Finn vs. Mayfeld: How to do a former trooper right (Character Comparison Battle)
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- Опубліковано 29 вер 2024
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I never really thought about how weird the characterisation of Finn was with him going from being paralysed by guilt and sadness at one trooper death! To murdering hundreds of troops and cheering it on!
Hundreds?? Man he helped blow up a planet sized military based, assuming the planet was inhabited? He helped kill BILLIONS or MORE, assuming it was mostly desolate and it was just certain massive bases on the CONSERVATIVE end he killed 10s of millions
At best he's Hitler+, at worst he's super ultra mega Hitler. Which would be pretty easy to disconnect and not think on too seriously if not for the fact Disney for SOME reason decided to make his entire origin story being the crippling guilt and pain of a single fellow trooper dying. And then go on to have him gleefully and pridefully slaughter MILLIONS???? WHAT???!?!?
Would have been better if he was cold from the start. All he knows is "by any means necessary." But he knows that what the First Order is doing is wrong. He turns, not because a buddy dies but because he discovered his moral code.
He Dosent shoot the civilians with the others so he separates himself from them at that point, I think the video failed to realize that
@@Raymal100 or he becomes super anti fighting because he relates too much to the other side tho that would have probably ended with a "everyone are friends love peace not war" kinda ending
@@Brothermanbillz then proceeds to kill civillians by blowing up a planet, just because it's a military base/planet does not mean there are no civillians inside.
Mayfeld was done so well. I really felt his pain and his regret the small amount he was on screen. But I wish we could’ve seen that more with Finn, especially because he’s my favorite character of the ST. I would’ve loved to have seen him really and truly wrestle with his past and have that motivate him to transform…into a Jedi! (A guy can dream…)
Stormtrooper turned jedi would've been so good. The scene on Jakku literally was the force awakening in him.
Ikr?? Imagine him going through that journey, defecting from the Empi- sorry i mean the First Order. Finding out hes force sensitive, seeking out Luke for training , a threat/enemy to Kylo Ren, a storm trooper turned Jedi that would have been fucking amazing. If only we could’ve gotten that. My man was done so dirty. :( John deserved better
If you think Mayfield was done "so well" you are tripping. He literally complain that stormtroopers weren't treated as more than a resource, with no value as human life. Next act, he scape and kill thousand of stormtroopers with his sniper with no need to do that at all, just to send a message to the empire. What a joke of an arc.
@@lefraunhofer8869 he wasn't perfect, but Finn never even had the regret scene.
@@TheHegetzu Yes, they are both shit.
IMO there's a difference between slaughtering a village and defending yourself against trained soldiers trying to slaughter you, though I agree the celebration and lack of empathy is too much.
it is comical how easy you could have stopped the juxtaposition. One scene where he tries to stop them from shooting at him and he realizes it is futile. A scene where he tries to convince a friend to defect. A scene where he refuses to fire on them for just a moment and sees the cost is either his life or his companions.A single tear going down his face as he guns them down. Being upset after the battle and Poe having to talk to him. IDK really anything other than PEW PEW PEW wOOHOOOO!!!
Finn firing on his fellow troopers becomes more jarring when you watch The Clone Wars, whose finale shows Rex and Ahsoka actively avoiding and regretting killing clones who at that point were literally programmed to kill them.
I actually forgot him being a stormtrooper by the 8th and 9th movie
Love Bill Burr. Have a love/hate/love relationship with Star Wars. Never watched the Mandalorian except on UA-cam just to peek. Glad to hear Bill Burr did his f-ing job in his Star Wars role. Good on him.
the trooper that started finns change, the trooper that was his friend, yeah poe shot that guy
Ol Billy Red Nuts on the big screen
I just realized, Fin abandoning his armor in the desert because it's hot makes no sense... it's an environmentally sealed suit with a low end temperature control in the helmet and chest as well as an air tight seal around the neck.
Great analysis. Tragically when George Lucas sold Lucasfilm he believed he was handing it to a company who would steward the franchise beyond his years. He built this company away from Hollywood because of the corporate influence on filmmaking. Now, life imitating art, a band of “rebels” provide some hope for the Star Wars/Lucasfilm universe. I will continue to support and cheer these “rebels” favreau/Filoni as they hopefully save Lucasfilm.
The thing that impressed me most about the Mayfield scene was that I had NO idea Bill Burr was capable of acting THAT well! Like I'm not saying he's a bad actor but he REALLY brought his A game out in that scene!
Can you imagine if there was an actual plan for the Trilogy, took the time to develop the characters and actually ... cared?
And actually wrote it with character development instead of "insert virtual signal here" or even took the time to follow established lore
What's funny is that there was a plan for the trilogy initially, albeit not a very good one. J.J. Abrams had an intended path for the movies to go but then Rian Johnson was like, "Nah, fuck that" and threw it all out of the window.
@@FalenDragmire Yeah, Abrams had a very loose idea of where things could go but I'm sure it was so vague that even if you tried to follow it it wouldn't end up good. That said, all Rian saw was his chance to "finally do his Star Wars fanfic" (paraphrased; he pretty much confirmed he knew nothing about the universe and was just excited to insert himself into something popular) and ruined any chance of recovering the sequel trilogy.
@@ForeverLaxx Oh I don't think it would have been good by any means. I was just pointing out that there at least was a loose outline for how things could go, but any hope of that was ruined by Rian Johnson wanting to be divisive for division's sake, by his own admission.
That's what the 1970's trilogy was, and then people liked it so more garbage was manufactured to make money from that nostalgia.
Also with the scene with the stormtroopers cheering Mando and Mayfeld when they brought the shipment to base. It brought a human component to the Stormtroopers. Something people could relate to
Still a one-sided characterisation. Stormtroopers laugh and chummy up, but when the orders come in, it's time to shut your trap and light some civilians on fire. Mayfeld being traumatised for losing his comrades is a good story to tell, but the military and police force of an autocratic state not being traumatised by what they had to do as stormtroopers still leaves a lot of unexplored areas that could use some attention, and add a lot of nuance to the story. People do need to be reminded that the Empire was more like nazi Germany, by the way.
@@moscanaveia i'd say it's much more like the Soviet Union than Nazi Germany. But then i don't take propaganda at face value.
@@Zathaghil The Empire was literally inspired by nazi ideology and aesthetics.
True to that, we always see the rebels pulling off something against impossible odds and them celebrating, but this time we see it on the other side and it makes them feel so human
@@moscanaveia they just brain washed lab kids who designed yo batle. i believe they have almost no knowledge about family and stuffs. from their prespective, civilians are all just simple asset to run their goverment.
One sentence says it all:
"In TWO MINUTES of screen-time, we get a better glimpse (behind the stormtrooper helmet) of Mayfeld, than we get in 3 complete movies with Finn."
And the episode as a whole is packed with humanized troopers, them cheering over the succesful transport, an actual celebration and whatnot
Character development is, generally, shoddy in the sequel trilogy. Usually it is either inconsistent or barely present. Finn's development stars off promising and then he is relegated to comic relief. At least he is not tossed aside as unceremoniously as Phasma, or Snoke, or what's-her-name who had the hots for Finn for no reason.
@@chuckhoyle1211 I disagree. Character development was not shoddy, it was non-existent. All jokes aside, you are very correct.
In other words... fuk the sequels.
That's what separates Jon & Dave from Kathleen & her minions. That's the kind of writing you get when you hire writers who write a story full of real characters and not a bunch of crap to push "the message."
I remember Bill Burr, in his podcast, reading a fan's email about the scene with the imperial officer and how it really hit home for that fan because he was a veteran who's commanding officer got many of his own men killed and could not care less.
Do you remember which podcast?
What podcast
@@inzanemonkey0510 Monday Morning Podcast episode from Monday 1/18/21. I misremembered the detail of how many got killed, but it still heavily affected the fan that wrote the email.
@@REYTRACER Monday Morning Podcast episode from Monday 1/18/21. I misremembered the detail of how many got killed, but it still heavily affected the fan that wrote the email.
Yeah then he went that’s fucking beyond me dood Jesus, I just thought of some fucked up shit that made me angry
Gotta love bill burr
Burr and the imperial officer nailed it. I wasn't expecting a scene so intense and well made as that conversation, you kinda wish writing like this were used more often
Bill Burr is just a good actor. You could’ve had that scene with any actor and had them recite the same script but nobody can play a sarcastic smartass like Bill Burr.
I did not know Burr did this and now I'm gonna watch the show
If you want scenes like that watch Daredevil on Netflix. The scenes where its just 2 people who hate each other sitting at a desk are the best scenes from that show.
The real spinoff we actually need. anything with Mayfeld!!
I know this could sound like anybody making the claim but my Dad's a vet, scarred... And yet this scene is what I could realistically see happening if he was in this situation. I've always liked Bill Burr as a comedian, and I've seen him in enough to find him a good actor, but this scene... Holy shit. I've seen these expressions on my Dad's face before.. And he... Got it..
