BIG CHONKER VIDEO INCOMING. So how about those Agarthans?! Another Fire Emblem Three Houses video, but this is a huge one about our favorite slithery baddies. Hope y'all enjoy the show. This took a lot of work to write and edit, so please leave a like and comment below your thoughts to help this video's ratings for the sick algorithm. Finally, if you haven't subscribed yet but this video has appeared in your feed, please do so! The channel JUST hit 92 000 subscribers. But we're still a ways away from the Play Button. Thanks!
Of he's the best he's the SAVIOR of ALL! Actually how did Jeritza get his hands on the Sytche Of Sariel and why he give it up in caspars and mercedes paralogue Actually why have Agarthain made weapons either given out directly or just lying in the hands of theives The Devil Weapons Spear of Indra Sytche of Sariel Wouldn't that be suspicious having weapons made from unknown ores and materials seems kinda suspicious
Faerghast.. it bugs me Many playable characters in game do not acknowledges that People of Duscar Were innocent nearly wiped out and Kingdom committed A Great sin.. it's comes off as a poorly written version of the Serene Massacre from Path of Radiance
One thing I'll say. I think Romance of the Worlds Perdition is actually written long after the events it describes due to the fact that it's referred to as a romance, and not, say, a history. With that in mind, the incredibly biased perspective is to be expected. EDIT: Forgot to mention, but I personally think Pan was more of a Myson/Cornelia type who eventually became genuinely loyal to Loog and Kyphon and helped orchestrate Faerghus' alliance with the Church. Speaking of that, I think this was actually one of Rhea's smartest moves, basically turning an Agarthan weapon into a stalwart ally and forcing them to retreat and cut their losses.
Sorry for the additional comment, but I do not think Thales is a cold, unfeeling high-functioning psychopath, but rather a slightly more competent fascist dictator, infected with the same mind poison the other Agarthans have. He may not be a barely functional brute like Kronya, but when it counts, he's just as arrogant and liable to slip up as the rest of them, and when things go wrong, his more impulsive, temperamental side shows.
They should have made the Agarthans more like the Enclave from Fallout 2, instead of being an entire people, they could just have been the surviving goverment of the old world and be the direct descendants of all their leaders and the military, which would justify a harsh response more than anything. Have them just be a generation diffrent from the rest due to ancient technology. Also the Enclave is not just more nuanced, they are more evil and yet better to understand than the Agarthans.
For a game that's so big about nuances, perspective and morally ambiguous characters, the Agarthans REALLY stand out as stupidly evil. Their lore is the only thing I find interesting about them.
i mean there is a reason they are not the final boss in any route. They are supposed to be set up for the three houses fighting eachother and nothing more.
@@kayden2119 I agree. I just wish they found a way to make them MORE than that. Edelgard could have been just "the evil conqueror", and Rhea "the corrupted church leader", but they manadged to build on that and make complex characters that still serve their purpose to the story.
@@BlackfangDragon True! Still, I find the Agarthans boring. And it seems to me they contradict the whole 'there's no bad guys, just people and their ideals' theme of Three Houses.
@@mio2466 it could have been made so all three factions are somehow responsible for the war. maybe all three leaders (the actual rulers, not the house leaders) end up committing atrocities against the other side, thus starting a war. once they pass on and the lords take center stage, the political situation force them to continue the war despite despite being on friendly terms with each other. maybe all three genuinely believe the other two lords have turned evil and want to win the war for a better future. either way, i want a true 3 way conflict rather than the empire fighting an unrelated fourth faction, the kingdom being collateral, and the alliance not really being its own faction
I think Kronya is a case where she showed up in the marketing, so people (myself included) assumed she would be around longer or more important to the plot.
Tbh I was gonna suggest her as possible recruitable Agarthan in another comment, but looking back on it she is instrumental in sowing absolute havoc in the monastery itself. She kills Jeralt, and is responsible for the summoning of Demonic Beasts inside the monastery.
My two favorite endings in FE (for the games I've been able to play) have been Awakening and Verdant Wind. Awakening has such good buildup to it. The scene where everyone calls out to Robin is fantastic, and a true reminder of the main theme of the game. Plus, this isn't a normal threat-- Grima is the size of a mountain, and it's up to you to decide how to truly end it all. And then VW is just so gosh darn ridiculous with going down into Area 51 and fighting mole people who have dubstep and nukes and then a grandpa zombie bandit lord with hardcore opera
I’ll second this. I love the ending of awakening, and I love the ending of VW even more. There is something perfect about Nemesis is only fought in VW. Claude is the closest thing you get in this game to an unbiased narrator, even if he keeps his cards close to his chest early on. But Claude is able to look past the politics of Fodlan & follow his dream, & because he has that outlook he’s able to solve the real problem that set Fodlan on the path to what it became: Defeat Nemesis.
The "modern" Agarthans were totally evil and irredeemably so, but they didn't start out that way and their descent into evil actually makes a whole lot of sense. To begin with, there is one undeniable fact about Sothis: She is an invader. Fodlan was already populated by people when she decided to set up shop. While she may have been benevolent, a dictator is still a dictator. Think of it as your mom showing up to your house one day and then going back to treating you like a child, dictating your life and choices. That would get on even the most even-headed person's nerves. So the Argarthans eventually growing cold and hostile towards the Nabaateans and Sothis was pretty much inevitable, especially given that they were treated as lesser than the Nabaateans. After the war, they were forced underground, into exile. Now, here's the part that leads to their current incarnation: Resentment festers when everyone around you feels it. They are isolated from the world because revealing themselves would lead to their destruction. They blame the loss of their home on Sothis (semi-rightfully, she DID invade their home, but their actions resulted in their exile). Exiled people tend to hold grudges, and when everyone is holding that grudge, forgive and forget is kinda off the table. So their second attack on the Nabaateans results in the War of Heroes, where Nemesis falls and they are forced back into hiding. Not to mention, fellow humans decide to side with the remaining Nabaateans. This results in their hate towards them, referring to them as "beasts", seeing them as essentially trained animals doing Sothis's bidding. So, their loss of home, autonomy and subsequent perceived betrayal by the fellow humans, coupled with their long exile and isolation, leads to a VERY unhealthy outlook. So, even though they are comically evil, it's not unprecedented.
Being honest, one thing I always thought would've been nice would've been that Kronya, instead of being a psycho, was actually a character that acted more out of self-preservation, like, she acted as she did because it was in her best interest, because she knew that Agasthans don't tolerate failure, and as such, tried to go her mission the best as she could, and when she got ambushed in the forest, she grows frustrated instead of going full murderhobo, she had almost completed her mission, she could go back home, and now Byleth and their class want to take that chance away from her, so she lashes out, wanting them dead, not because of her being a psychopath, but because they are a nuisance to her and a risk to her safety. Not only that would make her more interesting and sympathetic, but also worthy of being a redeemed character that might join the group. I have two possible moments for that to happen, one is exactly after Byleth is caught in the spell Solon uses, and the other is as a paralogue in the war phase. If it was exactly after what happened with Solon, she would be in complete despair, she has lost her home, she has been betrayed, she has nothing else, and all she has left is to disappear in the spell she is in, with that in mind, a new map would appear, one made of darkness, with several places where you can light fires to see better, but acting more like a fog of war map if not done. Here there would be two ways of going about it, either follow the cry for help of Kronya, who is fighting against creatures made of pure darkness while she can't barely fight, since she is being overrun by the enemies, or leave without her. Leaving without her would be a lot easier, since she is getting many of the enemies busy and they haven't picked up on your presence except for the weaker versions that aren't a difficult enemy to deal with, but you will lose the ability to get her, and when you get to her, you will be able to save her by giving her the athame back, which will be a 1-2 range weapon now and has a might of 9 instead of 6, thanks to the spell that took them there having awakened the sleeping power of the athame (I always thought that for an agarthan weapon, the fact that it was worse than normal weapons was weird, and would synergize well with her keen intuition, being the only usable unit that can use it as her personal skill), since she lost it and that was why she wasn't able to fight back, and she was holding on with an iron sword (which will break if you don't help her soon enough). Once you get to her, she will ask you why you do it? She killed Byleth's father after all, but thinking that saying that will make you leave her behind in there (and also, not talking about it in there makes it a possible topic to talk in the support conversations), she stops saying it and says trying to convince you of helping her "Strength in numbers is our only way out I guess. If we want to survive, we might have to do this together." and both leave the place, while having to fight more of this creatures, that are starting to cause more trouble, and if you haven't lit the torches in the level, you don't see where they are coming from (this level would probably be a nightmare in the higher difficulties, so, I can see people leaving Kronya alone because of that, but, again, saving someone is more difficult than leaving them there, but even in that case, you would still get the athame). And if you make it to the end with her, she will say "I don't know why you came there, but thank you and... sorry about what happened outside.", refering at the fact that she killed Byleth's father and then, through the Sothis fusion thing, Byleth breaks from the spell and this time, Kronya is with him, and ready to defeat Solon, having a unique dialogue with him if they both fight, where she is furious with him for leaving her to die there, and he says that she has outlived her purpose, and he intends to fix that as soon as possible. If it was a paralogue, however, she would be spotted in the forest where she was defeated, but she wouldn't be recognized since people were only able to see a moving shadow and dead animals, and when you find her, she is honestly in a horrible state, she is completely berserk and not only attacks you, but also some beasts that are in the forest, that also attack her, but aren't much of a threat to her, since they are hitting from afar and she is dodging like crazy. She has been years in that spell, and you can see the effects that had on her mind, since she is freaking out all of the time, her hair is long and messed up, and the sting-like things in her suit have the tips broken, with one going so far as being ripped in the middle, and her stare is one of unbridled horror. Whatever was in that darkness really traumatized her, and since she had to fight tooth and nail to get out of there, maybe the way byleth got away weakened the spell enough for her to get out. And there would be a choice again, first defeat the beasts, which is necessary for her to join in that part, and then fight her, and if is Byleth the one who deals the finishing blow, there will be a choice like with Lysithia, where they can spare her now that she is no longer a threat, or exact their revenge against her for killing their father. Depending on which one it was, the dialogues in the support conversations would be different. In the first one, Kronya would be a lot more apologetic and trying to explain herself, as she sees that even though she was saved by Byleth, they look like they are still holding grudge over her past actions, and explains why they did what they did, talking about Agartha and who the agarthans are, and why she believed in their cause, but also felt so betrayed when Solon used her to cast the spell, while in the second one, her dialogue would be more of a sittuation where she realizes that she has nowhere to go now, and as such, tries to find a way to be of service to the rest of the group, because that's what she knows, that she is only appreciated when she is of use, and uses that mentality inside Byleth's army, something that makes Byleth furious, because at first he thinks that Kronya is acting like she can fix what she did with simple things like he thinks she is doing, but when she expreses why she does this in the A support, it's made clear that the reason why she does this is out of fear of abandonment, being left out again, while at the same time explaining what she saw in those who slither in the dark. This probably is too long of a comment, but felt like it could be an interesting way of looking at how a possible Kronya redemption might look if she wasn't a psychopath, but more of a grounded character.
After experiencing mobius from xenoblade 3, I can’t hate the villains of 3 houses like I use to. Also nobody can top how corny and evil for evil’s sake king Garon was.
This video is wonderfully made! I always hated that this game had so much lore in the background yet we were forced to take part in some unnecessary war. They should’ve given us more cutscenes or something! The fact that dimitri and edelgard’s arc end without them getting revenge was so stupid to me. I hope the sequel coming out answers more questions because there is so much lore and world building, left on the table.
I honestly wish even half of the cool lore you just covered was properly conveyed through the game itself. Like, actual cutscenes and campaigns rather than little bits and pieces sprinkled throughout the entire thing.
Imagine if they do a dlc/game where you play as the agarthans before the events of 3 houses. That way we can learn first hand about everything that happens and can even introduce some morally gray characters who arent 100% on board with Thalas’ plan
The agarthans were villains that almost seemed unrealistic. They have so much power but only desire to do risky things for revenge. They are all shown as emotionless brilliant cunning individuals, yet seemingly none of them understood that they could use their advanced technologies to just leave and conquer a different territory away from the church and never have to deal with the Nabataeans. They could have just left several hundred years ago, and it would make much more sense. They hated the nabateans for forcing them underground, but they could just leave and be above ground forever and just become a new aboveground society. I just don't understand their motives if they're supposed to be so smart...
Maybe it's because my interest lies primarily in characters, not lore, but I can't say this video changed my mind about the slithers as a faction. They're just bad villains, on every account, probably designed solely for the purpose of turning Edelgard from the main villain into a "gray" character. The game really wants you to think Edelgard is a gray character and not the iredeemable spawn of Satan for some reason. I wouldn't be surprised if the slithers' inconsistencies came from that. Think about it: 1) Dimitri is spared in Duscur, somehow. 2) there's this weird plotline where Dimitri goes crazy enough to think Edelgard killed his parents. Wouldn't it all make a lot more sense if Edelgard did actually kill people in Duscur as a child in proto Fe3H? Sparing Dimitri, her first love, would make sense then. And so would Dimitri going crazy when he recognizes his parents' murderer in full feathery regalia. Anyways, even the past accomplishments of slithers don't quite strike me as smart or inspired. For instance, about Loog's rebellion, considering the Church eventually aknowledged Faerghus and they were in a good relationship when the game started, can dividing the empire really be called an accomplishment ? Meh. I don't know. For me, since there's no playable character who's an Agarthan, or has a strong personal relationship with Agarthans, it's hard to even consider them part of the game. The fact that Rhea isn't even aware of their existence nevet made me impressed with their stealth and cunning, it just proved to me their actions never mattered enough to catch her eyes. Fair enough it's all a matter of perception, but that was mine: the least threatening clowns in black I have ever seen.
Doesn't the Crimson Flower path also contain less chapters than the other paths? It does feel like the shadow war was left on the cutting room floor. It would have given that path an overall better ending too?
Great work as always, Ghast. Really enjoyed getting to go over all the lore again! Personally, I was okay with the Slithers being a bunch of cartoon villains. They always came off as a bunch of Nazi-analogues - given their racist rhetoric, genocidal ambitions, shallow appropriation of Asian iconography, questionable perception of history, and being literally-white supremacists who want to replace out the dominant culture of the continent with their own twisted ideology - so the story making them a bunch of enjoyably-punchable fascists worked for me, because Nazis are dicks and no one cares if they get punched. That being said, while I would never want redemption arcs for the leaders, I do think it’s a shame that we didn’t get - as you said - an Agarthan who rejected that supremacist nonsense and switched sides. I think a Salem-type character could have been darkly interesting, especially for Verdant Wind or something.
I completely agree with your final rant; the biggest problem was that the Slitherers was that they just felt shallow and substanceless, despite there being potential ways to circumvent this in the design process. I will disagree a little bit with your praise of their ability to plan long-term though. While yes it shows them as competent, it also makes them feel super unrealistic IMO, especially when - as you pointed out - we don't even really understand their motives for being anti-Sothis in the first place. A sympathetic Slitherer character giving us insight into their culture/beliefs could have remedied this for sure. The Church of Seiros is lead by an actual immortal dragon demigod, and yet Rhea's longterm plans don't seem to extend beyond maintaining peace and making the continent a better place, plus her attempts and reviving her mother (but we don't know how long she was attempting this for, if I recall correctly). In contrast, the Slitherers as a multigenerational group spanning a millenia are able to perfectly coordinate, without any internal dissent, a revenge plot against a dead god with potentially NO end in sight. It just defies belief. Also if their only goal was revenge on Sothis' surviving family, they could have multi-nuked Garreg Mach at any point, and then just hunted down the other survivors like Seteth, Flayn, Indech, and Macuil, because they seriously aren't THAT tough. No need to orchestrate a continent-wide war, guys. If their goal is world domination that makes them even less relatable and seem even more incompetent, partly because of stuff you mentioned (like Thales nuking Arianrhod) and partly because they're all either psycho clown murderers or evil scientists. They'll either never be accepted by society, need to wipe out all or most other people to thrive on the surface (in that case just stay in Shambhala, it has the same effect of living alone but with much less work involved), or they're just illogically driven by their innately evil natures, I guess. Since they're themed around advanced technology, they could have been motivated by a desire to spread this technology across the world to improve peoples' lives. Then Rhea could be more (consistently) villified from a certain light by being opposed to this because of the (warranted) fear that such technology will only cause conflict and the benefits don't outweigh the negatives caused by humanity's violent tendencies. This plot point already exists in a fragmented form; the reason Sothis cast the Agarthans underground is because the they "spilled too much blood," according to the book in the shadow library. So to balance this out, give the Slitherers a "national" philosophy centered around survival of the fittest - basically they care about linear advancement (of technology, civilization, the human individual, etc.) above all else. But to give the Slitherers the spotlight and characterization they need to be salvaged would be a pretty sizeable rewrite of the game. It's unfortunate that despite Three Houses' overall stellar character writing, worldbuilding, and lore, the Slitherers somehow manage to be the most unrelatable and least logical evil cult faction in this franchise, which is infamous for its one-dimensional evil cult factions.
I have a small theory about Hubert, I think he could be a Agarthan. If you think about It, we never get any explanation of why Hubert uses Dark Magic, everyone with a confirm explanation is either Agarthan or has been use as experiments by then. Agarthan Talk some Sort of extrange tone/rythym that Hubert also uses. It also would explain why he is Edelgard retainer, he was put there to supervise Edelgard but ended up falling in love with her. Or why is he so apathetic he would have been rise in a world where normal humans were seen as mere Beast. Edit: I just check VW/SS Rheas death and I realise that the Javelins don't come from Shambala, Thales summon them and they fall right from the Sky so they can't come from Shambala what means Hubert just couldn't locate Shambala using them.
Hubert isn't Agarthan. He is a member of house Vestra, which has served the imperial family for centuries. He learned dark magic essentially to become the shadow to Edelgard, by performing the acts she cannot as a figurehead. His dark magic is basically symbolic for what he's willing to do in service of her cause, sparing her the need to do such actions herself. Jeritza also uses 1 dark magic spell. It's possible he does the same as Hubert too.
@@l.n.3372 TWSITD have been in the Empire for years and could perfectly replaced the real Hubert or been a full Agarthan House by this point. And they never confirm the second thing you said, Hubert never said he suggested himself to anything and Edelgard already could use Dark Magic. What you said there is just a Theory like mine.
@@l.n.3372 House Vestra could be descendants of Agarthans. I mean, it is interesting that Hubert's canonical class is dark bishop Also he kinda looks like them too with his grayish skin and weird eyes But that doesn't mean he's secretly against Edelgard, we all know how much he likes her
@@lambtoken2708 Hubert doesn't resemble Agarthans at all. His eyes are light green and his skin is normal. Thales, Solon, and Kronya all look very, very different from Hubert, appearance wise. And as I explained before, the dark magic is not exclusive to Agarthans either. Jeritza has a single dark magic spell too, and we don't know how he got that either. I think it's just because Jeritza and Hubert like the darkness/prefer to act as agents of the dark. Whole Lysithea, Hapi, and Edelgard have dark magic as a result of the experimentations.
There is a middle ground for FE villains and they are just the Bandits who just show up whenever the writers can't write a reason why the bad guys are in "insert location here".
@@gabcard2767 and majority of them don't really get anything as they are just there to be bandits, what is all the reason the protagonists need to kill them all.
Walhart is rather silly and over the top but also has some of the more interesting battle dialog in Awakening and is suddenly recuitable. In some aspects he feels proto-edelgard.
@@wouterW24 Walhart had a very similar cause to Edelgard. Difference is, he never bullshit anybody about what he does. He knows he's not some righteous clean-handed champion, he's a mere mortal wresting control of destiny and saving the world in the way he knows best. His methods aren't exactly perfect, but I'd sooner serve him than Edelgard, just because he's more honest about his place in the conflict. Plus, he shares the potential that, in a post-war world, his conquests would lead to longterm gains as Edelgard's would, so both at least have a decent idea for a post-war world.
Something I've found curious about the Agarthans is how we never see any civilians, while Kronya (supposedly the lowest in rank) is killed by one of her own in the name of the cause. For all they talk about how superior they are to the rest of life on Fodlan, how much or how little do they really value the lives of their fellows?
There's a quote that goes something like "The measure of a civilization is how it treats its weakest members", and when you try to compare this to the Argarthians they seem pretty cruel.
