Designer Dave already confirmed the idea back in WC3 with Vanilla was that the Curse of Flesh was from the Old Gods (who back then were indigenous to Azeroth while the Titans were ancient aliens and/or ascended mortals who doubled as gods of creation).
I actually love the concept that “titan souls” were never actually meant to be titans, and instead the light/order aligned force is corrupting souls to turn into titans in the same way the void lords do
@@HaltRoboCop AND the dude is 100% right! You do not have to be religious to see that what ideologies these writers believe in our own world are translated into WOW universe and is happening all over Entertainment these days with these new wave of writers. Did you see what they did now in Dragon Age Veilguard? They put options for characterization as TRANS, the all Women character creation has male faces and viceversa almost and after you complete some quest you will be given dialogues options for choosing Gender Trans responses and to become a trans person. So tell me, why they need to translate what is happening in our own world with what is happening in a FANTASY WORLD? Yes, The Light and in someway Order in WOW were inspired by the Catholic Church and their doctrine in someway, but now because the writers are changed and they believe in ONE ideology especially, because there are not the OTHER ideologies or politics traslated into ficitonal universes like the Leftist non-sense of America that spread faster than anything in politics, the writers write only about that, by changing well established Lore and don't care for the Story or if it makes sense. It is happening ALL over Entertainment with these new wave of writers that CAN'T CREATE anything, anything original and are always doing changes to the Lore. In movies, series, other games... ALL over we see Good Guys transformed into Bad Guys and the Bad Guys are somewhat misunderstood or mistreated by the Good Guys. The story is not a bad per se, but when they are doing the exact same thing they see in our own world with the Church, is just bad, lazy writing...
Honestly I see this as the development of history or science. Everything is relative and most of the time we don't have enough data to know if the way we see the world is true. It's natural for the story of a world to change. In terms of WoW it also allow for greater flexibility and more three dimensional storytelling.
@@Maldanil The MCU and New Star Wars and (show on the BBC) and whatever Rooster Teeth is doing and whatever's on Netflix and whatever tumblr/reddit/others who deserve scorn are into today does not have great writing and no relevance to reality (especially not superhero stories or twitter/tumblr weeb stuff).
Yeah I’m with @Maldanil it’s a franchise that has had its story updated every few months for 20+ years. If you watch any show that comes anywhere close to running even half that long, its story goes a lot of the same way. It recontextualizes the base lore because it has to, the viewer has more context. And a consistent theme in WOW has always been questioning how valid the source of our information is, like the Naaru will always tell us the void is horrible and the bad guy, the burning legion would say they are the heroes, etc etc. It’s no different than arthas trying to convince us he is morally in the right
@@Masty0001 You sound like someone who considers the MCU high art that's relevant to reality. Do you consider Anduin Wrynn a well written character who reflects how successful conquerors/emperors/billionaires behave?
Damn. I was hoping that the void was the cosmic force behind the curse of flesh. It would've been fun to find out that the light was not actually the one responsible for seeding the worlds with life, but the void and the old gods. Except instead of "seeding" planets with life, they would've created it through corruption. Life as a cosmological force would've been nothing more than a biological weapon. Would've made one of the Elune puzzle pieces fit together because it would mean that she owes her entire existence to the Void, hence being an "upstart goddess." I guess I'm just looking for a silver lining in the Void. I'm trying to see their purpose beyond being just another Big Bad. There must've been a good reason for the First Ones to set up all these Zereths and give the void an equal seat at the cosmological table despite the fact that all it ever does is consume and destroy.
@@galten7361 I'm just trying to feel out the narrative and guess what the writers/devs were trying to do with the lore. This concept made some sense when combining some of the hints along the way. The First Ones seemed to place a lot of value on the evil and destructive cosmological forces. If they were powerful enough to remake reality, why didn't they just bottle them up or un-make them? They were likely responsible for creating the first Titans, too. And Blizzard's shown us that they can be pretty evil in their pursuit of Order. Plus, there's that hanging thread about Elune being an upstart goddess. Still trying to figure out what that means in the new context.
@@MateoArriza New Star Wars/MCU/BBC Sherlock/Game of Thrones/other show that le subverts expectations or is praised by redditors/tumblr/twitter/select women advocate found.
