the many things they didn't get.
brain washed by woke culture. They do not understand what a true masculine leader is
Maybe that's the point. Young women these days don't have much role models and everyone watches TV/streaming. These are supposed to be a role model of a strong woman but really she's just the most unlikable person possible. Again, that's probably the point.
They created a toxic male character in female form. If we don't want those in male form, please writers, don't give them to us in female form. They're just as bad and for the same reasons.
Mentioning Legolas in Moria, on of the eastereggs I love the most is when the balrog is mentioned for the first time and nobody has any clue what are they facing, but Legolas remembers them well and you can see that on his face.
Another detail from the scene of Fellowship is how, once the fighting is over, they look at the troll's corpse, with a strange sense of sadness. They knew they HAD to kill it. They didn't enjoy bringing an innocent, scared creature enslaved by the orcs to its demise, and they saw the loss of life for what it was: a tragedy.
Galadriel on the other hand... well. It's hard to tell if she even is capable of such empathy and compassion.
Guy ladriel, please 😄
Pretty sure that's not what they were thinking and that's not how Tolkien's world works. Trolls aren't mindless animals. They are just another incarnation of Morgoth's evil. Every troll is evil just like every orc is evil.
@@SylvEdu True, but it would be plausible, and I think it that sentiment doesn't worsen that scene. I watched the movies before reading anything of Tolkien and that's how I felt too. Same thing for the Oliphaunts. The Oliphaunts themselves are also described as being somewhat evil, but in the movie I couldn't help but feel sorry for them.
@@SylvEduI guess there's nothing wrong with being sorry for evil 😢
@@SylvEduthe point is that death is a tragedy.
When a 45 second fight scene between Aragorn and Lurtz is better than the entire 10+ hours of Rings of Power.
Rings of power made by people with 0 effort or talent.
The cave troll fight also establishes how reliant the hobbits are on the other members of the fellowship for safety and guidance, wherea RoP wastes no time in showing us how little Galadriel needs anybody. Plus showing Gollum close up while Frodo is still guarded by others just makes him feel so much more dangerous later on when the Hobbits get deprived of this safety.
I think what's so off-putting about Galadriel in RoP is that it feels like she's simultaneously done her character arc but also just starting it. She's already the best warrior in any room. She is far stronger, both metally and physically, than her veteran friends. She should be Ben Kenobi or Gandalf, NOT the main protagonist. Instead, in this story, she's not a wise mentor. She's one of the oldest beings in middle earth and she's childish, impulsive, uncaring, and just a general asshole, which makes it seem like she actually still needs to learn things.
Her childishness (which doesn't make sense, but whatever) sets her up to learn how to lead throughout the story. In fact, everything in this scene that isn't the payoff is setting up for this. She ignores the reasonable questions of her men, leads them into mortal danger despite *any* evidence to support her theory, watches them get abused by a cave troll, and gets mutinied for it. That's a character that needs to learn. But she takes down the troll by herself so apparently she doesn't need to learn anything and her companions just need to get good. And the story just runs with that as if "I hit things good" is a reason to not have to change and grow.
To be clear, an arc during which 5000-year-old Galadriel who has already been through multiple wars learns how to lead makes absolutely no sense, but at least it would make the character feel finished. Instead it feels like the writers couldn't decide whether to make her an actual character or not and got halfway through before deciding to just make her an unstoppable, insufferable god.
Ian McKellen's reading of the Book of Mazarbul still gives me massive chills, even taken out of context like this. I daresay there are no modern films that are this evocative. Quality like that is not produced these days.
The end, when he says, “They are coming”, still sends a chill through me. Sir Ian McKellen is one of the best actors and my favorite in Jackson’s LOTR trilogy.
Drums. Drums in the deep.
7:43 is the moment when we see one of her first interactions and you can see how triggered, a bit angry and offended she is for a mere fact the her soldier DARED to speak to her. It looks like she already assumed that whatever he will say is somehow wrong.
Sounds like a typical marriage! 😆
@@yad-thaddag Then it's a bad one. Why would you marry someone who doesn't like you? This is such a boring cliché. You either are unhappily married, or don't actually know anything about marriage.
And the thing is, this scene could have worked. Had they developed that soldier the be the *whiner* of the group, constantly over centuries to be the one to argue going back, to complain about going to hostile places.
But because this is not developed, any of that context misses from the scene and it falls flat and only shows Galadriel as arrogant, instead of being determined to fullfill the mission.
It's because he's a stupid man, of course. How dare he even speak to the strong independent woman badass!
The best possible interpretation, is Galadriel gets pissed off because she knows she's breaking Gil Galad's orders by continuing and she doesn't like being reminded of that.
Making the character dynamic even worse, somehow.
I think a better alternative would've been to portray her as caring and compassionate taking the time to support her men and maybe even have a campsite scene to flesh out her team. Then she could decide to abandon the mission and as they make their way back they get stranded in a blizzard and after wandering aimlessly stumble upon the lost fortress (not the best alternative but better than what we got). They didnt need to make her hate everyone around her.