Yeah, I feel this is sort of the point about them. As magical Nazis, they really only value each other in that they all are of the master race, and not really for any other reason. Everyone is but an expendable cog for Agartha.
The Agarthans as a whole are the very definition of the phrase "more than meets the eye". Their cartoonishly evil actions are but the first layer of one surprisingly huge yet legit intringuing (imo) iceberg.
In Early times the Argatneans were smart until modern times where they antagonizing edelgard without any backup plan... honestly they should of just kept her mother alive and as a Hostage
@@elpopman2055 I mean, judging how they still had Javelins of Light to destroy Shambala in VW and SS after nuking Merceus, they probably could have done the same to Edelgard and the Black Eagle Strike Force after Seiros was defeated in Fhirdiad. And then "Lord Arundel" takes control of the empire and the now reunified Fodlan, with the Nabateans and the Church of Seiros destroyed
I've heard people say that Monica should have been a student of yours from the beginning, and that after she's taken with Flayn, her personality changes, but she's still a playable unit, until the moment she reveals herself as Kronya. I'm actually ok with how it goes in game (that's really sad 😭) but I do think that would have been a really interesting way to go about it. And it would fix the problem you talk about at the end!
That would have been super cool. And made more sense in-universe than the explanation we got of her going missing a year ago, then nobody questions the circumstance or asks her anything about it when she's still 100% fine when found in Death Knight's dungeon.
That is interesting. Alternatively, they could scrap Monica and have Kronya impersonate Flayn. Though unless you rewrite a lot more, you then have to find some excuse to find the real Flayn later. Maybe in those ruins where they were turning students into monsters, they were still tapping her blood for further experiments.
Given how Age of Calamity gave us more interactions with the Yiga Clan and even had them defect to our side in the story, I can see the devs for 3 Hopes trying something similar with the Agarthans. I doubt they will do a full face turn since THEY ARE the main enemy in Fodlan but perhaps we might get a new Agarthan character that gives us a more median perspective of their kind beyond just being evil and arrogant. Who knows, perhaps the new character they showed Byleth fighting will be such an Agarthan that will take on a more Camus or Mustafa-esque role for their faction.
If they were to do one for any of them it’d be Kronya. Since time travel Is involved I could see them justifying it through her knowing that they’re going to betray and sacrifice her. She killed half a dozen people, but if the time travel goes back further than that event, then I could see them managing to redeem her more than if it was after she killed jeralt, though hopefully with everyone still remembering her do it the first time. I think it could actually be really interesting if done well
It'll be good for sure. On the other hand, they already have entire 3H cast to do something with. Which they may not even add, coz of they little importance tbh. Still, agartan ally will be very good!
Personally, I like portraying Odesses, (the Agarthan leader during VW’s final battle), as a guy who is frustrated and disgusted by Thales’ actions and experiments, but only follows along out of concern for his fellow Agarthans. Though that’s just headcannon/fan fiction based on they guy’s two lines of dialogue.
@@Quaelandys I believe an argument could be made by that line being more along the lines of “Curse you Thales”. At least that’s my interpretation of the line.
I personally don't headcanon this. I think that he's just concerned about committing too much of their already depleted manpower to this final battle, though I do agree that he sounds like a tired old man.
I recall my first time playing AM and being really confused about the slitherers falling off the face of the planet after being set up as major villains before the time skip. The whole time, I was expecting Thales to return, little knowing I had already killed him! Then, in the final map, I wondered why some random evil mage showed up instead of the leader of the slitherers! Not to mention, it's the only route where they aren't explicitly killed off, so who knows what they might do in the future
Same. It only dawned upon me after having played GD route that we just flattened pretty much every notable member of the slitterers without ever knowing about it. I also wondered why AM-route did not have one of the javelins (nukes) raining on any city until i replayed the route and realised Dimitri just runs over their leader in claudes map.
I think it's because AM wrote themselves into a corner with TWSiTD in that they're the ones responsible for the tragedy of Duscur, so revealing them in Dimitri's route diminishes his arc with Edelgard, but they also had to get rid of the super villains with missiles so they just sloppily inserted Thales in to be killed.
They survive in all routes. Do you really trust the ending text for Crimson Flower, which left the cult in the best position by neutering the rest of the continent and Byleth?
Despite being the main string pullers lore-wise, I feel like development-wise the Slitherers were added kinda late. It explains their lack of characters, the illogical choices, and the inconsistent plot participation. It is like IS took all of the potentially complicating lore elements like the Tragedy of Duscar, the child experiments, and the relics and slapped the Slitherers on them to make them the cut-and-dry villains. Maybe the initially intended for there to be a golden route? Because those three aforementioned lore elements would have been more interesting if perpetrated or at least instigated by the three main factions themselves.
I kinda late to the party, but still want to say that i think you are right here. I feel like Edel should be a main antagonist, because adding Slithers messed her story the most. Not only she lost a major chunk of her agency, given how worst of her atrocities now attributed to them, her routes became an absolute mess in terms of her motives. She wants to dismantle tyrannical Rhea, but Hubert is going to build a society in which she will rule with an iron fist in his A support with Byleth. She wants to get rid of corruption in church but she installs count Varley, probably the most corrupt person alive in the Empire, as a new head of church. Rhea is her main enemy, and still war going on 5 years after Rhea's imprisonment. Not talking about how her route is mostly about helping the real antagonists of the story. It's like somebody would create a game about WW2 with only playable factions is Allies, Soviets and Italy
my own personal belief is a bit of a massive reach but here's my theory on the Slithers: My theory is that the first conflict between the Nabataens and Agarthans was also an Agarthan civil war. It's extraordinarily unlikely that an entire race of people would see attempted genocide, even as retaliation in-kind, as an acceptable resolution to their conflict. As such, those Agarthans who dissentted may very well have sided with the Nabataens. We notably only know of 2 explicitly named races of sentient humanoids in Fodlan: Nabataens and Agarthans and surface dwelling people are categorized based on nationality, i.e. Adrestian, Duscur, etc. The reason then, why we don't see any "good" Agarthans, is that all the characters we know of as "Agarthans" are explicitly those driven underground festering in their hatred for generations and warped physically after centuries underground, with any surface-dwelling Agarthans having long since discarded their former name for their race and simply going as "humans"
I don’t care if they’re “comically evil”; TWSITD’s history, mysteriousness, and competent manipulation of the continent over at least a thousand years makes them excellent villains imo. They don’t feel generically evil; they’re doing all this because they have a devout belief that they’re saving their world from the “beasts” that sent them underground. It’s a great representation of human hubris and arrogance dooming their entire civilization. Edit: Also, them being mere humans behind all that technology makes them more relatable in that we can put ourselves in their shoes and see things from their perspective. There’s no evil god or dragon to fell in this game, just endless wars on a continent long past its prime.
They SHOULD be all of those things that you mentioned. But because they're not handled very well, and because of their cliche evil actions, they end up as more generic instead. For example, their actions in torturing, experimenting on, and killing children. And using children as test subjects for crest transfusion and crest stone transformation. There's absolutely no justification beyond generic evil acts.
TWSITD are so competent and amazing that they are completely and utterly defeated in one map. Sometimes not even that, in AM Hapi just kills them all offscreen. What amazing villains.
@@vanjagalovic3621 Not true actually. Pretty sure in Claude's ending with someone, it mentioned minor Agarthan battles in the future. And they never defeated Cornelia in VW/SS.
@@l.n.3372 It's mentioned that somehow the remaining empire and agarathan soldiers teamed up and were somehow going to kill Byleth until Claude came back and just easely wiped them out. It's a pretty silly ending that doesn't make a lot of sense.
Dmitri's survival isn't a big deal imo. Assassination attempts are always horribly messy affairs. Look no further than the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand for an example here. It's very possible that Dmitri had run away from the main caravan to look at a bird or something, saw his father get beheaded from several hundred feet away, and then got saved by Gilbert. Or perhaps they killed someone else who was wrongly identified as Dmitri.
It's not the fact that Dimitri survived an assassination attempt, it's the fact that he's clearly stated to be the ONLY survivor of the massacre. All of the other royalty/nobility, all of the knights and other soldiers were slaughtered. But somehow the child Dimitri not only lived, but witnessed his fathers' execution during the event (so he wasn't just absent or hidden away in a secret compartment or something). It makes the group which carried out the massacre remarkably incompetent, because they clearly won the battle and killed 99% of their targets - so what was their excuse for not checking that everyone was dead and then finishing Dimitri off?
@@LoudWaffle then he moved on to think a child his age had all alone planned and orchestrated it. Truly the King of Delusion, in a time like theirs his ending at Edelgards end truly is a kinder fate for all of Fodlan.
@LoudWaffle Who knows, perhaps he hid in the piles of corpses and waited until they left to inspect the carnage, now that would be pretty gruesome but survivable, assuming they didn't burn the bodies, he could've still seen his father's execution in the corpse pile and be disturbed if there was ever an anime of other media that would expand more upon this, I do hope they fix this, it would've been a pretty disturbing scenario he had to endure, but whatever the case, it all came down to one thing, he was just extremely goddamn lucky and I've seen cases in real life where people do get lucky, stupid levels in fact.
Personally, The Agarthans are basically the Thabians if Duma hadn't destroyed the city. Everything about the story about Agartha and the rise and fall of Those Who Slither in the Dark sound a lot like the story of Thabes and its people. Both were founded in a collaboration between humans and dragons and both are stated to be advanced civilizations because of it. The difference is that Duma, fearing humanity's amassing power, led an army of Divine Dragons and destroyed the city for 3 days, and the survivors that fled would go on to spread the story about the city being brought down by their own hubris. Meanwhile, Sothis only got involved with the Agarthans once they declared war on her and the Nabateans. It's ironic in a way that Duma, whose actions are portrayed as bad, ended up ensuring something like TWSITD would never happen (the closest we get are the Grimleal but they worship a god rather than seek to kill beings like Naga and Grima). Sothis, on the other hand, is portrayed as good yet her actions in not only not stopping the Agarthas till it was too late but also not making sure they were all dead, resulted in the eventual story of Three Houses.
You know this video gave me a better appreceation for TWSITD. I previously hated them and wished they didn't exist. They were still missused but they seem cooler now, At least in the past before the start of the game.
44:12 I think that Cornelia dies in Silver Snow and Verdant Wind anyways, except that we don't see her as Cornelia. I think that Bias, the Gremory that controls the Titanus robots in Shambhala, is the real identity of "Cornelia". So, in the routes where you raid Shambhala, you also end up killing Bias/"Cornelia" during gameplay, just without a dedicated cutscene.
I think regard Thales’ use of the javelins you have to keep in mind the fact they view all surface humans as essentially beasts. While Thales acts polite to Edelgard as flame emperor a lot of the time, he sees her almost certainly like an unruly dog. Useful, but needing to be put in her place with force. He and his fellow Agarthans probably can’t even imagine the idea of these surface humans being anywhere near competent enough to actually threaten them except for Byleth, thanks to the Sothis thing. Hence, Edelgard murdering Cordelia is, in his mind, like when a pet misbehaves, and needs to be taught a lesson by it’s owner. Ignoring that, I think it would be cool to learn what exactly set off the conflict between the Agarthans and Nabaeateans
While the Slitherers make good villain's in that love-to-hate sort of way, I think their addition was a mistake as it muddies the game's themes. In a story about three people doing what they think is right, each making sketchy decisions (the degree of which has been argued many times before), having a secret organization actually responsible for everything just feels like a copout. It gives Rhea/the church a better excuse to behave the way they do because their opposition is so much worse than them, and in a game begging you to question what a society with crests would look like, the Slitherers distract from the point by being behind some of the most sinister aspects of the world.
Exactly! In a story that all about moral ambiguity, placing an objectively evil group pulling all the strings of history (while a cool concept) completely defeats the point of moral ambiguity. This is one of the reasons my playthrough of the Black Eagles route was soured, because this whole time we are fighting the church I kept thinking "Is this *really* who we should be focused on?"
You're forgetting that it was humans who also collaborated with TWSITD, ranging from quest experiments to aiding rebellions. Loog could've remained loyal to the empire, but he was swayed by the promise of power. There's a text in the game that mentions when that when Pan, Loog's tactician, was Among Us'ed, people who knew him claimed his behaviour changed. The Argathans are bad, but they couldn't do it on their own.
I actually feel that them being more of the objectively evil ones in the plot is perfectly fine and fitting. They clearly have outlined motivations and reasons for their actions that are at least somewhat understandable, but they simply aren't people that are acting morally or more altruistically like the 4 main factions. They're ultimately the most resentful and bitter of them all and it shows. Also, the agarthans being more objectively evil than any of the factions by far adds to the story relating to the other houses, as it makes you question the legitimacy of edelgard and the empire if they are willing to work with the agarthans. It also makes the feuds caused by the agarthans and the misplaced blame and rage more tragic as well as more compellingly frustrating, such as with dimitri and rhea blaming everything on edelgard as well as edelgard being misinformed about fodlan's history, falling into the same trap of hubris as the agarthans and that she claims rhea falls into. It's fine to me to have more objectively unjustified characters because they still make sense, the only real issue I have with them is that their society and presence in the world can seem rather unfitting. If they didn't exist, the confusion and diluted information as well as mass manipulations of the world wouldn't exist as compellingly or meaningfully imo so I cherish their place in the game
Thales is trurly dissapointing in the game. I find weird how this group manage to replace many famous figures without people noticing but were too lazy to look for Byleth's body in the cliff.
To be speculative I don’t think Sothis was oppressive generally speaking she’s shown to be good natured and her surviving descendants could be proof of that, the ones that we’ve seen anyway, two of the saints became hermits but are not bad people, they all have every reason to despise humanity and even if some view humans with some cynicism they’re not going around taking it out on them, Rhea seems to be the special case but in context the borderline insanity and desperation is not exactly unrealistic, and despite her many faults, she is still redeemable. So again to be speculative I assume the thing that caused the agarthans to instigate a war on that scale was something more primal, as stated within the game Nabateans had multiple settlements so the agarthans might’ve felt anxiety and fear over their people eventually becoming a minority, making Sothis and her people the objectively dominant group so they started a war in hopes of snuffing out the Nabatean flame before it becomes an inferno, and the whole thing could’ve been fanned even further by the agarthan’s religious sect that saw Sothis as a false deity and a usurper of their own god/gods. So honestly I very much agree that they should’ve shown a genuine exception to the rule in regards to agarthans, preferably in the form of a recruitable unit, as it is now we’ve seen little to no evidence that the agarthan survivors are anything but arrogant, sociopathic megalomaniacs that continue to be the main force behind the suffering of Fodlan’s people. I want to be optimistic about the spin-off’s story fleshing out the world of three houses more but then I’m reminded of age of calamity so I’d temper my expectations.
Speculation can turn anything on it's head. Sirius is the star associated to Sothis and probably the Nabatean race as a whole. Seiros is just the ancient Greek name of Sirius. It is also the star that signifies the rise of heat, the arrival of "dog days" in where dogs begin to pant harder and appear more crazy, and to Chinese astronomy, the symbol of invasion and plunder. Sothis could have just as well been like Julius Ceasar a conquerer and god of his own time. There were plenty of Roman opposition to his actions and yet in the end he was still made a god to the Romans by the surviving Cesarian faction. We clearly cannot trust the words of Rhea or Seteth because of how they view anyone who opposes the Church of Seiros. They call them heretics fit only for death. The other saints do not talk about this, they choose to hide away so we cannot infer their current thoughts about the church and the direction it went. Flayn has been alone in Zanado for the majority of her life and can be gaslighted by Seteth and Seiros into believing whatever they taught. Flayn is never questioned on her faith in the church. We don't know what she thinks about the church and the direction it went. There's a reason why the Agarthans rose up against Sothis and we will never know, but speculation doesn't clear up the situation, it only reinforces what you want to believe.
“Um you’re just speculating.” Uh yeah? That’s what I said…twice, and to be fair so are you. There is not enough info for us to get a clear picture so we just throw some in game and real world knowledge together to try and make sense of it all but here’s what I have to say about your speculation. 1. Seiros is rhea’s false persona, just a means to an end for a woman driven mad with grief and trauma, seiros also can mean “destructive” in Greek yeah? So it’s a perfect false name for Rhea since she was heII bent on revenge during the war of heroes, and it should be mentioned again, mentally speaking she is VERY unwell, so it isn’t exactly justified to use this one crazy Nabatean to judge Sothis and the rest of her people. 2. In comparison generally speaking Seteth is a very wise, kind and open minded individual if you’ve seen his supports, the only extreme thing about him is his obsession with Flayn’s safety, which is probably why he goes along with Rhea’s church, it’s the best option he has when it comes to protecting his daughter while easily providing for her. 3. Flayn was both born and raised in Enabarr not Zanado as far as we know, and according to the game she was also asleep for a long time due to her war time wounds, Flayn is not questioned because why would she be, Rhea most likely established the church to both have enough authority so she can use any means necessary to bring her mother back while protecting the remaining Nabateans.
@Sloff This is gonna be a long one. Flayn was raised in Enbarr as a child but hid in Zanado with Seteth after the war of heroes until he left for Garreg Mach. My point on Flayn is that she's too naive to be able to accurately gauge the Church of Seiros' actions throughout history since she never took part of it. While Seteth and even Rhea are good people when they want to be, the same can be said for most despotic tyrants in history. You can't gauge Seteth through his interactions with students and Byleth alone. The true gauge of Seteth's actions are when he's exercising power as a church authority and he has condemned people to death time and again throughout the game. Who's to say how many times he's killed for the church's sake throughout his time in Garreg Mach. He intentionally destroyed opposition of the church. You can argue that it was for the protection of Flayn, but it's still active suppression of other ideas and people. Seteth is wise but not benevolent in the slightest. As for Seiros, you can infer that Rhea may have modeled herself after Sothis by donning a similar name. Solon calls Byleth the fell star after the TWSITD figure out she's Sothis incarnate. The narrations of the months mention the rise of the blue sea star as the months become warmer. They also mention that the people of Fodlan believe that it's the goddess' home. Sothis is tied to the star Sirius, giving us hints that while she represented fertility and life giving warmth, everything good associated with summer in ancient times. But she is also tied to the bad in summer too, plague, disease, war. Seiros taking another form of her mother's name and raising an army to destroy the last of Agartha can reinforce the idea that Sothis was a conquerer that used might where words failed. "Sirius is not gone, and you will know this, humans." It's clear that the Agarthans feared Sothis, it just sucks that we don't know whether it's before or after the annihilation of Nabatean settlements. But you can't isolate Rhea as the lone manic actor of Nabatea after losing her people and mother if it's hinted in both ingame and real life lore that Sothis is the bringer of destruction as well as warmth. Another interesting point is Sothis stopping at just Fodlan. If she had the power of a god why did she not take Sreng or Duscar. Maybe in Three Hopes we'll find out but it's possible that Sothis tried this and failed like the Romans in Germania. That's why Seiros forbade contact with the outside world. Or maybe Sothis' power was not enough to reach beyond Fodlan because even she's not all powerful. Who knows. It is, however, really hard to pull away from the idea that Sothis used force when necessary if you have a even a middling background in history. Plenty of good people do horrible things in service to their ideals. Maybe that's why Macuil chose to remain impartial to the world after the war of heroes. All of this is speculation so yeah intsys could come in at any time and confirm Sothis is top cinnamon roll but they left it vague specifically to let us connect the dots. And like connecting the dots of Sirius and it's companions to make the constellation of Canis major, we can see what we want in the stars and make our own conclusions. Just remember this, the history of rulers is always filled with hatred, death, and conquest. Being a god doesn't change that.
@@kirbyslayer20 Imagine hating Rhea so much that you *actually* take the words of the Agarthans, a.k.a. the one and only faction directly shown *and* stated to be straight up evil, at face value. No. Just no. There is absolutely *no* evidence beyond the the tangential and one's own headcanon to suggest the Nabateans were anything but peaceful co-existors.
I honestly find the Begnion senator to be the most comically evil villains. They frequently choose to be evil when they would be better served by doing something good (or decent...or just not evil.) As evil as is was to murder the laguz messenger, it was equally stupid.
@@PublicNMEno1 Tellius has the senate which is incredibly comically evil (except that bald dude who saved Rafiel) and also one of the most sympathetic villains that wants to destroy the world, Lehran.
@@alexmartin6561 I barely count Oliver just because I have a hard time taking him seriously as a character. You are correct in that I completely overlooked Lehran, though.
