I did my HS physics project on TECs and I found that one of the biggest problems with them is that their faces are not flat at all and since they are ceramic they are difficult to flatten so I had to compensate with globs of thermal paste and even then it was bad plus hot side temps matter almost as much as cold side since a high delta caused by insufficient cooling leads to heat leaking to the cold side lowering efficiency. Future improvement could be done by flattening the TEC with an end-mill or facing on a lathe, stacking TECs, and direct contact vs an additional copper plate(that slot for the thermal-couple wasn't helping anything.
I was going to say, what if they removed the bottom plate and liquid metaled it the bottom of the ceramic direct to the cpu ? They never checked if the bottom plate was getting cold only the hot side
You'd be better off putting the TEC cooling on the radiator to get lower than ambient, then you'd need another water cooler just to cool the TEC plate. You could get the water as cold as you want and not even worry about condensation.
This is EXACTLY what I was going to say, this is how the Coolit tec coolers work. I still use a Coolit Freezone Elite and it works amazing after 12 years. I did have to replace the pump once but the peltiers are still working great. And that cooler can easily take up to 350w of cooling and it's in a small form factor. If they adapted that method with those radiators, it would be able to easily cool 1800w. Hell those radiators ALONE should be able to take 1200-1500w with just fans. If implemented properly that setup should be able to keep that whole system including sli gpus in the water loop around ambient temps on load.
Your peltie uses 900W to transfer heat. That means you have to be able to cool at least that amount with the water block. If you don't, both side start to heat.
@@xsjado_anon TEC Coolers have extremely poor thermal conductivity. They also have extremely poor efficiency. They have efficiency that put solar panels to shame, so what that means is - A 545W TEC can only move 5.45W ( ~10% like ultra super max level stuff), and to do that, it generates 539.5W of heat. Now coming back to thermal conductivity, that measly 5.45W of heat to be moved is limited by its thermal resistance, so what it means is it takes way longer to move that measly 5.45W of heat compared to a block of damn iron, much less a proper copper heat block. So, bottom line: you wanna freeze a few ml of water into ice spending hundreds of watts? Be my guest, and I assure it will work as long as you can dissipate those hundreds of watts. But Peltiers can never move enough thermal power from a strong af dynamic heat(one that continuously converts energy into heat, in contrast ambient temperature water that we were making ice out of before does not continuously compensate temperature since its heat energy is gone once it cools) source like a CPU. (And if you really wanna do it, like reaallllly badly wanna do it, for every 100W(around that for a TDP?) of cooling on the cpu you need around 100W/0.05(eff) = 2000W of peltier units, and heat dissipation capacity of 1900W and your peltier should would prolly still not be able to work out due to problems in thermal conductivity. LOL, this was a long rant, but will prolly save some idiot his money. PS - Imma just post it in main thread too, just in case so people can see it..
@@anubhavmuku96 While their efficiency isn't as good as a gas transition heat pump, it's a bit unfair to to compare performance if you're running the TEC at 545W because that displays a complete lack of understanding of how to utilize them. The coefficient of performance of a TEC scales badly. For example I'll use the TE-127-2.0-1.15 module. If you run the TEC at 3v, you can pump ~25W of heat, with around 35W of waste heat with a temp difference of 10 degrees each side. If you run the TEC at 15v, you can pump ~110W of heat, without around 350W of waste heat with a temp difference of 10 degrees each side. That's 10x the wattage, for only 4x the amount of heat it can move from the cold side. That's why it's insane to run a TEC at 545W, it's much more efficient to run many of them at low wattage.
To be honest - everything he does (at least what we can see in the videos) is very sketchy engineering-wise :D Degree wont help at all if somebody cant think like an engineer...
@@emmaisalone yet they have time to play with cfd module inside solidworks premium package which takes a lot of time. I know I know... it has to be just "good enough".
didn't asetek do double phase pc coolers at one point? I have a single phase built in a case, that runs on 12v - very effective on the Athlon 64 x2 it cooled at the time!
@@ZpeedTube Nothing ironic about it. The point is that in the grand scheme of things 900w is nothing. Is it a lot for a desktop computer meant for home use? Of course. For example A small window AC unit, which people run for hours, typically operates between 900-1200W depending on how hard it needs to work. A large outdoor unit would far exceed that. As would say your household oven, a washing machine, and more.
The relay itself is the problem: First, it's for AC power and expects the voltage to turn zero at some point. It turns off in the zero crossing. DC voltage never turns to zero, so the relay will never turn off. Also, it has a 1.6 volt voltage drop, so the peltier gets only 10.4 volts. Please use a MOSFET next time. It will work way better, and we get to see even more sketchy LTT electronics. I love these videos!
@@emperorSbraz Alex looks like a pretty capable guy, in the case he didn't know, he'd be capable of wiring a MOSFET correctly with a Google search. It's just they don't care of doing this kind of projects more correctly, the concept is pointless to begin with
I assume the relay is a dumb component controlled by the thermo controller, which outputs the PID pulse to switch the relay (that switch the power). Therefore I'm not sure if it really matters if it is for controlling AC or DC.
I assume he used the PID as a modulating ( on/off) controller to drive the relay. Rather than a PI control loop. Doesn't look like it would of mattered tho.
@@FlameRat_YehLon Solid state relays are usually just a box with a thyristor inside. Thyristors can turn a current on, but they cannot turn it off. Only useful for AC since the current goes to zero 100 (120) times per second. With DC, the current doesn't go through zery by itself, thus the thyristor doesn't turn off.
It’s rated at 32 amps, and we’re expecting 32 amps... Yeah, I’m just going to stand back here, behind the plexiglass, with the fire extinguishers. Always use things that are rated for a higher load than what you are expecting. Helps keep things from burning and exploding.
CO2 extinguishers don't work for electrical fires. For those, you need to get a powder extinguisher. Which would, by the way, still hose your expensive GPU.
You're right about thermodynamics is in play here, specifically the latent heat of vaporization of H2O. There's an inherent heat storage capacity to water that isn't there for the Peltier device. There's also the phenomenon of the difference between laminar flow vs. turbulent flow of water in a heat exchanger. If you have laminar flow through your water block, you can generate micro bubbles of steam in the water; that steam infused water can then be pulled away from the water block's heat exchange surfaces. In turn, the micro bubbles of steam infused in the water collapse and spread and disperse the thermal energy in the water downstream from the water block. That's the "inherent" heat storage capacity of water I was referring to earlier. That's what makes water coolers superior to Peltier devices or tech cooler devices, imo.
You're correct, I'm pretty sure the seebeck effect exists even if overpowered passed it's specifications, but it becomes that much harder to cool (resistive heating increases at a faster rate than the cooling effect) and the delta between the two sides decrease as the hot isn't cooled at a fast enough rate. The resistive heating effects always exist in it, that is why the final cooling solution needs to be able to cool a thermal load that is the peltier + the object being cooled.
@@guydevries8197, the massive of the water block isn't necessarily that important. The mass just effects the blocks heat capacity, but the main importance is the interface between the fluid and block, which is actually what moves the thermal energy out of the system.
Interesting. I'd often wondered about using a Peltier for PC cooling, but not directly on the CPU. My thought was to use it more passively, in conjunction with a fan at the front or rear of the case to cool the air flowing into the case by 5 or 10 degrees while drawing only minimal power. The idea being that if the air being supplied to your standard air- or water-based CPU cooling rig is slightly cooler than ambient, you would see some increase in the performance of your cooling rig overall. Kind of like keeping servers in an air conditioned room, but in this case using a little modular box on the back of the case to create the AC effect. It would be interesting to hear your thoughts on this, Linus.