The more you analyse the LoTR trilogy, the more you come to love and respect it. THAT is the hallmark of an excellently written show/movie
Note the great character-building payoff with the smallest of details, at the 2:20 mark in your video. When Legolas throws the ax to Boromir to barricade the door, it's such a small moment, but it shows us several critical things that differentiate LotR from Rings of Power. This scene shows us that both Legolas and Boromir are warriors (competent for the situation), they both understand the gravity of the situation (have good judgement), and they're both prioritizing the mission/team over whatever prior disagreements they had or whatever distrust exists between men, elves and dwarves (upstanding character).
In one second, we see several things, including their backgrounds/training/competence, their motivations, and their character. They could have argued over how best to defend the attack, or started with their own defensive plans (being utterly egocentric, as Amazon loves to do with its characters). They could have bungled the barricading for increased dramatic effect (displaying incompetence, something else Amazon is obsessed with, producing incompetent characters). They could have pulled out superhero moves (again, Amazon loves this as a plot device for its protagonists and utilized it in their troll fight). But they did none of these things. Instead they demonstrated why they are respectable and commendable characters worth investing in.
(edited for grammar and spelling)
And not only in this scene. Whole trilogy. They fight as a team. While in RoP all they focused on was making Guyladriel look badass.
FOTR troll was so well portrayed as a foe to be reckoned with, that it enhanced the scene where 3 armored trolls broke into the gates of Gondor in ROTK, as well as Aragorn's losing fight with the troll at the Black Gate.
Yo I just finished watch all 3 extended editions of lotr and holy shit they only get better and better. There is so much more emotional weight scene by scene in all 3 movies than rings of power could ever hope to reach. I will ALWAYS remember the entire fellowships scream and rally to fight as soon as the goblins come rushing in. The pure adrenaline and courage can be absolutely felt
Extended editions?, like extra scenes?
Gotta say the scenes with Éowyn were justly cut in the theatrical edition. The scene with Saruman's death should 100% have been in there tho.
@@alupha_216 Yeah but not just deleted scenes like DVD extras, the scenes are edited into the film complete with score and special effects
@@alupha_216 the extended editions are better
@@scambammer6102 wow, I’ve watched LOTR more than twice and never knew about this, thanks I’ll definitely check them out
I like that Sam is duel wielding a dagger and a frying pan. It fits his character perfectly.
Guyladriel fighting reminds me of a Steven Segal fight scene. No one ever manages to touch him and he wipes the floor with everyone in seconds making the whole thing pointless.
Her entire family are basically one-man-armies in the lore.
@@MrCmon113 It's true. Her family are particularly badass especially her uncle Fingolfin (in my opinion). As is Galadriel but she is never really described as a warrior is she? It's more to do with being one of the wisest and intelligent elves along with her ill defined magical powers such as reading minds and telepathy.
I would also point out that her entire family (that travelled to Middle Earth) is dead pretty much so certainly weren't perfect. Other than Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen who is left alive of her family?
@@T-1001 It´s mentioned that she was a good fighter
@@T-1001I still don’t get how creators of the show think that her being warrior is an upgrade not downgrade of the character
@@danzansandeev6033 I think it's the whole 'strong female character' thing. Strength only comes in the form of physical prowess in their limited view. And they have to be independent hence her abandoning her men readily and the erasure of her husband and daughter. But like you say it's a downgrade.
Galadriel's characterization here was intentional, of course, but watching this got me thinking about the design or writing philosophies of the different writers. Especially in what it means to write a "flawed hero."
Boromir is a hero. He is brave and strong and is generally good to his companions, as well as working well with others in battle. He loves his homeland and his people. However, he becomes so desperate to save and protect his homeland that he just might be willing to do something bad to protect it. The ring detects that in him and uses it to corrupt him, and in a moment of weakness and madness he tries to take the ring from Frodo. When he fails and the ring loses its hold on him, he is immediately horribly sorry, and his character arc bends towards redemption. When he falls, fighting bravely for the sake of others, it is tragic and emotional. And when Aragorn comes, he is able to have one last heartfelt conversation before he dies, acknowledging Aragorn as his king and entrusting the future to others.
When Gandalf calls Pippin "a fool of a Took" for looking into the Palantir, we know that Pippin means well, but he's still got quite a bit of "curious hobbit" in him, and he and the other hobbits seem like they're in way over their heads in this adventure. But still, Pippin loves the other hobbits, he's good-natured, and when a hobbit is brave, it feels like a different kind of bravery than when an elite warrior is brave. You can also see his friendliness when he and Merry bond with the Ents.
But when the "Rings of Power" writers write a character flaw for Galadriel...they write a character that is very nearly a villain.
And when I think about that, I get to thinking I've seen a number of shows where the heroes or protagonists are unlikeable and very nearly villains. Or at least, I think I've seen quite a few shows start like that on Netflix, but I don't usually keep watching to the end. Such shows and "heroes" grow annoying.