I wouldn't say Dimitri's survival is that weird, even if it wasn't intentional on the slitherers' part. As we've mentioned, their hubris is a common point of downfall for them, they probably thought "well, he's just a kid, we can leave him for last" and by the time they got to him either his crest awakened and he put up enough of a fight or Gilbert and reinforcements were already arriving on the scene, with the weakened Agarthans running out of time. Heck, maybe they dealt him a fatal blow and never expected him to survive, but Gilbert was there faster than any armor knight adjacent should be arriving anywhere. As for why let him live afterwards, well, they couldn't really make too big a move too quick lest they attract attention to themselves, plus whoever was still loyal to the previous king I think would do whatever they could to ensure the survival of the crown prince, so actually getting a chance at Dimitri would have been tough. It's not the strongest point narratively, by a long shot, but it's not really anything weak or stupid, I'd say it's just there
I'd have liked to see some route changes so that we could actually seen TWSITD as final villains on two routes. 1. What we got in SS should've instead been the canon ending of Cindered Shadows, so that all the house leaders and Rhea fail without Byleth. 2. SS should've had Cornelia poisoning Dimitri's mind throughout. Then he could survive or be revived after Talitean, and been a puppet king final boss of the route, with TWSITD rallying behind Cornelia after the fall of the empire. 3. CF could've had Edelgard work more with Alliance defectors led by Count Gloucester, instead of TWSITD. Then end after defeating Rhea with an actual ending against TWSITD.
I think a twsitd ending in cf probably would've just ended up being going to the vw/ss Agatha map a third time, but with edelgard this time, so while I think itd be good to wrap up twsitd, I'm not sure I want it to be in CF if that's how it would go
@@skyblade57 not to mention Byleth would lack the Divine Pulse + sword of the creator powers after defeating Rhea. So that could be an issue for game play (maybe it'd work as a secret level since you have to "unlock" cf unlike the other 3 routes?) It's a weird bind; can't defeat twsitd first for their power as allies, Edel and Hubert didn't know where their base was until the javelins of light were used in cf, and a 2 front war (vs the church and twsitd) is not a great idea vs using one as an ally to defeat the other first. I wish we had more in cf, but I feel Byleth regaining their humanity is a strong story beat to end on (the good ol defeat a god/ dragon).
Nemesis has to be by far my favorite final boss in a Fire Emblem game , he's just a generic Bandit leader just like the ones you fight at the start of every fire emblem game but he was given almost uncontestable power and the backing by an extremely powerful faction to essentially just wreak as much havoc as possible and did just that. There is no argument from him about his intentions he was hired to murder Sothis and did it, he was tasked to lead an army and commit genocide and did it, and when he was revived and kept in stasis for a thousand years his only desire was to take his undead army with him and kick the ass of the woman who killed him. In a game with dragons and mole people with magic ICBMs its really refreshing that the most influential character in the entire setting was just a really angry dude with a whip-sword.
I disagree on the note that the Javelins of light in Crimson flower were a mistake. Edelgarde is not afraid of Demonic beasts, and so they would not make her feel helpless. Demonic beasts can be spotted by scouts and information networks they are a threat you can fight. The Javelin of light being fired was supposed to demonstrate to Edelgarde that she couldn't fight the Agarthians lest they destroy any cities she controlled. On top of that though you have the fact that most demonic beasts at the time were likely committed to the war effort. Pulling assets in use out to try and intimidate Edelgarde would have set them back much farther than a single javelin of light.
I definitely agree with the missed opportunity of not including an Agarthan you could recruit. I initially thought one of the dlc characters would fill that void, especially since some of the main support conversations stress the whole "you can't paint everyone with the same brush" involving Duscur, and having an Agarthan that does not share the views of TwSitD would have expanded on that, instead of doubling down on "nah, the mole people are all unrepentant evil monsters! They don't count."
Personally, I don't mind the Agarthans being objectively evil. We already have the sympathetic, morally grey antagonist with Edelgard (or Rhea, depending on which way you go). Not every villain needs to have some tragic backstory or even a valid argument. I guess if you wanted to add some nuance, there could be a way to kill off Thales and Cornelia right before or after the time skip and frame the war as their deaths being too late to stop the events they set in motion, highlighting their status as underlining cause for trouble and how even in death, they still cause misery to Fodlan.
Maybe the real reason Thales nuked Arianrhod was so that Empire didn't reverse-engineer their tech. Since we know at the very least Cornelia had Titanus there.
Solon: Underrated. Pretty good villain. I personally wish we could have snuck in one more fight with him in the story. Maybe during the monster chapter. Thales: Lame. Don't find him interesting or entertaining. I've seen more than one blind playthrough confuse him with Solon which says alot about his memorability lol. Kronya: Wasted potentinal. Didn't get enough screen time. Cornelia: Traded in an interesting or entertaining personality for a bigger chest. Feels like devs realized they wasted their first female Agarthan so they added another one. I also hate that we never see her Agarthan/True form.
About recruiting one of the slitherers, I think Kronya would've had the prefect chance in chapter 10. After being swallowed by the spell of Zahras, Byleth finds Kronya there as well, and you are given the choice to leave her there or to save and recruit her. I think she would've been willing to cooperate with us, as Solon, who she thought was her ally, just used her as a mere sacrifice for the spell moments before.
Very easy edit to make Kronya not an evil clown girl too, when she kills Jeralt she could say something along the lines of, "Sorry old man, but orders are orders." Then no haha im evil >:) lines in the forest of death chapter and boom recruitable Kronya(with potential S support? 👀)
They all could have been better: Kronya having an inferiority superiority complex as shown in Heroes was cool and can be actually befriended and redeemed (surprising, but true). Solon being capable to get rid of his racism while making researchs with others and befriend them was cool and could have appear more. Cornelia doesn't have enough screen time and she should have appear more. She was the creepiest villainess ! Thales well....is the big bad ! He should be far more present. I like Edelgard, Rhea, Catherine, Hubert and Jeritza but I feel they almost have all the screentime and Thales as 0. Myson faces the heroes thrice after a dlc upgrade in all routes but one. Yet he has a generic model and personnality ! This is despite the fact that he's the member of the organisation who has the highest amount of boss battles ! Nemesis isn't part of the group properly but is heavily affiliated with them and also suffers from a lack of screentime and characterization. We only see him thrice in Verdant Wind and once in the other routes. In other words....THEY SHOULD APPEAR MORE OFTEN IN THE GAME!!!!!!
After Three Hopes, I can't help but feel that while Thales was the leader, Solon and Cordelia were the real brains of TWSITD. Especially since Anaximandros in particular complains that all Thales is good for is barking orders.
I find the Agarthans interesting because they are Fire Emblem's most accurate portrayal of Nazis and other fascist groups, and if you view them as a death/magitech cult that barely understands how its own tech works and is so lost in its own propaganda, then their actions make more sense. EDIT: About Thales and his interception of Byleth's strike, I always viewed it not as him negating DP, but rather him having a ripple-effect proof memory and being aware that Byleth was going to try and intercept Monica this time.
kronyas confession in FEH supports this, implying that she is, at least partially, a product of agarthan culture. i already got her to 5* lvl 40, so looking up the speech was easy. here it is: "Just the sight of your face makes me so angry! Can I kill you now, just to get it over with? Please? Gah! Why not? It would be easy. You're such a weak creature that I'd hardly have to lift a finger. Fighting alongside you, sharing our victories and defeats... I'm beginning to feel attached to you. I don't know why. I'm an Agarthan, and you're just a pathetic little worm. It's unthinkable. It's repulsive! But that's how I feel. So if you won't let me kill you, you'll have to agree to be my plaything. Forever. All right?" so... still an unrepentant psycho, but there are hints that she grew up in a sort of "master race" environment, where they believe only they deserve any rights. kronya hates the fact that she begins to develop feelings towards a so-called inferior person, and seems conflicted
Something i have to point out: you forgot to mention their actions in the leicester alliance, since it's heavily implied that they are the ones who forged the document that divided the kingdom, which resulted in the creation of it and their aid in the assassination of claude's uncle with house gloucester
I think at this point, I'm sick of FE going, "Surprise! There were real bad guys manipulating things behind the scenes and if that never happened, everyone would be friends!" Like they can't just tell the story of actual war where there isn't really a real bad guy. Nope, a bunch of the games are just, "No one ever fights each other in these worlds unless a mastermind makes them!" I'm just tired of every game doing it. Fates did it, Shadows of Valentina did it, I'm pretty sure the first game in the west did it. Hell, the game that revived the series, Awakening did it. Can they just not tell grounded stories?
To be fair, this is a stable of almost every Fire Emblem game with the most popular ones having always used that trope. From Gharnef to Manfroy, to Nergal to Formortis, up to Lehran and now to Thales. Getting rid of that archetype is very hard and only one Fire Emblem game has it and it is not quite the most popular game;FE Binding Blade.
@@basilofgoodwishes4138 But you can't really tell the same story every game without it getting stale. A twist isn't a twist if you expect it because they've done it 12 times before. And on a personal note, it makes me unable to take any of the stories seriously. It's a really childish view of war where no one would ever have a reason to fight so some manipulator has to show up, sometimes out of literally nowhere, and give the story reason. It's makes the story very ungrounded, and hard to relate to. Tough times causing hardship that force former friends or countrymen to go to war with each other in order to protect what they each hold most dear? Relatable. Dragons, or cyberpunk wizards, turning people evil and making war happen because plot? Puts me to sleep.
I’ve always assumed that Dimitri survived Duscar because Glenn kept him safe until Gilbert arrived. After that, Thales who wasn’t in the kingdom anymore, couldn’t assassinate Dimitri without revealing Duscar wasn’t a rebellion. Plus, Dimitri’s death would have made Rufus king, possibly causing him to pull his act together and make Faeghast a more stable empire and a larger threat to the slithers.
I like the Agarthans because, like you showed, they do have unique and interesting lore about who they are and why they exist. However, I don't like them overall because, just like Fates, they're an easy way out: Another exclusively chaotic evil faction pulling all the strings, when the writers could have used that time to develop the stories of all four routes further.
yeah having a secret "true villain" behind the scenes cheapens alot of character interaction and motivations. Why bother writing a morally Gray story if you're just gonna cop out at the last second and go "jk lol actually these evil wizard guys did it". Dumb as hell. 😂
@@kaffka9221 Both ways. You could remove the Slitherers and Azure Moon and Crimson Flower stay mostly the same, but if TWSITD is important to the story, then give them more screen time and drop more hints that something's wrong and things aren't as they appear. Hell, it would have helped significantly if the Shamballa Arc was extended, similar to Mystery and Radiant Dawn, where you take 4-5 chapters to approach and descend into their lair; something to build up that part of the world and not make it seem like their lair was literally next door under a manhole cover.
@@n00bplayer72 I don't mind either ways and I feel that TWSITD doesn't have to be morally grey to make themselves work. I personally don't think chaotic evil antagonists are a terrible concept by any means; many villains outside of FE are a perfect examples like Keffka or Yuuki Terumi. Yet I too agree that the Slitherers require more presence and success to make themselves relevant and not forgetful. Then again, they are called TWSITD, not "Those Who Waltz in the Streets."
I'm not a massive fan of TWSITD, but at the same time - do they really use them as an easy out? The war still happens through understandable reasons based on the beliefs of the Lords, and there's no Golden Route where they take the easy way out and just have everyone unite against the big bad TWISTD a la Fates Revelation (admittedly Three Hopes might wind up as that, but I really hope it doesn't). The only thing TWISTD really does to set stuff in motion is carry out Crest experiments on Edelgard (which is the spark that triggers her hatred of Crests and the nobility), but I think that's a pretty acceptable use of them, since Edelgard's actions and beliefs after that point are still presented as her own responsibility.
I don't think that the Agarthans are cartoonishly evil. They just needed some more explanation narrative wise because otherwise you have to go around reading books and shit in game in order to find out enough information to paint the picture
Suggestion: it would help a lot if, when introducing characters into the detailed explanations, you put a picture of the character up with their name written onscreen. I know that I had a lot of trouble keeping all the players separate. Just the name written down in correlation with the face would help a lot in recalling the events.
There are some TWSITD enemies in the final Throne Room Map on the Verdant Wind path that have names, and I've always wondered why they were given names and what the purpose of that is. Thanks for making this one!
While TWSITD works better than everything to do with Valla, I'm still sick of FE games having the bad guys be a secret and entirely different group of people than who you've been fighting the whole game. I think this mostly hurts Verdant wind, since you basically fight for the Church and not really for establishing the Alliance/Almyra as the preeminent power, that's more a consequence of the Kingdom and Empire leaving a power vacuum at the end. Feels like only Silver Snow should have had you actively fight TWSITD
Personally I don't think that the Agarthans being comically evil is necessarily a bad thing. They essentially lost everything, were forced underground bound to never see light again, it makes sense to me that they would feel nothing but hatred towards the church (since it is run by Nabateans) and use the humans as pawns and regard them as lesser beings (highlighting their hubris mentioned in the lore). My problem is that, as said in the video, some of their action don't make sense, maybe are caused by their hubris since they think they are the most powerful faction, but they could've been handled better; they are also criminally underutilized despite being one, if not the most, important faction in the game. The lack of supports/chapters/paralogues/whatever doesn't do them justice and this causes the player to not be intrigued by them and regard them as cartoonishly villans which, for a game that puts an emphasis in revealing what lies behind appereances, a big letdown. I really hope that 3 hopes will handle them better and explore Fodlan's history and secrets even more.
I feel like TWSITD are kinda brain dead. For example, Edelgard as the FE tells Thales that TWSITD "have no place" in the world she wishes to create and Thales just shrugs it off. And in the Crimson Flower ending, Edelgard and company destroy them. They had no contingency plan for Edelgard turning on them.
Yeah they held a massive idiot ball.. they are responsible for killing her siblings and mother and they ruined her kingdom as well.. you think it'll Edelgard would be more focused in wipong then out instead of about caring about Conquest.. just imagine edelgard ratted them and revealed their existence the Church of seiros.🤣🤣🤣🤣 it would be a worldwide of massive manhunt to wipe out the Argathneans
It's a shame that the first Argathan who reveals themselves is the only one who was putting in the effort of maintaining their cover, not just shapeshifting and calling it a day.
I wished we had more interesting key Agarthan players in 3 houses. Solon villain-wise was the best one and most interesting, Cornelia being second, Thales would be 3rd being a hit or miss (depending on the route) and finally Kronya being the weakest/least interesting Agarthan. I really would've loved to see an Agarthan character as a Bow Knight wielding a regalia bow that's sorta similar like the Oliphantier class from Echoes. However, this one was responsible for the death of Duke Oswald's heir, or having an active role during the massacre in Duscur.
Cornelia was quite a good minor antagonist considering she only really got 1 chapter of screen time, only missed opportunity was not showing us what her agarthan appearance was (aka cleobulus)
Great video! Another theory I'd love to see is who the hell is the teacher who Byleth replaces at the beginning because I felt like that was never addressed again in the game.
That would be a cool vid! (Hopefully he sees yout comment) My headcanon is that it was Acheron. He's the only character portrayed to have that degree of cowardice (of abandoning his students in what's essentially a diagnostic test because some bandit attacked)
Because it was never meant to be addressed. It was a one and done thing from the start, the only people who care are Edelgard stans who subscribe to the "replace the teacher" theory to try and whitewash their precious Edelgard's actions. The ones who pretend their waifu can do no wrong and totes didn't actually try to have Dimitri and Claude assassinated, only to nearly get killed herself because the bandits didn't know she was actually their employer.
@@azatheeverchosen7615 idk if the replace the teacher theory makes her not a flawed character, its just a more interesting morally gray thing than "one of the house leaders is just evil and does evil dumb things constantly lol"
@@user_.b The assassination theory was never "evil dumb things for the sake of evulz hurr hurr" tho. It *WAS* morally grey. If you really wanna get into this, simply scaring off a teacher isn't morally grey at all since if true his life was never in danger.
There's an Overly Sarcastic Productions Trope Talk video about "pure evil," and how it gets a bad rap for being shallow, or (snrk) unrealistic, even though it has legitimate narrative uses. Even though it is indeed uncharacteristic of Fire Emblem games to employ the trope of antagonists (tertiary though they are) with zero redeeming qualities whatsoever, if anything all that does is make it a refreshing change of pace from the norm! All told, I have to agree with your conclusion that, while not perfect, this rare shot at it was indeed executed quite well.
Problem is that Fire Emblem always had these type of villians, from Gharnef,Medeus, Manfroy, Loptyr, Narcian, Sonya, Nergal,Ashnard, Petrine, Jarold, Lekain, Gangrel, Robin's father, that violent dude from Fates, Iago and Anankos.
Regarding Dimitri's survival in the Tragedy of Duscar, yeah, it's 100% possible that he just survived by accident. I totally see that the plausible explanation. But isn't an alternative explanation that Patrica didn't want her step-son to die and ordered his survival? I find it very hard to believe that Patricia truly did plan to kill her husband but what I find even harder to believe is that she would let Dimitri die. In fact, I even go as far as to say that it's impossible she would orchestrate Dimitri's death. And again, this is all just an alternative explanation. Dimitri's survival could have just been a random accident and even then I'm not connived that the real Patrica tried to kill the King. She could have totally be repealed by those who Slither in the Dark or Cornelia might have just lied about all of it. She told Dimitri this "true story" in the same speech where she said Patrica never loved Dimitri which is categorically false so it's hard accept anything she says as true when she verifiably lies in the same conversation.
The Agarthans, in my opinion, simply weren't a necessary addition to this game. They were completely unnecessary and were only added to make a more cliche villain/antagonist group to balance out the morally grey of both Edelgard and Rhea. Without the Agarthans, then Edelgard and Rhea could have been allowed to serve as antagonists on opposite routes (with Edelgard as the villain for 3 routes, and Rhea as the villain for CF alone). But because the Agarthans exist, both Edelgard and Rhea get an unfortunate moral pass, so to speak. They are made as less bad simply because the Agarthans are far worse, and the Agarthans are the main cause of almost everything bad in 3H. They have a hand in almost everything, and that's not the best way to tell a story when you have morally grey characters like Edelgard and Rhea already. Rhea's entire tragic past is because of the Agarthans and Nemesis (plus the 10 elites). Their existence gives Rhea the impetus to act, which unfortunately leads to her subjugation of humanity to prevent future war and bloodshed. Similarly, Edelgard also has a tragic past which is the fault of the Agarthans and their experimentation upon her and her family. The Agarthans fueled the fire of Edelgard and gave her the tools needed to engage in warfare. She's also their symbol as the Flame Emperor, who was meant to wield the sword of the creator. The Agarthans can still exist in the past for Rhea's backstory, but don't include them in the present timeline of the game. Without the Agarthans, you could have had a properly morally grey conflict of Edelgard vs Rhea and the church without Edelgard having to rely upon genocidal psychopaths, so Edelgard doesn't have to be complicit in such atrocities. Similarly, you could have Rhea and her own trauma in the past, but not have the Agarthans exist in this day and age. Thus it's just a moral conflict between Edelgard vs Rhea, with Dimitri and Claude pulled into it when Edelgard invaded both of their nations. The Agarthans ruin Edelgard as a character in many ways, and it hurt the narrative as a whole.
@L.N. i think they are also there so that edelgard would have more of a fighting chance since it was only because of them rhea is able to be taken down in 3/4 routes though its rather telling that for nations that rhea protect to be threaten you would a underground secret super advanced society to make it so the a empire to stand up to rhea....
@@chongwillson972 I have a few responses to that. A) Edelgard aligning with the Agarthans, who are essentially genocidal mole people and who torture innocent people, are bad allies to create simply for Edelgard to have any victory. That's a bad thing, and the devs could have given her much better allies if they wanted her to have allies at all. B) there isn't really an explanation for why Rhea was caught in SS, AM and VW but was not caught in CF. After all, the situation was exactly the same with Edelgard declaring war and invading the monastery. The only difference is that Byleth was with Edelgard in CF, but Byleth somehow falls into that crack in the ground on every route pre time skip. Why didn't they catch Rhea here also? There isn't really much explanation in game, so we just kinda hand wave that Rhea wasn't caught on CF so that Edelgard has a rival to fight.