Instead of trying to cool with the peltier directly you should try to use a standard water cooled loop setup but after the water has cooled in the radiator it should pass true the peltier then and get cooled to ambient or even sub ambient.
My guess is people who are better at using software than tools? I am hoping to meet me someone who is good at everything, let me know if you find them.
May I suggest you try using a logic level mosfet next time instead of a solid state relay, Alex? Because as you probably found out during the making of this video, you cannot use a solid state relay to switch DC 🙄🤣 They can only be used to switch AC waveforms that cross through zero. A solid state relay (henceforth SSR) is nothing more than a triac with an additional zero crossing detection circuit. Although they are very different, the triac component in a SSR performs a function similar to that of a mosfet; where, for example, an active logic signal causes a current to flow. A very important difference between a mosfet and a triac is that once latched (and conductive) the triac cannot unlatch (and return to a state of isolation) unless the AC waveform crosses through zero, where as a mosfet can unlatch at will. This is the function of the zero crossing detection circuit; all it does is ensure that if the triacs logic signal becomes active somewhere halfway through the AC waveform, the actual latching of the triac is delayed until the waveform once again crosses through zero. Latching at any other point during the AC waveform has the serious potential of resulting in an enormous (potentially triac destroying) current surge immediately upon latching. Unless you're lucky, and the triac happens to latch precisely at the zero crossing point of the AC waveform, after which the current is allowed to rise gradually with the voltage. _[Important note: just as a triac is unsuitable for switching DC, a mosfet is unsuitable for switching AC!]_ I hope this clears things up a bit 😁 I know the chance you'll read this is so low I might as well be talking to a wall, but perhaps there is a slight chance another soul will come and stumble across this information and find it useful somehow. Who knows, they might potentially even learn something 😊 (If I made a mistake please correct me in a reply to this comment _in a friendly manner please_ and I'll happily modify this comment!)
It seems that Alex, just like me, is a mechanical engineer. We know very little about electricity (I've had like 2 classes in university for one semester). I learned everything what I know when I was working in electronic retail shop as my first job. I did my master's degree on Meredith's effect and pressure carburetors!
SSR's work just fine with DC signals and do not require any zero crossing. There are IGBT, Mosfet and Bipolar versions from different manufacturers. You are thinking of an AC-only Solid State Relay... basically an optically isolated triac. Crydom D2D40 is a perfect example.
Already been done actually.. A few years ago some startup company created a bitcoin mining facility inside a mountain. The mountain already had a building tunneled out inside as it used to be an old Russian military base. The temperature is so low inside that they have no cooling.
The "Oh my god!" moment of the overflow was the first genuine laugh I have had in days.. wasn't watching LTT for that experience, but thank you, I needed it!
The sad thing is, that they don't understand peltiers apperently. The water was not able to get the heat away. Meaning the peltier cannot cool and will just act as a heater. Linus brilliant idea: Cranck up the heater you put on your cpu even higher.
Thanks!! Yah i would not rull out this before they can keep the hot side alot cooler.. as i recall the delta t will drop when getting hotter.. so a theoretical hot/cold temp of 70c is not at a burning hot side. It is not a good solution power wise! I did an 85w with water on a celeron 300@504 -17c idle 0c load.. Back in the day.
Peltiers never gonna work on something that is actively producing heat like a CPU ... The actual cooler is the radiator here ... If they directly use it with the CPU and water block it would do better job ...
Tecs get less efficient as the power consumption goes up so cranking it up to 900w might not be as effective as keeping it at 200w. Also expect a 10c delta across the tec so for sub ambient multiple tecs should be used with a larger cooling system
I'm betting on a sweet spot on 2-300w into the TEC. Any more would demand way to much from the heat sink. I think the copper water block got overwhelmed, not enough water flow and speed.
I do the opposite of this. I use multiple TECs in a small cooling system but the system is half-assed and intended for chilling multiple things in a water loop, not forcing heat away from a TEC in the loop.
@@DaemonForce they overloaded the one radiator. He calculated 500w without including the cpu heat. And even then it was at 50c meaning the cold side would be at 40.
@@phillstevenson4931 they really did the worst possible design they could. The copper part on top of the tec for water cooling it -that was actually obvious its not gonna dump the heat- was a beautiful, neat, amazing mess 😂
i think an air cooling will suit for this because TEC is "collect" heat extreme fast, air cooler just fit very well for this. Water cooling transfer heat isn't that fast compare to a huge metal fin heat sink.
I'll be honest, I think Whole Room Water Cooling was one of the best things ever, and I want a new version of it. I don't know what they could do at this point, but I think it was an awesome idea, and could absolutely work. I've seen similar setups work extremely well with only a couple computers, and LTT has the capacity and means to do a "whole room" unlike so many others. Some day I hope they do a 2.0, or have a reason to. Maybe just not the editors den..
Have you never heard of the 437w Arctic Web TEC? I ran one for years on my C2Q9300 (and still have it). Used a heater core for a radiator with an electric car radiator fan running on 5v to cool it. Fed the 24v peltier with ~15v and got a below-freezing idle temp, with about 15C full-load temp with a 1Ghz overclock. Insulated the motherboard around the CPU (both front and back) as well as coating it with dielectric grease to protect the board from condensation.
Watching back these older vids it's interesting to see how your production has improved; use of wide shots for conversations, audio mix with the background music being lower, and less filming of computer monitors to explain concepts all help the videos flow better, and probably make the editors jobs easier. Just goes to show that even the best still have room to improve. These videos are great, but your current stuff is even more refined.
It's fantastic to finally see Alex firing on all cylinders and be able to use his engineering skills. Even if the TEC didn't work, that waterblock is gorgeous.
@alexi Todaze goddamn you i kept trying to wipe the hair off my screen.... and then when i couldnt i thought my monitor was fucked up and/or scratched..
1. If you don't use the right ssr, it won't turn off when using dc 2. You want a T type tc to measure sub freezing temps 3. look at the ssr derating curve. they only can handle their max amps when they are cool
@@the_unkilled2238 The "SSR-40 DA" is a real Solid State Relay, i think this click comes from the PID regulator. It may has a small signal output relay for isolation purposes. And yes the "A" in the name stands for AC so it realy can't switch off again when DC current goes through it. Still a good idea from LTT to use a SSR nevertheless.
LOL I haven't programmed a PID in two decades now, but looks like they're still just as PITA as ever. Sad to see it didn't even help. BUT (dun dun dun!) maybe putting the Peltier cooler on the CPU itself was the bad idea. What if it was used as a secondary cooling phase (so placed after the rad) to cool the water going into a normal CPU water block? So CPU - AIC - Peltier - CPU? So two sets of radiators. An AIC for the CPU and a massive rad for a janky Peltier. Arguably (not really) pointless as you COULD just use the massive rad alone to cool the CPU in a normal watercooled setup ... but where's the fun in doing things the sane way?
I 100% agree with this and have spent a lot of time looking to see what it would take to do this. I'd put the main rad on the top blowing, and the other on the front...
"If I have to blast a TITAN RTX I'm gonna be so pissed off" I'm sure there is a cheap as crap PCIe graphics card somewhere in the warehouse they can use until they are satisfied it's booting correctly before testing further
As suggested by some commenters, it would be way better to cool the water using the TEC and stay within its maximum efficiency zone. More power doesn't mean more cooling. You'll have to dump that heat the TEC is generating somewhere or it will start to heat up. Cool the CPU loop radiator with multiple TECs and cool the multiple TECs with another loop. That way the CPU block should receive cooler water and the TECs dump their heat into another radiator so it doesn't interfere with the CPU loop. In theory, this _should_ work as long as you don't overdrive the TECs.