More on Boromir, he's also a natural born leader. You can SEE this, though it is also explained, by how he is sparring with Merry and Pippin prior to Moria, the way he challenges Aragorn to "Give them a moment, for pity's sake!" after Moria etc. I think there is a very subtle development where Aragorn learns how to be a better leader FROM Boromir; Aragorn initially is very direct and abrupt with the Hobbits since the Prancing Pony. When I was younger I thought Boromir was the bad human because he was the one that was trying to take the Ring, but when you take a deep look at it and see what he does its clear that he's a charismatic and KIND leader. He's flawed, and he eventually redeems himself just before perishing.
And think about this: Aragorn needs to learn to be kinder to the hobbits. And yet he isn't half as much of a dick to the hobbits as Galadriel is to the companions she's been traveling with for centuries.
The ultimate mistake of making Galadriel into whatever she was in RoP was that she didn't even change her ways. Her apathy and thirst for vengeance/affirmation that the enemy is fully eradicated *could* feasibly have been explored, pulled apart, over the course of the episodes. But that would require a complete revision of Tolkien's world. We know from the lore (and the movies for that matter) that Galadriel will be correct in her assumption of Sauron's survival. We know the writers weren't intending to challenge her characterization, or play with the idea she might be... *gasp* MISGUIDED. or made to be unreasonable via grief. No, she was justified in her crusade. So all those minimum-wage elf scouts should've just shut up! And Numenor should've listened to her from the start! Because she was right all along! Unflinchingly trust in her cold, inflexible methods! She's so bold and inspiring for happening to be an oracle!
Clearly in the writer's eyes, those aren't even supposed to be flaws. I mean, damn if that's the model of the boss babe female leader feminism wants women to aspire to, then God have mercy on those women's employees.
I generally agree, although even the LOTR films (as much as I love them) have some poor writing for Boromir e.g. in the Council of Elrond, he starts walking towards the ring like someone possessed and extends his hand to take it. Gandalf has to start speaking in the black tongue to stop him. He seems pretty evil from that first scene. They should have been more subtle imo.
Very astute observations.
Great video. The "elf eyes don't see shit, apparently" line had me laughing.
I haven't watched LOTR in too long, what a great scene!
One cave troll almost kills three of the nine members of the fellowship. The fellowship includes several experienced soldiers or fighters, which we are reminded of in the way they jump into action.
Gandalf earlier recounted how 'we have barred the gates.'
They hear drums in the deep, Boromir rushes to close the doors, Legolas spies a bar with his elf eyes, throws it to Aragorn who helps Boromir brace the doors. This action is repeated, further displaying their combat knowledge, but also showing how this fellowship comes together in a crisis. They must've gained somewhat of an understanding of each others strengths, having travelled vast distances together. They didn't just teleport across the continent - coz "plot." Awesome visual storytelling in LotR.
Now, in TRoP, Galadriel has been leading a small team of soldiers all across middle earth for a thousand years when they find this cave in the snow. Elf npc #1 sees a cave troll and runs back to the group. Elf npcs #2 and #3 stand in the open, bow and sword drawn, with no cover and no attempt to gain a better position. Are these elven warriors who have already survived war and been travelling together for centuries? How the hell did they survive that long? I guess them all being fine at the end of the fight shows... they're just that resilient? Because it wasn't their apparent lack of fighting experience or teamwork.
Then Galadriel kills the troll like it's not a problem at all; barely an inconvenience. Way to take all the power away from the troll - like Tom Bombadil
holding the ring of power and dismissing it at the start of the story. They omitted the Tom Bombadil encounter from the movies for that reason - it immediately takes all the power away from the ring. Don't include a dangerous troll in your story if it's not a danger. Garbage visual storytelling in TRoP.
I love the scenes within moria, seeing the scale of the hall of Dwarrowdelf, the bridge of kahzad-dûm, the mines full of mithril and Balins tomb, the fellowship taking a break while Gandalf find his bearings at the three doors, it speaks to the storyteller within us all to see something so magnificent yet so completely abandoned and full of long dead dwarves, tables and chairs thrown everywhere and heavy coatings of spiderwebs, especially after hearing the tales of dwarvish customs and parties from Gimli just beforehand, a new viewer would expect it to be a nice relaxing moment before being faced with the skeletal dwarves resting against the cold stone. It feels as though it has history and you're just seeing a small piece of that long tale.
Rings of power on the other hand, you don't get that with that ruin, with the troll fight. You don't get the same feeling of historical events taking place within this hall, you just see a set piece and big generic enemy to fight, it's nothing but bare bones story telling meant to get the characters from one place to the other.
Yep, its just a generic ice cave instead of the ominous insides of one of the strongholds built by Morgoth.
In the Rings of Power they had way more budget and time, but they created like 3 sets for Moria, two being interiors (Durin's house and the mithril tunnel) that got reused to high heavens for the whole season. And the set for Moria's halls in their supposed best is just underwhelming when compared to Jackson's towering structures.
well it hard to find talent or passion to a prodject wth so little of the one billion invested in making it .