Actually I believe the old gods did give the curse/gift of flesh but Azeroth gave the earthen free will it never stated by the titan disc records that the curse came from Azeroth that those earthen only turned into diamonds like magni was and then chose to rebel.
Wonder at that point if the old gods were original inhabitants and simply distroted by the Titan's meddling with Azeroth and by that more extreme and extremely aggressive against anything TItan related - what would be pretty much the majority of mortal life on Azeroth directly or indirectly via the Well of Eternity (what overall is pretty much another Titan creation...). By the way: The nightelves started to worship Elune as the goddess "slumbered within the fount's depth during daylight hours", so Elune = coming fom the well of eternity = something that was created by the Titan's corruption of Azeroth so maybe a "Titanized" fragment of Azeroth?
It makes me wonder how Azeroth would look if the curse of flesh never happened but Azeroth still installed free will into titan constructs. would there still be a civilization but just of free-willed titan constructs? I guess most of the other races would still be there, Trolls, Taurens, Night elves and many other races do not strictly come from the Titans but are a result of Titans experimenting with life. Now I wonder if Blizzard would want to make short what if stories.
You know what that ain’t a bad possible plot. Maybe they captured fragments of that world soul and some how used Azeroth as a donor for it to allow it to grow along side Azeroth or perhaps infusing Azeroth with it. This could explain the whole elune thing a bit maybe? We don’t exactly know what Elune is aside from being a sister to the winter queen.
Azeroth herself creating free will for slaves and subverting the old gods curse of flesh I ’s better lore, but only if there is more for it. It never made much sense that good races like humans and dwarves are a pure result of old god corruption and end up being the ones fighting old gods, also we are told Azeroth influenced and controlled the development of all races on it including humans and dwarves who started off as Titan forged. We just weren’t detailed how and it makes sense. Likes of trolls may be entirely Azeroth’s creation with elves being an Elune assisted extra development or there is more to that too. But old god creations and corruptions don’t end as humans they become grotesque masses of flesh, and Ukdiar explains why the Titan keepers and machines didn’t go into over drive to kill all flesh if the curse of flesh was fatal flaw or total old god control - the implication was always Azeroth was invoolved and it isn’t new. It is just expanding existing lore now with more developments
@jonathangooding5020 1. The Humies and Dwarves and Gnomes were never just Old God spawns. All the way back in WC3 the idea was that the Titans made or spawned the Titanforged (who had no ties to the Light or Earthmother or dragons or any other divinities on Azeroth besides the Titans) with the Curse of Flesh turning them into beings of flesh. 2. The Titans in actual canon rather than post-Shadowlands fanon backed by retcons were not robo Nazis purging the fleshy and chaos untermenschen. Even all the way back in WC3 the Titans had no issue using Arcane (which was tied to the Nether rather than order magic) when setting up Azeroth while still opposing demons like the Eredar (pre-retcon Eredar). Them not just scrapping the Titanforged post-Curse of Flesh but rather incorporating them into their vision of Azeroth is well in character with how they were in WC3 and does not require retcons.
The titans are seen as invasive and controlling against Azeroth, but they also saved Azeroth from the Old Gods. Could Azeroth have saved herself and repelled their influence? Otherwise, the titans helped her and they should be thanked instead of being seen just as poorly as the OGs.
You do get that the Titans are the ones telling you, that they saved Azeroth. That's like asking 1940th germans if they are the bad guys or "save the world from the evil subhumans". Guess what they will tell you...
@@miriamweller812 bruh....without the Titans, the Old Gods would still rule Azeroth. They did in fact save Azeroth from the Old Gods and destroyed the Black Empire.
this is the very reason why WoW lore died after WotLK,,,, Blizzard Activision really ran the lore into the ground and is still stonping on its long dead corpse.
@@TheMarquisLovenorn Even Designer Dave (a developer who worked on the franchise alongside Metzen since the RTS games up to TBC) called out much of the lore for all the retcons and said that said retcons overall make it so that it's not a credible setting.
