My table has pretty much dropped 5e/PF entirely in favor of Blades/Scum & Villainy, but the clocks are 100% something I would use if we ever went back to 5e. I would honestly use it more for setting up interesting non-combat scenarios where the players would describe how their skill checks would contribute towards the challenge clock (and I'd set DC based upon how good a fit with the challenge their choices were). Tracking world events is also a good idea, but it would be a huge miss to not also include clocks as a means of driving non-combat tense situations. For the Devil's Bargain, I also like the idea of granting a +5 on a roll afterwards (honestly even more than granting advantage ahead of a roll), but would personally never have the consequences be a secret from the player. At our Blades/S&V table, my players often come up with FAR more interesting devil's bargains than I offer, and I like it being a literal bargain as part of play. "I really feel like I need to succeed at this role, and THIS is the fictional consequence I'm willing to accept in order to attain that success" makes for some really fantastic table interactions.
@@wizardsling That's how we do most of our consequences at our table. Ultimately, it's on the GM to decide what actually happens in the fiction, but once the players are bought in to this way of playing they are willing to create some pretty wild scenes for themselves through devil's bargains. As an example; In our S&V game the other night, we were in a facility that had been overrun with pod people. Limited incursion, not yet totally out of control. We were going to nuke the site from orbit on the way out, but one of the players wanted to make certain a roll went well and pro-offered that one of these creatures would escape the facility ahead of it being destroyed, and that the character would feel like they were responsible for that. This set up future adventures, and everyone at the table said yes enthusiastically.
Since learning about the Flashback system from Blades, it's fully recontextualized the Artificer's Flash of Genius ability for me. Would an intelligence based ability using a reaction to turn success into failure be represented in-game as...yelling a warning to somebody? No way! Narrate the flash of genius as something the artificer foresaw as a potential problem and planned accordingly. Somebody fails a con save against poison? The artificer prepared a pouch of smelling salts that let you power through. Failed a persuasion check? The artificer has a tailor-made bribe prepared for this particular NPC. For an intelligence class, I think it makes much more sense to foresee problems and have solutions as needed by the dice than a simple "Hey, watch out!"
That’s a great one! I have an aversion to the reaction-based messing with die roll mechanics that seem to become ever more popular at WotC’s (c.f. Guidance and Bardic Inspiration in the new UA) precisely because I find them hard to incorporate in a non-silly narrative. Your idea to narratively frame the Artificer’s ability with a flashback is a flash of genius.
The way I saw Flashbacks being incorporated into 5e was, when preparing for the heist each PC gets one flashback to use at any point during the heist they are preparing for. Then during the heist, they can call for use of said flashback, they describe what they were trying to do to prepare for that situation, DM calls for a roll that is appropriate for what they are describing to determine success or fail.
I have a similar rule to that devil's bargain to the system I'm working on that I call partial successes, where if you roll 4 or less under the target number you can get a Bane (essentially something unlucky) to the result or choose to fail. The inverse is that if you roll 4 above the target number then you get a Boon (essentially something lucky, there are no crits in this system). Still juryrigging the system, but definitely enjoying the mechanic so far
I have started allowing flashbacks at the cost of inspiration (or a hero point in pathfinder 2e). It’s not quite as good as Blades’ stress mechanic, so I’m on the lookout for a better ‘cost’, but I have found that players knowing they can flashback really overcomes over-planning when doing anything vaguely heist related.
A vice in a dungeon could still work. maybe they have to smoke their pipe or wittle a figuring or some other activity that helps them reset for the next day or short rest. stuff like that would be really powerful to add to a short rest to encourage roleplaying. I played a few forged in the dark games and decided that they could use their inspiration die like a fate point or flashback so it isn't just another roll more die thing
The "Loadout" rule sounds a bit like an ability from my favorite 3.5 Edition prestige class, the Packrat. It has an ability called "Right Tool for the Job", where a number of times per day you can roll to see if you just happen to have on you a single mundane non-magical item or piece of equipment that is below a specific price limit (I think it was 1 gold) and could plausibly fit inside a container available to you, i.e. you could find a lockpick in your belt pouch, or a scroll case in a nearby crate, but not a ladder in a backpack (extradimensional storage, like the bag of holding and the handy haversack, is very valuable to this class, especially since it has another ability that increases the capacity of _any_ container you pack by 50%).