It doesn't matter how many times I've watched this scene. Seeing everyone's reactions to Frodo being stabbed brings tears to my eyes. The visceral reactions of Merry and Pippin and the utter disbelief and heartbreak in Gandalfs eyes ruin me.
It was cheesy, I admit it. Perhaps a little cringey too. But it was sincere and it worked.
Fucking hell if watching the lord of the rings emotionally ruins you I cannot imagine how weak your disposition is.
@@baglad Because you're obviously the epitome of emotional stability. 🙄
@@AliciaQuality Just because you were upset reading it doesn't mean i was upset writing it
I still cry every time I watch this movie... at multiple scenes. I just saw this with my 7 y/o for the first time and she cried when Gandalf fell. I can't with this movie, they don't make stories like how they used to. Truly a great experience and what film makers should strive for.
There's something about the line "Things that were, things that are, and some things...that have not yet come to pass" that gets me every time. Cate Blanchett never misses. They picked absolutely perfect actors/actresses for the elves being these ethereal entities who are somehow simultaneously holier than thou and humble. Say what you will about the Hobbit films aswell, but the casting was pretty awesome in those too.
All the films, LOTR and Hobbit also exhibit heaps of "brotherly love" and male comradery in a non cringey way. Boromir crying while slowly dying, and Bilbo crying whilst watching Thorin die, are both incredible scenes.
The sound design in the LOTR goblin fight is soooo good! I've heard the echoing drums and goblin screeches a hundred times and it's still chilling every time
Absolutely. Just got through my my annual marathon of the movies and seeing that sequence just makes me want to fire them all back up again.
Look at how different it is that the Fellowship controls the movements of their troll verse how Guylaterail deals with hers. They prevent the troll from crushing Sam put pulling on the chain as it lifts up its leg while facing away from them. They use its own momentum and angle to their advantage and save Sam.
Guylaterail jumps over and swings down into the troll as it is attempt to step on one of her elves. She is pushing her attack down into the troll, which would have logically caused it to gain more force into its stomp. But just like everything else in that show, they just pretend that doesn't exist and her choice to attack from above as it was attempting to stomp someone doesn't have any consequence at all.
It's the little details that make the whole and RoP fails on every single level of that as well as their themes and over-aching story.
The truly sad reality is that even as screwed up as it was, Guy-ladrial's terrible entrance could have been used to initiate great character change, especially if they had killed the 'NPC's'. She made several blunders as a leader; she didn't report in when her mission ended, meaning her superiors will now have to check to see if something found and killed them. she nearly got her men killed because she over worked them and didn't set up camp or a guard. It could lead to her leadership position being taken away and having to continue her quest on her own. That could have issues.
I just finished both scene comparisons, and you sir, have earned my sub. Keep it up, we need more people calling out bad writing.
The amazingly tragic thing about this introduction to Galadriel is that it would have been phenomenal at setting her up on an arc similar to Thor in his first movie in the MCU. Imagine if all of these ugly character traits were actually treated as flaws by the writers, ones which had to be addressed and worked out as part of her journey, instead of their delusional usage as 'good' traits to try to make her 'cool' and 'badass'?
Had the writers had created this scene, completely unaltered, with goal of showing off an arrogant, unfeeling, unsympathetic, anti-heroic protagonist that the Audience would start off hating, a character shown at their lowest point because the planned arc was to then redeem them and turn them into a true hero by the end: it would be deserving of a shower of praise and adulation.
Galadriel would be such a good diamond in the rough archetype in this scene... if only they had acknowledged how rough she's starting out;
- An amazing warrior, but an abysmal commander,
- A focused and efficient mind that sadly has no space for attachment, emotion, or empathy,
- A one-tracked-bordering-on-paranoid fixation with chasing the shadows of a long-dead threat to reality itself... that just so happens to be correct after all.
- A knowledgeable yet arrogant person who cannot take input, advice, or meaningful help from others, even those who see and know things she doesn't or can't yet.
Imagine how engaging that character would be, who had to learn and overcome all of that, who had all of that working against them, whose biggest enemy is themself? Imagine the character growth as, through the story, she is confronted by her own limitations in ways she cannot ignore, and has to learn to rely on friends and allies to survive and achieve her goals instead of treating her companions like dead weight while she solos everything? And imagine the emotional impact, even if we the Audience work out fairly quickly that her main companion is Sauron in hiding, imagine the emotional impact when, after her journey was centered around opening up to ideals of friendship and teamwork and camaraderie and becoming, for lack of a better word, a better, richer, fuller 'human'-being instead of an automaton... imagine the emotional impact when all of that is betrayed by her realization that she's gone through this journey and done all of this with Sauron, The Dark Lord, the one she wished more than anything else to eradicate forever?
THAT, my friends and gentlefolk.... THAT is a story worthy of the telling.