Go one step further. Standard water block -> large radiator to bring temp to ambient -> tec cooling array to bring coolant subzero -> back to water block. Fyi, peltiers have three energy balance equations including internal resistive heating, conductive thermal transfer and seebeck thermal transfer. As your temp delta goes up the tec efficiency drops and the resistive heating takes over resulting in your tech becoming predominantly a heater on both sides. Amping up the voltage and current just drives more resistive heat load. Also as the temperature delta increases, a reverse voltage is generated which subsequently further drops the seebeck heat transfer performance. Fun times 🤠
Yeah, thermoelectric coolers aren't really meant to cool a continuous heat load like that very well. I knew an engineer who specializes in thermoelectric coolers and the main scenario he used them for was when a piece of equipment needed to be kept at a very precise temperature, such as optics in a spy plane camera.
The PID controllers are pretty good things. Often used in labs and metalworking industry to control the temperature in muffle furnaces. Heat treatment for steel or otherwise simply maintaining a stable unchanging temperature within the chamber. BTW, that's why it doesn't read negative temperatures, it's intended for high temperatures, such as from the 600's to over 1k Celsius.
I want another channel that is run by Alex where he just does design and engineering stuff in a lot of detail. It doesn't need to be this kind of camera or editing quality, I'd just like to see... DETAILS.
"Waste heat from the TEC..." - yeah, I always thought TECs were essentially heat pumps, transferring heat from one side to the other. I imagine there's some heat from internal resistance, but that sounds a wee bit odd.
@@MattExzy You get two separate heat sources with a TEC the heat being pumped based off the power you put into it and the heat generated from the power put into it. From everything i've seen you want to run them at 60% capacity for maximum heat pumped and minimal heat generated within the TEC. The PED was a step in the right direction but it still only controls how long the TEC is on maximum cooling like a thermostat for an A/C.
@@Championjcc608 TEC's are simple electric heat pumps. I hope Alex/Linus revisit this because they made that stuff all sorts of wrong and I would like to see a high wattage TEC implemented correctly. They need a much larger copper/aluminum block on the cold side to act as a buffer and a variable wattage power supply programmed to the heat differential in between the cpu side and the cold side of the TEC to try and keep it optimal. They were just wasting a lot of power and overloading the TEC.
The workshop section was them standing at a computer explaining their plan/designs. The lack of machining/fabrication footage was really disappointing.
EZ PZ: CPU block > 360 rad > 2x aquarium peltier. Cool liquid like normal, THEN chill. Edit: As @tommihommi1 pointed out in his reply to this comment, this setup in not good for sub-ambient cooling(although I personally see this as a positive due to the reduced likelihood of condensation).
@@tommihommi1 fair point, but going below ambient would only increase chances of condensation anyways. It's not great for getting sub-zero but in theory that just means it'll self regulate around room temp without the need for any of their crazy control setup
Loved this episode, I tried this back in 2006, pretty much did exactly what was done here minus the temp regulator and my water loop started boiling, The pipe burst off the radiator and that was the end of that idea. I also first tried with a tiny peltier cooler which was useless but then ordered an industrial grade peltier and the outcome was the boiling water loop as I mentioned. It would be awesome if this kind of technology actually worked.
I am designing a cooling system for a giant telescope mirror. I never thought that LTT would be a resource I would use to design the thing. You guys are the best!
Did Peltier cooling back when it was needed, more than 10 years ago. Had one of the massive aluminum Lian Li cases with room for 12 hard drives on the bottom. After the cpu or gpu you send the water to a radiator. Which then feeds the reservoir. This brings the water to roughly room temp. Then you cool the water, with a different pump system cooling the peltiers. All in all, 3 x 3 fan radiators and 1 x 2 fan. With a 1 gallon res. 1250 watt EVO galaxy PSU and 450 watt Thermaltake side by side psu. Peltiers took about 600 W in total. Anyways, give the system the same cooling as a radiator first then cool it with peltiers. Don't remember the Intel CPU. but it was stock clocked at 3.2 with 4 cores(best cpu at the time was 3.6x4). With radiator alone water cooling could hit 4.2 stable. With peltiers the way I stated, it would go up to 4.8 stable and all the way to 5.4 (unstable). The only reason I would pull my old case out of storage and do this again, is I had money to throw away. Air cooled with a decent set up works today. These are no longer the days where Crysis made your system have a mental breakdown.
@Linus Tech Tips - protip, if you mount peltier element backwards, just switch wires and it will switch around its hot and cold side ;) edit: also maybe you could use PS_ON instead of SSR edit2: Peltiers take up to 15V
@Jan Nowak You should only run a Peltier element at 60% to get max efficiency. 12x30 is 360 so it puts them pretty close to the 60%. Still over by a bit actually. I agree though that they don´t know anything. AC relay when using DC current :D Although I think they took it out when they used the variable DC supply.
@@mikecrapse5285 Cooling a 200W system with extra 420W load of cooler ! WTF is math ? Even AIO vendors sell Asetek equipments under their name, they do test it gradually for every +1°C temp to find efficiency, economy & failure points. No one goes rushing for peak values.
@@frederf3227 Doesn't worth it, overclockers tried it 15+ years ago & yield is so short as compared to LN2. Also you have keep eye on pump & flow rate, cause as you go up for more cooling there are chances of freezing & choking the path, eventually *zappp...!*
the design didn't make sense why make a custom block instead of just using the TEC to cool the res water or the rad instead make a custom rad instead of a custom block
@@MariuszChr 1st they autotuned the PID controller at possibly room temperature. Then, like you said, the temperature ramped down then up so fast that it appeared to function as an on/off controller which as we know has a few degrees of hysteresis. Had the tuning been performed at the temperature of interest, and the temperature rate of change wasn't so fast we would have seen the relay operating within the proportional bandwidth. The relay is on/off only so the only way to control the temperature within the proportional band is to adjust the duty cycle which will work but is not as good as true PID with adjustable voltage output which you can get with 4-20ma output. It was all in fun and reminded me of the days when I worked on temperature controlled plating tanks using steam to heat the solution. Steam holds a lot of heat capacity and temperatures rocket up as soon as a little is released. Thanks for the input.
It breaks my heart that this didn't work, but I still feel like there has to be a way to get sub-zero CPU temps consistently without hazards even if the tradeoff is energy use/heat mitigation...
Hi linus, I think you got to change your approach. Back in the day 2000 -2002, I created a liquid cooling set put for my pc using car cabin heat exchanger, 3 inch 220v fan, windshield washer motor 12v and a Jar of jam as coolant reservoir. If you want to give another try to this tech then you need to use 3, 100watts paltier sandwiched one over another. One connected to 12v , 5,5v and 3 volts respectively. In that way you will have the ability to reach sub zero temperatures of about -40 degree c. Now what I want you to do is keep on the the air cooler on the processor. As that’s the efficient way to cool it. Use the paltier cooler with the liquid cooling block along side and connect it to the air cooler so that the heat exchange takes place. Paltier alone will not have enough power to cool off a processor that outputting around 80 - 100watts of heat. Our main aim here is to get the temperature down so that the processor can be used at higher clock speeds. This is the way I think will work. Let me know what you think. Cheers
+2 points for the solidworks flow demo and real engineering talk. More of that please tyvm.
if only they tried with a more serious cooling solution on the TEC
-10 for the TEC on CPU, and crippling the heat transfer with an Insulator.
i'm taking classes on Solid works and simulation rn
@@yoyodavid ok, but who cares?
