I'm Sick of HP in TTRPGs!
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- Опубліковано 23 вер 2024
- If this video did 375 damage to your 18380 HP, I hope you can forgive me. It's all in good fun, and just a way to call out other fun ways to track body aliveness.
Twitter: / klausvonh
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People discovering that DnD has a gigantic outdated game design and philosophy warms my heart.
I half agree- Hp as a concept isn’t going anywhere, but it certainly can be handled better.
It has some outdated stuff but also - modern (WotC) dnd's biggest problem is never getting a good system.
DnD4e kinda came close with heroic vibes, but wotc mishandled it very heavily with releasing it kinda raw and such.
Pf2e kinda is the best for the modern dnd itch, but i hate how it retains a lot of dnd-isms, as if failure of 4e has made both Paizo and WotC afraid of abandoning their sacred cows.
Idk... pf2e could be more up to my taste by having significantly more dnd4e style stuff in it.
Also, thus weird "yes, we think of character classes as having roles, but god forbid we mention those roles in the book" is weird, but a yet another thing of "dnd4e did it, so now dnd-ist systems are afraid of doing it, cause dnd4e was good, but was mishandled"
Outdated... But it works pretty well.
@@gabrielamaral978it works.
Why is it outdated?
For what i heared in this video the entirety of options the guy has proposed are still "hit points" but managed differently.
Nice video. Crown & Skull also has a unique idea called "Attrition." Instead of HP you lose skills or equipment. Keep rocking it. This channel will grow quickly. Don't change a thing.--Professor DM, Dungeoncraft.
Yeah that was the first thing that popped into my head.
Thank you so much! A pleasure to see Professor DM here, and a pleasure to have another awesome game recommendation to check out!
Crown & Skull’s system is still basically just hit points, though.
@@MisterWebb sorta, but the choice of attrition has more narrative impact. Like an arrow gets through my defense, I could say it struck my water flask. Now even if I survive combat, I now have the pressing issue of needing water or repairs on that flask.
@@MisterWebb, not really if one of their skills is Jump, and they lose that skill, that means their legs are hurt. And what if they have either Evade or Shield Fighting skills? Either of those skills that are lost during a combat, can weaken a PC, will cause them injury in a way that they take even more damage, and most likely die during that combat.
The Story Teller system is my favorite implementation of HP where you have a tiny number of relatively static amount of health boxes that each have their own associated penalties if you have it filled in
Word. You can also include conditions, but even without them, losing health actually means something.
Storytelling have a version of that with varying number of health boxes, but the last 3 always cause penalties on rolls. In my opinion is a nicer way to handle things because it removes the need for 4 rolls per attack (attack, defense, damage, soak) and streamlines things. There is also an optional rule that uses conditions instead. But either way, it's a great implementation of health in both systems.
@@ZelphTheWebmancer My personal favorite sub genre of Storyteller system is Exalted, which uses -0, -1, -1, -2, -2, -4, incap, [Stamina] dying
But, in 2e onwards at least, you only have to roll attack and, if it hits and clears the static defense value and static soak value, damage
Also, I love having the Option to buy more health levels, which only Chronicles really lets you get away with by having it be Size + Stamina health boxes, but an Infernal at E5 can have like 27 health boxes and be literally tougher than a castle wall
That does sound interesting.
This is one of the things I appreciate about City of Mist, where there's not really HP, but more how much you resist being KOed by certain types of statuses that can be progressively worse. The weaknesses you didn't strengthen yourself against are your HP since everything has basically only 6 HP at most.
I agree. The last game I played didn't have hp, and was dependent on the injuries and items consumed to track our well being. I didn't die, but my injuries were so debilitating at one point, that it just made more sense for the character to retire in-game. The dm turned that character into an npc who handled magical matters for the party, and even came back in a big way by the end of the campaign. It's a fun memory.
Candela?
@@nitrobw1 Yes, actually! My occultist lost her arm, was blinded, and got possessed during a ritual, so she had to call it quits. At least the party got a free arcanist out of it.
Savage Worlds. Savages Worlds has become my favorite system, one of the reasons is because of the wound system. (It's a 3 HP system, but still lets players roll dice for possible big numbers.)
And each of those 3 HP is a negative modifier (so down 2, and it's -2). Makes you really think if you want to press every fight or sometimes talk it out, flee, hide, bribe, etc.
@@opscontaylor8195 100% agree. My group is a PF 1e group, but I've been playing DnD 3e since the early 2000s, and needed some change. I tried a few systems before I landed on Savage Worlds. So happy I did. It scratches all of my TTRPG itches.
Yeah, the simple Wound System, and Mooks who go down in one hit (and who take their turn all at once so you can just roll all their attacks at once) are what made me fall in love with the system. It's so quick to make and to run encounters! And every hit has the potential to be a real chonky one, with Bennies providing ways to both defend against big hits, or to fish for big damage.
Man, this was a fantastic video. You've gotten very good at breaking down complicated systems and ideas easily.
Thank you so much!
I'm personally fine with any system for health (or lack thereof), as long as it meshes well with the system's goals. Sometimes I want tactical combat, so a wargame with a roleplaying system that's pretty much stapled on is very acceptable (DnD 4e). In this case, I find HP good, and I dare say I'd be frustrated if it didn't have traditional HP because someone wanted to homebrew it away or something.
Other times, I'm looking for a more narrative experience where that broken arm matters, so Fate has my back, and I wouldn't want it to have traditional HP because that conflicts with what Fate does.
Best most-entertaining and most-convincing argument against traditional HP. Agree 100%.
We are in our spicy era and I love it
Love this video. I design games for the fun of figuring out different ways of doing things and having them work and I’ve always hated ever expanding hit points. The problem with talking to people in my area is all they have ever played is d&d and in their eyes that system is perfect, such annoying conversations lol
I was actually thinking about HP recently, and I'm glad you covered this...
fate core’s stress and consequence system is so good, i’m so glad i started gming it recently
Consequences doesn't even have to be "health", that's what so neat about it!