In my games I've linked INT mod to amount of possible flashbacks to represent character's (not player) intelligence in planning ahead between long rests. Since 5e doesn't have the same structure as Blades and doesn't happen in single city (which is IMO best part of Blades), as long as the flashback isn't too far fetched I allowed it to happen, with possible test. Meaning: if they were camping outside a stronghold, then realistically they couldn't interfere with the guards inside the keep (as they approach the dungeon, they wouldn't have been able to poison guards there) , but they could flashback figuring out a weakpoint in walls, time when supply wagons come in or noticed passages using familiars. Last one useful to prevent shutting down whole table for a single familiar recon mission. Speeds up the dreadful 1.5h of planning only to fail at first roll. There were other uses: for example I've allowed casters to swap prepared spells - but only if the spell being taken out wasn't used. Picking up that equipment from a stash. Swapping items between characters. Similarly, the 2d20 system DUNE has sort of similar mechanic, where as an action a player can conduct DC 0 test - it covers tests like "I recon ahead", "I gossip around town". In turn every success gained from that roll is converted to momentum, representing character's preparedness. The said momentum is a resource and it can be used to bolster later rolls, create temporary assets (the guard we took down had a security card) or influence the game by adding attributes which influence whole scene (A sandstorm rolls in, which will allow the party to approach in concealment, but it will affect their vision too so they can walk into a trap)
Honestly just allowing players to spend inspiration to do a Blades style flashback is a great way to speed up planning before a heist. Just be clear the rule only works for that heist, and have everyone start with 1 inspiration
I have a mechanic similar to devil's bargain i call “recovery”. If you fail a skill check, you can roll again for a partial success or partial failure.
Thats not really how Devils Bargain works in Blades, but its an interesting approach. If I was going to add Devils Bargain I would run it closer to how it runs Blades. You and the rest of the players offer them something that can definitely go wrong that will happen if they succeed or fail. The pick one of the items that they think would be narratively interesting. And then for picking that they either get +5 (or whatever), or get Advantage on their roll. Then they roll. And hopefully the dice playout in their favor.
If you want to add more of the partial success options that blades work that makes the devils bargian meaningful, just allow success with a cost for failures that are under a certian threshold (EX: If it a DC15 challenge, if they roll a 10 or higher they can choose to succeed with complication).
Iirc, Aabria used this in EXU, and as you suggested, each pc got one flashback, but only for that heist. It worked out incredibly well, and of course, there was brilliant rp all around.
I've used the complication roll mechanic a lot in my D&D 5th edition campaign. Everyone knows that what happens between casing a heist and actually showing up for the job, something will change. This mechanic keeps my players (and myself) on our toes to see how things will change (such as more guards, fewer guards, etc.)
For the flashback; in my game Im thinking about letting the players spent Hit Dice to use the flashback rule. The number of HD they need to spent will be between 1 and 3, just as in Blades in the dark.
The devil's bargain is a great idea and I plan to use this feature in my next campaign. I have always hated that a close roll can sabotage that night's adventure. This is a good compromise. However, I have a question, is this if they miss by one, or if they miss period. I have a knowledge based system that goes like this. Roll Knowledge (Local) DC: 14 to recognize you are fighting a species of Hobgoblin. A DC: 17 to recognize that this species has an aversion to light and takes double damage from any radiant damage. A DC: 20 you are so familiar with this species you get advantage when you attack this combat. I use this for all kinds of skill checks, not just knowledge. I never tell them the DC just to roll to see what they know. So my question is, is the Devil's Bargain like this or just a miss by one. Flashback and loadout sounds awfully familiar. I have heard of a similiar mechanic but I can't remember which system it was. This is also a very good idea, preventing lag or lost time. Great video.