My fucking god every time I think about go back to WoW there's another unnecessary retcon to the lore, and all just for that stupid Denuser's fanfic to make sense
I was a huge fan of WoW and Blizzard up until Cata. They have really run the lore into the ground, and it is obvious that they have deviated away from and retconned a lot of the original lore that Metzen had sketched out for the game. WoW will always be Classic, TBC and Wrath. Everything beyond that is trash, IMHO.
Tell me you didn't play Legion, without telling me you didn't play Legion lmfao Dude Legion was the peak of lore, gameplay, and storytelling in WoW. And that was ALL Metzen OG lore.
@@monkeysk8er33 Legion had meh at best plotting with lore that makes past events even more ridiculous (see the Burning Legion having full fleets of spaceships that they somehow never used well in past invasions).
@galten7361 Yeah cause finally confronting the Legion on their own home turf, freeing/meeting the Titans, and Sargeras stabbing the fucking planet is "meh." Dude, you definitely don't know the Legion lore lol nobody can see all that and say "oh that was boring and not Metzen quality lore." I can't take you seriously at all
![The Story of Siren Isle - Patch 11.0.7 PTR [Lore SPOILERS]](/img/n.gif)
Is Azeroth the source of free will? Also get amazing deals with my discount code 'DORON' gvo.deals/Doron
Or maybe just maybe she was adopting them and makeing the titan forces better.
Titans call it “the curse of flesh” the void calls it “the gift of flesh”
Designer Dave already confirmed the idea back in WC3 with Vanilla was that the Curse of Flesh was from the Old Gods (who back then were indigenous to Azeroth while the Titans were ancient aliens and/or ascended mortals who doubled as gods of creation).
I actually love the concept that “titan souls” were never actually meant to be titans, and instead the light/order aligned force is corrupting souls to turn into titans in the same way the void lords do
@Masty0001 You must think being anti-Catholic or having villainous angels/churches is sooooo special and never done before.
@@galten7361 this dude is talking about wow lore and you respond with some shit about catholicism lol.
@@galten7361 Are you a genuine idiot?
@@HaltRoboCop AND the dude is 100% right! You do not have to be religious to see that what ideologies these writers believe in our own world are translated into WOW universe and is happening all over Entertainment these days with these new wave of writers. Did you see what they did now in Dragon Age Veilguard? They put options for characterization as TRANS, the all Women character creation has male faces and viceversa almost and after you complete some quest you will be given dialogues options for choosing Gender Trans responses and to become a trans person. So tell me, why they need to translate what is happening in our own world with what is happening in a FANTASY WORLD? Yes, The Light and in someway Order in WOW were inspired by the Catholic Church and their doctrine in someway, but now because the writers are changed and they believe in ONE ideology especially, because there are not the OTHER ideologies or politics traslated into ficitonal universes like the Leftist non-sense of America that spread faster than anything in politics, the writers write only about that, by changing well established Lore and don't care for the Story or if it makes sense. It is happening ALL over Entertainment with these new wave of writers that CAN'T CREATE anything, anything original and are always doing changes to the Lore. In movies, series, other games... ALL over we see Good Guys transformed into Bad Guys and the Bad Guys are somewhat misunderstood or mistreated by the Good Guys. The story is not a bad per se, but when they are doing the exact same thing they see in our own world with the Church, is just bad, lazy writing...
@@ScarlettSpitfyre you are 100% right. Everything serves a post-modern moral ambiguous narrative.
At this point, is there anything left in terms of major lore from the original? Seems everything is being retconned/changed these days.
Honestly I see this as the development of history or science. Everything is relative and most of the time we don't have enough data to know if the way we see the world is true. It's natural for the story of a world to change. In terms of WoW it also allow for greater flexibility and more three dimensional storytelling.
I wouldn't claim it's retconned, but more-so that we had only understood the Universe from the Titan's perspective and/or agenda.
@@Maldanil The MCU and New Star Wars and (show on the BBC) and whatever Rooster Teeth is doing and whatever's on Netflix and whatever tumblr/reddit/others who deserve scorn are into today does not have great writing and no relevance to reality (especially not superhero stories or twitter/tumblr weeb stuff).