I would’ve expected Finn to be conflicted about killing the troopers that he grew up and lived with for 99% of his life. It’s a bit weird for him to just “oh yeh sure let’s kill some bad guys yay”
Well - and im not arguing with you - this just furthers your point. The entire sequel trilogy was that way. They were total complete utter horseshit. Poe just mysteriously disappears - conveniently the TIE they stole just magically gets sucked into the sand. Poe just magically reappears later with zero explanation. There is zero explanation for why anyone in any of those crapass movies did anything other than make loads of money for bad writers etc. Fin s character was the absolute worst - and that says a lot given the level of crap the movies sunk to - it was a bit weird for him to do everything! Because NONE of it made any sense. And it cant be a surprise because again the movies were total garbage. Trying to figure out any of the characters and why they did or did not do certain things - is a waste of time. Its all weird because the movies were garbage and the people that wrote and developed and directed them - were not interested in storytelling. Sold a lot of merch though. AND - I have no trouble with that. Nothing wrong with selling merch. If the movie or show is actually GOOD.
@@andrewa9895 well to be fair in storytelling it helps to have a PLAN/Rough-draft of what you want to do.
@@andrewa9895 Here’s my opinion is that the Sequels were mid if they were a standalone trilogy, but because it’s all canon and has to fit into the lore and just.. doesn’t it makes no sense in the universe that’s been established..
His defection from the order didn't make sense at all. Indoctrination doesn't work that way. He lived his whole life in that world. Trained every day with these people. It was his life. And yet the first sign of combat he freaks out and defects? And then is okay with killing his friends? You'd think he would be trying to contact his old friends and try to convince them to leave as well but that never happens. Poorly written character and a poorly written movie.
I mean, I also wouldve expected Anakin to not slice off count dookus head and go rougue, because anakin was a Jedi for his litteral entire life
"How bout a toast to operation cinder" might be my fav line in mando. Not because its just a Easter egg but the delivery and context of the scene, plus Bill burr just being himself makes it so good
I don't know if the policy of disney is that games aren't canon, but if they aren't, this scene canonized maybe not just operation cinder, but maybe all the events of the game
@@Praxus42 as far as I know, SWBF2 (2017) is canon and I'm certain Fallen Order is also canon.
What's the easter egg? Is Operation Cinder something that happens in a star wars game?
@@CurryFeatures battlefront 2 campaign. Basically AI palps tells the empire to burn planets with a bunch of lasers shooting from a satellite dish things from space. Kinda like a deathstar, same idea.
Also similar to whatever the hell the first order tried in ep9
@@paveldatsyuk8268 nice one thank you :)
Mayfeld went from being a single-use side quest character to someone I hope we get to see again if the show does continue.
We may not, he "died" in an accident. Remember? I don't.
We don’t need more of him. The scarcity is directly proportional to the value.
His story is complete, no need to bring him back.
Same 👍
😢😅😅😅😅😮😊😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😊8😮09😅😢😢😮
I will always remember that trooper who yells "Traitor!" to Finn, someone would think they wanted to make something like "Finn will be persued from his past", but no, it does nothing, it's just another enemy to kill and that's it
And when you think this was probably the best scene of TFA and that TR-8R is better remembered than Phasma, that's saying something.
@@davidlacoste Ngl lie, I had totally forgot that Pasma character till u mentioned her
@@mariobarbosick How dare you!
After all, "she gets to wear a chrome armor".
@@davidlacoste They even made him playable in Lego Star Wars.
irk like when you open up with Finn the concept that behind the mask these are just people, it makes it really disturbing how easily they kill storm troopers the rest of the movies.
I think the "gotta sleep at night" moment was good too. Ever since the show in the mess hall, him and Din had been in survival mode.
They looked to be in the clear, and could have left it at that. But he chose to take the additional shot that would cripple the whole base. (Admittedly also a plus to the escape, but not crucial)
After the shot, you can kinda see Din reevaluating him from the ground up.
did you not listen to the video or watch the show? he shot the officer for his flippant attitude about a traumatic battle where a lot of his comrades died, not to cripple the base. It was an action based in emotion not logic
@@alexkamrow7901 the shot I was referring to was the one to the ore transports as they were flying away. Please re read. My point was that after he kills the old CO, they were fighting continuously, until they got on slave 1 and Mayfeld made it a point to cripple the base as a final FU.
That was when Din finally had a sec to recalibrate his opinion.
@@alexkamrow7901 You might want to read the comment you're criticising, especially if you're going to use language like "did you not listen to the video or watch the show?"
@@alexkamrow7901 Hey! I'm almost certain you've seen the replies to your comment. How about, instead of hiding, you give some closure to your blunder and apologize. Few things boil my blood more than someone who makes a mistake and just vanishes when they're called out without at least a "my bad".
I'd argue that the Mayfield scene where he shot the officer was the best acted scene in live action Star Wars media.
You gotta be shitting me. Better than "I am your father"? "You were the chosen one"? "I am a Jedi, like my father before me"?
@@Сайтамен yes
@@Сайтамен yes it was a more brilliant and nuanced acting, what you're quoting are just classic lines
That was a damn Great scene! I really felt the tension build until finally he blew up and shot the officer!
Let’s be honest, Star Wars has never had good acting besides Alec Guinness and Williams/Ford. Everyone else was kinda flat (due to the wooden dialogue)
But Bill Burr and the Mando crew are truly the saviors of the franchise. This by far was my favorite Mando episode.
I love how these movies remind us time and time again that Finn is a defector, yet doesn’t have the spine to think of how a defector would act. Ideas alone mean nothing without execution.
Luckily JJ came back for ep9 to show us what defecting storm troopers do, they ride space horses
@@more-reasons6655 Truly riveting writing, definitely makes sense
@@more-reasons6655
That’s just sad. And worst off, it’s a moment that has no weight behind it.
Let's be honest aside from nostalgia all of the disney trilogy has very little weight behind it. The moments that seem to have weight have it because of the ot not because the movies the moments are in.
that's because Finn was first *put there to suit the poster* and then *given a background story*
while Mayfield was first *given the backstory* and then *cast*
Mayfield could have still failed if they had cast a different actor... his scenes wouldn't have had the same "punch"
Finn would have still failed even with a different actor, because the character has nothing for the actor to interpret.
Finn should've had a longer introduction, scenes with his squad or at least having a friend in the stormtrooper corp. Then make him escape the same way but have only Poe shooting up the cargo bay with Finn shocked and maybe reconsidering his decision. And to top it off he should've had a complete mental breakdown in the desert as it was his first proper life/death experience. You can build anything from there. Have him wander into town and being branded the enemy, everyone turning away and maybe only Rey accepting him (maybe that would help her character too, she'd have some emotions unlike what we got). and that would be a cool entry
I disagree. We get way too much exposition lately. A beginners exercise in screenwriting is writing a scene, then striking out a line of dialogue one at a time from the beginning up to the point where you can't follow the scene anymore.
You can hint at the past, explain little bits as they get important. Remember George Lucas had the idea of starting like it was an episode of an established series. Which allowed him to drop lines like "I fought with your father in the clone wars" without any explanation what that means. Same here. Answering all questions is not always better.
@@cl8733 I literally explained a scenario with no exposition at all wdym
@@honilock577 sure you know what "literally" means? Because "literally" you said "longer introduction" and "scenes with his squad".
@@Robert-ms2xs I totally agree. Which is why it is bad writing. But there is no longer introduction needed to fix that, just write him consistently and honour that backstory later. Which is what they never did.
Ddddffggggjkklllltu try y r dr
Edit: I think my 2 year old typed this while I wasn’t looking but ima leave it cuz it’s funny
One more tiny thing I really liked was how when Mayfield hands back the helmet to Din, he also turns his head away, and it reinforces that he is being sincere. Din stares at him in disbelief cos he's shocked by the sudden shift in attitude.
In a few short moments Mayfield makes 3 big redeeming choices.
The fact that this conversation is possible should be ridiculous since Finn was a lead character in a movie trilogy and Mayfeld is a side character in 2 episodes of a TV show
Partially... TV has more time to develop characters than movies and the tv show was for adults, not kids like the films.
@@nathanstender1124 bad argument. Entertainment shouldn’t be looked at that way, age locked and dumbed down. Shouldn’t we want our children to experience good story telling rather than bad storytelling anyways? Their minds are sponges. Let them absorb good things rather than just mush.
Also, 2 episodes compared to 3 movies. The movies had more time in this context.
Just a bad stance to have, a poor excuse all the way around.
@@shaneyy__ I am not saying it should be, I am saying that is how they were made. I agree with you. The worst parts in all of star wars is the kid-centric.