I watched LOTR countless times. Over and over and over again... Once in a while you just go back to this story. You cry when Boromir dies. You always gasp when Gendalf fights the Balrog. You feel the ever living fear when orcs assault Helms Deep and Minas Tirith. Honestly, I always asked why... Why I am going back to this? Why this efing story is so good? And I just understand that in LOTR film I always believe that this world is real. I am honest! This world is breathing! It`s alive.
Emotions caused by ROP = 0, zero, zilch, none... All we have to say. Will never watch that shit again.
This video made me appreciate some of the amazing details from FOTR. One thing that struck me is the face of the cave troll at 4:21. It looks so confused and scared when Aragorn jumps in. They really capture the fright and confusion of a scared slave that is abused as a war machine. That, combined with Aragorns epic war cry - simply amazing!!
I feel bad for the troll now...
What I love especially about Moria battle scene - untill cave troll separates Frodo from Merry and Pippin there is no music, just sounds of struggle and clashing weapons. Whole fight feels more real and physical, you can tell something hits something. Galadriel in RoP looks like she is cutting air with her sword while doing acrobatics to epic score.
The parts in this video about RoP gave me some good laughs, but the parts about the real LotR almost brought a tear to my eye because of the beauty of the friendship of the characters Tolkien created, and how accurately Jackson and co. were able to lovingly portray it.
Jackson reduced Tolkien's characters to caricatures
I remember when they came out of the mountain. The grey but clear daylight sort of telling they had escaped their enemies to saftey, but then had time to mourn the loss of their friends. It was beautiful like so much in the movie.
"Let the grieve for pity's sake."
But by nightfall the hills would be crawling with orcs...
Wow, I JUST got done watching your first one, what are the odds you just uploaded this one? Another extremely intelligent scene comparison.
Haha same here! Good timing!
You can't outwrite Tolkien.
They should not try to outwrite Tolkien. They should just follow what's written.
One of my absolute FAVORITE moments in the FOTR scene which I don't see many people mentioning is at 4:00 when the troll just OBLITERATES two of the goblins as it goes after Gimli, who jumps backward just in time to avoid being pulverized. Makes me crack up every single time! Something about the way Gimli falls over and the squeal of the goblin as it gets swatted across the room just absolutely SENDS me. Proof you don't need corny jokes every few seconds to insert comedy into an action scene (looking at you, Marvel)
Gimli stumbling over dead goblins which in turns saves his life as he's totally unaware to the troll attacking him. He's still just fighting goblins without even noticing xD Genius writing and everything.
Bro no one missed this, it’s like one of the most obvious and memorable parts of the fight
@@Aramil4 I didn't say people "missed" or didn't notice that part. I said I didn't see other people mentioning it (as in, there weren't other comments talking about it). I'm glad it's a memorable part of the scene for you as well, though.
You deserve more views, my good sir. These comparisons are excellent and totally on point. The cave troll scene in FoTR is one the best in the entire series. It shows us that the characters in LOtR are not overpowered cartoon superheroes. Even Gandalf, who in the lore is literally an angel in human form is limited by said form and he's not invincible. He knows some things are beyond him.
These fight scenes are not just realistic, they respect the intelligence of the audience and the characters, and I think J.R.R Tolkien's own attitudes and intent. He wrote that fantasy should have certain standards of realism and should adhere to certain rules. You cannot simply get away with a total lack of realism in everything just because its fantasy.
Peter Jackson said the moria sequence was one of his favorite scenes in the trrilogy if he had to pick (Interview with Colbert). I saw FotR when I was young and it made such a lasting impression on me.
God damn that moria scene hits so hard. The build up from reading the diary, to hearing the drums in the distance, to all out chaos where you feel like any of the main characters could die at any second to the hands of depraved orcs or a yoked ass troll. Compared to ROP which is like two kids playing with their toys in the sandbox
Read th Book. PJ captures the narration and build up so perfectly.
As I watched this scene the first time I realized that the series was going to suck. I couldn't believe how terrible it was even without being able to elucidate as you've done here so well. One thing I realized was that they made this fight scene so early it couldn't work because you cannot care about the characters -- but it didn't take long to hate the character they seemingly were trying to make you accept as the hero. What a waste of money...
This is almost exactly how I felt about this part of the series, except I went in expecting a bad series before I started watching it altogether. It almost made me stop watching but the Durin and Elrond part got me back into it. Also, I wanted to see if it was really as bad as people said it was. For a budget series it really was halfdecent. They could have hired better actors and certainly the script was bad, but apart from the pointless action scenes, the lack of story and the not so great CGI and costumes it was actually ok. Could have used a bit more budget though, it felt really cheap all the way through.
@@pinobluevogel6458 Are you kidding? Wasn't it one of the most expensive shows ever made?
Edit: You must be kidding.
@@bbgun061 Its a common joke on commenting on the shows insane budget.
I feel there is truth to what I am saying though, the quality of just about everything is low. It proves that throwing insane amounts of money at a problem doesn't make for something great. You need a lot of care, dedication and love to create a show of this scale. I'm sure some people put their heart and soul into this project, which makes it even more sad that it failed so miserably.