@@l.n.3372 "B) there isn't really an explanation for why Rhea was caught in SS, AM and VW but was not caught in CF. After all, the situation was exactly the same with Edelgard declaring war and invading the monastery. The only difference is that Byleth was with Edelgard in CF, but Byleth somehow falls into that crack in the ground on every route pre time skip. Why didn't they catch Rhea here also? There isn't really much explanation in game, so we just kinda hand wave that Rhea wasn't caught on CF so that Edelgard has a rival to fight." that one is rather easy, rhea decide not to risk her self as much and was never dogpiled by those giant beasts, she just ran away instead of risk fighting...
@@chongwillson972 That could be true but remember that part 1 of CF ends with Rhea as the immaculate one roaring at Edelgard, Hubert and Byleth. So she's definitely on the front lines. But you're right, she could have just flown away to Faerghus immediately afterwards.
For all of Three Houses' gameplay-related flaws (monastery's too large, activity points and can-only-act-on-Sundays calendar system are _waaay_ too restrictive, gender-locked classes, best mage class is female-only despite Linhardt being an amazing male mage), I do have to admit that it does have the best lore and overall story out of pretty much the entire series. I just wish the academy half of the game wasn't so _goddamn repetitive_ - that alone makes replaying the game seem way too tedious to bother doing.
You know, it will be interesting to see if we get any new interesting lore in FE: Three Hopes. Even if it's an alt universe, Like Age of Calamity, all of the lore up to the point divergence should be the same. On Pan, random theory I just had is that he isn't an Agarthan, he's actually the tactician from FE7, Blazing Sword. You know, the one that showed up helped Lin and Eliwood and then just vanished without a trace? There's literally no evidence for this, and Pan is probably an Agarthan plant like you suggested, it's an interesting idea.
Considering that Elibe literally has a place called Nabata (which is the source of my headcanon that Elibe and Fodlan are connected somehow), I don't think your that far off.
Almost all of the villains in Fire Emblem games are terrible. Either Saturday morning style villains or sadistic evil ones that are evil for the sake of the plot along with character troupe’s. Fire Emblem is no different from Shonen animes in this regard. The main protagonist are typically always blue haired male characters with a legendary sword. With the final bosses being either a Emperor, Dark Sorcerer or Dragon. Criticizing one FE game on this is basically talking about all of them.
Nergal isn't evil for the sake of the plot though. He's evil because after making use of Dark Magic in order to find his wife who was taken from him during the scouring he was corrupted and now has completely forgotten all about his original goal in the first place. FE has its tragic villains, that are more than just comically evil, they have actual motives that or some kind of tragedy to leads them to become who they are. The Agarthans are probably some of the most shallow, even in their own game simply because they are just supremacist's for the sake of it.
In my opinion, while I understand that the game tells you that "in war, no one is right or wrong", I think it's good that the Agarthans are so clearly evil by their own arrogance and seek of power. That contrast helps to ease and "understand" the conflicts the four nuclear figures of Fodlan are engaged in, because every reservation you have against Edelgard's, Dimitri's and Rhea's actions (and Claude to an extent) you can often sympathize by saying "the actions of TWSITD are what made them do this". Humans tend to look for someone responsible of any problem, someone to put the blame on, and since the Agarthans fill that role, we can see the rest of the cast in a more rational way. Just imagine, if we already have arguments about how Rhea is just an oppressive liar, or how Edelgard is just a violent madwoman, etc., now imagine how it'll be if the Agarthans were not here to be this blatantly evil party.
I'm surprised you didn't mention Myson (the Agarthan leader in BL's endgame and Yuri/Constance's paralogue, as well as a named enemy in the Shambhala raid) at all, as he does have a few voiced lines. I guess he's a sort of middle ground between Thales and Solon to some extent, as he has Thales's cunning (the plots he's involved in usually work out to some extent) and Solon's lack of morality in exchange for ensuring results (his "experiment" with the thieves attacking Duke Gerth to turn them into Demonic Beasts does work out) so I suppose he's not really worth mentioning. He didn't even get a unique portrait, instead just getting the generic Warlock portrait instead. I'd like to know more about him, but they gave him a lackluster amount of screen time.
The Agarthans are the best example in the game of the scenario writers' inability to properly write mystery and intrigue. A mystery is useless as a device if there's no reveal, and there are very few reveals in the game. If a mystery isn't revealed, it's not really a mystery. It's just missing information. The writers somehow thought that simply not telling the player things was a good way to create intrigue, but it isn't. At a certain point players just stop caring, because if they'll never find out, then it's not worth it to think about. It makes it seem like we're just not supposed to care about the Agarthans at all, and while I don't think that was really the original intent, it's the way I think most players feel. They might matter, but the game doesn't want to make them matter by actually telling us about them.
I disagree with that. By not revealing all information about the setting, they create a world which is bigger then the game that takes place in it. Otherwise a world feels like it whole purpose is for the current events to take place in which in m opinion destroys any kind of wonder or mystery. And that was quite the intent, in multiple interviews the developer say that they purposefully left the player in the dark about events and locations (like e.g. the dagda-Adrestian war, the tragedy of duscur, the agarthan-nabatean war, almost everthing regarding almyra...) to create a setting that feels bigger then garreg-mach. Which I think they suceeded in. The fact that we still are theorising about the lore kind of proves that.
@@xargonanaris2516 There's certainly nothing wrong with having certain mysteries that remain, especially if they don't have much relevance to the main plot. Knowing exactly what happened with Brigid and Dagda, for instance, doesn't matter to the main plot, so it can just be interesting side lore and not be elaborated on. However, the Agarthans are main characters in the plot. They're kind of the reason why everything is happening. Thales and Solon are main villains of the story. But there is nothing really revealed about them. And that's a huge problem. Maybe we don't need to know everything about Shambhalla and how it came to be, but knowing Thales' background, as a major villain, is very important. The fact that it's heavily implied that he's posing as Arundel but is never actually confirmed in game is a gigantic problem. I mean, imagine if the identity of the Flame Emperor was never revealed and it was just kind of hinted at. Would the fact that Edelgard was posing as the Flame Emperor in part one matter? No, it wouldn't matter at all. But since we know that she did that, it matters quite a bit. The same can be said for some of Edelgard's motivations, Claude's background and parentage, and a host of other things in the game. They *should* matter, but for some reason the writers decided to make them "mysterious" and so now they don't. The entire game shouldn't be "interesting side material." We should be allowed to know things and have things confirmed to us, otherwise we will stop caring about them.
@@Arkholt2 ...I think this comes down to your own preferences. I found Claude's background & Thales's identify to be written directly enough. Edelgard's motives also are well explained... but the majority of people don't grasp how important dragon blood is in the story & that Edelgard is acting a lot like Rhys & Nemesis because of her crests, so I do think if a more sorted explanation of its impact would be nice.
I mean it’s not like people can have a civilized conversation to talk out their problems. …we gotta have all sorts of contrived conflicts and irredeemable villains because there wouldn’t be a story… or any gameplay. I wonder how a diplomacy mechanic would even work in FE.
Technically, diplomacy is attempted in Azure Moon once Dimitri regains his senses and is no longer focused on revenge. However, Edelgard declines and so the battle continues.
@@Deoxys_Used_Mimic It makes sense. Peacefully resolving the conflict would not allow for the world she desired since there would be no way Dimitri would go against the church. And the world she wanted to create could not coexist with the church.
@@josephinefeng3990 The ends don’t justify the means. Remember that when Dimitri asks why she keeps killing people (Black Eagle Route) she responds with (paraphrase): “Then why do you keep killing in retaliation to reclaim your land?” Imagine fighting a bully and the bully’s justification for their actions is “Then why do you keep punching back?” I’m sorry, your nation’s leader is a moron and a hypocrite if they honestly believe they have the right of it.
Thank you so much for the Solon defence man. I may be the biggest fan of the guy and he gets so overlooked for how he behaves towards Claude, and genuinely manages to be more memorable and successful than any of his peers. He deserves his title and man I hope he's somehow playable in Three Hopes :c #SolonSupremacy
thales/arundel: "looks like arundel suddenly stopped donating to the church at this point in time" kronya/monica: "she seems a bit too cheerful considering the circumstances" unknown/cornelia: "her personality and preferences changed all of a sudden" solon/tomas: "what the... tomas was an impostor this whole time?" he was certainly the most successful at maintaining his cover. i feel that warrants a mention
Your videos always make me wish 3H was a BIT more consistent. There's so much potential that just never gets fully utilized. Heck, most of the stuff at the start of this video I totally missed because I didn't bother replaying the entire game again with all the DLC characters. I feel like I've grown an unfair dislike of 3H, mostly because of fatigue, but your videos still remind me what I enjoyed about the game to begin with. (And also at the same time make me feel like any attempts I make to explain literally anything in FE is pointless because you're just so much better at research and presentation lol)
I personally find that Rhea is my favorite villain in Three Houses, which is one reason why I like Crimson Flower the most. She has a tragic backstory and good intentions behind her morally questionable actions (not that Edelgard would know the entire story or care). She has a number of interesting relationships with other characters, which is why it's a shame she can only support with Byleth. Of course it's somewhat justified given she keeps distance from others as Archbishop. From a story perspective, she's effectively built up as an antagonist, and doesn't debut at the last minute like Nemesis, Berserk!Rhea and to some extent, Edelgard's Hegemon form. From a gameplay perspective, she's a challenging final boss- not too easy like Hegemon Edelgard or Nemesis nor overly hard like Berserk!Rhea. Some people complain about Crimson Flower(and to some extent, Azure Moon) not including the war with the Agarthans, but I find that it makes the most sense to end on a climactic note with the battle against Rhea.
I hate Crimson Flower but, unlike some other Rhea fans, I agree that she's at her best in that route. I love seeing her go full "Seiros" and don't think its either out of character or unjustified.
@@daz1543 yep, seeing rhea go all out for the sake of protecting what little family she had left broke my heart what makes CF shine. I'm sure CF would be more appreciated by fans if it was longer and had Edelgard face more accountability and reasoning for her lies, deception and hypocrisy.
The goal of TWSITD was to get the player to cheer for outright genocide for the first time in the series. IS was like, "We made the player feel bad fighting dragons in FE6 and 7 and such, so let's just go and make a group of people that will be fun to outright slaughter."
My issue with the Agartheans has more to do with them being comically evil and it not being addressed as seriously as the rest of the events in the story. Edelgard missing them in her major plotline and the explicit dodging of exactly pointing out their several hands in SEVERAL DIFFERENT genocides outside of throwaway lines really made it feel like a huge lack of self awareness. Creating a group of "super duper evil with no nuance" people and then not actually having the heart to fully detail and unpack their evil actions makes it feel like it was a "Rhea/Edelgard trap card" for defending them and not a genuine analysis of facism, war crimes, and genocide. It's also the issue that I had with the lack of focus put on Dedue regarding the Duscur genocide. It feels like it's a trap card for when they want it, but it's never actually used. The tragedy of Duscur and the genocide of the Nabeteans is essentially the entire inciting action in EVERY route yet these events are used as set dressing but never when imo it's necessary to add nuance. Nobody in CF even mentioned Duscur iirc, despite it being legit the establishment centerpiece of Dimitri and Dedue. It's also one of the actions that the Empire, Western Lords, and TWSITD committed that ended in genocide and opportunistic pillaging. And it's also likely that these events took place under the rule of replacements from their ranks, meaning that the racism, genocide and pillaging of their country was a reward that the imposters themselves benefitted from, implying that the genocide WASN'T a bug but a feature. The false flag wasn't just to escape the accusation but so that the mole racists who were hiding in the Kingdom's ranks could benefit. None of these possibilities are brought up in base game, despite them not being insane stretches by any means, and that's a problem. That's a fumble on their end. Yet when Edelgard and Rhea and even Claude go after TWSITD they just spout vague platitudes about how they're "old guys" and not the genuine pretty capitalizable fear of mole racists who orchestrated a handful of false flags and MULTIPLE genocides. Bc they like to dance around the actual descriptor of "mole racists who commit genocide". Having Facism TM as a villain is fine, but not when you dodge out of fully describing the acts that they committed or spending time to put an emotional highlight on their victims. A lot of TWSITD's actions essentially boiled down to optional crimes that aren't even attributed to them unless you dig deep into the story and aren't blinded by unreliable narration from several cast members. Having such a blatant comic book villain mixed with a story that is too shy and nuanced to actually be rough on them is grating.
My largest issue with the Agarthans is that they serve no narrative purpose. It feels that Kusakihara decided mid-way into the story: "Massacres? War? Famine? No! People can't do that! But these guys can!". They are a scapegoat for all of the evils in modern Fodlan, which drives me mad. There are nations and peoples driven to murder each other for little more than the chance they do not retaliate in a losing war. Are we to believe that they do not exist in Fodlan? I like the description of Hubert's feat at 37:27 - the "in some unexplainable way". For a quick detail: These missiles are not shot. They are dropped. They lack fire to propel them, and are guided upon entry. Considering that Agartha, prior to her first war, had skyscrapers, it is not unimaginable to assert that these are not missiles that are launched; they are orbital missiles that are dropped and guided. Hubert's feat of not only tracking them, but *discovering* Agartha's location is literally an impossible act made possible by him achieving limited Theosis. So, it is not the stupidest thing Arundel could do; it is made silly because there is, quite literally, no way that Hubert could have found the base, but he did anyway. I think the purpose of the missile is two-fold. If we are under the impression that Hubert cannot channel Sothis, then it was likely done for intimidation, but also to prove something. Edelgard is their current savior. However, that knowledge of Crest experimentation is done. Everything they are working toward can, as far as Agartha cares, can be swept under the rug and forgotten, like most of Fodlan's history. Agartha have the technology and research now to do as they please. However, when Hubert channels an intellect greater than Thales of Miletus, the story falls apart. It goes from being a clever tactic to stupid.
While I don't agree the game completely supports your hypothesis of how the missiles work (they are unexplained magic), this was a good post anyways and highlights a lot of the issues with this plot point, despite being a single line from Hubert. The importance of a narrative inconsistency or plot hole does not necessarily (or rarely ever does) correspond with the amount of time it takes up in the story.
I didn't look at when this video was made so I was like 'just call them Shez and Arval, why are you making this weird?' Silly me, it wasn't revealed yet.
It should be noted that not all documents in the Shadow Library are genuine, and referring to the Agarthans as "Those Who Slither in the Dark" is a huge red flag, since that's very distinctly Hubert's name for them. Of course, that raises the question of why Hubert would introduce such a document and why Seteth would consign it instead of destroying it outright. It is also unclear why, in the proposed scenario, the rebels would even need more Relic-like weapons given that they actually held the originals, nor is it explained where such weapons would disappear to after the rebellion succeeds. People often forget that the war fell into a stalemate in CF for a reason. In the lore, the Relics are that strong. And there just being a stash of Crest stones in Faerghus actually makes sense, given that it was Nemesis's land during the War of Heroes, so it's entirely possible he got some loot hidden away that wasn't expropriated properly be the Church in the aftermath, especially given that the Empire didn't achieve total victory in that war. Also, the fact that neo-Agarthans constantly have to work through human interests while being so cartoonishly evil leads me to believe the story would be better off without them, with all parties having full agency. The absolute latest moment when neo-Agarthans legitimately contributed to the plot was with propping up Nemesis, and there would've actually been no difference in the course of everything else if they got wiped out by Seiros then and there. If anything, Edelgard's C support hints that Duke Aegir was at least somewhat informed of the Crest experiments, so it's not too outlandish to suggest that such works could've actually been done by Imperial researchers in secret, chasing the power and legitimizing influence of Crests with no actual regard for the superstitions of their divine origin. Playing Goddess, if you will. The neo-Agarthans aren't smart, they're just playing into an open goal, with the system Seiros inherited from Nemesis already predisposed towards working for their ends. They are terrible at infiltration to the point that Dimitri of all boars can see problems with their guises, but their technology is an outside context problem and shields them from proper scrutiny. Solon, while the best of the lot, still gives himself away for no purpose in Remire. The way things go so well for them makes it look like they're genius manipulators, but in reality they're just taking credit for the corruption inherent in the system, and their "grand plot" is really just a series of events that are only connected by Fodlan's broken feudalism and religion. People often argue that Edelgard misblames the Church for the neo-Agarthan misdeeds, but it is ultimately the Church that gives them such a solid base to work with. It also seems strange to me to take such an issue with the bombing of Arianrhod while glossing over the way Thales got caught completely off-guard on a low-priority mission in AM, to the point of the Javelins never launching in that route because the one guy who could launch them got punked so hard he forgot to teleport out. And Arianrhod isn't even the stupidest thing Thales does in CF. That would be him staying in Fhirdiad to watch the show instead of going to Shambhala to launch missiles the moment the fighting is done. Neo-Agarthan competence is neo-Agarthan propaganda. Also, we know exactly nothing about the neo-Agarthans' endgame, what they would do to the "lesser beasts" after completing the Nabatean genocide. And this is in part because we don't need to know: they're evil and they get stopped on all routes, the end. This is in stark contrast to every other contemporary force, and not in a good way. P.S.: speaking of a recruitable neo-Agarthan and 3 Hopes, there was that shot of what looked like Monica in the trailer...
I've always thought Nemesis wasn't originally evil (or at least he thought he was doing good), but somehow went insane over time. I'm not saying TWSITD wasn't evil, they're completely shitheads. But that all may just be my bias against the Nabeatians speaking
@@reversequeen838 @Reverse Queen yeah, idk. I just thought he thought he was doing the right thing, and not just trying to gain power. To them, a previously unknown god-like race who are superior to humanity in nearly every conceivable way just showed up out of nowhere and became the dominant force in Fódlan. They basically invalidated humanity and replaced the common religion, dragons took humanity's place (and some of their culture) in an instant, I don't think it would be a stretch to say that many of the people would see it like an alien invasion and a threat to the human race. I'm not saying what Nemesis did way right or moral, but I can understand why he would take the path he did. Even the lyrics of God Shattering Star (or at least my interpretation of it) seem to imply this
Galaxy Brain: Dimitri did die and was replaced by an agarthan per Talus's plan, but at some point, he got bumped on the head and forgot. The psychosis is caused by the split between his assumed identity and his initial slitherer identity, *brain tap*
BIG CHONKER VIDEO INCOMING. So how about those Agarthans?! Another Fire Emblem Three Houses video, but this is a huge one about our favorite slithery baddies. Hope y'all enjoy the show. This took a lot of work to write and edit, so please leave a like and comment below your thoughts to help this video's ratings for the sick algorithm.
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Of he's the best he's the SAVIOR of ALL!
Actually how did Jeritza get his hands on the Sytche Of Sariel and why he give it up in caspars and mercedes paralogue
Actually why have Agarthain made weapons either given out directly or just lying in the hands of theives
The Devil Weapons
Spear of Indra
Sytche of Sariel
Wouldn't that be suspicious having weapons made from unknown ores and materials seems kinda suspicious
Faerghast.. it bugs me Many playable characters in game do not acknowledges that People of Duscar Were innocent nearly wiped out and Kingdom committed A Great sin.. it's comes off as a poorly written version of the Serene Massacre from Path of Radiance
One thing I'll say. I think Romance of the Worlds Perdition is actually written long after the events it describes due to the fact that it's referred to as a romance, and not, say, a history. With that in mind, the incredibly biased perspective is to be expected.
EDIT: Forgot to mention, but I personally think Pan was more of a Myson/Cornelia type who eventually became genuinely loyal to Loog and Kyphon and helped orchestrate Faerghus' alliance with the Church. Speaking of that, I think this was actually one of Rhea's smartest moves, basically turning an Agarthan weapon into a stalwart ally and forcing them to retreat and cut their losses.
Sorry for the additional comment, but I do not think Thales is a cold, unfeeling high-functioning psychopath, but rather a slightly more competent fascist dictator, infected with the same mind poison the other Agarthans have. He may not be a barely functional brute like Kronya, but when it counts, he's just as arrogant and liable to slip up as the rest of them, and when things go wrong, his more impulsive, temperamental side shows.
They should have made the Agarthans more like the Enclave from Fallout 2, instead of being an entire people, they could just have been the surviving goverment of the old world and be the direct descendants of all their leaders and the military, which would justify a harsh response more than anything. Have them just be a generation diffrent from the rest due to ancient technology. Also the Enclave is not just more nuanced, they are more evil and yet better to understand than the Agarthans.
For a game that's so big about nuances, perspective and morally ambiguous characters, the Agarthans REALLY stand out as stupidly evil. Their lore is the only thing I find interesting about them.
i mean there is a reason they are not the final boss in any route. They are supposed to be set up for the three houses fighting eachother and nothing more.