I disagree about the movies had more time than the episodes. IF Finn was a main charact and his development was integral to the overarching trilogy (no matter how poorly it was constructed), yes they would have had more time to do it but he was a secondary character at best and didn't matter to the plots of any of the movies. This is Rey's story and Ben Solo to a lesser extent, and he has little to do with it. They really don't have time in movies to get into non-primary character archs. Mayfield is arguably the main character for 40 minutes (or however long the episode is) and has the time to give depth to the character. That is why tv has better writing in general.
@@nathanstender1124 1.) Finn objectively has more screen time.
2.) That’s the critique. Finn wasn’t made the centerpiece, he was made a centerpiece. That doesn’t suddenly excuse poor writing.
3.) By your logic of Mayfield being the main character for “40 minutes”, Finn and Poe are the main characters in the opening hour of TFA… so… again… more main character time.
This is a poor argument to have and has no bearing to stand on. Abandon it.
@@shaneyy__ Finn is literally the viewpoint character for a majority of TFA, and far from being a 'side' character is essentially the co-protaganist and is in fact the driving force for a great deal of TFAs "plot".
In comparison he has more screen time and dialog than Leia in the original Star Wars. And no one would argue she wasn't a main character.
Even though I do like Finn as a character, I will admit I found it really stupid how Disney made him into a comic relief character. He truly was a missed opportunity to showcase a darker side of the war; I often question why he never felt any remorse towards the lives of his fellow troopers being ended, or how he never made an effort to convert any of his fellow soldiers to the good side.
Now, when I first met Mayfeld in S1, I actually despised him. On the surface, he appeared to be snarky, arrogant, and totally belligerent. But S2 showed us a different side of his character; showing us how he was forced to endure an (frankly idiotic) order that resulted in the loss of countless lives, (including many of his own comrades) really took a toll on him, and changed the way he viewed the world.
I went from loathing his character to feeling a great amount of sympathy for him in just ONE EPISODE. To me, "The Believer" was a stand-out in an otherwise mediocre season, because it showed us how great The Mandalorian can be as a show, when it's not trying to sell merchandise with Grogu cute-bait. He had one of the greatest arcs in the entire show, and is a testament to great character writing. Disney execs should seriously consider taking notes from Favreau and Filoni.
Mayfield performed exactly how he was suppose to. Excellently written character.
@@LordHollow A shame that characters like Cara Dune, Fennec Shand, Greef Karga, and especially Moff Gideon couldn't do the same, because S2 was more concerned with Grogu cuteness than actual character development, like S1 was.
I kid you not, IG-11, Kuill, and (to an extent) Peli Motto were the only other side characters I cared about.
I feel bad for him they really did him dirty playing the stereotypical funny black guy character. Then Disney turns around and touts themselves as being progressive or whatever would rather of watched a movie about him and Poes relationship those 2 on screen had great chemistry.
Rick Famuyiwa wrote that episode, it's Favreau and Filoni who keep writing Grogu-bait and Ahsoka-bait
I’ve always said Agent Kallus was the right was to do a disaffected Empire soldier
You've hit the nail on the head again, Thor. The writers of the sequel trilogy just didn't take the time to let the movies take the time to let us get to know the characters. We know NOTHING about Rey or Finn's motivations before stuff starts blowing up. It's all "mystery box" writing and we NEVER get answers. Just compare TFA to Star Wars. Just by seeing Luke whining about his life we get enough motivation to drive three awesome movies. Think of how slow that feels compared to a movie from the last ten years. But that's what an audience needs. It's so simple.
Funny that, even though Lucas was always flamed by most film critics back in the day for making Star Wars movies that were just fast-paced action with no redeeming qualities, we somehow knew all his characters very well even after the first movie, while the characters in the Disney movies are still a mystery even after an entire trilogy.
It's because they didn't care. They flat out just didn't give a damn
The Finn character had so much potential, and John Boyega is a great actor. Those "writers" absolutely destroyed his characterization.
Doesn’t help that his character went through exactly the same arc in two movies. Then the third movie he was kind of tossed aside as a side character.
NO. Omg how old are you? Dustin Hoffman is a good actor. Ben Kingsley is a good actor. This guy? Really? Dude what do you eat for breakfast… your thoughts come from the sewage
I feel like an effective summation of the sequel Trilogy characters is "exceptional potential ruined by direction and executive mandate" except Kylo Ren, who had radically different problems.
@@Jbs6187 do you actually perform any sort of critical thought, or do you just regurgitate what bags of shit you've been spoon-fed by people pretending to be angry for views?
@@nickmalachai2227 The potential for an ex-stormtrooper character is high. But that's precisely where it ended for Finn. The video hit the nail on the head when it said the escape scene was when his character ended.
Rey might have been really interesting if they hadn't gone to such excruciating lengths to show us how strong and independent she was. What if... When she was in danger, she could run just a little bit faster. Jump a little bit higher and further. The junk salesman is really mean to EVERYONE, but with her... he's a little bit nicer. This isn't a world where ANY human child can survive. But she did. Because she's been using the force all along, and that's why she's so good with it. She developed it innately, out of necessity of survival. Perhaps it's getting too strong for her to control, and she doesn't understand what's happening, and that's why she needs to find a teacher. But no, can't have any depth, it was just sheer girl power or something. Oh look, let's just leave in the Millennium Falcon.
Interestingly enough, Finn's arc in Colin Trevorrow's original script for Episode IX saw Finn becoming the leader of a group of ex-Stormtroopers/First Order defectors, which I think would've led to much more meaningful character development on the part of Finn to conclude the sequel trilogy.
That would’ve made Finn too much of a main character, which is not what Darth Mouse wished for
@@dylannix4289
Darth Rattus
Damn that would have been 1000 times better.
I've said it before, but Finn is the most wasted character in the entire trilogy
Trevorrow's script was not quite finished, but where it took the story and the characters made sense. There is a great comics version of it on the net. Okay, the drawings are not stellar, but they do the job, and the story that came out of Trevorrow's script is so much better that what we got.
I really hope to see more Mayfeld in the future. Bill Burr was phenomenal in Mando S2. But Finn also deserves a second chance at greatness… that storyline should’ve been way better than it actually was…
100% agreed.
Personnally The sequel have f-ckd up so damn BAD . That it is one case where I would not give a second chance . Burn it down and that's it .
Too bad Boyega won't get Disney Plus'd
Ummmm. Finns already fucked up 3 movies. Fourth chance?
No more chances for Finn. He had a whole trilogy. Damage done.
Lets also give credit to the imperial officer! The speech he gives elevates the scene even more
Yeah, that guy was phenomenal.
The Empire improves every system it touches.
And Pascal too. That dude was essentially just sitting there during that scene but his emotions helped us feel it.
Yep, it gives perspective on the kind of people who are part of that system, and why they might persist even after the collapse of it.
This was something that was sometimes explored in the Legends books too.
Richard Brake does a quality bad guy 😄
I feel like Finn should’ve had some sort of moral code where he only shot stun blasts at his fellow troopers. It would’ve been such a small detail but made so much more sense.
Small things like that would have made too much sense for disney. Can't have that, now can we?
stuff like that blurs the line between 'good guy' and 'bad guy'. and we cant have that kind of nuance in star wars. The good guys must ALWAYS be good and righteous with no corruption or inequality whilst the bad guys must be over the top bad guys so that killing them in any and all circumstances is a celebratory action. dont want the smooth brains thinking too much
@@VergilArcanis apparently.
@@Roamingeast we can’t have that in Disney Star Wars*
Like Rex and Ahsoka at the end of clone wars. They explicitly fought their way free of the ship stunning everybody, knowing they were being shot at to kill.
That's one reason why starting a character as a generic or stereotypical as a method for starting characterization can really work well. It's almost immediately believable, it gives a simple, but effective starting platform for developing a character----a platform that the audience can easily notice effectively layered developments from; these developments often deviate from what the audience expects to get from a character in what @schnee likes to call an 'ill-fitting moment' that brings out things about a character never seen before, could be a subtle character trait, hint of backstory, physical strength, emotional weakness, or anything in-between.
Believe it or not, this also applies to comedy:
"We must all start with the believable…
All drama, all comedy… stems from
the believable, which gives us as solid of
a rock as anyone could ask from which
to seek humor, variations on the believable-that is the essence of all humor."
--Chuck Jones
This is the exact reason tropes exist. It allows writers to convey much through use of established concepts, and then either chose to deviate from that, or double down. Tropes are important to writing, but some people conflate tropes and cliches
It makes me happy to see people referencing schnee in other videos, an extremely underrated channel for sure!
Yes, it’s violations of the believable that are half of what’s broken about the so-called sequel trilogy, and “strong female characters”, in the incessant subterfuge Darth KK meddled in these films.
Yeah that part with Finn fires on his fellow troopers while laughing and yelling is the exact point that the ST lost me. He even went and got Poe, who was the guy who shot and killed his friend in the first place that gave him his "awakening". That part and the scene where Leia walks past Chewie to hug a girl she hadn't even met yet. There were smaller scenes I didn't like either but those were two of the worst. Thats when I knew the ST was going to be shit. Most hated TLJ and RoS. I hated TFA too. It's just bad writing.