Imagine you're just the belt buckle person, you spend days researching the lore what kind of beltbuckles the elves, the dwarves and the numenorians were using, coming up with different designs, trying them out on the various things the actors and extra's will be wearing. You handcraft the ones that will be in direct camera view on some of the main characters, spending all your precious time to make them absolutely perfect. And then the show comes out and it's an absolute turd of a product. That would piss me off immensely or make me extremely sad, probably both.
Well belt buckle person, this is not your fault. As always, the ones at the top are responsible. The creators, writers, executive producers, casting directors and whatever these big productions use. The saddest part of it all is, they get paid a lot, while belt buckle person, who in this case was the most talented and dedicated person on the entire crew gets a fraction of that.
@@pinobluevogel6458 I think you make a good point that struck me while watching this. It seems all the huge budget managed to do is create detailed sets and costumes. The visuals are good. The sets are good. But there's no heart and soul behind them.
The belt buckle person can be amazing and create the most elven buckle ever to be made, but if Elf #4 is wearing it for two seconds as they get deleted by a random troll, what comes of it?
The insane amount of money just bought a shallow passability to the series. It made it look good. It doesn't feel good, it doesn't sound good, it doesn't read good, and most importantly doesn't do Tolkien justice good.
The instant I saw Galadriel not even looking at the cave troll as she sliced and diced it I knew they just went for flashiness over deep, heartfelt moments.
I don’t get why the writers of ROP didn’t just write a new character, because what made Galadriel both powerful and terrifying is that she can make massive political and powerful moves without doing much, she influences people by being who she is. In ROP this interesting character component was tossed aside in favor of creating weak conflict between Galadriel and the people that work for her.
It wasn't a cave troll, though there was one there, that tried to impale Frodo in the book, but a great orc chiefton. There was no time to spare. Aragorn scooped Frodo up and ran out the door with him in his arms. When Frodo finally got his breath back and said," I can walk, put me down," Aragorn nearly dropped him in surprized. He thought it was a dead hobbit he was carrying. The Mithral corslet was not discovered until hours after they excaped Moria. Frodo was having trouble keeping up with the others and fell far behind, so Aragorn decided to carry him. As soon as they found a place undercover to rest for a bit, Aragorn insisted, "We must have a look and see what the hammer and the anvil have done to you, " and gave a gasp of wonder. "Look, my friends. Here's a pretty hobbit-skin to wrap an elven-princeling in! If it were known that hobbits had such hides, all the hunters of Middle-earth would be riding to the Shire!" Then Gimi said his piece, "And all the arrows of all the hunters in the world would be in vain!" The scene in the movie, though not the same as the book, was very well done.
That scene where Pippen and Merry look at each other before jumping onto the troll is one of the best moments in the trilogy, in my opinion.
Good stuff man. I especially appreciate you breaking down how action also demonstrates characters. Something that's bugged me a lot about more recent writing. Really enjoy these! (also saw a bit of you hanging out with the Critical Drinker - rock on my dude!)
U know what’s great about the LOTR scene? The fellowship continues to fight the enemies in front of them, all while keeping an eye on their surroundings and their comrades. What a great team!
It was a proper boss fight compared to guyladriel just 1v1ing the troll
One thing I love about the LotR scene is the lack of music, the dramatic strings, flutes and horns that has been upping the tension as the goblins have mustered outside the door of the burial chamber/ achive dies off the moment the door is breached, giving the watchers and listeners the feel that this situation is less "scripted" (if that makes sense), it is not the traditional good vs evil where good always prevails; there are real stakes here and tension, the Fellowship are humble/experienced enough to know that their little party, though made up from great warriors, will have little real chance against a massive force in a cramped space. The music doesn't kick back in until Jackson wants more tension, in rather marvelous fashion when the troll goes after Frodo specifically.
Compare that to tRoP.... Tension filled music through the chase and the battle with the npcs, but the moment Guyladriel jumps into the fray it all turns very powerful and heroic... There is no tension anymore, even the music is telling us there is no way this is ending badly for our "heroin"... Why should we care if there are no stakes? Why should we feel compelled to root for a character with no room to change, grow and evolve? Sure, watching an overpowerful character dance through a group of enemies making a mockery of them is cool to see... once, and after that, when you realize "oh this was not just a onetime showcase, this is what they made the character to be... all the time?" it starts to get dumb and we lose interest - why? Cuz we already know how every fight is going to end, it's just a matter of how is she doing it this time...
I've seen reviewson a different channel Disparu. He makes the comment that the music does a lot of work in the TV shoe
Man, every time I see any glimpse of these movies I just want to watch them all again. I'll never get over how perfectly made they are, it's like a warm hug ❤
The editing in this one was so good. The quick cut of Tywin Lannister after Galadriel killed the troll had me dying 😂.