@@hansdietrich83 nice way to be a dick
I did my HS physics project on TECs and I found that one of the biggest problems with them is that their faces are not flat at all and since they are ceramic they are difficult to flatten so I had to compensate with globs of thermal paste and even then it was bad plus hot side temps matter almost as much as cold side since a high delta caused by insufficient cooling leads to heat leaking to the cold side lowering efficiency. Future improvement could be done by flattening the TEC with an end-mill or facing on a lathe, stacking TECs, and direct contact vs an additional copper plate(that slot for the thermal-couple wasn't helping anything.
It'd probably be better to lap the surfaces with a diamond cutting compound.
So.. liquid metal^^
About the piece of copper in between: I thought that too but then there would be no way to regulate the temperature.
:)
I was going to say, what if they removed the bottom plate and liquid metaled it the bottom of the ceramic direct to the cpu ? They never checked if the bottom plate was getting cold only the hot side
You'd be better off putting the TEC cooling on the radiator to get lower than ambient, then you'd need another water cooler just to cool the TEC plate. You could get the water as cold as you want and not even worry about condensation.
We're getting into Nuclear Reactor type cooling setups now. This is the LTT experiment that needs to happen.
That’d be cool
Same idea man xD
This is EXACTLY what I was going to say, this is how the Coolit tec coolers work. I still use a Coolit Freezone Elite and it works amazing after 12 years. I did have to replace the pump once but the peltiers are still working great. And that cooler can easily take up to 350w of cooling and it's in a small form factor. If they adapted that method with those radiators, it would be able to easily cool 1800w. Hell those radiators ALONE should be able to take 1200-1500w with just fans.
If implemented properly that setup should be able to keep that whole system including sli gpus in the water loop around ambient temps on load.
Yeah, but... What if you get condensation in your water?
Your peltie uses 900W to transfer heat. That means you have to be able to cool at least that amount with the water block. If you don't, both side start to heat.
@@xsjado_anon TEC Coolers have extremely poor thermal conductivity. They also have extremely poor efficiency. They have efficiency that put solar panels to shame, so what that means is - A 545W TEC can only move 5.45W ( ~10% like ultra super max level stuff), and to do that, it generates 539.5W of heat. Now coming back to thermal conductivity, that measly 5.45W of heat to be moved is limited by its thermal resistance, so what it means is it takes way longer to move that measly 5.45W of heat compared to a block of damn iron, much less a proper copper heat block. So, bottom line: you wanna freeze a few ml of water into ice spending hundreds of watts? Be my guest, and I assure it will work as long as you can dissipate those hundreds of watts. But Peltiers can never move enough thermal power from a strong af dynamic heat(one that continuously converts energy into heat, in contrast ambient temperature water that we were making ice out of before does not continuously compensate temperature since its heat energy is gone once it cools) source like a CPU. (And if you really wanna do it, like reaallllly badly wanna do it, for every 100W(around that for a TDP?) of cooling on the cpu you need around 100W/0.05(eff) = 2000W of peltier units, and heat dissipation capacity of 1900W and your peltier should would prolly still not be able to work out due to problems in thermal conductivity. LOL, this was a long rant, but will prolly save some idiot his money.
PS - Imma just post it in main thread too, just in case so people can see it..
@@anubhavmuku96 wait, 5.45W ain't 10% of 545W, that'd be 54.5W.
@@AryaFairywren Ah yes, right. My bad. Well, the bottom line still stays the same tho.
@@anubhavmuku96 While their efficiency isn't as good as a gas transition heat pump, it's a bit unfair to to compare performance if you're running the TEC at 545W because that displays a complete lack of understanding of how to utilize them.
The coefficient of performance of a TEC scales badly. For example I'll use the TE-127-2.0-1.15 module.
If you run the TEC at 3v, you can pump ~25W of heat, with around 35W of waste heat with a temp difference of 10 degrees each side.
If you run the TEC at 15v, you can pump ~110W of heat, without around 350W of waste heat with a temp difference of 10 degrees each side.
That's 10x the wattage, for only 4x the amount of heat it can move from the cold side.
That's why it's insane to run a TEC at 545W, it's much more efficient to run many of them at low wattage.
True. And there is no way that this little block can cool 500W.
Everything goes right - Linus: "See I told you!"
Everything goes wrong - Linus: "See I told you!"
Everything goes left - Linus: "See I told you!"
WHAT!? 24:00
aka "how to act like a boss"
Everything goes up - Linus “See I told you!”
Everything goes down - Linus “See I told you!”
Linus would make a really shitty Mythbuster
Alex: pays thousands of dollars towards an engineering degree
Also Alex: Chop chop the bottom bit
Gotta use laymans terms for non-tech
To be honest - everything he does (at least what we can see in the videos) is very sketchy engineering-wise :D Degree wont help at all if somebody cant think like an engineer...
@@Trancelebration dude built buggies and stuff, the point of this videos is to do something sketchy, not a new super product
@@yuriibondar3757 Using AC SSR for DC and pretending its funny isnt sketchy, its straight stupid :)
@@emmaisalone yet they have time to play with cfd module inside solidworks premium package which takes a lot of time. I know I know... it has to be just "good enough".
I love Alex's face when Linus is speaking to the camera. The face of a kid who's waiting for their parent to finish talking with their friend.
The face of someone who has witnessed many many horrors.
I like to think that Linus knows all of his sponsors off by heart and all he needs is someone to tell him what the sponsors is.
Forget the thermoelectric effect. Hook that sucker up to the compressor on an actual AC unit.
Linus has an AC unit based system (that does work).
It's been done and it's very effective. Only problem is size of the machine.. it's about as big as the system it's cooling.
didn't asetek do double phase pc coolers at one point?
I have a single phase built in a case, that runs on 12v - very effective on the Athlon 64 x2 it cooled at the time!
See, the thing is, they’re not doing this because its a good idea. They do it because they can.
@@harambeexpress (barely)
Thought for sure they would cause a brownout on the west coast.
From only 900w? A microwave at full power is often over 1200w.
@@Combatpzman Not sure if you are being ironic, but the microwave only runs for few minutes (usually), that thing is supposed to be on for hours. ;)
@@Combatpzman Anything is possible when Linus is involved.
@@ZpeedTube Nothing ironic about it. The point is that in the grand scheme of things 900w is nothing. Is it a lot for a desktop computer meant for home use? Of course. For example A small window AC unit, which people run for hours, typically operates between 900-1200W depending on how hard it needs to work. A large outdoor unit would far exceed that. As would say your household oven, a washing machine, and more.
@Combatpzman
Amplifiers used for concerts are usually 1500 to 3000W, and they are often running ten or more of them at the same time.
16:10 their funnel has a label saying "FUNNEL"
They also have a hammer labeled "HAMMER"
Well what would _you_ do to remember what it is?
its for people who dont know this stuff better to just label everything.
@@itsomegali5342 who tf doesnt know what a funnel or a hammer looks like
When you have a label maker, everything gets labeled. Everything.
Linus: "It was a learning experience"
Alex: "Yeah"
Linus: "About listening to your boss next time"
.
.
.
.
.
.
Alex: "WHAT?"
"does not compute"
@@Desser57sléttu sléttu
I'm with Alex in that one
@@karikrummi4222 why is it flat
@@ImMonoToast song
The relay itself is the problem:
First, it's for AC power and expects the voltage to turn zero at some point. It turns off in the zero crossing.
DC voltage never turns to zero, so the relay will never turn off.
Also, it has a 1.6 volt voltage drop, so the peltier gets only 10.4 volts.
Please use a MOSFET next time. It will work way better, and we get to see even more sketchy LTT electronics. I love these videos!
do you expect LTT to actually know how to wire a mosfet? inb4 they use it in the linear zone and blow it up..
@@emperorSbraz Alex looks like a pretty capable guy, in the case he didn't know, he'd be capable of wiring a MOSFET correctly with a Google search.