I agree the writing is bad
(Except TR8R, he was the best character in the ST)
But I really gotta say Stormtroopers in TLJ look so good!
(And yes, if you didn't notice...their helmets changed a bit in TLJ)
My favourite Trooper designs
Sadly the First Order was done dirty. It had potential 😔
Leia ignoring Chewie for a stranger fucked me right off lol
After watching this, it makes me realize that the reason Mayfield mocks Din over wearing the helmet so much is because Mayfield's superiors the storm troopers them as just another helmet, with no face or person or family behind it, and seeing Din so adamant the be seen as just another Mandalorian helmet reminds him of the attitude of those superiors and the friends that were lost behind those trooper helmets. I would also further argue that in Mayfield handing the trooper helmet back to Din it shows his acceptance or Din into his group of friends, or "squad," and acceptance and support of his choices.
I'd say that's more why Mayfield asked Din if theres a difference
Always wear your helmet or never show your face
Stormtroopers are identified by their helmet and should always wear it. While Mando shouldn't be identified so he doesnt show his face
Thanks for your point because its helped me realise the difference that Mayfield was talking about
Honestly, "I'm in charge, Phasma" phrase could actually have a good amount of weight if only we would have even a glimpse of horrible treatment of regular soldiers by the officers of the First Order. Even a flashback of a squad of troopers being bullied by a sarge or a captain would be enough to have this inversion of position in power actually impactful
Disney obviously wanted to play it suuuper safe and they sacrificed a potentially amazing character moment for a gag
you expect disney to write a capable story that's not unicorn and rainbows? Only the folks in dreamworks has the magic nowadays, the rest are just corporate slave pumping out the next big thing.
@@HungPham-qq6me not to justify Disney, but I think it's a problem of the big and popular movie franchises overall. They usually start as a bold, but well done ideas, the audience gets hooked and wants more, and then it goes only downhill from there, as the fear of losing audience makes the studio/the corporation to repeat what has already been done in order to play it safe. The writing becomes repetitive, the plot holes become more obvious, etc. And honestly IDK how this can be averted, except by not being all about money.
@@GalaxyGal- yeah, and that's kind of a shame, because the characters themselves have a lot of potential to be much more interesting. Rey fighting against her darker urges and bonding with Luke because of being an offspring of a powerful Sith Lord, learning how Vader chose redemption and applying this knowledge to her relationship with Kylo, Finn re-evaluating his life experience and having the empathy for stormtroopers, seeing people behind the armor and helmets, maybe helping more of them to defect, etc. It could be awesome, but we've got what we've got, with BB8 and Porg's design being the only good and memorable things in the trilogy.
Yeah! If it was taken seriously and said in a more angry or even sad way, it would've worked!
Finn was one of the few things ne sequels had with gigantic potential and they botched it so hard its kinda amazing
Man, that is so true... and so sad! They had a red carpet in front of them, the whole fanbase just waiting, and they managed to shit all over our expectations and their own franchise. The Disneylogy was such a clusturfuck of clumsiness...
The conversation between Mando & Mayfeld in the truck about their motivations and similarities was excellent as well. Good writing, and thoughtful acting.
The actor for imperial officer Mayfield shot also did an outstanding job, being villainous but never over the top or camp. A terrific scene.
I liked the hard southern drawl he had in the episode instead of the typicial British/Core accent most Imperials had even though it wouldn't be difficult for have him be British as Richard Brake (you may know him better as Joe Chill in Batman Begins or The Night King in seasons 3 and 5 of Game of Thrones) is Welsh.
"villainous but never over the top or camp" - which you can't say to Hux.
@@Sekir80 Hux had that terrifying nazi vibe in TFA and then they turned him into a joke. And then they had the guy who committed massive genocide on an entire system change sides and become a “hero” for five minutes before being unceremoniously killed by who Hux should’ve been.
It would of been interesting to see Finn have a Batman like motivation. He'll fight against them, but he'll never kill them and would even put his life in danger to save fellow troopers.
Instead what we got from Finn was a strange three step plan
1. Dont kill innocents
2. Leave the first order because all stormtroopers were kidnapped as kids and forced into this life
3. Kill stormtroopers
@@more-reasons6655 💀
The thing that surprises me most is the time to screen ratio Mayfield was a background character and his story took up maybe of 1 hour cumulative screen time but the story they were telling endeared us to him, although too bad he died. Compared to Finn where he was a main character and had several hours of screentime yet was just following others for most of it and shooting stormtroopers. Shows how despite time and money a good story is a good story.
He didn't die, though? He did the thing and Cara Dune "never saw him again afterwards wink wink."
@@apollolux r/whoosh
@@callmedaddy225 Don’t be that guy lol
@@apollolux It's a shame, really, that he died in that explosion. =]
If memory serves, they just left Mayfield on the planet and reported that he died so he could have a fresh start with no "Imperial Entanglements"...
The Believer was without a doubt my favorite Mandalorian episode. It humanized stormtroopers instead of making them these mindless punks who the main characters are immune to. It also gave Boba Fett a new and badass look, gave Mayfeld amazing character development, and brought back the seismic charge. Thank you Lucasfilm
I hope they bring back Bill Burr in season 3. He has a pretty good arc.
Mayfeld, in a couple scenes, made us feel the pain and guilt he has endured for a long time. Finn, in a trilogy, just felt like a kid tagging along with friends.
This was an amazing study of those two characters. Honestly, my favorite dialog in A New Hope was between those two stormtroopers about the BT-16. It was the most real slice of life bit of characterization in the entire film. When I was a sailor in the Navy, I had dozens of such conversations during the countless hours of watch standing. Some of the books from legends had characters who were stormtroopers. That was so long ago, that I don't remember any specifics, but I enjoyed them immensely. I grew up obsessed with masks, in huge part because of Star Wars. But for me, it was a way to hide the parts of me I didn't want the world to see. But seeing beneath the masks of some stormtroopers gave me the courage to break out of my shell. I'm autistic, so social anxiety was a very real problem, but Star Wars has helped me open up to people.
Karen Traviss' Clone Commando series was fantastic for that. The series humanized the clones to a phenomenal degree, as well as being just darn good military fiction (as well as superb Star Wars fiction). Sadly, it never got finished because Disney bought out Star Wars and threw the entire EU into the trash.
What kind of medical waiver did you get, because you can join the military with autism
@@Maria_Erias This. I loved that series
Besides not having a single scene with the legacy characters together, Finn would have to be the biggest letdown of the sequels. Such wasted potential
so many letdowns in the sequels. Finn was def one of the biggest. one of the cringiest for me was when lando took a week/ a few days (cant remember) time and showed up at Exegol with a rebel fleet the same size as the imperial fleet that had over 1000 Xyston class star destroyers crewed by sith cultists and somehow, that imperial fleet didnt even bother fighting back too hard, probably because they were in awe of the sheer organizational and logistical masterpiece that is Lando Calrisian convincing the entire galaxy to fight at exegol within just a week
They did our boy dirty.
I really hope Mayfeld becomes a recurring character somehow. Not sure what can be done with him that hasn't already been done, but it'd be nice to see the "ex-Imperial agent gone good" angle done justice. That and Mayfeld was a freaking sharpshooter for the imps; what kind of training did he have to go through to get a rank like that? What made him different from your run of the mill trooper? Remember how he reacted to someone insinuating that he was one in his debut episode? Was that because he felt he was better than your average trooper, or was it because he was a trooper and was promoted to a higher rank for his actions during Operation Cinder; something that haunts him? There's potential for a story there and I hope someone at Lucasfilm/Disney is smart enough to capitalize on it.
Stormtroopers are immedeatly promoted to sharpshooter when they manage to hit an enemy
@@joseocasio3740 I genuinely cannot tell if that's a joke, or if that is a totally believable situation for the Empire. God knows they valued quantity over quality.
Hear me out, a series or movie with Cobb Vanth and Mayfeld.
@@DragonmanX90 Just like TIE Fighters don't have shields or decent maneuverability because the laser spitting pilots are expendable, I suppose Stormtroopers are just a show of force in large numbers who are easily replaceable too. Maybe the Empire should've tried training them a bit better then the Rebellion wouldn't have succeeded. Luke was right, Palpatine's overconfidence was his weakness.
I feel like they will do something more with him.
Bill Burr's performance in that two minute window still gives me chills. So well done. It was a bit of a novelty seeing him in his first performance of the character, but he really earned my respect for his acting skills the second time around. The writing for his second appearance was masterfully done, and created a character that my friends and I still talk about.
When I first saw Bill Burr on screen I was sceptical, then THIS scene rolls up, and I'm still in awe at this man acting. He conveyed the former trooper so perfectly, I really loved that character.