One of the other things that stand out in the LotR is that battles are actually chaotic as they really would be, rather than slick and choreographed, backhanded stabbing with ease
The battle in the Mines of Moria is my absolute favourite moment in the LOTR. I was a kid back in the late 90s reading the book and I still remember how it felt like my heart was beating to the sound of the drums, the drums in the deep. It was an inexplicable experience that even Peter Jackson's LOTR won't capture, but they damn well did it justice.
The whole series looked like as if the entire crew decided to celebrate the fact they got the project, but got a little carried away with the celebration. And when they finally realized they've spent all the time they had and there are only a few weeks to actually work on the project, they did the best that they could do...in two weeks..
that "what about them" from the orc in LOTR was so good mate! burst out laughing again after the "elf guy vs big chungus" of the first video. Keep on gettin these videos out!
Same😂
I love these, I plan to send these videos to my friend to explain to him why I loathe and despise RoP (he already knows that I love LoTR).
Something I noticed in the LoTR fight in the tomb was when Aragorn saves Boromir after he was tossed into the wall, Aragorn threw Boromir's sword through the goblin closest to him. Almost like he was giving the weapon back to its owner. Loved the unspoken communication between them.
it is crazy just how staggering the difference is
While watching Rings of Power this immideatly came to my mind. Never even noticed the character building/development during the Moria fight. But what I liked about Lotr is that they are (most of them at least) skilled warriors or powerful characters, yet within certain degrees. In Moria they needed eachother to survive, even though they are powerful themselves. And just a regular troll required all of them to kill it, which creates tension and shows their power isnt limitless. In Rings of Power galadriel singlehandly killed the troll without ever creating the illusion she was in danger or anything.
One of my favorite details is that Aragorn throws Boromir’s own sword at the goblin to save his life. Just a cool way of returning a warrior’s weapon to him since he’s now halfway across the room. The nod of respect afterwards is the perfect way to end the scene.
Videos like this highlight what care and passion for the source material along with respect for its author can achieve when making a movie, and what a travesty of a show you can end up with when you lack all of those elements.
I highly recommend watching "The Appendices" for The Lord of the Rings. The story of making the films and the work behind the scenes from top to bottom is honestly heartwarming and inspiring! It really feels like watching one very big family working on a passion project.
I watched all the behind the scenes stuff for the trilogy. The passion they put into this is unheard of now
As someone who had delusions of movie making, I've watched the Appendices for both LotR and the Hobbit ... not quite as many times as I've watched the movies ... but close. I get annoyed when other movies don't include "making of" special features ...
These video comparisons give confirmation to the things many of us felt, but lacked the ability to articulate. I really appreciate your insight here, and your editing is also top notch!
Me too, I knew the scenes were crap, I was frustrated with Guyladriel but struggled to articulate the reason why they made me hate the main character. This video really explains what was getting under my skin.
"The elf that has permission to speak..." LMAO
Listen to the music in the Guyladriel scene. So heroic, chords which sing praise. There’s no remorse for her should-be-dead allies, not a note of sadness, nor terror. No slow build of horror as the troll moves again, not dead. Music is such a glorious way of elevating, or in this case demolishing, a scene. It could’ve been done with so much more heart and soul.
oh my god, the moment when you show the clip where Gandalf talks to Frodo, Enya's humming voice instantly carrys me back to 20 years ago. How beautiful it was. It makes the scene ultraly compelling.
Right? The scene in Fellowship shows the characters working together as well as their bonds and developing relationships. I would argue its also an important turning point in Boromir's arc as well. Before we only ever saw him as a bit of a jerk, but then we saw him playing with The Hobbits and realized there might be another side to him. In Moria though he shows practicality (first when he realized Dwarves had been attacked and shouted for everyone to leave, then when he went up to the door of the funeral chamber to see what was coming instead of just waiting) and then showing compassion and concern for Frodo, The Hobbits and even Gimli. Finally, it also showcased his abilities as a warrior, and showed how he and Aragorn sort of started to respect one another. He also has to bodily carry Frodo out of Moria after Gandalf died.
It shows he's a caring, protective person and a good leader, not just an arrogant jerk who wants the Ring.
I’ve gotta say, the meme clips you throw in there are both perfectly timed and chosen. Keep it up.
9:23 I immediately was drawn to "The elf who has permission to speak" because he clearly cared about his comrades and was the only one willing to question and stand up to this fucking tyrant. I was genuinely interested to learn more about him. He of course left immediately, and we were stuck with Captain Hateable.
Does that elf even get a name?
@@cassia-andor6445 Probably, but to be honest I don't remember the name a of single character who wasn't already established in the films. Yet after over 20 years I could tell you the name of 90% of the named characters in the original trilogy.
Peter jackson actually read all of the books that JRR Tolkien had written and these scenes with this dialogue come from this interaction. I grew up with JRR Tolkiens work and we even did "The Hobbit" in english literature class. I dont think ANYone at amazon has done this.