It's just they don't care of doing this kind of projects more correctly, the concept is pointless to begin with
I assume the relay is a dumb component controlled by the thermo controller, which outputs the PID pulse to switch the relay (that switch the power). Therefore I'm not sure if it really matters if it is for controlling AC or DC.
I assume he used the PID as a modulating ( on/off) controller to drive the relay. Rather than a PI control loop. Doesn't look like it would of mattered tho.
@@FlameRat_YehLon Solid state relays are usually just a box with a thyristor inside. Thyristors can turn a current on, but they cannot turn it off. Only useful for AC since the current goes to zero 100 (120) times per second. With DC, the current doesn't go through zery by itself, thus the thyristor doesn't turn off.
It’s rated at 32 amps, and we’re expecting 32 amps...
Yeah, I’m just going to stand back here, behind the plexiglass, with the fire extinguishers.
Always use things that are rated for a higher load than what you are expecting. Helps keep things from burning and exploding.
yeah, don't you generally only run about 80% of a wire's maximum rating for safety?
@@MmMerrifield There are rating for continuous use. Using exactly the gauge rating is not it ;)
Yeah... a fire extinguisher with the safety pin still in it. Very useful in case of electrical fires, I tell you.
18:42 My favorite part of the video, it was totally necessary!
For future reference, get a CO2 extinguisher. It will still put out the fire, but wont hose your expensive GPU.
and maybe remove the safty pin too..... ;)
CO2 extinguishers don't work for electrical fires. For those, you need to get a powder extinguisher. Which would, by the way, still hose your expensive GPU.
@@Z3DT Maybe not... as long as the powder is not thermal conductive, a quick clean and the GPU should still work.
@@Z3DT just grabbed one of my extinguishers. An FE36 will work. Rated B,C so it will work on electrical fires. So no nuking components =D
@@Z3DT Read the label. CO2 extinguishers were designed for electrical fires. They do not work on grease fires.
Why not cool the water instead of the processor with a bunch of peltiers?
though the same thing, if this isnt the next thing they try it will probably be forgotten. cooling water would definitely work tho.
Build a buffer of cold water and in normal use it would work great, gaming for 24 hours or even 8 hours would probably overwhelm it
I second this!
@@H3nryum not if you cool it with normal radiators before going extra with peltiers after those.
I was just about to say this, you can run it at full power even.
Just do a thermal coil of some sort into the radiator
"There is no way we can just finish like this"
DO YOU NEED A BEAUTIFUL WEBSITE WITHOUT ALL THAT HASSLE?
You're right about thermodynamics is in play here, specifically the latent heat of vaporization of H2O. There's an inherent heat storage capacity to water that isn't there for the Peltier device. There's also the phenomenon of the difference between laminar flow vs. turbulent flow of water in a heat exchanger. If you have laminar flow through your water block, you can generate micro bubbles of steam in the water; that steam infused water can then be pulled away from the water block's heat exchange surfaces. In turn, the micro bubbles of steam infused in the water collapse and spread and disperse the thermal energy in the water downstream from the water block. That's the "inherent" heat storage capacity of water I was referring to earlier. That's what makes water coolers superior to Peltier devices or tech cooler devices, imo.
Linus: "we need it to spread the cooling"
Alex: *silently cringing in the distance*
Alex looks so cute around that section. At 4:09.
It's as bad as when someone explains transistors by saying "the holes move".
Overpowering peltier module raises its temperature instead of dropping it if heat removal isn't ideal.
There is a fine line of goodness.
Exactly this - at high power a TEC just becomes a resistive heater on both sides.
The water block is so thin
You're correct, I'm pretty sure the seebeck effect exists even if overpowered passed it's specifications, but it becomes that much harder to cool (resistive heating increases at a faster rate than the cooling effect) and the delta between the two sides decrease as the hot isn't cooled at a fast enough rate. The resistive heating effects always exist in it, that is why the final cooling solution needs to be able to cool a thermal load that is the peltier + the object being cooled.
@@guydevries8197, the massive of the water block isn't necessarily that important. The mass just effects the blocks heat capacity, but the main importance is the interface between the fluid and block, which is actually what moves the thermal energy out of the system.
I dunno but linus is addicted to pc cooling
💯%
@@TugAndThugComputing Johnny Johnny did you forget to change your account ?
You mean he's addicited to making PC.. cooler? :DDDDDD
@@the_guy_with_yeeyee_a_haircut uh
@@Agant. mostly yess :D
Interesting. I'd often wondered about using a Peltier for PC cooling, but not directly on the CPU. My thought was to use it more passively, in conjunction with a fan at the front or rear of the case to cool the air flowing into the case by 5 or 10 degrees while drawing only minimal power. The idea being that if the air being supplied to your standard air- or water-based CPU cooling rig is slightly cooler than ambient, you would see some increase in the performance of your cooling rig overall. Kind of like keeping servers in an air conditioned room, but in this case using a little modular box on the back of the case to create the AC effect. It would be interesting to hear your thoughts on this, Linus.
"There's no way we can just finish like this"
*Finishes just like this
womp womp
i thought it you said it...
...waiting for a #3.
Alex&Linus videos always feel like a what-if articles in a video format. And I absolutely love every second of it.
Alex is a genius! This is exactly what LTT should be all about! MAKE IT WORK!
Instead of trying to cool with the peltier directly you should try to use a standard water cooled loop setup but after the water has cooled in the radiator it should pass true the peltier then and get cooled to ambient or even sub ambient.
DO THIS
Who buys an expensive tap then doesn't use a vice?
alisdair butler it wouldn’t be LTT without some jenk
The funny thing is they have a vice
Linus - because what you fail to understand is, it only has to be "straight enough" - stop fussing over doing it right when you can do it janky.
My guess is people who are better at using software than tools? I am hoping to meet me someone who is good at everything, let me know if you find them.
@@AugmentedKing They're called engineers
Also, if you push too much heat into the TEC, it becomes an insulator.
You must have watched the last video they did on them!
@Owl Gaming no, it means they work. You should do it.
@Owl Gaming *whoosh*
20:52 this whole part seems very similar to the chernobyl accident...
“We’re at 900 watts on this thing!”
@@AndreiTache now add Mega before watts
May I suggest you try using a logic level mosfet next time instead of a solid state relay, Alex? Because as you probably found out during the making of this video, you cannot use a solid state relay to switch DC 🙄🤣 They can only be used to switch AC waveforms that cross through zero.
A solid state relay (henceforth SSR) is nothing more than a triac with an additional zero crossing detection circuit. Although they are very different, the triac component in a SSR performs a function similar to that of a mosfet; where, for example, an active logic signal causes a current to flow.
A very important difference between a mosfet and a triac is that once latched (and conductive) the triac cannot unlatch (and return to a state of isolation) unless the AC waveform crosses through zero, where as a mosfet can unlatch at will.
This is the function of the zero crossing detection circuit; all it does is ensure that if the triacs logic signal becomes active somewhere halfway through the AC waveform, the actual latching of the triac is delayed until the waveform once again crosses through zero. Latching at any other point during the AC waveform has the serious potential of resulting in an enormous (potentially triac destroying) current surge immediately upon latching. Unless you're lucky, and the triac happens to latch precisely at the zero crossing point of the AC waveform, after which the current is allowed to rise gradually with the voltage.
_[Important note: just as a triac is unsuitable for switching DC, a mosfet is unsuitable for switching AC!]_
I hope this clears things up a bit 😁 I know the chance you'll read this is so low I might as well be talking to a wall, but perhaps there is a slight chance another soul will come and stumble across this information and find it useful somehow. Who knows, they might potentially even learn something 😊
(If I made a mistake please correct me in a reply to this comment _in a friendly manner please_ and I'll happily modify this comment!)