Instead of... Bruised Arm or something, use Broken Shield.
You took a hit big enough that your shield broke, so the GM can invoke that so he has an easier time hitting you.
Then you use like Craft to repair or Resource to buy a new one once the map is over, rename the consequence to "Getting Used to that New Shield" and fully remove it at the end of the next map (for mild).
hell yes new dungeon newb video! absolutely LOVE how much you dunk on dnd in your newer videos, please do keep doing it. also, your channel has been a godsend in introducing my friends to ttrpgs (especially fate core). there’s tons of videos about how to play dnd but not very many good guides for anything else, so i really appreciate it
Somebody needs to get this this guy playing Savage Worlds. You get 3 wounds. You can heal, but you never get more than that. Good luck!
Another great video though, well done!
I hate massive amounts of HPs too and wanted damage to feel dangerous but give players options for damage mitigation. Thanks for mentioning EZD6.
Thank you for making such a phenomenal system, DM Scotty! I will gladly sing its praises whenever given a chance!
Much appreciated@@TheDungeonNewbsGuide
Real talk, I love this! I would not mind if this became a series like you alluded it could be near the end of the video.
This is why I like Forbidden Lands and it’s attribute damage system. Instead of hp, you take damage to one of your four attributes, Strength/ Dexterity/ Empathy/ & Wits. If you take more damage then you have attribute points then you sustain a permanent critical wound. Strength and dex being more traditional physical damage, leaving you either paralyzed/ crippled or dead. Wits damage causing you to go insane from fear attacks and trauma. And losses and embarrassment from empathy damage causing the pc to lose confidence in themselves and possibly lash out.
I really enjoy this system cause it can allow for all types of none-traditional damage. As well as making losing in any department actually feel meaningful.
I've always liked to describe Hit Points not as something you _lose_ when you take damage, but as a resource you _spend_ to _avoid_ taking damage. Instead of "the attack deals 13 damage, I lose 13 HP," you'd say "the attack deals 13 damage, I'll spend 13 HP to avoid it," and you get taken out (knocked out, killed, whatever) when you have none left to spend. I've seen a number of DMs use the phrase "Hit Points aren't Meat Points"; a successful hit doesn't have to mean the attack penetrated your defenses and caused physical harm to you, and Hit Point loss could be represented by mental stress, physical exertion, and the willpower to continue fighting. Say a bandit hits you with an axe, instead of simply "it cuts you across the chest" you might say "you twist out of the way and just barely manage to dodge by a hair" or "you block it with your shield but feel the impact of the blow up to your shoulder" or "your breastplate deflects the blow but the impact briefly knocks the wind out of you for a second", all of which would be an expenditure of Hit Points. Once you hit zero HP, _that's_ the big meaningful blow that defeated your defenses and took you out of the fight, whether that means you were stabbed through the chest, knocked out by a blow to the head, or just decided you can't go on and collapsed from exhaustion.
There was a UA-cam video years ago about this very subject, that used the famous clifftop duel from The Princess Bride as an example, where although Westley and Iñigo never strike each other, every dodge and parry is an expenditure of Hit Points, until Iñigo reached 0 HP and Westley knocked him out.
I always enjoy your videos! And as a long time gamer who had to put the hobby on pause for awhile with work and young kids, coming back to dnd and such just never feels as satisfying anymore. I think things like this are partly why.
Definitely enjoy the narrative more than the miniature skirmish parts
Holy crap this might be my favorite one of your videos homie! This was fantastic!
I play Scion 2e and after philosoficing about the fighting mechanics in that game I really like it. D10-pool, count successes on 8+.
Each player has a minimum of 3 HP and can increase to 5 depending on your stamina score. When you hit someone you compare your number of successes against their defense, if you meet their defence value, you can inflict 1 damage. If you beat it then you can use the rest of the successes on stunts like shoving an enemy to the ground, destroy their weapon or even push them (might) meter (max. 5).
If you fail to meet their defence then you can still use the successes you got to do the stunts so even if you can't hurt someone, maybe you can throw some dirt in their face and make it easier for the next guy to hit.
There's also armor; light armor makes it harder to be hit by increasing the defence value and hard armor works the same way Guard does in DIERPG.
This. All of this. This is why I love you Klaus.
In a homebrew RPG I'm working on, HP & wounds are combined - but aren't the be all & end all
Simply, HP determines WHEN your character gets a wound, and is determined by the damage type that inflicts that wound
Players get a max of 20HP and 4* wounds total (every -5HP) - but dropped to 0HP triggers a Critical Injury which is determined by the damage received along with the 3 previous wounds
With that information compared to a chart, your critical injury could be anything from non-fatal crippling pain, to a punctured lung is lethal if left alone, to a pierced heart which is fatal
Armor also factors into this system, and so long as your characters have AP remaining, their armor can soak damage from most damage types (except acid & piercing)
When your AP has ran out, your armor is broken, but you can still roll to determine if your broken armor can negate some damage, but will mostly be ineffective
The roll is determined from custom dice from Cursed City, and at max will only negate two points of damage if rolled successfully
Whoah! Thanks for making this video! This is weirdly brilliant timing. I actually 100% hate 2 things that are in TTRPGS: hit points and initiative. I think both are cumbersome and that there must be a more elegant solution. We played a game last night that was basically a modified version of Knave. OK so it was Knave but with Grit, Skills, Wits, and Mojo as attributes instead of the traditional 6. Also did a point buy rather than 3d6 rolls.
ANYWAY, I am glad my searches caused the algorithm to recommend this video, because I subscribed immediately. The next thing I need to sort out is a magic system that is neither Knaves' nor Vancian.
To be fair, I've played enough variants of PBTA games with wildly different systems for tracking health, from clocks, to emotional damage, to an injury tracker.