This video is beautiful: The trilogy was a great example of "I didn't notice it, but my brain did." For him to have an attack when his friend dies, but light up his fellow troopers in the hanger is an extreme difference. He shouldn't have been named until the end of the first, or even second movie.
The problem of keeping it light for kids. If it was darker and written as a man trying to survive by any means necessary then those actions are earned.
@@nathanstender1124 I get your point, but the other trilogies WERE for kids but didn't have all these problems..
The problems here were far deeper than just kiddifying it imho. There was no consistent plan for the story at all.. let alone the characters.
@@Aetoski That is a common misconception. Revenge of the Sith was rated PG-13 unlike all the others for a reason and the original trilogy was PG but by the standards of the 70's/early 80's. I have some scenes for you to look up on youtube if you disagree at least on the original trilogy being targeted at older teenagers and young adults instead of kids. 1. The interrogation of Leia 2. The cave scene on Dagobah 3. Jabba's Rancor scene 4. Leia, Jabba's concubine 5. Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru burned.
@@joshbull623 I don't disagree with anything you're saying there, but the big problem wasn't it being not as dark.. it was no consistent story. They still could have made a good trilogy that was less dark but compelling. They didn't do that. It was always gonna be more child oriented with Disney... all their stuff is. But they've told tons of good stories within that limitation that adults like too.
And GL has said many times the movies were for kids.
@@Aetoski George Lucas has indeed many many times insisted the movies were made for kids and you can dig up interviews from the 70's where he says this too, but the reality is two things 1. Actions speak louder than words 2. Artists control much about their work, their audience and reception isn't among them. Dig up the rough drafts of the original trilogy and they are even darker and slightly more mature than what we ended up with. The man can say it all he wants but it doesn't really matter what he says or his intent when his actions and creative process clearly went the opposite way. The prequels are a different story, I do believe he tried very hard with those to appeal to kids and not just older teens and young adults regardless of how crazy the last one ended up(killing children, choking out a pregnant woman, decapitating a helpless and defeated foe ect ect).
I agree with what you are saying about the sequel, the issue wasn't that it wasn't as dark or gritty but as you said was inconsistent and an incoherent version of a story we already got. Rebels and Bad Batch are a perfect example of what could have been, both are lighter animations by comparison to the movies, targeting primarily kids and yet they are phenomenally well received and rated even by adults and critics. Instead of retelling what we know with a different coat of paint, they tell new and interesting stories and to Disneys surprise, it is what people want.
I always compare Finn to Kyle Katarn, as Katarn was a former Imperial officer who defected to the Rebel Alliance and then became a Jedi, the exact arc people wanted for Finn. He even had an Asian woman as a partner and love interest, only Jan Ors actually did stuff unlike Rose Tico.
Wait Jan is asian? I never even realised…
@@themanwhowouldbebrick It's hard to notice on 90's and early 2000's video game graphics but she was played by an Asian woman in the Dark Forces 2 live-action cutscenes.
@@vetarlittorf1807 oh I see, I never noticed that since I only played outcast and academy.
Well, to be fair, Rose was likely supposed to do more, but they had to cut her off in TRoS due to some toxic people hating on her for no reason.
@@eeveeofalltrades4780 The character wasnt very good in my opinion. She was poorly written and came off really bad. The actress however didnt deserve the hate she got. If she got any at all.
There are people that say she did but i havent see any evidence of that. Her closing her Instagram account doesnt count in my opinion.
Rose just didnt come off as a likeable character to me. If you liked her cool
5:48 This right here. Finn goes from being unwilling to even keep his weapon raised to gleefully shooting fellow troopers and pilots overnight.
Not even overnight. Literally, the next scene after his breakdown, he's doing a prison break and shooting at his fellow stormtroopers.
Yep, this makes no sense. He should be a pacifistic type of character who rejects violence because he knows both sides of the conflict, so he doesn´t see just the faceless, nameless cannon fodder.
you people are missing the point. He has so much hate and distrust towards the first order that he renounced them and had to kill them for his survival and the Resistance's survival.
@@ARandomInternetUser08 That's some cope
@@Walamonga1313 and what's that supposed to mean?
One of my favorite moments is near the end when he blows up the transports and says something to the effect “I have to be able to sleep at night”
Also hear that this scene resonated with a lot of real vets
That whole scene with Mayfield in the mining facility felt genuinely authentic when he was talking to the officer about Operation Cinder
Great. Now that you've mentioned how Finn could have intentionally missed when shooting, I'm starting to wonder whether the other stormtroopers actually were such bad shots or whether they were faking it... I'll never see dead stormtroopers under the same light again :'(
It's controversial, but some scholars who study war assert that most soldiers in most wars intentionally miss when shooting at the enemy. The US Army revamped their training methods to specifically address this tendency.
But then Rogue One doesn't make sense. That was the first time that I really took storm troopers seriously and was even a little scared of them.
@Elisabeth Tommasi
In A New Hope, Princess Leia said the Empire let her and her friends escape the Death Star in order to track them to the Rebel Base on Yavin 4. So, the stormtroopers were likely missing on purpose.
@@TheVeritas1 Hard to agree on this. Foot soldier storm troopers wouldn't have known about the plan/trap. Higher ups would have known and could have made moves and decisions to fulfill this. Few foot soldiers would put their lives on the line knowing it was a feint. Higher ups wouldn't tell foot soldiers a dangerous plan like that, one to telegraph that it is a feint, and soldiers don't like to be cannon fodder. Few foot soldiers would put their lives on the line knowing it was a feint.
Unless there was mental manipulation and they are otherwise just robots following orders.
@@nathanstender1124
Rewatch ANH for Leia's line.
Yes!! The episode in season 2 of Mando is one of my very favorite Star Wars moments because it is the only time when you are absolutely and completely cheering for the empire. And it feels so strange until you realize that you are not rooting for the empire, but the troopers. You really hate the empire and the his former officer. So while you love the soldiers who save Mando with the TIE’s, you still feel right when Mayfeld blows the place up. Mayfeld shows that the troopers are people and the empire itself is the evil thing.
Yeah man, the scene where they drive over the bridge with all the troopers coming out to cover them and then when they're congratulated and saluted gave me chills for some reason, i always hated how movies treat the opposition as if they're mindless goons.
And then they proceed to likely kill all those troopers by blowing up the transports.
Mayfeld is a great character played by a great actor.
Finn is a bland character no-one cares about also played by a good actor.
Mayfield sucks too. He is angry that Empire doesn't care about the lives of its soldiers...and then murders a hundred of them himself.
mayfield is only good because of this one scene after that they kind of forgot about everything
@@Сайтамен shooting others to survive is a thing, sacrificing your own troopers is another. Mayfield was in a life-or-death situation.
@@Сайтамен He came to hate what the Empire stands for, he doesn't consider himself a part of it anymore. It still isn't necessarily a reason to kill dozens (hundreds?) of troopers that way, but he wasn't in a right state of mind when he took these decisions.
@@Azerty72200 You can make same excuse for Finn - not right state of mind.
That episode with Mayfeld was great too. And not only does we learn more and get the glimpse under the helmet. He really makes you think about the difference in the Star Wars governments when he talks about the New Republic and Empire being the same to the villagers they drive by.
Think about it: during Republic, Anakin and his mother were slaves. During Empire, Luke was a free man and he considered going to the Imperial pilot academy to make a career, so even a farmboy from a backwards ass end of nowhere had some perspectives in life under Empire. So... was the Empire that evil, and was the Republic that good?
@@kamchatmonk there was still slavery under the empire. look at the wookiees
@@STONKS0897 No one's saying the Empire was all good. Just that the Republic wasn't much better. It was thoroughly corrupt, unfair, and falling apart.
Great example of what they could have done with Finn is Teal'c from 'Stargate SG-1.' Yes, he does kill his fellow Jaffa(cannon fodder) throughout the series. But he also works tirelessly with other rebels to eventually free all the Jaffa and turn them against their false god oppressors. Something like that would have been so much more satisfying.
Great reference actually
Imagine Finn having to fight the "traitor" electrostaff trooper but only defensively trying to win without attacking. The internal struggle on top of the external struggle would have made a lot better.
Even throw in the line "I don't want to hurt/kill you"as he's swinging the lightsaber. Something.
Or imagine Finn and the black girl in TROS infiltrating in the Star Destroyer and convincing Stormtroopers to riot against the First Order. After all, those were child soldiers.
@@fm_0523 Yep, something more than the most basic backstory that's dropped the moment he leaves the First Order. I don't think they will ever do it but if Disney ever retconns the squeal trilogy I wont object one bit.
Hahaha x-wing cannon go pewpew
That scene was already epic, but that that would have made it even more so.
I never thought of it this way before, but when you describe Finn's lack of empathy--and unabashed joy at killing his fellow First Order troopers, he really comes across as a bit of a sociopath.