It seems that Alex, just like me, is a mechanical engineer. We know very little about electricity (I've had like 2 classes in university for one semester). I learned everything what I know when I was working in electronic retail shop as my first job. I did my master's degree on Meredith's effect and pressure carburetors!
SSR's work just fine with DC signals and do not require any zero crossing. There are IGBT, Mosfet and Bipolar versions from different manufacturers.
You are thinking of an AC-only Solid State Relay... basically an optically isolated triac.
Crydom D2D40 is a perfect example.
They could have just avoided the high current switching by using the enable pin on the power supply
Linus 2019: 'A PID controller is like an On/Off switch'
Linus 2020: 'A computer is like a spinich'
Linus 2021: A spinach is like a rock
Linus 2022: A rock is like a stone
Linus 2023: Weekends are like applesauce
@@AaronzDad "Weekends are like Applesauce" sounds like a Dave Barry book title.
For those who have not heard of PID controllers, it's more like a smart, variable power supply that goes positive and negative.
Alex: There’s no way we can just finish like this.
Linus: *smiles*
*AD STARTS PLAYING*
GEOTHERMAL cooled pc. It might be just crazy enough.
While we're doing that lets put a PC in outer space
Do you know that that would pretty much mean heating the pc rather than cooling it
not really if the water or whatever is like 25* it might actually work
Microsoft did it off Ireland. Works great.
Already been done actually..
A few years ago some startup company created a bitcoin mining facility inside a mountain.
The mountain already had a building tunneled out inside as it used to be an old Russian military base.
The temperature is so low inside that they have no cooling.
The "Oh my god!" moment of the overflow was the first genuine laugh I have had in days.. wasn't watching LTT for that experience, but thank you, I needed it!
There's no way that little water flow can stop it from overhearting
Yeah exactly. That needed serious water flow, the water block heating up that quickly says it and/or the water flow were undersized.
The sad thing is, that they don't understand peltiers apperently. The water was not able to get the heat away. Meaning the peltier cannot cool and will just act as a heater. Linus brilliant idea: Cranck up the heater you put on your cpu even higher.
Thanks!! Yah i would not rull out this before they can keep the hot side alot cooler.. as i recall the delta t will drop when getting hotter.. so a theoretical hot/cold temp of 70c is not at a burning hot side.
It is not a good solution power wise!
I did an 85w with water on a celeron 300@504 -17c idle 0c load..
Back in the day.
Peltiers never gonna work on something that is actively producing heat like a CPU ... The actual cooler is the radiator here ... If they directly use it with the CPU and water block it would do better job ...
@@anikdey2100 explain to me why my old cpu was -19c at idle and 0c under load with peltier and water.. with a room temp of 22c
im getting whole room flashbacks with those fans and radiator, the cable mess and evrything..
Tecs get less efficient as the power consumption goes up so cranking it up to 900w might not be as effective as keeping it at 200w. Also expect a 10c delta across the tec so for sub ambient multiple tecs should be used with a larger cooling system
"So we got this high power module."
Module. As in modular.
I'm betting on a sweet spot on 2-300w into the TEC. Any more would demand way to much from the heat sink. I think the copper water block got overwhelmed, not enough water flow and speed.
I do the opposite of this. I use multiple TECs in a small cooling system but the system is half-assed and intended for chilling multiple things in a water loop, not forcing heat away from a TEC in the loop.
@@hank7281 im not sure what point you're trying to say. No shit the tec is a module. What does that have to do with anything
@@DaemonForce they overloaded the one radiator. He calculated 500w without including the cpu heat. And even then it was at 50c meaning the cold side would be at 40.
*Linus* - "tech cooling is and was a bad idea"
*Intel / cooler master* - "Hold our beers"
Linus - "were gonna use tec, in the worst possible way you can"
@@phillstevenson4931 they really did the worst possible design they could. The copper part on top of the tec for water cooling
it -that was actually obvious its not gonna dump the heat- was a beautiful, neat, amazing mess 😂
Next video:
Can you cool a PC with radiators from the ISS?
„After telling you about our sponsor: NASA!“
Overclocking from the dark side of the moon.
Well with this we were able to reach temperatures around 10K...
I know it's a joke, but normal radiators won't work in space
What about Water cooled Mobo ..... Mobo literally in water... 100% heat transfer, nothing wasted.
You know it's going to be a good video when Alex puts on is engineer uniform...
+10 to intelligence.
not a very good engineer obviously.
i think an air cooling will suit for this because TEC is "collect" heat extreme fast, air cooler just fit very well for this. Water cooling transfer heat isn't that fast compare to a huge metal fin heat sink.
Luke was the king of janky projects
Was?
have you seen floatplane?
@@BlazeABD no? What happend?
Now Alex is the king
What about the privacy monitor, Luke knifed a display
I'll be honest, I think Whole Room Water Cooling was one of the best things ever, and I want a new version of it. I don't know what they could do at this point, but I think it was an awesome idea, and could absolutely work. I've seen similar setups work extremely well with only a couple computers, and LTT has the capacity and means to do a "whole room" unlike so many others.
Some day I hope they do a 2.0, or have a reason to. Maybe just not the editors den..
Man, alex's stuff is getting super impressive. Kudos to you guys
"So the block design is working as intended- OH MY GOD WHAT IS GOING ON HERE!"-Linus in a nutshell
I only hit the left arrow key to rewatch that about 20 times, ya know. the usual.
@@PhaseFalcon same lol
"we have a tap wrench."
*Proceeds to use it without a vise.*
Also doesn't lubricate it...
Have you never heard of the 437w Arctic Web TEC? I ran one for years on my C2Q9300 (and still have it). Used a heater core for a radiator with an electric car radiator fan running on 5v to cool it. Fed the 24v peltier with ~15v and got a below-freezing idle temp, with about 15C full-load temp with a 1Ghz overclock.
Insulated the motherboard around the CPU (both front and back) as well as coating it with dielectric grease to protect the board from condensation.
if you do water cooling aswell, then I would rather use the Peltier to cool the water and not the chip directly
That makes slot more sense
Man, they should do some of this awesome invention videos with ElectroBOOM, it would be awesome.
Javier Macias good idea! The whole studio would be on FIRE!
Shortage on 10K $$ so AWESOME!!!
They could continue this project with the awesome TechIngredients
best idea ever
congrats Alex, you really stepped up your game in the last year. The flow simulation really blew my mind! Keep up this quality of content!
Watching back these older vids it's interesting to see how your production has improved; use of wide shots for conversations, audio mix with the background music being lower, and less filming of computer monitors to explain concepts all help the videos flow better, and probably make the editors jobs easier. Just goes to show that even the best still have room to improve. These videos are great, but your current stuff is even more refined.
"There's no way we can just finish like this"
[HARD CUT TO SPONSORS]
It was perfect. ^^
10:56
"It only needs to be straight enough"
- Linus, 2019
I'm fairly sure Yvonne will say that Linus *is* straight enough.
But probably only just.
The amount of shortcuts taken in this video is unreal
Thought I'd see my *grandkids* before this video.
nah you'll be dead before they're born
@@Noksus oof
I thought I'd get a girlfriend before this video came out
A Linus 😁
thought I'd see my dad...
"award winning templates" I 100% want to go to the awards ceremony for best web developing templates.
Why not use the peltier as a "radiator", cooling the water, and not directly on the processor?
And what would you use to cool the hot side?
@@TwskiTV Another peltier obviously
@@TwskiTV elsa.
@@TwskiTV another water cooling radiator?