That loadout mechanic actually exists RAW in Pathfinder 2e in the form of the Prescient Planner and Prescient Consumable feats, as well as a few related class feats.
A lot of DMs forget to play out the scene once the player find the treasure. Most games I have played in they fast forward getting out the cave. To take a dragons hoard is going to take longer than a hour
One crucial philosophy you haven't mentioned here: never ever make the players feel like their characters are incompetent. (Blades in the Dark, page 197-198) Many people hate fumble mechanics (i.e. miss with a consequence), and I think this is why. In a gritty old-school game, dropping your sword makes people feel bad, especially in front of the other party members. Rather, word consequences as such that it doesn't feel like the player character does something stupid. Instead, the PC was competent in fighting, and sadly, so was the NPC. The outcome can be the same, but it's not the PC dropping the weapon or slipping on the floor, it's the enemy disarming them or swiping their leg. For me, this is a very important philosophy to get players to agree with me using consequences.
The Blades in the Dark features I'm missing in the 5E game I'm playing in at the moment is group actions and assists. Especially group actions. A group stealth action is a wonderful thing in Blades but doesn't work in 5E
Thats not how Long Rest works its just how everyone plays it. It does restore your HP but it doesnt remove wounds. Thats why spells use the wording "wounds" and does very little HP restoration. If you break your arm it is still broken after a long rest. HP is more like stamina.
As far as I know, there is no official system for "wounds" in 5e because there is no targeted damage in 5e. So anything to do with a broken arm or missing finger is home-brewed. As to wounds in pathfinder or other systems, I can't speak to that.
@Wizards & Wordslingers Lingering Injuries in DMG cover wounds that are supposed to be well.. linger past long rests. The way HP in 5e is "supposed" to work is more on a non-physical level. It's luck that is running out, it's stamina that is getting depleted and small bruises and stretches.. all that can indeed be "cured" during a good night's sleep. For all more serious injuries we have things like broken limbs, internal bleeding etc etc. Now those rules aren't perfect. Ost can be cured by simple cure wounds or other magical healing, but otherwise would often require several long rests and some checks to heal from.
@@wizardsling sure there is. Is an optional table on the DMG. Lingering wounds and injuries if I remember correctly. On our game we roll it when pc fails 2 death saves.
If you have to gamify between combats, then you aren't giving them enough imagination totm to start with. Battlemats and vtts hurt games now. Where once you imagine what happened now you have to see it. Also don't like the clocks. I just always knew where my players where in relation to time and space of the bad guys. Other systems have partial success. Sorely lacking in dnd. I dont like that blades has to make it a mechanic since its a thing in other systems. The flashback is very cool though. But as you mention it can be abused. Rule of cool is best, but you need a good and fair gm to make it work.
My table has pretty much dropped 5e/PF entirely in favor of Blades/Scum & Villainy, but the clocks are 100% something I would use if we ever went back to 5e. I would honestly use it more for setting up interesting non-combat scenarios where the players would describe how their skill checks would contribute towards the challenge clock (and I'd set DC based upon how good a fit with the challenge their choices were). Tracking world events is also a good idea, but it would be a huge miss to not also include clocks as a means of driving non-combat tense situations.
For the Devil's Bargain, I also like the idea of granting a +5 on a roll afterwards (honestly even more than granting advantage ahead of a roll), but would personally never have the consequences be a secret from the player. At our Blades/S&V table, my players often come up with FAR more interesting devil's bargains than I offer, and I like it being a literal bargain as part of play. "I really feel like I need to succeed at this role, and THIS is the fictional consequence I'm willing to accept in order to attain that success" makes for some really fantastic table interactions.
love the idea of letting players offer options for the devil's bargain. thanks for sharing!