Yeah I’m with @Maldanil it’s a franchise that has had its story updated every few months for 20+ years. If you watch any show that comes anywhere close to running even half that long, its story goes a lot of the same way. It recontextualizes the base lore because it has to, the viewer has more context. And a consistent theme in WOW has always been questioning how valid the source of our information is, like the Naaru will always tell us the void is horrible and the bad guy, the burning legion would say they are the heroes, etc etc. It’s no different than arthas trying to convince us he is morally in the right
@@Masty0001 You sound like someone who considers the MCU high art that's relevant to reality. Do you consider Anduin Wrynn a well written character who reflects how successful conquerors/emperors/billionaires behave?
Damn. I was hoping that the void was the cosmic force behind the curse of flesh. It would've been fun to find out that the light was not actually the one responsible for seeding the worlds with life, but the void and the old gods. Except instead of "seeding" planets with life, they would've created it through corruption. Life as a cosmological force would've been nothing more than a biological weapon. Would've made one of the Elune puzzle pieces fit together because it would mean that she owes her entire existence to the Void, hence being an "upstart goddess."
I guess I'm just looking for a silver lining in the Void. I'm trying to see their purpose beyond being just another Big Bad. There must've been a good reason for the First Ones to set up all these Zereths and give the void an equal seat at the cosmological table despite the fact that all it ever does is consume and destroy.
@pirojfmifhghek566 Let me guess you think every single Marvel movie villain had a point.
@@galten7361 I'm just trying to feel out the narrative and guess what the writers/devs were trying to do with the lore. This concept made some sense when combining some of the hints along the way. The First Ones seemed to place a lot of value on the evil and destructive cosmological forces. If they were powerful enough to remake reality, why didn't they just bottle them up or un-make them? They were likely responsible for creating the first Titans, too. And Blizzard's shown us that they can be pretty evil in their pursuit of Order. Plus, there's that hanging thread about Elune being an upstart goddess. Still trying to figure out what that means in the new context.
@@galten7361 Let me guess, you are a fan of LoTR
@@MateoArriza New Star Wars/MCU/BBC Sherlock/Game of Thrones/other show that le subverts expectations or is praised by redditors/tumblr/twitter/select women advocate found.
Actually I believe the old gods did give the curse/gift of flesh but Azeroth gave the earthen free will it never stated by the titan disc records that the curse came from Azeroth that those earthen only turned into diamonds like magni was and then chose to rebel.
Amanozako, the Goddess of Rebellion :P
Wonder at that point if the old gods were original inhabitants and simply distroted by the Titan's meddling with Azeroth and by that more extreme and extremely aggressive against anything TItan related - what would be pretty much the majority of mortal life on Azeroth directly or indirectly via the Well of Eternity (what overall is pretty much another Titan creation...).
By the way: The nightelves started to worship Elune as the goddess "slumbered within the fount's depth during daylight hours", so Elune = coming fom the well of eternity = something that was created by the Titan's corruption of Azeroth so maybe a "Titanized" fragment of Azeroth?
@miriamweller812 Do you think the MCU/BBC/Whatever else tumblr/reddit/twitter is into is high art.
It makes me wonder how Azeroth would look if the curse of flesh never happened but Azeroth still installed free will into titan constructs. would there still be a civilization but just of free-willed titan constructs? I guess most of the other races would still be there, Trolls, Taurens, Night elves and many other races do not strictly come from the Titans but are a result of Titans experimenting with life.
Now I wonder if Blizzard would want to make short what if stories.
More like under new management
Circe. Look into her myth, and her children. One whos name is very similar to the world that was killed by a dark titan
You know what that ain’t a bad possible plot.
Maybe they captured fragments of that world soul and some how used Azeroth as a donor for it to allow it to grow along side Azeroth or perhaps infusing Azeroth with it.
This could explain the whole elune thing a bit maybe? We don’t exactly know what Elune is aside from being a sister to the winter queen.
WTF Azeroth?! *spits on ground*
A guy just paid 90$ for the new mount then licked your spit up :O
It doesn't say any of that on the Wiki
Azeroth wants our money thats all. For that reason she tends to forget the plot.
Azeroth herself creating free will for slaves and subverting the old gods curse of flesh I ’s better lore, but only if there is more for it.