And then another water cooling loop to cool the loop that's coolong the peltier
It's fantastic to finally see Alex firing on all cylinders and be able to use his engineering skills. Even if the TEC didn't work, that waterblock is gorgeous.
13:00 you could just flip the polarity
They have a preferred polarity, and you should get it right if you are going to nearly double the max power
@@abrickwalll it's not about the power, it's about the energy from within
@@Leadvest OK now i will know
@Ali Nassereddine i knew i wasnt the only one FUCK lol....... I kept trying to wipe it off and then i thought my monitor was scratched
@alexi Todaze goddamn you i kept trying to wipe the hair off my screen.... and then when i couldnt i thought my monitor was fucked up and/or scratched..
Generally with a TEC set up you use it to chill the water in the loop. Then pop an air cooler on the TEC. I've done it, worked great for me.
PWM isn't ideal for peltier modules, it will harm their cooling efficiency. You'd almost have filter the PWM to get a varying DC signal instead.
Linus: But hey it was a learning experience.
Alex: Yeah.
Linus: About listening to your boss next time.
Alex: *WHAT?*
I love the Alex experimental videos!! Keep it up guys
1. If you don't use the right ssr, it won't turn off when using dc
2. You want a T type tc to measure sub freezing temps
3. look at the ssr derating curve. they only can handle their max amps when they are cool
But it's not even a SOLID state relay, since your hear the click, which makes it a regular magnetic relay.
@@the_unkilled2238 the clicking was probably coming from the temperature controller. the ink bird block is an ssr
@@the_unkilled2238 The "SSR-40 DA" is a real Solid State Relay, i think this click comes from the PID regulator. It may has a small signal output relay for isolation purposes.
And yes the "A" in the name stands for AC so it realy can't switch off again when DC current goes through it.
Still a good idea from LTT to use a SSR nevertheless.
@cedric1997 A solid state relay is not a relay? Okay.
@@VEKTOR4477 I think they are using the SSR to switch the entire second power supply off
Using 12V on-off is a realy bad way of controling a tec
LOL I haven't programmed a PID in two decades now, but looks like they're still just as PITA as ever. Sad to see it didn't even help. BUT (dun dun dun!) maybe putting the Peltier cooler on the CPU itself was the bad idea. What if it was used as a secondary cooling phase (so placed after the rad) to cool the water going into a normal CPU water block? So CPU - AIC - Peltier - CPU? So two sets of radiators. An AIC for the CPU and a massive rad for a janky Peltier. Arguably (not really) pointless as you COULD just use the massive rad alone to cool the CPU in a normal watercooled setup ... but where's the fun in doing things the sane way?
I 100% agree with this and have spent a lot of time looking to see what it would take to do this. I'd put the main rad on the top blowing, and the other on the front...
I said the same, albeit not nearly as well stated. 2 phase cooling! Do it!
5:05 on the bottom right side was really disappointing.
what
I noticed that since Linus first started this project the stock in UPS power supply company's rose dramatically.
The PS part in UPS already means power supply. "UPS power supply" is redundant.
@@megapro125 No, he's trying to supply power to power supplies with power supplies
.
.
.
Actually I think they're called load banks.
"If I have to blast a TITAN RTX I'm gonna be so pissed off"
I'm sure there is a cheap as crap PCIe graphics card somewhere in the warehouse they can use until they are satisfied it's booting correctly before testing further
Would also had helped in the event of shit going sideways if he had pulled the pin for the extinguisher before pointing it.
But where is the fun in that?
As suggested by some commenters, it would be way better to cool the water using the TEC and stay within its maximum efficiency zone. More power doesn't mean more cooling. You'll have to dump that heat the TEC is generating somewhere or it will start to heat up. Cool the CPU loop radiator with multiple TECs and cool the multiple TECs with another loop. That way the CPU block should receive cooler water and the TECs dump their heat into another radiator so it doesn't interfere with the CPU loop. In theory, this _should_ work as long as you don't overdrive the TECs.
Make sure that Solid state relay you use is for direct current! One for AC will stay on if DC is used!
also there is a difference between AC or DC PWM signal.
So you're telling me you've got a T-series temperature controller ( 5:05 )
How did you notice that? The text is so small!
I'd be more surprised by a PewDiePie controller
@@twistiv don't know if this is a whoosh moment but like I noticed it without seeing this comment right away
Waiting for this comment to blow up...
Der Bauer build a very capable TEC-cooler years ago. Maybe ask him for advice
Is that guy even human???
Go one step further.
Standard water block -> large radiator to bring temp to ambient -> tec cooling array to bring coolant subzero -> back to water block.
Fyi, peltiers have three energy balance equations including internal resistive heating, conductive thermal transfer and seebeck thermal transfer. As your temp delta goes up the tec efficiency drops and the resistive heating takes over resulting in your tech becoming predominantly a heater on both sides. Amping up the voltage and current just drives more resistive heat load.
Also as the temperature delta increases, a reverse voltage is generated which subsequently further drops the seebeck heat transfer performance.
Fun times 🤠
17:45 "Don't touch that!" D:
electroboom: explodes and catches fire
Yeah, thermoelectric coolers aren't really meant to cool a continuous heat load like that very well. I knew an engineer who specializes in thermoelectric coolers and the main scenario he used them for was when a piece of equipment needed to be kept at a very precise temperature, such as optics in a spy plane camera.
"It's probably the jankiest thing we've ever made" Alex just reminding us he wasn't around for Scrapyard Wars.
What on scrapyard wars was yankier than alex' cooling adventures
@@diewollsocke2674 the DIY water-cooling episode.
@@diewollsocke2674 Linus climbing a tree to fill a tube with sugar
Was thinking I would love to see another junkyard wars
"It's probably the jankiest think we've ever made" yet
The PID controllers are pretty good things.
Often used in labs and metalworking industry to control the temperature in muffle furnaces.
Heat treatment for steel or otherwise simply maintaining a stable unchanging temperature within the chamber.
BTW, that's why it doesn't read negative temperatures, it's intended for high temperatures, such as from the 600's to over 1k Celsius.
Everyone gangsta till the cooler draws 696969 watts
Alex seems to really know his engineering and physics stuff. I love it! More technical talk from this guy!
they must have missed the thermodynamics class....
Linus took thermal paste lessons from the verge 😂😂
I want another channel that is run by Alex where he just does design and engineering stuff in a lot of detail. It doesn't need to be this kind of camera or editing quality, I'd just like to see... DETAILS.
And actually give him the time to complete projects and not have to throw them together at the very end.
@@zac.s Knowing myself and my perfectionism, I don't think a lot would be finished finished. Everything would always be imperfect and not yet ready.
linus: its so dangerous might catch on fire
also linus: puts it with RTX TITAN and Crystalic rams
Linus would be the only person holding live wires carrying 900 WATTS and getting exited
Plenty of people have held live wires and got excited...
Better to be excited rather than shocked
its just 24v, not going to harm him!
@@user-hm9fj9nc1o Fr
@@zanw.awesome3102 but stil if things go wrong 900 watts is 900 watts
long story short, linus tech tips still doesn't understand TEC's.
"Waste heat from the TEC..." - yeah, I always thought TECs were essentially heat pumps, transferring heat from one side to the other. I imagine there's some heat from internal resistance, but that sounds a wee bit odd.
Or much else.
Standard.
@@MattExzy You get two separate heat sources with a TEC the heat being pumped based off the power you put into it and the heat generated from the power put into it. From everything i've seen you want to run them at 60% capacity for maximum heat pumped and minimal heat generated within the TEC. The PED was a step in the right direction but it still only controls how long the TEC is on maximum cooling like a thermostat for an A/C.