@@kayden2119 I agree. I just wish they found a way to make them MORE than that. Edelgard could have been just "the evil conqueror", and Rhea "the corrupted church leader", but they manadged to build on that and make complex characters that still serve their purpose to the story.
@@mio2466 because those are the actual characters. Those who slither in the dark are literally a purposeful mislead.
@@BlackfangDragon True! Still, I find the Agarthans boring. And it seems to me they contradict the whole 'there's no bad guys, just people and their ideals' theme of Three Houses.
@@mio2466 it could have been made so all three factions are somehow responsible for the war. maybe all three leaders (the actual rulers, not the house leaders) end up committing atrocities against the other side, thus starting a war. once they pass on and the lords take center stage, the political situation force them to continue the war despite despite being on friendly terms with each other. maybe all three genuinely believe the other two lords have turned evil and want to win the war for a better future. either way, i want a true 3 way conflict rather than the empire fighting an unrelated fourth faction, the kingdom being collateral, and the alliance not really being its own faction
My take:
Solon was the best executed character of the dubstep molepeople faction.
DUBSTEP MOLE PEOPLE!
That made me laugh.
I think Kronya is a case where she showed up in the marketing, so people (myself included) assumed she would be around longer or more important to the plot.
Tbh I was gonna suggest her as possible recruitable Agarthan in another comment, but looking back on it she is instrumental in sowing absolute havoc in the monastery itself. She kills Jeralt, and is responsible for the summoning of Demonic Beasts inside the monastery.
My two favorite endings in FE (for the games I've been able to play) have been Awakening and Verdant Wind.
Awakening has such good buildup to it. The scene where everyone calls out to Robin is fantastic, and a true reminder of the main theme of the game. Plus, this isn't a normal threat-- Grima is the size of a mountain, and it's up to you to decide how to truly end it all.
And then VW is just so gosh darn ridiculous with going down into Area 51 and fighting mole people who have dubstep and nukes and then a grandpa zombie bandit lord with hardcore opera
I’ll second this. I love the ending of awakening, and I love the ending of VW even more.
There is something perfect about Nemesis is only fought in VW. Claude is the closest thing you get in this game to an unbiased narrator, even if he keeps his cards close to his chest early on. But Claude is able to look past the politics of Fodlan & follow his dream, & because he has that outlook he’s able to solve the real problem that set Fodlan on the path to what it became: Defeat Nemesis.
The "modern" Agarthans were totally evil and irredeemably so, but they didn't start out that way and their descent into evil actually makes a whole lot of sense.
To begin with, there is one undeniable fact about Sothis: She is an invader. Fodlan was already populated by people when she decided to set up shop. While she may have been benevolent, a dictator is still a dictator. Think of it as your mom showing up to your house one day and then going back to treating you like a child, dictating your life and choices. That would get on even the most even-headed person's nerves.
So the Argarthans eventually growing cold and hostile towards the Nabaateans and Sothis was pretty much inevitable, especially given that they were treated as lesser than the Nabaateans. After the war, they were forced underground, into exile.
Now, here's the part that leads to their current incarnation: Resentment festers when everyone around you feels it. They are isolated from the world because revealing themselves would lead to their destruction. They blame the loss of their home on Sothis (semi-rightfully, she DID invade their home, but their actions resulted in their exile). Exiled people tend to hold grudges, and when everyone is holding that grudge, forgive and forget is kinda off the table.
So their second attack on the Nabaateans results in the War of Heroes, where Nemesis falls and they are forced back into hiding. Not to mention, fellow humans decide to side with the remaining Nabaateans. This results in their hate towards them, referring to them as "beasts", seeing them as essentially trained animals doing Sothis's bidding.
So, their loss of home, autonomy and subsequent perceived betrayal by the fellow humans, coupled with their long exile and isolation, leads to a VERY unhealthy outlook. So, even though they are comically evil, it's not unprecedented.
Being honest, one thing I always thought would've been nice would've been that Kronya, instead of being a psycho, was actually a character that acted more out of self-preservation, like, she acted as she did because it was in her best interest, because she knew that Agasthans don't tolerate failure, and as such, tried to go her mission the best as she could, and when she got ambushed in the forest, she grows frustrated instead of going full murderhobo, she had almost completed her mission, she could go back home, and now Byleth and their class want to take that chance away from her, so she lashes out, wanting them dead, not because of her being a psychopath, but because they are a nuisance to her and a risk to her safety. Not only that would make her more interesting and sympathetic, but also worthy of being a redeemed character that might join the group. I have two possible moments for that to happen, one is exactly after Byleth is caught in the spell Solon uses, and the other is as a paralogue in the war phase.
If it was exactly after what happened with Solon, she would be in complete despair, she has lost her home, she has been betrayed, she has nothing else, and all she has left is to disappear in the spell she is in, with that in mind, a new map would appear, one made of darkness, with several places where you can light fires to see better, but acting more like a fog of war map if not done. Here there would be two ways of going about it, either follow the cry for help of Kronya, who is fighting against creatures made of pure darkness while she can't barely fight, since she is being overrun by the enemies, or leave without her. Leaving without her would be a lot easier, since she is getting many of the enemies busy and they haven't picked up on your presence except for the weaker versions that aren't a difficult enemy to deal with, but you will lose the ability to get her, and when you get to her, you will be able to save her by giving her the athame back, which will be a 1-2 range weapon now and has a might of 9 instead of 6, thanks to the spell that took them there having awakened the sleeping power of the athame (I always thought that for an agarthan weapon, the fact that it was worse than normal weapons was weird, and would synergize well with her keen intuition, being the only usable unit that can use it as her personal skill), since she lost it and that was why she wasn't able to fight back, and she was holding on with an iron sword (which will break if you don't help her soon enough). Once you get to her, she will ask you why you do it? She killed Byleth's father after all, but thinking that saying that will make you leave her behind in there (and also, not talking about it in there makes it a possible topic to talk in the support conversations), she stops saying it and says trying to convince you of helping her "Strength in numbers is our only way out I guess. If we want to survive, we might have to do this together." and both leave the place, while having to fight more of this creatures, that are starting to cause more trouble, and if you haven't lit the torches in the level, you don't see where they are coming from (this level would probably be a nightmare in the higher difficulties, so, I can see people leaving Kronya alone because of that, but, again, saving someone is more difficult than leaving them there, but even in that case, you would still get the athame). And if you make it to the end with her, she will say "I don't know why you came there, but thank you and... sorry about what happened outside.", refering at the fact that she killed Byleth's father and then, through the Sothis fusion thing, Byleth breaks from the spell and this time, Kronya is with him, and ready to defeat Solon, having a unique dialogue with him if they both fight, where she is furious with him for leaving her to die there, and he says that she has outlived her purpose, and he intends to fix that as soon as possible.
If it was a paralogue, however, she would be spotted in the forest where she was defeated, but she wouldn't be recognized since people were only able to see a moving shadow and dead animals, and when you find her, she is honestly in a horrible state, she is completely berserk and not only attacks you, but also some beasts that are in the forest, that also attack her, but aren't much of a threat to her, since they are hitting from afar and she is dodging like crazy. She has been years in that spell, and you can see the effects that had on her mind, since she is freaking out all of the time, her hair is long and messed up, and the sting-like things in her suit have the tips broken, with one going so far as being ripped in the middle, and her stare is one of unbridled horror. Whatever was in that darkness really traumatized her, and since she had to fight tooth and nail to get out of there, maybe the way byleth got away weakened the spell enough for her to get out. And there would be a choice again, first defeat the beasts, which is necessary for her to join in that part, and then fight her, and if is Byleth the one who deals the finishing blow, there will be a choice like with Lysithia, where they can spare her now that she is no longer a threat, or exact their revenge against her for killing their father.
Depending on which one it was, the dialogues in the support conversations would be different. In the first one, Kronya would be a lot more apologetic and trying to explain herself, as she sees that even though she was saved by Byleth, they look like they are still holding grudge over her past actions, and explains why they did what they did, talking about Agartha and who the agarthans are, and why she believed in their cause, but also felt so betrayed when Solon used her to cast the spell, while in the second one, her dialogue would be more of a sittuation where she realizes that she has nowhere to go now, and as such, tries to find a way to be of service to the rest of the group, because that's what she knows, that she is only appreciated when she is of use, and uses that mentality inside Byleth's army, something that makes Byleth furious, because at first he thinks that Kronya is acting like she can fix what she did with simple things like he thinks she is doing, but when she expreses why she does this in the A support, it's made clear that the reason why she does this is out of fear of abandonment, being left out again, while at the same time explaining what she saw in those who slither in the dark. This probably is too long of a comment, but felt like it could be an interesting way of looking at how a possible Kronya redemption might look if she wasn't a psychopath, but more of a grounded character.
After experiencing mobius from xenoblade 3, I can’t hate the villains of 3 houses like I use to.
Also nobody can top how corny and evil for evil’s sake king Garon was.
I really like your part on dimitri's survival of duscae. Makes a lot of sense and showed me sth I wasn't aware of before
This video is wonderfully made! I always hated that this game had so much lore in the background yet we were forced to take part in some unnecessary war. They should’ve given us more cutscenes or something! The fact that dimitri and edelgard’s arc end without them getting revenge was so stupid to me. I hope the sequel coming out answers more questions because there is so much lore and world building, left on the table.
I honestly wish even half of the cool lore you just covered was properly conveyed through the game itself. Like, actual cutscenes and campaigns rather than little bits and pieces sprinkled throughout the entire thing.
Imagine if they do a dlc/game where you play as the agarthans before the events of 3 houses. That way we can learn first hand about everything that happens and can even introduce some morally gray characters who arent 100% on board with Thalas’ plan
The funniest part looking back, the slithers plan completely falls apart with shez's existence
The agarthans were villains that almost seemed unrealistic. They have so much power but only desire to do risky things for revenge. They are all shown as emotionless brilliant cunning individuals, yet seemingly none of them understood that they could use their advanced technologies to just leave and conquer a different territory away from the church and never have to deal with the Nabataeans.
They could have just left several hundred years ago, and it would make much more sense. They hated the nabateans for forcing them underground, but they could just leave and be above ground forever and just become a new aboveground society. I just don't understand their motives if they're supposed to be so smart...
Maybe it's because my interest lies primarily in characters, not lore, but I can't say this video changed my mind about the slithers as a faction. They're just bad villains, on every account, probably designed solely for the purpose of turning Edelgard from the main villain into a "gray" character. The game really wants you to think Edelgard is a gray character and not the iredeemable spawn of Satan for some reason. I wouldn't be surprised if the slithers' inconsistencies came from that. Think about it: 1) Dimitri is spared in Duscur, somehow. 2) there's this weird plotline where Dimitri goes crazy enough to think Edelgard killed his parents.
Wouldn't it all make a lot more sense if Edelgard did actually kill people in Duscur as a child in proto Fe3H? Sparing Dimitri, her first love, would make sense then. And so would Dimitri going crazy when he recognizes his parents' murderer in full feathery regalia.
Anyways, even the past accomplishments of slithers don't quite strike me as smart or inspired. For instance, about Loog's rebellion, considering the Church eventually aknowledged Faerghus and they were in a good relationship when the game started, can dividing the empire really be called an accomplishment ? Meh. I don't know. For me, since there's no playable character who's an Agarthan, or has a strong personal relationship with Agarthans, it's hard to even consider them part of the game. The fact that Rhea isn't even aware of their existence nevet made me impressed with their stealth and cunning, it just proved to me their actions never mattered enough to catch her eyes.
Fair enough it's all a matter of perception, but that was mine: the least threatening clowns in black I have ever seen.
Doesn't the Crimson Flower path also contain less chapters than the other paths? It does feel like the shadow war was left on the cutting room floor. It would have given that path an overall better ending too?
Great work as always, Ghast. Really enjoyed getting to go over all the lore again!
Personally, I was okay with the Slithers being a bunch of cartoon villains. They always came off as a bunch of Nazi-analogues - given their racist rhetoric, genocidal ambitions, shallow appropriation of Asian iconography, questionable perception of history, and being literally-white supremacists who want to replace out the dominant culture of the continent with their own twisted ideology - so the story making them a bunch of enjoyably-punchable fascists worked for me, because Nazis are dicks and no one cares if they get punched.
That being said, while I would never want redemption arcs for the leaders, I do think it’s a shame that we didn’t get - as you said - an Agarthan who rejected that supremacist nonsense and switched sides. I think a Salem-type character could have been darkly interesting, especially for Verdant Wind or something.
I completely agree with your final rant; the biggest problem was that the Slitherers was that they just felt shallow and substanceless, despite there being potential ways to circumvent this in the design process.
I will disagree a little bit with your praise of their ability to plan long-term though. While yes it shows them as competent, it also makes them feel super unrealistic IMO, especially when - as you pointed out - we don't even really understand their motives for being anti-Sothis in the first place. A sympathetic Slitherer character giving us insight into their culture/beliefs could have remedied this for sure. The Church of Seiros is lead by an actual immortal dragon demigod, and yet Rhea's longterm plans don't seem to extend beyond maintaining peace and making the continent a better place, plus her attempts and reviving her mother (but we don't know how long she was attempting this for, if I recall correctly). In contrast, the Slitherers as a multigenerational group spanning a millenia are able to perfectly coordinate, without any internal dissent, a revenge plot against a dead god with potentially NO end in sight. It just defies belief.
Also if their only goal was revenge on Sothis' surviving family, they could have multi-nuked Garreg Mach at any point, and then just hunted down the other survivors like Seteth, Flayn, Indech, and Macuil, because they seriously aren't THAT tough. No need to orchestrate a continent-wide war, guys.
If their goal is world domination that makes them even less relatable and seem even more incompetent, partly because of stuff you mentioned (like Thales nuking Arianrhod) and partly because they're all either psycho clown murderers or evil scientists. They'll either never be accepted by society, need to wipe out all or most other people to thrive on the surface (in that case just stay in Shambhala, it has the same effect of living alone but with much less work involved), or they're just illogically driven by their innately evil natures, I guess.
Since they're themed around advanced technology, they could have been motivated by a desire to spread this technology across the world to improve peoples' lives. Then Rhea could be more (consistently) villified from a certain light by being opposed to this because of the (warranted) fear that such technology will only cause conflict and the benefits don't outweigh the negatives caused by humanity's violent tendencies. This plot point already exists in a fragmented form; the reason Sothis cast the Agarthans underground is because the they "spilled too much blood," according to the book in the shadow library. So to balance this out, give the Slitherers a "national" philosophy centered around survival of the fittest - basically they care about linear advancement (of technology, civilization, the human individual, etc.) above all else.
But to give the Slitherers the spotlight and characterization they need to be salvaged would be a pretty sizeable rewrite of the game. It's unfortunate that despite Three Houses' overall stellar character writing, worldbuilding, and lore, the Slitherers somehow manage to be the most unrelatable and least logical evil cult faction in this franchise, which is infamous for its one-dimensional evil cult factions.
Crimson Flower feels cobbled together.
I have a small theory about Hubert, I think he could be a Agarthan. If you think about It, we never get any explanation of why Hubert uses Dark Magic, everyone with a confirm explanation is either Agarthan or has been use as experiments by then. Agarthan Talk some Sort of extrange tone/rythym that Hubert also uses. It also would explain why he is Edelgard retainer, he was put there to supervise Edelgard but ended up falling in love with her. Or why is he so apathetic he would have been rise in a world where normal humans were seen as mere Beast.
Edit: I just check VW/SS Rheas death and I realise that the Javelins don't come from Shambala, Thales summon them and they fall right from the Sky so they can't come from Shambala what means Hubert just couldn't locate Shambala using them.
Hubert isn't Agarthan. He is a member of house Vestra, which has served the imperial family for centuries. He learned dark magic essentially to become the shadow to Edelgard, by performing the acts she cannot as a figurehead. His dark magic is basically symbolic for what he's willing to do in service of her cause, sparing her the need to do such actions herself.
Jeritza also uses 1 dark magic spell. It's possible he does the same as Hubert too.
@@l.n.3372 TWSITD have been in the Empire for years and could perfectly replaced the real Hubert or been a full Agarthan House by this point. And they never confirm the second thing you said, Hubert never said he suggested himself to anything and Edelgard already could use Dark Magic. What you said there is just a Theory like mine.
@@l.n.3372 House Vestra could be descendants of Agarthans. I mean, it is interesting that Hubert's canonical class is dark bishop
Also he kinda looks like them too with his grayish skin and weird eyes
But that doesn't mean he's secretly against Edelgard, we all know how much he likes her
@@lambtoken2708
Hubert doesn't resemble Agarthans at all. His eyes are light green and his skin is normal. Thales, Solon, and Kronya all look very, very different from Hubert, appearance wise. And as I explained before, the dark magic is not exclusive to Agarthans either. Jeritza has a single dark magic spell too, and we don't know how he got that either. I think it's just because Jeritza and Hubert like the darkness/prefer to act as agents of the dark. Whole Lysithea, Hapi, and Edelgard have dark magic as a result of the experimentations.
I didn't realize there was this much story to Three Houses. I never spent time in the Library so that's probably why😂😂
I'm okay with them being pure evil since they actually have a motive. Which is kinda the bare minimum but they aren't the main focus
sick content
Props for surviving having to say 'Nemesis's' several times
The proper plural is "nemeses," pronounced like "seas." Same with crisis/crises.
@@WhiteManOnCampus too bad he isn't trying to say a plural version.
@@sarzootashoota351 true, what was even their point
Is it just me or are Fire Emblem antagonists either really interesting or really comically and obviously evil? No middle ground.
There is a middle ground for FE villains and they are just the Bandits who just show up whenever the writers can't write a reason why the bad guys are in "insert location here".
@@V-Jes I mean, many of them are pretty comically evil, like Gheb.
@@gabcard2767 and majority of them don't really get anything as they are just there to be bandits, what is all the reason the protagonists need to kill them all.
Walhart is rather silly and over the top but also has some of the more interesting battle dialog in Awakening and is suddenly recuitable.
In some aspects he feels proto-edelgard.
@@wouterW24 Walhart had a very similar cause to Edelgard. Difference is, he never bullshit anybody about what he does. He knows he's not some righteous clean-handed champion, he's a mere mortal wresting control of destiny and saving the world in the way he knows best. His methods aren't exactly perfect, but I'd sooner serve him than Edelgard, just because he's more honest about his place in the conflict. Plus, he shares the potential that, in a post-war world, his conquests would lead to longterm gains as Edelgard's would, so both at least have a decent idea for a post-war world.
Something I've found curious about the Agarthans is how we never see any civilians, while Kronya (supposedly the lowest in rank) is killed by one of her own in the name of the cause. For all they talk about how superior they are to the rest of life on Fodlan, how much or how little do they really value the lives of their fellows?
There's a quote that goes something like "The measure of a civilization is how it treats its weakest members", and when you try to compare this to the Argarthians they seem pretty cruel.
Yeah, I feel this is sort of the point about them. As magical Nazis, they really only value each other in that they all are of the master race, and not really for any other reason. Everyone is but an expendable cog for Agartha.
They are so consumed by hate, that they basically have nothing BUT hate. Their purpose, their EXISTENCE has become tied to their hate.
only the strong ones rules i guess
Epimenides did go in as a one man Army to see that his people are not harmed. Also he personally dislikes Thales methods
The Agarthans as a whole are the very definition of the phrase "more than meets the eye". Their cartoonishly evil actions are but the first layer of one surprisingly huge yet legit intringuing (imo) iceberg.
In Early times the Argatneans were smart until modern times where they antagonizing edelgard without any backup plan... honestly they should of just kept her mother alive and as a Hostage
@@elpopman2055 I mean, judging how they still had Javelins of Light to destroy Shambala in VW and SS after nuking Merceus, they probably could have done the same to Edelgard and the Black Eagle Strike Force after Seiros was defeated in Fhirdiad.
And then "Lord Arundel" takes control of the empire and the now reunified Fodlan, with the Nabateans and the Church of Seiros destroyed
It looks like three hopes is gonna reveal more about the agarthans with the new Arval character
@@hussyweissshutup1275 Epimenides as well
I've heard people say that Monica should have been a student of yours from the beginning, and that after she's taken with Flayn, her personality changes, but she's still a playable unit, until the moment she reveals herself as Kronya. I'm actually ok with how it goes in game (that's really sad 😭) but I do think that would have been a really interesting way to go about it. And it would fix the problem you talk about at the end!