@@wizardsling That's how we do most of our consequences at our table. Ultimately, it's on the GM to decide what actually happens in the fiction, but once the players are bought in to this way of playing they are willing to create some pretty wild scenes for themselves through devil's bargains.
As an example; In our S&V game the other night, we were in a facility that had been overrun with pod people. Limited incursion, not yet totally out of control. We were going to nuke the site from orbit on the way out, but one of the players wanted to make certain a roll went well and pro-offered that one of these creatures would escape the facility ahead of it being destroyed, and that the character would feel like they were responsible for that. This set up future adventures, and everyone at the table said yes enthusiastically.
Collaborative. Love it!
Since learning about the Flashback system from Blades, it's fully recontextualized the Artificer's Flash of Genius ability for me. Would an intelligence based ability using a reaction to turn success into failure be represented in-game as...yelling a warning to somebody? No way! Narrate the flash of genius as something the artificer foresaw as a potential problem and planned accordingly. Somebody fails a con save against poison? The artificer prepared a pouch of smelling salts that let you power through. Failed a persuasion check? The artificer has a tailor-made bribe prepared for this particular NPC. For an intelligence class, I think it makes much more sense to foresee problems and have solutions as needed by the dice than a simple "Hey, watch out!"
love it! artificers are such a reality-breaking class anyway, this makes perfect sense.
That’s a great one! I have an aversion to the reaction-based messing with die roll mechanics that seem to become ever more popular at WotC’s (c.f. Guidance and Bardic Inspiration in the new UA) precisely because I find them hard to incorporate in a non-silly narrative. Your idea to narratively frame the Artificer’s ability with a flashback is a flash of genius.
The way I saw Flashbacks being incorporated into 5e was, when preparing for the heist each PC gets one flashback to use at any point during the heist they are preparing for. Then during the heist, they can call for use of said flashback, they describe what they were trying to do to prepare for that situation, DM calls for a roll that is appropriate for what they are describing to determine success or fail.
Love it!
This is a really nice series. All killer, no filler, Just like these ideas!
I have a similar rule to that devil's bargain to the system I'm working on that I call partial successes, where if you roll 4 or less under the target number you can get a Bane (essentially something unlucky) to the result or choose to fail. The inverse is that if you roll 4 above the target number then you get a Boon (essentially something lucky, there are no crits in this system). Still juryrigging the system, but definitely enjoying the mechanic so far
nice! Love home-brew rules like these
I have started allowing flashbacks at the cost of inspiration (or a hero point in pathfinder 2e). It’s not quite as good as Blades’ stress mechanic, so I’m on the lookout for a better ‘cost’, but I have found that players knowing they can flashback really overcomes over-planning when doing anything vaguely heist related.
love it! I have trouble remembering to reward inspiration in games, so this is a good use of it
A vice in a dungeon could still work. maybe they have to smoke their pipe or wittle a figuring or some other activity that helps them reset for the next day or short rest. stuff like that would be really powerful to add to a short rest to encourage roleplaying.
I played a few forged in the dark games and decided that they could use their inspiration die like a fate point or flashback so it isn't just another roll more die thing
solid ideas! thanks for the comment
The "Loadout" rule sounds a bit like an ability from my favorite 3.5 Edition prestige class, the Packrat. It has an ability called "Right Tool for the Job", where a number of times per day you can roll to see if you just happen to have on you a single mundane non-magical item or piece of equipment that is below a specific price limit (I think it was 1 gold) and could plausibly fit inside a container available to you, i.e. you could find a lockpick in your belt pouch, or a scroll case in a nearby crate, but not a ladder in a backpack (extradimensional storage, like the bag of holding and the handy haversack, is very valuable to this class, especially since it has another ability that increases the capacity of _any_ container you pack by 50%).