@@Championjcc608 TEC's are simple electric heat pumps. I hope Alex/Linus revisit this because they made that stuff all sorts of wrong and I would like to see a high wattage TEC implemented correctly. They need a much larger copper/aluminum block on the cold side to act as a buffer and a variable wattage power supply programmed to the heat differential in between the cpu side and the cold side of the TEC to try and keep it optimal. They were just wasting a lot of power and overloading the TEC.
and also blew up the one in the vid with waaaay over spec voltage
Watching Linus tap that plexi is _physically painful_
Why did you buy that workshop of you're gonna ignore it!
8@
The workshop section was them standing at a computer explaining their plan/designs. The lack of machining/fabrication footage was really disappointing.
@@PettyVagrant its pretty neat seeing lazer cutting machines and cnc machines working. Getting a false back on my desk using lazer cutting
Dunno why they aren't putting the tap in a drill press to keep it square...
@@robywankenobi32 Doubt he has one, he could have put it flat on the table though. Every time he does DIY it's painful.
EZ PZ:
CPU block > 360 rad > 2x aquarium peltier.
Cool liquid like normal, THEN chill.
Edit: As @tommihommi1 pointed out in his reply to this comment, this setup in not good for sub-ambient cooling(although I personally see this as a positive due to the reduced likelihood of condensation).
doesn't work, since the rad will actually heat up the liquid once you're below ambient
@@tommihommi1 fair point, but going below ambient would only increase chances of condensation anyways. It's not great for getting sub-zero but in theory that just means it'll self regulate around room temp without the need for any of their crazy control setup
@@bamholian4567 just stay below ambient, but above the condensation point. Pretty easy to do in air conditioned rooms
Loved this episode, I tried this back in 2006, pretty much did exactly what was done here minus the temp regulator and my water loop started boiling, The pipe burst off the radiator and that was the end of that idea. I also first tried with a tiny peltier cooler which was useless but then ordered an industrial grade peltier and the outcome was the boiling water loop as I mentioned. It would be awesome if this kind of technology actually worked.
it does work just not in that application. car coolers use them
cool the water not the cpu directly i use 2 12706 and keep 26c temps in texas
I am designing a cooling system for a giant telescope mirror. I never thought that LTT would be a resource I would use to design the thing. You guys are the best!
Linus TEC Tips
Do a massive heat spreader. But have the computer in a vacuum so no condensation can form. And send they bad boy cryogenic.
this setup is a fail... cool the water with a custom peltier heat exchanger, before it enters a normal waterblock.
@@gerthddyn ohh ok
Did Peltier cooling back when it was needed, more than 10 years ago. Had one of the massive aluminum Lian Li cases with room for 12 hard drives on the bottom. After the cpu or gpu you send the water to a radiator. Which then feeds the reservoir. This brings the water to roughly room temp. Then you cool the water, with a different pump system cooling the peltiers. All in all, 3 x 3 fan radiators and 1 x 2 fan. With a 1 gallon res. 1250 watt EVO galaxy PSU and 450 watt Thermaltake side by side psu. Peltiers took about 600 W in total.
Anyways, give the system the same cooling as a radiator first then cool it with peltiers. Don't remember the Intel CPU. but it was stock clocked at 3.2 with 4 cores(best cpu at the time was 3.6x4). With radiator alone water cooling could hit 4.2 stable. With peltiers the way I stated, it would go up to 4.8 stable and all the way to 5.4 (unstable).
The only reason I would pull my old case out of storage and do this again, is I had money to throw away. Air cooled with a decent set up works today. These are no longer the days where Crysis made your system have a mental breakdown.
Even though it didn't work very well i think this is my favorite episode
@Linus Tech Tips - protip, if you mount peltier element backwards, just switch wires and it will switch around its hot and cold side ;)
edit: also maybe you could use PS_ON instead of SSR
edit2: Peltiers take up to 15V
@Jan Nowak You should only run a Peltier element at 60% to get max efficiency. 12x30 is 360 so it puts them pretty close to the 60%. Still over by a bit actually. I agree though that they don´t know anything. AC relay when using DC current :D Although I think they took it out when they used the variable DC supply.
did either of you even watch the video or what
I just like that they connected PID to a relay.
Love that discussion about confidence at 16:21 :D
But how efficient is your water block for directly cooling a CPU..?? How did you forget that.
@@guptadagger896 the whole point of tec is sub ambient cooling potential
@@mikecrapse5285 Then why not use the TEC to cool the incoming water to sub ambient instead?
@@mikecrapse5285
Cooling a 200W system with extra 420W load of cooler ! WTF is math ?
Even AIO vendors sell Asetek equipments under their name, they do test it gradually for every +1°C temp to find efficiency, economy & failure points. No one goes rushing for peak values.
@@frederf3227 Doesn't worth it, overclockers tried it 15+ years ago & yield is so short as compared to LN2.
Also you have keep eye on pump & flow rate, cause as you go up for more cooling there are chances of freezing & choking the path, eventually *zappp...!*
the design didn't make sense why make a custom block instead of just using the TEC to cool the res water or the rad instead
make a custom rad instead of a custom block
"This is PID controller!" Then explains that it works like standard, dumb, simple hysteresis controller... 🤣
Yes but it's pulse width modulated...hint use 4-20ma output and behave like a lamp dimmer
@@johngermain5146 Are you sure? I saw it going crazy with cooling and then opposite. No glance with stable PID (or slowly going out of stable stage).
@@MariuszChr 1st they autotuned the PID controller at possibly room temperature. Then, like you said, the temperature ramped down then up so fast that it appeared to function as an on/off controller which as we know has a few degrees of hysteresis. Had the tuning been performed at the temperature of interest, and the temperature rate of change wasn't so fast we would have seen the relay operating within the proportional bandwidth. The relay is on/off only so the only way to control the temperature within the proportional band is to adjust the duty cycle which will work but is not as good as true PID with adjustable voltage output which you can get with 4-20ma output. It was all in fun and reminded me of the days when I worked on temperature controlled plating tanks using steam to heat the solution. Steam holds a lot of heat capacity and temperatures rocket up as soon as a little is released. Thanks for the input.
Their SSR was designed for AC power (it has triac inside). So when they applied power relay was locked to on state
@@matucha123 We were using the SSR to turn the PSU on and off (from the plug)
It breaks my heart that this didn't work, but I still feel like there has to be a way to get sub-zero CPU temps consistently without hazards even if the tradeoff is energy use/heat mitigation...
It's simple, an air conditioner
there is... these guys just went about it stupidly...... this works if you dont do it the way they did.....cool the water tank not the cpu directly
Hi linus,
I think you got to change your approach. Back in the day 2000 -2002, I created a liquid cooling set put for my pc using car cabin heat exchanger, 3 inch 220v fan, windshield washer motor 12v and a Jar of jam as coolant reservoir.
If you want to give another try to this tech then you need to use 3, 100watts paltier sandwiched one over another. One connected to 12v , 5,5v and 3 volts respectively. In that way you will have the ability to reach sub zero temperatures of about -40 degree c.
Now what I want you to do is keep on the the air cooler on the processor. As that’s the efficient way to cool it. Use the paltier cooler with the liquid cooling block along side and connect it to the air cooler so that the heat exchange takes place. Paltier alone will not have enough power to cool off a processor that outputting around 80 - 100watts of heat.
Our main aim here is to get the temperature down so that the processor can be used at higher clock speeds. This is the way I think will work. Let me know what you think.
Cheers
"It worked really well for quite a while." - Alex on the Hindenburg
RIP 36 Hindenburg Victims
@Rob Rutgers Fotografie 😂 Yeah, technically 🤷🏼♂️