This could still work if he was bullied by everyone. Not only the high ranking officers like Phasma but also by the regular troopers. But there is no explanation why he has a mental block against killing the villagers but has no problem to kill people he served with.
you people are missing the point. Those aren't his fellow troopers anymore. They are evil people trying to kill them and operating on starkiller base. What would he do? Say "no, I feel bad for them, let's not kill them and let starkiller base destroy countless worlds?...🙄
@@ARandomInternetUser08 I think you are actually the one missing the point. You're trying to say that the point is that the First Order are the bad guys now so Finn has to kill them without remorse, which is boringly simplistic and entirely ignores the video we just watched above. The actual point is that those were people that he used to work with who are brainwashed into following orders, so why is he so happy to mow them down? People don't magically lose empathy for who they used to work with even if they become the enemy, that's not how human emotion works. He can still do what needs to be done by blowing up Starkiller Base, but he also needs to feel conflicted, otherwise, yes, he does in fact come off as a sociopath.
@@RayramAureanBlue I'm not missing the point
@@ARandomInternetUser08 If you didn't miss the point, then you should understand that no one is saying he shouldn't help his own survival and the resistance, just that Finn needs to feel inner conflict for doing so when his former comrades lives are being taken.
Mayfield's speech to his former commanding officer felt real, and raw. I can't tell if it was improv or not, but it felt real. That's all I gotta say. Almost every character in that show danced in fire before they got to this point.
That's a great way to put it! You could feel the weight of a lot of stuff that went down without even having to see any of it.
@@brandonmshrock Why, thanks man! I appreciate it. It's just such good writing on display.
I'm pretty sure Burr said he was just reading the script, a lot of veterans wrote into his podcast telling him he nailed the part and the attitude a lot of vets hold towards their time in service and in combat zones, but he bassically just passed the praise to the writers saying something like "I didn't do shit, I just read the script"
I think he's just naturally of that opinion though, like that part talking about those events in the way he did is Bill Burr but with more combat induced trauma.
@@sirspamalot4014 Even if it was just reading the script, it's a testament to both the writing of the show, and Bill Burr's ability to act that they were able to convey that scene. He nailed the delivery and behavior needed to make his lines feel real.
@@sirspamalot4014 "I didn't do shit, I just read the script" Okay, that is totally a Burr response. That is so what he would say. Still, he acted the shit out of it.
I loved it when Mayfeld broke and just blasted the officer in front of him. I can tell what he endured because of that officer truly scarred him by how all his training and discipline jumped out the window when he shot the officer. It’s truly sad.
If you ever served you would know how leadership, with rhe power they have, make or break the team beneath them. Even seeing a b*ttkissing pos get promoted before you despite failing in every other way erodes your trust and makes you feel callous. Let alone seeing good men die under the leadership of such pieces of.
In the Ep. 9 artbook, there was a concept for a completely different movie where Finn got an awesome conclusion to his character arc leading a stormtrooper rebellion.
Also it would have partially taken place on Coruscant and the Emperor wasn't even mentioned.
I hope Mayfeld comes back. Honestly I’d love to see him meet up with Cobb Vanth. Have them become Lawmen partners. Make a real Western series in the Star Wars Universe
Boy do I have some bad news about cobb vanth
@@MrDylanm842 Boy do I have good news about cobb vanth
@@gabehorn1007 HES ALIVE?
@@MrDylanm842 There's a post credit scene at the end of BoBF where is in a bacta tank about to get surgery
@@gabehorn1007 I didnt see it, bobf let me down so much that I didn't even bother waiting for post credits
For Finn not to display any residual PTSD throughout the trilogy is just lazy on the part of the writers. They didn't care about making him a great character at all. They just wanted a black character on the covers.
Finn didn't need to be black... Poe could have just as easily. Their characters would have been just as weak due to the writing.
@@waltciii3 Poe or Finn, it didn't matter to them. They just wanted a black face on the covers.
@@LordHollow It shouldn't have been hard. There've been us blacks in sci fi for decades. Maybe Trek was better at that.
@@waltciii3 Trek was way better at that. Star Wars had never headlined a black man visually before.
@@LordHollow Lando was my man tho.
I really liked John Boyega as Finn but Mayfield was a WAYYYYY BETTER CHARACTER. The Sequel Trilogy was filled with characters that kept regressing their arcs like Finn who went from a brave guy who abandoned The First Order to do what's right after being indoctrinated into being a Stormtrooper most of his life to always SIMPING OVER BRITISH JEDI WHITE GIRL REY 😂. I really hate what Disney Sequel Trilogy did to beloved Original Trilogy cast by never having them all reunited before Carrie Fisher passed away.
No no no. You have it all wrong. Finn was never a brave guy. His "doing what was right" and helping to desttoy Starkiller Base was incidental to him just wanting to save Rey. He was a coward. (Source: The Rise of Skywalker Visual Dictionary).
Yes, they retconned Finn's character arc to remove any redeeming qualities.
Mayfield sucks too. He is angry that Empire doesn't care about the lives of its soldiers...and then murders a hundred of them himself.
@@Сайтамен To be real, anyone still sticking with the Empire when they don't have to anymore made their choice. He got out and they could have too.
@@InfernosReaper Oh yeah, so much for talking about families and everyone just being a survivor to just "YOU CHOSE THE WRONG SIDE, DIE!" Lol...And...can they get out? Moff Gideon kills for less. By the way, in season 1 Bill Burr wanted to kill Grogu. He isn't really misunderstood good guy.
@@Сайтамен They obviously don't give too much of a damn about their families if they're staying with *the side that lost* living with outlaws.
As for "Moff Gideon kills for less" yeah, sure if he can find them? Mayfield got out no problem. They could too, but *choose* to stay and do genuinely seem into what they're doing.
I was proud of Bill for that role. For a non-fan and a self-professed non-actor, he did a convincing job.
This is part of the reason why I love the mandolorian and the book of boba fett. The two shows make all the faceless fodder, like the storm trooper and the tusken raiders, actual people with backstory, feelings and ideas. It shows the other side that not one of the movies was able to accurately show.
The stories of not the good guys or the Jedi but the outcast and forgotten..
_"Mayfeld cared about his fellow troopers and knew that they had familes."_
*_Proceeds to shoot the Lunch trooper without hesitation._*
True, but the alternative is dying
I feel like Mayfeld's characterization as "not a good guy" from earlier in the season helps to characterize him easily killing others. Unlike Finn, Mayfeld is a proper soldier. His scene highlighted a personal antagonism that contributed to his current "in it for himself attitude", but it also effectively generates some sympathy for him, without making it unbelieveable that he'd kill anyone who'd get in his way. Its simple but works.
@@awesomedavid2012 To piggy-back off of Jazz's post, there's also a stark difference in who those people are. Being in the empire doesn't automatically make you buddy-buddy. Finn killed the troopers on HIS ship, he killed troopers assigned to his group, he killed troopers he DIRECTLY served beside. All of Mayfield's friends are dead and gone, all of his comrades are gone, all of the men he served alongside were gone. So while yes, they were all part of the empire, the troopers in this base are no different than the rando new republic trooper on the prison ship, or any other rando person he's killed. They all had families and lives too. So it's clear that Mayfield cares about those he cares about, and is far more ruthless to those he doesn't. And a galaxy-spanning blanket of "the empire" doesn't suddenly make you a friend of Mayfield.
@@War450 also, the empire is gone, these are the remnants. if that guy is still in a storm trooper uniform, he's probably a dick.
"Lunch Trooper"... it seems an interesting specialization 🤔
Migs may actually be one of my favorite Mando characters, which is weird because I didn’t like him at first.
I know right?! I feel the same way. He's one of the only side characters in the show that's actually gotten some good character development.
Same here. I didnt like his wise ass at first but ended up liking him and more once he had a deep conversation with the Officer about stormtrooper life meaning nothing to the empire
Ahsoka Tano fans: “First time?”
The thing that really pushed that episode home in Mando season 2 is when the troopers are watching them come out the truck and after some silence where they expect to be imprisoned or killed theres applause and celebration for their work. It shows such a good parallel to how the Resistence would celebrate in the OG trilogy and humanizes the general people on the otherside of the conflict.
Finn acts more like someone who joined the first order last week as opposed to being with them since early childhood.
He should have acted more lite the Romulans from Star Trek.
Finn is more a young child soldier, who has never been in battlefield outside of training and panic when the battle starts.
@@zigurdur92 That still doesn’t explain why he doesn’t give a shit about the fellow stormtroopers he kills left and right.
@@austinjohnsen4430survival is a powerful feeling to kill people. Another interesting thing about him killing troopers in plane in Force Awakens’s escape scene, Finn probably felt he like was playing video game or Like drone soldier shooting people with drones. It becomes easier.
@@zigurdur92 It kinda just reinforces how Stormtroopers are still just faceless cannon fodder.
Even in clone wars they did an awesome job! Rex didn’t want to kill his fellow brothers even when they were trying to kill him. He switched his gun to taser mode.