The way the fellowship look out for each and collaborate in the battle with the cavetroll just feels so real to the situation. You really get a feeling of them being a fellowship and and the love and compassion that they have for eachother
What I love about LOTR fight scenes in general is they really didn't waste any second of screentime. There's just a lot going on -- too many movements, the camera gets shifted a lot that at first glance, it all appears chaotic. But then, it also kinda made sense, to showcase the urgency (that it's a life-death situation) and the chaos during that time.
Still, even in the midst of all that "chaos", the fight scenes also still showed some kind of masterful progression or story -- for example, if you combine Legolas' screentime, you'll notice he's actually looking for the troll's weakpoints. Then, there's a lot of Legolas and Gimli scenes of them primarily looking out for each other (not just in this fight scene) even if it's initially probably unintended given their earlier dwarf vs elf debate. There's also Aragorn and Boromir's dynamic because of their history, then the hobbit's friendship because they've known each other from the start, etc. The "pairings" aren't just random, because it's part of their character background/history. BUT again, even if they do have some obvious "partners", they still never fail to look out for each other (in general) at the same time. Not only because they're a team that grew on each other, but also because (first and foremost) they are seasoned warriors. Case in point: they (at least the likes of Aragorn, etc) have a clear grasp of their surroundings if their timely support of the other is any indication, and the zoomed shots of some selected characters during Frodo's assumed death was also on point.
You are right. There's so much care put into the LOTR fight scenes that showcased these character's personalities, and background. And growth! It isn't just for one person to show off, but actually tells you a story behind said person (or people). I haven't watched RoP, but based on your narrative (ie the group Galadriel is with is one she's been with for centuries, and these said people being war veterans), I don't see any depth from them, nor some sort of teamwork, nor did I even feel like they were seasoned fighters. Kinda sad, but it is what it is. I'm glad Peter J. was able to make these movies before Amazon bought the rights
I had two subsequent thoughts regarding the way Galadriel handled the troll (and now I had three).
First, under the presumption that she let her comrades die, they could have emphasized that she's -a psychopath- so steadfastly determined to achieve her goals, she'd sacrifice her comrades to achieve them, in this case, and I can only presume that this is what they were going for (and maybe Brooks didn't portray it very charitably) she analyzed the trolls moves and weaknesses and used those to take it down, again, sacrificing her comrades in the process. It's not like I'd mind such a character, she'd make an excellent anti-hero, potentially a bigger harbinger of death and destruction that strikes fear into the hearts of men and elves until Sauron's rise to power, which motivates her either towards staunch pacifism or even simply isolationism, her being fully aware that if she involves herself too much in the affairs of the world, she will burn it all down to save it from destruction.
Second, and again, maybe this was attempted but they didn't want the characters to spell it out, since all her comrades survived, them taking a worthy opponent's blows the way they did for the sake of scouting its moveset and barely surviving is part of their battle strategy. But...show don't tell is good and all but I feel like her comrades would have reacted differently if that were the case. It could make sense to have them be tired after such a close battle (and it would still have been better achieved if her comrades still did something while she singlehandedly took the thing down, distractions, instructions, tossing her weapons, anything).
Third, well, Galadriel is a ringbearer, so she's more powerful than Legolas, does not necessarily make for a compelling story but it is part of the lore.
The moment where the hobbits charge in Moria is incredible.
You can see the fear and nervousness in their face as their companions try to block the door.
And then as the orcs break in the adrenaline and desperation of being caught in between blades and a hard place flashes over their face and the mask of fear slips and they burst forward with a war cry you'd not expect from otherwise such gentle people as hobbits
I know Tolkien fought in WW1, and this moment to me always felt like Frodo and his friends were "going over the top" for the first time, so to speak.
The tragedy, trauma and pain of combat comes back to them almost immediately after that fight, yet they push on.
I think it's one of the strongest themes in Tolkien's work. Ordinary gentle people, pushed into heroism, sacrifice and great historical events where they can make a real impact, purely through the circumstances of their time
And all of that theme can be seen and felt in the Hobbit's charge against truly overwhelming odds.
Beautifully done.
It was also a good move during that Black Gates final battle that Aragorn would face armored troll 1vs1. Considering it took whole fellowship to take down a slave troll, Sauron's trolls are like war trolls, Olog Hai. Strong and Resistant to daylight. No chance against it, all Aragorn can do is trying to survive long enough against it.
It's one of the few things I hate about the original trilogy. Aragorn being able to stop a sword swung at him by a troll? No thanks.
@@suckieduckie Still a better choice than phantom Sauron. And imo it works, since he is dunedain, dressed in plate armor and having Narsil.
@@gronndaryeah, he's not the average human. I find it somewhat realistic that he can handle a few more things that normal humans cannot
Calling something an abortion is probably the harshest thing I have ever heard. 100% accuracy.
god damn. The cave troll scene in Fellowship is one of my fav scenes of all time. You explained it really well. I had doubts about watching Rings of Power but you've convinced me to not watch it and harm the magic of Tolkien.
Also in the Peter Jackson fight all characters are true to their race. The hobbit try to hide, the humans cooperate finally when faced with great setback. The dwarf stout and immobile while the elf shows great athleticism.