While the games are fun, I absolutely hate tracking my character's condition in them.
I've found that I prefer something more like Starfinder's system, where you have very low "Hitpoints" that are hard to restore, with a large buffer of "Shields" which are more easily restored, to soak up the superficial damage.
Basically just hitpoints with a Halo 2 style shield.
It adds complexity, and helps distinguish between scrapes and deep wounds, without turning my character's health into a literal chore.
Every game that tries something clever to track my condition makes me sit there going
"What is this mechanical bloat doing here? I'd rather be playing the game than filling in my injury sheet, and tracking my doom themomenter's relation to the wellness wheel"
Totally agree.
I like how Mutant Year Zero does health: Your attributes take damage, and if one of them hits 0, you are broken, not dead, just out of commission until you heal. There a few other ways health is done in other Year Zero Engine games, but this is a great one, specially since it ties with the Push Roll mechanic (basically rerolls) and gaining points you can use to activate mutations.
A man after my own heart! Glad the Almighty Algorithm unearthed this video from earlier this year for me!
I like the options on display here. After all, while one element you have to look at is how HP impacts your character, another is how to manage that type of number, but then another is how stressful it is.
Not joking here. Sometimes we play games to get away from life, so having things become even more stressful is not great, BUT here in this display of other ways to handle HP, you showed some VERY stressful ones as well as some that honestly feel very relaxed but still meaningful.
Everyone has different tastes, and I enjoy that while you don't like bloated HP systems, you let others know it is okay to like it but also that there are other systems that could scratch that itch in a better way.
Cortex prime complications system is such a good mechanic. If you are a GM that does not like the idea of killing the player but still want's to put some stakes... this is the system for you!
another more crunchy system worth taking a look at might be Burning Wheel; it has players track each wound independently, only adding together their effects (i.e. a level 4 "light" wound and level 6 "midi" wound don't combine to become a level 10 "mortal" wound, but they do combine the -1D and -2D effects for a total of -3D). An upshot of this is to make combat both brutally punchy but not terribly lethal, since you're only at risk of death on taking a serious hit, which is pretty rare, but a series of light and moderate hits can quickly render you incapacitated.
Excellent work, you gave amazing examples, pros and cos of each, and flowed very seemlessly from one to another.
Top tier stuff!
With a lot of retro clones/OSR games, HP often feels sameish. It is amazing, after watching this, how HP can differ so much with each game. I gotta give especially Rhapsody of Blood a try for sure especially with that mechanic you mentioned.
Personally, I like a good numerical-representation-of-wellbeing, but find it odd that so many systems opt to count DOWN instead of UP: There's max HP and current HP, and damage is subtracted from the current. When you could just as easily have a constant HP (or damage limit or whatever you want to call it) and add up the damage you take until it reaches that number. Mathematically the two concepts are pretty much identical, but counting down requires you to track two meanings of "HP" (max and current) which can be just slightly fiddly in some situations, and relies on subtraction, which most people find a tiny bit harder than addition. Plus, if you want to have escalating consequences (so it's not just a binary dead/alive system), you need to either further divide the max HP (you're bloodied at half your max, etc.) or else get negative numbers involved (KO'd at 0 HP, dead at -5, etc.), both of which, again, are slightly fiddly. In a count UP system, you could just have different damage limits that mean different things. (E.g.: You're bloodied when you've taken 5 damage, or 5 x level for a progressive system, KO'd when you've taken 10, dead when you've taken 13.) Again, the math should all work out the same way regardless, but insomuch as there's any practical difference at all between counting down HP and counting up damage, I feel like UP has a slight edge in pretty much every regard, yet the large majority of games continue to go with DOWN by convention.
That's a very good point.
Though any game with accessible healing will still see a fair bit of subtracting, and it could make rules a bit more cumbersome especially around dying and reviving.
Something I will have to think further on.
WEG Star Wars was the first game I played w/o hit points and I loved it. Once we were playing in D&D around level 20 hit points were to large to feel like the game was even dangerous. After WEG I started collecting games that did it differently Shadowrun, Vampire (have you ever noticed many of the games that did not use HP used dice pools?). I am a huge fan of Cortex and Cypher now and how those systems work. Thank you for introducing me to Sentential Comics (another game that does this in an interesting way). My main complaint you stated well at the beginning, it is hard to think HP mean anything when characters can loose 99% of them and not even be winded. Great video.
Sentinel Comics and Cyberpunk Red are the only HP systems out there I still like. SC because the loss of them literally changes your abilities (much like the card game can) and with CP:R you might have some 35 to 45 to start, but shotguns do 5d6 and grenades 6d6 so you lose them quick (and even faster with crit hits).
To be honest D&D was not made to play as level 20, it
was made to reach it. level 20 campaigns are usually boring.
Cairn has an interesting health system. It does have HP but it’s only a buffer for damage. Once you’re out of HP, the damage is taken out of the appropriate attribute score for that type of damage.
This is the part where I tell people to play GURPS.
- Hit points are low and don't really go up during the course of play. Your armor may get better and your skills may get better, but usually not HP.
- You suffer half move and half dodge at
Yep, totally agree. Also the wound/fatigue systems tend to work well. You have a small pool called something like wounds and a larger pool that is more like fatigue. With fatigue easy to get back and wounds are slow to heal.
And like you said some game systems really limit your gains in HP as you go up in levels -- which is another easy way to solve the -- too many hit points problem.
*_"Tis' but a scratch!"_*
Completely agreed. Also the Quest one took you a year? no wonder your production quality is so good. I just plop myself in front of a camera and start talking on twitch, then upload the VOD to youtube lol
Oh, it took a year due to procrastinating and a bad brain hehe. Honestly the video that probably took the longest production-wise was my How to Play Cortex. That was probably 25+ hours of editing. And frankly, a VOD with great content, like your videos, is high quality in my book!