It never made much sense that good races like humans and dwarves are a pure result of old god corruption and end up being the ones fighting old gods, also we are told Azeroth influenced and controlled the development of all races on it including humans and dwarves who started off as Titan forged. We just weren’t detailed how and it makes sense. Likes of trolls may be entirely Azeroth’s creation with elves being an Elune assisted extra development or there is more to that too. But old god creations and corruptions don’t end as humans they become grotesque masses of flesh, and Ukdiar explains why the Titan keepers and machines didn’t go into over drive to kill all flesh if the curse of flesh was fatal flaw or total old god control - the implication was always Azeroth was invoolved and it isn’t new. It is just expanding existing lore now with more developments
@jonathangooding5020 1. The Humies and Dwarves and Gnomes were never just Old God spawns. All the way back in WC3 the idea was that the Titans made or spawned the Titanforged (who had no ties to the Light or Earthmother or dragons or any other divinities on Azeroth besides the Titans) with the Curse of Flesh turning them into beings of flesh.
2. The Titans in actual canon rather than post-Shadowlands fanon backed by retcons were not robo Nazis purging the fleshy and chaos untermenschen. Even all the way back in WC3 the Titans had no issue using Arcane (which was tied to the Nether rather than order magic) when setting up Azeroth while still opposing demons like the Eredar (pre-retcon Eredar). Them not just scrapping the Titanforged post-Curse of Flesh but rather incorporating them into their vision of Azeroth is well in character with how they were in WC3 and does not require retcons.
The titans are seen as invasive and controlling against Azeroth, but they also saved Azeroth from the Old Gods. Could Azeroth have saved herself and repelled their influence? Otherwise, the titans helped her and they should be thanked instead of being seen just as poorly as the OGs.
You do get that the Titans are the ones telling you, that they saved Azeroth.
That's like asking 1940th germans if they are the bad guys or "save the world from the evil subhumans". Guess what they will tell you...
@@miriamweller812 Do you think Marvel movies saying "Well actually the villain had a point" is top notch writing?
@@miriamweller812 bruh....without the Titans, the Old Gods would still rule Azeroth.
They did in fact save Azeroth from the Old Gods and destroyed the Black Empire.
Weird the people who killed and pillaged wrote history. You must believe everything people say 🤔
this is the very reason why WoW lore died after WotLK,,,, Blizzard Activision really ran the lore into the ground and is still stonping on its long dead corpse.
Why to change established lore which was good? WTF
It's not changed, child. You likely got no clue of it.
@@miriamweller812 New Star Wars doesn't have great writing. Neither does BBC Sherlock.
@@miriamweller812 You sound so cringe here.
It has changed.
@@TheMarquisLovenorn Even Designer Dave (a developer who worked on the franchise alongside Metzen since the RTS games up to TBC) called out much of the lore for all the retcons and said that said retcons overall make it so that it's not a credible setting.
Oh joy, another lore retcon
Holy f....thats so dumb :D Not you Doron btw.
My fucking god every time I think about go back to WoW there's another unnecessary retcon to the lore, and all just for that stupid Denuser's fanfic to make sense
/spit
this is so lame
more retcons yaaaay
That's not retcon, child. Learn what the words means you throw around, else you look stupid.
Bro we known this for years
I was a huge fan of WoW and Blizzard up until Cata. They have really run the lore into the ground, and it is obvious that they have deviated away from and retconned a lot of the original lore that Metzen had sketched out for the game. WoW will always be Classic, TBC and Wrath. Everything beyond that is trash, IMHO.
Tell me you didn't play Legion, without telling me you didn't play Legion lmfao
Dude Legion was the peak of lore, gameplay, and storytelling in WoW. And that was ALL Metzen OG lore.
@@monkeysk8er33 Legion had meh at best plotting with lore that makes past events even more ridiculous (see the Burning Legion having full fleets of spaceships that they somehow never used well in past invasions).
@galten7361 Yeah cause finally confronting the Legion on their own home turf, freeing/meeting the Titans, and Sargeras stabbing the fucking planet is "meh." Dude, you definitely don't know the Legion lore lol nobody can see all that and say "oh that was boring and not Metzen quality lore." I can't take you seriously at all
@@monkeysk8er33 Do you think the MCU is high art?
@galten7361 Some of it, like Endgame and Infinity War. But most of it is whatever