yep sounds very similar! Like a non-magical version of divine intervention
In my games I've linked INT mod to amount of possible flashbacks to represent character's (not player) intelligence in planning ahead between long rests. Since 5e doesn't have the same structure as Blades and doesn't happen in single city (which is IMO best part of Blades), as long as the flashback isn't too far fetched I allowed it to happen, with possible test. Meaning: if they were camping outside a stronghold, then realistically they couldn't interfere with the guards inside the keep (as they approach the dungeon, they wouldn't have been able to poison guards there) , but they could flashback figuring out a weakpoint in walls, time when supply wagons come in or noticed passages using familiars. Last one useful to prevent shutting down whole table for a single familiar recon mission. Speeds up the dreadful 1.5h of planning only to fail at first roll.
There were other uses: for example I've allowed casters to swap prepared spells - but only if the spell being taken out wasn't used. Picking up that equipment from a stash. Swapping items between characters.
Similarly, the 2d20 system DUNE has sort of similar mechanic, where as an action a player can conduct DC 0 test - it covers tests like "I recon ahead", "I gossip around town". In turn every success gained from that roll is converted to momentum, representing character's preparedness. The said momentum is a resource and it can be used to bolster later rolls, create temporary assets (the guard we took down had a security card) or influence the game by adding attributes which influence whole scene (A sandstorm rolls in, which will allow the party to approach in concealment, but it will affect their vision too so they can walk into a trap)
great ideas!
Loving these "Steal these rules" videos, so interesting and useful!
Glad you like them!
Honestly just allowing players to spend inspiration to do a Blades style flashback is a great way to speed up planning before a heist. Just be clear the rule only works for that heist, and have everyone start with 1 inspiration
Solid idea!
I have a mechanic similar to devil's bargain i call “recovery”. If you fail a skill check, you can roll again for a partial success or partial failure.
nice!
Thats not really how Devils Bargain works in Blades, but its an interesting approach.
If I was going to add Devils Bargain I would run it closer to how it runs Blades.
You and the rest of the players offer them something that can definitely go wrong that will happen if they succeed or fail.
The pick one of the items that they think would be narratively interesting.
And then for picking that they either get +5 (or whatever), or get Advantage on their roll. Then they roll. And hopefully the dice playout in their favor.
If you want to add more of the partial success options that blades work that makes the devils bargian meaningful, just allow success with a cost for failures that are under a certian threshold (EX: If it a DC15 challenge, if they roll a 10 or higher they can choose to succeed with complication).
thanks for the feedback!
Iirc, Aabria used this in EXU, and as you suggested, each pc got one flashback, but only for that heist. It worked out incredibly well, and of course, there was brilliant rp all around.
Oh nice! I watched EXU and forgot all about this. I know Aabria is a fan of Blades
I've used the complication roll mechanic a lot in my D&D 5th edition campaign. Everyone knows that what happens between casing a heist and actually showing up for the job, something will change. This mechanic keeps my players (and myself) on our toes to see how things will change (such as more guards, fewer guards, etc.)
Like a luck check. Nice!
I have been toying with the idea of using flashbacks for inspiration. Or Hero Points.
Let us know how it goes!
Good suggestions. Thanks.
You bet!
For the flashback; in my game Im thinking about letting the players spent Hit Dice to use the flashback rule. The number of HD they need to spent will be between 1 and 3, just as in Blades in the dark.
nice! I like using hit dice as a resource
Cool ideas. I'll probably use these in Dragon Heist.
great idea!
Really great video and well-presented, useful information. Always glad to find more D&D creators out there.Thanks!
Thanks!
This just warned my subscription!!! Thank you !!!
Welcome aboard!