@@TheDungeonNewbsGuide Your How to play Cortex video is how I found your channel! And it's also my favorite game and I still recommend that video to people
I'm still an HP Apologist, personally 😅 BUT I do appreciate the insight into all these other systems I'd never heard of 'til now, there's definitely some interesting stuff in there to sink one's teeth into 🤘
I’ve taken the Crisis Pool module from Cortex and been using it in all my games to simulate macrological changes in the game world such as how big a social movement is getting, an army gathering strength for an invasion, a grand ritual and so forth. What I love about it is you can then split Crisis pools to simulate skisms or utilizing resources for new ventures or securing objectives, and I just love it! Not only that, but players can then interact with those pools during in game play and downtime with little to no conversion in scaling.
Can’t do that with hit points! You hear me D&D! I didn’t need your faith in me! All I wanted was for you to express pride in me! Why don’t you love me for who I am D&D!
I love Wildsea’s method. You don’t have HP. Instead, all of your cool abilities have a track. The shorter the track, the more powerful the ability. When you take damage you can check off the track to absorb the hit. The ability stops working when the track is full.
One nice thing about D20 Heroic Fantasy style hit points is that they're an easy way to communicate large power gulfs and growth. It's a good property to have in a genre where you grow exponentially more powerful over a campaign. Most other genres are more grounded (or at least maintain a narrower power band) and are therefore better-suited to other systems of condition tracking.
But you can also take a similar tack to the Burning Wheel or HeroQuest: Glorantha/QuestWorlds's respective Prowess or Mastery mechanics. Prowess lowers the success threshold of each die in your pool, whereas Mastery converts bonuses past a certain level to automatic success levels. Both systems keep numbers relatively small while allowing large power gulfs that render people below a certain level non-threats. Both systems also avoid traditional hit points, a decision they can get away with in a large power gulf context because of the fundamental dice mechanic.
As a game designer this kind of video rules! I don't have the time I'd like to look over all awesome RPGs out there and understand their different approaches to similar problems. This helps me narrow down my search when trying to borrow creative systems for my own stuff.
The old Silhouette system, from Heavy Gear/Jovian Chronicles (and my FAVORITE Tribe 8), did damage thresholds that caused wounds. Slight death spiral tendencies, but back then it seemed super innovative compared to but points. Daggerheart (terrible name, but system sounds neat) looks like it's going to be doing something similar that will also feel a little more mechanically modern.
I also like how Mutant and Masterminds took most of 3e and modified it so it was different but recognizable. A hit caused a saving throw on a matrix, usually causing penalties which made it more likely that a subsequent damage save would result in a ko. Seemed very cinematic at the time.
Waitasec - someone other than me loves Rhapsody of Blood? Gods, I've been waiting for someone to actually mention that little gem of a game.
I was thinking of big numbers and DungeonCraft talking about that earlier today.
The only difference between having max 25 hp and max and max 80 hp is one uses a calculator.
In the vampire rpg I’m making instead of having health you have a hunger die. Taking hits raises this die which makes you stronger but the bigger your die the more likely it is you lose control
Absolutely love this!
While I enjoy the whole idea of HIt Points, and will probably always use them, I understand where you're going with this and it makes sense. I think to help make things more interesting for those using the Hit Points mechanic that we're used to, that the PC is affected in some negative way to make surviving more difficult. I love modular game systems, specially when it comes to the rules that may or may not be utilized.
My man just discovered Warhammers hp system
I like a mix of both. HP represents how hard you are to kill but you can also add lingering or even permanent wounds on top of that. Get knocked out? You're suffering a penalty to rolls until healed, etc.
Put a small plate of fresh baked cookies (maybe 4 large or 8 small) in front of each player and say "your character dies when you've eaten all the cookies." Adjust the recipe (and quantity) for whatever type of snack your players find irresistible. I said cookies cuz my mom always baked my group sweets, and chocolate chip cookies were her specialty and everybody's favorite. If you wanna simulate D&D, give them each a large bag of salty chips or popcorn. Why do I always make food metaphors? Now I'm hungry again!
I think I already unwittingly play this way O_O
Do I spy with my little eye some pixel characters created with the Reroll character creator? I sure did!
My favorite RPG in the world is Mythras. It uses hitpoints, but...
- HP is locational and there is no universal HP bar.
- When HP drops to zero the limb stops working, if it's your head or torso you MIGHT die
- HP can drop into the negatives, -[max hp] is a "major wound" and that's where a limb might get lopped off and to the head or chest it's VERY LIKELY that you will die (this is rare)
Meanwhile armor actually absorbs damage. Like, potentially all of it. Also, every time someone attacks, you can parry, and you get luck for rerolls.
End result is a system where people will quite believably die if they get stabbed in the back several times, and damage tells an interesting story, but you don't get the early D&D issue of people dying because someone breathed on them.
Hit points are based on Hull Points, from a naval warfare game - this is part of why they're a binary state of just Alive vs Dead, because "basically fine" vs "catastrophic hull failure, the ship has sunk" as the two states made more sense there. They've been kept that way to avoid the Death Spiral though, yeah.
my favorite health system is mutants and masterminds, you have no hp, you roll to hit as normal, but if you hit, your enemy rolls to resist, and based on how they did on the check, based on degrees of failure, these being increments of 5 ontop of the difficulty of your attack, so considering you roll to resist an attack, these are the possible outcomes for each degree of failure
success - nothing happens
1° - you get -1 on the check the next time you would resist damage
2° - as 1° but you are also dazed until the end of next turn
3° - as 1° but you become staggered (which takes an action to get rid of), and if you were already staggered, you get the effect of the 4th degree instead
4° - you fall unconscious
note that unless there's a really huge disparity between you and the enemy, it will take a while before a 4th of failure is even possible. the idea is that this is a brawl, and characters are slowly wearing off, pretty cool narratively
and also there attacks with other outcomes besides "damage" like conditions and all that, and there's different defenses that can be targeted by different attacks and even be affected by other effects, a pretty cool and very horizontal system
Yes, agreed a great health system for super hero genre games.