Didn't Ahsoka order him to stun? I'll have to rewatch it.
I think Rex would be able to kill a fellow clone trooper.
If they were enemies of the Republic, he would do what he had to.
@@woerkntwerk5245 its been carefully reinforced that he would not, his loyalty was only to the republic, and although the empire is technically the republic, hes not loyal to the empire, whereas the clones who didnt have their chips removed were loyal to the empire, he still never kills his brothers who were fighting against the idea of the republic he was loyal to
@@revan0890 The only time he does is to stop them from opening the door and save Ahsoka. After that she insists on stunning and force pushing them because she can't bring herself to kill them. And even though Rex is ready to kill them to save their lives, the very thought of it (and the fact that there's nothing he could do to save them from the chip) brings him to tears. It's painful for him to know that one way or another, his brothers were going to die. So even though he knew he had to kill them in order to survive, he didn't want to at all.
Only on Ashoka's orders. Rex killed the first troopers to come through the doors.
Fin had more potential and more to work with but Migs absolutely was awesome and well done in just 2 episodes
mayfeld was a character who actually felt dangerous and irreverent in a way I think Star Wars could really use more of
I always found Bill Burr hilarious. That scene with his former CO, showed he can act as well.
Great video. I always hated Finn for his complete disregard for the other grunts. Being in the Army and a grunt myself at a few points, I couldn't imagine turning on the same guys who were by my side spilling the same blood in the same mud.
You’re idea about Rey would totally have fixed her as well! In the movies there’s no real reason for her to care about anything going on, it’s not like they killed her family like they did Luke’s. It would have been so great for both characters to have Rey be the reluctant hero who only cares about finding her own place, her own parents, while Finn, born and raised to serve a cause, is now in crisis and trying to decide how to destroy the First Order he hates for what is has done to him and others while still feeling a kinship for his fellow soldiers.
It's likely that during the writing process Finn was supposed to be the main character but Kennedy wanted a female lead, so Rey was given a more prominent position in the story. I could imagine Rey as more of a Han Solo type tough uncaring rogue that finds meaning in her life through helping Finn.
Finn had some great potential and I really wanted to see more of him. His “origin story” had so much to go off of. But he just became comic relief rather than an interesting individual. Even in the first movie they did a bit too much comedy especially with him. It only got worse in the one after. That sudden switch to willingness to kill people who he might be familiar with was also a bit of a problem. Which would be fine too if they explored/explained it.
Mayfield, surprisingly given his actual job as a comedian and apparently hating star wars, really fit the more serious tone even with the jokes. And he got more interesting rather than devolving to just comic relief.
Also didn’t know of Bill (that I remember) until sometime after he showed up in there. I definitely didn’t recognize him.
Really, I think Rey and Finn should have been two separate stories that could connect nearer to the end. Plus it would have meant more movies, and thus more money.
Also really liked the video.
This. Finn went from an apparent mental breakdown at the sight of his first battle to a comic relief within the course of a movie, let alone across the trilogy. It was a waste, especially when the initial ad campaign made it clear that he was supposed to be one of the main characters. He got major hype in trailers for The Force Awakens, he was the _first_ major character revealed. Shot of the desert of Jakku, and voice-over of "There has been an Awakening. Have you felt it?" and up pops Finn into frame, helmet off but clearly in stormtrooper armor. Long shot there, dramatic sequence of a group of First Order stormtroopers on a drop-ship priming for battle, giving clear signs that this dude in the first shot might be important. What do we see of Rey in the first trailer? Her flipping switches on her speeder and zooming off. Poe? Brief shot of him in the cockpit of his X-wing, before the shot goes to an external of a squadron of them. _Finn_ is the one that reads like the most important of the three.
And yet, after all that clear traumatic response in the opening of the movie, of realizing he can't do what the First Order wants him to do, of making the daring heroic escape from the First Order's flagship after setting Poe free, he's just there to look stupid and cowardly. His willingness to fire on other troopers at least makes sense in that scene: they're trying to escape, they get caught they'll be lucky if they're killed, so it's do-or-die time. After that? The only time we see a fight that makes sense is him taking on Kylo Ren with the lightsaber. He has every reason to hate and fear Ren, and every reason to need this fight. That works.
Unfortunately, it's a couple of scenes that make sense in a stew of bad writing I can only attribute to the fact that it's clear that a bait-and-switch was pulled somewhere along the line (post ad campaign, clearly) to position Rey as principle protagonist, which I felt was the much weaker choice...but it's entirely likely due to Disney's massive history of marketing solely to please their Chinese market, thus removing/minimizing things (including characters) that won't meet approval. So, write the black stormtrooper who becomes a hero down into the Jar-Jar Binks comedy sidekick role, elevate the incredibly generic-as-hell "strong female protagonist" archetype to main protagonist role. Stick her in creepy-ass gaslighting "romance" plot with the villain. Pit your directors against one another so that your second and third films are so full of each of them trying to crap all over what came before that there's no room for real plot. Profit?
Whaaat, that bit with Mayfeld was only two minutes?! I remember it as a much longer window of time. Just goes to show how terrific that scene was. The tension was so palpable.
That Mayfeld scene where he killed the Senior Officer hit me hard. It was amazing acting and I immediately had to tell my wife about it and get her reaction. Man, that was just so well done (and it's the reason I'm here right now watching this video).
By the end of force awakens I forgot Finn was a stormtrooper.
4:08 Here's the fallacy JJ Abrams hoped we all would fall for: A storm trooper for the New Order is not the same as a storm trooper for the Empire. JJ took an idea fit for an Expanded Universe novel and used it to validate the New Order as being Just Like the Empire... only none of it makes much sense. An organization that kidnapped babies and trained them into soldiers over a decade or two isn't seen as a threat? How does that organization even start? It works with the Empire because they moved from CLONES to CANNON FODDER but the New Order went from nothing to GALACTIC level threat because "Don't ask stupid questions because they look like the Empire".
Just, WOW! I never considered the comparisons to be there. I enjoyed Finn on the first movie. The second and third movie seems that his potential to tells his story of a former Stormtrooper becoming a hero was lost. Finn had so much hope. Absolutely the Mandalorian series displayed the prospective from a former Stormtrooper who also abandoned the Galactic Empire. I say again I was let down with the lack of story building and history for Finn.
Yeah, that episode with Mayfield is the highlight of S2. It not only humanizes the Imperial soldiers, it also shows why someone who was part of( and formerly proudly) the Empire would be willing to turn on them, and fellow soldiers that they might have been friends with.
Actually taking advantage of the story opportunity of that kind of character, unlike the sequels.
If only the rest of the season could have had that level of writing quality.
Don't forget the scene when Mando and Mayfield finally make it to imperial base, and all the troopers saluting them, and Mayfield looking very emotional saluting them back.
Mayfield had more character in 30min of side tv show screentime than Finn in a whole movie trilogy.
Bill Burr was fantastic in the role. When he returned in another episode and ends up working with Mando, his story was so much deeper and we learn more about why he is the way he is. Excellent character development. Then there Finn…..huge example of lost potential in a story. Darn sequel trilogy.
Yeah
That seen when he shoots the officer was priceless
Honestly this is one of the big problems I had with The Force Awakens. I was never a fan of the sequel trilogy and never liked the first movie either. I thought the characters all seemed so rushed and lacked any true depth. It doesn't help that the entire sequel trilogy takes place over the course of 2 years. Not that a massive amount of time needs to take place for characters to grow, but it helps for sure. Like going from a force sensitive to Jedi Master tends to take time.
But in a first movie that will be a trilogy you can forgive that, because the expectation is you will get more development and more backstory as the trilogy goes on. More character growth too...but the problem is this never happens. Look at Snoke. Look at Rey. Look at Luke (and I cri typing that).
The entire reason that the trilogy is so bad is missed opportunity after missed opportunity, failed storytelling after failed storytelling, poor planning after poor planning. And it sucks because TFA had soooo much potential to open into this fantastic sequal trilogy...but it never did. It introduced all these cool ideas, these cool characters...and then fizzled out. And I would say with lazy writing, but I don't think that's the case. I think it was due to an agenda Disney was trying to push instead. This is the difference between writing strong female characters because "waman good" and writing strong female characters that are driven by the story--and strong BECAUSE of the events happening in the story and the characters experiences.
We don't get much development because Disney couldn't have Fin, Poe, Luke, or Solo--or any other male character, outshining their strong female lead. And I strongly believe this is why we get such terrible characters. Rey has to be OP, she has to outshine Luke Effing Skywalker, after all--with zero training, almost zero character development, and no other character can outshine her in development or power. And the thing is, she had very little character development, so nobody else can really have any or they will suddenly take the spotlight from the strong female lead that is supposed to empower women.
It's storytelling for propaganda, not plot. And THAT is why the sequel trilogy ended up so bad. Nobody will be able to change my mind otherwise either.