That would have been super cool. And made more sense in-universe than the explanation we got of her going missing a year ago, then nobody questions the circumstance or asks her anything about it when she's still 100% fine when found in Death Knight's dungeon.
That is interesting. Alternatively, they could scrap Monica and have Kronya impersonate Flayn. Though unless you rewrite a lot more, you then have to find some excuse to find the real Flayn later. Maybe in those ruins where they were turning students into monsters, they were still tapping her blood for further experiments.
*student mysteriously goes missing*
faculty: "eh, probably ran away. better not talk to her family about it either"
Given how Age of Calamity gave us more interactions with the Yiga Clan and even had them defect to our side in the story, I can see the devs for 3 Hopes trying something similar with the Agarthans. I doubt they will do a full face turn since THEY ARE the main enemy in Fodlan but perhaps we might get a new Agarthan character that gives us a more median perspective of their kind beyond just being evil and arrogant. Who knows, perhaps the new character they showed Byleth fighting will be such an Agarthan that will take on a more Camus or Mustafa-esque role for their faction.
the idea of a kryona or thales redemption arc is so comically silly that i hope it happens honestly
If they were to do one for any of them it’d be Kronya. Since time travel Is involved I could see them justifying it through her knowing that they’re going to betray and sacrifice her. She killed half a dozen people, but if the time travel goes back further than that event, then I could see them managing to redeem her more than if it was after she killed jeralt, though hopefully with everyone still remembering her do it the first time. I think it could actually be really interesting if done well
They did that with Sara and Salem in Thracia as an addition to the lore of Geneology so I could see that working here too
It'll be good for sure. On the other hand, they already have entire 3H cast to do something with. Which they may not even add, coz of they little importance tbh. Still, agartan ally will be very good!
@@mysticwater9056 Honestly, I can see Kronya getting one.
Personally, I like portraying Odesses, (the Agarthan leader during VW’s final battle), as a guy who is frustrated and disgusted by Thales’ actions and experiments, but only follows along out of concern for his fellow Agarthans. Though that’s just headcannon/fan fiction based on they guy’s two lines of dialogue.
You probably put more thought into this guy than anyone who's ever played or worked on the game, so this is my new headcanon too.
Well he says "Ah Thales..." or something when he dies so I don't know about that but definitely seems way nicer
@@Quaelandys I believe an argument could be made by that line being more along the lines of “Curse you Thales”. At least that’s my interpretation of the line.
I personally don't headcanon this. I think that he's just concerned about committing too much of their already depleted manpower to this final battle, though I do agree that he sounds like a tired old man.
I recall my first time playing AM and being really confused about the slitherers falling off the face of the planet after being set up as major villains before the time skip. The whole time, I was expecting Thales to return, little knowing I had already killed him! Then, in the final map, I wondered why some random evil mage showed up instead of the leader of the slitherers! Not to mention, it's the only route where they aren't explicitly killed off, so who knows what they might do in the future
Same. It only dawned upon me after having played GD route that we just flattened pretty much every notable member of the slitterers without ever knowing about it.
I also wondered why AM-route did not have one of the javelins (nukes) raining on any city until i replayed the route and realised Dimitri just runs over their leader in claudes map.
I think it's because AM wrote themselves into a corner with TWSiTD in that they're the ones responsible for the tragedy of Duscur, so revealing them in Dimitri's route diminishes his arc with Edelgard, but they also had to get rid of the super villains with missiles so they just sloppily inserted Thales in to be killed.
I still love how it's basically the door slamming the dog meme
I felt so deeply chilled after playing AM as my 2nd route, knowing they were still out there after the final chapter...
They survive in all routes. Do you really trust the ending text for Crimson Flower, which left the cult in the best position by neutering the rest of the continent and Byleth?
Despite being the main string pullers lore-wise, I feel like development-wise the Slitherers were added kinda late. It explains their lack of characters, the illogical choices, and the inconsistent plot participation. It is like IS took all of the potentially complicating lore elements like the Tragedy of Duscar, the child experiments, and the relics and slapped the Slitherers on them to make them the cut-and-dry villains. Maybe the initially intended for there to be a golden route? Because those three aforementioned lore elements would have been more interesting if perpetrated or at least instigated by the three main factions themselves.
I kinda late to the party, but still want to say that i think you are right here. I feel like Edel should be a main antagonist, because adding Slithers messed her story the most. Not only she lost a major chunk of her agency, given how worst of her atrocities now attributed to them, her routes became an absolute mess in terms of her motives. She wants to dismantle tyrannical Rhea, but Hubert is going to build a society in which she will rule with an iron fist in his A support with Byleth. She wants to get rid of corruption in church but she installs count Varley, probably the most corrupt person alive in the Empire, as a new head of church. Rhea is her main enemy, and still war going on 5 years after Rhea's imprisonment.
Not talking about how her route is mostly about helping the real antagonists of the story. It's like somebody would create a game about WW2 with only playable factions is Allies, Soviets and Italy
my own personal belief is a bit of a massive reach but here's my theory on the Slithers: My theory is that the first conflict between the Nabataens and Agarthans was also an Agarthan civil war. It's extraordinarily unlikely that an entire race of people would see attempted genocide, even as retaliation in-kind, as an acceptable resolution to their conflict. As such, those Agarthans who dissentted may very well have sided with the Nabataens. We notably only know of 2 explicitly named races of sentient humanoids in Fodlan: Nabataens and Agarthans and surface dwelling people are categorized based on nationality, i.e. Adrestian, Duscur, etc. The reason then, why we don't see any "good" Agarthans, is that all the characters we know of as "Agarthans" are explicitly those driven underground festering in their hatred for generations and warped physically after centuries underground, with any surface-dwelling Agarthans having long since discarded their former name for their race and simply going as "humans"
I don’t care if they’re “comically evil”; TWSITD’s history, mysteriousness, and competent manipulation of the continent over at least a thousand years makes them excellent villains imo. They don’t feel generically evil; they’re doing all this because they have a devout belief that they’re saving their world from the “beasts” that sent them underground. It’s a great representation of human hubris and arrogance dooming their entire civilization.
Edit: Also, them being mere humans behind all that technology makes them more relatable in that we can put ourselves in their shoes and see things from their perspective. There’s no evil god or dragon to fell in this game, just endless wars on a continent long past its prime.
They SHOULD be all of those things that you mentioned. But because they're not handled very well, and because of their cliche evil actions, they end up as more generic instead.
For example, their actions in torturing, experimenting on, and killing children. And using children as test subjects for crest transfusion and crest stone transformation. There's absolutely no justification beyond generic evil acts.
TWSITD are so competent and amazing that they are completely and utterly defeated in one map. Sometimes not even that, in AM Hapi just kills them all offscreen. What amazing villains.
@@vanjagalovic3621 Dimitri kills their leader without even knowing, and Edelgard routs them in a single sentence. Truly incredible villains.
@@vanjagalovic3621
Not true actually. Pretty sure in Claude's ending with someone, it mentioned minor Agarthan battles in the future. And they never defeated Cornelia in VW/SS.
@@l.n.3372 It's mentioned that somehow the remaining empire and agarathan soldiers teamed up and were somehow going to kill Byleth until Claude came back and just easely wiped them out. It's a pretty silly ending that doesn't make a lot of sense.
Dmitri's survival isn't a big deal imo. Assassination attempts are always horribly messy affairs. Look no further than the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand for an example here. It's very possible that Dmitri had run away from the main caravan to look at a bird or something, saw his father get beheaded from several hundred feet away, and then got saved by Gilbert.
Or perhaps they killed someone else who was wrongly identified as Dmitri.
My headcannon is that Dimitri still had that long haircut so they thought he was a girl, lol.
It's not the fact that Dimitri survived an assassination attempt, it's the fact that he's clearly stated to be the ONLY survivor of the massacre. All of the other royalty/nobility, all of the knights and other soldiers were slaughtered. But somehow the child Dimitri not only lived, but witnessed his fathers' execution during the event (so he wasn't just absent or hidden away in a secret compartment or something). It makes the group which carried out the massacre remarkably incompetent, because they clearly won the battle and killed 99% of their targets - so what was their excuse for not checking that everyone was dead and then finishing Dimitri off?
@@LoudWaffle then he moved on to think a child his age had all alone planned and orchestrated it. Truly the King of Delusion, in a time like theirs his ending at Edelgards end truly is a kinder fate for all of Fodlan.
@LoudWaffle Who knows, perhaps he hid in the piles of corpses and waited until they left to inspect the carnage, now that would be pretty gruesome but survivable, assuming they didn't burn the bodies, he could've still seen his father's execution in the corpse pile and be disturbed if there was ever an anime of other media that would expand more upon this, I do hope they fix this, it would've been a pretty disturbing scenario he had to endure, but whatever the case, it all came down to one thing, he was just extremely goddamn lucky and I've seen cases in real life where people do get lucky, stupid levels in fact.
Personally, The Agarthans are basically the Thabians if Duma hadn't destroyed the city. Everything about the story about Agartha and the rise and fall of Those Who Slither in the Dark sound a lot like the story of Thabes and its people. Both were founded in a collaboration between humans and dragons and both are stated to be advanced civilizations because of it. The difference is that Duma, fearing humanity's amassing power, led an army of Divine Dragons and destroyed the city for 3 days, and the survivors that fled would go on to spread the story about the city being brought down by their own hubris. Meanwhile, Sothis only got involved with the Agarthans once they declared war on her and the Nabateans.
It's ironic in a way that Duma, whose actions are portrayed as bad, ended up ensuring something like TWSITD would never happen (the closest we get are the Grimleal but they worship a god rather than seek to kill beings like Naga and Grima). Sothis, on the other hand, is portrayed as good yet her actions in not only not stopping the Agarthas till it was too late but also not making sure they were all dead, resulted in the eventual story of Three Houses.
You know this video gave me a better appreceation for TWSITD. I previously hated them and wished they didn't exist. They were still missused but they seem cooler now, At least in the past before the start of the game.
44:12 I think that Cornelia dies in Silver Snow and Verdant Wind anyways, except that we don't see her as Cornelia. I think that Bias, the Gremory that controls the Titanus robots in Shambhala, is the real identity of "Cornelia". So, in the routes where you raid Shambhala, you also end up killing Bias/"Cornelia" during gameplay, just without a dedicated cutscene.
Is this like how Dimitri Accidentally kills Thales because he's supposedly the true identity of Arundel
That's what I think, especially since Cornelia calls the Titanus her "children", and Bias summons them in Shambala.
Do they share the same voice actress?
@@papersonic9941 Bias doesn't have a voice actress.
According to Three Hopes, she's actually Cleobulus. Bias is a totally different Agarthan.
I think regard Thales’ use of the javelins you have to keep in mind the fact they view all surface humans as essentially beasts. While Thales acts polite to Edelgard as flame emperor a lot of the time, he sees her almost certainly like an unruly dog. Useful, but needing to be put in her place with force. He and his fellow Agarthans probably can’t even imagine the idea of these surface humans being anywhere near competent enough to actually threaten them except for Byleth, thanks to the Sothis thing. Hence, Edelgard murdering Cordelia is, in his mind, like when a pet misbehaves, and needs to be taught a lesson by it’s owner. Ignoring that, I think it would be cool to learn what exactly set off the conflict between the Agarthans and Nabaeateans
While the Slitherers make good villain's in that love-to-hate sort of way, I think their addition was a mistake as it muddies the game's themes. In a story about three people doing what they think is right, each making sketchy decisions (the degree of which has been argued many times before), having a secret organization actually responsible for everything just feels like a copout. It gives Rhea/the church a better excuse to behave the way they do because their opposition is so much worse than them, and in a game begging you to question what a society with crests would look like, the Slitherers distract from the point by being behind some of the most sinister aspects of the world.
Exactly! In a story that all about moral ambiguity, placing an objectively evil group pulling all the strings of history (while a cool concept) completely defeats the point of moral ambiguity. This is one of the reasons my playthrough of the Black Eagles route was soured, because this whole time we are fighting the church I kept thinking "Is this *really* who we should be focused on?"
You're forgetting that it was humans who also collaborated with TWSITD, ranging from quest experiments to aiding rebellions. Loog could've remained loyal to the empire, but he was swayed by the promise of power. There's a text in the game that mentions when that when Pan, Loog's tactician, was Among Us'ed, people who knew him claimed his behaviour changed. The Argathans are bad, but they couldn't do it on their own.
I actually feel that them being more of the objectively evil ones in the plot is perfectly fine and fitting. They clearly have outlined motivations and reasons for their actions that are at least somewhat understandable, but they simply aren't people that are acting morally or more altruistically like the 4 main factions. They're ultimately the most resentful and bitter of them all and it shows. Also, the agarthans being more objectively evil than any of the factions by far adds to the story relating to the other houses, as it makes you question the legitimacy of edelgard and the empire if they are willing to work with the agarthans. It also makes the feuds caused by the agarthans and the misplaced blame and rage more tragic as well as more compellingly frustrating, such as with dimitri and rhea blaming everything on edelgard as well as edelgard being misinformed about fodlan's history, falling into the same trap of hubris as the agarthans and that she claims rhea falls into. It's fine to me to have more objectively unjustified characters because they still make sense, the only real issue I have with them is that their society and presence in the world can seem rather unfitting. If they didn't exist, the confusion and diluted information as well as mass manipulations of the world wouldn't exist as compellingly or meaningfully imo so I cherish their place in the game
Thales is trurly dissapointing in the game. I find weird how this group manage to replace many famous figures without people noticing but were too lazy to look for Byleth's body in the cliff.
The problem of creating a lore based in lies and half-truths is that sometimes it can get hard to explain; but, I think you did a great job.
To be speculative I don’t think Sothis was oppressive generally speaking she’s shown to be good natured and her surviving descendants could be proof of that, the ones that we’ve seen anyway, two of the saints became hermits but are not bad people, they all have every reason to despise humanity and even if some view humans with some cynicism they’re not going around taking it out on them, Rhea seems to be the special case but in context the borderline insanity and desperation is not exactly unrealistic, and despite her many faults, she is still redeemable.
So again to be speculative I assume the thing that caused the agarthans to instigate a war on that scale was something more primal, as stated within the game Nabateans had multiple settlements so the agarthans might’ve felt anxiety and fear over their people eventually becoming a minority, making Sothis and her people the objectively dominant group so they started a war in hopes of snuffing out the Nabatean flame before it becomes an inferno, and the whole thing could’ve been fanned even further by the agarthan’s religious sect that saw Sothis as a false deity and a usurper of their own god/gods.
So honestly I very much agree that they should’ve shown a genuine exception to the rule in regards to agarthans, preferably in the form of a recruitable unit, as it is now we’ve seen little to no evidence that the agarthan survivors are anything but arrogant, sociopathic megalomaniacs that continue to be the main force behind the suffering of Fodlan’s people. I want to be optimistic about the spin-off’s story fleshing out the world of three houses more but then I’m reminded of age of calamity so I’d temper my expectations.
Speculation can turn anything on it's head. Sirius is the star associated to Sothis and probably the Nabatean race as a whole. Seiros is just the ancient Greek name of Sirius. It is also the star that signifies the rise of heat, the arrival of "dog days" in where dogs begin to pant harder and appear more crazy, and to Chinese astronomy, the symbol of invasion and plunder. Sothis could have just as well been like Julius Ceasar a conquerer and god of his own time. There were plenty of Roman opposition to his actions and yet in the end he was still made a god to the Romans by the surviving Cesarian faction. We clearly cannot trust the words of Rhea or Seteth because of how they view anyone who opposes the Church of Seiros. They call them heretics fit only for death. The other saints do not talk about this, they choose to hide away so we cannot infer their current thoughts about the church and the direction it went. Flayn has been alone in Zanado for the majority of her life and can be gaslighted by Seteth and Seiros into believing whatever they taught. Flayn is never questioned on her faith in the church. We don't know what she thinks about the church and the direction it went. There's a reason why the Agarthans rose up against Sothis and we will never know, but speculation doesn't clear up the situation, it only reinforces what you want to believe.
“Um you’re just speculating.”
Uh yeah? That’s what I said…twice, and to be fair so are you. There is not enough info for us to get a clear picture so we just throw some in game and real world knowledge together to try and make sense of it all but here’s what I have to say about your speculation.
1. Seiros is rhea’s false persona, just a means to an end for a woman driven mad with grief and trauma, seiros also can mean “destructive” in Greek yeah? So it’s a perfect false name for Rhea since she was heII bent on revenge during the war of heroes, and it should be mentioned again, mentally speaking she is VERY unwell, so it isn’t exactly justified to use this one crazy Nabatean to judge Sothis and the rest of her people.
2. In comparison generally speaking Seteth is a very wise, kind and open minded individual if you’ve seen his supports, the only extreme thing about him is his obsession with Flayn’s safety, which is probably why he goes along with Rhea’s church, it’s the best option he has when it comes to protecting his daughter while easily providing for her.
3. Flayn was both born and raised in Enabarr not Zanado as far as we know, and according to the game she was also asleep for a long time due to her war time wounds, Flayn is not questioned because why would she be, Rhea most likely established the church to both have enough authority so she can use any means necessary to bring her mother back while protecting the remaining Nabateans.
@Sloff This is gonna be a long one. Flayn was raised in Enbarr as a child but hid in Zanado with Seteth after the war of heroes until he left for Garreg Mach. My point on Flayn is that she's too naive to be able to accurately gauge the Church of Seiros' actions throughout history since she never took part of it. While Seteth and even Rhea are good people when they want to be, the same can be said for most despotic tyrants in history. You can't gauge Seteth through his interactions with students and Byleth alone. The true gauge of Seteth's actions are when he's exercising power as a church authority and he has condemned people to death time and again throughout the game. Who's to say how many times he's killed for the church's sake throughout his time in Garreg Mach. He intentionally destroyed opposition of the church. You can argue that it was for the protection of Flayn, but it's still active suppression of other ideas and people. Seteth is wise but not benevolent in the slightest. As for Seiros, you can infer that Rhea may have modeled herself after Sothis by donning a similar name. Solon calls Byleth the fell star after the TWSITD figure out she's Sothis incarnate. The narrations of the months mention the rise of the blue sea star as the months become warmer. They also mention that the people of Fodlan believe that it's the goddess' home. Sothis is tied to the star Sirius, giving us hints that while she represented fertility and life giving warmth, everything good associated with summer in ancient times. But she is also tied to the bad in summer too, plague, disease, war. Seiros taking another form of her mother's name and raising an army to destroy the last of Agartha can reinforce the idea that Sothis was a conquerer that used might where words failed. "Sirius is not gone, and you will know this, humans." It's clear that the Agarthans feared Sothis, it just sucks that we don't know whether it's before or after the annihilation of Nabatean settlements. But you can't isolate Rhea as the lone manic actor of Nabatea after losing her people and mother if it's hinted in both ingame and real life lore that Sothis is the bringer of destruction as well as warmth. Another interesting point is Sothis stopping at just Fodlan. If she had the power of a god why did she not take Sreng or Duscar. Maybe in Three Hopes we'll find out but it's possible that Sothis tried this and failed like the Romans in Germania. That's why Seiros forbade contact with the outside world. Or maybe Sothis' power was not enough to reach beyond Fodlan because even she's not all powerful. Who knows. It is, however, really hard to pull away from the idea that Sothis used force when necessary if you have a even a middling background in history. Plenty of good people do horrible things in service to their ideals. Maybe that's why Macuil chose to remain impartial to the world after the war of heroes. All of this is speculation so yeah intsys could come in at any time and confirm Sothis is top cinnamon roll but they left it vague specifically to let us connect the dots. And like connecting the dots of Sirius and it's companions to make the constellation of Canis major, we can see what we want in the stars and make our own conclusions. Just remember this, the history of rulers is always filled with hatred, death, and conquest. Being a god doesn't change that.
@@kirbyslayer20 It would be best if you used spaces to make this more readable.
@@kirbyslayer20 Imagine hating Rhea so much that you *actually* take the words of the Agarthans, a.k.a. the one and only faction directly shown *and* stated to be straight up evil, at face value. No. Just no. There is absolutely *no* evidence beyond the the tangential and one's own headcanon to suggest the Nabateans were anything but peaceful co-existors.
How can you say they’re the most comically evil villains when King Garon is right there?