@@quantus5875 well, I use m&m for all sorts of games, but eh, that's probably just me
Great content, as always !
I couldn't agree more. I personally don't mind death spirals as long as they are not too severe. It makes players think hey do I really wanna be in this combat. My all-time favorite system for tracking damage is the damaged track in the original cyberpunk. Every character has the exact same Damage Track no matter gunslinger or grease monkey. The player could choose different ways to protect this track with either augmentations or armor, but once damaged, it successfully dealt with the consequences that are exactly the same. So if the grease monkey or the gunslinger takes the serious wounds, their penalties are exactly the same. But those penalties are never automatic death sentences. When cyber punk became cyberpunk red and adopted your stereotypical hit point system. I bailed. Now, players are only trying to figure out the best combination of stats and scores to get a higher hit point level. I personally don't wanna have to think about that. A static one less piece of book keeping to deal with.
I like tracking HP and conditions but I do also enjoy games that don’t. (Thirsty Sword Lesbians is great, btw) After playing quite a few TTRPGs I think the real problem is the D&D 5e ruleset. I started out with 5e but trying out other games led me to realize how flawed it actually is.
@@hawkname1234 Nah, it’s cool. I don’t care if you think my opinion is credible. I shared a personal experience, you can take it or leave it. Or, you know, have your own personal experience and then tell people about it if you choose to.
HP is fine so long as it's kept relatively low imo. I personally really like how BRP and GURPS handle hit points - they almost never increase, instead only going up with their related stats do and only by a small amount. In addition, they both have the potential for permanent injury based on taking sufficient damage in a single blow.
In BRP, by default, if you take more than half your max hp in a single hit (much easier to do when the toughest of adventures may have as many as 18 hit points), you make a roll that determines whether anything permanent happens. If you use the locational hp optional rule, if you take more damage to a limb than 3 times its maximum hp, your main can only take up to two times the locational hp in damage, but the limb is permanently lost.
In GURPS, if you take more than 1/3 of your max hp in damage to a limb, you only take the 1/3 damage to your hp, but the limb is disabled. More than double, and the limb is gone without any further hp damage than just disabling. If you're below 1/3 of your hp, you're already in no condition to be fighting, at or below 0 you're making rolls to remain consciousness, and at or below negative hp (so if you have 10 max hp, -10), you're making rolls to not die. At negative 5 times hp, you just die and at negative 10 times hp, your body is annihilated.
Honestly, I like the death spiral in RPGs - most fights shouldn't be to the death, and surrender/running away should always be an option.
Great stuff as always Klaus!
Aces! These are some great games mentioned. There's the whole BRP family if you want to play more traditional games. With CoC, RuneQuest and Pendragon. All of them has some seriously dangerous HP and Wound Systems that keep you on your toes and it never inflates the values, and those are as old as D&D.
In Rolemaster and HARP, HP exist and are wittled down with regular damage, but they represent pain, concussion and minor blood loss. They are not the means by which you kill your enemy. That is what Crits are for, ranging from severed arteries (massive bleeding draining HP like there's no tomorrow), to severed tendons disabling arms and legs, to severed neck sending the head flying 1D10 feet in a random direction.
One of the biggest reasons that the Hit Point systems are so prolific is because they are simple. All the ones you mentioned are fine and exciting if your gaming group enjoys them, but as far as wide spread appeal they will never catch on. Another thing that I find interesting is that modern game designers like to come up with new nifty mechanics that dump more work onto the Game Master. I wonder if this has helped proliferate the shortage of GMs? For example, all these powered by the apocalypse gmaes are great, but with each roll having so many possibilities backed into the rules it heaps a lot of extra work onto the GMs. The Sypher system makes the most sense to me and add the least amount of extra work onto the GM. :) Great video by the way.
Counterpoint - I have been running games for over 37 years. I started with the 1983 B/X D&D sets. I have a personal collection now of over 300 RPGs (between print and PDF, almost 80 of that is in print).
I'll play if I have to, but I will no longer and likely never again run a D20 Framework game with all those HP that mean NOTHING.
I can remember PbtA/FitD rules easily. I can remember Cortex. I can do Savage Worlds and even Year Zero Engine games largely from memory.
While D20 Frameworks might use "simple" HP _the entire rest of those games are anything but._ I ran Candela Obscura for a new table 2 weeks ago. We met, did session 0 character creation, and played the entire adventure _that I prepped in my head on the drive over_ in about 3 hours. You can't do that with D20 Framework games.
I think any good GM can run any game off the hip, and you sound like an exceptional GM, but that is not the average GM. That being said, an HP system is still easier for most players to understand. It is the predominant style of health in a video game and most of the 5th edition wave of players were well acquainted with the concept before they sat at a table to play a role-playing game. That being said there are a lot of games easier than D20 games, and a lot of them still use Hit Points. Savage Worlds and the Year Zero Engines are great systems. @@opscontaylor8195
A GM that runs D&D with my group had an aswer to this. The hit points isn't your % alive, it's your % to keep up the fight/your will to live. When that hits 0 is when the 'actual' damage happens. Personally I prefer something wounds based. Or even a litttle more granular - you can take x major wounds and twice as many minor wounds and just 1 critical wound.
You're not entirely wrong. HP in D&D and Pathfinder is rather inelegant. Consequences in FATE would be my favourite system, but like everyone, I am also a sucker for BIG numbers.... :)
Then again, Consequences in FATE lead me to have to deal with "self-inflicted electrified arm that is now broken beyond use" for too many sessions to count.
Yeah, it isn't a perfect system, that's for sure. I've seen that occur and once it happens it's hard to just handwave like "Well, maybe we'll just clear this up because it isn't fun at this point." But I think it's a step in the right direction and can work in some settings better than others.