@@shawnwolf5961 You are absolutely correct.
Not even two years. The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi happen back to back over the course of DAYS at most. And then Rise of Skywalker happens a year later. So a year. The entire trilogy takes place over the course of a year.
@@FalenDragmire The entire trilogy takes place over days. With a time jump in-between two movies.
@@brianpinkey676 That would just make it worse.
If Finn’s arc was about him dealing with the guilt of turning against his former allies and learning to accept that he must do what is necessary for the greater good (and fighting against those he once empathized with) would make a much more compelling character. An penultimate challenge for him could’ve been facing a fellow officer he liked and once looked up to and now he has to confront.
GREAT analysis! I totally agree! I remember thinking "WTF?!" when Finn almost gleefully blew up his fellow troopers to help Po escape. Made ZERO sense from a character standpoint and I had the same foreboding I felt after seeing Jar-Jar Binks speak for the first time, whereas Miggs Mayfield came to life for me in that second appearance and I too am looking forward to seeing him again, hopefully in an expanded role. I think he has series regular potential for sure.
I know right? From the get go the movie left a bad taste. Honestly I don't even mind Jar Jar, he's just supposed to be dumb and mostly useless. Whereas Finn looked like he could've been an interesting character, but he was relegated to being dumb and mostly useless.
Will we ever be able to accept that the sequels were as bad as they were, that even though they were made by the biggest company in entertainment history, they had no plan at all?
Will we ever be able to let go
Sequels*
@@Firelord91021 nooo i messed up 😂
@@siiir1322 lol
I'm clinging onto the theory that the sequels were retconned during the events of Rebels.
Maybe eventually we will forget them and move on, or maybe extended things will make them good, like Clone Wars did with the prequels (imo).
For me, that scene with Mayfeld and Joe Chill served two purposes, one was for the character development of Mayfeld,
The second was to remind the audience who the monsters truly are, and to make us forget about the feeling we got from the Cheering Troopers earlier in the scene when they made the delivery, so that we won't feel so bad about Them Troopers being fodder again.
I think that scene further humanized the actual troopers themselves and further demonized the officers. How many of those stormtroopers were just like Mayfeld? How many of them were suffering but not yet disillusioned? Probably a lot of them realistically. The officers have always been shown as absolute slimeballs
@@tubbyduck5317
Yo!
Must be one of the reasons why they chose Dark Troopers to be slaughtered like that on the season ender.
Also can you imagine if they were Human Troopers facing him like that?
Yikes!
All the dismemberments, bodies thrown like ragdolls, and the screaming in horror and agony will echo from the monitor they were watching from.
Would have been a Horror Show.
@@SaladinVadik it really is just the Vader scene from Rogue One but with Luke
@@tubbyduck5317
The force Ghost of Anakin watching his son do a Hallway saber fight be like:
Anakin: WOO! That's my Son! That's my Son!
Obi-Wan: Ah, I remember when we did the same together during the clone wars.
“I WASN’T A STORMTROOPER!”
Wiseass
Man, it’s so fucking bullshit how you choose to setup both characters with one done badly, & one done well with the main argument being “One shoots down his troopers like cannon fodder, & the other one doesn’t” while completely ignoring the big fucking ass elephant in the room when you reference the scene with Mayfield at the table where he literally shoots down a bunch of Storm Troopers, & blows up the entire base killing all the fellow soldiers just like Finn, & in this video you talk about how it’s bad, & how it makes his character poor, but you just completely ignore when Mayfield does it in the same fucking scene?!?!!?!?1?!?/?!!??
How did you watch that scene, & pick out specific moments like him shooting the officer to Mayfield him handing the helmet to Mando as a sign of respect, yet somehow the 15 seconds between those 2 moments where he shoots down every trooper in the room to avoid getting shot at somehow didn’t fucking cross your mind when it fucks up all the arguments you’re making in the entire vid?!?!?!/!?!!??1?!!
This is like..
..I don’t..
….WHAT?!?!
How did you somehow manage to fucking miss that?!?!/1?!
This video is so fucking baffling because you can make negative statements to both characters, yet you only point out one of them, then praise the other for not doing that, & having depth, but the scene that you’re using to say he has depth, & manages to be deeper…
..HAS THE EXACT SAME FAULTS THAT YOU POINTED OUT ABOUT FINN SAYING IT WAS THE CORE FAULT OF HIS CHARACTER?!?!?1!?/?!
How did this happen?
How when you were editing this, & you pulled those clips up to use as visuals..
..how did somehow Mayfield shooting up all the imperial soldiers that were just around not enter your mind?
This vid is so baffling because the main core of your argument for Mayfield being an improvement from Finn is ruined by him having the same faults in the scene you’re using as praise for him.
I can’t get over this!!
The second you brought up Finn shooting the soldiers down, I thought it was supposed to be a seed planted for you eventually talking about how Mayfield does the same thing, & how it managed to also unfortunately suck..
..but it wasn’t. You just somehow didn’t notice it, despite it being a huge part of that scene, & it makes you look so severely incompetent on the fact that you missed it.
This vid was absolutely terrible because it doesn’t properly compare to the 2 at all.
You just negate on a character for the one specific reason that can also be applied to the exact scene you use the other character to praise.
That’s actually just really embarrassing.
I would’ve enjoyed Finn as a Jedi way more than Rey
But yeah I loved the dissection of Finn it could’ve been done better
One of my favorite episodes one of criticism I had with sequels was they wasted an opportunity to show a former member of Imperial machine or whatever the First Order was. Basically how does your average soldier thoughts on what going on. The minute they said Stormtroopers in First Order made me go that unrealistic as how the republic just letting these guys kidnap the hundreds of thousands required children at least for the stormtroopers it makes the Republic look incredibly incompetent to point of disbelief and exercises any action Finn did as a strormtropper and hardly Finn being a stormtrooper is relevant to story. Mayfield him being a former member of Imperial Army is his character. You look at him you see yeah this guy would work for Empire he a bully mean and generally seems to look down at people and enjoys taunting non human species. We get layers however we learn Mayfield actually thought he was on right side sure Empire did horrible things but they never personally harmed him and at the end of the day from his eyes it was about order against these rebels. Then on operation Cinder he personally saw and took part in just sheer brutality massacre of civilians and watched in Palpatine madness and malice from beyond the grave has orders to fire on not just civilians but Imperials as well. He watches guys he knows just die horribly. This leads to an interesting philosophy as long as you can sleep at night. It an interesting philosophical question that episode as his former superior claims the ends justify the means and they shouldn’t question superiors. Mayfield I think has a practical philosophy from his experience long as you are alive just do whatever helps you sleep at night. I would like to see Mayfield again but I hoped they don’t do the redemption storyline or have him be a good guy it plainly clear he not a good guy but he not evil I think Star Wars live action needs to realize vast majority of people aren’t simple good vs bad it a lot more complicated than that.
Had they bithered to expand on finn saving other troopers, he could have turned the tide of the battle of the "not" death star by doing more than pointing to a trash compactor, but by leading his fellow troopers im rebellion. it would have been a powerful moment (perhaps accentuated by a speech) that would reinforce the rebel cause strategically and narratively, and would fit right in line with his earliest characterization.
It would have certainly be interesting to see the New Order end up being fractured when some of the members realizes “Oh shit, we’re the baddies” and decides to rebel against the loyalists. It would also be an interesting backdrop to Last Jedi to see resistance and ex-New Order soldiers fighting together, but Last Jedi has so many problems anyways.
@@TheGary108 Or better yet? If that civillian fleet was a _Reformed New Order Fleet_ of people that realized they were being manipulated by the sith, so they turned on -Jar Jar- Clone Palpatine
@@justsomejerseydevilwithint4606 That certainly makes more sense than Lando suddenly showing up with an massive fleet of ships and people that were missing from the last two movies.
@@TheGary108 Exactly! The new movies could have been so good had ANYONE ACTUALLY put effort in them!
If I recall, that was what the director who was originally in line for Rise of Skywalker wanted to do with Finn. Like, there's a ton of concept art that points toward Finn becoming a rallying point for a faction of First Order traitors, and leading them into battle alongside the Resistance, of him stepping up to be a hero in his own right. I can only presume that this--much like basically all of Finn's intended story, and his _also_ being a facet of the Awakening (he was--according to Abrams and some other material--meant to also be a Force-user) got left on the cutting room floor for the same reason he got downgraded from main character (as evinced by his being the first character seen in the first trailer) to comedy sidekick.
its amazing to me that you could remove every scene that finn is in (or remove him from a group scence) and nothing changes in the sequels. He was clearly meant to be the jedi, not Rey
He can not be the Jedi for 2 reasons. He is black and straight male. Disney is racist if you have not noticed it. They pander to China. Chinese CCP does not like black people. And a straight male is the enemy in today’s America
Exactly always thought the same thing. After Episode VII he has nothing significant to do....