The devil's bargain is a great idea and I plan to use this feature in my next campaign. I have always hated that a close roll can sabotage that night's adventure. This is a good compromise. However, I have a question, is this if they miss by one, or if they miss period. I have a knowledge based system that goes like this. Roll Knowledge (Local) DC: 14 to recognize you are fighting a species of Hobgoblin. A DC: 17 to recognize that this species has an aversion to light and takes double damage from any radiant damage. A DC: 20 you are so familiar with this species you get advantage when you attack this combat. I use this for all kinds of skill checks, not just knowledge. I never tell them the DC just to roll to see what they know. So my question is, is the Devil's Bargain like this or just a miss by one. Flashback and loadout sounds awfully familiar. I have heard of a similiar mechanic but I can't remember which system it was. This is also a very good idea, preventing lag or lost time. Great video.
Thanks! I think devils bargain is only for close misses. Less than 5. At least. That’s how I rule it
ok that sounds right to me as well.
That loadout mechanic actually exists RAW in Pathfinder 2e in the form of the Prescient Planner and Prescient Consumable feats, as well as a few related class feats.
Ahh good to know!
Yummy only-ham sandwich
A lot of DMs forget to play out the scene once the player find the treasure. Most games I have played in they fast forward getting out the cave. To take a dragons hoard is going to take longer than a hour
Good point!
This video is very similar to a series of posts I made a few months back on a D&D discord I'm a member of 😅.
The Big Thing that I included that you didn't mention here is Faction Reputation.
Glad you enjoyed the video!
One crucial philosophy you haven't mentioned here: never ever make the players feel like their characters are incompetent. (Blades in the Dark, page 197-198)
Many people hate fumble mechanics (i.e. miss with a consequence), and I think this is why. In a gritty old-school game, dropping your sword makes people feel bad, especially in front of the other party members. Rather, word consequences as such that it doesn't feel like the player character does something stupid. Instead, the PC was competent in fighting, and sadly, so was the NPC.
The outcome can be the same, but it's not the PC dropping the weapon or slipping on the floor, it's the enemy disarming them or swiping their leg.
For me, this is a very important philosophy to get players to agree with me using consequences.
Totally agree. I don't use fumble mechanics in my games.
The Blades in the Dark features I'm missing in the 5E game I'm playing in at the moment is group actions and assists.
Especially group actions. A group stealth action is a wonderful thing in Blades but doesn't work in 5E
great ideas!
Ooooh I like this!
thanks for the comment, glad you found the video useful!
Thats not how Long Rest works its just how everyone plays it. It does restore your HP but it doesnt remove wounds. Thats why spells use the wording "wounds" and does very little HP restoration. If you break your arm it is still broken after a long rest. HP is more like stamina.
As far as I know, there is no official system for "wounds" in 5e because there is no targeted damage in 5e. So anything to do with a broken arm or missing finger is home-brewed. As to wounds in pathfinder or other systems, I can't speak to that.
@Wizards & Wordslingers Lingering Injuries in DMG cover wounds that are supposed to be well.. linger past long rests.
The way HP in 5e is "supposed" to work is more on a non-physical level. It's luck that is running out, it's stamina that is getting depleted and small bruises and stretches.. all that can indeed be "cured" during a good night's sleep.
For all more serious injuries we have things like broken limbs, internal bleeding etc etc.
Now those rules aren't perfect. Ost can be cured by simple cure wounds or other magical healing, but otherwise would often require several long rests and some checks to heal from.
@@wizardsling sure there is. Is an optional table on the DMG. Lingering wounds and injuries if I remember correctly. On our game we roll it when pc fails 2 death saves.
@@mke3053 yes, optional. It's not baked into the system.
Or you can just play blades in the dark?...
okay
If you have to gamify between combats, then you aren't giving them enough imagination totm to start with. Battlemats and vtts hurt games now. Where once you imagine what happened now you have to see it. Also don't like the clocks. I just always knew where my players where in relation to time and space of the bad guys.
Other systems have partial success. Sorely lacking in dnd. I dont like that blades has to make it a mechanic since its a thing in other systems. The flashback is very cool though. But as you mention it can be abused. Rule of cool is best, but you need a good and fair gm to make it work.
Thanks for the comment!