I like many things in PF2 ... but I despise that it uses HP more and more since every fight takes hours. And yes, you DID 375 damage to me ... but don't worry, I'll just attack you with life-steal in return, it's all good!
HP is really good for portraying characters as demigods who can continuously hits and can only really be "got" by a fatal blow.
It also makes things like "gain more damage when below 50% HP" be easier.
Plus, big numbers make brain happy.
HOWEVER, HP is a really flawed system for anything else *but* epic fantasy rpgs.
I am creating a TTRPG (work in progress) and it uses a 3 action system. Characters have around 9-19 HP with an average of 12. But they are split into Levels if injury so effectlovely a character has like 8 HP.
if you are non injured or mildly so you have 3 actions a turn, moderately injured and you have 2 actions a turn, severely injured 1 action, critially injured and you are incacaicated, one level below is uncnociousness and then dying.
There is a resource that more fighting type characters have like 1 or 2 times a day which allows to reduce for a round yours injury level by 1. But each inury still has consequence. In additon if you go down two or more injury levels in the same turn (which with 3 shots of a 1d3 + 1 from a heavy pistol can happen quite easily) you gain a long term injury which is imposed by DM discression. (One of my beta testers was his by an electric shot for 9 damage and his arm nervous system was damaged and it now flickers randomly, even in combat. Usually at times of strees)
Can you talk about the D&D magic system and why you hate it so much? Pleeeeease.
I wouldn't say haaaate...but I think I may just have to start scripting that video!
@@TheDungeonNewbsGuideRight, Hate is a strong word. How about "dislike with the intensity of a thousands suns"?
The magic is the best part of D&D. Playing a high level spellcaster is a hoot. Things can get very weird. For straight combat I’ll take basic role playing system Runequest and Stormbringer are great. Being a high level Druid calling lightning shape shifting throwing out wall of fire.
This is why I like conditions from CofD or harm from BitD.
Speaking of Blades in the Dark. Any chance your One More Multiverse review will be part of your next How To Play?
7th Sea's Death Spiral was a good idea. Taking a major hit will either cause critical injuries that hinders you or adrenaline rushes that boost your rolls.
But my biggest complaint about HP and combat is that if a character is out of combat, then so is the player... kinda. They can help with strategies, but they aren't really able to do anything narratively for most games.
memento mori is a TTRPG without hit points at all! in fact, you don’t really have stats either. (the closest thing to stats is extremely affected by damage you take, which also affects them AS A CHARACTER, so all damage is plot relevant!)
As somome who isn't exactly 'jazzed' about DnD combat, I can appreciate looking at changing the rules around HP and damage for the sake of improving things.
But this video does just feel like a shoutout to ither TTRPGs. Which granted yeah if they have better systems call it out and hopefully those better systems become more mainstream.
But I am one of those ppl tha really doesn't want to switch to or a learn a whole new game-system for a few minor improvements. Plus I coukd easily end-up jerry-rigging together multippe TTRPG rulesets into a likely over-complicated amalgamation that NO-ONE else is going to feel comfortable learning/playing.
Like as good as these things sound I'd rather just make-up my own (simple) system/rules for combat at that point tbh. But that's probably just me idk.
Agreed with the HP excess issue; the Storyteller system (World of Darkness), with health levels that increase your penalties the more health levels of damage you've taken, and different healing rates based on the type of damage you take, is both more elegant, and incentivizes making sure not to get hit in the first place...
Older Shadowrun (maybe newer SR, too -- haven't really looked over any of the newest edition) had the Lethal and Nonlethal boxes and wounds system. Mutants and Masterminds has the damage/toughness saves, with accumulated minor failures acting as penalties to further saves, making an eventual failed save with more serious consequences an increasing probability.
Slightly disappointed you didn’t mention Into the ODD and it’s offspring that use HP as “hit protection” (which like stress comes back after combat) and represents your characters ability to avoid getting hit, then once it runs out you begin to loose from you ability scores and if one of those stats hits 0 they are out.
I've actually never had a good chance to drive into a Into the Odd, but you've just convinced me to!
Great video. The biggest issue, to me, is levels. Most of the hp issues you mentioned are ultimately because level based games (which are basically just the D&D family, unless i'm forgetting something) all have this never-ending escalation factor. Other VERY trad games like RuneQuest and Traveller do not have these issues, nor do Shadowrun or WoD (either line). But because even among designers so many only play D&D its basically a closed bubble circle-jerk. Oh well...
The last time I ran D&D 5th edition I ran it "Grimdark" style for Eberron. Everything else was pretty much the same except HP. They were simply CON+Level+Size Mod (Medium = zero, +/- 5 for each above or below).
You want to see a game of D&D where they actually talk, negotiate, and role play? Do that. When they don't have the 'magic plot buffer' and can go down from any good blow/spell, they get a lot more creative.
Course, after that game that table moved on to Savage Worlds and Mutant Year Zero with me, because after they saw you don't have to deal with all the high numbers, why go back?
@@opscontaylor8195 yeah. I'd played a lot of heavily houseruled D&D 3e before I found nWoD (now Chronicles of Darkness) and realized there were other things. I, two, have never gone back, lol
It just doesn’t make sense that killing monsters or acquiring gold causes a character to suddenly be able to withstand more damage.
Excellent and fair video!!! I like games that have HP and game that don't. When I play a game that has HP we keep it low (Index Card RPG or Shadwodark). I cannot do the PF2e/5e high level games where an several sword strikes in one round cannot kill a typical PC. Savage Worlds has a nice system for wounds and other effects that matter.
Yes ! Thank you.
As a fellow Mask enjoyer, I 100% relate to this.
To the point that your video decided me to convert my future DnD of Pax Elfica campagne in one of thoses systems.