Because even Garon has a bigger reason for all his actions considering his just a possessed corpse in Fates...
I honestly find the Begnion senator to be the most comically evil villains. They frequently choose to be evil when they would be better served by doing something good (or decent...or just not evil.) As evil as is was to murder the laguz messenger, it was equally stupid.
@@PublicNMEno1 Tellius has the senate which is incredibly comically evil (except that bald dude who saved Rafiel) and also one of the most sympathetic villains that wants to destroy the world, Lehran.
*Garons of increasing discomfort*
@@alexmartin6561 I barely count Oliver just because I have a hard time taking him seriously as a character. You are correct in that I completely overlooked Lehran, though.
I wouldn't say Dimitri's survival is that weird, even if it wasn't intentional on the slitherers' part. As we've mentioned, their hubris is a common point of downfall for them, they probably thought "well, he's just a kid, we can leave him for last" and by the time they got to him either his crest awakened and he put up enough of a fight or Gilbert and reinforcements were already arriving on the scene, with the weakened Agarthans running out of time.
Heck, maybe they dealt him a fatal blow and never expected him to survive, but Gilbert was there faster than any armor knight adjacent should be arriving anywhere.
As for why let him live afterwards, well, they couldn't really make too big a move too quick lest they attract attention to themselves, plus whoever was still loyal to the previous king I think would do whatever they could to ensure the survival of the crown prince, so actually getting a chance at Dimitri would have been tough.
It's not the strongest point narratively, by a long shot, but it's not really anything weak or stupid, I'd say it's just there
I'd have liked to see some route changes so that we could actually seen TWSITD as final villains on two routes.
1. What we got in SS should've instead been the canon ending of Cindered Shadows, so that all the house leaders and Rhea fail without Byleth.
2. SS should've had Cornelia poisoning Dimitri's mind throughout. Then he could survive or be revived after Talitean, and been a puppet king final boss of the route, with TWSITD rallying behind Cornelia after the fall of the empire.
3. CF could've had Edelgard work more with Alliance defectors led by Count Gloucester, instead of TWSITD. Then end after defeating Rhea with an actual ending against TWSITD.
YESSS
I think a twsitd ending in cf probably would've just ended up being going to the vw/ss Agatha map a third time, but with edelgard this time, so while I think itd be good to wrap up twsitd, I'm not sure I want it to be in CF if that's how it would go
@@skyblade57 not to mention Byleth would lack the Divine Pulse + sword of the creator powers after defeating Rhea. So that could be an issue for game play (maybe it'd work as a secret level since you have to "unlock" cf unlike the other 3 routes?)
It's a weird bind; can't defeat twsitd first for their power as allies, Edel and Hubert didn't know where their base was until the javelins of light were used in cf, and a 2 front war (vs the church and twsitd) is not a great idea vs using one as an ally to defeat the other first.
I wish we had more in cf, but I feel Byleth regaining their humanity is a strong story beat to end on (the good ol defeat a god/ dragon).
Nemesis has to be by far my favorite final boss in a Fire Emblem game , he's just a generic Bandit leader just like the ones you fight at the start of every fire emblem game but he was given almost uncontestable power and the backing by an extremely powerful faction to essentially just wreak as much havoc as possible and did just that. There is no argument from him about his intentions he was hired to murder Sothis and did it, he was tasked to lead an army and commit genocide and did it, and when he was revived and kept in stasis for a thousand years his only desire was to take his undead army with him and kick the ass of the woman who killed him.
In a game with dragons and mole people with magic ICBMs its really refreshing that the most influential character in the entire setting was just a really angry dude with a whip-sword.
I disagree on the note that the Javelins of light in Crimson flower were a mistake. Edelgarde is not afraid of Demonic beasts, and so they would not make her feel helpless. Demonic beasts can be spotted by scouts and information networks they are a threat you can fight. The Javelin of light being fired was supposed to demonstrate to Edelgarde that she couldn't fight the Agarthians lest they destroy any cities she controlled.
On top of that though you have the fact that most demonic beasts at the time were likely committed to the war effort. Pulling assets in use out to try and intimidate Edelgarde would have set them back much farther than a single javelin of light.
I definitely agree with the missed opportunity of not including an Agarthan you could recruit. I initially thought one of the dlc characters would fill that void, especially since some of the main support conversations stress the whole "you can't paint everyone with the same brush" involving Duscur, and having an Agarthan that does not share the views of TwSitD would have expanded on that, instead of doubling down on "nah, the mole people are all unrepentant evil monsters! They don't count."
Personally, I don't mind the Agarthans being objectively evil. We already have the sympathetic, morally grey antagonist with Edelgard (or Rhea, depending on which way you go). Not every villain needs to have some tragic backstory or even a valid argument.
I guess if you wanted to add some nuance, there could be a way to kill off Thales and Cornelia right before or after the time skip and frame the war as their deaths being too late to stop the events they set in motion, highlighting their status as underlining cause for trouble and how even in death, they still cause misery to Fodlan.
Maybe the real reason Thales nuked Arianrhod was so that Empire didn't reverse-engineer their tech.
Since we know at the very least Cornelia had Titanus there.
Solon: Underrated. Pretty good villain. I personally wish we could have snuck in one more fight with him in the story. Maybe during the monster chapter.
Thales: Lame. Don't find him interesting or entertaining. I've seen more than one blind playthrough confuse him with Solon which says alot about his memorability lol.
Kronya: Wasted potentinal. Didn't get enough screen time.
Cornelia: Traded in an interesting or entertaining personality for a bigger chest. Feels like devs realized they wasted their first female Agarthan so they added another one. I also hate that we never see her Agarthan/True form.
About recruiting one of the slitherers, I think Kronya would've had the prefect chance in chapter 10.
After being swallowed by the spell of Zahras, Byleth finds Kronya there as well, and you are given the choice to leave her there or to save and recruit her. I think she would've been willing to cooperate with us, as Solon, who she thought was her ally, just used her as a mere sacrifice for the spell moments before.
Very easy edit to make Kronya not an evil clown girl too, when she kills Jeralt she could say something along the lines of, "Sorry old man, but orders are orders." Then no haha im evil >:) lines in the forest of death chapter and boom recruitable Kronya(with potential S support? 👀)
@@kirbyslayer20 down bad
@@kirbyslayer20 I too wish to have coitus with ginger goth clown babe.
I dunno. I mean, her heart was ripped out. It's a bit...difficult to recover from that.
I can't forgive her for what she did to our Dad
They all could have been better:
Kronya having an inferiority superiority complex as shown in Heroes was cool and can be actually befriended and redeemed (surprising, but true).
Solon being capable to get rid of his racism while making researchs with others and befriend them was cool and could have appear more.
Cornelia doesn't have enough screen time and she should have appear more. She was the creepiest villainess !
Thales well....is the big bad ! He should be far more present. I like Edelgard, Rhea, Catherine, Hubert and Jeritza but I feel they almost have all the screentime and Thales as 0.
Myson faces the heroes thrice after a dlc upgrade in all routes but one. Yet he has a generic model and personnality ! This is despite the fact that he's the member of the organisation who has the highest amount of boss battles !
Nemesis isn't part of the group properly but is heavily affiliated with them and also suffers from a lack of screentime and characterization. We only see him thrice in Verdant Wind and once in the other routes.
In other words....THEY SHOULD APPEAR MORE OFTEN IN THE GAME!!!!!!
After Three Hopes, I can't help but feel that while Thales was the leader, Solon and Cordelia were the real brains of TWSITD. Especially since Anaximandros in particular complains that all Thales is good for is barking orders.
I find the Agarthans interesting because they are Fire Emblem's most accurate portrayal of Nazis and other fascist groups, and if you view them as a death/magitech cult that barely understands how its own tech works and is so lost in its own propaganda, then their actions make more sense.
EDIT: About Thales and his interception of Byleth's strike, I always viewed it not as him negating DP, but rather him having a ripple-effect proof memory and being aware that Byleth was going to try and intercept Monica this time.
kronyas confession in FEH supports this, implying that she is, at least partially, a product of agarthan culture. i already got her to 5* lvl 40, so looking up the speech was easy. here it is:
"Just the sight of your face makes me so angry! Can I kill you now, just to get it over with? Please?
Gah! Why not? It would be easy. You're such a weak creature that I'd hardly have to lift a finger.
Fighting alongside you, sharing our victories and defeats... I'm beginning to feel attached to you.
I don't know why. I'm an Agarthan, and you're just a pathetic little worm. It's unthinkable. It's repulsive!
But that's how I feel. So if you won't let me kill you, you'll have to agree to be my plaything. Forever. All right?"
so... still an unrepentant psycho, but there are hints that she grew up in a sort of "master race" environment, where they believe only they deserve any rights. kronya hates the fact that she begins to develop feelings towards a so-called inferior person, and seems conflicted
Something i have to point out: you forgot to mention their actions in the leicester alliance, since it's heavily implied that they are the ones who forged the document that divided the kingdom, which resulted in the creation of it and their aid in the assassination of claude's uncle with house gloucester
Time to get the foods and drinks for this one.
I think at this point, I'm sick of FE going, "Surprise! There were real bad guys manipulating things behind the scenes and if that never happened, everyone would be friends!" Like they can't just tell the story of actual war where there isn't really a real bad guy. Nope, a bunch of the games are just, "No one ever fights each other in these worlds unless a mastermind makes them!"
I'm just tired of every game doing it. Fates did it, Shadows of Valentina did it, I'm pretty sure the first game in the west did it. Hell, the game that revived the series, Awakening did it.
Can they just not tell grounded stories?
To be fair, this is a stable of almost every Fire Emblem game with the most popular ones having always used that trope. From Gharnef to Manfroy, to Nergal to Formortis, up to Lehran and now to Thales.
Getting rid of that archetype is very hard and only one Fire Emblem game has it and it is not quite the most popular game;FE Binding Blade.
@@basilofgoodwishes4138 But you can't really tell the same story every game without it getting stale. A twist isn't a twist if you expect it because they've done it 12 times before.
And on a personal note, it makes me unable to take any of the stories seriously. It's a really childish view of war where no one would ever have a reason to fight so some manipulator has to show up, sometimes out of literally nowhere, and give the story reason. It's makes the story very ungrounded, and hard to relate to. Tough times causing hardship that force former friends or countrymen to go to war with each other in order to protect what they each hold most dear? Relatable. Dragons, or cyberpunk wizards, turning people evil and making war happen because plot? Puts me to sleep.
I’ve always assumed that Dimitri survived Duscar because Glenn kept him safe until Gilbert arrived. After that, Thales who wasn’t in the kingdom anymore, couldn’t assassinate Dimitri without revealing Duscar wasn’t a rebellion. Plus, Dimitri’s death would have made Rufus king, possibly causing him to pull his act together and make Faeghast a more stable empire and a larger threat to the slithers.
I like the Agarthans because, like you showed, they do have unique and interesting lore about who they are and why they exist. However, I don't like them overall because, just like Fates, they're an easy way out: Another exclusively chaotic evil faction pulling all the strings, when the writers could have used that time to develop the stories of all four routes further.
yeah having a secret "true villain" behind the scenes cheapens alot of character interaction and motivations. Why bother writing a morally Gray story if you're just gonna cop out at the last second and go "jk lol actually these evil wizard guys did it". Dumb as hell. 😂
Do you think that 3H could exist without TWSITD, or do you think the Slitherers could be improved?
@@kaffka9221 Both ways. You could remove the Slitherers and Azure Moon and Crimson Flower stay mostly the same, but if TWSITD is important to the story, then give them more screen time and drop more hints that something's wrong and things aren't as they appear. Hell, it would have helped significantly if the Shamballa Arc was extended, similar to Mystery and Radiant Dawn, where you take 4-5 chapters to approach and descend into their lair; something to build up that part of the world and not make it seem like their lair was literally next door under a manhole cover.
@@n00bplayer72 I don't mind either ways and I feel that TWSITD doesn't have to be morally grey to make themselves work. I personally don't think chaotic evil antagonists are a terrible concept by any means; many villains outside of FE are a perfect examples like Keffka or Yuuki Terumi. Yet I too agree that the Slitherers require more presence and success to make themselves relevant and not forgetful. Then again, they are called TWSITD, not "Those Who Waltz in the Streets."
I'm not a massive fan of TWSITD, but at the same time - do they really use them as an easy out? The war still happens through understandable reasons based on the beliefs of the Lords, and there's no Golden Route where they take the easy way out and just have everyone unite against the big bad TWISTD a la Fates Revelation (admittedly Three Hopes might wind up as that, but I really hope it doesn't).
The only thing TWISTD really does to set stuff in motion is carry out Crest experiments on Edelgard (which is the spark that triggers her hatred of Crests and the nobility), but I think that's a pretty acceptable use of them, since Edelgard's actions and beliefs after that point are still presented as her own responsibility.
I don't think that the Agarthans are cartoonishly evil. They just needed some more explanation narrative wise because otherwise you have to go around reading books and shit in game in order to find out enough information to paint the picture
Suggestion: it would help a lot if, when introducing characters into the detailed explanations, you put a picture of the character up with their name written onscreen. I know that I had a lot of trouble keeping all the players separate. Just the name written down in correlation with the face would help a lot in recalling the events.
There are some TWSITD enemies in the final Throne Room Map on the Verdant Wind path that have names, and I've always wondered why they were given names and what the purpose of that is. Thanks for making this one!
While TWSITD works better than everything to do with Valla, I'm still sick of FE games having the bad guys be a secret and entirely different group of people than who you've been fighting the whole game. I think this mostly hurts Verdant wind, since you basically fight for the Church and not really for establishing the Alliance/Almyra as the preeminent power, that's more a consequence of the Kingdom and Empire leaving a power vacuum at the end.
Feels like only Silver Snow should have had you actively fight TWSITD
Personally I don't think that the Agarthans being comically evil is necessarily a bad thing. They essentially lost everything, were forced underground bound to never see light again, it makes sense to me that they would feel nothing but hatred towards the church (since it is run by Nabateans) and use the humans as pawns and regard them as lesser beings (highlighting their hubris mentioned in the lore).
My problem is that, as said in the video, some of their action don't make sense, maybe are caused by their hubris since they think they are the most powerful faction, but they could've been handled better; they are also criminally underutilized despite being one, if not the most, important faction in the game. The lack of supports/chapters/paralogues/whatever doesn't do them justice and this causes the player to not be intrigued by them and regard them as cartoonishly villans which, for a game that puts an emphasis in revealing what lies behind appereances, a big letdown.
I really hope that 3 hopes will handle them better and explore Fodlan's history and secrets even more.
And then we get Engage which has a story analysis that could be summed up as: "Fell Dragon bad, kill it."
I feel like TWSITD are kinda brain dead. For example, Edelgard as the FE tells Thales that TWSITD "have no place" in the world she wishes to create and Thales just shrugs it off. And in the Crimson Flower ending, Edelgard and company destroy them. They had no contingency plan for Edelgard turning on them.
Tru tru tru
Yeah they held a massive idiot ball.. they are responsible for killing her siblings and mother and they ruined her kingdom as well.. you think it'll Edelgard would be more focused in wipong then out instead of about caring about Conquest.. just imagine edelgard ratted them and revealed their existence the Church of seiros.🤣🤣🤣🤣 it would be a worldwide of massive manhunt to wipe out the Argathneans
Those moles may be cartoonishly evil but damn if they dont have some good lore.
It's a shame that the first Argathan who reveals themselves is the only one who was putting in the effort of maintaining their cover, not just shapeshifting and calling it a day.
I wished we had more interesting key Agarthan players in 3 houses. Solon villain-wise was the best one and most interesting, Cornelia being second, Thales would be 3rd being a hit or miss (depending on the route) and finally Kronya being the weakest/least interesting Agarthan.
I really would've loved to see an Agarthan character as a Bow Knight wielding a regalia bow that's sorta similar like the Oliphantier class from Echoes. However, this one was responsible for the death of Duke Oswald's heir, or having an active role during the massacre in Duscur.
Cornelia was quite a good minor antagonist considering she only really got 1 chapter of screen time, only missed opportunity was not showing us what her agarthan appearance was (aka cleobulus)
Great video!
Another theory I'd love to see is who the hell is the teacher who Byleth replaces at the beginning because I felt like that was never addressed again in the game.
That would be a cool vid! (Hopefully he sees yout comment)
My headcanon is that it was Acheron. He's the only character portrayed to have that degree of cowardice (of abandoning his students in what's essentially a diagnostic test because some bandit attacked)
Because it was never meant to be addressed. It was a one and done thing from the start, the only people who care are Edelgard stans who subscribe to the "replace the teacher" theory to try and whitewash their precious Edelgard's actions. The ones who pretend their waifu can do no wrong and totes didn't actually try to have Dimitri and Claude assassinated, only to nearly get killed herself because the bandits didn't know she was actually their employer.
@@azatheeverchosen7615 idk if the replace the teacher theory makes her not a flawed character, its just a more interesting morally gray thing than "one of the house leaders is just evil and does evil dumb things constantly lol"
@@user_.b The assassination theory was never "evil dumb things for the sake of evulz hurr hurr" tho. It *WAS* morally grey. If you really wanna get into this, simply scaring off a teacher isn't morally grey at all since if true his life was never in danger.
After Three Hopes came out, I was shocked to find out Thales existed during the battle between Nemesis and Serios.
There's an Overly Sarcastic Productions Trope Talk video about "pure evil," and how it gets a bad rap for being shallow, or (snrk) unrealistic, even though it has legitimate narrative uses. Even though it is indeed uncharacteristic of Fire Emblem games to employ the trope of antagonists (tertiary though they are) with zero redeeming qualities whatsoever, if anything all that does is make it a refreshing change of pace from the norm! All told, I have to agree with your conclusion that, while not perfect, this rare shot at it was indeed executed quite well.
Problem is that Fire Emblem always had these type of villians, from Gharnef,Medeus, Manfroy, Loptyr, Narcian, Sonya, Nergal,Ashnard, Petrine, Jarold, Lekain, Gangrel, Robin's father, that violent dude from Fates, Iago and Anankos.
Regarding Dimitri's survival in the Tragedy of Duscar, yeah, it's 100% possible that he just survived by accident. I totally see that the plausible explanation.
But isn't an alternative explanation that Patrica didn't want her step-son to die and ordered his survival? I find it very hard to believe that Patricia truly did plan to kill her husband but what I find even harder to believe is that she would let Dimitri die. In fact, I even go as far as to say that it's impossible she would orchestrate Dimitri's death.
And again, this is all just an alternative explanation. Dimitri's survival could have just been a random accident and even then I'm not connived that the real Patrica tried to kill the King. She could have totally be repealed by those who Slither in the Dark or Cornelia might have just lied about all of it. She told Dimitri this "true story" in the same speech where she said Patrica never loved Dimitri which is categorically false so it's hard accept anything she says as true when she verifiably lies in the same conversation.
The Agarthans, in my opinion, simply weren't a necessary addition to this game. They were completely unnecessary and were only added to make a more cliche villain/antagonist group to balance out the morally grey of both Edelgard and Rhea. Without the Agarthans, then Edelgard and Rhea could have been allowed to serve as antagonists on opposite routes (with Edelgard as the villain for 3 routes, and Rhea as the villain for CF alone). But because the Agarthans exist, both Edelgard and Rhea get an unfortunate moral pass, so to speak. They are made as less bad simply because the Agarthans are far worse, and the Agarthans are the main cause of almost everything bad in 3H. They have a hand in almost everything, and that's not the best way to tell a story when you have morally grey characters like Edelgard and Rhea already.
Rhea's entire tragic past is because of the Agarthans and Nemesis (plus the 10 elites). Their existence gives Rhea the impetus to act, which unfortunately leads to her subjugation of humanity to prevent future war and bloodshed. Similarly, Edelgard also has a tragic past which is the fault of the Agarthans and their experimentation upon her and her family. The Agarthans fueled the fire of Edelgard and gave her the tools needed to engage in warfare. She's also their symbol as the Flame Emperor, who was meant to wield the sword of the creator.
The Agarthans can still exist in the past for Rhea's backstory, but don't include them in the present timeline of the game. Without the Agarthans, you could have had a properly morally grey conflict of Edelgard vs Rhea and the church without Edelgard having to rely upon genocidal psychopaths, so Edelgard doesn't have to be complicit in such atrocities. Similarly, you could have Rhea and her own trauma in the past, but not have the Agarthans exist in this day and age. Thus it's just a moral conflict between Edelgard vs Rhea, with Dimitri and Claude pulled into it when Edelgard invaded both of their nations. The Agarthans ruin Edelgard as a character in many ways, and it hurt the narrative as a whole.