Hit points are a staple in games. It is cool to show alternatives. I am personally fine with traditional hit points. I use them in my game. Yet I did think of an alternative. One unconventional game mechanic is level scaling. I am such a big fan of level scaling. I love exploration more than other aspects of gameplay. With level scaling, I can explore the game world freely and still find an appropriate challenge. I guess it is possible to use an alternative method for tracking health. There is no point in making hit points and damage increase as one levels up. If the opponents are always going to be the same level, it will just cancel out. There can definitely be a way to simplify hits. Every damage dealing attack can just do one point of damage. Then each creature has about 4-8 hit points. Maybe that would work, especially for a game that doesn't focus on combat. Maybe leveling up merely increases the amount of attacks one knows. The extra attacks can be things like status conditions and utility abilities. The player character is more versatile but not really stronger. Maybe that can work.
Well, you've officially sold me on the fact that I need to play Die and grab Blades in the Dark. My wallet curses you!
Why have your wallet curse me, when I can curse you with some sessions?? :D
@@TheDungeonNewbsGuide ....the sooner the better, you're on.
If you watch a movie, how many hits does enemies/npc's/characters take before falling?
Depending on genre it will differ. It's part of our session zero discussion
Its so weird that the most popular tabletop games for both roleplaying and wargaming, dnd and Warhammer, both have very archaic game mechanics
I'm such a poser I don't even know enough about ttrpgs to really add to the discussion but damn it I'm gonna leave a comment anyway!
In video games, HP makes sense and is quick and sensible... But in TTRPGs, I hate the extra math, especially as a GM trying to make balanced encounters.
The simplified Wound system and Mooks that go down on the first wound are why I started running Savage Worlds, and oh my gods I have not looked back since. I can make an encounter in minutes, and I can run more than one combat per session if I want to, because they go by relatively snappy!
I have designed a Digimon system recently. The Digimon are purely hit-points because that feels right.
Tamers have a Digital Field that is also hit-points for protection from crazy stuff, but also analogue health that is basically mundane. If their hit points not zero all Digimon Attacks Rookie level snd above become Wounds.
In a bag you have 6 d6s of green colours, next on the table black or red dices in a bowl for everyone.
When attacked use the green dices to beat the opponents dices. If one doesn't, add a black or red dice into the bag and remove the green dice by giving it to the dm.
When a black or red die is taken instead of a green, you add automatically another red/black dice to the bag unless you manage to roll a 6 on it.
When you remove 2 black/red dice from the bag, open the bag and if there isn't any green left, you are dead. If one is still in there you fall unconscious due to your wounds.
When combat is over, do a medicine check to see your wounds by opening the bag.
If all dice are red/black you fall unconscious and are dying, if you have black/red dices but still have green ones, you are wounded. The severity depends on the amounts and will need more time the more severe it is.
Simply an idea I have for health
I think that Hit Points should be divided on natural points and armor points, armor being what gives playable races most of their HP but penalties depending on the kind of armor they're wearing like increased damage taken against lightning and fire damage or reduced mobilty and stealth.
Also different states of being brutally beated, heck divide it on limb damage and different evasion die values for each limb, making the head harder to hit (cuz one well placed hit and basically you're dead) while the torso could be the easiest to hit.
So, fleshy damage would need rest and healing while armor damage needs repair/replacement.
here here, it's my main problem with Dungeon World. I'd much prefer if it went for the more standard harm/conditions levels. So I spent this weekend faffing about with that.
I dunno if it fixes that problem, but check out Chasing Adventure, which is a spiritual successor to Dungeon World that leans more onto the PbtA design while removing more of the D&D holdovers of DW.
@@yamazaki752 Cheers, I'll check it out
Thank you
I hear a lot of people complain about Health Points, and yes these are Health Points, even if they say Hit Points.
What is the difference? Health Points is a pool of Health, that has to be reduced by the amount of damage.
Hit Points is a Pool of hits, that has to be reduced by being hit.
Example; A character with 3 Hit Points, has to be hit 3 times. A character with 3 Health Points has to be hit for the damage of 3 health.
Meaning, a Health Point system, can be 1 hit = dead or x amount of hits of the lowest possible damage of 1.
The game DnD took their system from, used Hit Points.
A Fighter had 3, a Archer had 2, and a Mage had 1.
Each time an attack of either Weapon (Melee weapons), or Magic Missile (Arrows or Magic), you rolled to see if you hit. If they hit, it would always reduce the Hit Points, by 1. No more, no less.
But since this was a War Game, as in there is TONS of "Characters" since it is Two Armies fighting each other. These numbers were very, very, very hard to keep track of.
And there is not a single system out there, that does not use some kind of health system.
Example; Mutant, a Swedish Pen and Paper game from 1984.
There if 4 Attributes:
Styrka (Strength).
Kyla (In this meaning it translates to Callousness otherwise it would mean Cold).
Skärpa (In this meaning it translates to Acuity, otherwise it would mean Sharp).
Känsla (In this meaning it translates to Empathy, otherwise it would mean Feeling).
Now each of these Attributes can go from 1 to 5 depending on your Job, like a Field Medic would be able to have 5 in Känsla. Since the Job is about the manipulations and treatment of other mutants, which uses the Känsla in their skills. You have 14 points in total, and these effect you HIGHLY.
Example, you are required to have 1 point in each attribute.
So a mutant with 5 Styrka, 2 Kyla, 3 Skärpa and 4 Känsla, in the original ruling, this would mean, the mutant has 10 Hit Points of Endurance Damage (Physical damage), 4 Hit Points of Mental Damage (Psychological damage, that can cause Panic, Fear, Rage), 6 Hit Points of Perception/Senses Damage (Similar to panic and fear, but more in that you stop focusing, and rushes over things, not seeing things as they are.) and last but not least 8 Hit Points of Emotional Damage (Sorrow, Sadness, Depression, and so on).
Some might say, that sounds bad.
As an experienced player and Game Leader (Spel Ledare), that 10 of Physical Health, can go down in 1 turn, because the game is high risk, low reward. Every encounter, every mission, everything, has to be put into a realistic manner. The combat is not easy, but fun. When a plan works, it feels great, when you make a mistake, you FEEL it.
On the newest edition, every point in a stat equals 1 Hit point. So it is even easier to die now.
Because this is how the combat works.
First; Weapons have 1 or 2 damage. Every weapon can have a special feature, or effect which applies to how many dice, or how the weapon works.
Second; You can have up to 10 Dice, per Attack, depending on your Styrka/Kyla, Weapon Bonus, and Weapon Skill.
Example I make a mutant that has 1 Styrka, 5 Kyla, 4 Skärpa, 4 Känsla. Then put all my Training Points into Skjuta of +3 (Shooting).
This gives me a base of 8 Dice to use, then I get a Rifle with a +2 Dice, and I have the max 10 Dice to roll.
Now this means, that I need 0 to 10 bullets to use for the weapon. Since I can still fail every roll.
From 2-5 on a Roll is Neutral = Nothing Happens.
1 = Fail
6 = Success
Total Successes: Success Rolls Minus the Failed Rolls = Total Hit Points.
Then I can choose if it should do damage, dedicated to what the weapon does. So lets say I got 2 fails, 4 successes, 4 Neutrals. With a Rifle I can either do 4 damage, or I can do 2 damage and an effect like crippling, disarming, and a few more choices. And since every character has between 1 to 5 Physical Hit Points, lets say this one had only 1. This means I can do 3 Critical Damage to them, so they might just die from one hit. And same applies to the Players.
There is even a Rule in the book saying "Let them Die." as Death is very common in the game. It is a Post Apocalyptic game after all.
Every Critical Damage, range from a annoying debuff, to permanent debuffs, to if you don't fix it within the next X ingame time, you die. So Fighting becomes less wanted, because you will always have more enemies against you, than your 4 man group. But Gangs out in the Zones are often if not always hostile, so you have these forced points. And Feral Mutants, Rogue A.I, and more, wanting to eat, destroy or just exterminate you. It is not a friendly world.
And the enemy can also use your weakest Hit Point, for their advantage. And yes, even Mental Damage, can cause a Critical Damage, which can make the character kill themselves. A mutant that sustained more Kyla or Skärpa damage than they can handle, can get heart attacks, they can stress themselves to the point where they start puking their guts out. And more.
So for me, having Health Points, allows me to be more risky, to be more active in combat.
The death spiral while a good reason for not having stacking negative effects as a character getting more injured there is a larger more important issue. If you keep having negative effects it just adds more things the players need to keep track of. You talk about team dynamics and PF2e focuses a lot on this with ways for players to contribute stat effects in combat. However when it comes to D&D 5e vs PF2e I hear the common complaint is too many stat things to keep track of which alter the numbers. Because it's AC vs ATK then trying to remember all the stat effects impacting the roll.
The guard system mentioned I've seen similar things in other games as it's basically just two HP pools. Be it Guard/Stamina/Whatever there is pool that reflects characters ability to avoid damage before they are actually hurt with HP being very small in these systems. While I understand the appeal as it means an injury is just as deadly at any level but rather the characters ability to avoid that injury then grows with level I think it suffers the same issue with stacking stats, making things more complex.
There is a reason D&D is the biggest name in the TTRPG space and that's cause it keeps things simple. The majority of players just want some basic math the facilitate their RPG adventure and don't wanna have to worry about all these complex systems. It's why a lot of the other systems mentioned have fairly niche audiences. There are some people who like that complexity but the masses tend to go with what's simple and HP is simple.
Personally I like PF2e system the best. Sure it just has basic HP but I don't really like the idea of at curtain points of damage like 50% HP you suffer curtain debuffs as it also makes it feel like you injured the same way in every fight if you go down in HP. Instead the heavy use of status effects achieve the same outcome as it's separate from damage, like if you throw dust in someone's eyes that might not be HP damage but their blinded effects their ability to hit. If monster has a terrifying roar the players might cower in fear negatively impacting their ability to fight. So there are a lot of abilities, spells, and etc that can impact the fight so that while getting the enemy to 0HP is the goal, there are other ways to hinder the enemy and help allies beyond just causing damage that also impacts HP.
Having done systems with things like Stamina I tend to just view HP as stamina. Because you wanna talk realism the human body is pretty fragile and in most cases any major injury has you completely out of the fight. Even if your not unconscious it's pretty bad to the point you can't really defend yourself or attack. Which doesn't really fit the fantasy adventure theme most are going for.
I was half expecting you to pull out that horror-themed TTRPG where you use a jenga tower to make skill checks and collapsing it means your character dies; no HP tracking whatsoever, to a degree :P
A big problem with hit points is also their distribution, giving pathetically few on level 1, and then incresing them by around 70% per level, making characters turn from toothpicks to sponges within a few levels
My old, OLD OLD 2e hack was a simple "triple your full dice of hitpoints at level 1 and add your con mod, then your con bonus each level from then on, to a minimum of 1" 1st level 18 con fighter with 34 HP might sound ridiculous, until you realize, at level 20 he tops out at 110 HP, instead of 280.
it works on every edition and keeps enemies that do not have save or die stuff more relevant
@@JSHADOWM Damn, thats a pretty good system. The scaling might be a bit on the lower end, but definetely useable. I'm runnign currently a rework of 5e, and also increased hit points at level one to just under twice the usual amount, with regular scaling afterwards, but depending on the setting, i might steal your system, i think it could fit really well into really high realism settings.
I like the way Shadowrun dose HP and armor. The math is minimal and wounds are significant and impactful. The World of Darkness games have similar systems but I'd rather not play them. XD
Great video!
Mr.facts is that you?
It is, but feel free to call me Klaus. :D
@@TheDungeonNewbsGuide still, great content on every channel
Did a double take at "Thirsty Sword Lesbians"
I like the GURPS system.