@L.N.
i think they are also there so that edelgard would have more of a fighting chance
since it was only because of them rhea is able to be taken down in 3/4 routes
though its rather telling that for nations that rhea protect to be threaten you would a underground secret super advanced society to make it so the a empire to stand up to rhea....
@@chongwillson972
I have a few responses to that.
A) Edelgard aligning with the Agarthans, who are essentially genocidal mole people and who torture innocent people, are bad allies to create simply for Edelgard to have any victory. That's a bad thing, and the devs could have given her much better allies if they wanted her to have allies at all.
B) there isn't really an explanation for why Rhea was caught in SS, AM and VW but was not caught in CF. After all, the situation was exactly the same with Edelgard declaring war and invading the monastery. The only difference is that Byleth was with Edelgard in CF, but Byleth somehow falls into that crack in the ground on every route pre time skip. Why didn't they catch Rhea here also? There isn't really much explanation in game, so we just kinda hand wave that Rhea wasn't caught on CF so that Edelgard has a rival to fight.
@@l.n.3372
"B) there isn't really an explanation for why Rhea was caught in SS, AM and VW but was not caught in CF. After all, the situation was exactly the same with Edelgard declaring war and invading the monastery. The only difference is that Byleth was with Edelgard in CF, but Byleth somehow falls into that crack in the ground on every route pre time skip. Why didn't they catch Rhea here also? There isn't really much explanation in game, so we just kinda hand wave that Rhea wasn't caught on CF so that Edelgard has a rival to fight."
that one is rather easy, rhea decide not to risk her self as much and was never dogpiled by those giant beasts, she just ran away instead of risk fighting...
@@chongwillson972
That could be true but remember that part 1 of CF ends with Rhea as the immaculate one roaring at Edelgard, Hubert and Byleth. So she's definitely on the front lines. But you're right, she could have just flown away to Faerghus immediately afterwards.
For all of Three Houses' gameplay-related flaws (monastery's too large, activity points and can-only-act-on-Sundays calendar system are _waaay_ too restrictive, gender-locked classes, best mage class is female-only despite Linhardt being an amazing male mage), I do have to admit that it does have the best lore and overall story out of pretty much the entire series.
I just wish the academy half of the game wasn't so _goddamn repetitive_ - that alone makes replaying the game seem way too tedious to bother doing.
Probably they couldn't kill Dimitri in the Tragedy of Duscur. He's a monster, after all.
Wow this a long video
I do still find it amusing that you can sum this game's backstory as "molemen versus reptilians" :p
You know, it will be interesting to see if we get any new interesting lore in FE: Three Hopes. Even if it's an alt universe, Like Age of Calamity, all of the lore up to the point divergence should be the same.
On Pan, random theory I just had is that he isn't an Agarthan, he's actually the tactician from FE7, Blazing Sword. You know, the one that showed up helped Lin and Eliwood and then just vanished without a trace? There's literally no evidence for this, and Pan is probably an Agarthan plant like you suggested, it's an interesting idea.
Considering that Elibe literally has a place called Nabata (which is the source of my headcanon that Elibe and Fodlan are connected somehow), I don't think your that far off.
Almost all of the villains in Fire Emblem games are terrible. Either Saturday morning style villains or sadistic evil ones that are evil for the sake of the plot along with character troupe’s. Fire Emblem is no different from Shonen animes in this regard. The main protagonist are typically always blue haired male characters with a legendary sword. With the final bosses being either a Emperor, Dark Sorcerer or Dragon. Criticizing one FE game on this is basically talking about all of them.
Nergal isn't evil for the sake of the plot though. He's evil because after making use of Dark Magic in order to find his wife who was taken from him during the scouring he was corrupted and now has completely forgotten all about his original goal in the first place. FE has its tragic villains, that are more than just comically evil, they have actual motives that or some kind of tragedy to leads them to become who they are. The Agarthans are probably some of the most shallow, even in their own game simply because they are just supremacist's for the sake of it.
In my opinion, while I understand that the game tells you that "in war, no one is right or wrong", I think it's good that the Agarthans are so clearly evil by their own arrogance and seek of power. That contrast helps to ease and "understand" the conflicts the four nuclear figures of Fodlan are engaged in, because every reservation you have against Edelgard's, Dimitri's and Rhea's actions (and Claude to an extent) you can often sympathize by saying "the actions of TWSITD are what made them do this". Humans tend to look for someone responsible of any problem, someone to put the blame on, and since the Agarthans fill that role, we can see the rest of the cast in a more rational way. Just imagine, if we already have arguments about how Rhea is just an oppressive liar, or how Edelgard is just a violent madwoman, etc., now imagine how it'll be if the Agarthans were not here to be this blatantly evil party.
I'm surprised you didn't mention Myson (the Agarthan leader in BL's endgame and Yuri/Constance's paralogue, as well as a named enemy in the Shambhala raid) at all, as he does have a few voiced lines. I guess he's a sort of middle ground between Thales and Solon to some extent, as he has Thales's cunning (the plots he's involved in usually work out to some extent) and Solon's lack of morality in exchange for ensuring results (his "experiment" with the thieves attacking Duke Gerth to turn them into Demonic Beasts does work out) so I suppose he's not really worth mentioning. He didn't even get a unique portrait, instead just getting the generic Warlock portrait instead. I'd like to know more about him, but they gave him a lackluster amount of screen time.
The Agarthans are the best example in the game of the scenario writers' inability to properly write mystery and intrigue. A mystery is useless as a device if there's no reveal, and there are very few reveals in the game. If a mystery isn't revealed, it's not really a mystery. It's just missing information. The writers somehow thought that simply not telling the player things was a good way to create intrigue, but it isn't. At a certain point players just stop caring, because if they'll never find out, then it's not worth it to think about. It makes it seem like we're just not supposed to care about the Agarthans at all, and while I don't think that was really the original intent, it's the way I think most players feel. They might matter, but the game doesn't want to make them matter by actually telling us about them.
I disagree with that. By not revealing all information about the setting, they create a world which is bigger then the game that takes place in it. Otherwise a world feels like it whole purpose is for the current events to take place in which in m opinion destroys any kind of wonder or mystery. And that was quite the intent, in multiple interviews the developer say that they purposefully left the player in the dark about events and locations (like e.g. the dagda-Adrestian war, the tragedy of duscur, the agarthan-nabatean war, almost everthing regarding almyra...) to create a setting that feels bigger then garreg-mach. Which I think they suceeded in. The fact that we still are theorising about the lore kind of proves that.
@@xargonanaris2516 There's certainly nothing wrong with having certain mysteries that remain, especially if they don't have much relevance to the main plot. Knowing exactly what happened with Brigid and Dagda, for instance, doesn't matter to the main plot, so it can just be interesting side lore and not be elaborated on. However, the Agarthans are main characters in the plot. They're kind of the reason why everything is happening. Thales and Solon are main villains of the story. But there is nothing really revealed about them. And that's a huge problem. Maybe we don't need to know everything about Shambhalla and how it came to be, but knowing Thales' background, as a major villain, is very important. The fact that it's heavily implied that he's posing as Arundel but is never actually confirmed in game is a gigantic problem. I mean, imagine if the identity of the Flame Emperor was never revealed and it was just kind of hinted at. Would the fact that Edelgard was posing as the Flame Emperor in part one matter? No, it wouldn't matter at all. But since we know that she did that, it matters quite a bit. The same can be said for some of Edelgard's motivations, Claude's background and parentage, and a host of other things in the game. They *should* matter, but for some reason the writers decided to make them "mysterious" and so now they don't. The entire game shouldn't be "interesting side material." We should be allowed to know things and have things confirmed to us, otherwise we will stop caring about them.
@@Arkholt2 ...I think this comes down to your own preferences. I found Claude's background & Thales's identify to be written directly enough. Edelgard's motives also are well explained... but the majority of people don't grasp how important dragon blood is in the story & that Edelgard is acting a lot like Rhys & Nemesis because of her crests, so I do think if a more sorted explanation of its impact would be nice.
I mean it’s not like people can have a civilized conversation to talk out their problems.
…we gotta have all sorts of contrived conflicts and irredeemable villains because there wouldn’t be a story… or any gameplay.
I wonder how a diplomacy mechanic would even work in FE.
Technically, diplomacy is attempted in Azure Moon once Dimitri regains his senses and is no longer focused on revenge. However, Edelgard declines and so the battle continues.
@@josephinefeng3990
Haha… because *of course* she does.
@@Deoxys_Used_Mimic It makes sense. Peacefully resolving the conflict would not allow for the world she desired since there would be no way Dimitri would go against the church. And the world she wanted to create could not coexist with the church.
@@josephinefeng3990
The ends don’t justify the means.
Remember that when Dimitri asks why she keeps killing people (Black Eagle Route) she responds with (paraphrase): “Then why do you keep killing in retaliation to reclaim your land?”
Imagine fighting a bully and the bully’s justification for their actions is “Then why do you keep punching back?”
I’m sorry, your nation’s leader is a moron and a hypocrite if they honestly believe they have the right of it.
Thank you so much for the Solon defence man. I may be the biggest fan of the guy and he gets so overlooked for how he behaves towards Claude, and genuinely manages to be more memorable and successful than any of his peers. He deserves his title and man I hope he's somehow playable in Three Hopes :c
#SolonSupremacy
thales/arundel: "looks like arundel suddenly stopped donating to the church at this point in time"
kronya/monica: "she seems a bit too cheerful considering the circumstances"
unknown/cornelia: "her personality and preferences changed all of a sudden"
solon/tomas: "what the... tomas was an impostor this whole time?"
he was certainly the most successful at maintaining his cover. i feel that warrants a mention
I love the videos that go so in-depth about FE3H lore. Maybe the 3 hopes game will go more into the history of TWSITD.
Your videos always make me wish 3H was a BIT more consistent. There's so much potential that just never gets fully utilized. Heck, most of the stuff at the start of this video I totally missed because I didn't bother replaying the entire game again with all the DLC characters.
I feel like I've grown an unfair dislike of 3H, mostly because of fatigue, but your videos still remind me what I enjoyed about the game to begin with.
(And also at the same time make me feel like any attempts I make to explain literally anything in FE is pointless because you're just so much better at research and presentation lol)
I personally find that Rhea is my favorite villain in Three Houses, which is one reason why I like Crimson Flower the most.
She has a tragic backstory and good intentions behind her morally questionable actions (not that Edelgard would know the entire story or care).
She has a number of interesting relationships with other characters, which is why it's a shame she can only support with Byleth. Of course it's somewhat justified given she keeps distance from others as Archbishop.
From a story perspective, she's effectively built up as an antagonist, and doesn't debut at the last minute like Nemesis, Berserk!Rhea and to some extent, Edelgard's Hegemon form. From a gameplay perspective, she's a challenging final boss- not too easy like Hegemon Edelgard or Nemesis nor overly hard like Berserk!Rhea.
Some people complain about Crimson Flower(and to some extent, Azure Moon) not including the war with the Agarthans, but I find that it makes the most sense to end on a climactic note with the battle against Rhea.
I hate Crimson Flower but, unlike some other Rhea fans, I agree that she's at her best in that route. I love seeing her go full "Seiros" and don't think its either out of character or unjustified.
@@daz1543 crimson flower is my favorite route.
@@jkarma3356 Abyssmal taste friend, but thats ok you can have bad opinions
@@daz1543 you're the one with bad opinions dude.
@@daz1543 yep, seeing rhea go all out for the sake of protecting what little family she had left broke my heart what makes CF shine. I'm sure CF would be more appreciated by fans if it was longer and had Edelgard face more accountability and reasoning for her lies, deception and hypocrisy.
The goal of TWSITD was to get the player to cheer for outright genocide for the first time in the series. IS was like, "We made the player feel bad fighting dragons in FE6 and 7 and such, so let's just go and make a group of people that will be fun to outright slaughter."
My issue with the Agartheans has more to do with them being comically evil and it not being addressed as seriously as the rest of the events in the story. Edelgard missing them in her major plotline and the explicit dodging of exactly pointing out their several hands in SEVERAL DIFFERENT genocides outside of throwaway lines really made it feel like a huge lack of self awareness. Creating a group of "super duper evil with no nuance" people and then not actually having the heart to fully detail and unpack their evil actions makes it feel like it was a "Rhea/Edelgard trap card" for defending them and not a genuine analysis of facism, war crimes, and genocide. It's also the issue that I had with the lack of focus put on Dedue regarding the Duscur genocide. It feels like it's a trap card for when they want it, but it's never actually used.
The tragedy of Duscur and the genocide of the Nabeteans is essentially the entire inciting action in EVERY route yet these events are used as set dressing but never when imo it's necessary to add nuance. Nobody in CF even mentioned Duscur iirc, despite it being legit the establishment centerpiece of Dimitri and Dedue. It's also one of the actions that the Empire, Western Lords, and TWSITD committed that ended in genocide and opportunistic pillaging. And it's also likely that these events took place under the rule of replacements from their ranks, meaning that the racism, genocide and pillaging of their country was a reward that the imposters themselves benefitted from, implying that the genocide WASN'T a bug but a feature. The false flag wasn't just to escape the accusation but so that the mole racists who were hiding in the Kingdom's ranks could benefit. None of these possibilities are brought up in base game, despite them not being insane stretches by any means, and that's a problem. That's a fumble on their end.
Yet when Edelgard and Rhea and even Claude go after TWSITD they just spout vague platitudes about how they're "old guys" and not the genuine pretty capitalizable fear of mole racists who orchestrated a handful of false flags and MULTIPLE genocides. Bc they like to dance around the actual descriptor of "mole racists who commit genocide". Having Facism TM as a villain is fine, but not when you dodge out of fully describing the acts that they committed or spending time to put an emotional highlight on their victims. A lot of TWSITD's actions essentially boiled down to optional crimes that aren't even attributed to them unless you dig deep into the story and aren't blinded by unreliable narration from several cast members. Having such a blatant comic book villain mixed with a story that is too shy and nuanced to actually be rough on them is grating.
My largest issue with the Agarthans is that they serve no narrative purpose. It feels that Kusakihara decided mid-way into the story: "Massacres? War? Famine? No! People can't do that! But these guys can!". They are a scapegoat for all of the evils in modern Fodlan, which drives me mad. There are nations and peoples driven to murder each other for little more than the chance they do not retaliate in a losing war. Are we to believe that they do not exist in Fodlan?
I like the description of Hubert's feat at 37:27 - the "in some unexplainable way". For a quick detail: These missiles are not shot. They are dropped. They lack fire to propel them, and are guided upon entry. Considering that Agartha, prior to her first war, had skyscrapers, it is not unimaginable to assert that these are not missiles that are launched; they are orbital missiles that are dropped and guided. Hubert's feat of not only tracking them, but *discovering* Agartha's location is literally an impossible act made possible by him achieving limited Theosis. So, it is not the stupidest thing Arundel could do; it is made silly because there is, quite literally, no way that Hubert could have found the base, but he did anyway.
I think the purpose of the missile is two-fold. If we are under the impression that Hubert cannot channel Sothis, then it was likely done for intimidation, but also to prove something. Edelgard is their current savior. However, that knowledge of Crest experimentation is done. Everything they are working toward can, as far as Agartha cares, can be swept under the rug and forgotten, like most of Fodlan's history. Agartha have the technology and research now to do as they please.
However, when Hubert channels an intellect greater than Thales of Miletus, the story falls apart. It goes from being a clever tactic to stupid.
While I don't agree the game completely supports your hypothesis of how the missiles work (they are unexplained magic), this was a good post anyways and highlights a lot of the issues with this plot point, despite being a single line from Hubert. The importance of a narrative inconsistency or plot hole does not necessarily (or rarely ever does) correspond with the amount of time it takes up in the story.
I didn't look at when this video was made so I was like 'just call them Shez and Arval, why are you making this weird?' Silly me, it wasn't revealed yet.
These guys are the dumbest villains in all of gaming. They COMPLETELY destroy the ENTIRE POINT of the whole "There is no good or evil in this game"!
It should be noted that not all documents in the Shadow Library are genuine, and referring to the Agarthans as "Those Who Slither in the Dark" is a huge red flag, since that's very distinctly Hubert's name for them. Of course, that raises the question of why Hubert would introduce such a document and why Seteth would consign it instead of destroying it outright. It is also unclear why, in the proposed scenario, the rebels would even need more Relic-like weapons given that they actually held the originals, nor is it explained where such weapons would disappear to after the rebellion succeeds. People often forget that the war fell into a stalemate in CF for a reason. In the lore, the Relics are that strong. And there just being a stash of Crest stones in Faerghus actually makes sense, given that it was Nemesis's land during the War of Heroes, so it's entirely possible he got some loot hidden away that wasn't expropriated properly be the Church in the aftermath, especially given that the Empire didn't achieve total victory in that war.
Also, the fact that neo-Agarthans constantly have to work through human interests while being so cartoonishly evil leads me to believe the story would be better off without them, with all parties having full agency. The absolute latest moment when neo-Agarthans legitimately contributed to the plot was with propping up Nemesis, and there would've actually been no difference in the course of everything else if they got wiped out by Seiros then and there. If anything, Edelgard's C support hints that Duke Aegir was at least somewhat informed of the Crest experiments, so it's not too outlandish to suggest that such works could've actually been done by Imperial researchers in secret, chasing the power and legitimizing influence of Crests with no actual regard for the superstitions of their divine origin. Playing Goddess, if you will.
The neo-Agarthans aren't smart, they're just playing into an open goal, with the system Seiros inherited from Nemesis already predisposed towards working for their ends. They are terrible at infiltration to the point that Dimitri of all boars can see problems with their guises, but their technology is an outside context problem and shields them from proper scrutiny. Solon, while the best of the lot, still gives himself away for no purpose in Remire. The way things go so well for them makes it look like they're genius manipulators, but in reality they're just taking credit for the corruption inherent in the system, and their "grand plot" is really just a series of events that are only connected by Fodlan's broken feudalism and religion. People often argue that Edelgard misblames the Church for the neo-Agarthan misdeeds, but it is ultimately the Church that gives them such a solid base to work with.
It also seems strange to me to take such an issue with the bombing of Arianrhod while glossing over the way Thales got caught completely off-guard on a low-priority mission in AM, to the point of the Javelins never launching in that route because the one guy who could launch them got punked so hard he forgot to teleport out. And Arianrhod isn't even the stupidest thing Thales does in CF. That would be him staying in Fhirdiad to watch the show instead of going to Shambhala to launch missiles the moment the fighting is done. Neo-Agarthan competence is neo-Agarthan propaganda.
Also, we know exactly nothing about the neo-Agarthans' endgame, what they would do to the "lesser beasts" after completing the Nabatean genocide. And this is in part because we don't need to know: they're evil and they get stopped on all routes, the end. This is in stark contrast to every other contemporary force, and not in a good way.
P.S.: speaking of a recruitable neo-Agarthan and 3 Hopes, there was that shot of what looked like Monica in the trailer...
Shouldve been a slitherer in the ashen wolves. Sneaked into the underground at least
I've always thought Nemesis wasn't originally evil (or at least he thought he was doing good), but somehow went insane over time. I'm not saying TWSITD wasn't evil, they're completely shitheads. But that all may just be my bias against the Nabeatians speaking
Nemesis was the one who caused a mass genocide against the Nabateans so idk why you’re blaming them lol
@@reversequeen838 @Reverse Queen yeah, idk. I just thought he thought he was doing the right thing, and not just trying to gain power. To them, a previously unknown god-like race who are superior to humanity in nearly every conceivable way just showed up out of nowhere and became the dominant force in Fódlan. They basically invalidated humanity and replaced the common religion, dragons took humanity's place (and some of their culture) in an instant, I don't think it would be a stretch to say that many of the people would see it like an alien invasion and a threat to the human race. I'm not saying what Nemesis did way right or moral, but I can understand why he would take the path he did. Even the lyrics of God Shattering Star (or at least my interpretation of it) seem to imply this
Galaxy Brain: Dimitri did die and was replaced by an agarthan per Talus's plan, but at some point, he got bumped on the head and forgot. The psychosis is caused by the split between his assumed identity and his initial slitherer identity, *brain tap*